October 1, 2025 • 38 mins
This week marks a special moment on She Pivots—it’s our season finale, and Emily is joined by the incomparable Paloma Faith. On this episode, Paloma opens up about her boldest reinvention yet: pivoting from chart-topping singer and actress to author of her raw and bestselling memoir, MILF: Motherhood, Identity, Love and Fckery*. With her trademark candor and wit, Paloma shares the unfiltered realities of IVF, miscarriages, postpartum depression, fractured relationships, and the messy, complicated truths of motherhood and womanhood that are too often left unsaid. She reminds us that embracing imperfection is not only liberating but essential—and that every reinvention can be an expansion of who we are.
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She Pivots was created by host Emily Tisch Sussman to highlight women, their stories, and how their pivot became their success. To learn more about Paloma, follow us on Instagram @ShePivotsThePodcast or visit shepivotsthepodcast.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to She Pivots and I'm Paloma Faith.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome back to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk
with women who dare to pivot out of one career
and into something new and explore how their personal lives
impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. This
(00:34):
week marks a special moment here on She Pivots that
first season finale, and I can't think of a better
guest to close this chapter with and someone who embodies reinvention,
honesty and creative fearlessness Paloma Faith. So you may know
Paloma as the chart topping singer with a voice that's
both soulful and unmistakably her own, or for her fiery
(00:54):
appearances on The Voice and Beyond, But like so many
of the women we feature on the show, Paloma has
never been defined by just one lane. Her latest pivot
is perhaps her most personal yet. Paloma recently released a
best selling memoir called MILF Motherhood, Identity, Love and Fuckery,
and in it she does something that so many of
(01:15):
us mothers need. She tears down the glossy, filtered images
of motherhood and tells the truth about IVF and miscarriages,
about the realities of postpartum depression, about sleepless nights, fractured relationships,
and the identity shifts that come when you become a mother.
She does it with the same boldness, wit, and vulnerability
that has always defined her artistry. In this episode, Paloma
(01:38):
reminds us that motherhood, and really womanhood, is messy and
complicated and fine and painful and beautiful all at once.
She invites us to reject the impossible ideal of the
supermom and instead embrace the imperfections that make us whole.
I'm so happy we're ending this season with Paloma. Her
pivot is what this season, and really what the show.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Is all about.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Her pivot into authorship is a departure from her former
self and career. It's an expansion of it. So for
our season finale, I am the old to welcome Paloma Faith.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
My name's Poloma Faith and I am a singer, actress,
and writer.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
So we'll back up.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
We'll go back to the beginning. Little Paloma, tell us
about your family. Tell us about where you grew up, Like,
what was your sort of daily routine as a kid.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I grew up in London in Hackney, which is
kind of like an equivalent of New York's Brooklyn, like
a kind of poor area that ended up being gentrified,
and the artist moved in and I was schooled there.
My parents' divorced when I was two, and I used
(02:50):
to have to visit my dad on weekends. But I
was raised predominantly by my mum, and I didn't have
any siblings until my dad had two kids with another lady.
And then I went to normal like non private, non
paid for school in the UK my whole life. And
(03:11):
my mum was yeah, I said. My mom was a
single mom. She worked in a primary school, teaching little
kids from age five to about seven, and yeah, I
was schooled in that way. It was rough, It was diverse,
and it was full of culture and full of different
types of music, different types of people, different religions. It was,
(03:34):
in my view, the melting pot and an ideology that
lots of people say that politically is impossible, but I
don't agree because I grew up in it, and I'm
really proud of that. I'm proud of like the cultural mix.
My father's Spanish, my dad's English, and my stepfather's Chinese,
(03:55):
so I have quite like a diverse thing. And my
children that I now have are for Algerian, so I
have like a huge melting pot type vibe. I've always
been creative. I've always felt an outsider, and I was
always quite a shy child, and then I became quite
outspoken and vivacious, kind of like later in life. I
(04:19):
was always creative, but I was quite introverted, and I
was introspective, and I think because I was an only child,
maybe I had to spend a lot of time by
myself and make my own bun. So I always felt
kind of displaced. There was no real community that felt
fully me because I was always a mixture of so
(04:39):
many things.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Paloma embraced it all, leaning into all types of creativity
and eventually she waned, I'm going to study.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Dance, so I went to Originally I went to dance
school when I was eighteen to train to be a
contemporary dancer. And it was hell. It was really bad.
It didn't suit me because it was all about conforming
to these teachers like the discipline of their like they
only entersized technique, and it was all about doing like
(05:12):
Martha Graham technique, which is amazing, But I felt like
it didn't really appeal to my creativity. And then I
went to do a master's degree in time based art,
and I learned about directing and designing the theater, and
I was kind of always juggling a lot of things
and it created lots of opportunities for me. But I
(05:32):
was already acting before I became a musician, and I
was already making lots of different types of art at
the time, I just didn't quite know what genre. But actually,
when I did my master's my course leader he said
to me, what's important is the message of what you
want to say, not the medium, which I found really liberating.
(05:55):
So I've always just done lots of things and been
part of lots of different types of practice. And I
think that when you're a creative, when you're an artist,
you tend to have to do that at the beginning
because it's such a low income way to exist that
you need to be able to do anything. If someone
says like you, can can you sing, you go yeah?
(06:15):
Can you act? Yeah? Can you take pictures? Yeah? I'll
just do anything to pay the rent. But then after
my master's I just was just working in bars and
in retail while I was figuring out what was doing,
and I was singing sometimes in cabaret, and then that's
kind of when I got discovered to be also a singer.
(06:36):
People heard my voice and were like, you're really good,
but I didn't think I was, so I didn't. I
would always be like, what are you talking about? And
then it kind of yeah. It was actually just a
chance encounter when I was working in a lingerie shop
called Asian Provocateur, the original store, where a PR person
came in and she asked me what else I did
(06:58):
and I was like, oh, music, and she said you
want to meet the head of Virgin Music and I
was like yeah, and then I went and he told
me that my voice was average, that I had no songs,
but that he liked my personality. So I told him
that he was. I swore at him. I used a
(07:19):
word beginning to see which English people like, and he
ended up helping me meet loads of people because he
liked the fact that I spoke to him like that.
He thought I had a good attitude to be a
musician and he was like, yeah, I like you. You're punky.
So then that's how that started. Well.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Paloma began to explore the beginnings of her music career.
Her personal life also took a turn when she was
handed in immense responsibility.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
And when I was twenty six, a series of circumstances
with my father being quite terrible and irresponsible and the
woman that he had his other children with being a
bit of a mess, I ended up becoming my middle
sister's legal guardian. I was twenty six, and to avoid
(08:10):
her going into the care home system, I had her
come and live with me, and she was around sixteen,
and legally in the UK, you get taken into the
care system and then when you're eighteen you can leave it.
So for two years I was struggling already and I
didn't even have an apartment. I was kind of counsurfing,
(08:32):
not having any income really, and I turned it all
around really quickly because I didn't want her to go
into the care system, so I had a lot of responsibility.
Suddenly I kind of inherited a teenager and I just
became super responsible and super focused and ambitious, and then
(08:53):
I wasn't thinking about what it would lead to. I
was literally just thinking about affording our lives, both two
rents for two rooms in an apartment, and just like food.
Basically at that point in my life, I was just
trying to make the rent. In the early days, I
would be doing cabarets, I'd be writing songs, I would
(09:16):
be writing poetry. I'd be doing performance art pieces. I
would be leafleting and flying for club nights for money,
fly posting, running my own club night, which was monthly.
I would do some acting work, like in advertisements or
little bits in small TV appearances and stuff. I was
(09:39):
magicians assisting. I was just like doing anything that anybody said,
do you want to do this? I would just say yes.
And I also worked in the lingerie shop, and they
were really nice to me because like quite often things
would come in and I'd say I can't work for
two weeks, and they'd just kind of I saw me.
(10:00):
The manager would lie and say that I was ill
or not there or there, but I wasn't. And sometimes
if they'd pay anywhere, like it was literally like everyone
was just so nice and so supportive because they knew
that I wasn't just a waste, that I was like
doing it because I had support my teenage sister.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And around this time, I want to make sure that
we weave in like the personal and professional as roaring through.
So I'm not sure entirely of the timeline, but around
this time, on the personal side, you had an abortion
in there, which I think is an important story for
us to talk about, because really the most of the
stories I get attention are these like very extreme ones
(10:44):
or being put out from anti abortion people to show
that people regret the abortions, when in fact it's quite
common and normal and makes things possible. Did you feel
like that was true for you?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah. I mean when I became pregnant, I was twenty three.
I was living like a kind of warehouse that had
invested with mice full of artists, and it wasn't a
good situation. And the guy who I was pregnant by
I was an addict, and it didn't feel like a
good life. I didn't have money, I hadn't got anywhere
(11:17):
of my life, and I knew very early on that
I was pregnant. And yeah, and then I had an abortion,
which I really don't regret, and I don't think that
I would have achieved half of what I have if
i'd have kept that child. And I think that its
life wouldn't have been good because it would have had
(11:39):
a quite terrible father. And I mean, this is a
guy that eventually well and sold pictures of me to
the press when I became famous, like an opportunistic guy.
He's not decent and he did it for drug money,
like just awful. So yeah, I really think that was
an important thing that I did that I don't regret
(12:02):
at all. And I've actually been to the States before
and done like a tarot reading and because I was
killing some time, and this lady said to me in
the tarot reading, she said, there's an angry child contacting
you and they want you to know they're upset. And
I said, we'll tell them. They'd be a lot more
(12:23):
upset if I'd have given birth to them. I think
it was her just like pushing her views on me.
She was like English person. People are very loose about
orphin in Britain, so she's just like she probably guessed,
but yeah, I would say she wasn't a genuine psychic.
(12:43):
But yeah, that's how I feel about it. That's where
I stand on it, And particularly when we're talking about
so many circumstances where like children have been raped and
conceived babies and abused by family members and all kinds
of awful circumstance answers like mine's kind of a classic
case where you're like, oh, I'm too broke and I'm
(13:05):
too like I don't have a job and I'm too
irresponsible to give this child a good life. But I
know if I buy myself another decade, I'll be there.
And of course then I did, because I eventually had
two children by IVF. But I did have two children,
and I'm They're the best thing that's ever happened to me.
(13:26):
But I'm the mum. I want to be for them.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
As always, Paloma was unapologetically herself, and as her music
career began to take off, so did her public persona.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
For me, I think that strangely, my observation of it
was that it wasn't until I started to do speaking
appearances that my music took off. So at first people
were like, yeah, I think it's quite good. But then
when I was on TV being cheeky and challenging people
all the time, everyone loved it in the UK and
(14:01):
then I could feel the change and I used to
literally it was back before streaming. It was all physical
sales when I first started, but I would see myself
go from like number forty something in the charts to
literally like three or two overnight after I've been on
television so brilliant singer with George Michael had a chat
(14:25):
show would always be top of his wish list. That's right.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
You got to have thank for fake to date.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And as you know, I am not shy of an
awkward situation.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
No you direct, Yeah, so.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
You want me to tell you the story? That's what
we did on chat shows. No, it's funny way.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
The British public kind of loved it and it really
affected my reputation. And at the beginning of my career
as well, I wore some pretty crazy outfits and people
would like enjoy seeing what I was going to wear
to things and criticizing it and being like she's insane,
she looked terrible, and like it would just draw attention.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So when the music, when did it really take off?
Like when did it become the thing where you were like, oh, okay,
this is my career now.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, I didn't really believe that it was my career
until maybe three albums in because my mom and me
are always worried about the worst case scenario, so we
were always like, what am I going to do if
like I auditioned to be in Set to Slay after
my first album came out. My first album was number one, No,
it was number two in the UK charts, but I
(15:40):
still auditioned for seleg I was worried that I needed
a plan B and I got in, but then I
said no because my manager was like, you need to
do another album. So the music took off, and it
still feels sometimes like it's not quite what I'd imagined
because of my ambition. I feel like I haven't become
(16:01):
you know, I haven't got the global recognition that I
had at some point changed my view some point and
wanted and I had like number ones in Australia, and
I had some territories and I am kind of a
name now that people know internationally. But I just haven't
(16:22):
been able to tour internationally in the way that I
would like. So I still don't quite believe that it's
my career because I haven't really done everything that I
wanted to do with it. So I'm still going.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well, that's I mean, that's a big part of the
thesis of our show is how your version of success
changes over time, and the version of success can be
If I'm going to do this as a performer, I'm
going to be global, and then you design your life
backwards from that. But like that is still your version
of success. I mean a lot of people would look
at the success you have now and say, yes, that
(16:55):
is what I'm trying to get to, but it's so personal.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Well, I always to people that when you see the
ladder that you want to get up, you get to
the top of the ladder and then you just see
another five ladders, Like you think, at the top of
that ladder will peak, but you won't. You'll just see
another ladder. You get to the top of that one,
and you see another ladder, and then you just keep
getting to the top and you're like, great, but tomorrow
(17:19):
I need to start going on that ladder. So I
feel like that's what my life has felt like.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Even though you may not have felt quite like it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
What do you think would be the pivot point for
you where the struggling was behind you and you became successful.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Well, my first record deal that I signed was not
a great one. It was quite bad. So I was
living in rented accommodation well into three albums, and people
would it had a shared entrance and people would I
was famous, and people would walk into my apartment who
(17:59):
would who were visiting the apartment upstairs and take pictures
of all my clothes and my things and post them
on social media. Because it did take me quite a
long time, I think that I was successful before I
made any money, So I think it's important to differentiate
between the two. Like there was a moment where I
(18:20):
felt like I was being acknowledged for my creativity and
my art, which was after probably one album, But it
took me quite a lot of years to see any
income because the deal that I'd signed was not good.
It didn't work in my favor, and it wasn't until
I signed from album six and seven that I saw
(18:42):
a check that was life changing. And it was then
that I was able to buy my own house. And
then I had a child quickly after that. So that
was like my queue to say it's going to be fine.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
After the break, we dive into the trade offs below.
I had to make to become a mother as her
career was peaking and her tumultuous fertility journey that she
was experiencing behind closed doors.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
And then I had a child quickly after that. And
then so that was like my cue to say it's
going to be fine. But it felt strange because it
was almost like I waited. It felt very late to
have a child because it took so long to get
to a point where I felt like I wanted to
do that and be the mom I could be. And
(19:40):
then just as I was at kind of like the
peak where I was looking like I might have the
global success, I had number ones in multiple territories, I
was like making ways in different playess globally. And then
I was like, well, if I don't have a child, now,
I'm not going to have a child. So I did that,
(20:00):
and then I felt like that impacted my progress in
my work. But I do not for one second regret it,
because my kids are the most amazing thing that ever
happened to me and actually my biggest achievement, my biggest success.
But I feel like it's quite important to talk about
(20:21):
the kind of career and life span of a woman's
career when she's trying to have her children and have
a career, and it does impact us and it shouldn't.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Well that's right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I mean, the point at which people in any career,
whether it's the time that they put a lot of
time in to being an artist then for it to
take off, or if it's in an office, you've put
your time in and you're now going to a managerial
position that squarely lines up with the reproductive years.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
So yeah, I had like quite dramatic birth. I had
twenty one hours of labor, fourteen of which I was
trying to do a natural birth, but it couldn't because
she was premature anyway. So after fourteen hours, I did
take some drugs which stopped the pain of it, but
the baby was like everything. It was like spine to
(21:14):
spine breach, premature rupture of membranes, which meant I had
an infection. The baby was at this the heart rate
went down. It resulted after twenty one hours in the
emergency C section where I was projectile vomiting. Because we're
the contrary to popular belief, because I'm in music, I'm
(21:35):
like one of the only people in music. He's never
tried a drug in my life because my dad's got
issues with addiction. So I just was always like, I know,
I think I've got the gene, I don't want it,
so I just am a workaholic instead. But because of that.
I find drugs really difficult. Even like in the hospital,
I was like, I hate my body hates it. So
(21:55):
I was really sick. And then we said in the
hospital for a week thinks kind of. No, it was
two weeks. It's normally a day in the UK. So
it was two weeks in the hospital because we were
both quite ill and then we're both at risk and
all kinds of things, and it was quite dramatic. And
(22:16):
then what was left behind was this scar, which meant
that my uterist was like a bit toxic after that,
which is really hot. That's why my books called mel Well.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
You've said that giving birth is the closest that will
be to death until we actually die. I mean it
sounds like that was very true in your case, like
actually close.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I did feel close to death. And then I think
that I didn't realize that I had really severe postpartum
depression until it went because I'm like a get on
with it type of person. I just didn't realize that
I was mentally unwell. And I think that was for
a long time and I did lots of things like
(22:59):
I was still work and I think I had it
with both my children less so the second one because
I was mentally prepared for it. And I also went
back to work quicker after my second baby because I
knew that made me feel better. When I've gone back
to work, I felt better. So I went back to
work with the second one a lot faster, and I
think it helps my mental health.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think it's important to acknowledge when there is postpartum depression,
and I think that we often overly generally use the
term when I actually find it rational to be depressed.
But it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It's like it's a response to something that's happening. So
I agree with you, Yeah, it's rational, it's not irrational,
and there's a lot of self blame with it, like,
oh I had depression. I feel bad, but it was
that because it is life changing and it's crazy. And yeah,
and my book that I have out is called Milk
(23:56):
is basically quite a lot of stuff about that as well.
Because when I actually had my children, I felt like
there was a lot of publications, a lot of writing
about the babies, like how do we look after the babies?
How do we think about the babies? And there wasn't
enough for me to read about how to think about
myself and how it affects me and my own identity
(24:19):
as a woman, because I've experienced so many things. I've
experienced feeling like I wouldn't have children because of fertility,
and then having children and how that impacts my career
and also now I'm a single parent, and that's all
in my book, so I discuss all of that.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
One of the things that you wrote in the book
that I really connected with was about how actually disconnected
you felt from the babies and how it's often very boring.
I mean, that was something that I felt so much
shame about that I couldn't acknowledge it until, Like I
really wasn't very interested in my kids until they hit two,
because then they could talk back, they were interesting, they
(24:59):
had their own p personalities. Everything before that I felt
like was basically a burden and I didn't feel a
response back. And only once the last of my three
kids hit two I felt comfortable saying that because otherwise
I didn't know that I could say out loud that
I didn't feel connected to my kids as babies, and
then like look a person in the eye after they
had I felt like they would be judging me too hard.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But I agree, like I was expecting that to look
at the babies when they were born and be like,
oh my god, I'm in love with you. But I
was like, who are you like? They never they didn't
look like what I think they'd looked like, and I
was like, who are he's this person? And yeah, I agree,
But I think that's what my book's about, is that
(25:43):
you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
When we come back, we talk about another difficult decision
for Paloma, when she and her partner separated, and the
comments and judgments she still feels from society, and how
she explores those themes in her book, Milk Stay Tuned.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I think that's what my book's about, is that you're
damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Well, I think you set this up very well in
your book to talk about you know, you're kind of
damned if you do, damned if you don't, and that
that also played into your relationship with your partner.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
There were just different expectations.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Well, I personally think your damn if you do, damned
as you don't. But if you care, if you analyze
the way you parent, then you're a good parent basically,
like you're going to make mistakes. But if you're like, oh,
maybe I made a mistake, then you're a good parent.
If you're just like, yeah, I'm amazing, Like they'll say, well,
they can get you're probably not a great parent. But like,
(26:51):
but like with the dads, they don't sit there and
think did I make a mistake? Did I do this?
They don't lay in bed at night thinking did I
ordered uniform? Did I buy their favorite ice lolly? Did
I like just laying in bed, like what's the emotional
impact of the fact that I said this to them earlier?
Like oh my god, they're going to bring that up
(27:13):
in therapy whatever it is. It's like women lay and
do that. I don't understand why men don't. And then
when they do very little, everyone says how lucky that
you are, because it's like, oh, it's so nice that
people are Even now it's like I'm like I'm a
single mum and they're like, oh, do you have time off?
(27:34):
And it's like, well, yeah, he takes his kids two
nights a week, and they're like, oh, you're so lucky.
You're so lucky that you get that two nights a
week great. Actually, I have to say it is great
just for.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
The record, and actually sounds great.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
If anybody's out there dabbling with the idea of like,
I'm kind of annoyed with my husband, it's going to
be awful if we break up. That is one of
the perks. There are some terrible awful parts of it, loneliness, depression,
or everything lies with you. But those two nights a
week were absolute list. I couldn't stand it if I
(28:09):
had to do fifty to fifty childcare, like this kind
of neoliberal ideal of like, yeah, we share everything, don't
want it. I don't want that. Don't get me wrong
when I complain about how little he does. I'm pleased
because I want my kids with me as much as possible.
I think I'd be so miserable if I had to
(28:30):
do a week on a week off. I'd be devastated.
I couldn't do it, and I don't envy anybody who
has to go through that. And I've spoken to people
who do because the court said they did it, and
I just feel my heart goes out to them. But
I'm kind of lucky that my ex really is just
happy with two nights a week and then my and
they're brilliant nights. I get like either do nothing or
(28:53):
go out or whatever. It's great. But everyone's like, you're
so lucky that he's present in their life, Like commended
for presents right with both parents. Why are we plauding
that he doesn't pay child's support right?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
The bar is so incredibly low.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, they're like, oh, it's Ray showed off their party,
their birthday party that you organize, paid for and sent
the invites out for.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I mean, you are such an involved mom and you
know that you're a good parent, and the British press
has attacked you for being what you call a shit parent.
I mean everybody that digs anybody like whether you know,
if you hear somebody else say, whether it's in the
press or not, Like we're all I actually think we
have kids the same age, we're about the same age.
(29:42):
I think that our cohort of moms did come up
during this period of like this is the perfect thing
you can do to have the perfect.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Way to have your kids, and it was like it
was too much.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, the thing is, it's cultural. So in the States,
my observation is that when people come from nothing and
then make something of themselves. It's clite celebrated and people
are you know, whereas in Britain we like to resent
people who get out of poverty. We like to resent
people who should have been in the slums like us,
(30:12):
and they did it, so we want to bring them down.
In the press, we want to tear it apart. So
there's not a lot they can go on with me.
And what it started with was the fact that I'd
said I didn't agree with gender specific toys, which then
snowballed in the press. Is me saying I'm parenting my
children gender neutral, which actually is fine if anyone wants
(30:37):
to do it. And so because it wasn't what I
was doing, but because I was protective of people that were,
I kind of stood up for it. And then I
was like, so what if I am even though I wasn't,
But I was just like, I was like, I'm a
person for the LGBTQ plus community, so what if I'm
bringing them up as they them? And basically I started
(31:00):
arguing that point even though I had just called them
she and then just I regularly talk to them about
if they ever want me to change it, I'm down,
which is true, but I just do it because that's
what they are today. That doesn't mean that they will
be there in ten, twenty years or whatever. I don't
know why this is a controversial opinion, but I tend
(31:23):
to like commit to loving my child for whoever they
are from birth to whoever they want to be, which
is essentially good parenting. But I was told as a
child abuser by many people because of it, and it
was literally me just backing the way I was raised,
which was that my arm was like, there's no gender toys.
(31:43):
Like I mean, I've thought every little boy I ever
knew a mini little hoover as a present because I'm like,
no one wants a guy sitting on the sofa, so
start hoovering now, because we don't want those type of boyfriends.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
No, I'm doing everyone I'm doing I.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Think the society and like I was raised playing. You know,
I have Mecano, I have construction toys. I had Lego,
I had doctor's kids, I had you know, lots of
things most kids should. But we also need to make
sure that little boys are holding baby dolls and little
girls are given science kits. That's my argument totally.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I mean that I feel like we've done a pretty
decent job of showing girls that they can have options
and the range of options. I actually think we haven't
done a good enough job of showing boys that they
can have options, and those options can be things like
sensitivity can be like access to their full range of emotions.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Or like I want to grow up and work with children.
That's my ambition, right Like, I rarely hear little boys say.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
That to me.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Right Like, I feel like it's doing boys a disservice
to not be able to access their full range of
potential if we're not showing them examples of it and
not giving them up options for things like giving them
a hoover or you know, say they want to work
with children, or also acknowledging that they might be sensitive
or sad or you know, upset about something that they
can't access that emotion like they have to be able
(33:14):
to Can you tell us something. It can be something
we've discussed or something different, but something that at the
time you saw it as a real low point, like
you thought, oh God, I'm never goinging out of this,
and now, in hindsight, you see it as having really
set you up for the success that you are now.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So many of them. Like I think, with experience, you
realize that time is always moving and that's the beauty
of it. So everything's impermanent. Even your greatest moments will
be impermanent just as much as your worst moments. So
sometimes you have to really take stock and like save
for those great moments as well, because they'll be fleeting too.
(33:53):
But I feel like I really hit bottom when I
broke up with my children's dad. I felt like I've
failed my kids. I felt like we wouldn't be happy
again because I was really low for a long time
and I wrote an album about it, called The Glorification
of Sadness, which I also felt. I didn't know how
I could write music again after that, because I felt
(34:16):
like that was it, Like I would never feel as
much as I did in that circumstance. But I have
started writing music again, and I wrote at that time
when I was When I looked back on it, I
really bonded with my children. I kept them so close,
and I think our relationship specter as a result. And
I wrote a book and I wrote this album, and
(34:39):
I also did some acting bits, and like I can't
believe because I was in a fuzz and a haze.
What I actually managed to do was probably it kind
of birthed a version of me that's much more confident
to try lots of things. I don't think i'd have
a podcast if i'd not done that. I feel like
(35:00):
I've lost my inhibit I never really was inhibited, but
I feel like I'm even worse now, Like I'm totally
prepped and ready to become a very gassy older lady
and I don't care, and I'm pleased with the person
I am today because of it, And I think I
can feel that my children are happier as a result,
(35:22):
because sometimes I think all they need is us to
be happy, and they're happy, and it really like projects
onto them. So I don't regret it anymore. But for
a while I felt like it was maybe a mistake
and that I should have sat in my sadness for
their sake. But now I don't feel like that. I
feel that they're really happy and everything feels good because
(35:47):
I'm really happy.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Do you think you'll pivot again?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I think it constantly happens in life, like I look
back and they'll be I would have answered that question
differently ten years ago and i'd have said my word
bottom was that I thought my mum was going to
die because she had cancer. It's true, but then she survived,
and then loads of great things happened after that, and
I had a great career and all of those things.
(36:11):
But like it depends, like you're only what you've experienced.
But I do think that I appreciate the sad times
as much as the good good times because they inform
my creativity.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, so thank you so much, Paloma. I've so enjoyed
having you on.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Thank you, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you, and
thanks for giving me so much space to speak.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Paloma lives in the UK with her two beautiful children
and is still creating and making the world a brighter
and better place. Be sure to follow her on Instagram
at Paloma Faith stay up to date with all her
latest happenings. I can't believe we are already at the
end of yet another season.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
But don't worry, we'll be back soon with more amazing stories.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
In fact, if you know anyone who has made a
personal or professional pivot, send us a DM or submit
them on our website. We're just taking a short break
and we'll be back with more inspiring stories soon. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at she pivots the
Podcast and sign up for our newsletter to stay up
to date on all the latest happenings.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I
hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us
a rating and tell your friends about us. To learn
more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she
pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter, where
you can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our
website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was
(37:48):
produced and edited by Emily Atavelosik, with sound editing and
mixing from Nina Pollock, Audio production and social media by
Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and planning
by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is proud
to be a part of the iHeart Podcast Network.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
I endorse he Pivots.
Welcome back to She Pivots and I'm Paloma Faith.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome back to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk
with women who dare to pivot out of one career
and into something new and explore how their personal lives
impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. This
(00:34):
week marks a special moment here on She Pivots that
first season finale, and I can't think of a better
guest to close this chapter with and someone who embodies reinvention,
honesty and creative fearlessness Paloma Faith. So you may know
Paloma as the chart topping singer with a voice that's
both soulful and unmistakably her own, or for her fiery
(00:54):
appearances on The Voice and Beyond, But like so many
of the women we feature on the show, Paloma has
never been defined by just one lane. Her latest pivot
is perhaps her most personal yet. Paloma recently released a
best selling memoir called MILF Motherhood, Identity, Love and Fuckery,
and in it she does something that so many of
(01:15):
us mothers need. She tears down the glossy, filtered images
of motherhood and tells the truth about IVF and miscarriages,
about the realities of postpartum depression, about sleepless nights, fractured relationships,
and the identity shifts that come when you become a mother.
She does it with the same boldness, wit, and vulnerability
that has always defined her artistry. In this episode, Paloma
(01:38):
reminds us that motherhood, and really womanhood, is messy and
complicated and fine and painful and beautiful all at once.
She invites us to reject the impossible ideal of the
supermom and instead embrace the imperfections that make us whole.
I'm so happy we're ending this season with Paloma. Her
pivot is what this season, and really what the show.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Is all about.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Her pivot into authorship is a departure from her former
self and career. It's an expansion of it. So for
our season finale, I am the old to welcome Paloma Faith.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
My name's Poloma Faith and I am a singer, actress,
and writer.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
So we'll back up.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
We'll go back to the beginning. Little Paloma, tell us
about your family. Tell us about where you grew up, Like,
what was your sort of daily routine as a kid.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I grew up in London in Hackney, which is
kind of like an equivalent of New York's Brooklyn, like
a kind of poor area that ended up being gentrified,
and the artist moved in and I was schooled there.
My parents' divorced when I was two, and I used
(02:50):
to have to visit my dad on weekends. But I
was raised predominantly by my mum, and I didn't have
any siblings until my dad had two kids with another lady.
And then I went to normal like non private, non
paid for school in the UK my whole life. And
(03:11):
my mum was yeah, I said. My mom was a
single mom. She worked in a primary school, teaching little
kids from age five to about seven, and yeah, I
was schooled in that way. It was rough, It was diverse,
and it was full of culture and full of different
types of music, different types of people, different religions. It was,
(03:34):
in my view, the melting pot and an ideology that
lots of people say that politically is impossible, but I
don't agree because I grew up in it, and I'm
really proud of that. I'm proud of like the cultural mix.
My father's Spanish, my dad's English, and my stepfather's Chinese,
(03:55):
so I have quite like a diverse thing. And my
children that I now have are for Algerian, so I
have like a huge melting pot type vibe. I've always
been creative. I've always felt an outsider, and I was
always quite a shy child, and then I became quite
outspoken and vivacious, kind of like later in life. I
(04:19):
was always creative, but I was quite introverted, and I
was introspective, and I think because I was an only child,
maybe I had to spend a lot of time by
myself and make my own bun. So I always felt
kind of displaced. There was no real community that felt
fully me because I was always a mixture of so
(04:39):
many things.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Paloma embraced it all, leaning into all types of creativity
and eventually she waned, I'm going to study.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Dance, so I went to Originally I went to dance
school when I was eighteen to train to be a
contemporary dancer. And it was hell. It was really bad.
It didn't suit me because it was all about conforming
to these teachers like the discipline of their like they
only entersized technique, and it was all about doing like
(05:12):
Martha Graham technique, which is amazing, But I felt like
it didn't really appeal to my creativity. And then I
went to do a master's degree in time based art,
and I learned about directing and designing the theater, and
I was kind of always juggling a lot of things
and it created lots of opportunities for me. But I
(05:32):
was already acting before I became a musician, and I
was already making lots of different types of art at
the time, I just didn't quite know what genre. But actually,
when I did my master's my course leader he said
to me, what's important is the message of what you
want to say, not the medium, which I found really liberating.
(05:55):
So I've always just done lots of things and been
part of lots of different types of practice. And I
think that when you're a creative, when you're an artist,
you tend to have to do that at the beginning
because it's such a low income way to exist that
you need to be able to do anything. If someone
says like you, can can you sing, you go yeah?
(06:15):
Can you act? Yeah? Can you take pictures? Yeah? I'll
just do anything to pay the rent. But then after
my master's I just was just working in bars and
in retail while I was figuring out what was doing,
and I was singing sometimes in cabaret, and then that's
kind of when I got discovered to be also a singer.
(06:36):
People heard my voice and were like, you're really good,
but I didn't think I was, so I didn't. I
would always be like, what are you talking about? And
then it kind of yeah. It was actually just a
chance encounter when I was working in a lingerie shop
called Asian Provocateur, the original store, where a PR person
came in and she asked me what else I did
(06:58):
and I was like, oh, music, and she said you
want to meet the head of Virgin Music and I
was like yeah, and then I went and he told
me that my voice was average, that I had no songs,
but that he liked my personality. So I told him
that he was. I swore at him. I used a
(07:19):
word beginning to see which English people like, and he
ended up helping me meet loads of people because he
liked the fact that I spoke to him like that.
He thought I had a good attitude to be a
musician and he was like, yeah, I like you. You're punky.
So then that's how that started. Well.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Paloma began to explore the beginnings of her music career.
Her personal life also took a turn when she was
handed in immense responsibility.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
And when I was twenty six, a series of circumstances
with my father being quite terrible and irresponsible and the
woman that he had his other children with being a
bit of a mess, I ended up becoming my middle
sister's legal guardian. I was twenty six, and to avoid
(08:10):
her going into the care home system, I had her
come and live with me, and she was around sixteen,
and legally in the UK, you get taken into the
care system and then when you're eighteen you can leave it.
So for two years I was struggling already and I
didn't even have an apartment. I was kind of counsurfing,
(08:32):
not having any income really, and I turned it all
around really quickly because I didn't want her to go
into the care system, so I had a lot of responsibility.
Suddenly I kind of inherited a teenager and I just
became super responsible and super focused and ambitious, and then
(08:53):
I wasn't thinking about what it would lead to. I
was literally just thinking about affording our lives, both two
rents for two rooms in an apartment, and just like food.
Basically at that point in my life, I was just
trying to make the rent. In the early days, I
would be doing cabarets, I'd be writing songs, I would
(09:16):
be writing poetry. I'd be doing performance art pieces. I
would be leafleting and flying for club nights for money,
fly posting, running my own club night, which was monthly.
I would do some acting work, like in advertisements or
little bits in small TV appearances and stuff. I was
(09:39):
magicians assisting. I was just like doing anything that anybody said,
do you want to do this? I would just say yes.
And I also worked in the lingerie shop, and they
were really nice to me because like quite often things
would come in and I'd say I can't work for
two weeks, and they'd just kind of I saw me.
(10:00):
The manager would lie and say that I was ill
or not there or there, but I wasn't. And sometimes
if they'd pay anywhere, like it was literally like everyone
was just so nice and so supportive because they knew
that I wasn't just a waste, that I was like
doing it because I had support my teenage sister.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And around this time, I want to make sure that
we weave in like the personal and professional as roaring through.
So I'm not sure entirely of the timeline, but around
this time, on the personal side, you had an abortion
in there, which I think is an important story for
us to talk about, because really the most of the
stories I get attention are these like very extreme ones
(10:44):
or being put out from anti abortion people to show
that people regret the abortions, when in fact it's quite
common and normal and makes things possible. Did you feel
like that was true for you?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah. I mean when I became pregnant, I was twenty three.
I was living like a kind of warehouse that had
invested with mice full of artists, and it wasn't a
good situation. And the guy who I was pregnant by
I was an addict, and it didn't feel like a
good life. I didn't have money, I hadn't got anywhere
(11:17):
of my life, and I knew very early on that
I was pregnant. And yeah, and then I had an abortion,
which I really don't regret, and I don't think that
I would have achieved half of what I have if
i'd have kept that child. And I think that its
life wouldn't have been good because it would have had
(11:39):
a quite terrible father. And I mean, this is a
guy that eventually well and sold pictures of me to
the press when I became famous, like an opportunistic guy.
He's not decent and he did it for drug money,
like just awful. So yeah, I really think that was
an important thing that I did that I don't regret
(12:02):
at all. And I've actually been to the States before
and done like a tarot reading and because I was
killing some time, and this lady said to me in
the tarot reading, she said, there's an angry child contacting
you and they want you to know they're upset. And
I said, we'll tell them. They'd be a lot more
(12:23):
upset if I'd have given birth to them. I think
it was her just like pushing her views on me.
She was like English person. People are very loose about
orphin in Britain, so she's just like she probably guessed,
but yeah, I would say she wasn't a genuine psychic.
(12:43):
But yeah, that's how I feel about it. That's where
I stand on it, And particularly when we're talking about
so many circumstances where like children have been raped and
conceived babies and abused by family members and all kinds
of awful circumstance answers like mine's kind of a classic
case where you're like, oh, I'm too broke and I'm
(13:05):
too like I don't have a job and I'm too
irresponsible to give this child a good life. But I
know if I buy myself another decade, I'll be there.
And of course then I did, because I eventually had
two children by IVF. But I did have two children,
and I'm They're the best thing that's ever happened to me.
(13:26):
But I'm the mum. I want to be for them.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
As always, Paloma was unapologetically herself, and as her music
career began to take off, so did her public persona.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
For me, I think that strangely, my observation of it
was that it wasn't until I started to do speaking
appearances that my music took off. So at first people
were like, yeah, I think it's quite good. But then
when I was on TV being cheeky and challenging people
all the time, everyone loved it in the UK and
(14:01):
then I could feel the change and I used to
literally it was back before streaming. It was all physical
sales when I first started, but I would see myself
go from like number forty something in the charts to
literally like three or two overnight after I've been on
television so brilliant singer with George Michael had a chat
(14:25):
show would always be top of his wish list. That's right.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
You got to have thank for fake to date.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And as you know, I am not shy of an
awkward situation.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
No you direct, Yeah, so.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
You want me to tell you the story? That's what
we did on chat shows. No, it's funny way.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
The British public kind of loved it and it really
affected my reputation. And at the beginning of my career
as well, I wore some pretty crazy outfits and people
would like enjoy seeing what I was going to wear
to things and criticizing it and being like she's insane,
she looked terrible, and like it would just draw attention.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So when the music, when did it really take off?
Like when did it become the thing where you were like, oh, okay,
this is my career now.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, I didn't really believe that it was my career
until maybe three albums in because my mom and me
are always worried about the worst case scenario, so we
were always like, what am I going to do if
like I auditioned to be in Set to Slay after
my first album came out. My first album was number one, No,
it was number two in the UK charts, but I
(15:40):
still auditioned for seleg I was worried that I needed
a plan B and I got in, but then I
said no because my manager was like, you need to
do another album. So the music took off, and it
still feels sometimes like it's not quite what I'd imagined
because of my ambition. I feel like I haven't become
(16:01):
you know, I haven't got the global recognition that I
had at some point changed my view some point and
wanted and I had like number ones in Australia, and
I had some territories and I am kind of a
name now that people know internationally. But I just haven't
(16:22):
been able to tour internationally in the way that I
would like. So I still don't quite believe that it's
my career because I haven't really done everything that I
wanted to do with it. So I'm still going.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well, that's I mean, that's a big part of the
thesis of our show is how your version of success
changes over time, and the version of success can be
If I'm going to do this as a performer, I'm
going to be global, and then you design your life
backwards from that. But like that is still your version
of success. I mean a lot of people would look
at the success you have now and say, yes, that
(16:55):
is what I'm trying to get to, but it's so personal.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Well, I always to people that when you see the
ladder that you want to get up, you get to
the top of the ladder and then you just see
another five ladders, Like you think, at the top of
that ladder will peak, but you won't. You'll just see
another ladder. You get to the top of that one,
and you see another ladder, and then you just keep
getting to the top and you're like, great, but tomorrow
(17:19):
I need to start going on that ladder. So I
feel like that's what my life has felt like.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Even though you may not have felt quite like it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
What do you think would be the pivot point for
you where the struggling was behind you and you became successful.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Well, my first record deal that I signed was not
a great one. It was quite bad. So I was
living in rented accommodation well into three albums, and people
would it had a shared entrance and people would I
was famous, and people would walk into my apartment who
(17:59):
would who were visiting the apartment upstairs and take pictures
of all my clothes and my things and post them
on social media. Because it did take me quite a
long time, I think that I was successful before I
made any money, So I think it's important to differentiate
between the two. Like there was a moment where I
(18:20):
felt like I was being acknowledged for my creativity and
my art, which was after probably one album, But it
took me quite a lot of years to see any
income because the deal that I'd signed was not good.
It didn't work in my favor, and it wasn't until
I signed from album six and seven that I saw
(18:42):
a check that was life changing. And it was then
that I was able to buy my own house. And
then I had a child quickly after that. So that
was like my queue to say it's going to be fine.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
After the break, we dive into the trade offs below.
I had to make to become a mother as her
career was peaking and her tumultuous fertility journey that she
was experiencing behind closed doors.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
And then I had a child quickly after that. And
then so that was like my cue to say it's
going to be fine. But it felt strange because it
was almost like I waited. It felt very late to
have a child because it took so long to get
to a point where I felt like I wanted to
do that and be the mom I could be. And
(19:40):
then just as I was at kind of like the
peak where I was looking like I might have the
global success, I had number ones in multiple territories, I
was like making ways in different playess globally. And then
I was like, well, if I don't have a child, now,
I'm not going to have a child. So I did that,
(20:00):
and then I felt like that impacted my progress in
my work. But I do not for one second regret it,
because my kids are the most amazing thing that ever
happened to me and actually my biggest achievement, my biggest success.
But I feel like it's quite important to talk about
(20:21):
the kind of career and life span of a woman's
career when she's trying to have her children and have
a career, and it does impact us and it shouldn't.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Well that's right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I mean, the point at which people in any career,
whether it's the time that they put a lot of
time in to being an artist then for it to
take off, or if it's in an office, you've put
your time in and you're now going to a managerial
position that squarely lines up with the reproductive years.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
So yeah, I had like quite dramatic birth. I had
twenty one hours of labor, fourteen of which I was
trying to do a natural birth, but it couldn't because
she was premature anyway. So after fourteen hours, I did
take some drugs which stopped the pain of it, but
the baby was like everything. It was like spine to
(21:14):
spine breach, premature rupture of membranes, which meant I had
an infection. The baby was at this the heart rate
went down. It resulted after twenty one hours in the
emergency C section where I was projectile vomiting. Because we're
the contrary to popular belief, because I'm in music, I'm
(21:35):
like one of the only people in music. He's never
tried a drug in my life because my dad's got
issues with addiction. So I just was always like, I know,
I think I've got the gene, I don't want it,
so I just am a workaholic instead. But because of that.
I find drugs really difficult. Even like in the hospital,
I was like, I hate my body hates it. So
(21:55):
I was really sick. And then we said in the
hospital for a week thinks kind of. No, it was
two weeks. It's normally a day in the UK. So
it was two weeks in the hospital because we were
both quite ill and then we're both at risk and
all kinds of things, and it was quite dramatic. And
(22:16):
then what was left behind was this scar, which meant
that my uterist was like a bit toxic after that,
which is really hot. That's why my books called mel Well.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
You've said that giving birth is the closest that will
be to death until we actually die. I mean it
sounds like that was very true in your case, like
actually close.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I did feel close to death. And then I think
that I didn't realize that I had really severe postpartum
depression until it went because I'm like a get on
with it type of person. I just didn't realize that
I was mentally unwell. And I think that was for
a long time and I did lots of things like
(22:59):
I was still work and I think I had it
with both my children less so the second one because
I was mentally prepared for it. And I also went
back to work quicker after my second baby because I
knew that made me feel better. When I've gone back
to work, I felt better. So I went back to
work with the second one a lot faster, and I
think it helps my mental health.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think it's important to acknowledge when there is postpartum depression,
and I think that we often overly generally use the
term when I actually find it rational to be depressed.
But it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It's like it's a response to something that's happening. So
I agree with you, Yeah, it's rational, it's not irrational,
and there's a lot of self blame with it, like,
oh I had depression. I feel bad, but it was
that because it is life changing and it's crazy. And yeah,
and my book that I have out is called Milk
(23:56):
is basically quite a lot of stuff about that as well.
Because when I actually had my children, I felt like
there was a lot of publications, a lot of writing
about the babies, like how do we look after the babies?
How do we think about the babies? And there wasn't
enough for me to read about how to think about
myself and how it affects me and my own identity
(24:19):
as a woman, because I've experienced so many things. I've
experienced feeling like I wouldn't have children because of fertility,
and then having children and how that impacts my career
and also now I'm a single parent, and that's all
in my book, so I discuss all of that.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
One of the things that you wrote in the book
that I really connected with was about how actually disconnected
you felt from the babies and how it's often very boring.
I mean, that was something that I felt so much
shame about that I couldn't acknowledge it until, Like I
really wasn't very interested in my kids until they hit two,
because then they could talk back, they were interesting, they
(24:59):
had their own p personalities. Everything before that I felt
like was basically a burden and I didn't feel a
response back. And only once the last of my three
kids hit two I felt comfortable saying that because otherwise
I didn't know that I could say out loud that
I didn't feel connected to my kids as babies, and
then like look a person in the eye after they
had I felt like they would be judging me too hard.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But I agree, like I was expecting that to look
at the babies when they were born and be like,
oh my god, I'm in love with you. But I
was like, who are you like? They never they didn't
look like what I think they'd looked like, and I
was like, who are he's this person? And yeah, I agree,
But I think that's what my book's about, is that
(25:43):
you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
When we come back, we talk about another difficult decision
for Paloma, when she and her partner separated, and the
comments and judgments she still feels from society, and how
she explores those themes in her book, Milk Stay Tuned.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I think that's what my book's about, is that you're
damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Well, I think you set this up very well in
your book to talk about you know, you're kind of
damned if you do, damned if you don't, and that
that also played into your relationship with your partner.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
There were just different expectations.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Well, I personally think your damn if you do, damned
as you don't. But if you care, if you analyze
the way you parent, then you're a good parent basically,
like you're going to make mistakes. But if you're like, oh,
maybe I made a mistake, then you're a good parent.
If you're just like, yeah, I'm amazing, Like they'll say, well,
they can get you're probably not a great parent. But like,
(26:51):
but like with the dads, they don't sit there and
think did I make a mistake? Did I do this?
They don't lay in bed at night thinking did I
ordered uniform? Did I buy their favorite ice lolly? Did
I like just laying in bed, like what's the emotional
impact of the fact that I said this to them earlier?
Like oh my god, they're going to bring that up
(27:13):
in therapy whatever it is. It's like women lay and
do that. I don't understand why men don't. And then
when they do very little, everyone says how lucky that
you are, because it's like, oh, it's so nice that
people are Even now it's like I'm like I'm a
single mum and they're like, oh, do you have time off?
(27:34):
And it's like, well, yeah, he takes his kids two
nights a week, and they're like, oh, you're so lucky.
You're so lucky that you get that two nights a
week great. Actually, I have to say it is great
just for.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
The record, and actually sounds great.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
If anybody's out there dabbling with the idea of like,
I'm kind of annoyed with my husband, it's going to
be awful if we break up. That is one of
the perks. There are some terrible awful parts of it, loneliness, depression,
or everything lies with you. But those two nights a
week were absolute list. I couldn't stand it if I
(28:09):
had to do fifty to fifty childcare, like this kind
of neoliberal ideal of like, yeah, we share everything, don't
want it. I don't want that. Don't get me wrong
when I complain about how little he does. I'm pleased
because I want my kids with me as much as possible.
I think I'd be so miserable if I had to
(28:30):
do a week on a week off. I'd be devastated.
I couldn't do it, and I don't envy anybody who
has to go through that. And I've spoken to people
who do because the court said they did it, and
I just feel my heart goes out to them. But
I'm kind of lucky that my ex really is just
happy with two nights a week and then my and
they're brilliant nights. I get like either do nothing or
(28:53):
go out or whatever. It's great. But everyone's like, you're
so lucky that he's present in their life, Like commended
for presents right with both parents. Why are we plauding
that he doesn't pay child's support right?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
The bar is so incredibly low.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, they're like, oh, it's Ray showed off their party,
their birthday party that you organize, paid for and sent
the invites out for.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I mean, you are such an involved mom and you
know that you're a good parent, and the British press
has attacked you for being what you call a shit parent.
I mean everybody that digs anybody like whether you know,
if you hear somebody else say, whether it's in the
press or not, Like we're all I actually think we
have kids the same age, we're about the same age.
(29:42):
I think that our cohort of moms did come up
during this period of like this is the perfect thing
you can do to have the perfect.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Way to have your kids, and it was like it
was too much.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, the thing is, it's cultural. So in the States,
my observation is that when people come from nothing and
then make something of themselves. It's clite celebrated and people
are you know, whereas in Britain we like to resent
people who get out of poverty. We like to resent
people who should have been in the slums like us,
(30:12):
and they did it, so we want to bring them down.
In the press, we want to tear it apart. So
there's not a lot they can go on with me.
And what it started with was the fact that I'd
said I didn't agree with gender specific toys, which then
snowballed in the press. Is me saying I'm parenting my
children gender neutral, which actually is fine if anyone wants
(30:37):
to do it. And so because it wasn't what I
was doing, but because I was protective of people that were,
I kind of stood up for it. And then I
was like, so what if I am even though I wasn't,
But I was just like, I was like, I'm a
person for the LGBTQ plus community, so what if I'm
bringing them up as they them? And basically I started
(31:00):
arguing that point even though I had just called them
she and then just I regularly talk to them about
if they ever want me to change it, I'm down,
which is true, but I just do it because that's
what they are today. That doesn't mean that they will
be there in ten, twenty years or whatever. I don't
know why this is a controversial opinion, but I tend
(31:23):
to like commit to loving my child for whoever they
are from birth to whoever they want to be, which
is essentially good parenting. But I was told as a
child abuser by many people because of it, and it
was literally me just backing the way I was raised,
which was that my arm was like, there's no gender toys.
(31:43):
Like I mean, I've thought every little boy I ever
knew a mini little hoover as a present because I'm like,
no one wants a guy sitting on the sofa, so
start hoovering now, because we don't want those type of boyfriends.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
No, I'm doing everyone I'm doing I.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Think the society and like I was raised playing. You know,
I have Mecano, I have construction toys. I had Lego,
I had doctor's kids, I had you know, lots of
things most kids should. But we also need to make
sure that little boys are holding baby dolls and little
girls are given science kits. That's my argument totally.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I mean that I feel like we've done a pretty
decent job of showing girls that they can have options
and the range of options. I actually think we haven't
done a good enough job of showing boys that they
can have options, and those options can be things like
sensitivity can be like access to their full range of emotions.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Or like I want to grow up and work with children.
That's my ambition, right Like, I rarely hear little boys say.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
That to me.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Right Like, I feel like it's doing boys a disservice
to not be able to access their full range of
potential if we're not showing them examples of it and
not giving them up options for things like giving them
a hoover or you know, say they want to work
with children, or also acknowledging that they might be sensitive
or sad or you know, upset about something that they
can't access that emotion like they have to be able
(33:14):
to Can you tell us something. It can be something
we've discussed or something different, but something that at the
time you saw it as a real low point, like
you thought, oh God, I'm never goinging out of this,
and now, in hindsight, you see it as having really
set you up for the success that you are now.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So many of them. Like I think, with experience, you
realize that time is always moving and that's the beauty
of it. So everything's impermanent. Even your greatest moments will
be impermanent just as much as your worst moments. So
sometimes you have to really take stock and like save
for those great moments as well, because they'll be fleeting too.
(33:53):
But I feel like I really hit bottom when I
broke up with my children's dad. I felt like I've
failed my kids. I felt like we wouldn't be happy
again because I was really low for a long time
and I wrote an album about it, called The Glorification
of Sadness, which I also felt. I didn't know how
I could write music again after that, because I felt
(34:16):
like that was it, Like I would never feel as
much as I did in that circumstance. But I have
started writing music again, and I wrote at that time
when I was When I looked back on it, I
really bonded with my children. I kept them so close,
and I think our relationship specter as a result. And
I wrote a book and I wrote this album, and
(34:39):
I also did some acting bits, and like I can't
believe because I was in a fuzz and a haze.
What I actually managed to do was probably it kind
of birthed a version of me that's much more confident
to try lots of things. I don't think i'd have
a podcast if i'd not done that. I feel like
(35:00):
I've lost my inhibit I never really was inhibited, but
I feel like I'm even worse now, Like I'm totally
prepped and ready to become a very gassy older lady
and I don't care, and I'm pleased with the person
I am today because of it, And I think I
can feel that my children are happier as a result,
(35:22):
because sometimes I think all they need is us to
be happy, and they're happy, and it really like projects
onto them. So I don't regret it anymore. But for
a while I felt like it was maybe a mistake
and that I should have sat in my sadness for
their sake. But now I don't feel like that. I
feel that they're really happy and everything feels good because
(35:47):
I'm really happy.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Do you think you'll pivot again?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I think it constantly happens in life, like I look
back and they'll be I would have answered that question
differently ten years ago and i'd have said my word
bottom was that I thought my mum was going to
die because she had cancer. It's true, but then she survived,
and then loads of great things happened after that, and
I had a great career and all of those things.
(36:11):
But like it depends, like you're only what you've experienced.
But I do think that I appreciate the sad times
as much as the good good times because they inform
my creativity.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, so thank you so much, Paloma. I've so enjoyed
having you on.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Thank you, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you, and
thanks for giving me so much space to speak.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Paloma lives in the UK with her two beautiful children
and is still creating and making the world a brighter
and better place. Be sure to follow her on Instagram
at Paloma Faith stay up to date with all her
latest happenings. I can't believe we are already at the
end of yet another season.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
But don't worry, we'll be back soon with more amazing stories.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
In fact, if you know anyone who has made a
personal or professional pivot, send us a DM or submit
them on our website. We're just taking a short break
and we'll be back with more inspiring stories soon. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at she pivots the
Podcast and sign up for our newsletter to stay up
to date on all the latest happenings.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I
hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us
a rating and tell your friends about us. To learn
more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she
pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter, where
you can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our
website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was
(37:48):
produced and edited by Emily Atavelosik, with sound editing and
mixing from Nina Pollock, Audio production and social media by
Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and planning
by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is proud
to be a part of the iHeart Podcast Network.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
I endorse he Pivots.
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