July 23, 2025 • 43 mins
Chanel’s President of Arts, Culture & Heritage, Yana Peel, has carved out a singular career at the intersection of art, innovation, AI, and global community building — all driven by her belief in the power of creativity to shape culture and spark change. In this special live episode recorded at the Aspen Ideas Festival, Yana sits down with Emily for a conversation about her unexpected path from Goldman Sachs to cultural leadership across continents. She opens up about moving countries for family, launching a foundation from scratch, navigating the new world of AI, and finding purpose by “committing rather than complaining.” Yana shares how she helped transform Chanel’s approach to art, from funding global cultural institutions to launching artist-tech incubators and AI collaborations. She also reflects on the power of shared experiences, the evolving role of artists in polarized societies, and why she believes artistic intelligence is the future of innovation.
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She Pivots was created by host Emily Tisch Sussman to highlight women, their stories, and how their pivot became their success. To learn more about Yana, follow us on Instagram @ShePivotsThePodcast or visit shepivotsthepodcast.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emily Tisch Sussman (00:00):
Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Yan Appeal.
Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where we talk
with women who dare to pivot out of one career
and into something new and explore how their personal lives
(00:23):
impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. Today
we have another special candid conversation recorded live here at
the Aspen Ideas Festival. Maybe you can hear the Aspen
trees and streams behind me where I'm sitting down with
(00:45):
some of the world's foremost leaders, innovators, and creators. Today
is my conversation with Yan Appeal, President of Arts, Culture
and Heritage at Chanel. I'm so excited she Pivots is
one of the inaugural audio first media companies to partner
with the festival. It was invigorating to be among brilliant
(01:05):
leaders and thinkers from around the globe to discuss and
hear the ideas that'll shape tomorrow and help us understand today.
Over the next few weeks, you'll hear live candid conversations
from inspiring women recorded here at the festival, from geopolitical issues,
to economic issues, to cultural issues and beyond. Each interview
(01:26):
connects to the larger cultural moment we're in, and of course,
interreeves their personal lives. I hope you walk away feeling
as inspired and determined as I did to continue to
share our stories and experiences to change the cultural landscape
for a better tomorrow. Let's jump right in. So happy
(01:51):
to be here at the Asmen Ideas Festival with Yana Peel,
the President of Arts, Culture and Heritage at Chanel. Her
work at the intersection of art and innovation has opened
doors for thousands and shaped cultural narratives of today. Welcome Yanna.
Thank you so much. Emily.
Yana Peel (02:06):
It's amazing to be back here at the Aspen Institute
because you were here before. I was definitely here before.
It's so nostalgic walking through these amazing buildings where I
have had the honor of spending several weeks as an
Aspen Fellow, Henry Crownfellow in fact. So it's wonderful to
be back here.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:21):
Those are the really prestigious ones. Oh my god, what's that?
Yana Peel (02:24):
Yes, fantastic, A wonderful program and ethical entrepreneurship. So we
were here on the lawn and now it's amazing to
be able to bring that program Aspen Institute back to
London and in one month we're going to have our
annual Cultural Leaders for It, which is where we get
cultural leaders from around the world to go through some
of the amazing exploration.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:45):
That I got to do here as a fellow myself.
Oh love that, so cool, so cool.
Yana Peel (02:50):
Our group was too legit to quit, So it's great
to be back here. I've had some pivots, but decidedly
I'm going to carry that motto too legit to quit. Perfect,
it's perfect for this. So let's us back up. Can
you just set the scene for us, Little Yana, where
did you grow up?
Emily Tisch Sussman (03:04):
What was your family like?
Yana Peel (03:05):
Oh gosh, I guess roots in Saint Petersburg, boots in Canada,
shoots in London where I moved in nineteen ninety seven
for graduate work at the LC. So currently I am
living in London. I'm going back to Asia next week,
where I had my second child, where I spent an
amazing seven years chairing an arts institution setting up Intelligence
(03:28):
Square at Asia. So I guess it's really been five segments,
a very important number for us at Chanel, starting with
my birth in Eastern Europe, growing up in Canada, moving
to London in my twenties from my education, heading to
Hong Kong, where I had my second child and pivoted
my career yet again, and then back to London just
(03:51):
at the time of Brexit in a countercyclical move in
twenty sixteen, as so many were driving exodus and now
living in London, but spent a lot of time in
America as well. So delighted to pick on any of
those aspects with you here today.
Emily Tisch Sussman (04:05):
You're so global.
Yana Peel (04:06):
We try, you know, we can't accelerate the ideas that
advance culture, and to be able to pattern match across
those different geographies means that you can be very localized.
So if you look at the projects that we're spearheading
in my current role, very different thinking. What America might need,
which I feel is a center for artists and technology
at CalArts. What China might need, which is the first
public arts library. Our work in Europe is currently seeing
(04:30):
us appoint the first curator of Botany at the Builer
So I'm really lucky being able to move around and
have the possibilities to do so really enables me to
spend time with the people on the ground who can
enable me to go further than I can go myself,
but also to accelerate those ideas that advancing their culture
wherever it might be on the ground.
Emily Tisch Sussman (04:49):
I feel like it might make sense for us to
spend a little time in the current job before we
keep going back through the timeline, just so we fully
understand the I mean, this is not a job that
I expected to see a Chanel president of Arts, Culture
and Heritage. Did they create the job for you? I'm
thinking yes, I feel like you're very cultural and worldly.
Yana Peel (05:09):
Gosh, I feel like I've never taken a job. I've
always made a job, very strangely and very fortunately. In
five years ago now, I was invited, while running the
Serpentine Galleries in London to come in and shape an
extension of this century of supporting the arts. So it's
amazing because we do not have our own museums like
(05:30):
so many other luxury brands do so effectively. So in
this role, which I assumed in March twenty twenty, we
can talk about that.
Emily Tisch Sussman (05:39):
It's really a way to start it what a way
to start? Come well.
Yana Peel (05:42):
I started with the podcast because I thought, twenty twenty,
let's call everyone from the basement of my home in
COVID and figure out what we could do to really
focus on what matters most and what's coming next. So
I've taken Gabriel Schnell's legacy that idea of what we's
wanting to be part of the next so A five
and thinking about in a way that's very local. So
(06:02):
five years it's been thinking about how we can be
really great partners, how we can drive the philanthropy of
the house to really help arts institutions now on five
continents in fifty institutions, how we can accelerate the art
prizes like the next Prize. I just saw Damian Wetzel
thanked him for being a great nominator. But it means
that we can give out funding to artists across the spectrum,
(06:24):
wherever they might be, as long as they're cusping. It
means we can unite cultural leaders, which we do with
the Aspen Institute in fact in London every year. And
it means that we can focus on publishing. We've just
put out volume one of our Arts and Culture publication
across twenty three indiep bookstores around the world. And it
means that I can have a cool podcast where I
can speak to the people who really understand what's happening
(06:47):
locally and figure out for channel how to stay really
connected to the networks that matter and to accelerate those
ideas that shape culture.
Emily Tisch Sussman (06:55):
And why is this important? Particularly at this moment in time.
It feels like it's icy you overwhelmed by all the
challenges in the world, the need in the world. They
met someone yesterday who told me they run a foundation
that supports democracy in America and Israel, and I was like,
what I've been tasked these days, you know, So it
just feels like there's so much. Why is this important
(07:16):
at this moment? At this moment, as you say, there
is so much. It feels good to be able to
focus on what I know best and to be able
to make my impact within the communities where I feel
we can truly drive impact At the moment. It's so
wonderful being based in London and being able to work
in this global way where you can focus on accelerating
(07:39):
those ideas rather than picking any particular sides of any topics.
Tolstoy said, every happy family is happy in the same way.
Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. And
so I think what we focus on is really how
to drive that joy gerhard Richter said that art is
the greatest form of hope, and through our work in
(08:00):
you know, advancing narratives for women, like doubling the number
of women in the National Portrait Gallery, in our work
enabling artists to harness technologies so that they can define
the future. In our work opening public arts libraries in China,
or enabling performance artists in Thailand to thrive. I feel
like we can really be constructive and progress the paths
(08:23):
within our possibilities so that we can work in parallel
to those who are driving progress and taking us to
What I learned in Aspen Institute was the Aristotolian ideal
of you'd ammonia and a happy life. Now, you mentioned
two specific projects in China and Taiwan, and obviously those
are difficult to be in both places, to be in
(08:44):
both of those countries because of their relationship. Do you
feel like, because you come as an outside establishment brand,
you can cut through that and say we're working with
both of you.
Yana Peel (08:52):
I find that I'm always working as an individual that's
very rooted in cultural communities. So when we come to China,
it's working with gong Yan. When we come to cal Arts,
it's working with Ravi Rajan. When it comes to Taiwan,
we are working with the Taiwan Performing Arts Center. So
it's very much about finding great leaders and being able
to work with them to imagine future possibilities. In London
(09:17):
at the moment, it was so amazing to celebrate Chanelle's
hundred year anniversary in the UK at the VNA Storehouse
and there you saw Tristram Hunt who pulled out the
largest Picasso ever imagined from the storehouse of the VNA.
It was the nineteen twenty four backdrop to Gabrielle Chanel's
La Trembleau, and he showcased it at the time when
he was also opening the new VNA, which is a
(09:38):
new storehouse, a new model of a museum where you
can literally call up whatever it is you might want
to see on any given day. So I think the
path has really been about being agnostic to anything other
than who are the great leaders that are accelerating humanity
and driving progress, And it's working with some of these
great leaders that were able to move into new cultural
(09:58):
institutions and really progress that kind of ideation, focus on women,
focus on championing exciting narratives whoever might be telling them,
and also thinking about what it is to really champion
human creation, human creativity in an era where AI is
upon us.
Emily Tisch Sussman (10:16):
Okay, well I think all day about that, but it's
about how human human let's do it. It's interesting that
you're looking at humanity, at culture, at locality. You're looking
broader than fashion, which is I would say, traditionally associated
with the brand. Did that come from you? Was that
a mandate that came from the company? You know, so
much of this show and the stories we try to highlight,
(10:38):
we talk about how the position of success that we
are in right now, and it can be success in
any measure, comes the culmination of all of our experiences.
And I feel like that is definitely true for you
in this job. You know, you've been in finance, you've
been in an art still over the world, like, does
that come from you? You know?
Yana Peel (10:54):
I had a mother who loved beautiful things in fashion.
She was an immigrant to Canada and said the asp
was very much about the beauty and the luxury and
the appreciation of enabling something in the next generation, which
was different from the place from which she had come.
I've always had this magnetic pull towards the new and
(11:16):
the next and whatever idea might take us forward. And
although it might seem like my career has been such
a wild pivot, if I was going to project a
through line, it would really be this following of an
idea of the newness of the nowness, whether from the
trading floor of Goldman Sachs, where I was able to
work within emerging markets at a time where that was
(11:38):
very much at the vanguard, I was able to work
with emerging technologies at the end of the nineties, or
I was able to work within an Asian construct and
to be the first Western chairman of an art space
that was using history to define the future. I feel
very lucky now to be in a platform which gives
me that freedom of creation and so with the within
(12:00):
my lane. So it's within my lane really in terms
of thinking about how I can progress the mission of
the house to be really connected to culture that I
feel I'm able to bring my best self and I'm
able to bring my best networks so I can compliment
those of the others.
Emily Tisch Sussman (12:17):
It's funny said at the beginning that you have you've
never gone into a job you've always created a job.
I actually did the same thing, and I did it
in politics, but every job I went into, I said,
I think that you're missing something here. And here's why
I've identified the ocean.
Yana Peel (12:29):
Right, this is the blue ocean. Here's the opportunity exactly.
Emily Tisch Sussman (12:32):
So can you talk us through those career decisions that
you made and how did you present yourself to each
of these companies organizations that you've gone to to say
I am it.
Yana Peel (12:42):
I don't know if I said I'm it, but I
said I am here. And it's funny. Last week we
opened Gabrielshanaw's house on the Riviera that she had posted
these incredible artists like Salvador Delhi and there was a
Korean artist that showed up from Soul on an invitation
as I'm so glad you took the invitation, and she said, well,
of course I am here, and while you are going places,
I am Kim because you showed up. And I feel
(13:04):
like when I started in banking, I spoke a variety
of languages that didn't all connect to something useful seemingly,
but at the time it meant that I could go
onto the trading floor and work within emerging markets. From there,
I found that there was a gap between the community
that I was able to find myself in in this
cool Britannia at the turn of the century. In London,
(13:24):
it was Tony Blair's area. It was dawn of a
new labor It was the heyday of the Sensation Show
at the Royal Academy, and I thought, Okay, here i
am in my day job working with this burgeoning new
sector of hedge funds, and at night I'm supporting arts institutions.
I'm getting to meet the young British artists like Damien
Hurst and Tracy Emmon that had become the heroes of
(13:44):
our time. And when I left banking, it was really
to fill that space, to really start a foundation that
was called Outset, that convened philanthropists around public support and
innovative funding. And although that seemed radical at the time,
it proved to be this new era of philanthro capitalism
that became a model which really became successful and got
(14:05):
modeled in twenty countries. So from there, when I moved
to Asia, and that was not my choice, I followed
my amazing husband who said, now it's time to move
to Hong Kong. I thought, oh gosh, what do I
do now with one four year old and a young child? No,
what do I do now with a four year old
and a child on the way who was not yet
a twinkle in our eye? And when I moved to Asia,
(14:27):
I saw there was this experience in convening people again
around exciting ideas. I took Intelligence Squared out there.
Emily Tisch Sussman (14:34):
We formed a.
Yana Peel (14:35):
Platform much like this one which would convene people around
radical topics. You know, can the hand that rocks the
cradle also rocked the boardroom? Could the East be a
leader in climate change? And so we were able to
have these very constructive debates with large communities under the
Intelligence Squared umbrella. And then from there it became really
(14:58):
attractive to accept an invitation to share an art space
called Parasite, which had been a real important venue in
the community to champion the ideas of artists. And then
that became my platform for becoming very connected to the community,
becoming a big fundraiser and friend raiser for this Asian
(15:19):
cultural landscape. Two thousand and nine, there we Are Art.
Basil showed up and saw that was an amazing moment
for the Hong Kong arts arena. It wasn't called our
basle at the time, but over seven years there we
were able to really build a community of allies and
friends in the arts. We were able to really herald
(15:40):
in this m plus museum which is now the Great Beacon,
which I have a privilege to partner with on a
curator of avant garde cinema. And so it was an
amazing era. Also in Hong Kong, it was a real
golden era in terms of growing that community, in terms
of again connecting the culture and commerce that I had
always worked between. You know, Andy Warhol always said good
(16:02):
business is the best art, and asia in that era
was a wonderful time to manifest that. I guess then
when I was invited to join the board of the
Serpentine Galleries, no one says no to Mayor Mike Bloomberg,
and that was an amazing moment to say yes and
then eventually come back to London when I did, I
was on the board. Eventually I was invited to replace
(16:24):
the existing director and to follow in the footsteps of
someone who had also shaped such a successful institution over
twenty five years. Was an amazing opportunity. I did that
for three years Hans lorg Oberst was an amazing ally
and then I got a knock on the door from
Chanel and here we are.
Emily Tisch Sussman (16:43):
An incredible like I feel like there's so many moments
that I want to go back into because there's so
many incredible things in there. I wonder if there are
there are moments in you know, we try to kind
of drill down into these moments where in hindsight we're
so glad they happened. You know, you referenced it in
having moved to Hong Kong but grudgingly. But in the
(17:03):
moment we think, oh my god, this is the end
of my career, or this is the end of the
satisfaction I was finding through. Maybe it's not career related,
maybe it's personally related. Were there moments in there like that,
or even when it was in the move to Hong
Kong where you said, oh, this is not the path
I thought I was going down, and I'm going to
have to make something else out of it.
Yana Peel (17:24):
Yes, I think those moments of discomfort are actually what
drive you to go further than you could ever imagine.
I think never letting a good crisis go to waste.
Emily Tisch Sussman (17:34):
This is a great idea.
Yana Peel (17:36):
When I started in finance, it was so many emerging
markets crises been it with the doc coom boom, And
I think when I left my role in public service
running in cultural institution, it was really at the beginning
of an era where things were becoming very difficult for
cultural leaders. And I think that moment of appreciating the
hyper glare of media has made me incredibly sensitive to
(17:59):
the challenges the opportunities for cultural leaders to define their
roles at this particular moment in time. So it's been
wonderful at Chanel being able to shine a light and
work within a construct of media where we can really
use a sixty million person Instagram following to shine a
light on precious at Gram or on an amazing artist
(18:20):
like Julian Cruse. But it is really having learned through
that media moment in my cultural leadership life that I
was able to appreciate the hardship when you don't have
so much of a.
Emily Tisch Sussman (18:33):
Resource around you.
Yana Peel (18:35):
So I do think it's coming from that challenging moment
that I'm now able to convene cultural leaders once a
year and to give them the freedom of creation. The
resources of the Aspen Institute of great people like Henry
Tims and other leaders like Nirie Woods from Oxford who
show up and share with them how challenging it is
to be a cultural leader in such divided times.
Emily Tisch Sussman (18:57):
Yeah, one of the things that you brought up was
Intelligence Squared, running Intelligence Squared and debate in Hong Kong.
I mean, Hong Kong and China overall are not really
known for embracing divergent thoughts and having high scale debate
on different topics. How did you manage that?
Yana Peel (19:13):
I think that's always been part of my interest is
in bringing people of seeming the opposing views together and
having them constructively find a way forward. Artists are so
often prescient in this way. I remember, in my time
working with Hansolwork, we appointed the first chief Technology Officer,
we appointed the first trader of ecology. We brought Edward
(19:35):
Enfel and Arthur Jaifa into the fold, and we realized
that we could constructively address the big issues of our time.
I remember on Monday, I just saw Grace and Perry,
the amazing transvest i potter from London, who was the
basis of my first show as a cultural leader, and
you know it was Brexit through art.
Emily Tisch Sussman (19:52):
He brought people.
Yana Peel (19:53):
From leave and remained together so that they could make
their own pults and show that they didn't look that different.
And so I I think the great opportunity is really
trying to bring people together across ideologies and to constructively
find ways forward, like we did with our debate platform
at the time. I think that's why being here at
(20:14):
the Ideas Festival is so wonderful. That's why I feel
so lucky to be able to go to Davos as
a cultural leader, to speak to people like now Rogers
about what AI means to authorship. And so I find
myself gravitating to these centers of ideas and then trying
to really figure out how I can be constructive in
(20:35):
driving future facing solutions rather than being mired in the friction.
So I'd rather commit than complain.
Emily Tisch Sussman (20:44):
Oh I love, I'd rather commit than complain. I am
going to needle point that on all you needle point two? Emily,
is there no end to five? After the break? More
from Yanna. I really not to come back to this
(21:19):
Intelligence Squared idea, but I really wonder about this. Part
of the reason that I have actually kept all of
our guests as American on she pivots is because of
cultural context? Am I the only Canadian Brits? Are we
putting our elbows up here? Yes? Right, we had one
Canadian who spent a lot of time in America. Okay,
but yes you are the only.
Yana Peel (21:38):
I feel very you see, we're breaking tradition. Look look
at this, Look here, we are making history. Yes, but
we've broken out of a silo. And if there's one
small thing I will take away, it's the real happiness
that we've been able.
Emily Tisch Sussman (21:49):
To do that. Thank you for bringing us over the
line here. Part of the reason that I made that
decision early on is because I wanted our listeners and
me myself as a listener in this, to be able
to take examples from our guests, like to hear what
they went through, to hear that they had you know,
didn't necessarily think there was going to be an upside
out of it, and hear the march through it, and think, Okay,
what can I take from this that applies to my
(22:11):
own life? And the cultural context matters so much, so
much that for the most part, I don't think it
can translate outside of the US. So we have different opportunities,
we have different barriers and so I think part of
why I keep coming back to this idea of Intelligence Squared.
I'm so struck by the fact that you took a
program that is the biggest idea generator, you know, that
(22:33):
is like, let's really challenge each other and let's have
a civil debate around it in a time and a
country that does not have the same context as the US,
like the US. Really we challenge government, we challenge ideas,
we encourage debate. That's really not the context that you
were working in. And so I'm so interested by I mean,
did you have government pushback? Did culturally did it work?
(22:56):
Like were people they're interested in having intellectual debate on
different topics.
Yana Peel (23:00):
Again, back to artists, I think this is where artists
can really work within the nuance to drive progress. If
you look at artists like Boris Pasternak driving Nobel Prize
winning literature at a time of closed government structures, If
we look at the complexities of trying to navigate a
(23:21):
museum like UCCA by the great Phil Tanari, you appreciate
that actually there are nuances and skills to cultural leaders
who are able to navigate their individual situations. I feel
I'm lucky to be able to move around in these ways,
to use my European background, my Canadian upbringing, my life
(23:44):
experience in Asia, and my UK base to really find
those areas where we have human overlap. And again, I
think that's where the greatest writers and filmmakers and poets
of our time have been able to reach into our
souls and unity. It's where they find something that's universal,
that isn't it limited to a time or space. And
being at a company that is over a century old,
(24:07):
there's latent chanel. It is long, we think, well beyond
the moment, means that hopefully I can try to think
on a horizon which is much longer than the hero.
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:17):
And now, okay, so let's bring AI in. Let's let's
do it. Let's been a whole forty minutes.
Yana Peel (24:22):
And where we are I mean artistic intelligence, right, that's
what we're talking.
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:25):
About, y right? Of course? Of course, Also when I
see the signs all over here at askpen Ideas, it's AI,
and I'm like AI in this direction, I'm out right,
So it is hard for me to see AI as
anything more than making everyone incredibly dumb. And yet someone
tells me it's here to stay, and so I can
potentially begrudgingly accept that how are you seeing it in
(24:48):
the artist space? Like, how is it interacting in a
cultural space?
Yana Peel (24:51):
Well, let me ask you. Do you not in any
way use AI to prepare for your podcast?
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:56):
No? Not at all? Okay, interesting.
Yana Peel (24:59):
Do I see a name of a guest at a
table next to you, realize you have no connection to
that person, and then maybe put into chat GPT what
might Emily and.
Emily Tisch Sussman (25:09):
This person have in common? I would probably I would
either google them or I would should process.
Yana Peel (25:13):
We should try this at the end of this podcast
to check what we might have been talking about on
this podcast. And I think it might be a fun
But ideas are so good because of your expertise.
Emily Tisch Sussman (25:22):
So here we are.
Yana Peel (25:24):
I have always felt that you should use whatever tools
are available to you, and if you go back to creators,
I mean those tubes of paint that were invented that
enabled artists to go outside and actually drive Impressionism to
me is just a technology like the Gutenberg Press, and
I've always felt that creative people will be able to
harness those for good if given the right environments. I'm
(25:46):
very aware of what regulation means and how important it
is I'm involved with the NSPCC. That's our largest children
protection agency in the UK, the National Society for the
Protection against Cruelty to Children. Thrilled to see Jonathan Hype
here and also very passionate about what it means to
ensuring that children have a safe and happy childhood online.
Emily Tisch Sussman (26:06):
So I'm very aware and wide eyed.
Yana Peel (26:08):
That if you're getting something for free on the internet,
you might be the product, not the consumer. Yet I'm
also very embracing of the fact that if we are
able to use AI for our benefit, if we are
able to empower our children with AI and not succumb
to it, that we will come out for the better.
So with that in mind, I don't know where we're going.
(26:30):
I know that we have a far away until we arrive,
but starting the Center for Artists and Technology at cal
Arts under very clever leadership makes me feel that we
will have a seat at the table and that we
will be able to use the resources of the philanthropic
Culture Fund to empower the really great leadership and institution
that was started by the Disney Brothers in the sixties
(26:52):
at a time where animation technology was also something pretty
scary for traditional cartoonists. And graphic designers. I feel that
we will be able to accompany the people on the
journey while also keeping a three sixty awareness that creation
must be human, that the technology must be in service
to the artistic endeavor, and that, you know, again speaking
(27:16):
to artists like Nile Rogers, that music and writing shall
not be scraped unknowingly to make sure that we're not
dealing with an environment where artists are relying on universal
basic income.
Emily Tisch Sussman (27:28):
Right, which is it definitely feels like a potential And
I feel like the usage of AI to create artistic
pieces came as a surprise to me. Maybe everyone else
who's been tracking AI was expecting this, but I felt
like everyone told us AI was going to take away
like wrote jobs, and all of a sudden it was like,
oh no, it's the creatives, right, Like that really came
(27:48):
as a came from the side I think that we are.
I'm just a little bit smart here, so you're like, no,
not at all.
Yana Peel (27:55):
But I followed artists and you know, started this project
called the Window at Shah and they said, can you
put something in the window of our beautiful headquarters at
time in life in London? And I thought, oh, I'm
sure you think I'm going to put a sculpture or painting,
and here we are. We started two years ago program
called The Window, which was commissioning digital artists to create
artworks using AI, using SORE, using mid Journey, whatever tools
(28:18):
they felt were appropriate for the moment. Rafik Anadol was
a very natural place to start. I'm sure you've seen
his work in MoMA and in other institutions where he
has harnessed these extraordinary data sets with the benevolence of
Nvidia of other providers who have given him CPUs and
the tools he needs to be able to make this
incredible imagery through his data. We moved into artists like
(28:41):
Sarah mayohas like Wang Shui, like Lu Yang, and we're
able to really ensure that we were giving artists the freedom,
the resources, and the space to showcase their innovation. And now,
very excitingly, we are taking this project on invitation from
the Highline to New York and so it's really wonderful
also to be able to showcase the works of artists
(29:03):
using these new tools, to think about how this might
translate into this extraordinary popular public venue, and to really
think about what art for all means. So that you're
not just constraining it to the find confines of a
public institution. As innovative some of these institutions might be.
I think it's really exciting to think about what technology
(29:23):
can mean for space based experiences and how we will
look to theater to filmmaking to really adopt some of
these new tools. And so I'm really excited to accompany
these people who will be able to do things that
you or I might never even imagine. So artistic intelligence
(29:44):
is really what I'm thinking about as I think about AI.
Emily Tisch Sussman (29:46):
Yeah, did you see the picture of Dorian Gray as
a one woman showd loved It? Sarah Insane, magnificent, insane,
Sarah Snook played every single character. There were screens everyway, magnifu.
There was like live video everywhere, and they're now they're
using some elem mints of it enjoy on Off Broadway,
which has been interesting too. That was a place where
(30:06):
I didn't know what to expect going in. But it's
a use of like I feel like when we say
like technology in arts or technology and anything, now it
just all means AI. But you're using technology and arts
in a different way. You're saying it's screens. It's interactive,
like there's other things beyond just AI. Is that how
you're thinking about building these programs, whether it's cal arts
or the window or others.
Yana Peel (30:27):
I love that idea. Is you know, Sarah's Nook is
so magnificently and you thought, after succession, how could it
get a better? And then you did and there was
Oscar Wilde and I realized, you know, I took a
group of fourteen year olds to see this incredible production
and the fact that they use the iPhone, they use
the language of our modern life to really bring this vital,
(30:48):
enduring piece of tremendous literary tradition to life. I found
really incredibly exciting. Where we are I mean theater in
London At the moment, I think there's been seventeen and
a half million people visiting theaters, which is even more
than the Premier League and dare I say more than Broadway.
With that said, I think people do want to come together.
They want to come together in physical spaces. I don't
(31:10):
think they want to come together in movie theaters necessarily
as much. They'd rather be on letterbox, they'd rather be
comparing what they might have seen at home with friends
who are also on some of these apps. But I
do think that we're going to be seeing this move
in terms of why we come together and why we gather.
And I think AI and I think VR and I
think AR have a really important role to play. We're
(31:32):
currently in this uncomfortable moment of Chumpeter's creative destruction. We're
seeing some things disappear and some things come forth. But
I do think that there's people who are using these
tools that are aligning ancient technologies and history with driving
the future, and in that spirit of history driving future possibilities.
(31:55):
I'm so excited by the possibilities of new leaders at
the National Theater thinking about what NT live could mean.
I'm excited about my role on ABT's Global Council and
thinking how artists and dancers want to engage with technology,
what Wayne McGregor is doing in terms of his own
archive in AI. So I do think that there is
utility there for artists, but I think technology will make
(32:18):
things really efficient and artists will make technology really exciting.
Emily Tisch Sussman (32:27):
Stay tuned for more of Yanna after the break. That's
so interesting. I tend to I am a big believer
(32:48):
in what we need in this moment and that we're
yearning for is shared experience in efferson shared experience, and
I think that is the antidote to the loneliness to
the technology or you know these sort of like individual
tchnology right press. And that has been even though I
guess this is a podcast that you are probably listening
to on some sort of technology, but that has been
the focus of a lot of my investment and a
(33:10):
lot of my work over the last couple of years.
Like I just keep getting more and more drawn towards it.
So I've been investing in Broadway and the biggest piece
is that we own the women's soccer team in New
York got them FC congratulations. The mind has been amazing.
Yana Peel (33:23):
My daughter's an athlete, and so I love what is
happening with women's sport and the drive towards wellness and sport,
and it's really excited.
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:31):
It's incredible. So we we're the controlling owners of the
team for about the last year and a half. My
sister runs the team, and it's been a really amazing experience.
People always ask if we were soccer players. We were
not never too late. It's never too late by and
essays here you come I'm dying to get invited to
a practice, and I got the money because your hair
could be.
Yana Peel (33:50):
Kind of picked and I can wrapping up what I'm
thinking a bit of baby blue there.
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:54):
We all know that could my butt of practice. But
I'm dying to do it. But part of the business
case that making for you know, soccer is not big
in the US the way it obviously is in the UK,
or we call it football. I know, I know it's
again it's an American audience here in guys. Youre England
are we?
Yana Peel (34:10):
You have this great play as devn to the stage
that Dear England was a really popular play at the
National Theater. It's gone to America and what a relief
it's translated globally.
Emily Tisch Sussman (34:20):
We do have on Gotham we have an English national
team player Jess Carter. Great that we bring to Rail,
the real Dylan. But you know, part of our business
case for both operating the team, buying the team and
growing the team is that families are dying for ir
l in real life experiences to experience them together and
(34:42):
they've become so far in fused, like you don't have
to be a soccer lover to go You don't have
to be a sports lover to go. Families just want
to do things the way that you took your daughter
and her friends to go see the theater, and so
trying to position it that way that this is something
that you and your family can have a shared experience
together that will and strengthen your relationship. We are pack animals.
Like at the end of the day, what I'm very
(35:04):
interested by what you're describing that we can actually utilize
technology in different ways here to enhance the experience. Like
I think of these in person experiences, whether it's theater,
Gotham or something else in real life, as being like
the antithesis of technology. You're saying it can actually enhance
the I think it's part of a three sixty.
Yana Peel (35:24):
So gosh, I spend a lot of time watching rowing,
and so very conveniently and fortunately and brilliantly, Chanelle is
also supporting the Oxford Cambridge boat Race. At this incredible time,
I cannot be at every race, and so I'm so
grateful to YouTube for being able to broadcast rowing at
a time where I am not able to be there physically.
(35:45):
I'm also so grateful to be at Aspen Ideas and
heading over to Henley in London, so I can be
in this very wonderful place watching men and women compete
along the river. So I do think that there is
at the top of the pyramid the possibility of being
somewhere alive. I think living in Asia and not having
museums on my doorstep at the time in Hong Kong
before the opening of Endplus also really opened me up
(36:07):
to the urgency of what it meant to have platforms
like Bloomberg Connects so that you were able to see
great exhibitions and understand the artworks behind them. So I'm
looking at this as the opening up of access art
for all, sport for all. As you say, loneliness, I
think is one of the greatest diseases in America, of course,
and across so many continents. And if we can use
(36:29):
technology to unite in some of those places and spaces
that might have taken the place of churches and synagogues
and mosques where finding people are not physically convening in
some of those spaces. But I do think we will
see a transformation of the high Street. We might see
a transformation of spaces that used to traditionally be retail environments,
(36:51):
religious environments into places where people who are like minded
convene for really positive experiences. I'm hopeful that we can
come about some without loneliness. We can drive safety online,
we can think about what it means to really come
back to that primal joy of human endeavor. And I
think that's why I'm happy to be here with you.
(37:13):
I'm happy to be ask an Ideas Festival. I'm also
happy that people can be listening to this podcast. If
they find these topics of interest, they can catch this
for free, and I think that is a tremendous luxury.
Emily Tisch Sussman (37:24):
Yeah. So I will bring us to our closing question,
which we ask of all of our guests in this
vein of never let a good crisis go to waste?
Is there something could be, something we spoken about, could
be something different that at the time it felt so
low that you felt like I'm never going to see
my way out of this, and now in retrospect, you
didn't let it go to waste.
Yana Peel (37:43):
What a great question, I guess. Thoughts just naturally take
me back to March twenty twenty when I stepped into
the executive team of Chanel and then covid HIT and
I found myself absolutely frenzied about how to drive a
central old tradition of embracing the avant garde culture forward.
(38:07):
I did something like what you did from what I
understand of your own life pivot and I started talking
to as many people as I could, in whatever conditions
they might be in, and thinking about asking them what
matters most, what's coming next. I started a podcast called
Chanel Connects, which is now seen a fifth season, and
so I guess, coming out of that moment where we
were all so down and thinking how we might never
(38:29):
find our way out of the darkness, I turned to artists.
I turned to cultural leaders to help show us the light.
And having filmed that podcast last week at La Pauza,
the beautiful home of Gabrielle Chanel, where for a decade
she hosted artists like Salvador Dali and writers like Cocteau
and Reverdi.
Emily Tisch Sussman (38:49):
It was amazing to be in this natural.
Yana Peel (38:51):
Environment in the south of France, surrounded by two hundred
and fifty olive trees and Lilac speaking to incredible guests
around the beauty of the home. Speaking to Italian philosopher
Emmanuel Lacca about the philosophy of the home and thinking
how things have come around, how we started in the
home in a moment of darkness, thinking that this pandemic
(39:12):
might never allow us to come together in a physical environment,
and how that drove us to a place where we
can now say, listeners of the podcast, please catch Chanelle
Connects season five wherever you may get your podcasts.
Emily Tisch Sussman (39:25):
It also occurs to me that I should not leave
without asking your advice. We can keep going beyond this
show if we want to. But the thing that I so,
my sister runs Gotham, our team like the whole thing.
It's like child. So now the chair of the entire league.
That's fantastic. It's really a pioneer in a maverick. It's
been a real year and a half, let me tell you.
And the way that I just started kind of helping
(39:47):
and have now turned this into a full portfolio at
the league with the team, is that I do what
we say. I bring culture to Gotham, and Gotham to culture.
So I bring culture into Gotham. I bring fashion editors,
bring celebrities, everyone, influencers, national anthem singers into Gotham. Please
please come, My hand is up so high. Please come,
(40:08):
and then I bring Gotham to culture. We're in New York,
so I've been bringing players to the Tony Awards. We
had the first soccer player on Broadway in Chicago, to
restaurant openings, to ABT, They're coming to the Mystic Copeland Benefit,
so things like that. Trying to get the more integrated
into culture in New York. We wanted to mean something
(40:29):
when a player plays for us. It's not just that
we are any other soccer team. We appreciate you as
a full person. We want to support your interests, we
want to help not I mean it's not just brand. Yes,
everyone's now thinking about brand, but it should mean something
that you're with us, that we are helping integrate you
into New York culture. And so that's been the role
that I've been taking with the team. And since you
(40:50):
think so deeply about connecting, you know, both locally and
then globally, I would love to get your advice on
what I should be doing.
Yana Peel (40:57):
You and I should be having a coffee, we should
be spending another hour together over Masha and discussing that.
But I love that zigzagging of worlds as you call it,
and so I'm going to get you to get Gotham
to London. We love ABT in America, of course, such
an incredible institution Sadler's Wells in London. If you ever
want to talk about the physicality of dents and how
that lies in parallel between athletes and athlete dancers, if
(41:22):
they want to engage in a new sport, there's always
an invitation for Oxford Cambridge boat Race as that lies
across the river. But I think super happy to always
be a resource for you and to always connect the
world of Gotham to my world as it relates to
arts and the ideas of the future.
Emily Tisch Sussman (41:43):
Thank you. We will definitely be taking you up on that.
Last thing is that we are circling around a title
for me in this and we are circling around Chief
Vibes Office. Oh I love that.
Yana Peel (41:52):
When I was a CEO, I said it was cheap
eternal optimist, and I think CVO is decidedly are.
Emily Tisch Sussman (42:00):
You should be really appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Pleasure you mucha pleasure, and thank you so much. It's
been a joy. Thank you so much for listening to
this special episode If She Pivots recorded live at the
Aspen Ideas festival. The best way to stay up to
date with Yanna is through her incredible podcast, Janelle Connects,
(42:22):
where she sits down with the world's most renowned artists
and cultural leaders. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Thanks
for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I hope
you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us a
rating and tell your friends about us. To learn more
about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she pivots
(42:44):
the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter, where you
can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our website
at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was produced
and edited by Emily Atavelosik, with sound edit and mixing
from Nina Pollock. Audio production and social media by Hannah Cousins,
(43:05):
research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and planning by Emma
Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is proud to be
a part of the iHeart Podcast Network. I endorse t
Pivots
Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Yan Appeal.
Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where we talk
with women who dare to pivot out of one career
and into something new and explore how their personal lives
(00:23):
impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. Today
we have another special candid conversation recorded live here at
the Aspen Ideas Festival. Maybe you can hear the Aspen
trees and streams behind me where I'm sitting down with
(00:45):
some of the world's foremost leaders, innovators, and creators. Today
is my conversation with Yan Appeal, President of Arts, Culture
and Heritage at Chanel. I'm so excited she Pivots is
one of the inaugural audio first media companies to partner
with the festival. It was invigorating to be among brilliant
(01:05):
leaders and thinkers from around the globe to discuss and
hear the ideas that'll shape tomorrow and help us understand today.
Over the next few weeks, you'll hear live candid conversations
from inspiring women recorded here at the festival, from geopolitical issues,
to economic issues, to cultural issues and beyond. Each interview
(01:26):
connects to the larger cultural moment we're in, and of course,
interreeves their personal lives. I hope you walk away feeling
as inspired and determined as I did to continue to
share our stories and experiences to change the cultural landscape
for a better tomorrow. Let's jump right in. So happy
(01:51):
to be here at the Asmen Ideas Festival with Yana Peel,
the President of Arts, Culture and Heritage at Chanel. Her
work at the intersection of art and innovation has opened
doors for thousands and shaped cultural narratives of today. Welcome Yanna.
Thank you so much. Emily.
Yana Peel (02:06):
It's amazing to be back here at the Aspen Institute
because you were here before. I was definitely here before.
It's so nostalgic walking through these amazing buildings where I
have had the honor of spending several weeks as an
Aspen Fellow, Henry Crownfellow in fact. So it's wonderful to
be back here.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:21):
Those are the really prestigious ones. Oh my god, what's that?
Yana Peel (02:24):
Yes, fantastic, A wonderful program and ethical entrepreneurship. So we
were here on the lawn and now it's amazing to
be able to bring that program Aspen Institute back to
London and in one month we're going to have our
annual Cultural Leaders for It, which is where we get
cultural leaders from around the world to go through some
of the amazing exploration.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:45):
That I got to do here as a fellow myself.
Oh love that, so cool, so cool.
Yana Peel (02:50):
Our group was too legit to quit, So it's great
to be back here. I've had some pivots, but decidedly
I'm going to carry that motto too legit to quit. Perfect,
it's perfect for this. So let's us back up. Can
you just set the scene for us, Little Yana, where
did you grow up?
Emily Tisch Sussman (03:04):
What was your family like?
Yana Peel (03:05):
Oh gosh, I guess roots in Saint Petersburg, boots in Canada,
shoots in London where I moved in nineteen ninety seven
for graduate work at the LC. So currently I am
living in London. I'm going back to Asia next week,
where I had my second child, where I spent an
amazing seven years chairing an arts institution setting up Intelligence
(03:28):
Square at Asia. So I guess it's really been five segments,
a very important number for us at Chanel, starting with
my birth in Eastern Europe, growing up in Canada, moving
to London in my twenties from my education, heading to
Hong Kong, where I had my second child and pivoted
my career yet again, and then back to London just
(03:51):
at the time of Brexit in a countercyclical move in
twenty sixteen, as so many were driving exodus and now
living in London, but spent a lot of time in
America as well. So delighted to pick on any of
those aspects with you here today.
Emily Tisch Sussman (04:05):
You're so global.
Yana Peel (04:06):
We try, you know, we can't accelerate the ideas that
advance culture, and to be able to pattern match across
those different geographies means that you can be very localized.
So if you look at the projects that we're spearheading
in my current role, very different thinking. What America might need,
which I feel is a center for artists and technology
at CalArts. What China might need, which is the first
public arts library. Our work in Europe is currently seeing
(04:30):
us appoint the first curator of Botany at the Builer
So I'm really lucky being able to move around and
have the possibilities to do so really enables me to
spend time with the people on the ground who can
enable me to go further than I can go myself,
but also to accelerate those ideas that advancing their culture
wherever it might be on the ground.
Emily Tisch Sussman (04:49):
I feel like it might make sense for us to
spend a little time in the current job before we
keep going back through the timeline, just so we fully
understand the I mean, this is not a job that
I expected to see a Chanel president of Arts, Culture
and Heritage. Did they create the job for you? I'm
thinking yes, I feel like you're very cultural and worldly.
Yana Peel (05:09):
Gosh, I feel like I've never taken a job. I've
always made a job, very strangely and very fortunately. In
five years ago now, I was invited, while running the
Serpentine Galleries in London to come in and shape an
extension of this century of supporting the arts. So it's
amazing because we do not have our own museums like
(05:30):
so many other luxury brands do so effectively. So in
this role, which I assumed in March twenty twenty, we
can talk about that.
Emily Tisch Sussman (05:39):
It's really a way to start it what a way
to start? Come well.
Yana Peel (05:42):
I started with the podcast because I thought, twenty twenty,
let's call everyone from the basement of my home in
COVID and figure out what we could do to really
focus on what matters most and what's coming next. So
I've taken Gabriel Schnell's legacy that idea of what we's
wanting to be part of the next so A five
and thinking about in a way that's very local. So
(06:02):
five years it's been thinking about how we can be
really great partners, how we can drive the philanthropy of
the house to really help arts institutions now on five
continents in fifty institutions, how we can accelerate the art
prizes like the next Prize. I just saw Damian Wetzel
thanked him for being a great nominator. But it means
that we can give out funding to artists across the spectrum,
(06:24):
wherever they might be, as long as they're cusping. It
means we can unite cultural leaders, which we do with
the Aspen Institute in fact in London every year. And
it means that we can focus on publishing. We've just
put out volume one of our Arts and Culture publication
across twenty three indiep bookstores around the world. And it
means that I can have a cool podcast where I
can speak to the people who really understand what's happening
(06:47):
locally and figure out for channel how to stay really
connected to the networks that matter and to accelerate those
ideas that shape culture.
Emily Tisch Sussman (06:55):
And why is this important? Particularly at this moment in time.
It feels like it's icy you overwhelmed by all the
challenges in the world, the need in the world. They
met someone yesterday who told me they run a foundation
that supports democracy in America and Israel, and I was like,
what I've been tasked these days, you know, So it
just feels like there's so much. Why is this important
(07:16):
at this moment? At this moment, as you say, there
is so much. It feels good to be able to
focus on what I know best and to be able
to make my impact within the communities where I feel
we can truly drive impact At the moment. It's so
wonderful being based in London and being able to work
in this global way where you can focus on accelerating
(07:39):
those ideas rather than picking any particular sides of any topics.
Tolstoy said, every happy family is happy in the same way.
Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. And
so I think what we focus on is really how
to drive that joy gerhard Richter said that art is
the greatest form of hope, and through our work in
(08:00):
you know, advancing narratives for women, like doubling the number
of women in the National Portrait Gallery, in our work
enabling artists to harness technologies so that they can define
the future. In our work opening public arts libraries in China,
or enabling performance artists in Thailand to thrive. I feel
like we can really be constructive and progress the paths
(08:23):
within our possibilities so that we can work in parallel
to those who are driving progress and taking us to
What I learned in Aspen Institute was the Aristotolian ideal
of you'd ammonia and a happy life. Now, you mentioned
two specific projects in China and Taiwan, and obviously those
are difficult to be in both places, to be in
(08:44):
both of those countries because of their relationship. Do you
feel like, because you come as an outside establishment brand,
you can cut through that and say we're working with
both of you.
Yana Peel (08:52):
I find that I'm always working as an individual that's
very rooted in cultural communities. So when we come to China,
it's working with gong Yan. When we come to cal Arts,
it's working with Ravi Rajan. When it comes to Taiwan,
we are working with the Taiwan Performing Arts Center. So
it's very much about finding great leaders and being able
to work with them to imagine future possibilities. In London
(09:17):
at the moment, it was so amazing to celebrate Chanelle's
hundred year anniversary in the UK at the VNA Storehouse
and there you saw Tristram Hunt who pulled out the
largest Picasso ever imagined from the storehouse of the VNA.
It was the nineteen twenty four backdrop to Gabrielle Chanel's
La Trembleau, and he showcased it at the time when
he was also opening the new VNA, which is a
(09:38):
new storehouse, a new model of a museum where you
can literally call up whatever it is you might want
to see on any given day. So I think the
path has really been about being agnostic to anything other
than who are the great leaders that are accelerating humanity
and driving progress, And it's working with some of these
great leaders that were able to move into new cultural
(09:58):
institutions and really progress that kind of ideation, focus on women,
focus on championing exciting narratives whoever might be telling them,
and also thinking about what it is to really champion
human creation, human creativity in an era where AI is
upon us.
Emily Tisch Sussman (10:16):
Okay, well I think all day about that, but it's
about how human human let's do it. It's interesting that
you're looking at humanity, at culture, at locality. You're looking
broader than fashion, which is I would say, traditionally associated
with the brand. Did that come from you? Was that
a mandate that came from the company? You know, so
much of this show and the stories we try to highlight,
(10:38):
we talk about how the position of success that we
are in right now, and it can be success in
any measure, comes the culmination of all of our experiences.
And I feel like that is definitely true for you
in this job. You know, you've been in finance, you've
been in an art still over the world, like, does
that come from you? You know?
Yana Peel (10:54):
I had a mother who loved beautiful things in fashion.
She was an immigrant to Canada and said the asp
was very much about the beauty and the luxury and
the appreciation of enabling something in the next generation, which
was different from the place from which she had come.
I've always had this magnetic pull towards the new and
(11:16):
the next and whatever idea might take us forward. And
although it might seem like my career has been such
a wild pivot, if I was going to project a
through line, it would really be this following of an
idea of the newness of the nowness, whether from the
trading floor of Goldman Sachs, where I was able to
work within emerging markets at a time where that was
(11:38):
very much at the vanguard, I was able to work
with emerging technologies at the end of the nineties, or
I was able to work within an Asian construct and
to be the first Western chairman of an art space
that was using history to define the future. I feel
very lucky now to be in a platform which gives
me that freedom of creation and so with the within
(12:00):
my lane. So it's within my lane really in terms
of thinking about how I can progress the mission of
the house to be really connected to culture that I
feel I'm able to bring my best self and I'm
able to bring my best networks so I can compliment
those of the others.
Emily Tisch Sussman (12:17):
It's funny said at the beginning that you have you've
never gone into a job you've always created a job.
I actually did the same thing, and I did it
in politics, but every job I went into, I said,
I think that you're missing something here. And here's why
I've identified the ocean.
Yana Peel (12:29):
Right, this is the blue ocean. Here's the opportunity exactly.
Emily Tisch Sussman (12:32):
So can you talk us through those career decisions that
you made and how did you present yourself to each
of these companies organizations that you've gone to to say
I am it.
Yana Peel (12:42):
I don't know if I said I'm it, but I
said I am here. And it's funny. Last week we
opened Gabrielshanaw's house on the Riviera that she had posted
these incredible artists like Salvador Delhi and there was a
Korean artist that showed up from Soul on an invitation
as I'm so glad you took the invitation, and she said, well,
of course I am here, and while you are going places,
I am Kim because you showed up. And I feel
(13:04):
like when I started in banking, I spoke a variety
of languages that didn't all connect to something useful seemingly,
but at the time it meant that I could go
onto the trading floor and work within emerging markets. From there,
I found that there was a gap between the community
that I was able to find myself in in this
cool Britannia at the turn of the century. In London,
(13:24):
it was Tony Blair's area. It was dawn of a
new labor It was the heyday of the Sensation Show
at the Royal Academy, and I thought, Okay, here i
am in my day job working with this burgeoning new
sector of hedge funds, and at night I'm supporting arts institutions.
I'm getting to meet the young British artists like Damien
Hurst and Tracy Emmon that had become the heroes of
(13:44):
our time. And when I left banking, it was really
to fill that space, to really start a foundation that
was called Outset, that convened philanthropists around public support and
innovative funding. And although that seemed radical at the time,
it proved to be this new era of philanthro capitalism
that became a model which really became successful and got
(14:05):
modeled in twenty countries. So from there, when I moved
to Asia, and that was not my choice, I followed
my amazing husband who said, now it's time to move
to Hong Kong. I thought, oh gosh, what do I
do now with one four year old and a young child? No,
what do I do now with a four year old
and a child on the way who was not yet
a twinkle in our eye? And when I moved to Asia,
(14:27):
I saw there was this experience in convening people again
around exciting ideas. I took Intelligence Squared out there.
Emily Tisch Sussman (14:34):
We formed a.
Yana Peel (14:35):
Platform much like this one which would convene people around
radical topics. You know, can the hand that rocks the
cradle also rocked the boardroom? Could the East be a
leader in climate change? And so we were able to
have these very constructive debates with large communities under the
Intelligence Squared umbrella. And then from there it became really
(14:58):
attractive to accept an invitation to share an art space
called Parasite, which had been a real important venue in
the community to champion the ideas of artists. And then
that became my platform for becoming very connected to the community,
becoming a big fundraiser and friend raiser for this Asian
(15:19):
cultural landscape. Two thousand and nine, there we Are Art.
Basil showed up and saw that was an amazing moment
for the Hong Kong arts arena. It wasn't called our
basle at the time, but over seven years there we
were able to really build a community of allies and
friends in the arts. We were able to really herald
(15:40):
in this m plus museum which is now the Great Beacon,
which I have a privilege to partner with on a
curator of avant garde cinema. And so it was an
amazing era. Also in Hong Kong, it was a real
golden era in terms of growing that community, in terms
of again connecting the culture and commerce that I had
always worked between. You know, Andy Warhol always said good
(16:02):
business is the best art, and asia in that era
was a wonderful time to manifest that. I guess then
when I was invited to join the board of the
Serpentine Galleries, no one says no to Mayor Mike Bloomberg,
and that was an amazing moment to say yes and
then eventually come back to London when I did, I
was on the board. Eventually I was invited to replace
(16:24):
the existing director and to follow in the footsteps of
someone who had also shaped such a successful institution over
twenty five years. Was an amazing opportunity. I did that
for three years Hans lorg Oberst was an amazing ally
and then I got a knock on the door from
Chanel and here we are.
Emily Tisch Sussman (16:43):
An incredible like I feel like there's so many moments
that I want to go back into because there's so
many incredible things in there. I wonder if there are
there are moments in you know, we try to kind
of drill down into these moments where in hindsight we're
so glad they happened. You know, you referenced it in
having moved to Hong Kong but grudgingly. But in the
(17:03):
moment we think, oh my god, this is the end
of my career, or this is the end of the
satisfaction I was finding through. Maybe it's not career related,
maybe it's personally related. Were there moments in there like that,
or even when it was in the move to Hong
Kong where you said, oh, this is not the path
I thought I was going down, and I'm going to
have to make something else out of it.
Yana Peel (17:24):
Yes, I think those moments of discomfort are actually what
drive you to go further than you could ever imagine.
I think never letting a good crisis go to waste.
Emily Tisch Sussman (17:34):
This is a great idea.
Yana Peel (17:36):
When I started in finance, it was so many emerging
markets crises been it with the doc coom boom, And
I think when I left my role in public service
running in cultural institution, it was really at the beginning
of an era where things were becoming very difficult for
cultural leaders. And I think that moment of appreciating the
hyper glare of media has made me incredibly sensitive to
(17:59):
the challenges the opportunities for cultural leaders to define their
roles at this particular moment in time. So it's been
wonderful at Chanel being able to shine a light and
work within a construct of media where we can really
use a sixty million person Instagram following to shine a
light on precious at Gram or on an amazing artist
(18:20):
like Julian Cruse. But it is really having learned through
that media moment in my cultural leadership life that I
was able to appreciate the hardship when you don't have
so much of a.
Emily Tisch Sussman (18:33):
Resource around you.
Yana Peel (18:35):
So I do think it's coming from that challenging moment
that I'm now able to convene cultural leaders once a
year and to give them the freedom of creation. The
resources of the Aspen Institute of great people like Henry
Tims and other leaders like Nirie Woods from Oxford who
show up and share with them how challenging it is
to be a cultural leader in such divided times.
Emily Tisch Sussman (18:57):
Yeah, one of the things that you brought up was
Intelligence Squared, running Intelligence Squared and debate in Hong Kong.
I mean, Hong Kong and China overall are not really
known for embracing divergent thoughts and having high scale debate
on different topics. How did you manage that?
Yana Peel (19:13):
I think that's always been part of my interest is
in bringing people of seeming the opposing views together and
having them constructively find a way forward. Artists are so
often prescient in this way. I remember, in my time
working with Hansolwork, we appointed the first chief Technology Officer,
we appointed the first trader of ecology. We brought Edward
(19:35):
Enfel and Arthur Jaifa into the fold, and we realized
that we could constructively address the big issues of our time.
I remember on Monday, I just saw Grace and Perry,
the amazing transvest i potter from London, who was the
basis of my first show as a cultural leader, and
you know it was Brexit through art.
Emily Tisch Sussman (19:52):
He brought people.
Yana Peel (19:53):
From leave and remained together so that they could make
their own pults and show that they didn't look that different.
And so I I think the great opportunity is really
trying to bring people together across ideologies and to constructively
find ways forward, like we did with our debate platform
at the time. I think that's why being here at
(20:14):
the Ideas Festival is so wonderful. That's why I feel
so lucky to be able to go to Davos as
a cultural leader, to speak to people like now Rogers
about what AI means to authorship. And so I find
myself gravitating to these centers of ideas and then trying
to really figure out how I can be constructive in
(20:35):
driving future facing solutions rather than being mired in the friction.
So I'd rather commit than complain.
Emily Tisch Sussman (20:44):
Oh I love, I'd rather commit than complain. I am
going to needle point that on all you needle point two? Emily,
is there no end to five? After the break? More
from Yanna. I really not to come back to this
(21:19):
Intelligence Squared idea, but I really wonder about this. Part
of the reason that I have actually kept all of
our guests as American on she pivots is because of
cultural context? Am I the only Canadian Brits? Are we
putting our elbows up here? Yes? Right, we had one
Canadian who spent a lot of time in America. Okay,
but yes you are the only.
Yana Peel (21:38):
I feel very you see, we're breaking tradition. Look look
at this, Look here, we are making history. Yes, but
we've broken out of a silo. And if there's one
small thing I will take away, it's the real happiness
that we've been able.
Emily Tisch Sussman (21:49):
To do that. Thank you for bringing us over the
line here. Part of the reason that I made that
decision early on is because I wanted our listeners and
me myself as a listener in this, to be able
to take examples from our guests, like to hear what
they went through, to hear that they had you know,
didn't necessarily think there was going to be an upside
out of it, and hear the march through it, and think, Okay,
what can I take from this that applies to my
(22:11):
own life? And the cultural context matters so much, so
much that for the most part, I don't think it
can translate outside of the US. So we have different opportunities,
we have different barriers and so I think part of
why I keep coming back to this idea of Intelligence Squared.
I'm so struck by the fact that you took a
program that is the biggest idea generator, you know, that
(22:33):
is like, let's really challenge each other and let's have
a civil debate around it in a time and a
country that does not have the same context as the US,
like the US. Really we challenge government, we challenge ideas,
we encourage debate. That's really not the context that you
were working in. And so I'm so interested by I mean,
did you have government pushback? Did culturally did it work?
(22:56):
Like were people they're interested in having intellectual debate on
different topics.
Yana Peel (23:00):
Again, back to artists, I think this is where artists
can really work within the nuance to drive progress. If
you look at artists like Boris Pasternak driving Nobel Prize
winning literature at a time of closed government structures, If
we look at the complexities of trying to navigate a
(23:21):
museum like UCCA by the great Phil Tanari, you appreciate
that actually there are nuances and skills to cultural leaders
who are able to navigate their individual situations. I feel
I'm lucky to be able to move around in these ways,
to use my European background, my Canadian upbringing, my life
(23:44):
experience in Asia, and my UK base to really find
those areas where we have human overlap. And again, I
think that's where the greatest writers and filmmakers and poets
of our time have been able to reach into our
souls and unity. It's where they find something that's universal,
that isn't it limited to a time or space. And
being at a company that is over a century old,
(24:07):
there's latent chanel. It is long, we think, well beyond
the moment, means that hopefully I can try to think
on a horizon which is much longer than the hero.
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:17):
And now, okay, so let's bring AI in. Let's let's
do it. Let's been a whole forty minutes.
Yana Peel (24:22):
And where we are I mean artistic intelligence, right, that's
what we're talking.
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:25):
About, y right? Of course? Of course, Also when I
see the signs all over here at askpen Ideas, it's AI,
and I'm like AI in this direction, I'm out right,
So it is hard for me to see AI as
anything more than making everyone incredibly dumb. And yet someone
tells me it's here to stay, and so I can
potentially begrudgingly accept that how are you seeing it in
(24:48):
the artist space? Like, how is it interacting in a
cultural space?
Yana Peel (24:51):
Well, let me ask you. Do you not in any
way use AI to prepare for your podcast?
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:56):
No? Not at all? Okay, interesting.
Yana Peel (24:59):
Do I see a name of a guest at a
table next to you, realize you have no connection to
that person, and then maybe put into chat GPT what
might Emily and.
Emily Tisch Sussman (25:09):
This person have in common? I would probably I would
either google them or I would should process.
Yana Peel (25:13):
We should try this at the end of this podcast
to check what we might have been talking about on
this podcast. And I think it might be a fun
But ideas are so good because of your expertise.
Emily Tisch Sussman (25:22):
So here we are.
Yana Peel (25:24):
I have always felt that you should use whatever tools
are available to you, and if you go back to creators,
I mean those tubes of paint that were invented that
enabled artists to go outside and actually drive Impressionism to
me is just a technology like the Gutenberg Press, and
I've always felt that creative people will be able to
harness those for good if given the right environments. I'm
(25:46):
very aware of what regulation means and how important it
is I'm involved with the NSPCC. That's our largest children
protection agency in the UK, the National Society for the
Protection against Cruelty to Children. Thrilled to see Jonathan Hype
here and also very passionate about what it means to
ensuring that children have a safe and happy childhood online.
Emily Tisch Sussman (26:06):
So I'm very aware and wide eyed.
Yana Peel (26:08):
That if you're getting something for free on the internet,
you might be the product, not the consumer. Yet I'm
also very embracing of the fact that if we are
able to use AI for our benefit, if we are
able to empower our children with AI and not succumb
to it, that we will come out for the better.
So with that in mind, I don't know where we're going.
(26:30):
I know that we have a far away until we arrive,
but starting the Center for Artists and Technology at cal
Arts under very clever leadership makes me feel that we
will have a seat at the table and that we
will be able to use the resources of the philanthropic
Culture Fund to empower the really great leadership and institution
that was started by the Disney Brothers in the sixties
(26:52):
at a time where animation technology was also something pretty
scary for traditional cartoonists. And graphic designers. I feel that
we will be able to accompany the people on the
journey while also keeping a three sixty awareness that creation
must be human, that the technology must be in service
to the artistic endeavor, and that, you know, again speaking
(27:16):
to artists like Nile Rogers, that music and writing shall
not be scraped unknowingly to make sure that we're not
dealing with an environment where artists are relying on universal
basic income.
Emily Tisch Sussman (27:28):
Right, which is it definitely feels like a potential And
I feel like the usage of AI to create artistic
pieces came as a surprise to me. Maybe everyone else
who's been tracking AI was expecting this, but I felt
like everyone told us AI was going to take away
like wrote jobs, and all of a sudden it was like,
oh no, it's the creatives, right, Like that really came
(27:48):
as a came from the side I think that we are.
I'm just a little bit smart here, so you're like, no,
not at all.
Yana Peel (27:55):
But I followed artists and you know, started this project
called the Window at Shah and they said, can you
put something in the window of our beautiful headquarters at
time in life in London? And I thought, oh, I'm
sure you think I'm going to put a sculpture or painting,
and here we are. We started two years ago program
called The Window, which was commissioning digital artists to create
artworks using AI, using SORE, using mid Journey, whatever tools
(28:18):
they felt were appropriate for the moment. Rafik Anadol was
a very natural place to start. I'm sure you've seen
his work in MoMA and in other institutions where he
has harnessed these extraordinary data sets with the benevolence of
Nvidia of other providers who have given him CPUs and
the tools he needs to be able to make this
incredible imagery through his data. We moved into artists like
(28:41):
Sarah mayohas like Wang Shui, like Lu Yang, and we're
able to really ensure that we were giving artists the freedom,
the resources, and the space to showcase their innovation. And now,
very excitingly, we are taking this project on invitation from
the Highline to New York and so it's really wonderful
also to be able to showcase the works of artists
(29:03):
using these new tools, to think about how this might
translate into this extraordinary popular public venue, and to really
think about what art for all means. So that you're
not just constraining it to the find confines of a
public institution. As innovative some of these institutions might be.
I think it's really exciting to think about what technology
(29:23):
can mean for space based experiences and how we will
look to theater to filmmaking to really adopt some of
these new tools. And so I'm really excited to accompany
these people who will be able to do things that
you or I might never even imagine. So artistic intelligence
(29:44):
is really what I'm thinking about as I think about AI.
Emily Tisch Sussman (29:46):
Yeah, did you see the picture of Dorian Gray as
a one woman showd loved It? Sarah Insane, magnificent, insane,
Sarah Snook played every single character. There were screens everyway, magnifu.
There was like live video everywhere, and they're now they're
using some elem mints of it enjoy on Off Broadway,
which has been interesting too. That was a place where
(30:06):
I didn't know what to expect going in. But it's
a use of like I feel like when we say
like technology in arts or technology and anything, now it
just all means AI. But you're using technology and arts
in a different way. You're saying it's screens. It's interactive,
like there's other things beyond just AI. Is that how
you're thinking about building these programs, whether it's cal arts
or the window or others.
Yana Peel (30:27):
I love that idea. Is you know, Sarah's Nook is
so magnificently and you thought, after succession, how could it
get a better? And then you did and there was
Oscar Wilde and I realized, you know, I took a
group of fourteen year olds to see this incredible production
and the fact that they use the iPhone, they use
the language of our modern life to really bring this vital,
(30:48):
enduring piece of tremendous literary tradition to life. I found
really incredibly exciting. Where we are I mean theater in
London At the moment, I think there's been seventeen and
a half million people visiting theaters, which is even more
than the Premier League and dare I say more than Broadway.
With that said, I think people do want to come together.
They want to come together in physical spaces. I don't
(31:10):
think they want to come together in movie theaters necessarily
as much. They'd rather be on letterbox, they'd rather be
comparing what they might have seen at home with friends
who are also on some of these apps. But I
do think that we're going to be seeing this move
in terms of why we come together and why we gather.
And I think AI and I think VR and I
think AR have a really important role to play. We're
(31:32):
currently in this uncomfortable moment of Chumpeter's creative destruction. We're
seeing some things disappear and some things come forth. But
I do think that there's people who are using these
tools that are aligning ancient technologies and history with driving
the future, and in that spirit of history driving future possibilities.
(31:55):
I'm so excited by the possibilities of new leaders at
the National Theater thinking about what NT live could mean.
I'm excited about my role on ABT's Global Council and
thinking how artists and dancers want to engage with technology,
what Wayne McGregor is doing in terms of his own
archive in AI. So I do think that there is
utility there for artists, but I think technology will make
(32:18):
things really efficient and artists will make technology really exciting.
Emily Tisch Sussman (32:27):
Stay tuned for more of Yanna after the break. That's
so interesting. I tend to I am a big believer
(32:48):
in what we need in this moment and that we're
yearning for is shared experience in efferson shared experience, and
I think that is the antidote to the loneliness to
the technology or you know these sort of like individual
tchnology right press. And that has been even though I
guess this is a podcast that you are probably listening
to on some sort of technology, but that has been
the focus of a lot of my investment and a
(33:10):
lot of my work over the last couple of years.
Like I just keep getting more and more drawn towards it.
So I've been investing in Broadway and the biggest piece
is that we own the women's soccer team in New
York got them FC congratulations. The mind has been amazing.
Yana Peel (33:23):
My daughter's an athlete, and so I love what is
happening with women's sport and the drive towards wellness and sport,
and it's really excited.
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:31):
It's incredible. So we we're the controlling owners of the
team for about the last year and a half. My
sister runs the team, and it's been a really amazing experience.
People always ask if we were soccer players. We were
not never too late. It's never too late by and
essays here you come I'm dying to get invited to
a practice, and I got the money because your hair
could be.
Yana Peel (33:50):
Kind of picked and I can wrapping up what I'm
thinking a bit of baby blue there.
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:54):
We all know that could my butt of practice. But
I'm dying to do it. But part of the business
case that making for you know, soccer is not big
in the US the way it obviously is in the UK,
or we call it football. I know, I know it's
again it's an American audience here in guys. Youre England
are we?
Yana Peel (34:10):
You have this great play as devn to the stage
that Dear England was a really popular play at the
National Theater. It's gone to America and what a relief
it's translated globally.
Emily Tisch Sussman (34:20):
We do have on Gotham we have an English national
team player Jess Carter. Great that we bring to Rail,
the real Dylan. But you know, part of our business
case for both operating the team, buying the team and
growing the team is that families are dying for ir
l in real life experiences to experience them together and
(34:42):
they've become so far in fused, like you don't have
to be a soccer lover to go You don't have
to be a sports lover to go. Families just want
to do things the way that you took your daughter
and her friends to go see the theater, and so
trying to position it that way that this is something
that you and your family can have a shared experience
together that will and strengthen your relationship. We are pack animals.
Like at the end of the day, what I'm very
(35:04):
interested by what you're describing that we can actually utilize
technology in different ways here to enhance the experience. Like
I think of these in person experiences, whether it's theater,
Gotham or something else in real life, as being like
the antithesis of technology. You're saying it can actually enhance
the I think it's part of a three sixty.
Yana Peel (35:24):
So gosh, I spend a lot of time watching rowing,
and so very conveniently and fortunately and brilliantly, Chanelle is
also supporting the Oxford Cambridge boat Race. At this incredible time,
I cannot be at every race, and so I'm so
grateful to YouTube for being able to broadcast rowing at
a time where I am not able to be there physically.
(35:45):
I'm also so grateful to be at Aspen Ideas and
heading over to Henley in London, so I can be
in this very wonderful place watching men and women compete
along the river. So I do think that there is
at the top of the pyramid the possibility of being
somewhere alive. I think living in Asia and not having
museums on my doorstep at the time in Hong Kong
before the opening of Endplus also really opened me up
(36:07):
to the urgency of what it meant to have platforms
like Bloomberg Connects so that you were able to see
great exhibitions and understand the artworks behind them. So I'm
looking at this as the opening up of access art
for all, sport for all. As you say, loneliness, I
think is one of the greatest diseases in America, of course,
and across so many continents. And if we can use
(36:29):
technology to unite in some of those places and spaces
that might have taken the place of churches and synagogues
and mosques where finding people are not physically convening in
some of those spaces. But I do think we will
see a transformation of the high Street. We might see
a transformation of spaces that used to traditionally be retail environments,
(36:51):
religious environments into places where people who are like minded
convene for really positive experiences. I'm hopeful that we can
come about some without loneliness. We can drive safety online,
we can think about what it means to really come
back to that primal joy of human endeavor. And I
think that's why I'm happy to be here with you.
(37:13):
I'm happy to be ask an Ideas Festival. I'm also
happy that people can be listening to this podcast. If
they find these topics of interest, they can catch this
for free, and I think that is a tremendous luxury.
Emily Tisch Sussman (37:24):
Yeah. So I will bring us to our closing question,
which we ask of all of our guests in this
vein of never let a good crisis go to waste?
Is there something could be, something we spoken about, could
be something different that at the time it felt so
low that you felt like I'm never going to see
my way out of this, and now in retrospect, you
didn't let it go to waste.
Yana Peel (37:43):
What a great question, I guess. Thoughts just naturally take
me back to March twenty twenty when I stepped into
the executive team of Chanel and then covid HIT and
I found myself absolutely frenzied about how to drive a
central old tradition of embracing the avant garde culture forward.
(38:07):
I did something like what you did from what I
understand of your own life pivot and I started talking
to as many people as I could, in whatever conditions
they might be in, and thinking about asking them what
matters most, what's coming next. I started a podcast called
Chanel Connects, which is now seen a fifth season, and
so I guess, coming out of that moment where we
were all so down and thinking how we might never
(38:29):
find our way out of the darkness, I turned to artists.
I turned to cultural leaders to help show us the light.
And having filmed that podcast last week at La Pauza,
the beautiful home of Gabrielle Chanel, where for a decade
she hosted artists like Salvador Dali and writers like Cocteau
and Reverdi.
Emily Tisch Sussman (38:49):
It was amazing to be in this natural.
Yana Peel (38:51):
Environment in the south of France, surrounded by two hundred
and fifty olive trees and Lilac speaking to incredible guests
around the beauty of the home. Speaking to Italian philosopher
Emmanuel Lacca about the philosophy of the home and thinking
how things have come around, how we started in the
home in a moment of darkness, thinking that this pandemic
(39:12):
might never allow us to come together in a physical environment,
and how that drove us to a place where we
can now say, listeners of the podcast, please catch Chanelle
Connects season five wherever you may get your podcasts.
Emily Tisch Sussman (39:25):
It also occurs to me that I should not leave
without asking your advice. We can keep going beyond this
show if we want to. But the thing that I so,
my sister runs Gotham, our team like the whole thing.
It's like child. So now the chair of the entire league.
That's fantastic. It's really a pioneer in a maverick. It's
been a real year and a half, let me tell you.
And the way that I just started kind of helping
(39:47):
and have now turned this into a full portfolio at
the league with the team, is that I do what
we say. I bring culture to Gotham, and Gotham to culture.
So I bring culture into Gotham. I bring fashion editors,
bring celebrities, everyone, influencers, national anthem singers into Gotham. Please
please come, My hand is up so high. Please come,
(40:08):
and then I bring Gotham to culture. We're in New York,
so I've been bringing players to the Tony Awards. We
had the first soccer player on Broadway in Chicago, to
restaurant openings, to ABT, They're coming to the Mystic Copeland Benefit,
so things like that. Trying to get the more integrated
into culture in New York. We wanted to mean something
(40:29):
when a player plays for us. It's not just that
we are any other soccer team. We appreciate you as
a full person. We want to support your interests, we
want to help not I mean it's not just brand. Yes,
everyone's now thinking about brand, but it should mean something
that you're with us, that we are helping integrate you
into New York culture. And so that's been the role
that I've been taking with the team. And since you
(40:50):
think so deeply about connecting, you know, both locally and
then globally, I would love to get your advice on
what I should be doing.
Yana Peel (40:57):
You and I should be having a coffee, we should
be spending another hour together over Masha and discussing that.
But I love that zigzagging of worlds as you call it,
and so I'm going to get you to get Gotham
to London. We love ABT in America, of course, such
an incredible institution Sadler's Wells in London. If you ever
want to talk about the physicality of dents and how
that lies in parallel between athletes and athlete dancers, if
(41:22):
they want to engage in a new sport, there's always
an invitation for Oxford Cambridge boat Race as that lies
across the river. But I think super happy to always
be a resource for you and to always connect the
world of Gotham to my world as it relates to
arts and the ideas of the future.
Emily Tisch Sussman (41:43):
Thank you. We will definitely be taking you up on that.
Last thing is that we are circling around a title
for me in this and we are circling around Chief
Vibes Office. Oh I love that.
Yana Peel (41:52):
When I was a CEO, I said it was cheap
eternal optimist, and I think CVO is decidedly are.
Emily Tisch Sussman (42:00):
You should be really appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Pleasure you mucha pleasure, and thank you so much. It's
been a joy. Thank you so much for listening to
this special episode If She Pivots recorded live at the
Aspen Ideas festival. The best way to stay up to
date with Yanna is through her incredible podcast, Janelle Connects,
(42:22):
where she sits down with the world's most renowned artists
and cultural leaders. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Thanks
for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I hope
you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us a
rating and tell your friends about us. To learn more
about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she pivots
(42:44):
the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter, where you
can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our website
at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was produced
and edited by Emily Atavelosik, with sound edit and mixing
from Nina Pollock. Audio production and social media by Hannah Cousins,
(43:05):
research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and planning by Emma
Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is proud to be
a part of the iHeart Podcast Network. I endorse t
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