Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Railvalry, No, no, sibling, don't do that with your mouth, revelry.
That's good your us like.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
The heat that's off Keith Anyway, I think that's Peter
Gabriel starting off the podcast with that song. Because we
have doctor Warren Ferrell here, who is a relationship expert,
love expert.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
He's been in the.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Game for a long, long, long long time. This man
is to be trusted with everything connection. So he's in
the waiting.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Room right now. But maybe we'll let him wait just
a little bit. Keep doctor Warren on edge, you know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
But he has a new book out called Rolemate to
Soulmate that's out July thirtieth, and he's going to give
us some information me about maintaining sibling relationships, love relationships,
maybe even relationships with yourself, maybe.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Even relationships with your pet. I don't know, but let's
bring in doctor Warren.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I know he's been waiting him a little bit late
because I have an earache, but we'll get into that later,
Doctor Warren, Well, thank you man for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I am looking very forward to being with you. I
heard your podcast once and I love the way I
love your style.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Oh well, that's good.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Maybe one of few.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I don't know, we'll stay.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
We'll see how you feel at the end of this, right, No,
but this is obviously a very interesting topic to me.
I've been in a twenty three years twenty three year relationship,
married for eighteen not without its crazy bumps.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
You know, there's been.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Infidelity, but we've always worked through it, gotten through it,
tried to communicate as much as we can, and basically
understood that there was something bigger at play, meaning the
depth of our love and our connection sort of was
worth it, and at least we were willing to go
through the fire to see if we can come out
(02:44):
the other side nice where it feels like today people
are so quick to throw everything away when there is
some sort of an issue within the relationship rather than
trying to figure out the bigger picture and having more
of a thirty thousand foot view.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Absolutely, yeah, you know, And there's such a big difference
because historically speaking, you married for security, and you and
you brought up many, many children, and breaking up meant that,
you know, everything would be destroyed. And you had also
social pressure against you, and your parents thought you were
a failure. You thought you were a failure, your church
thought you were a failure. And so there are huge
(03:28):
numbers of forces saying, you know, stick it out, and
they served a purpose. But today many people can support
themselves and there's a much different attitude, and the church
doesn't interfere as much and isn't as powerful, and so
people feel, well, all right, you know, I have a
life to lead, and you know my husband or wife
(03:49):
was unfaithful and there's absolutely no excuse for that, and
you know, and I'm out.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Of here, which is better neither per.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Se well, because you know, we don't want to be
going back to survival mode again. And at the same time,
but what's happened is that no one knows how to
handle personal criticism without becoming defensive. So somebody does something
quote wrong, like has an affair, and then and you
(04:21):
just you know, you're furious at somebody, and you don't
know how to set yourself up to hear other people's
your partner's perspective. Many times people go to therapists and
oftentimes during the week they are thinking to themselves, what
can I say to help the therapist understand my perspective.
(04:42):
So what they're doing is exactly the opposite of what
they need to be doing during the week, which is
which is reinforcing their internal argument to get the therapist
on their side. But the real So I saw this
happening with my couples, and I would say things the
workshops I had these rolled by, these workshops that I
(05:03):
called Rollmate to Soulmate workshops that I started doing thirty
years ago, and I would you advise people to not
become defensive when they know when they when they're confronted
with personal criticism. I gave them all the rational reasons
for it. And then I but I started scheduling follow
up free group phone calls to say to ask what
worked and what didn't work. And you know, basically what
(05:26):
happened was that my wisdom, so to speak, disappeared the
second and criticism appeared. So I started saying it so
much good that workshop was. And so I and I
started looking at why that was the case and realized
that historically and biologically, when you heard a criticism, you
(05:47):
heard a potential enemy, and it was functional to get
up your defenses and even to kill the enemy before
the enemy killed you. And so that was functional for survival,
but it was just totally dysfunctional for love. So I
asked myself, is there was things like active listening? But
active listening was only helping the person who was complaining
(06:10):
to be heard, but it left the person listening with
their defenses still, and then they had to repeat what
their partner said, so they had no defenses and then
they had to repeat it, so it felt like double jeopardy.
And the findings was that active listening was almost never
done without a therapist. So that was my challenge, and
(06:32):
I asked myself, is there a way to be able
to handle criticism without becoming defensive? And so I would
started having I started creating a series of meditations that
couples would do before they heard their partner's criticism, So
before you So the first thing that I would ask
(06:54):
in the workshops is for everyone to sit back to
back and to write down whether if their partner was
about to be killed, and they knew with one hundred
percent certainty that they could save their life, but on
the other hand, they would have to potentially give up
their life at a fifty percent level. Would you do
(07:14):
it if there were no children involved? Even though about
a third of the people in my workshops were you know,
this was like their last straw in the relationship. Even
though about a third were in that category, ninety percent
of the men said yes. Well, I gave them choices
of yes, no, uncertain Would you risk your life at
(07:35):
a fifty percent level to save your partner's life if
you knew one hundred percent chance of doing it? And
so ninety percent of the men and eighty percent of
the women said they would do that if there were
no children involved. And so the first mindset that I
have people do is to to say, well, if I'm
willing to die for my partner, the least I can
(07:55):
do is listen to my partner.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
It's great, It's really great that you're putting it into
a larger perspective here. You know, I love how you
break it down too, because you know, there's so many
books ideas about relationships and how to make them better
and communication. You hear all the buzzwords, but what you're
doing is breaking some of these things down to their
(08:21):
primal level, which I think is really interesting because right
before you went into it, I was going to ask
the question which you answered, which is why biologically we
do we get defensive when we're criticized, But you answered
it from a survival perspective, And I think when you
get deeper into some of these reasons, why rather than
just being sort of on the surface and trying to
(08:43):
understand them from a primal place, it's really really puts
them into, you know, a great perspective and allows you
to sort of understand yourself a little bit better.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
You know, it does increase your compassion for your propacity. However,
it doesn't really you any good just learning that intellectually,
when criticism appears, your wisdom disappears. And so I have
what I have. What the book is about, and the
(09:13):
workshop is about, is getting people to practice all these mindsets.
So I have them set aside just one time during
the week that I call a carrying and sharing session.
And during this carring and sharing session, they, before they
hear their partners only one criticism that they're allowed to
share during the week, they meditate into this altered state.
(09:38):
And it's that and I have six meditations that the
workshops have been doing for thirty years, but they've been
I've been constantly changing them to find out which meditations
work the best and by the end and they have
to read each meditation out loud and say it in
their own words so that their partner knows that they
are preparing themselves to feel safe. So like one of
(10:01):
the other meditations, is what I call the love guarantee.
So the love guarantee is if if I provide a
safe environment for you to be able to say anything
you want, and whether it's exaggerated, whether I consider it
a lie, whether it's in a bad tone of voice
that I would normally respond to. If I provide a
(10:22):
safe environment for you to say anything you want, you
will feel safer with me, therefore more secure with me,
therefore more loved by me, and therefore you will love
me more.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
And let me ask a question with that, because you know,
I've always had issues with being vulnerable, not that I
don't say what I feel, which I do with certain
people with my children. Vulnerability is very easy with women. Strangely,
(10:54):
it's been tough with my mom, my sister, and my wife,
which you know, I've worked on it and gotten better.
I wanted this. It's called the Hoffmann Institute, which really
helped me out a lot. So moving back into that exercise,
that meditation, do you find that it's easier for women
to open up and to sort of allow themselves to
surrender to that experience because men sometimes feel like this
(11:19):
is weird or I can't do this, like this isn't
you know what I mean? Is it harder to break
men down?
Speaker 1 (11:24):
It is, yes and no. So like in one of
my last workshops, there were three men who were older men,
and they just were not able to do this exercise
for a while. And so as I went up and
talked to them, all three had something in common, which
is that every time they mentioned any criticism whatsoever, that
(11:46):
they didn't even call a criticism. They called it a concern,
but their wife experienced it as a criticism. There was
no sex, there was emotional withdrawal, there was all sorts
of punishments that each of these men experience. And so
the part of the way we're biologically trained is that
we as men are expected to protect women, and when
(12:09):
women feel criticized by us, they have a number of
tools that they without being purposely this way, they will
tend to withdraw, and the men just say to themselves
after a while, it's not worth bringing it up. I'll
just keep it to myself. And so the propensity of
men already to not express any feelings is reinforced by
(12:33):
the punishment they experience when they do express feelings.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Is that a biological thing? Is that a primal thing
where men are less expressive.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
We learned as guys that if we start talking about
our weaknesses and our vulnerabilities, two things will happen. If
we talk about them to women. The women will lose
respect for us. And so if there's weakness, there's no
love unless the man has very, very thoroughly proven to
him up to the woman that he's a you know,
(13:04):
sort of superman. Lois Lane had no interest in Clark Kent,
but the moment she found out that Clark Kent was Superman,
she had an interesting and then she congratulated herself to
teach for teaching Clark Kent how to cry. But she
was only interested in the Clark Kent that became the Superman.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Even thought about that that movie is that's bullshit, that's
fucked up.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
She hated the nerd, one of the superman.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I mean, it's the same guy with different powers.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yeah, it's so interesting because nowadays, in twenty twenty four,
there's this narrative that you know, amongst men especially. You know,
maybe I'm speaking generally, but I think I think there
(13:57):
is it that vulnerability is now power. You know, vulnerability
is almost masculine now, or it's sexy, it's attractive. So
in your thirty plus years of doing this, you've really
gotten a close look on the evolution of female and
male I guess have you seen it shift and move
(14:19):
throughout the years and change from one place to when
you started to where you are now.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, there's certainly more permission for men to be vulnerable. However,
that doesn't often translate into a woman being more interested.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
It does not often because women are fighting their propensity
to be attracted to men who are strong and so However,
in a way, in the workshop, none of this makes
any difference teaching everyone. Gay couples and straight couples all
have the same problem. They all feel that when they're criticized,
(14:58):
they become defensive because if you love somebody, you're vulnerable,
and the last person in the world that you want
to criticize you is the person you love the most.
And so in a sense, the more fearful you are,
the more it suggests the degree of love you have.
Somebody on the plane criticizes me, no big deal, you know.
(15:19):
But if my wife criticizes me, who I love deeply,
that really stings. And so I do have to prepare
myself before with these mindsets. So two things happen. One
is I can fully heart everything she is saying, and
then I ask her, of course, if I've distorted anything,
(15:41):
I tell her what I've heard her say. I asked
if I've distorted anything, and then she clarifies, and if
she feels I've distorted something, I keep working on it
until she says that's exactly what I meant. And then
I asked her did I miss anything? And she goes, yes,
she missed this, And even if I felt I covered that,
(16:03):
I keep working at it until she feels that that's
that's not missed any longer. And then I ask her.
Now that she knows she's in a safe environment, I
ask her, is there anything new that you'd like to add?
Because oftentimes something new feels safe to her where the
person you're communicating with only after she knows she's safe
(16:24):
expressing the other things. And then when she thinks about
what I'd like to add, she often discovers things that
are that she didn't even know she was thinking because
she hadn't gone that far in her thinking, because she
didn't feel it was worthwhile going that far because she
didn't feel like we hear it to begin with. And so,
and this, as I said, makes no difference whether it's
(16:46):
straight or gay couples. Everybody when they when they love
somebody feels vulnerable and that and they have to prepare
themselves before they before they hear what their partner has
to say.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Yeah, because also, but I mean when you're in your workshops, like,
aren't there layers? Because every individual has their own psychology
that they have to get through in order to maybe
get to the place that you want them to get to,
you know, abandonment issues or you know they've been whatever
it is where it's hard to express myself because of
(17:24):
my own childhood and my own psychology. So everyone probably
is at different levels and their ability to go there. Absolutely,
how do you deal with that because it's such an
individual on an individual basis, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
You are, you keep being there for whatever level they
wish to go to. So what I'm hearing when the
person who's listening is hearing their partners speak, it may
be very irrational that they care so much about money
when they have plenty, or they care so much about
(17:59):
the fact that you stayed away an hour later, and
that taps into their abandonment issues because the last time
their husband or their wife stayed away later, it was
actually a sign of their setting up for an affair,
and so all that is triggered. And so what you're
doing as you're listening to your partner is you're not
worrying as the listener about whether this is rational or not.
(18:23):
You're sitting there for your partner's feelings, no matter where
they go, no matter what the distortion level is, no
matter what the anger level is. Now interestingly, the anger
level is usually much much less than it normally would
be because the partner is knowing that they're going to
be heard. And as soon as you start being knowing that,
(18:47):
your anger dissipates. Because anger is basically vulnerability's mask. Anger
is a shouting out saying I am angry about this.
But if you ask a different question and say, what
the vulnerability. And part of what I trained couple the
couples to do is is to be able to see
that that behind that anger is vulnerability. Almost invariably yes.
(19:12):
And so when you're hearing your partner exaggerate something that
comes from an abandonment issue or whatever historical issue with
your father, that then you, the person talking, the person
who's working on maybe a distorted version of reality, knows
that she or he's going to be safe airing that
(19:34):
and that you're not going to be criticizing him or
her in your mind's eye. That's so powerful. And so
the normal thing that we do when we're being criticized
is we don't listen. We self listen. We listen to
our arguments that we have in response to that like
a lawyer would, and we and the partner who's sharing
(19:56):
their concern feels the energy shift. So I don't let
people take notes when they're listening to their partner, because
I want them completely focused on and empathetic with their
partner's perspective. And when their partner at the end is
sharing what their perspective is without distortion or missing anything,
and permission to add things. It's like almost everyone says,
(20:22):
I've mentioned this issue a dozen times before, maybe one
hundred times. I've just never felt really heard and never
felt safe airing these things. So and that feeling is
one of such enormous being seen by the person you
love and knowing that instead of walking on eggshells before
(20:43):
you bring something up, the only thing you have to
do is have this caring and sharing time on your calendar,
and you know that each week you'll have to share
a chance to share the one thing that bothers you
the most, and your partner knows that there's not going
to be a whole bunch of things thrown at him
or right, just one thing that they're going to share.
And then I set up in the in the book,
(21:05):
I teach people how to set up the conflict free
zone for the other one hundred and sixty six hours
a week and teach them what to do to be
able to if criticism comes up during the week, how
to handle it, what to do with it, that type
of thing.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Yeah, I think I think what you said is resonated
with me because it's you know, I mean, I've been
in therapy, cotton bibrial therapy, forever, I know. So I
feel like I've been in so much therapy. I am
a therapist without actually having a degree. But what I
love is which makes most sense to me, which is
sort of what we try to practice with in my
(21:41):
relationship and friendships and everything else, which I want to
get into as well, which is it doesn't have to
be rational to you because it's.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
How they feel.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
Yes, so you can't project your ideas on that feeling.
It's not fair, you know. So if you can come
at it from that place, then it's not hurting you
or seems to be. It doesn't seem to be a criticism.
It's like, Okay, well this is the way that they
feel right now, and I need to respect that, even
(22:12):
though in my mind it's irrational, and maybe even in
their mind it is. But in that moment, it's a
real feeling. It's not a fake feeling. It's real. So
that needs to be taken into account. That is like
extremely important because if you can get to that place,
then defensiveness kind of melts away a little bit, yes,
(22:33):
you know, and it's less self it's less selfish, and
you're you're looking at someone you know and understanding that
it's their issue and it's not yours, essentially, kind of
what I went through with Hoffmann and dealing with, you know,
childhood patterns and how they've sort of been passed down
(22:54):
through generations essentially, and how to break some of these patterns,
you know, especially with my dad who wasn't there and
now we have a you know, a blossoming relationship right now,
which is nice a million years later, But when you
look back at him, how can I be upset when
his childhood was fucked up? When his dad, my grandfather
(23:16):
left him. He didn't have the tools, you know, So
when you can find the compassion in that and not
make it personal, there's such a weight that gets lifted off,
you know.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
It certainly is. And it's also important that when you're
communicating with your dad or your wife or husband, that
you're that you know that you will also have time
to present your perspective and that their job will be
to completely get into the mindsets of if I would
(23:50):
die for you, you know, I will at least I
can do his listeners. I here's you know, the love
guarantee and the four other mindsets that I ask that
you know each person and to go through before they listen,
So you will have a chance. You have to know
that you will have a chance to present your perspective,
which may be differently irrational.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Right right, you're both crazy both. That's really the name
of your next book. We're both crazy crazy.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So what about what about sex?
Speaker 4 (24:20):
You know, because it's it's extremely important to me in
my relationship and staying with my wife. You know, obviously
it varies, but I feel that is sort of the consummation,
you know. I mean that's how I express love and
feel a love is touch and you know, coming together
that way. It's different for other people. But how important
(24:42):
is sex in a relationship in a marriage.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well, it's important for two reasons. One, it just feels
great and it came out and it's meant to connect you.
And number two, it's also important as a statement of
what's really going on that's preventing sex from being really powerful.
So one of the things I asked people to do
before they go to the Role Made to Soulmate workshop
(25:07):
is to it is to reserve an extra day after
the workshop because like they let's say they go down
to Esslon and Big sur and they and to it's
from Friday to Monday, but I say try to mark
off Tuesday, because basically the workshop is for play. When
(25:27):
you get the issues.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Yes, but you get the issues so true real interrupt
But like when my wife and I were going through
couples therapy, it's like you come out of it when
it's a good session and you just want to like
get down in the car. You're like, oh my god, everyone,
we were so open and clear, and it's it's it's sexy,
you know what.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I mean, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Being heard and being seen is sexy. And many couples
where the sex life has sort of evaporated don't realize
that that's that it's not just the sex life having evaporated.
And maybe and maybe there are things like you know,
menopause or other things that are that are inhibiting it,
(26:11):
but there's often usually something else that that that is
being pent up inside and you can you can see
that and feel that when suddenly somebody feels completely hurt
about something that they were walking on eggshells, that reveal
to you. And then at the end of that you
just sort of open up and you really release in
a way that you know, and that's one of the
(26:35):
you know, I've been I've been accused of doing a
workshop and that it's really for play. Because now, one
thing that's very important is especially before you share your feelings,
I call that session a caring and sharing session. But
before that caring and sharing session comes up and you
share what's bothering you, you share the two things about
(26:57):
your partner that you most appreciate, or tooth that you
appreciate that happened recently, and then at the end of
the whole process, you share two other things that you appreciate.
So it's like a car what I call a caring
and sharing a sandwich. It starts with appreciations, it ends
with appreciations, and has one concern the sandwiched in between.
And so that really a lot. And so then the
(27:20):
question is, many people say they do what I would
call level one of appreciations. So let's say you say
to your wife, you know, you're really a good cook,
and she says, thank you, But she's heard that one
hundred and fifty times before. Let's say, and so step two,
level two of appreciations would be saying that, you know,
(27:40):
how did you get the turkey's skin so crisp. Now
she's beginning to feel that you're really paying attention to
what's making her a good cook. And then you say,
let's say, how did you get the dressing so moist
because you know what I did the cooking once it
got you know, dried up. Now she's seeing even a
(28:00):
deeper level of your observing what she's done. Well, then
you say, like, you know, what were the spices in that,
like parsley sage, rosemary time or some other simon and
garfocal spice. And she's now beginning to see that you
said of where you know, you're really attentive to not
just the general cooking, but these spices, the moist and
(28:23):
so on specifics. So this is a very fascinating, you know,
part of the book, in the workshop is teaching people
how to be not just share appreciations frequently and consistently,
but also and setting aside at night where you do
appreciate each other each week in addition to your spontaneous ones,
(28:45):
but also taking the appreciations to at least five levels
of specificity. And so I have during the workshop and
in the book, you know, I have people again and
again discipline themselves to share appreciations with their part here
and that fills the reservoir of love.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
That is at a great comment. You know, I think
that's so true, the specificity of sort of emotions and
speaking to your partner. It can get so just monotone,
like thanks baby, that was good, you know what I mean.
I mean, it's so easy to become passing ships that
way instead of really focusing on paying attention. And by
(29:25):
the way, you know, I've learned that sometimes you got
to fake it till you make it, even if you
know that it's not necessarily in your nature, you know,
maybe because we're all different.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
But it's like, Okay, she likes this.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
I know that this is going to make her feel good,
so I'm going to say it even though it's not
doesn't come naturally yet, so it's like, fuck it. Hey, babe,
the skin was super crispy, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I was like, oh wow, wow, you know, yeah, and
you're being seen. So that's funny that you say fake
it to you make it. I sort of have always
honored myself by being so genuine. But when I started
thinking about what is the what is how do you
maintain this conflict free zone the other one hundred and
(30:08):
sixty six hours of the week so that you can
keep the one time that you know, the one criticism
you have, the most important one for the carring and
sharing time. And so one of those I take people
through six ways to maintain the conflict free zone. One
of those six ways is called fake it till you
make it. That's really amazing, you said, and the point
(30:35):
there being very much like you were just saying that.
Let's say you buy you're feeling really upset, but you
go out and buy some flowers for your wife. What
does your wife's name Aaron?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
E r i n Yeah, e r i n n
actually yah yah.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Irish yes, daughter named darn. And so so you go
out and you buy, you buy Aaron some flowers, and
and while you're buying those flowers, you're saying, Okay, now
what does she really like? I know she likes let's say, pogonias,
and she likes maybe a cup pagonias, and you know,
so you pick up some of those things, the apercup,
(31:15):
pagonias or whatever you know she likes. And while you
are think searching out the right flower, and and you
are thinking to yourself, you're anticipating that she will smile,
that she will feel a little softer in her energy.
When she sees that you've taken the first initiative, she'll
(31:36):
see that that's a way of an effort to make peace,
and so you're faking it. You don't feel like you're
really close to her at this point, but as you're
buying flowers, your own internal piece and anticipation of her
appreciation really begins to help you reduce yours, and so
(32:00):
you don't walk into the house with a vibration of
you know, you're the enemy and I'm you know, and
you've just done something wrong. And there's dozens of things
like that. It can be something as simple as, you know,
walking over and just rubbing her shoulder or her back
or whatever. Or playing some fast music and sort of
(32:22):
you know, winking at her and saying one dance and
the fast music changes the energy, and so or just
cooking a dessert that she likes, or you know, going
out of your way in some way. It's faking it
at the beginning because you don't really feel like doing that,
but it changes your You anticipate a different response and
a different energy, and the whole thing becomes softer. So
(32:45):
the faking it has a very positive purpose.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And therapy.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
For me, it was sort of this theme of you know,
to love without expecting love back because we can't control
how the other person feels or reacts. It's not in
our control. All we can control is our expression and
when you can get that. When I was able to
get that through my head, it was again another weight
(33:20):
was lifted, where it's like, oh, I can show love
and it's okay if I don't get back what I'm expecting.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yes, because essentially you are giving to get.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
At least before I was understood that you don't need
to get because you can't control. But when you are
free to give, you get something from it no matter
what their response is.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
You know, and I would do a slight modification of that.
We all want to be loved, and so starting with
exactly what you're saying, just give and be there and create,
just like with the figurety, you make it stuff that's great.
But in the final analysis, don't be ashamed to also
(34:05):
want to be loved by your loved one and by
your father, and just as your children will want to
be want to be loved by you, And so that's
there's no shame in that desire to be loved, even
though you don't. You don't do it with the anticipation
of this, you know this for that type of thing.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
So I think I think that.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Does this translate to friendships and all kinds of other
you know relationships or you specifically geared towards you know,
sort of romantic relationships.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
No, actually the once you.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
Or siblings even hell, I guess we're doing a sibling show.
So even that sibling you know dynamic, which by the way,
is so interesting in the four years we've been doing
all this, the sibling dynamic is so complex, it's really crazy.
So you know, there's probably a great workshop for siblings too.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
And it really is all the same meaning that I
define a couple as any two people who have a
history where they love each other but that have gotten
into complexities, that would like to have a future where
they love each other more deeply. And so in the workshop,
I'll have siblings. I'll have I have father and daughter,
(35:26):
father and son, mother and son, mother and daughter. But
I only allow two people because it gets too complex
to do it with multiple people. The and so everybody
and almost every sibling has challenge and their relationships. Daddy
loved you more than he loved me, you know, so
you got all this attention and you know, and you
(35:46):
get it all the time. And when I when I
walk up with you to meet somebody, they pay you know,
they really don't just care about you know, paying attention
to you. I'm just let a little side show there,
you know. And if somebody becomes like your sister, you know,
well known. There's a lot of effort in becoming well known,
and you're so focused off and on that effort that
it's very challenging to to remember that other people have
(36:11):
certain responses to that, experiences with that feel you know,
left out, deserted, not important, admired more by and so on,
and so all of that needs to be heard. But
in the process often times of getting well known, you're
so focused on yourself you don't take the time out
to hear these things. And yet in the final analysis,
as you get particularly as you get older, you realize that,
(36:33):
you know, the people in your family are a lot
more important to you than the fame and so, but
that doesn't really happen until you you know, for.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
You do you have siblings that go through all all
kinds of different dynamics. You know that you've seen, whether
it be what you're talking about, how you know you've
achieved more and I feel less then, or you know
you don't care about me, or you don't pay attention
to the things that I sort of love. I mean,
I guess it just runs the gambit right as far
as siblings go, or is there is there something specific
(37:05):
a pattern that you see with siblings?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
You know specifically first of.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
All, all the things you mentioned, and with my sister,
she would come into She's two years younger than I am,
and she would come into a class and the teacher
would say, oh, you're Warre and Feral's sister, fantastic it
alah blah blah, and so you know, and I would
think that that would make her feel really good. But
(37:31):
her perspective, what she felt was like she was the
black and white TV and I was the color TV,
and that it was always, you know, it was always
warn and that that really so I needed needed to
and wanted to hear how that must have help From
her perspective, my brother had the exact same experience and
(37:52):
and so it was really and so one of my
internal things in life is to use whatever whatever I
have to make other people feel good about themselves and
and so, and that evolved from my seeing that that
my sister and brother had a very similar reaction to
my doing well early in life, and so I didn't.
(38:16):
Instead of it helping them, it didn't. It made them
feel less than.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
How much though, is that their own shit? You know,
it's because you weren't doing anything. You're living your life.
I'm sure you're a great brother and attentive and weren't
throwing it in their face and saying, hey, look at me, right,
I mean, you seem like a pretty humble human being.
So it's it's them dealing with their own stuff as well.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Now. But they need from me is just to be heard, right.
They don't need an argument, they don't need, but it
also is important that they are able to also hear
my perspective. However, you know, my brother is you know,
he's unfortunately was killed in a ski accident and and
(39:02):
and so he's we never got to the place where
I was, you know, able to really deal with this
at this level. But if but with my sister, who's
still alive and two years younger than I am, you know,
we've we've been able to talk this through and it's
The first and most important thing is that is to
(39:24):
for me to take I know this skill set, and
is for me to just hear her and to let
her know what I hear and you know that I
have it right from her perspective and what it must
have been like from her perspective. And she is not
as trained in this area, and so she doesn't hear
me as well, but that's fine. The relationship has gotten
(39:47):
a lot deeper and more satisfying. And when I see
her be heard, I feel a different energy that I
am happy with.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Rewinding a little bit a lot.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
So you know you've got your degree or the man,
you've done all your studies, how did you get into
this field? Because you probably had choices, right, But was
there a specific instance that we're like, well, this is
what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, it happened when I was on the board of
directors of the National Organization for Women in New York City,
and so it was speaking all around the world on
in feminist issues and then and I would go back
to a place where it's spoken before, and I'd ask.
I've always been very sort of I always have tried
to create space for people to tell me the real truth.
(40:35):
So I would say, you know, they say, oh, you know,
doctor Farrell, your presentation was so good. I love the
standing ovation you got blah blah blah. And I say, well,
what has changed for you as a result of that presentation?
They could really even come up with a specific about
what I'd said. And this is just two years later.
And so I said, all right, there's something that I
(40:58):
haven't really helped men and women in my audience walk
a mile on each other's shoes. How can I do that?
So I started to create role reversal dates and men's
beauty contests, and so I would I would have I
would say to every man in the audience, listen, how
many of you came here to learn more about women?
(41:19):
Almost every hand goes up. Okay, So I'm going to
ask you to come up on stage and walk in
the beauty contest of every day that women are in
every day of their life. And I'll do a men's
beauty contest, and so, you know, I'd have men come
up on stage in the aisles and they would do
this men's beauty contest, and women would would create a gamut, uh,
(41:40):
you know, a place where they would walk through and
they would try to reach out and maybe touch them
and stuff like that, and the men would And so
the men would compete for about forty five minutes to
become the the you know, the beauty queen, the beauty
king in the contest. And at the end, you know,
I'd process what the men fold and they would say,
(42:01):
it's kind of weird. I was runner up in this contest,
and so I'm sort of in the way, really proud,
but at the same time, I'm so pissed that nobody
seems to care about any part of me except my body.
And so here I've spent the last forty five minutes
working to showcase my body, and yet I feel angry
(42:25):
that that's the only thing I'm cared about for. And
so every woman started clapping, you know, instead of really
get thank you, you got it. So then I said,
not so easy, women, it's your turn to take to
walk a mile in men's malcaus And it's that oftentimes
men take dozens and dozens of risks of rejection before
(42:45):
the before intercourse happens for the first time. And so
I'd like you to experience without going just step one
or step two of just what it feels like for
a man to really be attracted to somebody and to
experience the possible ability of one rejection after the other
in the process of asking her out. So I sat
(43:05):
all the women into different rows based on how much
income they anticipated they would be making five years after graduation,
and with the teachers, they who were already making money,
about how much money they made. And so then I
got the men on stage and I said, you look
out in the audience and imagine yourself being the primary
(43:27):
homemaker and caretaker of the children, and it really making
a difference of how much income your partner makes, so
you could move into the right neighborhood, the right school,
and so on. And so if you find somebody in
the back rows who's likely to be making very little money,
it's your responsibility as a future parent to not focus
(43:51):
on that person, but look at the first rows of
people that are making the most likely to be making
the most money. That's your responsibility for your children, and
so on. And so now the women in the back rows,
who are usually the most attractive, are suddenly their attractiveness
is not being valued nearly as much. And so then
(44:14):
I had everybody in the audience eventually come up and
ask out their first choice man, which was very hard
for them to do because they anticipated that their first
choice man was the one that would be most likely
to reject them and so but sure enough, around the
top men, they were often seven to ten to fifteen
women competing for asking that guy out. And so the
(44:37):
women would then go ahead and you know, ask They
start saying things like, you know, you know, I want
to take you out to this best Italian restaurant and
it's really going to be great, and I'm going to
pick you up in my Porsche and you know, and
they don't have a Porsche. That barely know what the
best Italian restaurant is. There are students in college and
(44:59):
then they still only they bring it down to only
two or three people competing with them, and a number
of them would just take the arms of you know,
the guy and just pull.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
And they said, I got physical.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Physical, And they said, you know what if a guy
did that with me, I would be so said, they
said this. Every time in my life I've used the
word jerk, it applied to a guy, but today that
applied to me. And so and so I now go
back some places where I've spoken thirty years later and
(45:32):
people still remember being in that experience, and so that
led psychologists to start training with me because they saw
that I was creating experiences where people were actually walking
a mile on each other's shoes. And that began my
work in creating workshops on male female issues. One of
(45:55):
the books I've always called Why Men Are the Way
they Are? But one slice of that workshop was on communication,
and that began the thirty years ago what became the
role Made to Soulmate book today. But I was beginning
to plant in my mind a much broader workshop when
(46:20):
somebody wrote me in the This was down in the
era of letters letters, where I wrote. They wrote me
an actual letter and said, I just want you to
know I'm now using this couple's communication part of your
workshop in my family business. I'm thinking, oh, that's really nice,
and then I look at it. This is from John Robson,
the CEO of Walmart, and I thought, Wow, if he
(46:43):
can hire any you know, consultant in the country and
this little slice is helping him, then maybe I need
to develop this rolemate to Soulmate workshop to a much
greater degree. And that's how I began this.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
All right, Well, we'll coming to an end, but I
want to know a few things before we get out
of here. First of all, you know, in your relationships,
whether it be with your kids, your brothers, your sisters,
(47:19):
your wife, whatever it is, do you get looked at
when you're going through your own shit? As you know
you're the expert?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
How you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (47:31):
How do I compete with the expert? Or stop doing
your shit on me? I mean, do you ever get
that stuff from family and people you love?
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I get very little of that, however, the exception my
own self. Per I'm just now reading the audible version
of Role Made to Soulmate. Now I'm going through sections
where I haven't done that as well as I'm talking
about and you know, like and you know, I recommend
do at least one disciplined appreciation each week at the
(48:04):
five levels of specificity, and sometimes I do. We completely
my wife and I completely forget to do the appreciations,
and I don't you know, I usually I leave a
lot of posts around the house of appreciations with her,
but not as many as I would like to. And
you know, I have a section in the book on
you know, how to pan for your Partner's Gold Gold
(48:26):
and also had a pan for the Golden Life about gratitudes,
and you know, we the first time we did a
gratitude evening of just what in the world are we
grateful for living in, you know, living in the place
we're living in in California versus Ukraine, et cetera. And
so you or just having you know, being able to
do this with each other, which we couldn't do when
(48:47):
I was growing up, and you know, writing you know,
writing books with you know, with the help of search functions,
et cetera. My first three books were written on index cards.
And so as I'm reading through the books, through my
own book, I'm sort of like, you know, I'm seeing
how much I have, how ways that I fall short
(49:09):
of being the man that I could be, the best
man that I could be.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
So what do you think, upon self analysis, if you
were to pinpoint one or two things that you are
weak in, can you do that?
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Do you know?
Speaker 4 (49:24):
Are you like, well, I could be doing this better.
Just maybe not on a day to day but just
kind of generally.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yes, everything that I do well, I do less well
than I want to be doing. Like, like the appreciations
I do that. You know. My wife says I'm the
best appreciator she's ever experienced, But I don't think I am.
I mean, maybe that she's experienced, but I'm not. I
(49:50):
would like to do it better. I would. We have
a very very close relationship with my children. I don't
there's there's sort of like a little bit of a
roll of the eyes of you know, you know, of me.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
And the kid that's that they're supposed to do exactly.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
And so I don't I am not penetrating that well
enough for my own satisfaction.
Speaker 4 (50:19):
And so that your kids meaning sort of adopting some
of the things that you have.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Well, yeah, they don't, you know, they have a different
worldview and sort of like you know, this whole I
was very instrumental in having my daughter be she was
about to break up with her the man who became
her husband, and I think there was my workshop was
(50:44):
very helpful for them to not do that. And he's
the greatest guy possible and she's a wonderful young woman. Yeah,
and so so I was very happy about that. But
generally speaking, she doesn't like all this this this type
of relationship stuff.
Speaker 4 (51:04):
That's not her thing as a parent, separating yourself, you know,
from sort of what your work is and how many
lives you have changed.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Is it hard to be like, all right, look.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
I have the crown jewel right here, and if you
don't want it, that's okay, that's your choice.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I mean is it hard to separate? Yes? Yeah, yeah,
even though we.
Speaker 4 (51:28):
Know as parents that's what we're supposed to do, meaning like, look,
here's this charcouterie board of incredible, incredible meats and cheeses
and jams, like you can pick and eat whatever you
want from it.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
I'm a vegetarian, right, but I'm a vegetarian exactly.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
That would be the response.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
I'm not a vegetarian, but no, I know, but that's
exactly perfect to end the analogy.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (51:49):
I mean, you know, it's hard to let go, I
guess because these are the kids that you love more
than anything in the world, you know, and all you
can do is put it out there and they either
take from it or they don't.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Exactly. Yeah, it's that balance between you know, they're grown now,
they are parents. I you know, they have children or
one of them has I have a grandson, and so
it's really a very you know, letting them be the
best that they can be in their own terms, waiting
(52:20):
to ask for advice if it's ever asked for, rather
than giving too much of it. But you know, where
is the balance as a parent between you know, sort
of giving advice and information and you know, and backing
off and letting somebody experience their own life these.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Oh gosh, trying to have sixteen, fourteen, and eleven.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
So you know, you're in the mix of that whole world.
Speaker 4 (52:47):
And yeah, you try not to be too preachy, but
at the same time, it's like I've been through some stuff. Yes,
you know, I'm imparting my wisdom. I know you might
be rolling your eyes, but I know they're listening. Here's
how I know. Just recently, I was out with my
son and a bunch of people, and you know, we
were in Europe actually, just like four three weeks ago,
(53:09):
and he started to talk about how he what he believes,
you know, and sort of from a deeper emotional place
which I've never heard him talk from. And it blew
me away because all of the things that I had
said to him in passing or in trying to sort of,
you know, teach him lessons.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
One way or the other.
Speaker 4 (53:31):
You never think it's going in. It's in and out,
you know. But all of a sudden he starts spouting
off all of this stuff that I have, you know,
hopefully had given to him, and it stuck, and I'm like, oh.
I was very emotional because I was like, holy shit,
this is unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
And it was validation that you know, they do.
Speaker 4 (53:52):
Listen, they do take it in, even if they you
don't think that they do, they do. They sponge it up.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
You are one hundred percent correct. And I had this,
you know, with my own stepdaughter, and she was really
hoping when she saw that my wife and I were
falling in love, and she was hoping that my wife
would get back to with the biological dad, and she
did everything possible to get you know, to get to
get me out of Liz and I not be in
(54:21):
love with each other anymore. And then she was, you know,
but she was breaking up with her first boyfriend, and
they did come to me for help, and so as
I was sharing with them some of these things, she goes, oh,
that's what you and mom do. And it was like,
I had no idea that she was even allowing anything
(54:43):
to enter into her consciousness desire to make sure so
you're You're absolutely right. And I think what you're doing
with your dad will be one of the greatest contributors
to your children's growth and development. To see you make
that connection and as you as you're going through and
(55:03):
sort of getting to be able to appreciate specifically what
your dad is doing and being able to say, you know,
did he how do I feel about him taking this
time out for me from his day? What else could
he be doing that he is making me more important? For?
What is the shame in his life about him not
(55:24):
having contact with me that he has had the courage
to work with and work through and talk with me about.
And there's you know, there's got to be a thousand
things that you that you can specifically hone in to
appreciate about what your dad has done that will both
open him up at another level. And as you share
those things with your children, just give them without giving
(55:48):
them advice, Just share your story and your story becomes
what you just have a few minutes ago.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
That is so true.
Speaker 4 (55:57):
Yeah, because there's a way it's like burying the broccoli,
you know what I mean, Like, you know, making the
broccoli taste really good. Somehow you put it in a
sauce or whatever, and the kids are eating their vegetables
without knowing about it. Yes, similarly, that's kind of what
it is. It's like, don't be so direct. Bury the
message in your life in a tale, in a story,
(56:19):
you know, totally.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
Do you tease your children?
Speaker 4 (56:23):
Oh my god, well beyond anything that potentially is healthy.
I mean, I since they were little, I have messed
with my kids so much so that the gullible is
not even a word in their vocabulary. I can't get
anything by them now. Since they were little, I tease them.
I still tease them, I mean.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
And they tease me. They tease.
Speaker 4 (56:44):
You see how that unity it's a real it's a
real sort of coming togetherness, and how we all kind
of mess with each other, for sure, that's really what.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
So of course, every virtually taken to its extreme, can
become advice, and so I'm not sure teasing can't go
too far.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, you don't want to hurt feelings, you know.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
Well you will sort of hurt feelings, but you know.
Speaker 4 (57:06):
I have, I've done that. I'm like, oh dude, I'm sorry.
I was not trying to do that.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
It's very teasing is like a fruit smoothie you and
with that that can cover up wheat grass. Wheat grass
is the criticism, and the teasing can be like, you know,
you're exaggerating, you're having fun, and you're winking your eyes
and all those types of things, and that allows the
teasing to be the it allows the wheat grass of
(57:32):
the criticism to be taken down more easily. And and
so that's a very valuable thing to do when you
you know, when you and so in the Role Made
to Sell Me book, there's a whole you know, semi
chapter on exactly the dynamics of teasing. And because so
this isn't often a very big misunderstanding between husbands and
(57:53):
wives about what what does you know, my goodness, Jimmy
or Jane, she cried, why would you ever make our
child cry? You know? And so that and what that's about,
and how to balance that and how to communicate to
a mom that might feel more protective to the child
what the value is. But at the same time as
we listen to mom about you know, when she feels
(58:16):
it has gone too far.
Speaker 4 (58:18):
Yeah, well, teasing it within a relationship to a romantic
relationship is foreplay, you know, I mean big time where
they can tease each other and poke each other even physically.
It's it's you know, because you know how that can
sort of escalate to something amazing when you start to
tease that way, you know.
Speaker 2 (58:35):
And then and then one more little thing. It's funny.
It just came to my mind last night.
Speaker 4 (58:40):
My daughter had a little earache and she will put
these drops in and she's just scared.
Speaker 2 (58:44):
She didn't want it in.
Speaker 4 (58:46):
And I was like, her name is Rio, and I'm
like Rio, like it's fine, Like you put the drops in.
I'm sure the spider will just will come out exactly
what I'm like, you know, the spider will fly, They'll
just crawl out. And and she doesn't really cry much
this one and she starts crying. I'm like, I'm sorry,
I'm just messing with you.
Speaker 2 (59:06):
Daddy wanted to pay that. I'm like, I'm just kidding.
There's no spider in your ear, you know right.
Speaker 4 (59:12):
I literally took it too far less.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
And that's take you too far? Is you know that
the next time you do that, oftentimes one of the
experience will be was instead of knowing that you're taking
that to that level, and you have and you're helping
to build resilience in her about about that type of thing.
And so you know the value of being able to
(59:36):
hear criticism from somebody you love and then also play
with It helps people to be able to to take
criticism in. And if you don't teach kids to be
able to take criticism in before they leave the house,
you haven't prepared them to handle the criticism in the
real world. Right and in the real world. What the
(59:56):
more successful you are, the more criticism you will experience.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
For sure. For sure. Explain what the new one is.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
And so the new book is roll Mate to Soulmate,
and it's everything that we've been talking about here, this
caring and sharing experience of being able to hear your
partner's criticism without becoming defensive. Basically set up how you
can do that step by step, and how you can
(01:00:25):
what are the ways of maintaining a conflict free zone
and bringing the concerns you have to a safe place
during the week. How do you go through the process
of appreciating specifically, how do you do the teasing effectively?
Just hundreds of seven to twenty three. It's twenty three
(01:00:48):
love enhancements that I put forward, but seven of them
are the crucials what I call secrets to lifelong love,
and that's all available.
Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
Amazing. I can't wait now I will be reading that myself.
I love these I love these books, you know. I mean,
it's just even if you're reading things that are recognizable
at the theay reinforce and you've dedicated your life to it,
and there sounds like there's a no bigger experts.
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
And this has been amazing. Doctor. I've had a really
good time.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
I've had a wonderful time. And you are so You
give such a gift to the world by having done
the work yourself, with your father having done the work
and therapy being opened about it, being a strong presenting
man but at the same time being vulnerable. These are
gifts both to your kids and also of the world.
(01:01:41):
And so thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
I appreciate that. That makes me feel good. All right, Well,
have a great one, and hopefully are paths cross.
Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
You never know. Let me know if you ever need
me for anything, and I'll be there.
Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
And vice versa.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Yeah, I will.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
I might be.
Speaker 4 (01:01:57):
Calling you in a heap of tears one day. You
never know, all right, buddy, I appreciate it. Okay, thanks man. Wow,
that was great.
Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I mean all we have, really, all we have is love.
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:02:14):
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but it's
just the kind of the truth. I mean, what are
we without love? Love is why is how we survive.
I mean, when you really think about it, good love,
bad love. I'm not saying it's good. It's all good love.
You come into this world and immediately you are surrounded
(01:02:35):
by love or not, and you can pick up on
negative love too, but you're searching and striving unconsciously to
be taken care of. The point is is love and relationships,
Love in sibling relationships, love and friendships. If you are
living a loveless life, then it's not really worth it.
(01:02:58):
So it's about finding love, keeping love, maintaining love because
it fluctuates, it goes up, it goes down, finding love
in nature.
Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Love is all around.
Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Anyway, that was great. I will see you next time.
Thanks Doc, that was a nice conversation. Oliver Hudson out