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June 6, 2024 50 mins

Kim and Penn Holderness are a comedic couple who have racked up billions of views with their viral family sketches.

While they continue creating content for their millions of followers, they are also calling attention to Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder.

While ADHD is often treated with medication, the Holderness family wants to shine a light on the many positives for people with ADHD, like creativity and problem-solving skills.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):

Speaker 2 (00:05):
I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

Speaker 3 (00:08):
We wanted to do something that highlighted our.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are
a sibling. Railvalry.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
No, no, sibling, you don't do that with your mouth, revelry.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
That's good. It is Monday morning. I had a great weekend,
so I'm ready to get into it right now with
Penn and Kim Holderness. We're going to talk about ADHD.
They've done a lot of stuff. I'm not going to
get into all that in this intro, but you know
they're successful sort of digital filmmakers. You know, they won

the Amazing race. They're married. I'm going to get into
you know, if they are. If I've ever almost divorced.
Everyone talks about the good stuff. Oh my god, you're
so happy now No, no, no, let's see. Let's see into
the let's get into the ship and then ADHD. This
is a big topic and I'm excited to talk to
them about all of it. So Pandic can want you
come on in, come on into my layer. Don't let

that word scare you, because a layer can be positive.
You Hang on, honey, hang on, yeah, honey, honey, honey,
chill out, babe, babe, shut the fuck up, honey, just
stop it. I will handle this ship. I know how
to do this. Okay, stop it.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yes, welcome to our marriage.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
I love that those little like arguments, those couple arguments
of small the small ones like babe, micro arguments. Yes, yes, yeah,
but if you're having micro arguments and that said, you're
doing something right.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
You know what I mean aboutely Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah. My wife and I have been married for shit
eighteen years in June June nine, I think it's eighteen.
And uh, you know, we've had our big moments where
you know, it's been gnarly, but only because of certain circumstances.
But as far as the fighting and the bickering goes,
we just never fucking fight. We just never really fight.

But there's little micro things.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
The micro things, and if you do as well, yeah,
if you do tho, well, I do think it avoids
the huge explosions.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
And they're also they're like nature's way of releasing energy,
like hurricanes. You know, if you can get like a
couple of small thunderstorms, then you don't have like a
category five hurricane.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yes, yes, totally. I totally agree with that, you know,
and at the end of the day, like, what's it worth?

Speaker 3 (02:50):
I know that's not the hill I'm going to die
on your phone.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh, I mean, come on, I know you're I know
you've I know you've been late your entire life. So
what am I worried about it.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
I'm such a rule follower that I'm always on time.
So like the rule follower in me would have been,
I would have cried in the therapist's office that my
therapist was disappointed in me. So good on. You have
that boundary perspective, but that would have made me cry
that I disappointed my therapist.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Well anyway, that's no, it's all. It's all one and
the same. But thank you guys for coming on.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (03:26):
This is uh.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm excited to talk to you about a multitude of things,
especially the ADHD conversation, which we can just get into first,
because that's what at the forefront of my mind, because
I've always wondered if I have ADHD. Obviously there's different
degrees of ADHD, and it seems to be a buzz

diagnosis right now, you know, I mean, I'm sure I
have it. It feels like everyone has ADHD to some degree,
you know, but I guess what point does it start
actually affecting your life in a negative way?

Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, that's what it is, right. It's it's interesting that
you say that it seems like everyone's getting it for starters.
You and I are in our upper forties, and it
wasn't a thing growing up. It's almost always diagnosed in childhood,
and there weren't a lot of people who knew what
to look for in the seventies when we were going
through elementary school, and so most of the time people

who are getting diagnosed, you know, our age. Obviously, there
are adults who have found systems and ways to mask it.
The world gets more complicated when you start running your
own business, or if you get married, or if you
start raising a family, particularly if you start noticing that
your family is having difficulties with that executive functioning and
knowing that ADHD is a hereditary you know, it's a

pass down thing. There's a lot of adults who were
taking their kids into doctors and saying, you know, I
think that my child has this, and then they look
at the checklist and they're like, holy crap, I think
I might have it too, m hm.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
And you all work in a great and very creative field.
And so we have found because we do the whole
you know, YouTube video thing, that most of our fellow
creators also have ADHD. So feel like they attract, like
the creative careers sort of attract that brain, which is
a pretty cool brain by the way.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, no one. I mean, you know,
getting into myself for just a second, I feel like, person,
I'm forty seven years old, you know, be forty eight September.
I do consider myself a talented human being. I've made
a nice life for myself as an actor, you know,
a producer. You know, directing is sort of what my

calling is and was and should be. There is a stop,
There's a there's a wall, there's a barrier that doesn't
allow me. Well it doesn't allow me, but you know,
I just can't get over it. There's a there's a
I sort of just get overwhelmed by the idea of it,
which then makes me just completely stop instead of pushing through,

you know and fighting through. And I have I have
that sort of that feeling of I just can't do it,
and I'm just not going to do it. You know,
or it becomes too overwhelming, and I'm assuming that's part
of my ADHD. I don't even know.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
You know, ADHD gets along well with a lot of
other stuff. It gets a long way well, it gets
along well with OCD, autism, anxiety, all of these things. Right,
I've got like, I've got an otter anxiety. I've had
panic attacks. I've never been diagnosed with it, but they're
like really at the center of ADHD is emotional component

is flooding. This emotional flooding where you know, your life
can seem really really amazing and funny, and you may
laugh harder than anyone else on the planet, and everything
around you may look rosy and peachy, keen and wonderful,
and then if something goes wrong or a fear creeps in,
it takes over everything. And it doesn't necessarily last that long,

but it does result in, particularly in childhood and sometimes
into adulthood, some pretty heavy duty mood swings where you
go from you know, blue to red in just a
few minutes. And that's one of the things that we
learned about in the book.

Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, and I would think the procrastination of ADHD, and
maybe that's what you're dealing with. Is the procrastination of
it or just or are you saying it's more of
like a barrier you can't even get started.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Well, there's a lot of procrastination. There is, you know,
a lot of fear of failure, which I think is
probably a different sort of you know, avenue. But a
perfect example is even on Friday, I didn't have much
to do, you know, I didn't have much work to do.
And now I'm sitting around in my house. I'm like, Okay,
I wonder I gotta go do something. I go to

my boat. Maybe you'll fish a little bit. Na, Na,
maybe I'll go over here has traffic. You know, I'm rumining.
I'm going through these things. And then I was just
sitting in my house. I'm like and then i start
to feel like I'm gonna go crazy. I'm like, what
the fuck, Like, go do something. I ended up sitting
in my car and like listening to Howard Stern because
I was just kind of doing something.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
You needed to be doing.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
It was weird. And when I have a list, when
I have a checklist, I like that it's a little
bit easier.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
And now that is an ADHD trade. So by the way.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
We are not doctors.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah not, this is just my personal And by the way,
just before you even go like I'm on lexapro twenty milligrams,
like I have an anxiety since I was twenty years old,
twenty three, I've had major bouts of it. And then
you know, so you know it's all all signs are
pointing to yay. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:48):
First of all, you touched on it a bit like
if you put systems in place to deal with the
stuff that's hard for you. And the thing I always
say about people with ADHD is the hard stuff sometimes
is easy for us, but the easy stuff is really
hard for us. Make a list and get through it,
you know, getting through it. For me, that was like
my first, my first way to really deal with what

was hard for me, mainly because the ability to check
off the things on the list. Is this, like many
dopamine hit accomplishment that I and our brains. If you
have ADHD, you don't dispense and disperse dopamine, well, it
just doesn't. We we don't. We don't know how to
distribute it throughout the brain, and so for that reason
we're always hunting for it. It's why, like I can

get stuck playing a video game. I could start playing
at ten pm and then the sun's coming up and
I so basically have to just like never play video games.
So that's going to happen. But the list is sort
of like it's it's a little mini dopamine hit that
people have, like of all types of ADHD, and there's
a lot of different ones almost universally say is like
a way for them to get through some of their difficulties.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, oh my god, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, this is
so far this interview is making me excited and depressed. Okay,
that's fine because it's well, it's.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, ADHD is souper by the way, I don't have ADHD,
but I'm diagnosed with the anxiety and OCD. So it's
interesting that like we pair up so well, and we
see that in so many people we've met, that like
one partner has ADHD, the other has anxiety, and like
somehow the partnership just sort of work.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
Let me ask you this too, so exactly depressed. I
get that. Are you a little depressed? Because I was
when you're like, oh god, I have to make lists,
like I want to fund it interesting and you're telling
me to make lists, right, Yeah, always bummed me out.
But if you get just past that and realize that
it's going to take you like twenty minutes to do
this the rest of your day, you can be you

and be like a spontaneous guy who randomly breaks out
in song, like I've heard it on your podcast before.
Like you have all of that creativity. That's something that
you can't really teach. And it's point a lot of
people in the entertainment industry have that, and that's also
a byproduct of adhd.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Y are inherently more creative. I mean, there's been studies
and like the adhders are the problem solvers. They think
outside the box and they're like they are more creative people.
So if like the structure we have found in our house,
if the structure is in place, he can go wild
and spontaneous within that, within those boundaries. Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
We'll talk about your story a little bit. I know,
you know, you guys have had millions of people who
follow you and you've wroteen written some cool books. But
my audience, you know, it's like I know it a
little bit, but just give me, give me the overview
of sort of how this came about how you sort
of used this to your advantage to create a life
and a career and all of these things, which is
kind of a beautiful thing. I mean, you're taking something

that is, you know, considered an affliction, which I don't
know if it is unless it becomes extremely detrimental, and
then out of that you made something wonderful. You know.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
Well, thank you for saying that. We were both former
TV news anchors and we made one video ten years
ago with our family dancing around like idiots. Pen is
a musician and he writes music, and so we did
this sort of like dancing video. It went viral. Over
the years, we've kept making videos, but we've branched out

and you know, we had this our second book and
podcast and you know, blogs and you know, all these
different avenues. And over the last few years, I mean,
we did some heavy work and some heavy work on
our relationship and Pen to Adhd my anxiety, but we
did a deep dive to try to understand that because

our son was diagnosed and he just felt very called
to write this book. Adhd is awesome, and I really
do think it is his calling. His dad was a
minister and so he didn't go into the ministry. But
I feel like this is like what he was supposed
to do with his life. Did I summarize that very sweet?

Speaker 4 (13:10):
No, Also, just I wanted to let people know because
we make a lot of comment content about ADHD and
to your point, like quite a few people watch it
and they're like, oh, this is this is great, like
it's not all bad, and I want to put that
into writing. But I also want to make sure people
know the stories about how it sucks. Yeah, because you can't.
It's you can't just be all rosy and sunshine, Like

I almost burned the house down this year.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Did you leave some shit on the on the other
in the stove?

Speaker 4 (13:36):
The stoves, so it's and I was I was trying
to get my kid out of the out of the house,
and I was making breakfast and I've had two stoves,
and then I had the water, and I had the lunch,
and I had the shoes, and then I got him
out the door, and I was a special morning. So
I made bacon and Kim. Kim calls me. She's like
the fire alarms going off. I'm twenty minutes away dropping
off my son. No one's in the house and there's
like a grease fire in our kitchen. So and it's

because my executive functioning, which is one hundred percent of
ADHD let me down and the fact that I was
cooking that bacon completely left my working memory. So like
I did to understand that and find out how to
keep that from happening again.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
How do you feel about medication. I know you're not
a doctor, but not to knock doctors, but I think
sometimes experience almost trump's medical in a sense, meaning a
doctor can be technical and you know, give you the
reasons why, but if you experience it and you have

real life on the boots, boots on the ground experience,
sometimes it's even better. But how do you feel about that?
I mean, I take lexipro for anxiety, you know, not
necessarily depression, but anxiety. And then my kid, Wilder, when
he was little he's sixteen now, but you know, he's
having trouble with math, and they wanted and he'd been

through an evaluation and they wanted to put him on medication,
and I was like, nah, even though I'm on medication,
I was like, he's fucking in first grade, Like there's
ways to figure this shit out, Like let's let him
grow up a little bit and see where he's at.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
You know, I think the thank you for the disclaimer
that I'm not a doctor will say that one more interesting.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yes, yes, I know.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
Clinically speaking, the overwhelming majority of people who have taken
medication for ADHD have responded positively to those symptoms. Right,
but if you use that model, that medical model of
like treating a cold, like if there's something wrong, let's
take some medicine to fix it, that may not be
as effective as looking at like a strength based approach

to how to get through this whole thing, which is
like looking at when your son, you me are like
crushing it and trying to recreate those things, right like
when when am I really good? Is it in the morning?
Why oh is your son like really really smart at
eight am? But he's having trouble at three pm? What
can we do tom in place where he can like
make it through the rest of the day. So to

say that's all that, to say that like there is
a movement toward more of the strength spaced approach to
these to these sorts of things. Personally, I went on
medicine my senior year in college because I was effing
failing out.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
Of school academic probation twice.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, oh really, well well before, but what did you
attribute that to? I mean, obviously you're you're an intellectual person,
You're a smart person. Was it just pure like I
still want to do it? There were a lot of
new distractions beer had I had. I had a mom
who did an amazing job keeping me on track in
high school, and she was nowhere to be found. Beer
is great, beers awesome, Like, honestly, the most one of

the most major things was the fact that I was
in like four hundred person auditoriums and I was sitting
in the back seat right like They're like, I didn't
have the one on one kind of attention. There were
so many distractives from me in the classroom, and I just,
you know, I would just become a wallflower in the
back of that room.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
And I didn't I wasn't absorbing things. So the medicine
really helped me. I went from a C student to
an A student like overnight. And this is just my
personal experience. I didn't love the person that I was. Otherwise,
I like missed these certain quirks.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yeah, okay, get into that for a second, because I
was going to ask that, like, you know, yes it
does sort of benefit you in certain ways, but what
might it take away? And again, this is just a
personal experience. Yeah, I know, because we're not doctors, and
this is just personal experiences, well experience.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
In the brief time that I was on medicine, which
by the way, all of my college roommates stole and
used all the time, and I had more right, my
brain was like a VIP party with a bouncer and
a rope that was able to like let in only
the things that they wanted to let in, like the task, right,
And so it was a VIP party in my head,

and only a few people were invited. And for that
reason I was able to succeed and graduate from a
good school and kind of get to work in my life.
But my regular brain is like an open air like
Coachella Festival. It's there. You can feel the wind. Yeah,
you can ever in fight it. You can feel the
wind in the rain, and you take it all in

and a lot of times that leads to distraction and fixation.
But it's also where all of my inspiration and creativity
comes from, is the ability to have all of this
stuff coming at me and whatever. Genetically the ADHD brain
is also is like that, and I love that. It
just and it just felt like there was it was gone.

And what I did was I found a job, not
a high paying job, but I found a job that
allowed me to get through it without failure, which was
a local news job where you basically have to keep
people interested and if you know, if you don't hook
them after eight seconds, kind of like in comedy, your toast.

And so I found a job like that to kind
of get me through. I found a wife who puts
up with me.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
He puts up with me too.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well, how did you how did you deal with him?
Meaning like of course you get together and it's beautiful,
and you know, there's that honeymoon phase of like, oh
my god, we're so amazing together, like we're going to
fucking conquer the world.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
Nobody is now in love like this before, right, So
all the things that all the things that he's describing,
like he was so spontaneous and funny and charming and
such a goofball, like that's what I fell in love with.
So really, his ADHD brain is what I fell in
love with. When we got married and had kids and

they're you know, and it wasn't just us. That's when
I started to notice, like people would joke and say, oh,
look you have like three kids. I did not laugh.
That is not funny to me. Like he just start
figuring this stuff out.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Examples meaning like leaving shit on the stove type things,
leaving shit on the stove.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
Or like slob and thinking it was disrespectful. Yeah, I think,
I mean just general, just being a slob and or
missing I mean just like being linked to things, missing
things listening.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Listening listening because you didn't have the attention span to listen.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Yeah, okay, yeah, And so when we first started dating,
there was no other distraction. When you add a couple
of kids and a job and there was nothing but
to be fair, again, I have anxiety and OCD, so
he like we have been able to give each other
grace because of that. Like I have my days where

I'm freaking out and he's he steps up. So I
think that's why I am able to offer a lot
of grace when he has his and I see him
doing the work. So in our house, ADHD is an explanation,
is not an excuse. So I see him doing the
work and he feels great shame if he's messing things up.
But our family is not against medication. I am on medication,

so like we are not we are not against medication.
But just for his personal experience.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Was there that critical moment in your relationship where it
was I'm honestly a make or break but it was, well,
we need to figure this out because I love you, you
love me, but why we need to figure out how
to continue in the best way.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
It's funny our first book was a result of marriage
counseling we did, and you were explaining with your wife,
like you have a couple just because of circumstances, you
have some ops bet other than that micro arguments, I
will say, looking back, a lot of the work we
did on communication was because of our neurodiversity. So was

me keeping you know, me holding back because of my
anxiety him, you know, the disorganization and then not listening
because it was adhd I think it was really that
it was the first discovery of.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
That and then also profusely apologizing like that was me.
I was like, what can I do to get back
to being best friends and maybe having sex later? Like
what do I have to do? That was part of
that emotional kind of dysregulation where the world just seemed
awful when my wife was mad at me, and like,
what do I do to like change the mood here,
which is also part of ADHD. HM, you shouldn't do

like that's you can't just if you just profusely apologize
you are, you're basically discounting what your values and opinions are.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
So then through your experience with ADHD, and then I
want to come again to your and sort of your
anxiety a little as well. But but but through your
experience without medication, and I'm asking for myself and then
anyone else who's listening, you know, but lists and then
what are some other you know, sort of ideas to

help you go through, get through the day, you know,
and use your ADHD to your advantage, Use that creativity,
use that that dream like sort of state that I
live in every single second of my life, which I'm
like you, I love it. I mean it's very creative.
I feel like my brain is different and I think different.
I look at life a little bit differently, you know.

But in those moments of desperation, how do you get
out of them?

Speaker 4 (23:10):
So for me, it's been upstream solutions, which means like
I try to cut the problem off before it becomes
a problem. So I set a timer when I turned
the oven on right, and I, like serious, set the
timer for ten minutes. So if I leave the house
after you know, five or six minutes and it goes off,
I'm like, oh, I gotta turn I got to turn
around and go turn the stove off, which I've done before.

I lost three wedding rings, just like not in like
the way that you think that fun way, yeah, but
like I was. I put one on the roof of
my car because I had to put on hair product
because I had to do something on television and then
and then the other two times were like at a
gym or at a tennis court. So I got a
tattoo of my wife's name on my finger.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
I have that too.

Speaker 4 (23:54):
You got the tattoos.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
It's perfect. I over it, but I have a yea
double he's nice.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
So I thin that was the solution to that. I,
like Kim, had a lot of like three AM splashdowns
because I wouldn't put the toilet seat down. It's just
one of those things that you're supposed to remember. Now,
and this is weird, But I just peece sitting down
every time.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Oh oh, by the way, we could do it a
whole other podcast. I'm peeing sitting down. I have done
Instagram videos of this, like I'm sorry, guys, it's my
time to just chill out for a second.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
Like, yeah, I'm a home. Why am I lifting up
to the Let me just sit down and.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Hang for a second.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Just hang for a second.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
What might happen?

Speaker 2 (24:33):
You're exactly I kee sitting down too. I love it.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
He also has a magnet on top of his car.
It doesn't actually hold anything, but it's a visual queue
to not put a coffee cup there, lost a dozen
coffee cups because he'll put it there, or he'll put
something else on top of the car. And that same
magnets on the dry like the washing machine dryer because
he has to take out his inhaler and chopstick before.
So there's like those visual cues. We have friends adults

that struggle with lists, like writing things down, so they'll
take so things and actually print out pictures of like
what a kid's lunch is supposed to look like, right,
and just those like visual cues and reminders mm hmmm,
and so.

Speaker 4 (25:15):
Then also just remember, like because if you're an ADHD
person like me, if these things seem to bum you
out when you're doing them, like oh I do all
this like I have to, you know, make just remember
and tell yourself this. My job is to make weird
videos and go on podcasts. Yeah, that stuff comes with
this stuff, right right, like they they can't exist without

the other one in my opinion, and that has made
it easier for me to work on some of the
other like the things that are more difficult to me
that shouldn't be.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
That's a great point. That's a great point, you know.
I mean it's a trade off essentially. You know, would
you consider yourself severe? Do you have severe? Would you
have severe ADHD? And because I don't even know, I
don't know what the sort of parameters are from mild
to severe.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
I thought it was a pretty scorching case and I
think at times it like I it can flare get
me pretty that. But we've we've done several book tours
and we've met people and spoken to people who have
much more intense uh ADHD and also a lot of
times ADHD that is combined with other types of of
you know, disorders, and so I'm I'm saying not all

to say that I feel extremely fortunate.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
It's a spectrum.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Everybody says, yeah, and then how many kids you have?

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Two seventeen year old girl and fourteen year old boy.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Okay, and and the boy has ADHD, And what about
your girl?

Speaker 3 (26:46):
She does not. We took them through the same testament,
and I thought maybe she would have the inattentive type,
but no, she does not. Know it shows up differently
in women and girls.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Oh it does.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
Oh yeah, it's and that's why women and girls are
under diagnosed as our minorities, and people are under diagnosed. Yeah,
it's a big problem because women with ADHD get It
is so hard for women because there's this expectation that
society has that we are the ones that are supposed
to keep everything together. And if you're a mom with AHD,
it just sucks. So it's it's all the like that

shame and the expectations at it all.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Oh my god, I wish my wife. She's literally sleeping
upstairs right now. That woman is sleep is she's obsessed
with sleep. I mean to the point where it's nuts
and she's bomb crowned pillows. She's she has a fifteen pillows.
I can't see her at night.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
We're the same person. I don't have I don't have fomo.
I don't have fear of missing out. I have bombs.
I hear sleep like yes sleep.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yes, oh yes, oh my god. She does not have
fear missing out. I feel and maybe this is add
I feel like if I take a nap, like I'm
missing something or something is like I need to be
doing something. This is a waste, you know. So she
took the kids to school and then went back to bed.
I'm like, okay, does she like does she have like

the head blackout pillow and then the barrier pillow.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Yes, she can have her own cocoon, like.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
She has the body. She puts one for her arm
so she doesn't queak her neck. She's got a sleep crown,
which is like this pillow that goes over your eyes.
And then she's got like fake eyelashes or little eyelashes,
so she's like kind of sleeping on her back. She
looks nuts like when I look over at her, she
looks like a dead mummy. That's in case in pillows.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
I love it so much.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
But anyway, so she has I think that's why I
was saying, I wish she was here. She has for
sure ADHD.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
Yeah, I mean going back to women. So think about
being a girl and you've got ADHD. And by the way,
you don't just get ADHD. You've got it in your
brain or don't have it. It's what you're born with,
and it's whether it presents itself you know problematically that
that's when you get a diagnosis. But it's a type
of brain, it's not a behavioral that you acquire. And

so as a kid, she probably did a really good
job of internalizing her difficulties. Like all the other pois
were running around in plain sight hyperactive, and the girls
were internalizing and finding ways to cope with their differences,
and so they weren't diagnosed. And then fast forward to
them being a woman and stereotypically in a lot of marriages,
like these poor women who have ADHD have to deal

with sign up genius m emil and like read school
emails and do paperwork and all this crap that no
one with an ADHD brain would ever give a flip about. Right,
And so it's not only is it like super under diagnosed,
but a lot of women feel a lot of shame
that they're not able to get through these things when
in fact they've got this this brain difference. They'd probably

be useful to know that you have.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, a spot on with my wife. The shame part too,
it's like, oh, I just can't do it. I can't
do it. I don't know why it just cause it's
like well you know.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean and some type like maybe it's
helpful to know why, and then you know it's not
an excuse, but just to know why it would be helpful.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah. So with your son, then did you notice something
or wanted to just get your kids diagnosed just because so.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
He was doing a lot of stuff that I was
doing as a kid, like interesting little things like this
is when you have a certain type of impatient ADHD.
You chew on your shirt collar, there's like a big
it's like a wet marks mark. Shame. It's like have
you been running now, been sitting in class trying to focus?
It's actually like it's a way to stave off distraction,

but you just.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
It's just a way to regulate.

Speaker 4 (30:48):
I know.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
There was like weird physical ticks he was having.

Speaker 4 (30:51):
Yeah, that was the first sign for you.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah, and then the emotional side, like the flooding.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
Part, crying easily, yeah, which you know I used to do.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah, we wanted to his emotions and all that, but
it was like a little and then it was fine
until like school became an issue and we needed to
just make sure he was getting a combination so that.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
It wanted to be clear. He's he's super creative and funny, spontaneous,
so he had all that other stuff as well.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
M hm yeah, gosh, no, I know, I mean, and
then you just you work with him, and what's nice
is you know, you have experience and you know the tools,
you know because you've been through it. It's real life stuff.
I mean. Similarly with my son Wilder, you know, in

eighth grade, he went through some anxiety or I had
to keep him home from school for three weeks and
he was like, I don't feel like I'm real That's
what he kept saying at disassociation.

Speaker 3 (31:47):

Speaker 2 (31:47):
And I wasn't afraid because I knew exactly what he
was going through. I lived it, I live it, and
so I worked with him and it was journaling and
he was doing his stuff and trying to meditate. You know.
He eventually came out of it and so far, you know,
it's been two and a half years and he's been fine.

But I knew how to sort of combat it, or
at least, you know, be empathetic and understand sort of
how to hold him both physically and even just emotionally.
You know. So I assume you had the same experience
with your boy. Right, It's like I got you. I know,
I know what this is. I know how to help you.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
I mean the empathy is a really important part, right,
like saying I'm here and I understand what's going on
like that. How important was that for Wilder? Like when
he heard that.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
It was big? Yeah, it was big. Yeah. I mean
I think it made him feel better. It didn't take
away some of these symptoms, but you know, all I
can do it was just to reiterate over and over
how much I understood what he's feeling. And I know
it feels scary, but you have to understand that this
will go away. And you have the power too, like

you can control. Some of it is out of your control,
but you can get it back into control, you know.
And I'm happy he went through it young, because if
he does experience it again in his life, he will
understand it a little bit better, you know. And I
just said, look, you're you're not going to die number one.
I know it feels like you don't exist anymore and
you're someone standing on your chest, but it's just it's

not the case. You know, you have to first understand
that part. You know. I think it helps, and of
course now he ignores me.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
But yeah, and so often anxiety and ADHD are combined.

Speaker 4 (33:33):
There's also some like there's some great you're gonna think
this is crazy, but like part of your anxious kind
of centered brain like it. You're so empathetic and you're
like so caring toward other people because it helps you
feel not only what's going on with you, but like
with other people. And it's one of the things I
really like about you.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
So me, yeah, mm hmm, I can relate to that.
Like I feel a lot, I mean, which explains why
I'm like bawling through you know, sixth grader doing dance routines,
you know what I'm saying. But I do. I feel
a ton and sometimes I feel like it's just a
little too much.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
You know. That is so exciting. I have done something
to where like the work I'm doing with my therapist,
because now we're going to make this about anxiety. Is
that I've just said as a woman, I'm like, it's fine,
it's fine, everything is fine my whole life, and I'll
just have a few panic attacks and then I just
bury everything so I don't feel anything. I don't feel

and it's like, so I'm working on I have to
now if I'm feeling something, i have to name the emotion.
So it's like this hard opposite, like, yeah, it's very strange,
it's very strong.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
How does your anxiety manifest itself? Because everyone's just a
little bit different. You know, mine switched throughout the years
from stomach stuff like throwing up and now I'm able
to go outside to not being able to breathe, to
that disassociation.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
You know, I've definitely associated. I just I'll be in
weird places. I was on Whole Foods looking at you know,
spaghetti sauce and called pen and I just like walked
away from my grocery cart and I got in the car.
I'm like, I'm not I'm not doing today. Today's not doing.
So I'll have like very strange cues and then my
body and nervous system just shut down. I just shut down,

and I don't talk. I just and then he's amazing
and wonderful. He kind of handles the day and then
the next day we'll be better. But since I had
to say, I got back. I got off of meds
for a long time and I got back on meds
and it's been better. Yeah, but I don't. I don't talk.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
He'll try to talk to me, and I'm like, we're
not talking about this. So if I talk, I get it.
It's like even worse. If I talk, it's just strange.
But I don't feel.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
You'll talk on your own time. I've learned that.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, but I don't, like, don't ask me about it.
So very strange.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
And it's hard to about it. Like you're doing a
great job talking about.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
It because he had because he's somebody else's got it.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
But like, oh yeah, see's funny because I was the opposite.
I would love to talk. I just talk, talk, talk, Like, yeah,
I feel this way, like I'm fucked up, Like I
can't go out of my house and I feel like
I'm gonna throw up. This is my twenties. Like I
would I would go surf, you know, because I didn't
want it to keep me. I don't want it to
have its hands around my neck. I'm like, I need

to go live my life. So I would force myself
to get in the water and surf or do whatever
and feel like I'm going to die while I'm paddling
into a wave.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
I'm just like, I think that's way healthier. I'm kind
of jealous that you were able to do that. I
just shut down and I couldn't even move. That's that's
pretty cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
I mean I had the kids, you know, and then
I later in life, I had a major about like
three years ago because I went off of my Lexapro
trying to wean off and I had that withdrawal symptoms.
That just threw me for a loop.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
I mean, why do you want to wean off?

Speaker 2 (36:47):
I don't need to know. I was just like, you
know what, I've been on this for a long time now,
Like I feel.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
Good, like you felt good, therefore you wanted to.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
See Yeah, yeah, I guess I don't know. It was
a strength.

Speaker 4 (36:59):
It was this A dog recommended weaning low.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
No. I mean I went through the doctor to wean off,
but I was just like, I think I'm all right, like,
let me just see what feels like to not be
on this stuff anymore. And then it was just a
summer of insanity. We spend the summers in Colorado, and
you know, we're big mountain bike family. The kids downhill
are flying through the air, and I liked the mountain
bike two and it's just fishing and biking and golf

and I had to be a dad. So I was
just waking up every morning like holy shit, and going
to the mountain and mountain biking and coming home and
then like having a few panic attacks and like losing
I mean, it was a rough summer. Ended up getting
a gig that had to go to Albuquerque for so
I said, look, I need to function now. I cannot

go to Albuquerque and be on set and be this way.
So I went back on. And now it's been a
few years and I'm just gonna just stay on.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
I got off of medication for probable eight years, and
then only recently did I get back on. I was like,
but I was white knuckling it through life, like everything
was hard. And I finally said to myself, like why
am I doing this? Like why so I'm on it
forever or some version of it forever.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, I know it doesn't matter. I don't know. I
mean I felt that, I felt that there was some
you know, it was taboo a little bit. I'm like,
I don't want to be on anti depressant, Like what
does that say about me? You know? And I got
over that pretty quickly and now I'm able to talk
about it.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
Yeah, I feel like I wanted to be able to say,
like I could do this myself, Like there is a
little bit of shame if like I'm a little bit
like my anxiety brain goes to if there's a zombie
apocalypse and I can't get my medicine, like, what's going
to happen? And then I have to say, well, if
there's a zombie apocalypse and I can't get access to
this medicine, I have bigger problem. But like definitely, yeah, anyway, I.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Would think so.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
Way first to surrender, I'm I'm not going to fight
the zombies. Just take me interesting to use the resources
for like the young and strong.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
What's nice about the zombie thing is, you know, you
turn into a zombie, you don't die, so that would
probably take away your anxiety. It'll just be a zombie
and then you know, then you don't have anxiety anyway,
I know cured. So maybe right this is what we
need to conquer our anxieties. A zombie apocalypse should do it.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
Sorry, it definitely takes a lot of responsibility off of
your plate.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
That's kind a very strange direction. I followed it.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
No, no, no, you got to know you're talking to
I am a strange direction. So how is this so
if you guys have just learned to operate together, this
is really interesting conversation because someone with anxiety OCD and

then ADHD, there's a lot of acronyms going on in
your relationship, you know, and so you know, I guess
there's a comfort in that in a strange way.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
Well, definitely, now that we've learned what's going on with
the other person, like, we're able to empathize with them
in a way that maybe a neurotypical person wouldn't be
able to do. It's a great explanation. I think we
both have this mantra that our brains like are an explanation,
but it's not an excuse, Like if I keep forgetting

stuff and I'm like, oh sorry, ADHD, here's the book,
like right, like you need to definitely work your ass
off to make sure that not that it'll never happen again,
but maybe it'll happen less.

Speaker 2 (40:41):

Speaker 4 (40:41):
I mean, I don't want to speak for Kim, but
she's like, because of this journey we've gone on, she's
been super self aware of when she's struggling. And as
far as it is to talk about it, you have
talked about it. Yeah, and that brings us closer together.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
I think, Yeah, but it is it is a weird
thing that we are a husband and wife, that we
work together and have stayed married and are pretty well.

Speaker 2 (41:06):

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah, and I think we learned that the research in
this this book. I learned so much about the ADHD brain.
I used to get deeply offended by some by some
of the stuff he was doing, and now I realized, like,
it's not really his fault, and so like it defended
up some of my anxiety quirks. I mean, that would
be the same thing, the.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
Same thing I wouldn't remember. I was like, why can't
you stop and smell the roses? Like, why can't you
just be something awesome just happened? Why can't we celebrate?
I didn't get it.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Yeah, I mean aren't you happy right now? And I'm like,
I just need a minute.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
I know. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. We
get we can we can get impatient. Yeah, we can
get impatient.

Speaker 3 (41:45):

Speaker 2 (41:46):
So the what's the book? Just what's the book called? Again?
It's called ADHD is awesome. The human condition, to me
is the most interesting thing.

Speaker 4 (41:57):
What is the human condition? I've heard that before, like,
what is this?

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Being a human is just just to me, it encompasses everything,
just the way that we are all made up of
the same sort of flesh and blood and organs, but
our conditions and how we live and operate through life
are all different. Our afflictions. Everyone is afflicted. We're all
fucked up a little bit, you know what I mean.

That's just the way it is. And even when you
go get into the parenting realm, you know, I'm a
product of divorce and I have a stepdad who is amazing,
and you know, but it's definitely affected me my childhood,
you know, which in turn through relationships and work and careers.
I think when it sort of rears its head the most,
when your insecurity sort of you know, flourished or become embellish,

is when you are in love, loving situations, work situations
where your self esteem sort of comes into play and
just has sort of how you deal with them. And
I just love that we all have we all have
our things. And I also have said this a million
times on this show, but I don't think it's about
if we screw up our kids. It's just to what degree,

because we're all doing our best, you know what I mean,
We're trying to do our best. I had a conversation
with my teenager when he started to become a teenager.
And he's my first one, your first I haven't experienced
it yet, right, and so he's going through whatever he's
going through, and I'm trying to navigate this new world
of parenting, which you do have to switch a little bit.

And I said, look, it was it was a situation
or some sort of a fight or whatever went down.
I said, look, Wilder, I said, I'm doing this for
the first time as well, so I'm not going to
do it right, and neither of you, and you know,
I'm trying to navigate this with you. So I will

definitely apologize if I do something or if I feel
like I've done it wrong, but it's all about us
sort of being gentle with each other and you know,
just trying to get through this sort of time, just
admitting to him that I don't know what the fuck
I'm doing yet. You're you're number.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
One, remember this. Yes, we have all screwed up our kids.
We don't know how. We're going to find out in
a couple of years they're going to be like, this
is what you did wrong exactly, that's gonna happen totally.
But also you've already done like four or five incredible
things that have steered your kids in the right direction,
and you don't know what that is either, right, All
this like huge unknown and at some point like your

your kids are going to come back and say, remember
when you did this, like that made me this?

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yes, so true, never thought of that way. That's the optimism,
that's the optimist. Yeah, it is just really quickly. The
book The ADHD is awesome. So awesome is used in
two different ways, meaning it's amazing, and it's also the
word awesome can be interpreted as not negative, but like, no.

Speaker 4 (44:53):
It's in the definition it's terrified, right, awesome terrifying if
you read it. If they use the word awesome in
the Bible, and I'm not trying a Bible thump here,
but it's like it's something that scares the shit out
of everybody. So that like that that is like awesome
has two meanings, but both of them mean pretty powerful
and a lot of times difficult to comprehend. So that

traditional definition of awesome does a great job of explaining

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Just by the way, I ESPN is on in my
house twenty four to seven, so.

Speaker 4 (45:25):
That's yeah, I believe. Yeah, the PGH anyway, So I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
I just the PGA Xander winning that I'm so happy for.

Speaker 4 (45:35):
I did everything but stuck the landing on that though.
I felt like I was really crushing it, and then
I called it ESPN.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
I love ESPN. Are you crazy? Adhd? Esp Both are awesome? Well,
I honestly I can't wait to get into your book.
I mean that is.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Well, make sure I'm sorry you don't have it.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Sorry, no, I will, I will. I'm going to get it.
But but you know, rarely on podcasts you like learn
enough a lot about yourself. But this has been really
cool for me because I've always suspected, never really needed
or felt like I had to go get diagnosed, because
I kind of already know, like, yeah, there's something weird.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
You know.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
I love who I am, but there's definitely things that
I wish I could break through. You know. I think
the lists are great for me. I know that when
I do make a list and I fucking check that
shit off. And you said that dopamine hit, that's so
spot on because the minute you're under reminders and you
go and it disappears, you're like, that's okay, here we go,

here we go. And then it's four o'clock and the kids,
you pick up the kids or whatever, and now your
day is a You've had a fruitful, accomplished day, and Okay,
this feels good. You know. I think that's huge for me.
And I think even from a creative place. And tell
me if I'm wrong here, but you know, I think

a gift that I have is I'm a great writer. Okay,
I just don't do it because again, there's an overwhelming
sort of thing for me. Yeah, I procrastination, it gets
too big, what if it's not good enough. I definitely
am a perfectionist when it comes to those things. Instead
of just regurgitating everything out onto a page and then
fine tuning it. But I've been setting half hour note

put us out yeah yeah, yeah, where it's like just
sit down for half an hour and write. I mean,
even if you don't do anything, it's in front of
you like this. And then if it goes beyond that, great,
but at least you're giving yourself a half hour to
sort of do something, you know.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
Yeah, that's kind of my magic amount as well. And
I just call the micro deadlines like I need I
want to get two pages done in at thirty minutes
is a good example. Yeah, and then stopping and taking
as much time as you want to in between. Sometimes
you get done and you're like, okay, this is working.
Let's let the timer again, or be dental gentle on
yourself and say I'm gonna check this out in a

week or so. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Yeah, well you guys, this was awesome, I mean really
really fun. Are you in La.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
No, we're in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Oh lucky. I want to get out of LA. It's
so over.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
We were there last week though.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Born and raised. Ready to go, but my kids are ingrained,
my kids are here. It's it. We're done.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
LA is wonderful and we love it so much. But
I will say there's a lot of people in our
neighborhood who have moved from La.

Speaker 4 (48:26):
Oh yeah, across the country.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Oh it's crazy. I mean, if our kids weren't so
into it, girl my books was a girlfriend and they
just you're home. Yeah, I'm done, We're done.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
You're there.

Speaker 4 (48:40):
So La is awesome.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
It is, it is, it is, it is. I just
the traffic and I need space. I want space. I
want to I want to land, I want to look out.
I want to be in the mountains you know.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
Yeah, well hopefully with you in the mountains one day.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
Yes, yes, well, thank you guys so much. This is awesome.
I can't wait to read your book for real. I
think it will. I think it'll be good for me,
I really do.

Speaker 4 (49:03):
We'll get it to you and we'll get you an
audible as well, because I'm in both versions. But the
book itself is like it's got a lot of visuals
to it. So that's yeah. I love that.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
I can't wait. Okay, thank you so much, Thank you guys.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Thanks, thanks all right.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Well, I learned a lot about myself. I and totally
fucked up now. I uh, I think I have adhd
God damn it. I think I have ADHD. I think
my son does. I think my wife does. Yesterday, it's funny.

I was with my son with Bodie and he's like, Dad, like,
I think I'm like nuts, Like, what does you mean
he's fourteen? He goes, I just think I'm like crazy,
like I'm always talking to myself and being weird. And
I'm like, well, yeah, I mean you're a Hudson dude,
like this is just what we do, and maybe you
are nuts. I mean we all were all nuts, so

I don't know. Maybe maybe my entire family is completely
crazy and uh and that's just the way we are. Anyway,
that was great, Thank you guys for coming on and
doing that. And I'm out, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go.
I love you. Yeah,
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