Revel In It: Are You Attached?

What is your attachment style? That's the question expert Dr. Judy Ho is here to answer.
Is clinginess learned early? Can you be a mix of all six attachment styles and how do you BREAK a cycle learned early in life?Oliver asks it all in this deep dive into human attachment.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
We wanted to do something that highlighted our.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are
a sibling railvalry, No, no, sibling.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
You don't do that with your mouth, vely, that's good.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
This is Oliver Hudson. Uh. And I'm hungry. Oliver Hudson
is hungry. This is what's happening right now. We have
a guest in the waiting room, and I'm starving. But
you know what, I'm gonna fight through it because this

(01:00):
is what champions do. They fight through the pain. They
persevere when things get tough. Any obstacle that comes in
their path gets annihilated because of the strength and fortitude
that the champion has to make everything great. And that's

(01:24):
why my hunger is going to be set aside. Okay,
I am going to ignore it and I am going
to give an incredible interview. But as you're listening to
this interview, know that Oliver Hudson is hungry as fuck. Okay,

(01:48):
So I want you, the audience, when you were listening
to me talk to doctor Judy Hoe that I'm starving,
but I'm very excited about Judy. Doctor Judy. She has
a new book out. It's called The New Rules of Attachment,
How to Heal your Relationships, repairing you're in a child,

(02:11):
and secure your life vision. It's about the attachment theory,
which I think a lot of you guys know about
a lot of people do. I kind of do. My
sister in law knows a ton about it. I think
there's four of them. I'm gonna have her explain all
this because you know, I don't know what the hell
I'm talking about. But warning, I will be talking about

(02:33):
the Hoffman Institute again because there's a lot of similarities here.
I know those who have listened to this podcast, you
know know that I talk about it all the time.
So just trigger warning. The Hoffman Institute will be brought
up again. I don't want anyone to sigh, oh god
again it's relevant. Okay, that being said, let's bring on

(02:57):
doctor Judyo.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
How are you.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
I'm good? What's going on? Oh? Not much?

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Not much? Thanks so much for having me on the podcast.
Super appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
No, I'm very excited. I'm very excited to talk to you.
I know everyone says that on a podcast. Oh my god,
but I actually am. And I'm gonna start this off
by saying that I know you know about sort of
what you've been doing with this what's called attachment not therapy,
attachment theory, attachment theory. Yeah, and I didn't know much,

(03:30):
but I read Okay, I'm sure you might have heard
of a place called the Hoffmann Institute, have you? Yeah, Okay,
So I went, okay, and it was an incredible seven
days of my life. You know, it really was life
changing for me as far as understanding patterns, negative love

(03:51):
patterns that have come up and you know, we're there
since childhood and even starting from birth, getting to the
root of it, finding compassion, finding forgiveness because at the
end of the day, it is generational, it is passed down.
And without getting into my whole experience, which everyone on

(04:12):
this fucking podcast has heard about, because I talked about
the Hoffman Institute done, it really reminded me of some
of the things that I experienced, you know, at at Hoffman.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Mm hmmm, that's really interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, So explain it a little bit for those who
don't know what attachment theory is, and then I want
to briefly go through all four of them, and then
at the end, I want you. I want you to
analyze me the entire time we're talking. Okay, are a therapist.
I've been in therapy all my life. And then I

(04:47):
want you, through my stories and my whatever I'm talking,
I want you to tell me which one I am.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Oh, my gosh, I love it. Okay, great, that sounds good.
So first, just a quick primer on attachment theory. Okay, So,
attachment theory was initially developed by doctor John Bolby. It
was later expanded upon by one of his students, Mary Ainsworth,
And this was probably about sixty or seventy years ago
when they came out with these findings, and they were

(05:14):
studying babies and toddlers and seeing how they responded to
separating from their primary caregiver, being with their prime gary geargiver,
being in a totally new environment, and how they would fare,
would they play, would they engage people they didn't know,
And so they put all these different permutations on these kids,
who were probably anywhere from six months to about three

(05:35):
years old, and they found that even in this very
very early time, there were very distinct patterns that would
emerge based on the quality of the relationship and the
bond with a primary caregiver. Later on, this was expanded
to other primary caregivers. This doesn't have to be one person,
could be two, or three or four. And also they
study children who were older four years, five years, six years,

(05:56):
and a lot of times it was the same attachment
style that they had earlier in life. And essentially it's
a way that you express not only your ideas about yourself,
even at that young age, even through behaviors, but it
was also a way to express your beliefs and other
people and whether or not you think that people would
be there for you or you had to fend for yourself.

(06:17):
And obviously, as babies and toddlers, we can't bend for ourselves.
So you can imagine how dysregulating it could be for
a child if they feel like, hey, nobody in the
world really cares about me. And some of them developed
these ideas at a very very early age in life.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Mm hmm. Wow. Okay, so you can never do it
right though, Are you a parent.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yes, I'm a parent.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Ok.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, you can never do it right.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
You can never do it right, No such thing. Yeah,
I always say this. I say it's not about it's
not about if you fuck up your kids. It's about
to what degree, you know what I mean? Like, uh huh.
I come from, you know, a broken home. My dad
left when I was five. Mom was single for a while,
she dated, did not like her dating. But then Kurt

(07:06):
came into my life and bay and raised me. He's
my father. We call him pah, but he's my father.
Things are really well good with my dad, telds maybe
eleven or twelve, and then it just went off the rails,
you know, and then he wasn't there and for whatever reason,
it just didn't it didn't happen, and it was not
the best situation, you know, in the way that he
was handling shit. Now things are good. Strangely enough, we

(07:30):
have in the last five years sort of reconnected and
you know, I'm forty seven and he's, however old, he
is now in his seventies, so there's been a nice reconnection.
So I'm I have been in you know, therapy, and
I've learned a lot about myself. But how often do

(07:51):
you see when you are diagnosing or when you were
in your when you are in you know, in your
therapy sessions, someone who is on the floor, one which
I want to go through them. The fourth one is
almost like, hey, you're good, right, yeah, right, what's right?
What's the fourth one?

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Called secure attached?

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Secure attachment? That's so great? Everything is perfect, right you
should be yeah, exactly, not really right, but let's go through.
Let's go through the four because there's four of them, correct.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yes, that's right. Yeah, okay, so there's three insecure attachment
styles and one secure attachment style, so already the odds
are not in your favorite, Like, no, seventy five to
eighty percent of people are going to be insecurely attached, right,
so anyway, and those are only the ones who are
being honest. I think there's probably some people who believe
they're securely attached, and then you ask their partner, or

(08:41):
you ask their sibling, or you ask their family, they're like,
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, before you even get into that, I mean, yeah again.
Doing this podcast, it's called sibling revelry, and my sister
can't be here right now. But the sibling dynamic is
so interesting, huge because the two siblings, say let's say
there's two they can be raised by the same exact
parents in the same exact way, but the perception is

(09:06):
totally different. And we've noticed that through all of the siblings.
One might think, oh, dad was great and the other
one was like, no, he was not. He was a
hard ass, and I'm fucked up because of him. Mm hmmm,
you know what I mean. So exactly, it's interesting that
the theories. Yes, it's almost like so individual uh huh.

(09:27):
You know, because your parents could be like, no, I
did the same thing with your brother, and he has
secure attachment, but you all of a sudden have an
anxious attachment, Like how's that possible?

Speaker 2 (09:38):
One hundred percent? Yeah. So you and I are both
the older siblings. I have a younger sister mm hmm,
and again grew up in the same home. I mean,
I don't think we were treated exactly the same. I
do think that there was some difference in the way
we were treated, but other than that, our family environment
was pretty much the same, and we were put into
the same classes. We did the same like music classes, right, like.
We were all afforded the same kinds of extra curriculars

(10:00):
and whatnot, inexposed to obviously the same people. My sister
and I are totally different, We're so so different, and
that caused a lot of grief when we were younger.
Now I think it's bonded us in a way. But
we talked about our own attachment styles and how that's
so weird that we grew up with essentially the same
ingredients and then we're just completely apart, you know, just

(10:23):
totally apart. So, yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
That's that's so crazy. Yeah, it's like the same ingredients,
but the cakes are completely different when they come out
of the oven.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
A hundred percent. I know. Yeah, if you talk to
my sister, I mean, she went through a phase where
she was like involved in gangs and junior high and
you know, I mean she got kicked out of schools,
like she was kind of quote unquote the black sheep
of the family. Now she's a professional poker player. She
obviously put that to good.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Really, yes, who what's her name?

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Her name's Maria Hoe. So she's been in the industry
for a while, like almost twenty years in professional.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Post Because I played, I was a crazy poker player.
I mean I play the World Series of Poker. If
you google Oliver Hudson World Series of Poker in two
thousand and five, I do you know, do you Because
your sister plays. Do you know poker? Menimi?

Speaker 2 (11:11):
And I know poker pretty well because of my sister.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah. So the way it works is there's you know, however,
many people. There was a featured table that they put
onto ESPN and it was me and Dan Granu, a
guy named Sam Farha and Bobbo and I was at
the fucking feature table on ESPN.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Oh yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Firsthand firsthand, and I'll let you watch it. I want
to explain the whole hand because people will like get bored. Firsthand,
I go broke, everything goes in the middle on the
first hand and I am out on a horrible, horrible,
horrible beat where if you watch it or your sister
will I guarantee your sister knows this. I guarantee she

(11:53):
does because it's one of the most horrible beats that
has been around.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
Tell me, tell me the hand you had.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
I had pockets, Sammy far had he had ace ten. Okay, oh,
come on, yeah, the flop comes ace ten. Oh no,
that's basically all you need to hear now, And the
announcers are like, oh my god, it's the first hand. Yeah,

(12:21):
and the only thing that could have slowed me down
was a queen came on the turn, and so I'm like, oh,
he could have had ace queen because he raised me probly,
he raised pre flop pre flop. Yeah, of course, but
he's a very loose player. Anyway. I don't want to
get all the weeds because people are talking about but
but I could have slowed down on the turn, but

(12:42):
there was no way. My money wasn't going all in
the middle, you know at some point in that hand, right,
And then I played in a bunch of WPT events,
like I had a huge poker room. I mean, I
was obsessed. Oh my gosh, I love that sidetracked No,
but no, but no, but that was.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
That was actually very very interesting because I'm like, of course,
of course you were going to go in with everything
you had, because you're like, I got a full house, baby,
Like what ridiculous? Yeah, no, oh no, oh my god,
that is like the worst thing, the worst. And of
course obviously pre flop you had the odds in your favor,
so yeah, everything was going right, you know, so wrong,
so wrong anyway. Yeah, So my sister, So, my sister

(13:20):
was I think it was two thousand and seven maybe
where she made it to she was like the last
woman standing in the World Series of Poker's main event.
So anyway, she's been doing that for a long time.
And yeah, we just I mean, we went totally different
ways in terms of our careers. But then again in poker,
she used the psychology, so I was like, I actually
think we are probably much more like than we would

(13:42):
like to think. But we definitely developed different ideas about
people in relationships from a very young age. I noticed
the difference right away, and those differences have still kind
of bore out as we grew all into Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
All right, so let's go. Let's let's go down the list,
let's go into the flour let's do it.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
So the first insecure attachment style is anxious attachment. I
think that most people feel familiar with this because people
talk about it like kind of just like a very
regular topic, like, oh, I'm kind of anxious in this relationship,
but I'm anxious attachment, et cetera. You see it a
lot on social media too. You know. The prototypical anxiously
attached person is that they're a people pleaser, and they're

(14:27):
more prone to codependency because their self esteem rests on
what other people think about them. And this type of
attachment style can come up when you've had parents who
maybe were inconsistent in ways or made you feel like
you weren't sure when you were going to get affection
from them. And of course this is not to blame parents'
parents are dealing with their own shit all the time. Right,

(14:47):
Like we talked about, there's no way that you're going
to be a perfect parent. So in this pass down
generationally what they experience from their parents. So ninety nine
percent of parents out there are not blatant abusers that
are trying to screw up their children. It's like they're
trying their best, but they got their own stuff right. So,
but either way, anxiously attached people when there were babies,
when toddlers, they realize, oh, I'm not exactly sure when

(15:08):
my mom or dad are going to be around for me.
So then they start to grow into this idea that
they have to always be checking on and be validated
by people or also not sure where they're standing is
so they have a harder time doing individualistic things. They
kind of feel like they have to be in some
kind of relationship or have people around them all the time,
and that leads to codependency behaviors, because hey, if you

(15:28):
support somebody and help them, then maybe when you need help,
they'll be there for you. Right, But over time you
start to believe that maybe you're not as important as
other people. So that's the anxious attachment stack coy. Okay,
they avoidantly attached. I think a lot of people see
that almost like as the opposite spectrum. So this is
the person who's more of a lone wolf. They pride
themselves in being a lone wolf. They're pretty driven. Usually

(15:51):
they're very ambitious. They might identify themselves as a workaholic
and they wear that like a badge of honor, and really,
deep down it's because they don't really trust other people
to take care of them, so they feel like they
have to do everything on their own. And sometimes this
comes from parents who maybe showed their most affections with
them when they were achieving something or doing something that

(16:13):
felt like a goal. Sometimes it would be that the
parents maybe shut them down when they were trying to
express emotions, maybe in a way to try to help
them cope, but it made them feel invalidated for talking
about their feelings, like well, you shouldn't think about that,
or well, why are we talking about this, Let's stop
talking about it. Or maybe they seemed to overwhelm when
they express their emotions. So anyway, as they grow older,

(16:33):
they start to not want to talk about their feelings also,
so they get a little bit uncomfortable with intimacy. It
really has to be at their pace, and when they
are feeling stressed or troubled, they just they just go away,
like they don't tell anybody. They just kind of hide away,
and so nobody really knows what's wrong with them because
they don't show that to the world. But obviously over

(16:54):
time that can cause distress in a different way.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh my god, that's so. That one is crazy because
the minute you sort of talking about it, this one
friend popped into my mind and then you literally ran
the list like who he is? And it's crazy. I mean,
it was like to a T to a T. I
keep going, this is so interesting, It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Okay, Okay. Then there's disorganized attachment, which I think is
the most misunderstood of the three. Insecure attached. When you
look at social media or look at online articles, they
seem to think that it's a combination of the anxious
and the avoidant I think that there are people who
are combination types. So I actually think that if that's
how you feel, you're not disorganized. You're probably just running
the spectrum of anxious and avoidant. And sometimes it happens

(17:36):
in different situations or with different people, But I think
the hallmark sign of the disorganized attached person is that
they constantly feel like they're in fight or flight. So
fight or flight is an awesome adaptive response, but it's
only meant to be used sparingly. It's not meant to
be that you're in chronic stress all the time, right.
And the problem with somebody who is disorganized attached is
in their childhood there might have been a lot of chaos.

(17:58):
There may have been even for abuse or major traumas,
and so the person feels like, why can never be safe?
I always have to be watching my back? And so
their entire life is like that. It's like there's always
a suspicion that something is going to go wrong, the
other foot's going to drop. If things are too calm,
they inevitably will draw up chaos somewhere because they're more

(18:18):
comfortable with that and it's familiar to them. They're a
little hot and cold in relationships because they go between, hey,
I can maybe settle in and really relax around this
person too. Wait, no, like there's something bad that's going
to happen, and I had better just preempt it by
creating the problem myself first. And again, a lot of
this is not in a conscious way. So I think

(18:40):
that oftentimes their own beliefs is that people can't be trusted,
but they also don't particularly love themselves, so there's kind
of like a low self concept. But also when they
look at other people, they think that other people suck too,
So like it's a kind of a terrible mind state
to live in, right, because you're kind of probably yeah,
more pessimistic, probably than the average person. So that's the

(19:01):
disorganized type, okay, Yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Then the one the golden the golden child, the golden child, which,
of course, as we talked about, is the minority.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
But I think the securely attached person is that generally
they had parents who were pretty present, who didn't you
tell them to shy away from their negative feelings, but
also did not define them specifically by their achievement. It's
kind of like, we value you no matter what, even
if you make a mistake. We might be upset about
the mistake, but we love you. So generally, they're pretty

(19:33):
consistent in their parenting. They're generally available, especially emotionally, And
so then these adults grow up and it's not that
everything is perfect. That's the ridiculous saying. Nobody's that way.
But it's more that they just have a little bit
more self confidence than the other types. They generally believe
good things should happen to them, that they deserve it,
and when they are pressed in a stressful situation, they're

(19:56):
just a little bit more resilient than the other types.
So they're just more flexible, so they can be independent,
but they can also rely on other people and not
feel like, well, what is this person going to think
about me? Are they going to see me as a burden?
You know, they just don't get caught up in thoughts
like that as much. But a securely attached person obviously
they have their blind spots too. It's just that overall
they're a little bit better equipped to deal with life,

(20:18):
and their self esteem tends to be stronger even when
there are toxic people around them. Even when they come
across difficult situations, they're able to be more stable in
terms of how they feel about themselves.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
A couple of things. So interesting. Number one is, first
of all, you kind of hit on it, m hmm,
that you can have a combination, right are you? Or
are you always leaning more towards one or can you
be a combination because now you're dealing with sort of
how you grew up, so you can't. I mean, I

(20:54):
guess you can, but to grow up along that spectrum
of the four seems difficult. I mean, they'll be all
over the place, right right, But there are combos I assume.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, And I think the combos come from a couple places.
One is, if you had a different kind of relationship
with one primary caregiver versus another, you could develop like
a combination type of sort. So you could be, for example,
mostly securely attached because your dad provided that kind of
basis for you, but your mom was the one that
was kind of inconsistent. So there's a part of you

(21:25):
that's anxious, but that doesn't really come out except when
you're in a romantic relationship. So like at work, you're
pretty much secure. With friendships, you're pretty much secure, But
then when it comes to dating, like that's where that
anxious attachment kind of shows up. So that's that's the
most common way that I see the combinations manifesting is
that it's not all across their life at all times.

(21:46):
It's more like one major area of life they seem
to be more insecure, and then maybe the other areas there.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, I mean yeah, personally right, like from a social place,
from walking on the earth and being around people. I'm
very confident, you know what I mean. My self esteem
is through the roof. I know that I'm a likable person.
I know that I can have good conversation. You know,
I can be charming. I can do all of these things.

(22:16):
My lack of self esteem comes from work interestingly enough,
not thinking or feeling that I'm good enough, you know,
in my occupation, because my sister's huge and my parents
are huge, and my by the way, my career has
been incredible. I've made money and everything's good, but I
just don't feel good enough. It's like, oh, everyone thinks
I'm bad. I'm probably I'm the worst factor here, you know.

(22:40):
Or The other thing too, for me is almost it
gets directing is something that I'm passionate about producing, which
is what I do as well. There are talents that
I have that I look at and it's just so
overwhelming to even try to get there that I don't

(23:02):
even try, you know what I mean. And the minute
that I sense any failure, I'm just or any negative thing,
I might forget it. You know. Yeah, if my work
ethic was better, I would be very, I mean so
much far along on a personal level of where I
would want to be, you know, But I just sort

(23:22):
of cut it off. So I have a little bit
of both of that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right right? You get so reinforced by those areas where
you are one hundred percent certain at least in your
own self perception of your competence in them, that it's
so easy for you. And there's so many people who
they would be finding those situations were difficult, like talking
to people they don't know, like, you know, feeling like
people accept them and like them, et cetera. But that

(23:50):
whole idea of being held back in certain ways in
your career, and like you said, you've had a phenomenal career.
You are having a phenomenal career. However, there's always that
thought of, oh, but there was a couple of missed
opportunities like if I had just pushed harder and went
for like where could I be now? And it makes
it makes so much sense. But also that is like

(24:10):
the true mark of a perfectionist too, Like anybody else
who looks at it'll be like, I don't really know
what you're talking about, but it's really the most important
thing is how you're feeling about it, right, It's like
that's your interpretation and that's your perception, and it does
affect how you think, and it does affect maybe future
things that might kind of provoke those same feelings, and
you're like, oh no, like I'm finding myself back in

(24:32):
that pattern again of like not being sure and like
maybe I should have just done it, like why didn't
I know?

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, or then have the perseverance to push through. Yeah,
you know, it's like just fucking do it, yeah, you know,
because perfectionism is definitely, uh strangely a part of this
equation for me, but you would no one would ever
look at me and say, oh, Oliver is a perfectionist
because I'm a very free spirited person who's kind of

(24:57):
all over the place, you know what I mean. But
there is a piece of me that is perfectionist. Where
if it doesn't, if it's not perfect, like fuck it,
I can't.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Do it right right well totally. And that's why I
think sometimes people say, well, why why didn't this person
do this or why not? And it's like, sometimes what
holds us back or what leads us to procrastinate or
don't hit something as hard as we could is the
fear of but if it doesn't come out exactly the
way I want, whether that's your perfection or it's like
your own vision of what this is supposed to be,

(25:26):
like it's you just don't do it so that you
don't have to confront the feeling of but I didn't
do it as well as.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
I want right exactly. Yeah. I was always like even
with when I started auditioning, I wouldn't put the time
in and I would you know, not do well and
not get jobs, and I would be hung over and
not take it seriously. And it was there was a
lot of realization in that if I try really really

(25:54):
hard and fail, I'm falling from a much higher place.
And if I don't, and I'm like, well, whatever, I
didn't get it. I didn't. I was fucking I didn't try.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Exactly, you know, there's already made excuse if it doesn't work, right, Yes,
it's much scarier when you have to like put your
whole effort through and it still doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
You're like, well now what yeah, yeah, now do you
from a psychological place? You know, and we don't have
to go through we don't have to have a session
right now. But how do you break through those things?
I mean, obviously there's tools, there's ways. You know, how
deep seated is that is that? Does that come from
trauma in your life? Does that come from your dad

(26:34):
not being there? Does that you know? And then how
do you move to a place where it's it's no
longer just sort of trying to walk in molasses? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (26:45):
No, that's a great metaphor for the feeling that that
might give you, especially when you see that it might
be a cycle at certain points or with certain situations.
And yeah, sometimes it comes from trauma. Sometimes it comes
from early messages of you know, how you're not good enough.
That could have either been directly given to you by
an important adult in your life, or it could be

(27:07):
your own interpretation to what happened. So like, something that
I see oftentimes is again, as children, we're all self centered.
And I don't mean this in a bad way. It's like,
we just think that we're the center of our universe.
So anything good or bad that happens, you think that
you played a role, right, And so when something bad
happens in your childhood, there's oftentimes this feeling of maybe

(27:28):
I did something or I didn't do something and it
was my fault, and that over time can grow into
this essentially, I will say, a vulnerable spot where there's insecurity,
and oftentimes we don't do things that will actually essentially
get us out of those thought patterns because your brain

(27:51):
actually still likes familiarity and anytime something happens that might
shake that. It's amazing how your brain is so biased
and will just like only incorporate the parts of that
situation that still makes sense to you with your existing ideas,
as opposed to being like, oh wait, does this mean
I have to revisit my whole idea about myself and
the world. Like we don't do that very easily, you know,

(28:13):
So I think that that's part of it. It's like,
that's why childhood is so important, you know, because it
affects us today. You know, I don't think it's helpful
to dwell on your childhood and all the bad things
that happen. Just for the sake of doing that. I
think that it's important to reflect on it because it
will affect your ability to have joy now or like
to do the things that you want.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, and then you talk about your inner child, you know, yeah,
sort of and again Hoffman, you deal with all that shit.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
I mean, I love that that's so powerful, right in
child work.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
I used to say that that was BS, but now
I realize that it's powerful too. You know.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
I had this therapy session, so I in therapy, you know,
since I was about twenty twenty one. I'm forty seven.
Eventually I found CBT COB behavial therapy, which it's vibe
with me so much more than the other therapy I
was doing. Yeah anyway, but this my therapist at the time,
he's like, all right, Oliver, we're gonna do an exercise.
And I was like, oh god, Jan his name was Jan,

(29:19):
And what are we doing today? Man?

Speaker 2 (29:21):
I have homework time.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, He's like, you're gonna You're gonna talk to your inner.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh my god? Did you laugh at him?

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Oh God? I was like, what I was I gonna
want to do this, He's like, just do it. And
I had to sit on the couch and as me
as the adult and be like hi, Oliver, like how
are you, then moved to the other side of the
couch and be like yeah, I'm okay, and then and talking.
It was fucking horrendous.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the empty chair exercise.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
To commit to those things like yeah, you have to
get over yourself. I think that's almost part of the therapy,
is surrendering to the process more than the actual process.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Oh no, sure, sure So.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Anyway, yeah, that inner child work. Dealing with that as
I've gotten older, and when you talk about self esteem,
for me, it wasn't anyone telling me I wasn't good enough.
It was my own. It was me at the age
of five, six, seven, eight nine, whatever, it was saying, oh,
I'm I'm not good enough for you to stay you

(30:22):
know exactly, and you know and now, of course it's
not my fault, but that was my perception. So it's
about going back into that little dude and almost healing
the little man essentially. But it's been hard, like it's
been hard to heal that little dude. Oh dude.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
The inner child is I mean, it goes so deep, right,
and what you just described is exactly what happens, because
as children, you try to explain when bad things happen
with your little five year old brain. And yeah, so
your five year old brain is gonna it's not gonna say, oh,
well that's their problem, like why they split up or
why yeah, he didn't decide to stay. Maybe that's because

(30:59):
he's got his own stuff that he's dealing with. Like
you don't know how to think that way when you're five.
When you're five, you just think, oh, I didn't love
me enough, or like that I wasn't good enough, like
you said, Like those are so much more of the
concepts that just get kind of cemented into your belief
of yourself, right. Yeah, and then as you become an adult,
even if you get all this other validation and people

(31:20):
are constantly telling you how much they care about you
and that you are good enough, there's always going to
be that eye of skepticism like really, am I Like
are you sure? You know? You just kind of you're
it's just a different So yeah, like going back to
do inner child work, I love that you shared your
experience with it because the first time that I had
to practice it to learn how to do it with

(31:41):
my patients, I was just rolling my eyes the whole time.
I was like, what are we doing? Is this hypnotism
like some pseudoscience, you know? And then to realize, oh,
that inner child is it's a scientific part of yourself.
It's kind of that part of your brain that isn't
the frontal lobe that's like all about your high order
functioning and your executive functions. It's that part of your

(32:02):
brain that is more primordial and it's just like going
by feel. It might not even know how to expressly
discuss what it's feeling, because again, the inner child is
formed at a time when our language skills were not
the way they are when you're adults. But there's just
like a feeling. It's kind of that gut feeling we
talk about sometimes we have a gut feeling. It's that's

(32:23):
the part that I think is connected to your inner child,
and so you might not be able to totally explain
it with your intellect, but it's just a feeling you have.
You're just a feeling that you have that maybe you're
not good enough. And it's not about finding all the
evidence that you are because yeah, your intellectual brain knows that,
but somehow you just feel that deep down, you know,

(32:45):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
How do you eliminate Is it possible to totally eliminate
yeah things? Or is there always? Is there always residue?
You know?

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah? And I think that for a lot of people
there may be some residue. But then you start to
know that that's what it is, and you can quickly
turn your attention to healing your inner child in that
moment or validating them. But you know, back to your
questions that I know we got like kind of off track,
is I think that the best way to kind of
fight through some of these scenarios is to really engage

(33:15):
with your values. Like you have to take a step
back and say, what are the most important principles that
I want to live my life by? And obviously those
are not things you can check off the list. Like,
it doesn't matter how many projects you get to work
on or how many awards you get. It's more about
at the end of the day, even if I've accomplished
nothing on my to do list today, do I still
feel good about myself? And that really has to do

(33:37):
with your principles of life, and everybody has different values
or not things that you can check off, but they're
kind of like compass that you follow, and so they
could be things like adventure or community or spirituality or knowledge.
And it's like, did I do something today that honors
some of my top values? And if you can stay
on track with that, then I think it helps to
push through the times when you don't want to keep

(33:58):
going or you question and whether or not you should
go for it. It's like, well, let's see, is it
important to me based on my top values. If it is,
then you got to fight through it. And if not,
then maybe this wasn't a worthwhile goal to go after anyway,
you know, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, I love that. That's great, And all the therapy
that I've had, I'm not sure i've even heard that.
I like that. It's like you're cementing your foundation and
then once you have that, you know, then you can
from situation situation. You almost have like a bit of
a roadmap how to navigate it, you know, rather than

(34:38):
just being all over the place. I mean, I do
gratitude stuff. Problem with my gratitude stuff is it's the
same shit every day. I'm like I do ten things,
I write ten things. I'm grateful for it. I'm was like, okay,
here we go. Yeah, okay, my wife, my kids, the ocean.
It's just the same thing. I was trying to think

(34:59):
of different things, you know. Yeah, yeah, journaling, you know,
just sort of trying to self express. If it's not
with someone, you know, even talking to yourself sometimes helps.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Oh yeah, me, oh totally, yeah, self talk for sure.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
I have conversations with myself all the time.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Oh my god, oh my god, my inner voice needs
to shut the fuck up because it's was there an age?
Is there? Like an age? Is there a cutoff? You
know what I mean? When ten, eleven or thirteen? And
then and then answer that question in the two parts
because you did study neuroscience, right am I not right

(35:41):
about that? Okay? So the development of the brain moving
from sort of toddler to teenager. I have a sixteen
or fourteen and an eleven year old. Oh yes, you know.
And as far as parenting goes, understanding that brain from
a science can I think really help the way that

(36:02):
you parent your kids because their brains are developing and
they're all over the place. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean there isn't a cutoff necessarily
for attachment styles to cement themselves. And you know, the
whole premise, of course, is that you can heal your
attachment at any age, so it doesn't ever is not
ever as static as people might think it is, although
it can be a pattern that you have to notice
and then break, you know. But I would say that

(36:29):
the most pivotal time for attachment to start to kind
of form into a style or a pattern is the
first six years of life. That's what we know from research.
Doesn't mean that doesn't happen at age nine, it's not
continue to transform, but it's like those first six years,
and I think it corresponds to when we're the most
helpless as a species. Like you have your children, so

(36:50):
you know, as now they're in their eleven fourteen sixties,
like that time when they just start to like dress
themselves and like prepare their own breakfast. You're like, oh,
this is a lot better. But that kind of happens
around that time. It's like that kindergarten first year, like
they start to become a little bit more independent. They
have like their a lot of their own ideas and
they can execute some of them. Like I have a toddler,

(37:12):
he's almost three, and you know, he can't execute a
lot of his ideas. He has a ton of ideas
and he's very demanding. But then I have to do
all of his ideas like that, okay, you know. So anyway,
I think it's the age when you start to become
more self sufficient, and that is when you have to
rely on your caregivers a little less. And so I
think that's why those first six years are the most foundational,

(37:33):
because if your caregiver wasn't around, like you could literally die,
you could and that's why that's when your attachment bonds
and how they impact you are the strongest.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, oh for sure. Yeah. I mean part of Hoffman's
thing was about you know, self or negative love patterns,
because we need love to survive. Yeah, you know, just
just from an infant, you need love and love doesn't.
It's how we are perceiving love at that tiny little
or tiny little beings are still it's not conscious, but

(38:04):
there's a perception of love. And if that is negative,
if from your parents, it's it's you're attaching yourself to
those feelings because that's how you feel like you will
receive love or that's what it is, you know what
I'm saying, Like that that's the core of that whole therapy,
that whole week that I did there. You know, it's
just so fucking interesting. I mean, that's yeah, just to

(38:26):
dive into the mind and now go to the kids
and their brains and develop mental stuff. Like, first of all,
when is the brain fully developed?

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Oh my gosh, So this is always a shocker when
I tell everybody this, but probably not until age thirty five,
what I know. And then this is the craziest part
is that then it quickly starts deteriorating. So like you're
kind of like at the peak of your cognitive prowess
I'll say, around the age of thirty five, which is

(38:54):
also when your executive functions totally forms. Yeah, and then
like literally the year after that, it starts to decline
in certain areas like memory or like attention. And I'm like,
that is so crazy, Like, so you basically have twelve
months to be at your peak cognitive functioning and then
you're done. Yeah. So people when they say things like oh,

(39:15):
well he's eighteen, like his executive functions are all developed,
Like yeah, you wish like that's absolutely not. That's that's
when they're starting to get on a roll of developing.
But then it kind of continues for the next ten
to seventeen years. So there are some people whose executive
function is formed by the age of twenty nine or thirty.
But yeah, pretty much the average is more like thirty five.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
And then but some kids are their executive functioning is
way more developed than others. I mean I know that
because I have three of them, and my oldest is
you know, but this year was a really big year, meaning, wow,
he's doing shit on his own. He's in tenth grade.
He wasn't tenth three, only eleven. But you know, before
it's like wilder, like did you dear homewer? Where my
middle his executive function was just on you would just

(40:00):
get it done.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
You know.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
It's funny how things. Yes, there's just levels of maturity,
level of levels of brain development, And I'm wonder is
that genetic? You think?

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Yes, some of it's definitely genetic, as well as what
they feel they're being rewarded for. So when I was
a teenager, I was being rewarded all the time for
getting my homework done on time. Et cetera. So like
I did it more because I knew it was a
way that I would get validation and support than love. Right,
So I think it's a combination of genetics and how
the environment's responding to It's like that with any trait,

(40:33):
Like if you learn from a young age that you're
a funny kid, you're probably going to become funnier over
time because you know that whenever you crack a joke,
people laugh and they're excited, they're happy exactly, So then
you develop that more. But yeah, so you definitely see
differences in people. And I think that the biggest thing
with teenagers as they're getting their brain to be in

(40:54):
a more mature state, is that, yeah, some of their
executive functions are growing, like they can do more complex
things and they can self monitor a little better. But
the one thing that I think is the slowest to
develop is impulse control. So like you know, when you're
eighteen versus twenty one versus thirty one versus forty one,
you know you you may still have impulses, but by
the time you're forty one, like you just don't act

(41:15):
on them as much anymore. If you know that it's
not a good idea, but when you're twenty one, you
would just act on it. You're like, why not? Who cares?
Like you just don't think about the future the same way.
So I think that that's one of the things that's
the slowest to mature, is just that ability to look
at your impulses and be like, is this a good
thing to do or not? And then if not, can
you kind of move on to something that would be

(41:35):
more productive. That's the last thing to come in. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yeah, So totally still working on impulse control.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Right, Hello, I get it.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
It's so hard. God, I'm still a child, Like that's
the problem. Still, I love it, though, child, No, it is.
It is you got to hear that.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Part of you. You got to honor that part of you.
I know now I embrace it, but I hear what
you're saying. I mean sometimes, you know, because my husband
and I are very different. My husband is much more
like he wants things planned, weight to advance. He doesn't
like it when things are out of place. But I
love to like wake up one day and if somehow,
like I had some patient cancelations, I'm like, well, I'm
going to Disneyland, Like I just roll, I just roll up.

(42:13):
I'm like why not? And he doesn't get that. He's like,
why would you do that? Why don't you just stay
home and relax. I'm like, no, the whole point is
like it's fun to be impulsive, you know.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah, yeah, and I still want to try to do that.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
My wife is a planner man. And she's like, okay, well,
so in March twenty twenty five, I've got I'm like, what,
I don't even know onead Friday. Okay, I can't, I can't,
I can't even go there. We just had a little
not an argument, but I hadn't seen her in a
couple of days or whatever. And she gets in the
car and she starts planning things. I'm like, babe, I

(42:44):
don't want to talk about this, Like I just I
don't want to plan. She's like, well, I'm not trying
to plan. I'm just saying, like, these are things we
have to figure out. I'm like, I know we can
figure them out later.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Can we have a beat? Yeah? Just an hour? I
hear that. That's so funny.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
I know, I know, but it makes it work, you
know what I mean? Like, I don't know what I
do without her.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yeah, exactly. We're attracted to people who are different from us.
And I am of the belief that you tend to
be attracted to somebody, whether you know it or not,
to somebody who like shows you like a different way
of life. Like, I don't really see a lot of
people who are just always the same in terms of
how their approaches. I think my husband balances me out
because if it wasn't for him, I'd just be like

(43:27):
running off of me. I'm very accident prone, so I'll
just constantly just like fall while I'm running, like things
like that, and he's just so careful. He's never had
a fall like literally in his life. And I'm like, well,
it's probably good to find somewhere in between, because I'm
sick of getting all these injuries all the time.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Going back to the four pillars as we call them,
I guess I was just it popped into my house.
Just it's interesting to think that without the negativity, some
of the greatest things probably would never be invented. You know,
the mankind would look differently, you know. I mean, I

(44:13):
don't know Steve Jobs, but you know, if sometimes you
because you've had these situations in your life and because
you are one of the four in the negative ones
and anyway, you know, the anxious attachment or whatever it
has spurned on people to do incredible things and to
change the world. Yeah, you know, so it's not all there.

(44:36):
There is really I mean, of course there's negative, but
there's all You can always turn those negatives into something incredible,
you know.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, I mean where would we be without negative self
talk and negative thoughts? I mean you have to have
some of that. And actually negative thinking is adaptive to
a degree. If we didn't think about the potential threats
that would hurt us, we would not be alive as
a species. I mean, I know that we talk about
mindfulness and it's such an important part of well being,
et cetera. But if you think back to the cave

(45:06):
man days, the people who were mindful were dead. I mean,
our ancestors are not the mindful ones. The people who
are being mindful got eaten by bears. They didn't see it, right. So,
like you have to understand too that, like in terms
of a hereditary perspective, like the anxious brain was what
was passed down to us. It was the nervous nellies
that are alive. Now you know. So anyway, like, like

(45:29):
you said, a lot of the most amazing inventions wouldn't
be invented, a lot of the greatest art works would
not be developed if there wasn't a negative perspective because
that feels ideas for our survival and.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Our thriving totally. And when you talk about art too, yes,
more art than anything, you know, it's my world is
just you know, the not art in itself, but just
just the arts, the artistic endeavors, I guess. And how
many how many of us are crazy? You know? How many?
Is how much amazing things are coming from your pain

(46:03):
and your anxiety? Yeah, you know that form of expression
mostly comes from something negative. And when you're looking at
comedians stand ups, most of them are fucked up, most
of them are they they use that as an outlet.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Right, It's a coping strategy.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
It's a coping mechanism for sure, you know.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah when you think about it,
and you're absolutely right, I mean when you think about
the arts, and obviously that requires digging deep. People just
don't dig that deep when things are going well. It's like,
what is there to dig into?

Speaker 1 (46:38):
I'm happy?

Speaker 2 (46:38):
You know, people are kind of just like reveling in
that moment as opposed to, well, why do I feel
this way? Why am I so upset? Why do I
have depression? Like those are the things that really cause
you to think deeply and reflect on the human condition.
And then that's what people respond to when you produce
artwork in that vein, because it speaks to like a
universality of what everybody feels.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, my problem is that I'm like a fair weather
mindfulness person. Mean, when I'm not feeling well, I've been
throughout made bounce of anxiety and it's just a part
of my life.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
You know.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
I'm on Lexapro and I've learned to deal with it
over twenty plus years. But you know, when I am
starting to get into a funky place, I meditate my
ass off, I write my journal, like I run, I
do this, and I'm like, all right, I feel great.
Like where's the tequila? You know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah,

(47:32):
the maintenance, just main the mainenans.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Oh, I know that is the hardest though. Like I
was saying, when things are going well, it's easy to
not want to do them because you're like, oh, I'm
just going to enjoy feeling well. But yeah, prevention and
maintenance is such a big piece of it, and it
is hard. I mean, I think that that that feeling
is very I think it's very relatable. Like I think
that I've learned that over time that if I don't

(47:58):
do the prevention and maintenance and like, I burn out
much quicker, and I just kind of I have to.
So there are times when I rather not, but I'm like, oh,
I better do it, you.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Know, better do it. Do you do you practice? I
mean you do you meditate or do you practice?

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Oh no, I hate I hate meditation. Yeah he did,
But I do practice mindfulness, but I hate meditator.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
I don't know, you know, I have to like is
it too hard? I mean I can't sit there and
do this? Yes? Yes.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
And I think that that tells you a lot about
kind of where my starter attachment style was, Like I
just feel like I have no time for it, you know,
like I was, I always love being this workaholic, being
busy all the time. It's like, yeah, but you know,
maybe it's because you don't really want to think so
deeply about certain things, you know. But I have found
a happy medium. I do visualizations. I think that those

(48:46):
are more effective for me. Yeah, in her child stuff,
A lot of that's visual that works for me. But
just meditating, like I know some amazing practitioner they just
like sit there for thirty minutes, yeah, clear, clear their
mind or whatever I think I've done five minutes. Yeah,
So like that's kind of my threshold for And then
with mindfulness too, I prefer what I call practical mindfulness,

(49:07):
which is doing something that I'm already doing every day,
but single minded don't have distractions, like and some of
those can be so mundane. It's like folding laundry but
not also talking on the phone at the same time, right,
just being like one like this is my attention.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Like love that. It's so true. Meditation. I think there's
a there's a connotation of the word where it's you're sitting,
you know, cross legg and with your elbow, hands underneath.
But meditation is not that. There's all different forms of meditations, walking, meditations,
sports can be meditation. Anything. Fishing for me is my meditation.
You know, where you're on a singular focused scuba diving

(49:46):
is probably the greatest thing in the world.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
All you hear is your breath. You know, and you're floating.
So I think, to each their own, there is no
right way to do it exactly.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
I used to judge myself all the time, like, oh
my gosh, I can't do meditation the way that we
traditionally think of meditation. But you're absolutely right. Like, I
run every day and that's my meditation time. Essentially. I
don't have anything else open. Sometimes I run with no music.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, and that's what's your How many miles? What do
you run? What's your typical?

Speaker 2 (50:15):
Like five miles? I used to run a little more. Yeah,
five miles a day. Some days I run three if
I have less time, but like, it really helps. The
first ten minutes is kind of painful, so I have
to get past that part. So I try to do
like a forty five minutes to sixty minute run, and
depending on how I'm feeling.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
That day, It's like how the first part of the
run is horrendous and the worst.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
You know, you get on the zone, you get that
runners high that everyone talks about, and it's there. It's true.
I'm like, oh, I really attest to that. But it's
like an endorphin rush. It's like my free, my free
endorphins for the day, Like I really want to make
sure I get that. But yeah, anytime I stop running,
and a lot of times it's been physical injury. As
I've gotten older, it really changes my mindset. Like that's

(50:57):
so crazy, how quickly you become a dark person without
your go to coping strategy.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
What do you run?

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Like?

Speaker 1 (51:02):
What are your miles? Like?

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Like, I'm a jogger. I'm just like a slow, slow
jog Oh no, I'm not a good runner. No, I'm
a bad runner. That's not The whole point is that
it's okay if you're not good at it.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
You know, I've had to like really no figure that
I totally resonate what you're saying. So everyone everyone has
music when they run. I don't, Yeah, because I listen
to my footsteps and my breath and my mind is able.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
To just go.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
You know.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
It's so great, so great. I've had some amazing revelations running,
Like again, it's it's mindfulness. But it's not like I'm
trying to direct my thoughts right, So sometimes I have
like a really creative idea when I'm running, and I'm
like so excited. I'm like, oh yes, But it wasn't
like I was going for that, you know, it's just
you're just kind of being okay with whatever comes. Yeah,
so that's that's what's cool about it.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Yeah, your book came out in March. What's it called
give Us a Little Preview or starrety opp but give
us an Overview.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah. So it's called The New Rules of Attachment, and
it's about identifying your attachment style, understanding how you can
heal it at any age and stage, and also learning
how to get along with people with other attachment styles.
I think that that's really important. Most people do not
end up partnering with a person with the same attachment style,
or there's some important person in their life, whether it's

(52:21):
a coworker, a family member, or a really dear friend
who just communicates differently than you do. And I think
of attachment style sometimes as manifesting, almost like love languages,
Like people need different things to feel good, and so
it's important to know those types of tips too as
you're doing your own healing work about how to con
you know, kind of have conversations and how to be
in relationship with others who might be coming from a

(52:44):
different perspective than you are.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
That's great. So Basically, if you're meeting someone and falling
in love and you have the same attachment style, just
get out.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
No, that's hilarious. Well, I think you would see each
other's blind spots a lot more. But you might also
use the same coping and a bad way like to avoidance.
I think that's tough, right, because then like there's nobody
to like feel the engine really like anytime things get
too intimate that they both just kind of go to
their corners.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And do you have a podcast? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (53:14):
I have a podcast. It's it's one that's a very
very short one. It's like a ten minute podcast that
I just launched a few weeks ago. It's called it's
called uh Mental Health Bites with Dodger Judy. So basically,
in ten minutes, you just get like a timely topic
and answer to a burning question and then a practical
tip to to charge up your mental wellness for the day.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
I love that. That's because that's how we operate now
and bites.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, yeah, we don't have the time span.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Yes, it's crazy, I know, but that's the way it works. Okay,
final question, what am I?

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Okay, We're ready? I think you have predominantly anxious attachment
mixed with secure.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
That's what I think. I think it's predominantly anxious attachment, right,
like a little spice of you.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Got the secure, sprinkles of secure in every part of life.
It feels like it kind of just comes out in
like the most inconvenient places. Like you're secure when things
are going well, right, and then it's only when you're
stressed that the anxious attachment starts to like rear its head.
You're like, what's up? Why? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then I just sort of I
spin out sometimes where I'm just like, dude, what are
you doing? What are you doing? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (54:25):
Am I still analyzing this?

Speaker 1 (54:26):
And this pain that is just hasn't even happened yet,
and you're tripping and for your you know, I mean,
it's unbelievable what our brains, how incredibly powerful our brains are.
It's yeah, and we can cause physical ailments with this
organ in our head. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
It's so crazy. But here's a reframe though. For your
supposedly anxious, over analytical mind, that's just a very very
strong survival instinct. So I love this little exercise of
just basically thanking your mind when you know this is
spinning out, Like I give my mind a name. My
mind's name is Betty right now, and I'll just be like,

(55:07):
thanks Betty. But I got it, you know, like not
just sometimes enough to shake me out of something where
it's like, look, you can keep analyzing this, but there's
actually no solution and there's nothing you can do about it,
so you gotta just you know, recently, my main thing
has been about existential stuff because I'm in midlife. I'm
only a couple of years younger than you. I think
I'm the same age as your sister, so I've been

(55:28):
thinking a lot about life and death stuff. Yeah, I
just have to stop myself and be like, thanks Betty,
because guess what, like we are all gonna die, so.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Yeah, maybe when we get off, I'm gonna name in
my brain because I like that, because I get it
all existential too, where the death thing freak me the
fuck out, breaks me out because they've got kids and
I'm like, I got need to be there for them,
and yes, my dad wasn't. I'm gonna, you know, and
then and then you just gotta sort of everyone's gonna go.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I know, you can't you know what it's not. There's
nothing you can do about it. You know, there's something
you know. It's not like the movie that your mom
was in, Death Becomes Her, which was actually one of
my favorite movies.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Great movie, and I'm just like, you know.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
You can imagine that. But you see, there was also
still a lesson to be learned. Yeah, nobody can live forever.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Maybe it's not.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Well, so you gotta just gotta just yeah. But I
was getting into these crazy little like loops of like
thinking about what it would feel like like the moment
I died. Oh yeah, and you know, so you just
have to stop. You're like, so you know what it's
coming for you.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I used to trip myself out as a kid or teenage,
like thirteen fourteen, what is death? And I still do
it today. Sometimes I'm like, is it just blackness? It's
just black, I know, And then I'm like, well, you're
not going to be conscious to know that it's black,
so it wouldn't scary. But but but then the idea
that I am no longer going to be existing on

(56:48):
this planet.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Like what I means such a crazy trip.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Grip yourself out.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
You could really trip yourself out, and that's that's when
you have to say, thanks Betty, but I got it.
Let's move on.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Good. Yeah, well it has been so fun. I appreciate
the time.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
Oh, I appreciate you too.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
You've taught me things. I'm going to name my brain
after we get off of this. I appreciate you, thank you,
thank you. All right, fun, fun, have a good day. Okay.
I think I'm gonna name my brain Doug. Hey, Doug,
shut the fuck up. I like it. I think Doug
is a perfect name from my brain. So much interesting

(57:30):
things or so many interesting things?

Speaker 2 (57:32):
Right?

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Not so much? Man? What would it's like to be
full of that much knowledge about one specific topic and
then how you live your life accordingly? You know what
I mean? Like when things go wrong and her relationships
or her you know, hold her husband or whatever, does

(57:58):
she ever spin out? Or does Betty always she always
just knows how to talk to Betty. I guess I
don't know. But she was great. Everyone's great. I always
say that everyone's great, because no one really hasn't hasn't
been great. Everyone's honestly been great. But it would be
weird if someone we finished something like that was not good,

(58:18):
and that just didn't go very well. Maybe we'll find
one of those, but not today. Not today. The doctor
came through with a ton of wisdom and yeah, I
learned something new every day. Hopefully you do too. This
is Oliver Hudson signing off.