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June 20, 2024 75 mins

Oliver has a fascinating conversation with former Funeral Director, Codi Shewan prompting questions about life, death, and the paranormal!

How did Codi decide to attend mortuary college when he was only a teen?

Is someone who is surrounded by death actually afraid of dying?

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling raivalry. No, no, sibling.
You don't do that with your mouth revelry. That's good.

(00:37):
So I'm sitting in bed last night and my teenager,
my oldest wilder. You know, you know when your teenager
is coming in for something, you know what I mean.
I've actually been researching and reading a lot about sort
of the teenage brain and how we kind of have

(00:58):
to give our kids a little bit of grace because,
you know, some shit happens, the wires get all crossed.
They think they're the shit. You know, they don't understand
that you meaning me, meaning us as parents, have had
forty plus years of experience in this world, and that

(01:20):
we may know what we're talking about, but there's just
no sort of getting that into their skulls, and it
can get frustrating. But at the same time you have
to understand that it's just all part of the process
of growing up. And then you go back to when
you were a kid and remembering sort of how you
thought and how you sort of you know, your parents

(01:41):
probably felt that you didn't like them and you weren't
connecting with them, and it's just not the case. Anyway.
My oldest comes in, of course, immediately starts challenging me,
you know about my knowledge of working out. You know, Dad,
you don't even get it, Like you don't understand what
creatine does. And this is what happens, and I mean,
it was the whole thing, and it's fun. You play

(02:01):
the games, you know, you kind of give each other shit.
And there's a pecking order that happens, you know, with
the boy and his dad, and you know, it's the
age old story of you know, he's sort of puffing
his chest out, you know, trying to establish some sort
of dominance when in reality, yeah, it'll never happen. And
I tell him that, I'm like, dude, you'll never be

(02:24):
as cool as your dad. It's just not possible, you
know what I mean. Like we're going to Europe this
summer and he wants to go to clubs because he's
allowed to at sixteen seventeen, and I was like, I'm
going to go to clubs with you, and he's like
all right, and I'm like you're going to see Bud,
Like you're going to have your first experience with your
dad going into like a nightclub or something where you

(02:44):
know he's cool. People are going to be like, oh,
and then you're gonna respect me more. He's like, no,
my dad. Anyway, he comes into my room and go
through that, and then and then he's like, so, you know,
is it cool if like there's this dude, dude who
you know is worth a lot of money and he's
got like a million supercars and stuff, and my friends

(03:05):
and I wanted to like rent a supercar on the
last day of school to like drive around. I'm like,
are you out of your mind? A supercar? I don't
know what the hell that is? Number one, it's a
car that probably goes nine billion miles an hour. Wait,
what's in your head right now? Are you crazy? Yeah?

(03:26):
I I just love that he comes to me knowing
who I am and expects me to even give it
even a thought, being like, well, let me think about
this now. The kid is apparently a young kid, he's
like sixteen and has supercars and rents them out. I'm like,
what the fuck? Anyway, that just pops into my mind.

(03:52):
So interesting guest today Cody Shechuan. He has a book
coming out. He began his career in Canada and the
death care sector. So yeah, I think he spent twenty

(04:12):
years or so as a funeral director and balmer. I
always like to have on these guests that are different,
you know, to talk about things that interest me, that
scare me of course death, so this will be interesting.
He's got a book called Everyday Legacy Lessons for Living
with Purpose right now, and let's have him on. I'm

(04:35):
going to get into it. Maybe he'll curb my fears
or maybe he will exacerbate my fears of death. This
remains to be seen. So let's bring him in. Open
up the door, open up the casket, open up the casket,
and let Cody in.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yo. Hey, how's it going, Oliver?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
What's up? Brother? How are you good?

Speaker 2 (04:57):
How are you doing?

Speaker 1 (04:58):
What's happening?

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Man?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
You know, live in the life? What about you?

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Are you? Because here's the thing everyone says that, you know,
it's like you live in the life. Everything's good. We
all bullshit each other, really, you know what I mean,
because we just have to deal with the pleasantries and
sort of that, you know, that standard conversation of how
are you. I'm good, I'm good. You know, do you

(05:22):
think we do? You think it would behoove us to
be honest with each other? You know, in fact, I'm
like not great right now?

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, Los, I totally gets you. I understand the shitting
one another. But I think I may maybe look through
through a slightly different lens because of because of my
work experience. But you know, it is every day great? No,
obviously not. You know, we all experience this crazy word then.
But you know, I also choose in not a poly
positivity kind of way, but I do seriously choose to
you know, look at life and be grateful for it

(05:50):
every single day that I wake up and draw breath,
and that that really motivate me. It doesn't mean every
day is great, like I said, doesn't mean I'm in
the best mood every day, but it certain helps provide
sort of that central place, that repository for me to
spend time that helps me maybe look at things a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, No, it's it's really true. I mean, especially when
you first wake up in the morning, because that's when
the day is sort of fresh. Now, of course, you
have tasks ahead of you and some stressors and you know,
whatever life is going to bring you. But in those
in those first few quiet moments of waking up, there
is a way, and I try to do it to

(06:29):
where it's like it's going to be a good day
no matter what, because I'm here, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, there's so many people that that isn't the case
for either anticipated or maybe even you know, oftentimes worse,
it's not anticipating.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
So how did you get into this business? Because who
you know, who is sixteen fifteen? It's like, you know,
what do you want to do when you grow up?
I just want to deal with death. I want to
embalm people, you know, like, how did you how did
you get into this?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah? Well I can certainly said that wasn't my first thought.
You know, as you know from my book. Interested in
just the human connection, you know, what makes people tick,
what makes some people show up in our lives in
ways that other people who have the same opportunity don't
or can't or maybe they choose not to do. And
human connection for me really interested me. On top of
this just I don't even know what it was. I mean,

(07:20):
often funeral directors will tell you they don't they can't
answer that question felt like a calling, and that has
larned me. Although we were friends with the funeral home
owner in the town that I grew up in, and
maybe there was a degree of that. I mean, he
did have a beautiful home and drive nice cars and
live on the water and have all the toys in
the world. And as you know, as a fifteen year
old kid, you think that looks all pretty good.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
No, yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, look, death
is a great business. Everyone does it, you know. I
mean it's like, you know, but at some point, yeah,
how did what does money even play into that?

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Exactly? I mean, listen, everything can be a good business,
but it doesn't you do that business well? And you
know a lot of times, I think funeral directors in
a lot of our communities, you know, especially in North America,
are really sort of unsung heroes. You know, we think
about first responders all the time, who play is such
an important release, officers, firefighters, paramedics, But funeral directors are

(08:15):
kind of like the last responder, and they're people who
sort of run into the burning building, just like the firefighters,
when everyone else just wants to repent and run away,
and so I often think they just don't get the
credit for all the compassion they bring to the business.
So and that is where it's for me as a
young kid, you know, I started to volunteer at the
film through my high school co op and and I

(08:37):
realized very quickly that you know that that might be
a side benefit. You know, all the nice things that
this person has in their life, but this person is
really showing now all the right reasons every single day,
and how they're able to make a connection with people
at such a loss, at such a you know, a
tragic time in their lives and really make a difference
like it, like really difference was fascinating to me, and

(08:58):
that is ultimately what kept me there. The emboming was
just a whole other that's just part of the part
of the professional, part of.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
The right right right now. It's interesting because yeah, I
mean it's well put, we kind of don't look at
how important what you and others do. You know, how
important it really is because you were dealing with obvious
tragedy and now having to sort of take a really

(09:29):
sensitive topic, you know, and deal with this sort of
humanity around that, but still be a business man. You know,
I mean, there's still a price list, so how do
you handle that? And I'm sure there's different people who
do a different way, some little more cutthroat than others.

(09:50):
But you know, how do you sort of marry those
two things?

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, I mean I'm a little bit removed from it now,
so it was my career. I still work in the
space money, okay, a lot of a lot of my
consulting clients, and I speak at a ton of conferences
not just in funal and cemetery, but also outside of
about leadership and legacy. And I always say that, you know,
the most successful organizations that I've ever met, and many
that I know in the in the funeral and cemetery space,
they really prioritize the three p's in a very specific order,

(10:17):
being process, profit and when you you know, when you
have the right people doing the right things for all
the right reasons, and then you figure out how they're
going to do those things, How are we going to
show up for our communities, how are we going to
be there for the families that come. I really think
when you do those two really well, the last part
just follow just happens. The profit piece becomes so you
don't even have to think about but we can all
think of nations companies in all different kinds of airs

(10:39):
of work, different sectors that put profits first and then
figure out how they're going to make that money and
then think about the people last. And to me is
what often staying professions in the sense that those are
often the ones that rise to the top in terms
of the news stories that you know, the salacious things
that happen that are are sort of unsee. And the
truth is that do the exist, Yeah, of course they exist.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
That think like every like you said, in any business,
you're gonna have that, you know what I mean, Like
they do.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
But but but I'm tidd Oliver. Honestly, I really have.
I really have many funeral directors who are have knock,
got their heart in the right place. They really are
there for all of the right reasons, and I think
that's why they go a bit unsung in terms of
the credit they deserve. I mean, it's also one of
the last businesses, much like first responders that's twenty four

(11:29):
seven out twenty four seven three sixty five. You know,
it's it's it's ever of the day, every day of
the year. These people who often are giving up time
with their own families to be with the families they're serving. Wow,
they you know, they often prioritize others' needs, often their own.
And I, you know, so an advocate, I can advocate
for the profession as long as the day is light,

(11:51):
because I just I think it's such a special career
that I'm really lucky to heavy to have found motivation
might have been a little odd. I'm as a fifteen
year old boy, so I think it's fair to know
why maybe, But what really kept me in that space
and keeps me still space is really all the people,
the people who were there just serving so passionately.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
So how long were you in the game, Like, when
did you start this?

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, I started in my co op when I was sixteen.
I just turned just turned forty four to celebrated a
birthday last week.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Congrats, thank you.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
And yes, so every year since sixteen I've been involved.
I went to mortuary college and got licensed. I still
maintained my license this day. I have a lot of
friends in the business, a lot of professional college speak
a lot and consult so I'm still very connected to
the business. But on the front front line of the
business up until about twelve thirteen, I was still in

(12:43):
the front line. And now I just get to support
those who are and I see that equally as much
as I get.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
And then so when you're sixteen years old, because I
have a sixteen year old right now, I was literally
just talking about him in my little preamble, you know
what I mean. Yeah, I mean I can't imagine if
you had said, Dad, you know, this is what I
want to do. You know, where does that come? Where
does that come from? And we just we touched upon
it a little bit, but yeah, you know, as a
sixteen year old, who's you know, hormones are raging. You know,

(13:14):
you want to find relationships, you want to party, you
want to do what you want to do as a
as a sort of a standard six year old, where
were you was it? Just? Did it come from a
place of just pure compassion? Like are you that amazing
of a human?

Speaker 2 (13:30):
No? No, not at all, Okay, not at all. Really truthfully,
it came from a place of curiosity. I would say
that that was that was the That was the first
the compassion in the profession, even in myself. I mean,
that was a kid, but that's what kept me there.
And and I think that's that that's the beauty of
it is curiosity led here. And you know, oftentimes, listen,

(13:53):
death has a stigma in general in the world, and
even more so in North American culture, where we're pretty
death averse. So it worries me if you know, a
kid goes to their parent and says, hey, I want
to be a funeral director, that they don't think that's
slightly peculiar. Again, that's probably ego and judgment jumping to
the front of the line to send to say no,
you don't want to do that, when the truth is

(14:15):
like it is a it is a career of service,
and it can be incredibly powerful, not just for the
people you get to serve that your privileged to serve,
basually for yourself. And if that helps you to be
a better person, to live more life in your years,
then I mean, hey, that's just that's a side benefit.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
So what does that do you know? I mean, I
want to get into sort of your feelings about death,
which I'm sure you've talked about a lot, and sort
of how what you have done throughout your life has
informed those feelings and where you land on it. But
going back into that question when you're sixteen years old
and your brain honestly hasn't even fully developed yet. I mean,

(15:05):
it must have just changed the trajectory of your thought
process about what it is to die. And how did
that evolve, you know, from when you're sixteen until now?
And are you afraid of death?

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Terrified? I am? Yeah, I am.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
You would think it would be the other way around
for some strange reason.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, And I think, what if I can articulate a
little bit differently, it's scared of death. Maybe not death,
but because I worked in that space, I often get
this question, Oh my gosh, you know you worked in
the funeral world or you work in the funerald You
know you must have learned. And I say, like, like
the apple opposite, I learned so much about life and
so I don't know that I'm scared of death as

(15:48):
much as I am scared of not living. If that
makes you know I have I'm blessed. I've got amazing,
amazing people in my life. And you know, part of
the joy in life, as much as it comes with nimes,
are the people that are around us. And I don't
want to miss out on anything. Maybe maybe I have
a serious case of fomo in things. But I just

(16:09):
feel like, you know, you also hit a certain stride,
you know, you know, around our age that you think,
I kind of am starting to figure out what life
means to me. Not the meaning of life that I'm
not sure anyone can ever answer, but what it means,
what it means to me Oftentimes, at least in the
least you know that I have had and that friends

(16:29):
have had our worlds it's more important for them to
get smaller, not bigger, And so as a consequence, those
worlds often also, you know, becomes really really important to us.
It becomes something that we can't not but be thankful
for and want to have more of. So I don't
know if it's dying that I'm like, how I go
and uh and why? Because I don't want it to

(16:51):
be any time soon. I just don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
I know I'm not dissimilar, you know. I mean, I
used to freak myself out when I I was younger.
I'm forty seven, but when I say younger, I mean
probably in my early teens, I think. And I can
still get to this place of freaking myself out where
you go, Okay, when you die, it's just black and
where the fuck are you? And oh my gosh, you

(17:15):
know I mean, And if you can dip into that
feeling enough and marinate in it, it can be scary.
But at the same time, it doesn't make sense because
that means you have consciousness. If you can't, you can't
know you're in darkness, you know, without having some sort
of consciousness. The idea of letting go and truly being

(17:35):
unafraid of death, to me is how you can fully,
truly freely live.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
You know.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
If you do not have that fear, then I'm not
saying you're have you a risk taker. I'm just saying
it's you're just freed up and I feel like it
would be a beautiful feeling.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Well, so I actually not want to be afraid of it.
I want to now do I paralyzed by it? No?
You know, there's a difference between observation and obsession. You know,
there's a very fine line. You can observe something and
uit and pay attention to it and use it, or
you can obsess about that thing by just like an
inch beyond that line and listen. That's also a dance

(18:16):
thry and do and most of us don't do it. Perfectly.
Sometimes we trip into fear intrepidation, and our ego you know,
is not kind to us and tells us we're going
to die every single minute of every single day, and
it's paralyzing. And that's also good. So when you're there
thinking about being free of it, of course that makes sense.
You know, you think God, if any anywhere but here.
But the truth is when you walk that fine line

(18:38):
of observation, you can actually use it really powerfully in
your life. You know, we weird fear about death, and
yet it's in our common vernacular when we think about
it things, you know, things like we talk about bucket lists.
If I said to the top three things on your
bucket list, and I said said it to you or
said Kate or anybody else, you probably have an answer.

(18:58):
But what we're really saying is like, hey, before I die, I.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Want this to happen exactly.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
But we never say, like, you know, what I was
really thinking of last men, was you know, before I die?
I really want to because people are like, holy shit,
why are you thinking about dying? Like what's going on?
But tell me more just the way with that, you know,
But when we think about the stoic times the Stoics.
In ancient times, they used to say mental maori and
loosely translated that means remember you will die, and they

(19:27):
about it things like skulls were things that happened around
them and were around them often both those thoughts and
these sort of things to remind them, hey, you aren't dead,
you are still allow you're here, put life in your years.
And a modern day version of that is yolo, like
you only live once, and people throw that around, no
big deal. And so it's this, it's this oddity of

(19:51):
having a comfort with something in one lane and the
very same thing mirrored in another lane, just looking slightly different.
And we have this, you know, we're marred in fear
and it repels us. You think that that is again
that observatation versus ession, whereas if you use it really powerfully, Heck,
I don't ever want to be afraid of dying, because
if it keeps me centered around, being focused with the
people I love, doing the things the things that I enjoy,

(20:15):
and making memories, well that to me is my meaning
of life. But if I let it control me and
cripple me, yeah, like you probably want to abandon that
space really really fast. Just be like, I'm out of here.
This has been fun, but I'd rather just not feel
this way.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
So it's a dance.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's a dance.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah. No, I know. You mean when you say you're
you're afraid of death because you just don't want to
miss out, you know, you're not actually afraid of the
act of dying necessarily. It's like, oh fuck, I have
too much to do, way too much that I can
completely relate to. You know, I have three kids, they're sixteen, fourteen,
and eleven. My life is good, things are exciting. I'm

(20:56):
still middle aged. I feel like I'm scratching the surface.
There's so much more to accomplish creatively and spiritually and
just pure fun, you know, and that part is the
scary part, like ah, and especially my children under bike.
That is big for me, you know, and I think

(21:17):
that probably stops me though, from doing thinks some things
that I would want to do when it maybe it shouldn't,
you know, Yeah, I totally yeah, do you have kids?

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Totally? I don't have kids. No, I've got some incredible nieces,
nieces and nephew.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
But but even that, you know, I'm I'm probably of
all of our siblings were what did Kate refer to
that once a patchwork family or a patchwork family? Yeah,
same thing. But but I am the first removed from
the small town that we grew up in, and I
oftentimes think like, am I missing out by being further away?
You know, you get back for the you know, the
the holidays, which is you know, only a couple, only

(21:57):
a couple of rand scheme of things. Yeah, and you
know you think, God, these kids are growing up, like
they're tall, and they're mature, and they have personalities and
they're they're doing things, and what is the gap in
between between, like things I've missed out on? And so yeah,
I got desire for curiosity around that.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Did you ever want kids?

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I never had that paternal need to pa DNA for myself.
I've just never felt that and so it hasn't happened
for me, and it won't happen for me. And that's okay,
that's just a decision. I don't judge people for not
wanting to have children to I empathize with those who
really want them and can't. I mean that.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
I only ask because I you know, as I told you,
I have three, right, I have this conversation every once
in a while with friends, and you know, you think
about your life and what you know you're gonna leave behind,
what kind of mark you're going to make, And it's
different for different people. It's different for everybody. You know.

(23:01):
For me, your true legacy though, isn't an Academy award,
isn't the money that you make. I mean to me,
it's for me personally. It's my children because essentially I
am passing part of who I am down to them. Now.
They can take what they want from it, but it
is my It is my DNA and my genetics are
there and they will be there through my lineage and

(23:24):
how I parent who I am as a father, the
experiences that I have with my kids, and essentially when
I'm on my deathbed, hopefully at one hundred and seventy
eight years old, and they now are pushing, pushing the
narrative of the of who I was. You know, yeah,
that is my true legacy, you know, not a movie,

(23:45):
a TV show, an award. You know, it's that is
it for me? You know?

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah? I mean you and I we've had totally different
experiences in life, just like you and you and even
your sister have had totally different experiences as yours are
more common with her than maybe yours or mine or
mine and hers. But the truth is, when you distill
it all down and you tear everything away, we're away.
We're just We're just humans, that's it. And so we

(24:12):
have to think about that in a really rudimentary way.
I mean, people always say to me, how do I start,
you know, living my legacy, because part of the impetuss
for me getting into this work and talking, you know
about legacy, writing a book about legacy, talking to you know,
at conferences, and you know, to companies about leadership and
how those are tied together. It really is about redefining

(24:35):
that whole idea, the construct of legacy, because most people
when they think about legacy, they think about it as
something that comes after, something that's there sort of once
you're gone, once you're dead, and you know, so often.
In fact, there was one particular story where it was
like a lightning bolt moment when I was working still
in the funeral home, and it just struck me that
the idea of the notion that we just had this

(24:55):
all wrong, you know, that we instead of thinking about
legacy after we're gone. Are we thinking about legacy to
steer us powerfully while we're still here. Hence the name
of the name of my legacy, And the whole idea
is figuring out what's important to us and infusing more
and more of that into our lives and then by extension,
into the lives of the people who are you know,
closest to us. Such story about fatherhood with your you know,

(25:18):
your three kids, it reminds me of a story when
my sister was pregnant with her first child, my first nephew,
and at one point she was getting really close and
I said, you know, Sierra, what are you looking forward to? Like,
you know, fast forward. I know you don't want to
think about this, you're pregnant, but fast forward.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
To the end of the end, Like what do you
want to be remembered for? That's amazing? Now we're just
giving birth, but let's talk about death.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Now. Most sisters would be like, what the hell, But
my sister was like, yeah, okay, this is just one
of those of those deep station questions, which was fittingwa
was fitting for say, It's not like I brought it
up while we were you know, eating dinner at you know, right.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
The way she's laboring in the middle in quest right.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
Fast forward, and she said, you know what you know, well,
right now, all I can think about is motherhood. So
I guess would be you know, be in a good mother.
And I looked at her and I smiled, and I said,
that's bullshit. That's fine as ada as a construct. But
if being a mother, if motherhood is the cake, what
are the ingredients that you're putting into that cake? You know, kindness, empapathy,

(26:26):
you know, a caring nature, thoughtfulness, integrity, whatever those things are,
and they're gonna be different for all of us. All
of us have a different value system. Whatever those things, though,
that bake the cake of motherhood. That's the stuff that
you give to your children. Those are the qualities and
the values that they start to perhaps consider as important
in their lives and create alignment with because because of
theirs with you and that value and as long as

(26:48):
those values are good and impact the world in a
positive way, keep them coming. Let that be the generational
thing that we hand down from generation from generation. It's
no different in a company as a leader, from a
leader to an employee who may become a leader and
then pass that on to their team. You know, organizational
legacy is just as important as our legacy, and when
those two things come together, we've maybe doesn't feel quite

(27:09):
as divided as it seems to sometimes right now. You know,
and this might sound like spiritual woo woo to some people.
The listener, the listeners you've got, I've been you know,
I've been a listener. It's not going to sound like that.
Someone been listening in it the first time might be like,
what the hell? And again, those aren't that. That's not
who I choose to focus on, you know, I want
to focus on me, what I'm bringing to the terms

(27:31):
of my relationships, because that is the stuff that's going
to be remembered. Isn't the Academy awards. It isn't the stuff.
It isn't the bank accounts. Listen, Oliver, in all the
years that are active on the frontline of of funeral homes,
I never saw you haul ever once attached to a
funeralhearse right, not once you're not taking the stuff with you.
No one cares about that stuff. I've never overheard of eulogy.

(27:51):
Someone stands up and says, you know, Oliver was an
accomplished business person, you know, earned this much revenue and
twenty twenty three and and I'm the Top Employer of
the World award. No one gives a shit about that stuff,
right because truthfully, Oliver might have accomplished all that stuff
and I sold the whole time along who cares. I
don't care. I probably wanted nothing to do with you,

(28:12):
and probably most of the people around you were just
guessing your ass and around you either. And the reality
is that when you distill it down those values, those ingredients,
that cake that you're making, it's just important to them
now it's really important. And when you that, it shifts
that idea.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, it's a good analogy, you know, the cake, because
the cake essentially is the finished product. I would go
one step further and saying that it's a it's a
cake with no recipe because we're all so different and relating.
It's sort of parenthood. Yeah, you want that cake at

(28:50):
the end of the day to be incredible, but it's
going to have a lot of you know, there's there's
might be some shit in there that you didn't think
was going to be good. But at the end of
the day, it mixed well with all the other ingredients
and it tastes all right, because you know, we're only
we're doing the best that we can. Is no there
is no road, real road map. You know, Perfection is

(29:14):
not really a word that should even be in the dictionary,
you know, because there is no such thing.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
You know, Perfection is an illusion.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
It's a total illusion.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
And we are designed through most are design through our
life experiences that it is something that is attainable and
that we should strive for. And it is such a fallacy.
It's such a fallacy to think to think that you
can lead get there. You may get to perfection, but
you have to calibrate what perfection means for you or
that thing like perfection is going to be different for
every single person, just like that cake is different. And

(29:44):
we've all eaten some dusty ass dress dry cakes. So
but to some person, somebody thought that cake was just
the best cake they'd ever eaten. Maybe that person, when
you look at it in context, has never eaten cake before. Yeah,
so gift that opportunity is for them. So again, it's
just all thinking about you. In the book, you know,
I talk about this a lot, and I say that
for people who are trying to figure this legacy thing

(30:06):
out now, not just living life and not being not
being aware of just and hoping it's good at the end. Right,
what to do that you know you can start to
really get a grip on what you want. But inevitably
sometimes there's sometimes there's this idea of being selfish, Like
I'm thinking about me and my what I give and
III and most of us are raised to be selfless.

(30:29):
Most of us are raised that's better to give than
to receive. So I'm kind of recoined the word to
be self full that ultimately that when my cup is full,
and it has to be full in order for me
to be of service to other people, just like anyone
else in this world, you have to be of service
to yourself. You've got to fill your own cup first,
but overflows that's for everybody else. But I have to
be full, I have to be whole. If I can't

(30:50):
do something for myself, how am I ever expected to
do for other people? So it really think about everyday legacy,
creating an everyday legacy. It's alignment between those values and
then values to behaviors, and once we're into behavior mode,
then we're in habit mode. And so it does cat
quickly and you know it doesn't mean the rainbows, and

(31:12):
you know it doesn't mean the world there's rainbows and
unicorns and you know everything is easy and peasy. That's
not likely, but it sure makes the process of going
going through those just a little bit more level.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
What do you think about this, though, because I wrestle
with this a little bit. I mean, and I do agree,
because when your cup is not full, it's hard to give.
It's almost like, if you don't love yourself, how are
you going to love someone else, you know, or how
are you going to love someone else to to your
fullest capacity unless you are unless you have that self love,

(31:53):
which I've dealt with like one hundred percent. Self love.
Self worth has been sort of an issue for me
just generally within my life, and that's what I work
on through meditation or therapy or or just daily shit journaling,
you know, whatever it is. But I would let me
ask you this question. You say, if your cup is
not full, you know, it's hard to sort of give essentially,

(32:17):
But what about the idea of reversing that and being
selfless to fill your cup? You know what I mean,
meaning you're half full in that cup, but if you
can start giving, you start to realize, Wow, maybe it's
not all about me, you know what I mean, maybe
I've been selfish, so now volunteering at the children's hospital
all of a sudden starts to fill that cup because

(32:39):
you're like, holy shit, you know I have a different
kind of a purpose other than a self fulfilling purpose.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah. Well, I think that's exactly why I tried to
recoin the work coin the word because I got proximity
to it. Sort of feel like that at like, what
if things I do are for others, and that's great,
It doesn't matter to me as long as it feels
it fills york, brings you, meaning, brings you, It makes
you happy. Likely when you are happy, when you are
filled with joy, you are inspiring others to be the same,

(33:07):
to look for those opportunities. You know, can we all
life of absolute service? No unfortunate world works? Then you know,
the economy doesn't doesn't unfortunately work on kindness, although I
think it could use a lot, hell of a lot more.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Of it, a lot more.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
But the reality, you know, you can actually start to
put more into your tank by the things you do
that mean something to you, So it doesn't have to
be in service to others. It can be, and I
agree with you. I think beree with you. I think
that's you know, that whole idea of givers gain. I
think it for a lot of people is what fills
their cup. But it can also be just spending time
with the people you love, taking taking up you, you know,

(33:43):
brings you joy, Spending time with people you care about,
having conversations that matter. It doesn't matter to me what
it is. If it's jumping out of planes, I have that.
But if it fills you up, it makes you feel
good and causes you to show up better in the
world as a consequence of that thing. Keep on keeping on, like,
keep on doing it.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
So, how did your experience the twenty years as a
funeral director? How did that sort of inspire this? You
kind of touched upon it a little bit, that sort
of aha moment you had, But how are you sort
of how are you connecting the two in your book?
What's what's the full name of your book?

Speaker 2 (34:22):
Every Day Legacy Lessons for Living with More Purpose? Right now? Okay,
and the idea is right now? You know that it
was almost as if I'd hit this point in my
career that you know, these are things that were right
under my nose, like death, dying, ying, a lot of
sitting with a lot of families. I wrote a chapter
called Echoes of Regret, and that I can't count, oliver

(34:44):
the number of times I sat around an arrangement team
but with families and heard I wish I would have
I would have, you know, I wish I didn't go
to bed angry. I wish i'd said I leave before
they left the house. I wish I wish I should,
people should all over themselves. And the truth is that
there was a little tiny voice in my head that
every every time I heard thought, why didn't you say
I love you? Why why didn't you give them another hugly?

(35:07):
You know, could you have? And chose not to? And
then they and it's almost as if all this was
to be. But I was just unconscious. I was just
you know, I was I was doing a job that
I loved and in it and serving people. But it
seemed like below the topical nature of that, there just wasn't.
I didn't and I didn't that depth until that lightning jolt,

(35:28):
and then it was, you know, very it became very aware.
It became one of those things that once you see it,
you can't unsee it. You start to see, oh my god,
there's a lot of people that were serving are serving
and have a tonnel. Oh my gosh. There's a lot
of people that are thinking about legacy either when someone
gets sick, so they're starting to think about the end
of their life only when they have to. And there's
also we as a society or dedized with this idea
of death, but then also realizing actually we're not, you know,

(35:51):
we we think about bucket lists and celebrate people, check
things off and put it on on social media, all
applause them or applaud them. And yet when we talk
about death head on, when I say to you, Oliver,
how do you want to be remembered?

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
That is a powerful, powerful question. In fact, I think
it's think it's the one that can articulate sort of
your own purpose. You know, when you think about God
fast forward to the end, good grief. I don't really
want to think about it. Some people might even say
it's a bit macabre. Well, think about the result of
that thing, So really that is that is that's where
this happened. Uh, And I ended up talking you know,

(36:24):
about this a lot to a lot of people, to
a lot of friends and family, and and originally, to
be honest, I started to write a book, a business book,
this book. And because I work in I'm a business
person and a speaker, and uh I speak at you know,
speak at conferences. And the reality was reality was people
to write a book, write a book. And so I
started to write a book. Well, so I started to

(36:45):
write a business three times, and each time it was crap.
It was just there's just nothing there. There was nothing,
there was nothing like it was just you know, even
even in even some of the Chris books, you know,
Simon Sine start with why great book, a plot of business.
But when you really think about it, it actually, if you
strip out all the business has nothing to do with business,
you can use that book just as powerfully in your life.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
And I thought, start with why, I don't know, I
don't know. It's a it's a good read. Yeah, and
I think generally speaking, it's a well respected read. Just
assignment as a well respected person, and yeah, it's it's
it's a good one.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
And and I thought, you know, what if I approach
this differently? What if I skip the business book and
I just write a book for people, you know, if
you know, And again we talked about like people, process, process, profit,
asking people to put themselves first, to know that when
they fill their cup, when they think about the end
and how they're showing up today, and let let that,
you know, or enable or allow them to have a

(37:40):
conversation like that into their language, which might be tottally
foreign the way they speak with themselves or with others.
What a what A what a gift? You know? I
kind of think of my everyday legacy as as an
impacts hard to define because it means different than things
to different people. But if I can impact, you know,
more people in the world to think positively about who

(38:02):
they are, what they're doing, the people around them, the
relationships that ships that have, the many man, that's the
biggest gift I could I could ever have. And so
that is ultimately what caused me to put voice to voice.
Note said, most people say he per But I didn't
write my book. I talked to my book, did you really? Yeah?
I can't. The ADHD brain doesn't work like that. So
sitting and writing was that just didn't work for me.

(38:24):
So I spoke my book into into the world and
then oh, of course yeah, and then edited it, edited
it obviously, you know, through editor and publisher, and then
got into the world that way. But that that's the
intersection right there. That intersection is the answer to your question.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, it's interesting because it's almost like it was less
about the deceased and more about sort of watching the
families of the deceased deal with the deceased. You know,
oh I wish or I should have or you know,
and then it's like, well, how how are you going
to define your life? How are you going to sort
of not have that at the end I should have

(39:00):
you know, are you religious?

Speaker 2 (39:03):
I'm not actually very religious, No, I would say more spiritual.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, me too. I'm just saying living in that
world of death for however long you did before you
got out, I mean you're still involved, but you know
the day to day. Yeah, you know how you're looking
at death and how religion plays into it. I'm sure
you've seen all kinds of different religions and dominations of
religions come through. Now do you see a through line?

(39:29):
Meaning when you were witnessing all of these different kinds
of funerals, different ceremonies, different religions that are playing a
part in these ceremonies. Is there a narrative, a singular
narrative that you can extrapolate from all of it, or
love or you know.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
In a way. I mean, in many cases, I would
say the majority. I mean, there's always these unique situations
where someone passes away and they were you know, they
didn't know, they didn't have it, or they maybe weren't
so well liked, maybe they weren't that leaning the you know,
impacting the world the way they thought they were, or
they didn't do anything about it, one or the other.
But the consistent through line spraying religious beliefs or convictions

(40:12):
was just love. And what I think most funeral directors
try and do is to enable the family to see
the impact that that person had on their life and
to celebrate that in the coming days, you know, to
celebrate who that person, not what they did, but were.
And that's a big distinction that there's a big difference.

(40:34):
It's like, you know, the the hearson, the funeral coach,
those are things that's what who is Who is the
guest of honor here at services? And it's the person
at the front of the room in the in the
it's not there, or your religious belief might have you
believe otherwise that they are around you, or they've gone
to have it, what doesn't it, whatever works for you,

(40:55):
and that and that in fact, what happened that day
that that I totally believe about that lightning moment was
I was standing at the back of the chapel listening
to the service. Obviously Nestley at the professional you're listening
for the cue. When do I go in? When as
the minister to those sort of things. But you know,
I got to know a lot of people through stories
and eulogies, and the eulogies that words that were being

(41:17):
told particular gentlemen. He was in his late eighties, and
his name I've forgotten anyway, He's just the eighty six
year old man. And the stories that these grandchildren and
children were telling about him. About him, there was moments
of pure and laughter and then moments of pause filled
by sobbing, like a depth of sobbing after and it

(41:39):
was this oscillation between the two for the better part
of you know, thirty minutes. Well, I could think Oliver
was my God. I hope he knows the difference he
made right because if he didn't a shame. What a
shame If he didn't needn't understand to take it even further?
What if he did know? What if the reason he

(42:00):
able to have this kind of impact now once he's
gone is because he was as he was aware, as
he showed up consciously in his life. And the truth is,
I'll never know that answer for him, but I can
know that answer for me. I can make that choice.
I can can choose how I show up in the
world and how people might just remember me. And for

(42:20):
a control freak like me, that's great.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, No, it's it's it's it's so. It's true. I mean,
if you have self awareness and you are someone who
people naturally gravitate towards for advice or they respect sort
of the way your outlooks, and and then you do

(42:43):
realize how you can sort of help other people move
through certain things, it's extremely gratifying. And I've experienced that. Yeah,
so it is. It's You're right. It could be big,
could be little, it doesn't happen, could be could be.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
As simple as like your quick wit. It lightens my
day And I love spending time with you because every
time I do have got tears rolling down my face
and I lean my God like Oliver's that God. I
love spending time with this makes me laugh, fills my
soul great. It doesn't have to be this big, impactful,
meaningful thing, like we often think of these things as
like these grand gestures and say it's not. Sometimes it's
the teeniest, tiniest, smallest things seemingly inconsequential to us that

(43:21):
have the biggest impact on bull And those are sometimes
the things that create giant ripples in the world of goodness.
That's and if you're a part of that, I like
to say, chuncter blessings, you're you're lucky to be at
parliaments or to have those people in your life exactly
who you are and that you do have you do
have value, because it's easy for us in today's world

(43:42):
to forget all that we are worth. And we're not
taught to think about our think about ourselves, you know,
so outwardly positively, but or to speak about ourselves that way.
But like everybody has a very definitive worth in this world.
You just got to figure out not vices, but by
how you show up in the world and others respond to.

(44:02):
It's usually an indication of the things that you're really
good at that you should maybe think about giving more
of to the world.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Do you do you have any sort of belief or
a belief of where you might go after death? Seeing
you're not religious, you're more of a spiritual person. I mean,
are you Is there an Eastern philosophical idea? I mean,
is there a reincarnation? Is it? Who the fuck knows?
Or what? Do you think?

Speaker 2 (44:37):
I think the common answer would be who the fuck knows?
I think that I think by answer, you know, there's
these moments, these shoulder taps, oftentimes as I refer them to,
to them as where you think you're really thinking about
someone that has passed away. My grandmother, who I wrote
about in the book, was someone who's incredibly impactful in
my life. She is part of who I am, and

(44:58):
that was by how she showed up in the world.
That was her everyday legacy. How though, should put that
back then, and that in and of itself maybe makes
me think that you know, she's around, she's she's around,
hopefully not all the time. I don't need her around
all of the time. In a moment where you can
call on, you know, call back to that guidance, that reflection.

(45:22):
Who's to say that they're not that they're not ricepering
in your ear? Who knows? And we don't know? And listen,
it's the same, you know, Catholicism, those who you know,
if if you are Catholic and you you repent, and
you go to church every single day all day, and
and you you draw your last breath, and the pearly
gates aren't there, well if it, if that, if doing

(45:44):
those things called to show up better in the world,
to be kind, teamed, tympathy, and to be just good
in humanity, keep going. It doesn't It doesn't really matter
to me. What matters to me is the people around
I show up as a con what's my choices, my
behavior is my decisions. That's really what matters to me.

(46:04):
And I like to think that, Yeah, Grandma's not that
far away.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Right, So you so essentially you you do believe that
there is something. I mean, energy never dissipates, right, we
know that hun aer science standpoint. We are made of
electricity and energy, so where the fuck does it go?
But is there a consciousness still attached to that energy?
I mean, there are all questions. Of course, we have
no idea about Yeah, unless you are a religious person

(46:28):
where you have a real, you know, clear idea for
yourself of where you're going, you know, which I just
don't believe in. But you would still say it's safe
to say that you believe that we go somewhere, our
energy dissipates somewhere. You just don't know, but it's it's
circulating somehow, it's there somewhere.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Safe to say. Let's say I don't know, you don't know.
I'm certainly not eager to find out.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Well and ask you a question. I mean, like in
your experiences, you know, at a funeral, poil or have
you had mystical supernatural situations to where you're like, wait
for me, you would, but no.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
No, you know, there isn't that now. I am but
one person. There are thousands of funeral and cemetery for professionals,
you know, between in North America and the world for
that not even more. Is someone going to say they
haven't experience every other day? Yeah they are. It isn't
my experience. But again, I'm not one to quickly discount others.

(47:34):
So does it happen maybe just just not not for me?

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Yeah, and then sorry, I wish I had a go
juicy story for you, but I don't.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I'm just it's
just pure curiosity. I mean, you know, it's funny. I had,
you mean, an interesting, a quick story about sort of
the supernatural with my family, you know, I've I don't know,
it always we always have some weird fucking experience in
my family. But Mom was doing a movie like in England,

(48:03):
and we were in the countryside, and we were in
this old house and we ended up leaving after two
weeks because it was that haunted, you know. I mean
we'd hear footsteps going up the gravel driveway walkway and
then a knock on the door and there was nobody there.
I mean, there were footsteps going up and down the

(48:24):
hallway all the time and there was no one home
except for me and like a couple other people. My
sister would trip in the same spot up in the
hallway and there was nothing there. Every time she walked
by it, she would trip.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
You asked about the funeral world, Now I have had
any experience personally you have, But I have had an
experience personally, just not not in the funeral homes.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Or is it an experience that you can square, meaning
wrap your head around, or you're like, I don't know,
I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
No, no, very not wrap my head which keeps the
mysticism of it all the curiosity all.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
You want to share it not keen curiosity.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Right.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yeah, I actually haven't told this story to too many people,
too many peoples, but no, it was. It was during
my internship and I worked in a you know, fairly
large urban searge urban centrance. My dad had passed away,
and my dad passed away sily. We had a very
estranged relationship which I write about, which I write about
in the book in a chapter called Meeting Bob and

(49:22):
that's who he was on met him more after he
died than I did while he was breathing. Wow, And
which is a's that's a that's a story. That's one
I'd have to hold it together for. But yeah, So
this woman who I had become friends with, she ran
a hospital foundation, and her husband dropped dead right around

(49:42):
the same time. He was making tea for them in
the living room and called her name, and as she
as she got to then he was clutching his chest
and he was gone. I was young, like he was
in his I think like late forties, early fifties, and
she was devastated. At one point through our friendship, she
had said, you know a group of us medium to
come to town. Do you would you come? Mostly so

(50:03):
you can take notes for me, And I said, yeah, sure,
I'll come. She said, do you believe in that stuff?
And I said, I have no idea. I have no
idea if I believe it. I never I believe it.
I've never had of it. And so I went with her,
and of course we're in a room, no one there
who I know except for except for Liz, and were
she's she's is talking, and all of a sudden she's

(50:24):
talking about that this middle aged man that has passed
away suddenly, and I'm kind of excited for Liz because
here is Rick coming to speak speak to her as
she's described to me as the common experience or hopeful experience.
I guess in these sentence it turns out that the
medium suggested, no, it was not for her, it was
for me. And of course that caught me a little funny.

(50:47):
And because I am a bit of a pragmatist, I said,
you know, listen, you can share whatever you'd like with me.
But I'm gonna I'm going to ask you a few
questions because I need to create some belief in what
you're about to say. So if you can answer these
questions or he can answer these questions, great, But if not,
I'm I'm out. I'm not. You can move on or

(51:09):
ask off. I don't care. And I said, of course,
court I said it much much more kindly, and she said,
he said something about you know something about a silver car,
and if they can, lady, you saw me get out
out of my car. It's a silver car like nice try,
but that doesn't cut it. And I basically said that

(51:30):
wouldn't be enough to convince me. And she said something
about he's got a small child with him. That didn't
make any sense. My mom and dad when they were
married only had me strict to that story, remind me
to come back, which blows this up to like I
just got goosebumps right now thinking about it, because that
that's a piece that's like caps. That ice is the

(51:51):
cake that reference it, keep it, keeping it in that
ref And I said, I don't understand. He said, okay,
and of course goes into her dialogue or whatever she's doing.
To hear his voice, and she her exact words, Oliver, were,
he says you he says you can't. And I said, okay, shoot,
and she said a corduroy blazer, uh, mismatched matched yepes

(52:17):
that are too short and mismatched such socks and a
rush of emotions, including tears. And I'm back in that
room right now because because that what we buried him in.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Are you kidding me?

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Yeah? It was all he had. He had this old
corduroy blazer that he'd had for quite literally decades.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
And there was a back black pair of pants slacks
that were you know, they weren't. It wasn't a combo,
wasn't a suit. And the socks that he had were mismatched.
They were not. And in my mind, I thought, there's
in May, there's no way. There's now there is no way.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Uh. And so that that's one piece of it, no
big deal, Asterix is. Of course. I'm later speaking to
my mom homes two to this day, and I said
to her, you know, I'm telling her about the experience.
And when I said, you know, the car and she
we both laughed. You know it was parked outside. Easy
answer and then I said, I said that she child
is with him, and I said and I said, no,

(53:16):
that's not and she stopped me to tell me that day.
In fact, before I was born, I thought I was
the only child child that they miscarriage and all of it.
So she was sort of overcome with emotion. And so
it all that to say, who knows, if you ask me,

(53:36):
I'm more convinced that, you know, there's got to be more.
What that is, I don't know. But how do you
how do you argue with that? I mean, it becomes
a little.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
It's an impossibility to do back research on the corduroy
jacket and the mismatching sock. I mean, it's actual impossibility
that that's not possible.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
That you know, I'm still dumbfounded to this day I
tell that story and yet it is verbatim exactly what happened,
and it still to this day blows my mind. Yeah,
I was having a lot of uneasiness, by the way,
when my dad had passed away, you know, up until
that point, a lot of uneasiness. I wasn't sleeping well,

(54:20):
I was, you know, I was regretful about I was
really regretful about the the experience we had had as
a man and a child he had fathered genetically, genetically
at least, and after that experience, it all went away,
it all dissipated. I was. I was, Yeah, it did,

(54:41):
and I was able at that point. That point to
the point I got to in my book where I
wrote the chapter about meeting Bob, because it's kind of
the first time in my life I actually decided to
sit with the idea that I had a construct atractive
who he was. But that came from a place of
there was nothing. It was like blackness. So how can

(55:01):
you form an opinion from something that is nothing, which
means it's just judgment, that's all it is. It's just
judgment against how he had showed up or in many
ways hadn't showed up. And I was able to totally redefine
my relationship with him because.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Of that experience from beyond essentially, it's.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Insane to me that, you know, I really met my dad.
After I met my dad and understood his value in
my life when there was none left body.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a dissimilar
story as far as the relationship with my dad goes.
I mean, things are getting better now, you know, so
we're talking and more regularly, and you know, but it
was rough for a minute, but essentially there is only
compassion and love there. You know. Now you just have realizations,

(55:56):
you know, I mean everyone has their stories. There's patterns
that have existed through his life that I can't possibly
understand that he might have passed down got passed down
from his father to my to me. I mean, there
are so many different reasons, and until you sort of
dig in and really try to understand them, you know,
you're just going to throw it away.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
That's the thing to work, You've got to You've got
to take the time to do that. And the problem
is in these sort of relationships that's tenuous because it's
painful work. It's painful conversations that sometimes you're having by yourself,
you know, with the relationship is inamicable. All of a sudden,
you're stuck with you, yourself, infan you now you got KD.
I've heard I've heard the two of you talk about
about this before. But in my case, there's there their

(56:36):
opportunity at this point for him to come to the table.
He was he was dead, he was gone, and so
the only option I was left with was to sit
with this resentment that was crippling at times for the
rest of my life and use so much, I would
actually say a disproportionate amount of energy to manage the
anxiety and resentment versus the ability to just spend some

(56:57):
time in a space that just is uneasy as the
space I was living in resentment, but to try and
see it differently, and and it came from an experience
as my uncle. So, but that side of my family's
really really small. My grandparents, my grandfather died Owther died
after to Canada after the war, and he passed away,
and my grandmother and he only had two sons, and

(57:19):
each of those two sons only each had one son.
Wow and yeah, and so very very small. And you
know when he passed away, he passed away at I
was in my late twenties. He was fifty four when
he passed away. Suddenly, Uncle and I were emptying his
apartment after and of course I'm in a space that
I've never been. You know, there's a there was a

(57:41):
there was a photo of me, one photo on his
stereo system and it had an inch of dust on it.
It wasn't it wasn't something that other than visually, it
was frequented very often. And if that and I just well,
like I was foreign to this person, this experience, and

(58:05):
at every you know, twenty thirty minutes while we're the minutes,
while we're going to empty and his apartment, packing his thing, separating, sorting,
you know, basically in the home of a stranger, mostly
to me, I mean my uncle. They had a you know,
they grew up together, so the slightly although even to
a large degree, estranged as well. And there'd be a

(58:26):
ring at the buzzer and it was someone coming a
friend to express their condolences. Of course, I'm filled with
with the whole range of emotions. I'm mad, I'm resentful,
I'm I'm pissed off, I'm sad, I'm going through it
all over coaster of emotions. What pierced that was these

(58:49):
people coming and saying, I loved your dad so mad
so much. He meant so much to me. I'm going
to really miss him, and it makes me emotional because
I never looked at him that way. Yeah, ever, I
never looked at him one who had a lot of
value in my life. Yet now one of the most
valuable people in my life because of how I'd been

(59:10):
able to reframe him.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Did you have to reframe him though through other people's experiences?

Speaker 2 (59:16):
I don't know if I had to, but it was
a catalyst for me to do it because these people
who I had never met, I think one out of
the several people, several people that kept them before, and
so I turned to them for guided who are his
closest friends? Who should be pallbearers at his funeral? Who
should be? You know, I ask who could I invite?

(59:37):
You know, it's wild. When you are arm's length from someone,
it's easy to think that their world is small and insignificant, unimportant.
What I realized was he had a lot of people,
a lot of people that cared about him. And so
when I said who could be pallbearers, let's just say
their list was longer than the six I needed. Wow

(59:59):
and through through that, which was definitely another aha moment.
You know, it really did waken me to the fact that,
you know, he was a terrible dad. Terrible couldn't in
my opinion of being a father, But it was clear
to me he was one hell of a friend, and
so what if at that magic spot in life, that

(01:00:20):
so many kids are blessed to have with their parents,
where you hit that stride where it's not really a
parent child relationship anymore. You're you're almost at that age
where you have a lot of shared experience, you've experienced,
you've got some you know, your parents have some perspective,
and you become friends. Well, what if he hadn't died?
What if he had lived? And what if we just
hadn't hit that stride yet? Now again, that's that's you know,

(01:00:43):
the idea that maybe we never would have maybe I
would have sat in resentment ever, but it's enough for
me to think, what if what if we had hit
that Who knows, we might have been the best of
best of friends.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Were you able to dissect though, why he was such
an amazing friend but not an amazing father? I mean
going back into his history, his past, his parents, your grandparents,
his psychology. Did it all add up, you know once
you did the forensics on it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
I mean I think it's hard to do math when
you don't you know, you're you say, what's the answer
to this question? Plus?

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Mm hmm?

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Well two two plus what two plus ten two plus yeah?
Nine times four divided by nine, like, what what what
an idea? So I don't I never had I never
had all those them. You know, you know, my grandfend
father as right after the war. I don't know what
their relationship was. My grandmother was an incredible human and
she often played you know, grandma, grandma dad because of

(01:01:50):
his lack of in my life. So I don't entirely know.
What I do know is that when he me, he
just obviously wasn't prepared to be a dad. And you know,
in the moment, you might say, shame on you. You've
done this thing, have accountability for it. But you know,
we all do things in our lives. We all find

(01:02:11):
ourselves and shit and think, oh my god, how did
I get here? And now I'm expected to deal with
this thing? And I'm not equipped. And some people take
on the task and acquire the skills and learn and
figure things that in other people can't or don't or
don't from their past. Like you said, you know, only
those people know what those puzzle pieces are because oftentimes,

(01:02:31):
you know, mental health in particular is not something that
until recent years, we've really been that open to talking to.
And he was certainly part of a generation that you
never ever spoke about that stuff ever, right if you did,
it was a giant weakness and social ostracization with that too.
And so I don't know, I don't. I don't have
a recollection of him enough to know. Maybe those things

(01:02:53):
were at play too. May maybe he he out on
the rate, you know, or find relationship I should say,
with his dad, but he only he battled with it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
I don't know. I just know one thing that our
relationship as father and son was disenfranchised apps by the
by the notion that while biologically he could be a
dad and I'm I'm kind of happy he could.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
As we show up here together.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Played out. But biology and you know, spirituality in terms
of or you know, our the spirit side of life,
us showing up in it may for that that that
part you have to be ready for and you got
to work on. And that's that that is just called life. Yeah,
and you know, you you can go through life as

(01:03:42):
an inactive participant. And I want to live my life.
But not everybody gets dealt the same same cards. I mean,
not everybody can can can do that, and so.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
That yeah, I think this, I think it's it's extremely relatable.
I think it's a powerful thing to be able to accomplish,
you know, because essentially anyone can. I mean there's degrees obviously,
you know, there's degrees to how bad your father or
of course or someone might be where it's like, no,

(01:04:15):
I'm sorry, you know, you're done. That's the end of it.
You're a fucking complete asshole and that's that. But I
think it's hell, it's just healthy. I mean, even to
reconcile personally after someone has gone, it's it's doable, and
it probably puts you on a nice emotional trajectory through
the rest of your life instead of carrying resentment and

(01:04:38):
carrying anger because that only is it's poison, dude, Physically
it's poison. I mean it can actually kill you, you know, totally,
so if you can find a way to get through that,
you know, after death, especially coming to terms. And I
just love the concept and I'm gonna might steal it
for like a movie idea. But this concept of having

(01:05:00):
a relationship after death with your father or somebody, you
know what I mean, to then take you to another place,
it's pretty great.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Yeah, it's totally powerful. It's the the I guess, like
I'd use to describe it, well, freeing. That's an obviously
it's an obvious one. It was freeing to create. Even
if it was a one sided, one one singular narrative
way of looking at things, it worked for me. And
the other word that it is capacity. You know, it
really gave me the capacity to put that energy towards

(01:05:32):
other things. You know, just because I just because I
ficationship in life doesn't mean every other relationship I have
in life is rosy. You know, yes, other places it's
including including that person in the mirror, right, Like, you
hit a certain stride in life and you think, I mean,
you think, I think time for me to have some
conversations with myself.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
That I've been avoiding for a time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
And when I have those conversations, as painful as they
may be, there they might just enable me to show up,
you know, differently than as long as that positively, then
maybe it's maybe it's time to have those conversations, even
if they're gonna be tough.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Yeah, cool man, Well we're coming to a clothes We're
getting to the end. But you know, as far as
your old life still your life, but your your your
funeral director life, is any any crazy shit happened in there,
you know what I mean? Like through the years, things
are like, oh my god, you know the body fell
off the table. Are just weird things that have happened?

(01:06:25):
Or is it pretty much by the book? Bang bang,
here's what it is. Embalming goes right. No one exploded.
You know, everything's good.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Yeah, yeah, lots of there's lots of great uh you know,
fun funny stories, of course, never at the never at
the cost of a family you're serving.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Around, no, no, no person.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Yeah, but just circumstantially, substantially. I mean, there's so many,
so many funny sunny stories, and.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Give me one to end us out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
So not all right, Well, this is a story. Uh
you know that that my family's family says him a story,
Please tell the story. And I always say yeah, prior
to selling the story. But it's not a story that
I've ever I've never told on a larger scale. So
I can tell tell this story, oh my gosh. And
it is just it is quite the quite the story.
So I'm an intern. I am. I'm working at a

(01:07:13):
funeral home, busy funeral home. I'm based in Canada, so
it's where I grew up. And uh, it is a
blizzard outside, like the snow is coming down sideways, it's
not even coming down, it's coming across. And we are
headed out to a burial, so we're in preceptory. And
it's common for Buddhist families to use a lot of incense,
and so it's also common that the eldest grandson will

(01:07:35):
also accompany the deceased from the funeral home to them
to the seme means I was driving the funeral coaches
the intern but basically means no experience, and the grandson
was sitting the passenger seat beside me with the incense
and dope jawn just a crack because the weather was
terrible to the cemetery, and it is like an open
farmer's field. It is that there isn't a thing to

(01:07:56):
block that weather. You're just getting punched left right and
left right and center the snow and the wind and
the gusts, and it's it's trouble. And of course there are,
like most services, at some form of clergy or a celebrant,
and in this case it was these Buddhist monks who
were in the service. Their temple was actually forty almost
forty minutes away from where we were. So we get

(01:08:19):
to the cemetery, we have this service, and the funeral director,
the senior funeral director, turns to me and says, hey,
can you continue. You take the monks back to the
temple pole, no problem. So I usher them over, put
them in the car. There's I guess the head monk.
If there's three of them, the head monk, the one
who was in charge, and then two sort of supporting

(01:08:39):
actors in the And we're driving along and again weather's awful.
We're driving along and the monk turns to me and
he says, it's very hot. It's very hot. And I said,
oh oh, I said, okay, I'll turn the heat down.
And I had it jackacked. I mean, I was arazing.
I can't imagine how they weren't freezing. I mean they
were wearing their big puffy coats and yeah, I had

(01:09:01):
my big, you know, funeral director coat on, but it
was still I was I was frigging and uh. And
so I turn it down from thirty two down to
like twenty seven. We're driving a long and it is
dead silent. By the way, it's you know, you know,
you don't put the monks back to the temple. It's quiet,
it's like no music. All you're hearing is the buzz
of the fan so and the pelting of the weather

(01:09:22):
on the car. And I'm driving slow, I'm driving lee,
going along, and once again comes to the comes out
of the it comes out of this lima. It's it's hot.
It's really hot. I'm like, fair enough, down we go, knock,
knock the temperature down a little bit, living along, driving along,
doesn't he say it again? It's too hot, too hot?

(01:09:44):
And in my head I think, oh god, because now
at this point is but almost air conditioning coming out
of this thing. I'm thinking, I think it's warmer outside
than it is in this car right now, And so
I instantly think, oh my gosh, how did I not
think of this? The seat heater is probably on? So
so I so I look over and the and the
indix show the seat was on and what let level
it was on? Not on? And I thought, that's really

(01:10:04):
really weird. What I don't understand. And just as I'm
saying it, he says hot hot, and he's kind of
like kind of like himself and like he's as if
like he's sitting on heat. Thinking oh, maybe it's not working,
and he lifts his big puffy jacket up and open
and if a one foot flame basically abrupt from this

(01:10:24):
guy's crotch. Yeah it was, And people think, what do
you mean? A flame from his cross? Quite literally what
had happened was at the cemetery, one of the embers
had caught his robes underneath, and the robes were just
sort of just burning along, real slow burn. It was
just like just like there, and it didn't take long.

(01:10:46):
And the minute it hit the polyester coat and he
added air, it literally ignited. It was like a small
flamethrower coming from our coming from this Maria crotch. Yeah,
from Monk's crotch. And I quite literally said out loud
what the fuck and quickly gone to the car on

(01:11:07):
the highway to the side of the road, ran around
the car, unlocked his belt and quite literally kind of
sumoed him in to a snow bank and started like
piling snow on. Of course, I'm thinking thinking like what
the hell, I'm not connecting the dots in the moment
I think what the hell just happened? In my mind,
I'm thinking the seat heater dysfunction, that's why the light
wasn't on something mechanically, and we just nearly burnt the

(01:11:29):
ass off this mouth. What is happening? And so of
course now he's standing snow covered, the back of his
robe has got a distinct like burn area of the back,
and he won't get back in the car. He thinks
the seat is has malfunctioned as well, so he gets
one of the supporting actors in the back to sit
on the edge of the front of the seat while

(01:11:50):
he got in the back, and then said, take us back,
take us tack, take us to the town. Oh no, no, no,
we're going back to the funeral funeral home. They believe
the story. I'm an intern, they'll fire me in two
I need to go back and match the back of
your ass to that seat, And sure enough we did,
and later that day the manager with funeral home said,
you're lucky you came back, because we would never ever

(01:12:15):
have that story. And that is the story that that's
a story that started my careers and in turn, I
not only buried someone but burn thurmoke.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Wow, amazing, They're hysterical, unbelievable. Amongst flamethrower crotch.

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
Oh my gosh, I'm real you can't make this stuff up, Cody.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
I appreciate you, man, Thank you so much. It's really
great talking to you. I'm excited about your book. Hopefully
you sell a billion copies.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
That would be lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
Yes, yes, everyday legacy right, this is what we're talking about.
Listens for living with purpose right now?

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
You got it?

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Well. I appreciate you, Thank you man. Thanks for your
stories and thanks for your candor honestly, thanks for talking
about your dad. I think it's I think you you
can touch a lot of people with with those with
those stories in your emotion. I mean, as you know
that relatability and being able to sort of reach into
someone's soul a little bit, even if it's just one person,
you can sort of say, oh shit, man, like I

(01:13:15):
feel that I went through the same thing, and they
just feel a little bit better.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
One one person, yea. And I wrote the when when
I wrote the book, I said that, I said, you know,
if this book impacts one person, my job here is done. Done. Yeah, exactly,
And I realized the person that impacted was me.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
Of course.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
It really opened me to a vulnerability that I've not
had before. And uh, you know, the more people that
we can shift this idea of leaving it, leaving a
legacy in it every single day, creating that everyday legacy. Yeah,
and the world, the world for what the world is
to each of us will just be.

Speaker 1 (01:13:45):
I think it's a great way to wake up every
day and say, what am I what?

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
What is that that small little fraction percentage half a percentage?
How am I going to sort of even what am
I going to learn today? How much better today? You know? How?
What what kind of legacy?

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
See?

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Living legacy am I sort of even trying to create
just today even for one small thing so powerful metal? Yeah,
good messaging, all right, brother, thank you, good chat with you, Oliver,
all right, man, talk to see good chat, easy, breezy, fun, fun.
You can tell he's like a public speaker, you know
what I mean. It's just it's nice. You don't have

(01:14:22):
to do so much. You can listen and learn. I
love what he's talking about too, that kind of this
idea of a living legacy. You know, we do we
think of that. It's like, oh, what's what is it
going to be at the end? But why not think
about it now? You know how we're creating that legacy
whatever it means to you. I don't know what the

(01:14:44):
hell legacy I'm leaving behind. Jesus Christ. I know, I
know people like me and I make people laugh. You know.
I'm a I have good insight into relationships, I think
and sort of you know, kind of bigger questions. I'm
a philosophical, you know, devastatingly handsome. That's a legacy. I'm

(01:15:07):
definitely gonna leave behind someone who knows how handsome they are,
you know, I think it's important any who'sy. All Right,
I'm gonna leave now. I have things to do. But yeah,
that was good. All right. The revelers, is that what

(01:15:28):
we call them. I don't even know, all right, revelers,
revel piece
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