April 21, 2025 • 53 mins
Actress, singer, and Former Miss USA Vanessa Williams joins the revelry with her brother Chris!
From their roots to their globe-trotting careers, hear how they were practically destined to become performers.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
What it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling railvalry.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
No, no, sibling RAI hopeful you don't do that with
your mouth.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Sibling revelry.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Sometimes of snow co found. Sometimes the sound goes wrong.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Here you go and.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
When you the chance, he can't.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
He can't help himself.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Less because nineteen ninety one, that song was not in
Case you Need, in Case you Forgot, Vanessa. It was
nineteen ninety one, and it was much a It's one
of those memories you know when you hear a song
and it takes you right back to where you were
in your life and what you were going through and
what you were feeling. That song does that for me.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
So yeah, that's like one of those core memory songs,
right it does.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, yeah, it's that. And then we built this city
on rock and roll. Those two.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh hi guys, welcome. Hey, it's nice to see. Where
is everybody, Vanessa. You're in London, right.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
I'm in London. I got a show tonight. I yeah,
so I'm doing devil Re's product or across the street at.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
The Dominion Theater. Oh fine, Yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
How's that going? Are you enjoying every second?
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (01:48):
I mean we've been doing it since pretty much like
almost entire year. We did the workshop last January for
two weeks, and then we came back and started rehearsals
in London May June. Then we went to Fun doing
through August, and then came back in September. So we've
been running here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
For Wow, so you're ready for You're ready for Mutation.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
And then his theater something that you've done for a
long long time.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Yeah, that was a I mean I major to musical
theater in college. Then first I've done off Broadway in
that first Broadway show was nineteen ninety four, so that's
already Jesus Wow. Thirty one years ago did Kiss the
Spider Woman. I've worked with Sisley Tyson and Tripped a
bantiful I did Into the Woods with Sondheim and Find
(02:34):
of done After Midnight.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I just did Potus two years ago with Leo Delaria
and Julie White and.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Wow, So you're a real actor. Yeah, Kate just does
rom coms and Netflix shows, and I pretty much sticked
Hallmark and Fox.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Chris, Where are you Are you in La?
Speaker 6 (03:01):
I'm in La.
Speaker 7 (03:01):
Yeah, I'm in La right now. That's the moment. I'm
usually I'm going all over the place. I'm traveling a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So are you.
Speaker 6 (03:08):
Yeah, I'm fifty two countries now, WHOA I like to
get around?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
What are you just for fun? Are you doing this
for work?
Speaker 6 (03:17):
Just for fun? Good for you? Don't work?
Speaker 7 (03:19):
I mean I shot a movie in Bulgaria, which is interesting,
and shot some stuff on other countries. But yeah, I'd
just like to see different. Like the more I see
other countries and other places, the more it gives your
perspective on your own place, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (03:35):
Without it like people are people everywhere all across the world.
You know, people are crying, laughing, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, So I had a trip like that actually with
my mom. I was nineteen years old and I just
quit college because I didn't want to do that anymore.
And she took me to She took me to India
and I was there for three weeks and experiencing sort
of an entirely different civilization in my mind. And I
came back with me this isn't realistically, your life isn't changed,
(04:04):
but it does sort of shift your perspective.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
And Allie Ollie was like the scene in White Lotus
when she was sitting down and she was like, I
don't know, but I.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Just that that was so fun.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I just really like traditioning and yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It was incredible and the best thing I took from it,
the most important thing, was that you know, you you
think you're entering a world of extreme poverty, and of
course you are at times, but the joy that a
lot of these people had with nothing was just so
incredible to see. And that was the perspective shift. It
was like, wow, you are there's so much happy and
(04:45):
smiling and laughing. And then of course a saw dude
chased me down to the Ganges and wanted to kill
me because I filmed. I filmed him with a camera,
not understanding that. You know, the thought I was, I
don't know what was happening, and and this old Sadu
literally was screaming after me, and I ran down to
the Ganges and var Nasi.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I would give it anything, I would get anything. Do
you have seen that, Chris? You just gave me an
idea that what an amazing thing to know how many
countries you've seen? I now I want to go through
and kind of think about because I love to travel
so much, and I've never really thought about it like that,
(05:28):
like how many countries have I seen? And you just
think that there was such a short time on this earth.
There's so many places to see.
Speaker 7 (05:36):
Even when you say something and like I was in
saying thirty six years ago and it's completely changed, you
go through it again, and so you can never really
get you know, you need a sense of some countries
and stuff.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
But like I've been back to Italy. I love Italy.
Speaker 7 (05:51):
I've been going back, you know, two three times a
year in the last last two years.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
So I really want to move there. That's like.
Speaker 7 (05:58):
And it's nice to have vanessas base in London, so
now I can I can go from there, which is good.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
You studied there your junior year abroad, were at Georgetown,
so that she gave you your Italian flavor. They lived
in the former Rockefeller estate looking over Florence and Pisa.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Like in college, how.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Did you how did you score that pad?
Speaker 6 (06:24):
Georgetown?
Speaker 7 (06:25):
My university owns the villa, so we had twelve students
there in this beautiful it just overlooks the the Florence.
And then I remember the first time I walked into
the Villa of like ten in the morning, nine in
the morning, and there was just a miss over all
of Florence and you could just see the dome, the Duomo.
And I was like, Oh, this.
Speaker 6 (06:44):
Is why the Renaissance ap in here, because that looks
like a painting. Yeah, you know, so I'm obsessed with Italy.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Wow, we're Italian. We're half Italian. And when I remember
I like went to Sicily for the first time and
I was like because we're Sicilian, and I was like,
everything functions better here. My skin, my hair, my life,
my personality. I belong in Italy and I'm with you.
(07:14):
I would love to move to Italy. I would love
to or at least spend a lot of my year
in Italy. It's like my one of my.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
You did the ancestry, we did the ancestor Dana. So
I'm twelve percent suppose Italian.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
What what is your hair? What is everything? What's your
is it?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It must be?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
It goes, It's it's pretty complicated. I'll have to pull
it up. Chris you can mark time while I'm doing this.
But yeah, I mean that's the two things. When you
said that your trip to India changed your life.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
When I went to Ghana a couple of years ago,
that was life changing because I got a chance to
not only go into the slave trade museum of castle,
but we do this thing called the Last Bath, and
the local chief came up to are the women that
were traveling with me and gave us like a laurel
of fresh leaves and and we all had bowls with
(08:07):
our Ghanaian names. Mine was Ajua, which means born on Monday.
And we took our bowls down barefoot down the path
where they used to bring the slaves chain for the
last bath before mm hm hip.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
So it was trippy.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Was that emotional?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Just you're sitting in the shill, go into the water
and you're holding the bowl and it gives you some
spirits and he's like just you know, talk to your ancestors,
and it was just like, thank you for making the
trip to make my life possible. If you didn't survive,
I wouldn't be on the other side.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
So it was and it was it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean, did you feel did you feel a certain
energy like when you're you know what I mean, Like
that's just profound, deep energy.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
It seem exactly do you know IgE of what our
family is.
Speaker 7 (08:57):
Yeah, mine is different from obviously her twelve percent, Nigerian
twelve percent, Southern Italy eleven percent, Gone on Ivory Coast
ten percent, benin Togo ten percent, Scottish eight percent, Denmark
four percent, Central West Africa four percent, England three percent,
Senegal three percent, Molly three percent, your Yoruba land and
(09:19):
bent To People's three percent, Spain two percent, Cameroon two percent,
ban To two percent, Philippines, Nigerian woodlands one percent, another like.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Iceland one percent, France, Wales. So it's like very so
you're on a mix. Wow for Muths. We're really MutS.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
And both of our parents have brown eyes as well,
so there's successive traits on both sides.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
The grandfather had but our grandfather had blue eyes.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
Are all of my father's siblings, you know, our aunts
and uncle. So it's you know, it's the mixt percent English.
You know, so he was what were you English? So
it all yeah stuff, but.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Our American history.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I just pulled I remember this. I'm I'm to
two and a half percent North African. Oh, I feel
I feel pretty solid about My brother.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Riders to two point six percent North African, and he's, oh,
he's one one percent for them, and then he's actually
two point six uh percent West African.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Right, Yeah, I'm one point three percent Iranian. Wow, I
just knew it. I could have guessed it. I could
have guessed all that.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Yeah, when you we're actually pretty we're kind of we've
got to we're mutts too, but but our biggest thing
is is Sicilian and then everything else. We're all over
East Asian, North African, Middle East. So from DNA to
(11:12):
like family background, where were you both, Where were you born?
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 7 (11:18):
So we're from Westchester, New York, a small hamlet called
Millwood in the town of Newcastle, which is about forty
five minutes outside the city. So it's not upstate. I
don't consider it upstate. Albany upstate. So we had close
proximity to New York City. Our parents took us to
Broadway shows, the museums, to all kinds of events in
(11:40):
the city.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
And I did live in the Bronx for years, so
I've got Bronx cred East.
Speaker 7 (11:50):
We were one of the first black families in our town,
so we were the yeah, and when I graduated, there
was twenty black kids that of twelve hundred, But we
didn't really know any better, just because you know, that's
all I knew, all we knew.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
So we were a parent.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
But your parents decided to settle in that town.
Speaker 7 (12:12):
There were both music teachers, elementary school music teachers, and
my dad supposedly took my where my mom was working
and where my dad was working and made a giant
circle around the map and they just.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
Started looking for a place and to live.
Speaker 7 (12:24):
We found this really great, great neighborhood and we were
there for almost fifty years.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
What what is your age difference?
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Four years?
Speaker 6 (12:33):
Happy?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
And are you full siblings?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
God, okay? So and there are any other siblings?
Speaker 6 (12:42):
Nope, they could only handle two of us.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So when you were so, you were born, your mom
and music teachers. Were you immersed in music as children completely?
Speaker 5 (12:54):
Both our parents taught elementary music teachers. My mother was
the voice teacher in Austin. My dad was the instrumental
in Elmsford. So there was there was like lessons going
on all the time. In our house, like my mom
would be downstairs teaching somebody piano. My dad would be
upstairs on the clarinet, trombone, trumpet, so constant music all
(13:17):
the time, people coming in out of the house. And
then of course they made us play. So I played.
Speaker 7 (13:22):
Were required through high school to play an instruments and supposedly,
you know, and they chose. They chose the most difficult instruments,
like Vanessa playing the French horn, which is like the hardest.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Uh wow uh.
Speaker 7 (13:37):
And I played the obo, which was like Mason, we chose,
I chose the I'm.
Speaker 6 (13:42):
Like I chose.
Speaker 7 (13:47):
The philosophy was if you learn something at the highest
level of the hardest one, anything else after that will
be easier to play.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
You're like, dad, Dad, what, what's an instrument that all
the girls are going to like?
Speaker 6 (13:58):
He's like the obo?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Son.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So, so your dad was a horn player. Did he
play any other inters, piano, guitar, anything like that or
was he just mostly baxophone slup you know when he
was yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome and have music.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Did they play professionally before they were teachers? Is this
something that they it was just sort of a passion.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Well, my mom definitely played piano and Oregon going through
up the church and and all kinds of groups and
then when and then growing up she used to play
at church for holidays and weddings and all that kind
of stuff. So very great at the piano. And dad
played in the Army arm band. Yeah, so he was
(14:49):
he was in Korea for two years, uh, playing in
the army band.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
And he used to do.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Parades and stuff with his his students. So we would
always be dragged to the Memorial Day parade to watch
his class go.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And then we ended up you know, there was a
marketing man in my high school.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
So they're also.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
Part of a choral group, a baroque choral group that
every Sunday night we'd have to go and then rehearsed
and we you know, so we were co constantly.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Surrounding music that's intense. Baroque is a very yeah, very
intense music, like right, it's all the yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Balk and handle and yeah, lots of pews, lots of
church going in the concerts.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yes, wow you so you guys like had no choice.
It was it was like it was just ingrained in you. Chris,
do you still do do you still have any connection
to music. Do you play or do you sing?
Speaker 7 (15:48):
Interestingly interestingly enough, I did a small little ditty of
when I was like twenty two years old. I found
these cassettes that I had written like thirty years thirty
six years ago, that I wrote these silly songs. And
Vanessa's daughter, my niece, lion Babe, her and her partner.
(16:09):
They're a very popular group. They did Coachella a couple
of years ago. And I found this this tape that
I did thirty six years ago, and I was like, oh,
this is pretty good, and so I gave it to
them and they're like, oh, of course this is good,
and they just remade it. No, and they've been playing
in the club. So that's my my latest year. So
(16:30):
and Lucas is a DJ, so he's been playing playing
the song in the club and they.
Speaker 6 (16:35):
Said he's getting a response.
Speaker 7 (16:37):
Oh that's my like recent connection to music.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
But it's the name of the song.
Speaker 6 (16:42):
It's called physical Physical.
Speaker 7 (16:44):
It's a really silly well it's yeah, it's a nice
little dance too, and it's fun.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
It's fun.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
That's so fun.
Speaker 6 (16:51):
But I play, I mean I played the saxophone like
once a year.
Speaker 7 (16:55):
Just take it out just to try to play something,
and you gotta really, you gotta gotta really keep up
with it, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Oh, I'm sure I have a female saxophonist in my
Her name is Rachel Maser. She's amazing. And I love
the saxophone. It's like, uh, I feel like it's one
of those instruments that when you hear it, when it's
done right, especially in recording, that it just like it's
(17:22):
it's just one of those instruments that just ends up
standing out, Like the great saxophone solos, you know, you
just never forget them.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
Yeah, much sexier than THEO.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
No, I know, but that's what I'm about to say.
The saxophone can also bring back memories of like soft
core on cinemax, you know, like looking at the Yeah,
like some like hazy, sort of guzy red shoe diaries. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
So, Vanessa, when you were were you a good big
sister or did you guys have like a really good
relationship or was it challenging it?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, I was about to ask that because four years
apart is an interesting gap.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
Yeah, we were never in school at the same time,
except elementary school maybe when I was in fifth grade
and you were in first, but besides that, we were
always in different schools, so you know, he was the
annoying tattle tale until he got to college and then
we ended up getting much closer.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
And she was always four years had just to leave
a trail blaze for me to go, Oh what do I.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Have to se like, now what I have to step in? Oh?
Your sister did this, and your sister did this, and
your sister I'm like, okay.
Speaker 7 (18:32):
So she had already blazed through middle when she was
middle school president.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
Then I had to become middle school president.
Speaker 7 (18:39):
And then she went to do all this theater and
all these accolades in high school and I came in.
Then I was like, okay, well she won Miss America,
and now do I have to start lifting weights.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
At What were you when.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
You won Miss America? Vanessa went twenty, So were you
doing pageants in high school?
Speaker 4 (18:59):
No?
Speaker 3 (18:59):
No.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
I was at Syracuse majoring in musical theater, and the
local board members would go and look at who's in
the shows, and they kept asking me, And I was
supposed to do Serra no de bergerac at Syracuse Stage.
I got cast in it, which would have got me
equity points, and the show got canceled and I had
April free, and I said called my mom and I
(19:21):
was like, I think I should do this thing. She's like,
is there scholarship money? Oh yes, I well, then do it.
So my parents didn't even come.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Up for it.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
One, won it in April, went to State's July, won that,
and went to Miss America September one the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
So within six.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Months I was, oh my god, that was crazy to.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
London from my junior year abroad and obviously myke couldn't
make it, but my roommate was ready and didn't make
it to London. But now I'm here forty years later.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You know, that's amazing. Well, my wife was Miss teen Massachusetts.
I don't wan, don't want to brag, but you know,
and then she she was Runner Up USA, so you know,
oh yeah, wait she was.
Speaker 6 (20:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I didn't know this.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Oh yeah, oh.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, Aran was Miss runner Up Team USA.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah. It was one of the reasons why I almost
didn't marry her.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
She do we have this footage?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Oh yeah, pictures and oh it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Oh. I am so fascinated by the pageant world because
I remember being little when when we were young, when
I was little. It was like I never missed it.
It was like, I mean, I watched it every single
time from you know, miss Universe, Miss Usa. I was
obsessed with it.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I want to go back real quick because a four
year spread, so growing up, basically it was passing ships
kind of. He was the annoying little brother. Were you
sort of on her coattails meeting like you wanted recognition,
you wanted her to recognize or do you okay with
sort of the power dynamic Chris.
Speaker 7 (21:02):
Well, it was it was four years was just enough
where she was like a little bit of a rebel.
Speaker 6 (21:09):
So I was trying to be the good boy, you know,
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I want to get into that.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
She got a lot more trouble than I did.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Really, but you were like class president, you were at this,
you were at that, right, I mean, so you had
a little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Huh, what kind of trouble did you get into me?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Everything? Good? Lord?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
I was I thought you were talking when I was
burning things down, like my my reputation. You know, if
my parents said you're not allowed to go, I would
sneak out and go and then just think you know,
I was grounded.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Okay, guess what I'm still going to go out. I'm
still going to take the heat.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
And so you know, hitch I hitch hike. I got
my stereo taken away. I I had a boyfriend and
we came in late and grounded it yet again.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
I couldn't go to the prom because I was grounded.
Always in trouble.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
But the.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
Well, yeah, smoke pot. In the high school, we had
a greenhouse. My dad my parents were avid gardeners. My
dad built a greenhouse downstairs. And uh, I had a
friend over and we were smoking in the greenhouse and
I dumped the bowl in the.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
To get rid of it in the in the dirt.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
And funds into my room like months later, like I
dare you?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
You planted pot?
Speaker 5 (22:28):
And I was, and I honestly did not know what
because I didn't remember and I knew it wasn't.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Stupid enough to actually he was like, you planted it?
Speaker 5 (22:38):
And I really And I was like I don't. Don't
you talking about? And so again got ground You're like.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
And then my father became the best pot and then
he started planting.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Dumped you dumped the bowl out and there was seeds
in the bowl and it grew. This is back when
this is back when our.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Seeds in Oliver decided one time to try to to
He tried to plant to be have a little green
thumb plants and marijuana plants up in the hills.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah. Yeah, a few weed stories. I mean the first
time I ever planted weed, they grew like one hundred
feet tall. Didn't know what I was doing, you know,
there was no trimming, there was no nothing. And then
we see like a bug on it. I'm like, oh,
we got a pesticide it and they turned like pink.
And then we tried it, and then we dried out
all the leaves, stripped the leaves, and then crushed the
(23:37):
leaves up, not even understanding that the buds is what
it actually gets you high. We rolled these pesto joints
and we were giving them around and people were coughing
and throwing up and it was a disaster. But everyone
was so young that they were like, oh that's good shit,
Like I can't even coughing this much. This is amazing.
They're not getting high, they're just going to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Oh my god. So you were a trouble maker. I
like Mess.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
I like that.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
That's your family nicknamed Mess. Yeah, my dad actually became
famous because now I've told this story so many times.
At one time I got in trouble and he said, well,
you don't deserve and I slammed the door after getting
into a fight with my parents or my mom or something,
and he came went to the garage, came up, got
his electric screwdriver and took my door off the hinges
(24:39):
and put in the garage.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Get okay, great, move that door again.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
And I didn't have promises for like at least two months.
Literally no privacy in my room.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (24:54):
I should have known better. And then my dog got
taken off after I slammed it. So try to put it.
I started from the sheet up and like, no, you
don't deserve privacy.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah. Wow, Well, not to get all psychological, but where
do you think that rebelliousness came from? You know what
I mean? Do you think you were just born with
that sort of piston vinegar? Or was there a reason
for it? You know?
Speaker 6 (25:20):
Well?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I I think.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
I mean, my mother and I butted heads a lot,
and the more I got to kill her, and I
knew that she was a troublemaker and an upstart and
very vocal, and so that fire in my belly certainly
was from her.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, what's your sign?
Speaker 5 (25:38):
I'm I am piscy uh sagittarian moon and a cancer
rising Venus isn't Aquarius mars Is and leoh.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I would have thought you were a fire sign.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
Well, the I think the the satritage moon of adventure
or whatever, and and uh yeah. But also I'm such
a mother and such a come let me fix it.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Okay everybody, So that's I'm a cancer rising too.
Speaker 6 (26:09):
Okay, hmm, double scorpio, because.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Everybody you ever meet that's in decides is like, oh.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I have a double clue.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I did my thing, and I was like, I know
I'm a virgo, but like I'm born in a full moon,
I'm something rising. I don't know, pale moon. I'm pale
moon the way I want to go back. So did
you witness Did you think you saw who your mother
was and be able to witness that and you took
(26:45):
that on or found that is to be a part
of you.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Yeah, I think I matched her energy. She came from Buffalo,
she had, you know, like an urban always achiever and
so much expectation, and she wanted to get out of
there on the first thing smoke and as soon as
she got went to college and married my dad that
summer and got out. So, you know, she came from the.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Streets of Buffalo, which is still urban.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
But was from Long Island, grew up in Oyster Bay,
you know, so you know, picked beans and farm kind
of that really relaxed, chill environment, big family, very very affectionate.
So it was a thank god we had our dad
to be the the xicalle counter balance because my mom
(27:33):
you know, didn't give physical touch. Really, it's really hard
for her to be loving. And I remember my dad
read to us every night, and I remember having talk
with my Dad's like why can't mom love me? Why
can't And he would say, it's been really tough for her.
Mom have tough childhood. So that was that was our balance.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Thank god.
Speaker 7 (27:53):
She was not a morning person, was at least a
morning person, so there was a great counterbalance between the
two of them.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
More she like didn't trust me and was always kind
of putting limitations on me. I broke out of it,
so we were head to head for a long time.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
You know, It's interesting and there's a reason for this
sort of line of questioning because you know, I have kids.
Kate has kids and they're are My oldest is seventeen.
You're getting to the ages now where you know, rebellion
is natural and it's real. And then as far as
parenting goes, i'm I'm not a hypocrisy is my biggest
(28:34):
pet peeve. I don't understand it essentially, And when I
look back on my childhood, Arou'm fifteen, sixteen, seventeen and
the things that I did, And then now I'm trying
to parent. Do you give your children? Or how come
your mom didn't understand who she was and use that,
you know, as far as now raising you meaning, oh wait,
(28:57):
this is who I was? How am I now? Why
am I getting on these kids so hardcore?
Speaker 6 (29:03):
You know?
Speaker 5 (29:05):
I think my dad gave me the grace to be free,
and then my mother would try to counteract that, so
I think, and I also think my mother wanted to
protect me because you know, I think she saw the
lens that, oh my god, she's not gullible because my
dad trusted everybody, and she didn't.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Want that that I have for my dad to affect me.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
And of course I got burned because you know, obviously
you know that you know I resigned from Miss America
after these photos came out, and that was me trusting
a local photographer who I didn't have a release from
and me being open and like, oh, I trust them,
and she could see that that was a part of
me that was like my dad. So it was always
trying to like, you know, kind of hone and cut
(29:51):
that instinct down that I had for trusting. So I
think she was try maybe and I.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Think to like, you know, so, especially for girls and
their moms, there is that time. I think boys do
the same thing, but it's a little bit different, like
we I was reading this somewhere I thought it was
really interesting. But we have to individuate from our mothers.
And the more your mom identifies with you, the more
you push against it. It's like, you know, and it's
(30:21):
like you aren't me, I'm not you. Let me. I
need to go be myself, my own person. That happens
in your teenage years, like fifteen sixteen with girls sometimes fourteen,
and it's really intense, I think, much more intense than
it is for the boys and their fathers.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
And the more.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Your mom tries to hold on, I think, or any
mother tries to hold on really tight, you're it's like
you're just gonna be You're in for it, Like you
kind of gotta let your girls go and make their mistakes,
you know, and be there for them when they make
the mistake, you know. And it's such a hard thing
(31:05):
because you know, it's like like they say that there
was this great research done that if your kids aren't
doing that, then they're not following like the actual nature
of how we're supposed to be growing and individuating. Because
you want your kids to push you away. That's sort
of like what we're meant to do to survive.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
You know, how did you how do you with your children,
you know, watching them grow up and go through their
sort of bellious nature if they had one, how did
how are you different in the way that you handled that,
you know from your mother?
Speaker 6 (31:42):
Maybe?
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Yeah, I think my mom was so concerned about what
everybody was going to think about her and us as
a family.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
So we had to keep it up here the status
he here.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
Or keep it you know, and got it every time
there was some scandal or any kind of you know,
you know, not a perfect.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Picture that she'd come and attack my kids.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
I mean, you know, I've got four or three from
my first husband and second from Rick Fox, who you know,
so has two parents that are in.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
The in the media, you know.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
So we wanted to make sure that she had the
freedom to make mistakes and we'd be there to support her.
Who cares if everybody else don't read any comments. So
it was much more. We weren't trying to isolate her,
but it was like, who cares, We'll handle it, you know,
it's not that big of a deal, and don't try
to even replicate anything that we've done.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
My eldest kind of felt, I mean, she went.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
To a different school because all my kids actually moved
back to my hometown, so they all went to my school.
So she had a hard time kind of being she
was the first and trying to being her own, her
own entity. So she had up leaving school and going
to Sacred Heart for a couple of years, and she
went to boarding school just so she could have her
own identity and nobody knew who she was, but the
other kids were were fine.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, and then Chris, what about you, I mean, how
is it a different experience? Because Kate and I have
been doing this for years now, and it's so interesting
with age dynamic and parents and perception, and you know,
Vanessa might have one idea of how her parents were
and then you might have another. And we've seen that
that across all siblings.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
You know.
Speaker 7 (33:21):
Yeah, I think well, since we were you know, exactly
four years apart, the it was hard to see such
a such a trailblaze that she was. She was blaming
through to try to figure out what my.
Speaker 6 (33:36):
Legacy was going to be. Mm hmm.
Speaker 7 (33:38):
So I went to I was actually gonna be I
wanted to be a sports broadcaster. So I wanted to
go to the best school in the country, which was Syracuse,
which is New House School, which is you know, I
think the Gumbles went there, Brian A, Bob Constants anyway,
and I did not go specifically because I couldn't do
another four years of being her brother and not having
(34:00):
my own identity. So I went a complete different direction.
I went to Georgetown and just got a liberal arts degree,
and I was going to go to law school and
I was going to be a lawyer, and uh, you know,
took the alsats and was going to defer year to
go to Georgetown Law School. And I actually two weeks
after I graduated from Georgetown, I drove out, drove out
to LA and I stayed with stay with her, and
(34:23):
uh I did I knew? I I mean, I'm a performer.
I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer. I
was in then I was like, nigg will be an
entertainment lawyer.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
That wasn't That wasn't good.
Speaker 7 (34:32):
So I was doing the in the recognistry, doing record
industry stuff at at Vanessa's label and with the president
and just trying to figure out what I want to do.
And then I did a play when I was like
twenty five because every kept going, well, when are you
going to get to performing? When are you gonna get
to acting? Because all my friends are lawyers, bankers, businessmen.
(34:54):
So I figured, you know, that's what I was going
to be as well. And there's no stage for how
to be I'm an actor. You just have to just
do it and get out there and put yourself. But
so I looked at it as my grad school and
at twenty five, I did a show and they're like, well,
when are you going to start doing this? So then
I started, uh, you know, because uh it was I
(35:16):
told myself in complete debt and credit card debt because
that was my grad school, so that's how I was looking
in And then I got a TVs.
Speaker 6 (35:24):
I did some small things.
Speaker 7 (35:25):
We did Fresh Prints of bel Air together and there's
some small things here and there, and then I got
a TV show.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
On the on the WB called The Hype.
Speaker 7 (35:33):
It was a sketch comedy show because I do a
lot of characters and that kind of stuff. I got
my cheekiness from my mom was really sharp and funny
and uh so they knocked out all my debt and
then after that I got Curtin Enthusiasm and Dodgeball and
then from there it.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Was just that's right. I started on w B. That's
how I got my first TV show, My Guy to
Becoming a rock Star a million years ago.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Oliver actually played as the song the other day and
we're like, this is correct.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Excited to record? Wait, hold on, I want to go
real quick. Going back, So the trailblazing of of of Vanessa. Yeah,
talk about sort of having to or the pressure of,
or the expectations that you might have put on yourself
to sort of follow in the footsteps of Was there
(36:23):
pain or struggle there or envy or fuck you know
what I mean?
Speaker 6 (36:29):
It was tough.
Speaker 7 (36:29):
Well, I knew she was gonna win Miss America. When
I was watching it, I'm like, she's gonna win. Watch
gonna win. But I had a completely confidence and me,
she's gonna do it. So it was hard for me
to even there was no small sibling robbery. Uh you
know before that, once you did that, I was trying
to figure out, well, what am I gonna where's my
my port uh portionated?
Speaker 6 (36:51):
And since remember you have only one phone, I think
in the in the in the early eighties, every phone call,
I never got a phone call.
Speaker 7 (37:00):
I was so it was you know, I was trying
to struggle to get my own identity. So that's also
why I went to Georgetown to have a whole different
experience in college. And uh uh so then when she
started what she was the even watching her going through
all her trial and tribulations, I was in college when
(37:22):
all this stuff went down. But you know, as a family,
we've always learned to be fiercely protected of each other,
regardless of if if there's rivalry or is you know,
you're loyal to your family. And I got in the fight.
It's when I was in in in and did Yeah,
I got into a couple of fights.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Just people talking shit or whatever.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Exactly exactly, Vanessa, what did that time?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
What did that feel like for you at the time?
Did it feel so like was it just an incredibly
violating experience?
Speaker 5 (38:04):
It was so huge that by the end it was
like who are they talking about? I mean when every
news station everyone is like jumping on a plane to
get it. I mean I had news crews waiting for
me all over, camped out in front of my house.
I had to hide at my lawyer's house down the street,
so no one was It was insane because again there
(38:27):
was only a few, you know, a few network shows,
and so it was nuts. And then watching c make
comments about John Television, it was so big. It's like
they don't even know who I am, you know, So
it was enormous.
Speaker 7 (38:43):
Like white people did not like the fact that she
was the first blackness America. And then there's some black
people that didn't say she wasn't black enough. So you
could never win on you know, basically, you can't win.
So you just have to take it and just let
it go through you and and uh and persevere through it.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
She did.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah, It's like it's like a roller coaster. Ride you
never wanted to be asked to be on.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
You're like, wait a.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Minute, yeah, you're just it's like you're yeah, yeah, and
in negates any kind of intellectual talents that you had.
So all the years, all the shows that had been
previously anything, uh, you know, any interview that I had,
it did matter because I was a scandalized beauty queen
and to break down the judgment was so so severe
(39:30):
it took me years, it did.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
I was about to say, how do you deal with
something like that? Because at the end of the day,
obviously intellectually we know that fuck these people. They don't
know what the fuck they're talking about. They can say
what they want, but I know who I am, so
fuck them, all right. It's much easier said than done.
So how did you.
Speaker 6 (39:53):
Remember she was? She was funny, full grown rush woman,
young girl.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, so you let that seep into you And then
how did you sort of deal with it? And how
were you able to sort of get through it and
finally be like you know what?
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Yeah, Just so twenty one is when it all. I
only had like a month left of appearances, so I
had done ten months of Miss America.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
So so the.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
I think I definitely threw myself into I'm going to
prove to everybody, so I kind of committed to just
you wait and see kind of attitude. And then I
got harsh lessons that you know, talent doesn't matter, You're
still going to be judged and you're still going to
I got crazy, crazy offers from you know, scripts that
(40:44):
were horrible, and then taking meetings with people that I
knew I wasn't going to get it, but they just
wanted to say, Oh, I took the meeting with the
former Miss America. So I that whole Hollywood, you know,
you know, all the dinner parties that people go to
and all that shatter that everybody's talking.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Yeah, So I was the butt of all those jokes
for years. But it always my mother was.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
She still she still had resentments of remembered comedians who
had said something about them, like in their opening blogue,
and she's like, I don't like I don't like Selen.
Speaker 7 (41:17):
My mother remember, remembered all of everything.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I think there are certain women like what you were
sort of put through, like put through the ringer in
a time when people found those things to be acceptable,
which wouldn't be acceptable right now. But like Saint God,
you had that fire spirit that could get you through it,
because I think that, you know, sometimes I look at
(41:40):
these young girls and it's a very different time than then,
like you know, you had. I think you like the intensity,
it's to wish you experience what that that kind of
you know, the microscope and all of the judgment and
all of the all of the ship being coming at you.
I feel like young girls feel that every day on
(42:04):
social media, like they have this sense of like, you know, uh,
they can be shamed so quickly, and they could be
gossiped about and one little thing goes it's everything's so
exposed now. But not everybody has that fire, that that
spirit that can really like push them through it. And
I think when women and young girls here, like when
(42:27):
you went through something like that and actually hear it,
I think it's so important for young girls to hear
how you can get through the hardest of those kinds
of moments because it's still happening on a on a
smaller scale, but like right in the right in here,
you know, and and you you had that tenfold you know,
(42:48):
and but somehow you were able to just power through it.
And and then and then have come through with you know,
your talent and success. It's like amazing.
Speaker 5 (42:59):
And social media, as you said, it's immediate, like there's
no like reason, it goes on fire. Something somebody bucks
up and it is on blast worldwide.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, I mean, I guess if there's enter any silver
lining to that. We move so quickly now the pacing
of sort of you know, oh my god, bang, it
burns so hot and then it goes away. It's like
I just ride it out and in a week you'll
be done, whereas back in the day it was not
a week. I mean, it was like months on end.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
But I but I think what we're tapping, like what
what's so interesting is like how does one have that resilience?
Like how do how do you instill?
Speaker 6 (43:37):
I think it's our parents, that's right. Parents are were
were We were a unit.
Speaker 7 (43:43):
We were a family unit where our parents really made
sure that we were well rounded, focused, well read individuals
so we could represent ourselves no matter what. And I
I think the structure of ours, our parts were together
for forty six.
Speaker 6 (44:04):
Years until my dad, my dad passed, so we had
a nice you know base to which to go from
which the you know.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Floor is from but also a great combination of realism
and love too, because even even though my mother wasn't
tremendously affectionate at all, she if anything happened, she was
my biggest cheerleader.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
When I was going through.
Speaker 5 (44:25):
Divorces and stuff, she was like, she deserves a divorce.
Listen to what she's saying. So she always stood up
for me as a woman. And then my dad when
it all came crashing down, and at twenty one years.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Old, and yeah.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
He picked me up and h and we were still
in hiding and stuff, and he said, we were in
the car and he said, well, you really blew it
ness and that's all.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
That's all I said. I said, yeah I did, And
that was it.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
That was that was it.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
That was it. And then it's just like how do.
Speaker 5 (44:53):
We how do we get through this together? So it
was wasn't judgment and how dare you what?
Speaker 4 (44:57):
An idiot? What were you thinking?
Speaker 2 (44:59):
It was like, wow, yeah, you blew it?
Speaker 4 (45:01):
Yeah I did. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
And then from then on, from that point on, did
your dad was your dad able to sort of give
you nuggets of advice or was it just kind of
like maybe you blew it? Now you got to clean
it up type.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Yeah, surrounding us with helpful people. Yeah, they were always
there to support. So having family and friends that believe
there was like a local They did a local parade
in front of my house, you know, saying that, I
mean like our little town. So I had all that
love to support.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah. And then your brother, I mean that's tough for
you too, Chris. I mean I'm not taking any of
the Vest's experience obviously is way gnarlier, but as the
younger brother too, having to deal with that ship. Of course,
you got in fights, you.
Speaker 6 (45:46):
Know, tennis, my friends and members, everybody.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Is watching you gnarly.
Speaker 6 (45:51):
Yeah, it was, it was crazy, It was it was nice.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah, it's crazy. Did you guys have conversations at that point,
you know, where you had heart to heart? So was
it kind of you separated yourself a little bit from
the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
I wish you had gotten that.
Speaker 5 (46:05):
I wish you had gone to Syracuse because I was
only there for I never went back.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
So you.
Speaker 7 (46:11):
There, but your but your her legacy is so strong
and so many different things.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
She's been so successful in so many different arenas. You
know from film stage that you just.
Speaker 7 (46:24):
Your like you know, within your own your own being,
so you know, being in the same businesses. You know,
a lot of times when I would get a roll,
they would say, oh did you get it because of
your sister or did you get you.
Speaker 6 (46:37):
Know, so.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I don't know what. I don't know what that feels like.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
But yeah, paving your own your own room.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Oliver just hasn't gotten the roles.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
What I mean, I'm killing it.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You're killing it. I know you are. What what what
has been the most like like for both of you?
You know, it's like because the arts are mercurial, you know,
when you're in it, it's just constantly moving and changing.
In one minute, everything is going great. In the next
minute you're like, wait, what happened? What has been like
(47:14):
the most for you? Defining moment in your career where
you've been like, oh, I can't believe I'm here right now?
Speaker 6 (47:24):
One thing? Let me let me take this Nashville we did.
Speaker 7 (47:27):
Vanessa was nominated three times for Willelmine on Ugly Betty
for at three three Ammis and I got to be
on her show playing her doppelganger. So if you're gonna
have someone to do drag and be her. The fact
that we that we got to act together. Maybe did
(47:49):
it once before or twice before, but to be able
to do in scenes and work together on that show
that was that was one of the things for me
that was really really special.
Speaker 6 (48:00):
But yeah together, Mom loved that.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Yeah, yeah, Kate and I haven't done that yet. I
think she's a little nervous.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
What about you, Vanessa?
Speaker 5 (48:15):
Probably the opening night of on Broadway starring and Kissing
The Spider Woman in nineteen ninety four. I had all
my family and the audience and my kids and my
fellow castmates from you know, college and high school, and
knowing that you're a New York kid taking the train
(48:37):
in to see a Broadway show, and I always in
my high school yearbook it says I'll see you on Broadway.
So the fact that I was like, okay, I had
a gigantic detour. But starring on Broadway, I'm taking over
from the legendary Cheeta Rivera, who I adored everything she
ever did, and you know, she welcomed me, and I
still have the stationery that she wrote said welcome to
(48:58):
the Web, and.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
So that legend to pass on, like here is here's
a great show. You've got it in great hands. Fly.
That was incredible.
Speaker 6 (49:10):
And by the way, her birth announcement says here she
is Miss America.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
No, that was the trippiest thing ever stuck sixty three. Yeah.
Back then they used to do like yeah, and it
was a baby carriage and says here she is Miss America.
Speaker 6 (49:24):
That's weird.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Oh my god, that's so weird.
Speaker 8 (49:27):
Later, all the talking about how it affected me, the
stuff from my senior picture on, from my senior picture,
from my you have a picture in high school I
was I was a really tiny kid.
Speaker 6 (49:42):
I put on her down that she won Miss America,
and I posed in it like this and they wouldn't
let they wouldn't let me.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Use it's amazing, amazing.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
All right.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Before we go.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Before we go, we do thing with each other, which
is a two part question for each sibling, which is,
if there was one thing that you could take kind
of alleviate from your sibling to make you think that
would make their life just a little bit smooth, a
little bit better, what would that be? And then the
(50:19):
second part of that question is is what is the
thing that you would love to emulate more of that
your sibling has.
Speaker 4 (50:29):
I would want to alleviate from your life.
Speaker 5 (50:35):
The fear of moving on, because I know you're a
big dreamer, and I know that you've got you can
be happy wherever you end up. And I know that
it's scary to move and sell something, you sell your
house or move on, and I know that's.
Speaker 4 (50:51):
It's scary for anybody.
Speaker 5 (50:52):
So I want to alleviate the fear of moving on
to something spectacular and new, love that.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
I can, And then what about emulate Vanessa.
Speaker 5 (51:06):
I would want to emulate his Chris is very gregarious.
He talks to everybody. He knows everyone's first name. He
gives chocolates to when he's checking into a hotel, the
stack when he's on the airplane, the hostess. Everybody loves Chris.
He does magic tricks everywhere he goes, so he always
has an audience. Yeah, so I would love And my
(51:29):
mother said he was the fun one. I was the
serious one.
Speaker 4 (51:31):
He's I would have to be more fun like Chris.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, sounds like me.
Speaker 6 (51:41):
I would love to if she could have.
Speaker 7 (51:47):
Her own Broadway show that was made just for her,
like that was Taylor made to her where she could.
She's so fucking good at what she does, and to
have something that's originated just for her. That's I would
(52:08):
love her to have that, that moment where she chooses
to be able to do whatever she wants to do
whenever she wants to do it and be showcased for it.
Speaker 6 (52:17):
I would love love her that to have that uh
and uh, I mean like she I'm telling you, this
woman's so resilient.
Speaker 7 (52:28):
Her resiliency and her r you know how she works
so hard at at what she does and everybody, you know,
talking to other people in her cast and other people
that talk to her. She's such such a great example
for being a number one on the call sheet type
person that has to be well worked just as hard
(52:51):
as the person in the back.
Speaker 6 (52:54):
But she she uh, she gives such a great example
of being.
Speaker 7 (53:01):
Number one and making sure that everyone else is involved
and everyone else feels included.
Speaker 6 (53:07):
It's it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 7 (53:08):
So also her resiliency, just from all she's gone through
into where she and where she's brought herself to is pretty.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Incredible, beautiful. Well, thank you guys.
Speaker 6 (53:21):
You gotta go
Speaker 1 (53:24):
An have a great show, Chris, it was so nice.
Hi am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
What it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling railvalry.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
No, no, sibling RAI hopeful you don't do that with
your mouth.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Sibling revelry.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Sometimes of snow co found. Sometimes the sound goes wrong.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Here you go and.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
When you the chance, he can't.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
He can't help himself.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Less because nineteen ninety one, that song was not in
Case you Need, in Case you Forgot, Vanessa. It was
nineteen ninety one, and it was much a It's one
of those memories you know when you hear a song
and it takes you right back to where you were
in your life and what you were going through and
what you were feeling. That song does that for me.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
So yeah, that's like one of those core memory songs,
right it does.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, yeah, it's that. And then we built this city
on rock and roll. Those two.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Oh hi guys, welcome. Hey, it's nice to see. Where
is everybody, Vanessa. You're in London, right.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
I'm in London. I got a show tonight. I yeah,
so I'm doing devil Re's product or across the street at.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
The Dominion Theater. Oh fine, Yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
How's that going? Are you enjoying every second?
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (01:48):
I mean we've been doing it since pretty much like
almost entire year. We did the workshop last January for
two weeks, and then we came back and started rehearsals
in London May June. Then we went to Fun doing
through August, and then came back in September. So we've
been running here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
For Wow, so you're ready for You're ready for Mutation.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
And then his theater something that you've done for a
long long time.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Yeah, that was a I mean I major to musical
theater in college. Then first I've done off Broadway in
that first Broadway show was nineteen ninety four, so that's
already Jesus Wow. Thirty one years ago did Kiss the
Spider Woman. I've worked with Sisley Tyson and Tripped a
bantiful I did Into the Woods with Sondheim and Find
(02:34):
of done After Midnight.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I just did Potus two years ago with Leo Delaria
and Julie White and.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Wow, So you're a real actor. Yeah, Kate just does
rom coms and Netflix shows, and I pretty much sticked
Hallmark and Fox.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Chris, Where are you Are you in La?
Speaker 6 (03:01):
I'm in La.
Speaker 7 (03:01):
Yeah, I'm in La right now. That's the moment. I'm
usually I'm going all over the place. I'm traveling a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So are you.
Speaker 6 (03:08):
Yeah, I'm fifty two countries now, WHOA I like to
get around?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
What are you just for fun? Are you doing this
for work?
Speaker 6 (03:17):
Just for fun? Good for you? Don't work?
Speaker 7 (03:19):
I mean I shot a movie in Bulgaria, which is interesting,
and shot some stuff on other countries. But yeah, I'd
just like to see different. Like the more I see
other countries and other places, the more it gives your
perspective on your own place, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (03:35):
Without it like people are people everywhere all across the world.
You know, people are crying, laughing, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, So I had a trip like that actually with
my mom. I was nineteen years old and I just
quit college because I didn't want to do that anymore.
And she took me to She took me to India
and I was there for three weeks and experiencing sort
of an entirely different civilization in my mind. And I
came back with me this isn't realistically, your life isn't changed,
(04:04):
but it does sort of shift your perspective.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
And Allie Ollie was like the scene in White Lotus
when she was sitting down and she was like, I
don't know, but I.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Just that that was so fun.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I just really like traditioning and yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It was incredible and the best thing I took from it,
the most important thing, was that you know, you you
think you're entering a world of extreme poverty, and of
course you are at times, but the joy that a
lot of these people had with nothing was just so
incredible to see. And that was the perspective shift. It
was like, wow, you are there's so much happy and
(04:45):
smiling and laughing. And then of course a saw dude
chased me down to the Ganges and wanted to kill
me because I filmed. I filmed him with a camera,
not understanding that. You know, the thought I was, I
don't know what was happening, and and this old Sadu
literally was screaming after me, and I ran down to
the Ganges and var Nasi.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I would give it anything, I would get anything. Do
you have seen that, Chris? You just gave me an
idea that what an amazing thing to know how many
countries you've seen? I now I want to go through
and kind of think about because I love to travel
so much, and I've never really thought about it like that,
(05:28):
like how many countries have I seen? And you just
think that there was such a short time on this earth.
There's so many places to see.
Speaker 7 (05:36):
Even when you say something and like I was in
saying thirty six years ago and it's completely changed, you
go through it again, and so you can never really
get you know, you need a sense of some countries
and stuff.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
But like I've been back to Italy. I love Italy.
Speaker 7 (05:51):
I've been going back, you know, two three times a
year in the last last two years.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
So I really want to move there. That's like.
Speaker 7 (05:58):
And it's nice to have vanessas base in London, so
now I can I can go from there, which is good.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
You studied there your junior year abroad, were at Georgetown,
so that she gave you your Italian flavor. They lived
in the former Rockefeller estate looking over Florence and Pisa.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Like in college, how.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Did you how did you score that pad?
Speaker 6 (06:24):
Georgetown?
Speaker 7 (06:25):
My university owns the villa, so we had twelve students
there in this beautiful it just overlooks the the Florence.
And then I remember the first time I walked into
the Villa of like ten in the morning, nine in
the morning, and there was just a miss over all
of Florence and you could just see the dome, the Duomo.
And I was like, Oh, this.
Speaker 6 (06:44):
Is why the Renaissance ap in here, because that looks
like a painting. Yeah, you know, so I'm obsessed with Italy.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Wow, we're Italian. We're half Italian. And when I remember
I like went to Sicily for the first time and
I was like because we're Sicilian, and I was like,
everything functions better here. My skin, my hair, my life,
my personality. I belong in Italy and I'm with you.
(07:14):
I would love to move to Italy. I would love
to or at least spend a lot of my year
in Italy. It's like my one of my.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
You did the ancestry, we did the ancestor Dana. So
I'm twelve percent suppose Italian.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
What what is your hair? What is everything? What's your
is it?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It must be?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
It goes, It's it's pretty complicated. I'll have to pull
it up. Chris you can mark time while I'm doing this.
But yeah, I mean that's the two things. When you
said that your trip to India changed your life.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
When I went to Ghana a couple of years ago,
that was life changing because I got a chance to
not only go into the slave trade museum of castle,
but we do this thing called the Last Bath, and
the local chief came up to are the women that
were traveling with me and gave us like a laurel
of fresh leaves and and we all had bowls with
(08:07):
our Ghanaian names. Mine was Ajua, which means born on Monday.
And we took our bowls down barefoot down the path
where they used to bring the slaves chain for the
last bath before mm hm hip.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
So it was trippy.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Was that emotional?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Just you're sitting in the shill, go into the water
and you're holding the bowl and it gives you some
spirits and he's like just you know, talk to your ancestors,
and it was just like, thank you for making the
trip to make my life possible. If you didn't survive,
I wouldn't be on the other side.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
So it was and it was it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean, did you feel did you feel a certain
energy like when you're you know what I mean, Like
that's just profound, deep energy.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
It seem exactly do you know IgE of what our
family is.
Speaker 7 (08:57):
Yeah, mine is different from obviously her twelve percent, Nigerian
twelve percent, Southern Italy eleven percent, Gone on Ivory Coast
ten percent, benin Togo ten percent, Scottish eight percent, Denmark
four percent, Central West Africa four percent, England three percent,
Senegal three percent, Molly three percent, your Yoruba land and
(09:19):
bent To People's three percent, Spain two percent, Cameroon two percent,
ban To two percent, Philippines, Nigerian woodlands one percent, another like.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Iceland one percent, France, Wales. So it's like very so
you're on a mix. Wow for Muths. We're really MutS.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
And both of our parents have brown eyes as well,
so there's successive traits on both sides.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
The grandfather had but our grandfather had blue eyes.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
Are all of my father's siblings, you know, our aunts
and uncle. So it's you know, it's the mixt percent English.
You know, so he was what were you English? So
it all yeah stuff, but.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Our American history.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I just pulled I remember this. I'm I'm to
two and a half percent North African. Oh, I feel
I feel pretty solid about My brother.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Riders to two point six percent North African, and he's, oh,
he's one one percent for them, and then he's actually
two point six uh percent West African.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Right, Yeah, I'm one point three percent Iranian. Wow, I
just knew it. I could have guessed it. I could
have guessed all that.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Yeah, when you we're actually pretty we're kind of we've
got to we're mutts too, but but our biggest thing
is is Sicilian and then everything else. We're all over
East Asian, North African, Middle East. So from DNA to
(11:12):
like family background, where were you both, Where were you born?
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 7 (11:18):
So we're from Westchester, New York, a small hamlet called
Millwood in the town of Newcastle, which is about forty
five minutes outside the city. So it's not upstate. I
don't consider it upstate. Albany upstate. So we had close
proximity to New York City. Our parents took us to
Broadway shows, the museums, to all kinds of events in
(11:40):
the city.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
And I did live in the Bronx for years, so
I've got Bronx cred East.
Speaker 7 (11:50):
We were one of the first black families in our town,
so we were the yeah, and when I graduated, there
was twenty black kids that of twelve hundred, But we
didn't really know any better, just because you know, that's
all I knew, all we knew.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
So we were a parent.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
But your parents decided to settle in that town.
Speaker 7 (12:12):
There were both music teachers, elementary school music teachers, and
my dad supposedly took my where my mom was working
and where my dad was working and made a giant
circle around the map and they just.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
Started looking for a place and to live.
Speaker 7 (12:24):
We found this really great, great neighborhood and we were
there for almost fifty years.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
What what is your age difference?
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Four years?
Speaker 6 (12:33):
Happy?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
And are you full siblings?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
God, okay? So and there are any other siblings?
Speaker 6 (12:42):
Nope, they could only handle two of us.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So when you were so, you were born, your mom
and music teachers. Were you immersed in music as children completely?
Speaker 5 (12:54):
Both our parents taught elementary music teachers. My mother was
the voice teacher in Austin. My dad was the instrumental
in Elmsford. So there was there was like lessons going
on all the time. In our house, like my mom
would be downstairs teaching somebody piano. My dad would be
upstairs on the clarinet, trombone, trumpet, so constant music all
(13:17):
the time, people coming in out of the house. And
then of course they made us play. So I played.
Speaker 7 (13:22):
Were required through high school to play an instruments and supposedly,
you know, and they chose. They chose the most difficult instruments,
like Vanessa playing the French horn, which is like the hardest.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Uh wow uh.
Speaker 7 (13:37):
And I played the obo, which was like Mason, we chose,
I chose the I'm.
Speaker 6 (13:42):
Like I chose.
Speaker 7 (13:47):
The philosophy was if you learn something at the highest
level of the hardest one, anything else after that will
be easier to play.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
You're like, dad, Dad, what, what's an instrument that all
the girls are going to like?
Speaker 6 (13:58):
He's like the obo?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Son.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So, so your dad was a horn player. Did he
play any other inters, piano, guitar, anything like that or
was he just mostly baxophone slup you know when he
was yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome and have music.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Did they play professionally before they were teachers? Is this
something that they it was just sort of a passion.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Well, my mom definitely played piano and Oregon going through
up the church and and all kinds of groups and
then when and then growing up she used to play
at church for holidays and weddings and all that kind
of stuff. So very great at the piano. And dad
played in the Army arm band. Yeah, so he was
(14:49):
he was in Korea for two years, uh, playing in
the army band.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
And he used to do.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Parades and stuff with his his students. So we would
always be dragged to the Memorial Day parade to watch
his class go.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And then we ended up you know, there was a
marketing man in my high school.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
So they're also.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
Part of a choral group, a baroque choral group that
every Sunday night we'd have to go and then rehearsed
and we you know, so we were co constantly.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Surrounding music that's intense. Baroque is a very yeah, very
intense music, like right, it's all the yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Balk and handle and yeah, lots of pews, lots of
church going in the concerts.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yes, wow you so you guys like had no choice.
It was it was like it was just ingrained in you. Chris,
do you still do do you still have any connection
to music. Do you play or do you sing?
Speaker 7 (15:48):
Interestingly interestingly enough, I did a small little ditty of
when I was like twenty two years old. I found
these cassettes that I had written like thirty years thirty
six years ago, that I wrote these silly songs. And
Vanessa's daughter, my niece, lion Babe, her and her partner.
(16:09):
They're a very popular group. They did Coachella a couple
of years ago. And I found this this tape that
I did thirty six years ago, and I was like, oh,
this is pretty good, and so I gave it to
them and they're like, oh, of course this is good,
and they just remade it. No, and they've been playing
in the club. So that's my my latest year. So
(16:30):
and Lucas is a DJ, so he's been playing playing
the song in the club and they.
Speaker 6 (16:35):
Said he's getting a response.
Speaker 7 (16:37):
Oh that's my like recent connection to music.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
But it's the name of the song.
Speaker 6 (16:42):
It's called physical Physical.
Speaker 7 (16:44):
It's a really silly well it's yeah, it's a nice
little dance too, and it's fun.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
It's fun.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
That's so fun.
Speaker 6 (16:51):
But I play, I mean I played the saxophone like
once a year.
Speaker 7 (16:55):
Just take it out just to try to play something,
and you gotta really, you gotta gotta really keep up
with it, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Oh, I'm sure I have a female saxophonist in my
Her name is Rachel Maser. She's amazing. And I love
the saxophone. It's like, uh, I feel like it's one
of those instruments that when you hear it, when it's
done right, especially in recording, that it just like it's
(17:22):
it's just one of those instruments that just ends up
standing out, Like the great saxophone solos, you know, you
just never forget them.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
Yeah, much sexier than THEO.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
No, I know, but that's what I'm about to say.
The saxophone can also bring back memories of like soft
core on cinemax, you know, like looking at the Yeah,
like some like hazy, sort of guzy red shoe diaries. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
So, Vanessa, when you were were you a good big
sister or did you guys have like a really good
relationship or was it challenging it?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, I was about to ask that because four years
apart is an interesting gap.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
Yeah, we were never in school at the same time,
except elementary school maybe when I was in fifth grade
and you were in first, but besides that, we were
always in different schools, so you know, he was the
annoying tattle tale until he got to college and then
we ended up getting much closer.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
And she was always four years had just to leave
a trail blaze for me to go, Oh what do I.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Have to se like, now what I have to step in? Oh?
Your sister did this, and your sister did this, and
your sister I'm like, okay.
Speaker 7 (18:32):
So she had already blazed through middle when she was
middle school president.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
Then I had to become middle school president.
Speaker 7 (18:39):
And then she went to do all this theater and
all these accolades in high school and I came in.
Then I was like, okay, well she won Miss America,
and now do I have to start lifting weights.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
At What were you when.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
You won Miss America? Vanessa went twenty, So were you
doing pageants in high school?
Speaker 4 (18:59):
No?
Speaker 3 (18:59):
No.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
I was at Syracuse majoring in musical theater, and the
local board members would go and look at who's in
the shows, and they kept asking me, And I was
supposed to do Serra no de bergerac at Syracuse Stage.
I got cast in it, which would have got me
equity points, and the show got canceled and I had
April free, and I said called my mom and I
(19:21):
was like, I think I should do this thing. She's like,
is there scholarship money? Oh yes, I well, then do it.
So my parents didn't even come.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Up for it.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
One, won it in April, went to State's July, won that,
and went to Miss America September one the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
So within six.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Months I was, oh my god, that was crazy to.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
London from my junior year abroad and obviously myke couldn't
make it, but my roommate was ready and didn't make
it to London. But now I'm here forty years later.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You know, that's amazing. Well, my wife was Miss teen Massachusetts.
I don't wan, don't want to brag, but you know,
and then she she was Runner Up USA, so you know,
oh yeah, wait she was.
Speaker 6 (20:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I didn't know this.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Oh yeah, oh.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, Aran was Miss runner Up Team USA.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah. It was one of the reasons why I almost
didn't marry her.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
She do we have this footage?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Oh yeah, pictures and oh it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Oh. I am so fascinated by the pageant world because
I remember being little when when we were young, when
I was little. It was like I never missed it.
It was like, I mean, I watched it every single
time from you know, miss Universe, Miss Usa. I was
obsessed with it.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I want to go back real quick because a four
year spread, so growing up, basically it was passing ships
kind of. He was the annoying little brother. Were you
sort of on her coattails meeting like you wanted recognition,
you wanted her to recognize or do you okay with
sort of the power dynamic Chris.
Speaker 7 (21:02):
Well, it was it was four years was just enough
where she was like a little bit of a rebel.
Speaker 6 (21:09):
So I was trying to be the good boy, you know,
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I want to get into that.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
She got a lot more trouble than I did.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Really, but you were like class president, you were at this,
you were at that, right, I mean, so you had
a little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Huh, what kind of trouble did you get into me?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Everything? Good? Lord?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
I was I thought you were talking when I was
burning things down, like my my reputation. You know, if
my parents said you're not allowed to go, I would
sneak out and go and then just think you know,
I was grounded.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Okay, guess what I'm still going to go out. I'm
still going to take the heat.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
And so you know, hitch I hitch hike. I got
my stereo taken away. I I had a boyfriend and
we came in late and grounded it yet again.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
I couldn't go to the prom because I was grounded.
Always in trouble.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
But the.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
Well, yeah, smoke pot. In the high school, we had
a greenhouse. My dad my parents were avid gardeners. My
dad built a greenhouse downstairs. And uh, I had a
friend over and we were smoking in the greenhouse and
I dumped the bowl in the.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
To get rid of it in the in the dirt.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
And funds into my room like months later, like I
dare you?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
You planted pot?
Speaker 5 (22:28):
And I was, and I honestly did not know what
because I didn't remember and I knew it wasn't.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Stupid enough to actually he was like, you planted it?
Speaker 5 (22:38):
And I really And I was like I don't. Don't
you talking about? And so again got ground You're like.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
And then my father became the best pot and then
he started planting.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Dumped you dumped the bowl out and there was seeds
in the bowl and it grew. This is back when
this is back when our.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Seeds in Oliver decided one time to try to to
He tried to plant to be have a little green
thumb plants and marijuana plants up in the hills.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah. Yeah, a few weed stories. I mean the first
time I ever planted weed, they grew like one hundred
feet tall. Didn't know what I was doing, you know,
there was no trimming, there was no nothing. And then
we see like a bug on it. I'm like, oh,
we got a pesticide it and they turned like pink.
And then we tried it, and then we dried out
all the leaves, stripped the leaves, and then crushed the
(23:37):
leaves up, not even understanding that the buds is what
it actually gets you high. We rolled these pesto joints
and we were giving them around and people were coughing
and throwing up and it was a disaster. But everyone
was so young that they were like, oh that's good shit,
Like I can't even coughing this much. This is amazing.
They're not getting high, they're just going to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Oh my god. So you were a trouble maker. I
like Mess.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
I like that.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
That's your family nicknamed Mess. Yeah, my dad actually became
famous because now I've told this story so many times.
At one time I got in trouble and he said, well,
you don't deserve and I slammed the door after getting
into a fight with my parents or my mom or something,
and he came went to the garage, came up, got
his electric screwdriver and took my door off the hinges
(24:39):
and put in the garage.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Get okay, great, move that door again.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
And I didn't have promises for like at least two months.
Literally no privacy in my room.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (24:54):
I should have known better. And then my dog got
taken off after I slammed it. So try to put it.
I started from the sheet up and like, no, you
don't deserve privacy.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah. Wow, Well, not to get all psychological, but where
do you think that rebelliousness came from? You know what
I mean? Do you think you were just born with
that sort of piston vinegar? Or was there a reason
for it? You know?
Speaker 6 (25:20):
Well?
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I I think.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
I mean, my mother and I butted heads a lot,
and the more I got to kill her, and I
knew that she was a troublemaker and an upstart and
very vocal, and so that fire in my belly certainly
was from her.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, what's your sign?
Speaker 5 (25:38):
I'm I am piscy uh sagittarian moon and a cancer
rising Venus isn't Aquarius mars Is and leoh.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I would have thought you were a fire sign.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
Well, the I think the the satritage moon of adventure
or whatever, and and uh yeah. But also I'm such
a mother and such a come let me fix it.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Okay everybody, So that's I'm a cancer rising too.
Speaker 6 (26:09):
Okay, hmm, double scorpio, because.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Everybody you ever meet that's in decides is like, oh.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I have a double clue.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I did my thing, and I was like, I know
I'm a virgo, but like I'm born in a full moon,
I'm something rising. I don't know, pale moon. I'm pale
moon the way I want to go back. So did
you witness Did you think you saw who your mother
was and be able to witness that and you took
(26:45):
that on or found that is to be a part
of you.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Yeah, I think I matched her energy. She came from Buffalo,
she had, you know, like an urban always achiever and
so much expectation, and she wanted to get out of
there on the first thing smoke and as soon as
she got went to college and married my dad that
summer and got out. So, you know, she came from the.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Streets of Buffalo, which is still urban.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
But was from Long Island, grew up in Oyster Bay,
you know, so you know, picked beans and farm kind
of that really relaxed, chill environment, big family, very very affectionate.
So it was a thank god we had our dad
to be the the xicalle counter balance because my mom
(27:33):
you know, didn't give physical touch. Really, it's really hard
for her to be loving. And I remember my dad
read to us every night, and I remember having talk
with my Dad's like why can't mom love me? Why
can't And he would say, it's been really tough for her.
Mom have tough childhood. So that was that was our balance.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Thank god.
Speaker 7 (27:53):
She was not a morning person, was at least a
morning person, so there was a great counterbalance between the
two of them.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
More she like didn't trust me and was always kind
of putting limitations on me. I broke out of it,
so we were head to head for a long time.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
You know, It's interesting and there's a reason for this
sort of line of questioning because you know, I have kids.
Kate has kids and they're are My oldest is seventeen.
You're getting to the ages now where you know, rebellion
is natural and it's real. And then as far as
parenting goes, i'm I'm not a hypocrisy is my biggest
(28:34):
pet peeve. I don't understand it essentially, And when I
look back on my childhood, Arou'm fifteen, sixteen, seventeen and
the things that I did, And then now I'm trying
to parent. Do you give your children? Or how come
your mom didn't understand who she was and use that,
you know, as far as now raising you meaning, oh wait,
(28:57):
this is who I was? How am I now? Why
am I getting on these kids so hardcore?
Speaker 6 (29:03):
You know?
Speaker 5 (29:05):
I think my dad gave me the grace to be free,
and then my mother would try to counteract that, so
I think, and I also think my mother wanted to
protect me because you know, I think she saw the
lens that, oh my god, she's not gullible because my
dad trusted everybody, and she didn't.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Want that that I have for my dad to affect me.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
And of course I got burned because you know, obviously
you know that you know I resigned from Miss America
after these photos came out, and that was me trusting
a local photographer who I didn't have a release from
and me being open and like, oh, I trust them,
and she could see that that was a part of
me that was like my dad. So it was always
trying to like, you know, kind of hone and cut
(29:51):
that instinct down that I had for trusting. So I
think she was try maybe and I.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Think to like, you know, so, especially for girls and
their moms, there is that time. I think boys do
the same thing, but it's a little bit different, like
we I was reading this somewhere I thought it was
really interesting. But we have to individuate from our mothers.
And the more your mom identifies with you, the more
you push against it. It's like, you know, and it's
(30:21):
like you aren't me, I'm not you. Let me. I
need to go be myself, my own person. That happens
in your teenage years, like fifteen sixteen with girls sometimes fourteen,
and it's really intense, I think, much more intense than
it is for the boys and their fathers.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
And the more.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Your mom tries to hold on, I think, or any
mother tries to hold on really tight, you're it's like
you're just gonna be You're in for it, Like you
kind of gotta let your girls go and make their mistakes,
you know, and be there for them when they make
the mistake, you know. And it's such a hard thing
(31:05):
because you know, it's like like they say that there
was this great research done that if your kids aren't
doing that, then they're not following like the actual nature
of how we're supposed to be growing and individuating. Because
you want your kids to push you away. That's sort
of like what we're meant to do to survive.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
You know, how did you how do you with your children,
you know, watching them grow up and go through their
sort of bellious nature if they had one, how did
how are you different in the way that you handled that,
you know from your mother?
Speaker 6 (31:42):
Maybe?
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Yeah, I think my mom was so concerned about what
everybody was going to think about her and us as
a family.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
So we had to keep it up here the status
he here.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
Or keep it you know, and got it every time
there was some scandal or any kind of you know,
you know, not a perfect.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Picture that she'd come and attack my kids.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
I mean, you know, I've got four or three from
my first husband and second from Rick Fox, who you know,
so has two parents that are in.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
The in the media, you know.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
So we wanted to make sure that she had the
freedom to make mistakes and we'd be there to support her.
Who cares if everybody else don't read any comments. So
it was much more. We weren't trying to isolate her,
but it was like, who cares, We'll handle it, you know,
it's not that big of a deal, and don't try
to even replicate anything that we've done.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
My eldest kind of felt, I mean, she went.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
To a different school because all my kids actually moved
back to my hometown, so they all went to my school.
So she had a hard time kind of being she
was the first and trying to being her own, her
own entity. So she had up leaving school and going
to Sacred Heart for a couple of years, and she
went to boarding school just so she could have her
own identity and nobody knew who she was, but the
other kids were were fine.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, and then Chris, what about you, I mean, how
is it a different experience? Because Kate and I have
been doing this for years now, and it's so interesting
with age dynamic and parents and perception, and you know,
Vanessa might have one idea of how her parents were
and then you might have another. And we've seen that
that across all siblings.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
You know.
Speaker 7 (33:21):
Yeah, I think well, since we were you know, exactly
four years apart, the it was hard to see such
a such a trailblaze that she was. She was blaming
through to try to figure out what my.
Speaker 6 (33:36):
Legacy was going to be. Mm hmm.
Speaker 7 (33:38):
So I went to I was actually gonna be I
wanted to be a sports broadcaster. So I wanted to
go to the best school in the country, which was Syracuse,
which is New House School, which is you know, I
think the Gumbles went there, Brian A, Bob Constants anyway,
and I did not go specifically because I couldn't do
another four years of being her brother and not having
(34:00):
my own identity. So I went a complete different direction.
I went to Georgetown and just got a liberal arts degree,
and I was going to go to law school and
I was going to be a lawyer, and uh, you know,
took the alsats and was going to defer year to
go to Georgetown Law School. And I actually two weeks
after I graduated from Georgetown, I drove out, drove out
to LA and I stayed with stay with her, and
(34:23):
uh I did I knew? I I mean, I'm a performer.
I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer. I
was in then I was like, nigg will be an
entertainment lawyer.
Speaker 6 (34:31):
That wasn't That wasn't good.
Speaker 7 (34:32):
So I was doing the in the recognistry, doing record
industry stuff at at Vanessa's label and with the president
and just trying to figure out what I want to do.
And then I did a play when I was like
twenty five because every kept going, well, when are you
going to get to performing? When are you gonna get
to acting? Because all my friends are lawyers, bankers, businessmen.
(34:54):
So I figured, you know, that's what I was going
to be as well. And there's no stage for how
to be I'm an actor. You just have to just
do it and get out there and put yourself. But
so I looked at it as my grad school and
at twenty five, I did a show and they're like, well,
when are you going to start doing this? So then
I started, uh, you know, because uh it was I
(35:16):
told myself in complete debt and credit card debt because
that was my grad school, so that's how I was looking
in And then I got a TVs.
Speaker 6 (35:24):
I did some small things.
Speaker 7 (35:25):
We did Fresh Prints of bel Air together and there's
some small things here and there, and then I got
a TV show.
Speaker 6 (35:31):
On the on the WB called The Hype.
Speaker 7 (35:33):
It was a sketch comedy show because I do a
lot of characters and that kind of stuff. I got
my cheekiness from my mom was really sharp and funny
and uh so they knocked out all my debt and
then after that I got Curtin Enthusiasm and Dodgeball and
then from there it.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Was just that's right. I started on w B. That's
how I got my first TV show, My Guy to
Becoming a rock Star a million years ago.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Oliver actually played as the song the other day and
we're like, this is correct.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Excited to record? Wait, hold on, I want to go
real quick. Going back, So the trailblazing of of of Vanessa. Yeah,
talk about sort of having to or the pressure of,
or the expectations that you might have put on yourself
to sort of follow in the footsteps of Was there
(36:23):
pain or struggle there or envy or fuck you know
what I mean?
Speaker 6 (36:29):
It was tough.
Speaker 7 (36:29):
Well, I knew she was gonna win Miss America. When
I was watching it, I'm like, she's gonna win. Watch
gonna win. But I had a completely confidence and me,
she's gonna do it. So it was hard for me
to even there was no small sibling robbery. Uh you
know before that, once you did that, I was trying
to figure out, well, what am I gonna where's my
my port uh portionated?
Speaker 6 (36:51):
And since remember you have only one phone, I think
in the in the in the early eighties, every phone call,
I never got a phone call.
Speaker 7 (37:00):
I was so it was you know, I was trying
to struggle to get my own identity. So that's also
why I went to Georgetown to have a whole different
experience in college. And uh uh so then when she
started what she was the even watching her going through
all her trial and tribulations, I was in college when
(37:22):
all this stuff went down. But you know, as a family,
we've always learned to be fiercely protected of each other,
regardless of if if there's rivalry or is you know,
you're loyal to your family. And I got in the fight.
It's when I was in in in and did Yeah,
I got into a couple of fights.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Just people talking shit or whatever.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Exactly exactly, Vanessa, what did that time?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
What did that feel like for you at the time?
Did it feel so like was it just an incredibly
violating experience?
Speaker 5 (38:04):
It was so huge that by the end it was
like who are they talking about? I mean when every
news station everyone is like jumping on a plane to
get it. I mean I had news crews waiting for
me all over, camped out in front of my house.
I had to hide at my lawyer's house down the street,
so no one was It was insane because again there
(38:27):
was only a few, you know, a few network shows,
and so it was nuts. And then watching c make
comments about John Television, it was so big. It's like
they don't even know who I am, you know, So
it was enormous.
Speaker 7 (38:43):
Like white people did not like the fact that she
was the first blackness America. And then there's some black
people that didn't say she wasn't black enough. So you
could never win on you know, basically, you can't win.
So you just have to take it and just let
it go through you and and uh and persevere through it.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
She did.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah, It's like it's like a roller coaster. Ride you
never wanted to be asked to be on.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
You're like, wait a.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Minute, yeah, you're just it's like you're yeah, yeah, and
in negates any kind of intellectual talents that you had.
So all the years, all the shows that had been
previously anything, uh, you know, any interview that I had,
it did matter because I was a scandalized beauty queen
and to break down the judgment was so so severe
(39:30):
it took me years, it did.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
I was about to say, how do you deal with
something like that? Because at the end of the day,
obviously intellectually we know that fuck these people. They don't
know what the fuck they're talking about. They can say
what they want, but I know who I am, so
fuck them, all right. It's much easier said than done.
So how did you.
Speaker 6 (39:53):
Remember she was? She was funny, full grown rush woman,
young girl.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, so you let that seep into you And then
how did you sort of deal with it? And how
were you able to sort of get through it and
finally be like you know what?
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Yeah, Just so twenty one is when it all. I
only had like a month left of appearances, so I
had done ten months of Miss America.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
So so the.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
I think I definitely threw myself into I'm going to
prove to everybody, so I kind of committed to just
you wait and see kind of attitude. And then I
got harsh lessons that you know, talent doesn't matter, You're
still going to be judged and you're still going to
I got crazy, crazy offers from you know, scripts that
(40:44):
were horrible, and then taking meetings with people that I
knew I wasn't going to get it, but they just
wanted to say, Oh, I took the meeting with the
former Miss America. So I that whole Hollywood, you know,
you know, all the dinner parties that people go to
and all that shatter that everybody's talking.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Yeah, So I was the butt of all those jokes
for years. But it always my mother was.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
She still she still had resentments of remembered comedians who
had said something about them, like in their opening blogue,
and she's like, I don't like I don't like Selen.
Speaker 7 (41:17):
My mother remember, remembered all of everything.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I think there are certain women like what you were
sort of put through, like put through the ringer in
a time when people found those things to be acceptable,
which wouldn't be acceptable right now. But like Saint God,
you had that fire spirit that could get you through it,
because I think that, you know, sometimes I look at
(41:40):
these young girls and it's a very different time than then,
like you know, you had. I think you like the intensity,
it's to wish you experience what that that kind of
you know, the microscope and all of the judgment and
all of the all of the ship being coming at you.
I feel like young girls feel that every day on
(42:04):
social media, like they have this sense of like, you know, uh,
they can be shamed so quickly, and they could be
gossiped about and one little thing goes it's everything's so
exposed now. But not everybody has that fire, that that
spirit that can really like push them through it. And
I think when women and young girls here, like when
(42:27):
you went through something like that and actually hear it,
I think it's so important for young girls to hear
how you can get through the hardest of those kinds
of moments because it's still happening on a on a
smaller scale, but like right in the right in here,
you know, and and you you had that tenfold you know,
(42:48):
and but somehow you were able to just power through it.
And and then and then have come through with you know,
your talent and success. It's like amazing.
Speaker 5 (42:59):
And social media, as you said, it's immediate, like there's
no like reason, it goes on fire. Something somebody bucks
up and it is on blast worldwide.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, I mean, I guess if there's enter any silver
lining to that. We move so quickly now the pacing
of sort of you know, oh my god, bang, it
burns so hot and then it goes away. It's like
I just ride it out and in a week you'll
be done, whereas back in the day it was not
a week. I mean, it was like months on end.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
But I but I think what we're tapping, like what
what's so interesting is like how does one have that resilience?
Like how do how do you instill?
Speaker 6 (43:37):
I think it's our parents, that's right. Parents are were
were We were a unit.
Speaker 7 (43:43):
We were a family unit where our parents really made
sure that we were well rounded, focused, well read individuals
so we could represent ourselves no matter what. And I
I think the structure of ours, our parts were together
for forty six.
Speaker 6 (44:04):
Years until my dad, my dad passed, so we had
a nice you know base to which to go from
which the you know.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Floor is from but also a great combination of realism
and love too, because even even though my mother wasn't
tremendously affectionate at all, she if anything happened, she was
my biggest cheerleader.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
When I was going through.
Speaker 5 (44:25):
Divorces and stuff, she was like, she deserves a divorce.
Listen to what she's saying. So she always stood up
for me as a woman. And then my dad when
it all came crashing down, and at twenty one years.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Old, and yeah.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
He picked me up and h and we were still
in hiding and stuff, and he said, we were in
the car and he said, well, you really blew it
ness and that's all.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
That's all I said. I said, yeah I did, And
that was it.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
That was that was it.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
That was it. And then it's just like how do.
Speaker 5 (44:53):
We how do we get through this together? So it
was wasn't judgment and how dare you what?
Speaker 4 (44:57):
An idiot? What were you thinking?
Speaker 2 (44:59):
It was like, wow, yeah, you blew it?
Speaker 4 (45:01):
Yeah I did. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
And then from then on, from that point on, did
your dad was your dad able to sort of give
you nuggets of advice or was it just kind of
like maybe you blew it? Now you got to clean
it up type.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Yeah, surrounding us with helpful people. Yeah, they were always
there to support. So having family and friends that believe
there was like a local They did a local parade
in front of my house, you know, saying that, I
mean like our little town. So I had all that
love to support.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah. And then your brother, I mean that's tough for
you too, Chris. I mean I'm not taking any of
the Vest's experience obviously is way gnarlier, but as the
younger brother too, having to deal with that ship. Of course,
you got in fights, you.
Speaker 6 (45:46):
Know, tennis, my friends and members, everybody.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Is watching you gnarly.
Speaker 6 (45:51):
Yeah, it was, it was crazy, It was it was nice.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah, it's crazy. Did you guys have conversations at that point,
you know, where you had heart to heart? So was
it kind of you separated yourself a little bit from
the whole thing.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
I wish you had gotten that.
Speaker 5 (46:05):
I wish you had gone to Syracuse because I was
only there for I never went back.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
So you.
Speaker 7 (46:11):
There, but your but your her legacy is so strong
and so many different things.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
She's been so successful in so many different arenas. You
know from film stage that you just.
Speaker 7 (46:24):
Your like you know, within your own your own being,
so you know, being in the same businesses. You know,
a lot of times when I would get a roll,
they would say, oh did you get it because of
your sister or did you get you.
Speaker 6 (46:37):
Know, so.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I don't know what. I don't know what that feels like.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
But yeah, paving your own your own room.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Oliver just hasn't gotten the roles.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
What I mean, I'm killing it.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You're killing it. I know you are. What what what
has been the most like like for both of you?
You know, it's like because the arts are mercurial, you know,
when you're in it, it's just constantly moving and changing.
In one minute, everything is going great. In the next
minute you're like, wait, what happened? What has been like
(47:14):
the most for you? Defining moment in your career where
you've been like, oh, I can't believe I'm here right now?
Speaker 6 (47:24):
One thing? Let me let me take this Nashville we did.
Speaker 7 (47:27):
Vanessa was nominated three times for Willelmine on Ugly Betty
for at three three Ammis and I got to be
on her show playing her doppelganger. So if you're gonna
have someone to do drag and be her. The fact
that we that we got to act together. Maybe did
(47:49):
it once before or twice before, but to be able
to do in scenes and work together on that show
that was that was one of the things for me
that was really really special.
Speaker 6 (48:00):
But yeah together, Mom loved that.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Yeah, yeah, Kate and I haven't done that yet. I
think she's a little nervous.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
What about you, Vanessa?
Speaker 5 (48:15):
Probably the opening night of on Broadway starring and Kissing
The Spider Woman in nineteen ninety four. I had all
my family and the audience and my kids and my
fellow castmates from you know, college and high school, and
knowing that you're a New York kid taking the train
(48:37):
in to see a Broadway show, and I always in
my high school yearbook it says I'll see you on Broadway.
So the fact that I was like, okay, I had
a gigantic detour. But starring on Broadway, I'm taking over
from the legendary Cheeta Rivera, who I adored everything she
ever did, and you know, she welcomed me, and I
still have the stationery that she wrote said welcome to
(48:58):
the Web, and.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
So that legend to pass on, like here is here's
a great show. You've got it in great hands. Fly.
That was incredible.
Speaker 6 (49:10):
And by the way, her birth announcement says here she
is Miss America.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
No, that was the trippiest thing ever stuck sixty three. Yeah.
Back then they used to do like yeah, and it
was a baby carriage and says here she is Miss America.
Speaker 6 (49:24):
That's weird.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Oh my god, that's so weird.
Speaker 8 (49:27):
Later, all the talking about how it affected me, the
stuff from my senior picture on, from my senior picture,
from my you have a picture in high school I
was I was a really tiny kid.
Speaker 6 (49:42):
I put on her down that she won Miss America,
and I posed in it like this and they wouldn't
let they wouldn't let me.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Use it's amazing, amazing.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
All right.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Before we go.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Before we go, we do thing with each other, which
is a two part question for each sibling, which is,
if there was one thing that you could take kind
of alleviate from your sibling to make you think that
would make their life just a little bit smooth, a
little bit better, what would that be? And then the
(50:19):
second part of that question is is what is the
thing that you would love to emulate more of that
your sibling has.
Speaker 4 (50:29):
I would want to alleviate from your life.
Speaker 5 (50:35):
The fear of moving on, because I know you're a
big dreamer, and I know that you've got you can
be happy wherever you end up. And I know that
it's scary to move and sell something, you sell your
house or move on, and I know that's.
Speaker 4 (50:51):
It's scary for anybody.
Speaker 5 (50:52):
So I want to alleviate the fear of moving on
to something spectacular and new, love that.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
I can, And then what about emulate Vanessa.
Speaker 5 (51:06):
I would want to emulate his Chris is very gregarious.
He talks to everybody. He knows everyone's first name. He
gives chocolates to when he's checking into a hotel, the
stack when he's on the airplane, the hostess. Everybody loves Chris.
He does magic tricks everywhere he goes, so he always
has an audience. Yeah, so I would love And my
(51:29):
mother said he was the fun one. I was the
serious one.
Speaker 4 (51:31):
He's I would have to be more fun like Chris.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, sounds like me.
Speaker 6 (51:41):
I would love to if she could have.
Speaker 7 (51:47):
Her own Broadway show that was made just for her,
like that was Taylor made to her where she could.
She's so fucking good at what she does, and to
have something that's originated just for her. That's I would
(52:08):
love her to have that, that moment where she chooses
to be able to do whatever she wants to do
whenever she wants to do it and be showcased for it.
Speaker 6 (52:17):
I would love love her that to have that uh
and uh, I mean like she I'm telling you, this
woman's so resilient.
Speaker 7 (52:28):
Her resiliency and her r you know how she works
so hard at at what she does and everybody, you know,
talking to other people in her cast and other people
that talk to her. She's such such a great example
for being a number one on the call sheet type
person that has to be well worked just as hard
(52:51):
as the person in the back.
Speaker 6 (52:54):
But she she uh, she gives such a great example
of being.
Speaker 7 (53:01):
Number one and making sure that everyone else is involved
and everyone else feels included.
Speaker 6 (53:07):
It's it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 7 (53:08):
So also her resiliency, just from all she's gone through
into where she and where she's brought herself to is pretty.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Incredible, beautiful. Well, thank you guys.
Speaker 6 (53:21):
You gotta go
Speaker 1 (53:24):
An have a great show, Chris, it was so nice.
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Oliver Hudson
Kate Hudson
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