Authors Uncovered: Jessica Behne & Samuel Zasadny’s Path to Unseen Warrior

Unseen Warrior offers mental health professionals a comprehensive guide to providing clinical services for military personnel and veterans. Drawing on the authors’ more than 50 years of cumulative military service and 35 years of clinical expertise, this book bridges the cultural divide that often exists between military and civilian life. Key insights into values, experiences, and challenges that are important in applying effective therapeutic strategies are presented. With practical tools and a step-by-step field manual, Unseen Warrior empowers you to deliver culturally competent, impactful mental health care to the men and women who have served. Jessica Behne Jessica Behne (Major, USMCR) is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Marine Corps veteran with over thirteen years of service. She holds degrees in Social Work and Marriage and Family Therapy and is pursuing a PhD in Counselor Education and Supervision. Jessica teaches graduate-level counseling courses, supervises clinicians working with military populations, and operates a telehealth practice serving veterans and their families. Her research and clinical work focus on the cognitive effects of military training and trauma. Sam Zasadny Sam Zasadny is a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and psychologist-in-training. A former helicopter pilot and aviation instructor, he served in multiple deployments before transitioning to the U.S. Navy Medical Service Corps to become a Navy psychologist. Sam holds advanced degrees in international policy and psychology and is completing his Doctor of Psychology (PsyD) at Wheaton College. His professional interests center on mental health, resilience, and the intersection of military service and psychological well-being.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
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who they are. Yes, there's multiple guests on today's show.
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hyphen Club. Go read something for your brain. Okay, it's
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more you read, the better you are. Knowledge is power.

(01:46):
So with that said, I've got a couple guests on together.
They have written a book. The book is gonna help
transform ma trans is it transformative? It's gonna help transform
your thought process about helping one another, I think. And
so we're gonna get into that with uh these health
professionals here.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
So Jessica Baanye and.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
I got you, Samuel, I got you, Samuel, Francis, Francis Zadny, Zasney, Zasney.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Right, I got that right right close close, say it
for me.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Sadney, the Sadney, Okay, Samuel Sadney and Jessica Bain Banye Okay. Now,
Jessica is a former United States Marine Corps officer, and
Samuel also former United States Marine Corps officer. So shout
out to the United States Marine Corps, all you devil
dogs out there, raw, okay, kill you know whatever makes

(02:50):
you smile? All right, and I think those things are
what it is. Now I'm gonna read Jessica's bio and
I'm gonna read Samuel's just to give you a little
background into who we're talking to. And forgive me if
I don't know your full acronym letters in this as
I read it, but you can correct me as I go. So,
Jessica Baney Major, United States Marine Corps Reserves. I believe

(03:11):
you're still incorrect.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
I just got out a couple months ago.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, congratulations, ma'am. There's that all right, So, Jessica banye Major,
United States Marine Corps Reserves.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
MA LMFT What is LMFT?

Speaker 4 (03:28):
Real Quick Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist is.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
A graduate of Frostburg State University. She has a bachelor's
in Social work at Texas A and M University, San Antonio,
and MA in Marriage and Family Therapy. She is pursuing
her PhDs in Counselor Education and Supervision at Regent University.
Jessica servitie United States Marine Corps as an active duty
officer from twenty eleven to twenty sixteen and as a
reserve officer twenty sixteen two just a few months ago.

(03:55):
During her service, she supported multiple training exercises, including theater
security cooperation events in the Philippines. She performed key billets
as the Deployment Readiness Coordinator for three d Assault Amphibian
Battalion twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one and the Family
Readiness Officer for first Civil Affairs Group twenty GEZ twenty
twenty four COVID.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
We'll get into that.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Currently, Jessica teaches master level clinical courses at various universities
and supervises Ukrainian clinicians who working with the Ukrainian military.
Her research is focused on the cognitive effects of military
training and war trauma on service members, veterans, and clinicians.
Jessica also continues to provide trauma informed care through her

(04:38):
telehealth practice, Breakthrough Therapy Texas, serving veterans and military families. Now,
let me say that one more time. I believe it's
called Breakthrough Therapy Texas.

Speaker 4 (04:47):
Correct, that's correct. You have to add the Texas. The
name was taken.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
Okay, so you are in charge of that. You have
a lot on your plate. And congratulations for being the
most powerful person in the world. Okay, And yes, you're welcome,
and that's just coming as being who you are.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Now, second, now let me introduce Samuel Francis Zazadny. Samuel
Zzadny is a graduate of the US Naval Academy with
a BS George Washington University MIPP. Hey, what does MIPP
stand for?

Speaker 5 (05:20):
Yes, it's a Master's in International Policy and Practice.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
Okay, and Wheaton College. You have an MA.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
He is currently pursuing a Doctor of Psychology, which is
a side D a PsyD.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Right is that real? Okay?

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Okay, at Wheaton College in Illinois, with an anticipated graduation
of twenty twenty seven. He served in the US Marine
Corps from two thousand and seven to twenty twenty three
as an officer, helicopter pilot, aviation specialist, and weapons school instructor.
He deployed as a pilot to Afghanistan in two thousand
and one, Japan in twenty thirteen, and with a Marine
Expeditionary Unit which I think is called a MEW in

(05:59):
twenty fifteen.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
He transitioned to the.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
US Naval excuse me into the US Navy Medical Service
Corps twenty twenty three to present upon acceptance into the
Health Professions Scholarship Program, which is the HPSP for Clinical Psychology,
preparing for active duty service as a US Navy psychologist.
His clinical experience includes work in community mental health, private practice,
and military contexts. And okay, so I got through both

(06:25):
of your bios. Now there's a third person who's helped
write this book, and we'll give them a shout who
didn't join us today, and that's Charles W. Hoague, former
colonel also a stud US Army. You guys have just
really put together fifty years of experience of like military

(06:47):
of just combine health and I want to say healthy
human services, but health related things. You guys are really
focused on seeing people have a mental health day in
their life and take care of themselves. It seems like
and I just have to say something Samuel with with
your beard and who you are? And are are you

(07:10):
still in the Navy?

Speaker 5 (07:12):
Yeah, so I'm in a student status right now. So
the Navy's paying for my tuition and they're giving me
a little stipend. But I get to wear a beard
and kind of do what I need to do to
get classes done. And then once I go back on
active duty for internship, it's.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
All got to come off, all come off. So what
are your current what's your current rank? Are you an
O four five?

Speaker 6 (07:38):
So I was an.

Speaker 5 (07:39):
Four in the Marine Corps and now I'm in one
in the Navy until I go back on activeduty.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah, so is that one now an ensign? Yes?

Speaker 1 (07:50):
And an four would have been like a major captain yep.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Oh, yeah, that's a anna marine.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
You too, Okay, and so and so, Jessica, you retired
as a office a major as a major, so that's
a four and a marine. Okay, Yeah, you are pretty
both are pretty awesome. Okay, No, you fit right in here.
The vibe.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
So you guys have written a book with Colonel Hogue.
I'm going to say it like that because that's how
I remember his first name. Now. It's called Unseen Warrior,
a Military Cultural Guide for Mental Health Professionals, right, why, Jessica.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
Yeah, I'll kind of jump in here. I recruited Sam
and doctor Hoague at one point to go on this
journey with me. The kind of the backstory is is that,
you know, I want to be a marine my entire life.
Nine to eleven hit. I was like, I'm going and listed,
I'm doing this thing. God had a different plan. I
kept getting bumped around by recruiters, ended up going to college,

(08:57):
graduating college, trying out for the Officer Corps hardest challenge
in my life. Fell in love with it. Obviously joined
in twenty eleven, twenty sixteen, I get there's a drawdown
and a lot of us got released, and I was
one of them. And I remember, like the day of
the next day when I got my DT two fourteen,

(09:19):
my active duty husband is putting on his camis going
to work, and I'm just lost completely. I can say
the word is despair now, but I was completely like
who am I? Loss of identity, loss of job, loss
of friendships, loss of coping skills, structure, you name it.
It was all gone in an instant, and it kind

(09:41):
of just started this whole like Sam, let's say, mesearchs research.
Six months later, I'm starting my master's program and marriage
to Texas A and M for Marriage of Family Therapy,
and I'm introduced to doctor Hoague's book, his original book,
Once a Warrior, Always a Warrior, shout out out to
that one, and it changed my life. It said that

(10:04):
PTSD is a paradox, what a scene as what saved
your life and a life threatening environment is now a
symptomology in the first world country And it blew my mind.
And so it started me from that point on twenty
sixteen to where we are today. Research dig into the
stut the information out there. Why am I different? What

(10:26):
is wrong with me? Why am I not assimilating back
into society? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
It was very weird, So why why?

Speaker 3 (10:38):
Why?

Speaker 1 (10:38):
You know, it's because like all of a sudden, now
you're like you have to sit down and you're like
turning the TV on and everyone's you know, a part
of the machine, and you were a cog in that machine,
and now you're outside of that and you're just looking
from the outside in and you're just like, well, how
can I cope with the situation yourself? Like this is
just from mesearch?

Speaker 4 (10:57):
I love that, Okay, yeah, no, it we go in
depth into there's a chol chapter about transitioning in the book.
It is it is a culture that we assimilate into
the military culture, and it's you're my opinion, You're it's
a cognitive changes. There's things that happen that you need

(11:19):
to be different in order to thrive with it in
this environment, and that difference never goes away. And then
when you get out, it doesn't quite fit with the
civilian society. Civilian society is very chaotic. Civilian society is
very feelies. Lots of emotions, but that's not the military culture,

(11:40):
and I think that we can go into it. But
it is definitely like cold water really, you know, poured
over you. It is a different transitional experience, and I
think that we minimize it and celebrate it. Good job, man,
what are you gonna do? And it's like I just
lost everything. So I long story short, I'm in my

(12:02):
PhD program. I am presenting at a conference. Sam is
at the same conference. I am presenting on chaplain burnout
and Sam is presenting on something military. I go up
there in my little bolsterous, challenging way and I'm like,
what do you know? And he's like, yeah, I'm a

(12:22):
marine and this is what so yes became besties right away.
Did the Smith test was like I know you. And
I was offered a book deal from a a few
hours later from Kendall Hunt Publishing based on my presentation.
Walked over to the Sam. I was like, hey, you
want to be a co author.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
Ye.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
He was professional and he could just carry himself like
a lieutenant colonel could. And I tend to be more
on the acting enlisted side and in the way I
hold myself sometimes. And I was like, this is a
great fit. He can balance me out.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, yeah, and so and so so. Sam. Is that
really how it all went down.

Speaker 5 (13:12):
I mean, I can't speak for Jessica, but my my
experience of it was that I'm in this conference, I'm
presenting this poster, and this person comes up to me
and is like, hey, great poster. You want to join
a book project? And I was not one to shy
away from opportunity. I was like, sure, let's do it.
But the pitch for me was that there's a gap

(13:37):
in literature that clinicians need to better understand military populations.
Right because we have the VA, we have the Department
of Defense health sectors that are looking at how can
we prevent veteran suicides, how can we support veteran mental health,

(13:58):
how can we support active do service members and their families?
But what was missing is like something that specifically addressed
the cultural features of the military and why it's different
than somebody walking in off the street into a clinic
and saying, hey, I've got anxiety depression. PTSD. Helped me

(14:19):
because cultural considerations are crucial, and they teach us this
in the Doctor of Psychology program. Like you, A lot
of our classes are spent just understanding and reflecting on
how different cultural aspects, even language, how that affects someone's treatment.
And if you look closely at some of the VA's
statistics for treatment, there's a very very high failure rate,

(14:43):
a high dropout rate for mental health treatment services. So
we're thinking, Okay, what is missing from this equation. What
is it about military culture that military and civilian clinicians
might be missing that's preventing them from connecting with this
population in a way that brings about healing Because regardless
of the treatment type, regardless of even sometimes that the medications,

(15:07):
the basis for healing in mental health is the quality
of the therapeutic relationship between the clients and the practitioner.
And if the practitioner does not have the knowledge, the
cultural knowledge, or the understanding of what this person has
been through or the stressors that they're currently experiencing. If
we're talking about activeduty service members, they're not going to

(15:29):
be able to connect and the veteran is going to
stop going to treatment or the treatment is not going
to be as effective. So that's kind of what caught
me as like, Hey, I don't think there's anything out
there that actually fills this knowledge gap for practitioners. So
the book is primarily written for practitioners, whether they're civilian
or military, working with active duty or veterans or their families,

(15:52):
to understand, Hey, this is essential information of field manual,
if you will, for understanding the military mind so that
you can actually treat these individuals effectively.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
That's great. I'm still listening. Yes, No, continue with their posters,
you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 6 (16:13):
Yeah, that was the pitch. That was the pitch.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
I mean, of course, to evolved over time, but initially, yes, yeah.

Speaker 6 (16:19):
Like where is this information?

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Where is it?

Speaker 5 (16:22):
We talked, We talk We talk all about like how
to connect with people in community mental health context with
this low income. We talk about socioeconomic disparities and how
that affects barriers to treatment. But are we talking about
why veterans hate going to therapy, why active duty service
members do not want to go see the on base clinicians,

(16:44):
whether because they're worried about their security clearance, because they're
worried about oh what if I get even a diagnosis,
because that's the way.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
The whole mental am I going to lose my Second
Amendment if I go and tell somebody that I'm having
to eat funny thoughts, and a lot of people don't
want to lose just that fraction of a sick situation,
let alone.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Here's a bunch of pills. You know.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
It's like, hey, oh so you have this, this, this, oh, this, this,
We're gonna cocktail you up with this plastic cup full
of little pills swallow every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday,
Monday at two in the morning. And you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait,
is there something else? Is there something else that I
can do besides open up a pill popper? You know,
it's like, can I go snowboarding, skiing? Adaptive therapy? You know,

(17:24):
when you're getting out of the military and you've got
you know, I mean being in nature.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
You could probably agree with this.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Whether you're swimming in a pool surrounded by the water
engulfing you, that water is just nurturing you like like
a mother, okay, just like loving you like a father, Okay,
both parents at the same time. You may not even
have your parents around, but when you get in the pool,
that water is gonna caresh you and your body is water.
So it's like, oh, why do I feel so good

(17:51):
in the water, even if you're scared of the water.
Once you get in it and you learn how to
adapt to it, it's just so it's so calming and
relax right. And then you get out of the pool
and you go back into your car and you buckle in,
and all the chaos, all the noise, all that's right
back at you, right, and we have to deal with that,
And that's kind of I guess the PTSD aspect is

(18:12):
all the chaos, all the noise, and then you have
the aspect of being nurtured and care for, which we
I always want my doctor to be a pediatrician.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, let me be clear.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
I want to be treated with a lollipop. And does
this hurt rad yes, we know. I don't want to
be like, suck it up, you're a big boy, grow up,
move on, tie your shoes, get out of my office.
That's not what is the best path for somebody who's
already dealing with a lot of noise. They would like
some kid gloves. It's like, hey, doctor at the VA,

(18:45):
I know you're gonna be you know, can you be
nice to me like a kid? Like when I lose that?
You know, where do we lose the pediatrician touch. As
we turn eighteen, all of a sudden, it's no longer.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
It's like what well, I think, I think to kind
of like summarize everything we're all saying too, is that
there's just a it's not just any one person's fault,
but there's just a lack of understanding on the mental
health field. On about military. You talk about like the
cultural understanding, The military wasn't even deemed its own culture,

(19:19):
wasn't definitionally called its own culture until twenty twenty one
when the APA and the American Psychological Association gave it
a definition for veterans, and then in twenty twenty two
and twenty twenty three, additional research came out by Cameron
that kind of distinguished that cultural aspect. But we weren't
even calling military its own culture, its own language, its

(19:39):
own values, its own ethics, morals, et cetera. But those
things that kept us alive again in those situations where
under stress, inoculation, in tense operational conditions we're talking about
training or deployment, those things that kept us in that
culture and thriving are now kind of counterproductive. If your

(20:02):
spouse is trying to talk to you and have feelings,
or your kids are want to hold your hand and
want to discuss things about booboos.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
You know, feelings, feelings, feelings. They're like, yeah, I gotta
wake up tomorrow morning at three thirty. Your feelings can
just you know, subside your feelings, kay? Because yeah, I
mean all the people I've talked to, you know that
have come on the show over the years, and everybody's
always trying to find a way to tap into that
you know, psychological profile that we all carry to try

(20:32):
to tame the situation inside our head. I was talking
to a commander of a Ohio class submarine recently on
the show It'll be coming out soon, and he was
talking about stoicism as a warrior's you know, philosophy in
the military and how you do comparliamentalize problems and shove
them behind your head, shove them away and try to

(20:54):
move forward in a challenging situation. And training. People die
in training. It's that serious training is just as almost
real as the real thing. You're training for the real thing,
and so there's so much going involved in training. They
get you guys, get spun up to sometimes do ninety
day tours, which is a hot tour deployment, and these

(21:16):
guys go in and they do ninety days. But it's
like one mission leads to two missions, leads to three missions,
all in the same twenty four hour period. And so
you get these people coming out of the military and
they've done a good job at a boy at a girl.
Hit them on the back. You know, here's your DD
two to fourteen, which for those of you that may
not know, is your discharge forms from the military, and

(21:37):
it has your characterization honorable other than or dishonorable. And
then it has like any awards or you know, certificates
of achievement that are on there, and it follows you
everywhere you go through the Veterans Administration. You can go
onto their app and find your DD two fourteen right there.
So you know, it's like that's all great. You close

(21:57):
out the end of your career. You can get all
these things signed by everybody, thinking it's gonna matter in
the civilian world, and at the end of the day,
a lot of that does not matter. That you're closing
out in the civilian world. Now you have to cocoon
yourself to come out a new butterfly. Okay, so you
you cocoon yourself to join the military, and then they
poofed you out as a butterfly. Some camouflage wings, okay,

(22:19):
cool antenna's probably the latest in technology on your head.
And then you're like, I'm flying, but where am I
flying to? And then they fly you back home and
say sit here and look at your Nintendo. You're like,
that thing's been sitting there for like six years with
dust on it, and now you're collecting dust on it.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
I just am assuming that's kind of the path.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
It's like everything slows down, and it's like, like you said,
you know, you get out, You're like, but you're going
to work, you know, to your husband, he's like putting
on his camouflage gear and off he goes. And you're
just probably used to putting on your camouflage gear and
you're like, wait, a second gear. I'm sure a lot
of us can all relate with that same situation. It's

(22:58):
just the getting out. So the cocoon asked, is what
I call it. So now you have to go in
and recaccoon yourself into a new butterfly.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Well, and one of the things that Sam did not mention,
and I'm really excited that you brought this butterfly cocooning transformation. Yes,
is that Sam's poster had He had this idea about
developmental stagnation and I'll let you take it, Sam, But
this is this, This is the reason I was like,
I need you on the book and I need your

(23:25):
brain in this project.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (23:29):
So I've been thinking about my own personal journey and
kind of what it was like for me to go
through the indoctrination phases and how I was really searching
for a sense of meaning as a young guy, and
I just kind of through the course of all the
indoctrination process, I just kind of attached it to the military.

(23:49):
I was like, Okay, this is this is my mission,
this is my life. Now, this defines who I am.
And I think the military does that on purpose because
it wants people to.

Speaker 6 (24:02):
Work really well within.

Speaker 5 (24:04):
The machine, like knowing what their role is, and you
can't do that if you don't attach your identity to
the service itself and say, okay, like being a good
marine is what defines me a lot a lot of
the time. So, and I think when you look at
the developmental psychology trajectory, when you look at the actual
stages of development.

Speaker 6 (24:26):
We typically pull people into the military.

Speaker 5 (24:28):
We're in this very very sensitive timeframe where their identity
is developing. They're like, okay, like I think I know
what I want to do. You're going one hundred miles
an hour. You're like often wrong, never in doubt, like,
let's do it right. And the military catches you in
that very sensitive period and says, this is your identity.

(24:51):
This is what defines being a good marine, this is
what defines being a good soldier, good airman, and this
is what you need to do to perform well.

Speaker 6 (24:58):
And the mission is most important, right.

Speaker 5 (25:02):
And then so what I experienced was kind of a
wholesale adaptation hook line and sinker of like, this is
my identity, this is who I'm going to be, this
is this is what defines success for me as as
a person.

Speaker 6 (25:17):
And oh, by the.

Speaker 5 (25:18):
Way, it has a more global sense of meaning because
there's a lot of energy in support for the military
at the time, because of nine to eleven, because of
you know, ongoing campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. So the
national fervor supports that this is the right thing for me,
this is this is a good thing to be well.

(25:43):
A lot of veterans when they get out and they
lose that sense of brotherhood, they lose that sense of meaning,
that sense of purpose.

Speaker 6 (25:49):
Their identity structured.

Speaker 5 (25:51):
Now that it's no longer attached to the institution, starts
to fall apart, and they're confronted with the realities of
and the monotony of civilian life. They're confronted with the
fact that, just like you said, a lot of the
things that they thought were amazing, all these awards, these accomplishments,
these extra moss that they got no longer seem to
really matter in the civilian world. They're applying for jobs,

(26:14):
they're thinking they're going to kick in the door in
the next you know, contract position or you know a
company that they come on too, and it doesn't really
connect in the way that they thought it would. And
now suddenly there's this sort of this identity crisis, right,
and on top of that, the loss of brotherhood and
all the mental health challenges associated with that or sisterhood,

(26:35):
you know, the loss of community makes it challenging to integrate.
Your language is different, your stress responses and normal environments
are different. But a lot of that is compounded by
the fact that your identity was attached to the institution,
and now it's no longer and you have to find
something else meaningful to attach it too. So that's a
little bit of a reflection of my experience was is

(26:57):
suddenly now I'm on the outside and I'm still in
the reserve. So I'm kind of like one foot in,
one foot out, and I'm starting to see that the
rest of the world doesn't think this way. The rest
of the world doesn't really like work this way. They
don't respond to stressors the same way. And some that
I'm like, oh, I actually have to figure out who

(27:19):
I am without the military. And it's like I started
doing this stage of identity development that I should have
done when I was eighteen nineteen years old when I
was starting the military. Now I'm doing it in my
mid thirties with the benefit of a lot of experience,
but a lot of experience was absorbed with the mission
focus with doing this, like following.

Speaker 6 (27:39):
This order, accomplishing that. And so I'm like, I.

Speaker 5 (27:43):
Would benefit so much from somebody understanding, my therapist or
clinician or even medical professionals in general, understanding that I'm
having to essentially go back in time developmentally to sort
this out so that I can be a better dad,
I can be a better husband, I can be a
better worker in the civilian community that are a psychologists.

Speaker 6 (28:03):
Whatever it might be.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
But until you sort out that phase where your identity
is essentially been hijacked by the military, you're going to
kind of be stuck. And so that's where having this
book and being able to essentially say and show the clinicians, hey,
this is what the development trajectory for psychologically for a

(28:24):
military member looks like.

Speaker 6 (28:25):
It's not the same because.

Speaker 5 (28:27):
They attached themselves to an institution when they should have
been figuring out who they really were, and now you
have this weird mix of institution in person that has
to sort of be unraveled and repackaged and refocused on
the individual for them to be able to flourish on
the outside.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
You know, it kind of reminds me of my dad,
former Green Beret, before I joined the military. He's like,
just remember something, He's like, you know, the uniform doesn't
wear you. You wear the uniform, and so you make
it what it is when you wear it. You put
the soul into the uniform. It doesn't wear you when
you want.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
It's the opposite.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
So I think what he was trying to say is,
you know, you be the best you in that uniform
at all times.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
And so you have to understand that.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
You know, it's not the tuxedo that you wear when
you go out that wears you. You wear it and
then you feel good in it or whatever you're wearing.
I just want to put it out there if you
may not have a military uniform or whatever that uniform
was that you were always wearing, you know, because you
got to remember some of our listeners, you know, they
had asthma and they could never join the military, but.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Yet they could.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
They should, They should be in line with some with
saluting some major they should be there. But someone says,
oh you have asthma, but yeah, somebody who's in there.
You're like, how did you get here? Like how did
you make it this far? You know, like the kid
with asthma should be here. You know, it's like, how
did you just get here? You don't even pass your
two miles what you know, things like that. It's like

(29:57):
there's just I don't know, it's just such a weird culture, right,
Like you said, Jessicad, the military is a culture, and
for it not to have been defined until twenty twenty one.
That kind of just like, I don't understand that because
I mean, seventeen seventies. A culture marine's been around a
long time, two hundred and fifty years. Raw. Okay, happy

(30:20):
birthday by the way, all right, okay, I'm I'm just
kind of baffled at as I'm listening, because you guys,
it's making sense now to my listener. You know, The
Unseen Warrior, a military cultural Guide for Mental health professionals.
That's literally what this book is designed for is clinicians

(30:41):
and doctors and folks to read. You guys have put
your brain power together to say, hey, you should implement
this in your practices and read this and have some
kind of insight into who you're dealing with. Even if
you just pull one line out of the book and
it helps that patient, you know, i'd imagine.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
Yeah, this book has been such a labor of love.
When I say writing a book is fun.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Or lying, now, I'm just joking on my water major
pro stress it It's okay, that's funny.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
It's no. It was a wonderful, amazing. It was like
a deployment. It was day in and day out twelve
hour days and on top of our normal you know,
I'm still my PhD. Sam Stone his PhD. Doctor Hoague
is still doctor Hogue and busy doing what everything he's doing,

(31:37):
and doctor Yes, a lot of important things. And even
the title Unseen Warrior was something that Sam and I
initially came up with and I just I clung to it.

(31:58):
I was like, this is it because it's imagine that
one time where you finally get the courage to say
I need help. I'm at my breaking point. You know,
painus weakness leave in the body, and here we are
saying I'm weak and I need this. That's a big
step for any person, but for especially for military and
veteran And then you walk into that mental health office

(32:20):
whatever it is, and you feel ostracized and the outsider,
and you feel like you're the odd one as they
just don't understand and say it's unseen within that context.
And I think that this book, if your listeners are like, well,
I'm not a mental health professionals, just spread the word,

(32:40):
your mental health professional, like, just spread the word. Is
really kind of grassroots movement because this is, to my knowledge,
one of the only books on the market right now.
That's designed by veterans that are also mental health professionals
that are sitting here trying to get the word out,
and the book is laid out a beautifully. I wanted
to make sure we talked about like boot camp and

(33:02):
the ASVAB and like you have to.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
Be really quel, I have sixty three yeah, yeah, yeah,
just let you know sixty three yeah, yeah, yeah, there
you go.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
That's nice.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
On the as fab, since you want to talk about
as fabs, I think I got confused on the ass
fab with all of the like cogs and the mechanical component.

Speaker 3 (33:22):
Of the thing of the whole test.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
I just was like at that point, I think it
was like, better pick an answer than no answer. So
you know, it's like if you have a cog going
left and a cog going right and a bevel gear
going up and down, which way is the piston going?
I'm like, I'm joining for something other than that.

Speaker 4 (33:39):
So that was my favorite part. I'm literally on the
screen do this like finger point I was doing.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
I was like, I was like, which, okay, since you
wanted to bring up the as fab, not to cut
you off, right, So the asfab is the Armed Studies
Vocational Aptitude Battery Test. I believe to enter the military,
you got to take an ass FAB. You can take
a pre ask fab at your recruiter station at the
career centers, but that's just going to give them an
idea of where you'll score on the greater as FAB,

(34:07):
which you have to take, which is like three or
four hours straight right a whole. I mean, you should
know right there at MEPs that you're in for it.
The moment you start taking the ASPAB, you should be like,
oh wait, this is four hours straight and no breaks
and no nothing. And they're like right, You're like, oh
and I'm just here, here, I am here. You go okay,
and it just starts right.

Speaker 4 (34:26):
There, two sections of math, two sections of English, like
but it tells you because the I guess the stereotype
of some people have is that you join the military
because you have no other options. Right, not always, but
that's stereotypical. But to really you see, like seventy eight
percent of the country would just be disqualified right off

(34:47):
the bat physically, mentally, emotionally. You know, an IQI is
to be able to score the number that you need
to even get in then and then we kind of
go through the I'm laughing because I'm thinking of how
hard Marine Corps boot camps are compared to.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
Maybe and everyone else's yeah, everyone else's just say it.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
It's okay, you have to.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Be a ranger to be equivalent to a Marine Corps
after boot camp in the Army.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
So let's just put it out there like that, right, Okay.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
I'm very proud of my service. I know, Sam, and.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
I'm very proud of your service. Yes, I just want
you to know.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
Thank you for my service.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Yes, yes, you're welcome.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
I can't get site tracked, but yes, no, it's it's
just a it's a wonderful like collaboration between like starting
a boot camp to starting with transition to the fleet,
to deployment's military sexual assault, suicide, moral injury is discussed
as very controversial right now, like is and we could
go into that, but we go into families, we go

(35:54):
into transition, pharmaceuticology, we we go into the neurological and
cognit the processes that I think that the adaptive brain
is kind of what I call it when we you
know about fight, flight and freeze are our main key
elements to survival. Well, what happens when you're in boot
camp or on additional trainings. They're scary, there's they're meant

(36:19):
to be fear inducing, stress inoculation, but you're not allowed
to go into the primal instincts of running away, fighting
or shutting down. You have to act in them. It's
of chaos and that trained response. Samini kind of differ
on what that could be. It's not readily studied, but
that most of research right now is done after the deployment,

(36:42):
after the military sexual assault, after the transition. It's not
taking into account. The research isn't that the brain was
already adaptively trained starting with that inoculation into the branch
of service. And so we're already starting with starting a
false I guess idea of who the population is that

(37:08):
the research is studying because unless you're a veteran, unless
you've gone through or a military, you don't know that
the transformation starts way before those secondary events. That's off.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
No, No, I'm I'm listening.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
You know, I'm just waiting to start getting into like
the marriage side of things, and like you know, mom
was home while dad was deployed as a Green beret
at my house, and he would be gone for three
to six months at a time. So my family unit
only moved really from California to Utah in the early
eighties when Dad got stationed here with the SF and
then I was about seven or eight. But I never

(37:48):
realized Dad wasn't home. Sometimes I'd be like, Oh, he'll
be back, He's just fishing. All I was ever told
is if anybody called for Dad, just say he was fishing.
And one time this guy's like, well, you know when
he's gonna be back, and I was like, yeah, six months.
I was just a little kid, right, and I was like, yeah,
Dad's just fishing for six months.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
But I always thought Mom was there.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Mom always represented as if Dad was there right now,
and then I'd hear Dad's voice on the phone, I think,
And so I never really feared. I always thought he
was a hero, so he's never gonna go anywhere, so
you know, but he would go to Thailand for six
months and do some type of joint training mission or
go someplace and do something. But Mom always held the
family unit together, and then Dad would come home, and

(38:28):
then there's feelings okay, and then there's like, hey, babe.
She's like, well, hold on, I gotta take aerin to school,
I gotta take Jerry to the class, and I got
to take care of all these other things. I gotta
go make sure the mail gets posted so that the
bills are paid. And by the way, I've been the
man and the woman in the house for the last
six months, so hold on, right, It's like, how do

(38:49):
you know? But they never really gave off any vibes
like that. I really grew up in a cool, loving home.
Mom and dad always seemed to have made time for
me to be who I am, and just like dedicated.
I always thought Dad was there to play baseball.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
With me all the time. That was a goal of mine.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
So the marriage aspect of it, and they were married
for thirty till he died. You know, she was seventeen
sixty something, so they were married like thirty five years.
Let's say thirty six years. Okay, long time, and so
longer than that. Geez, I'm doing them disservice. Sorry, I
don't know their exact dates. But anyways, my parents was
just together for a long time, so I get a

(39:26):
lot of that. So my wife and I've been together
twenty six years. Wow, you know, you know, hey, thank
you right, And so I get a lot of that
from them. They've always just bred, you know, you know,
treat your wife right, you know, treat your husband right,
family unit, you know, the kids, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
So I don't know, it's.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Just I just love hearing you guys talk about mental health,
and even if I'm not the doctor in PhD class,
I still have an opinion on, you know, a healthy
family unit of what I can see it. As you know,
maybe it was because I grew up in California to
Utah with the Mormon Klan. I don't know, okay, but.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
It's funny you say that because I mean, Sam can
jump in and talk about being the active duty father
right in the time that you missed For me, I
went from we were both active duty to then I
was a reservist. So that now i'm just as I say,
just as spot I am a spouse. It's a lot
less fun in my opinion on this side. But it is.

(40:31):
You had these transitions where the first couple of weeks
before they leave, they're shut down and you're trying to
hold on with your life. Then they leave and you're
like trying to process how to be a single person right,
and then two weeks before they start coming back, you're
wound up, going to excitement, nerves, the strangers coming back
to my house, and then another two weeks to try

(40:52):
to get into a normal like don't put your clothes there,
and this is how I did the thing. But if
you don't have good moral values or at least a
family that you can say, that's what right looks like,
and that's how we cope and argue. And I don't
you know, many service members, I mean the numbers are debatable,

(41:12):
have adverse childhood experiences, so they don't they've never seen
what a good marriage looks like, but then perpetuates the
stress in their life and the things that they then
have to endure. And Sam, I know, I just cut
you off, but.

Speaker 6 (41:30):
No, it's fine.

Speaker 5 (41:30):
I think that a lot of the reasons for why
it service member or veteran might initially seek mental health
treatment is because a lot of how the military culture
has affected them may not be fitting at home, or
they may already be dysfunction at home. That's kind of
making that it's interacting with it, whether you know, especially

(41:53):
for enlisted we know enlisted members don't make a lot
of money, right, The patients are not that great, and
so there's a lot of fun stresses that come with
it that affects the whole family system. So you add
financial stress on top of the fact that maybe their
system because of stress inoculation through training, that kind of.

Speaker 6 (42:11):
Thing, maybe a deployment where there were a lot of traumatic.

Speaker 5 (42:14):
Stressors, those kinds of things, they come back from that,
not to mention, they've been disconnected potentially for a while,
depending upon the nature and quality of communication and that
kind of thing. And especially in army, I mean a
lot of times they have much longer deployment sometimes maybe
is much longer than Marine Corps tries to stick at
a little bit shorter six to seven months at least
when I was in. But so now you have all

(42:35):
of these compounding factors where you have the service member
who comes from his military context comes back into the
home context. Maybe he's doing great at work or maybe not.
But let's say he's doing great at work, he comes
home and a lot of the same mechanisms for stress
response and managing relationships at work and the environments and

(42:57):
just all the stress and the heat and the equipment
and every thing that they have to do. Imagine they
kind of take that mindset into the home environment where
you have wife, maybe you have some kids, you have
other aspects of the community, and your whole system is
just is just at ninety nine all the time, right,
You're always just ready to react to something, right, and

(43:19):
normal home stressors they have a disproportionate response to it,
even if they don't have PTSD, even if they don't
necessarily have trauma. The stress of the military, prolonged workplace stress,
and the stress conditioning that they had to do to
be able to complete indoctrination and to be able to
be successful in a lot of the jobs they have,
that's kind of moved their stress balance into kind of

(43:42):
into the red or yellow zone where they're kind of
always like operating in this heightened stress state it's called
an allostatic load. Has kind of just shifted the way
their body just generally responds because they're under such high
demand all the time. So you have somebody who's has
kind of like a just always kind of operating in

(44:05):
that heightened stress zone now comes into a home environment
and they're trying to do normal home things, and what
do they do instead of being compassionate, empathetic, emotionally coregulating
with their kid when the kids having a tantrum, are
they able to emotionally coregulate and meet them and be
gentle And probably not.

Speaker 6 (44:23):
They're probably going to be like.

Speaker 5 (44:24):
Go here, do this do that like because they're they're
just like on the ceiling because they're so stressed with
the noise.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Right.

Speaker 5 (44:31):
So that's just an example of how the military culture
and stress inoculation and doctrination can kind of over time,
can affect military members' ability to function in normal environments.
So a lot of times why they might come into
therapy or seek treatment back to where this gramble all started,
is because they're experiencing distress in those other environments. And

(44:54):
that's typically where a diagnosis would be warrant is if
you're having distressed in multiple environments, not just one, right, but.

Speaker 6 (45:02):
Like or one that's that's really severe. It just depends.

Speaker 5 (45:05):
But that's kind of why we wanted clinicians to have
this understanding of how the military culture affects service members
and veterans so that way they can say, Okay, your
system is now kind of rewired or shifted to be
able to be successful in the military, and that's not
working at home, and we need to build you skills
to sort of tolerate the stress and to manage the

(45:27):
stress so you can be more emotionally president and resonant
rather than being a hammer where every problem.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Is a nail. Right.

Speaker 5 (45:34):
So yeah, and I think I think this book will
help clinicians understand that so they can meet them, meet
them where they are, and gradually work them kind of
down off the ledge, maybe literally, but also work them
down to where they are able to sort of manage
stressors much more effectively and prevent that from having a

(45:55):
generational impact on their kids.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
You know, I would say that from the family unit standpoint,
I was more enthralled with my dad's job than my
dad would bring like that he would probably want me
to be.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
In fact, I know it.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
He's like, I'm sorry I introduced you to all this
stuff at such a young age. And this was like
before he passed away in twenty thirteen. I was like,
I was like, why, Dad, I love it so much,
and he's like, that's why. And I was like, what's
he dropping on me right now?

Speaker 6 (46:27):
Man?

Speaker 3 (46:27):
What kind of knowledge is this?

Speaker 1 (46:28):
What are you saying to me that I just you know,
I own a couple combat tactical stores. You know, they're
all decked out. I got a kill house that does
training inside of it. We do that every single day.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
You know. I've just taken it to that.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
I was indoctrinated at a young age into the SF lifestyle,
and so I just kind of, I don't know, I
just figured, hey, you know there's plate carriers and you know,
battle belts and all that stuff is available, So I
now sell it. I'm like, hey, I got my own armory.
Look at me, now, Dad, you had an armory. An armory.
You know, it's the funniest thing. But you know, I

(47:04):
just have to say that he didn't really bring it home. Now,
that's not to say that. A friend of mine, he's
in his seventies now, his father was an army drill instructor, sergeant,
old school, right. If my guy's, for instance, his dad's older.

Speaker 3 (47:20):
He said, my dad.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Would bring it home all day every day. I would
always get it. I would always have to line up,
I would always have to have this done. I'd always
have to do this as if he was one of
the soldiers. And so I do remember a conversation in
the house where my mom might have said, I am not.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
One of your men. Uh huh. I think that did
get said somewhere in the house, and I was just.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Like, oh what, but I am what what? Where's dad?

Speaker 3 (47:47):
You know?

Speaker 1 (47:48):
But they were just having a conversation amongst themselves, and
so I am not one of your men because he
was bringing it something home.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
He brought an element like.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Taking order or adhere to this or whatever the case was,
or why is it my suit pressed the right way or.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
Something like that. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Mom was never ever gonna say nothing bad to that,
and she just said, I'm not one of your men.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
And I was just like, oh, so that's how I go.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
So I think that kind of talks about bringing it home,
you know, or not bringing it home, trying to separate
the punch in punch out, especially if you're active duty,
if you're twenty four to seven and you're a d
and you're at Parris Island all day or you're at MCRD.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
I think it's what it's called again. It's all up
here raw. And then I love my devil dogs.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
You just gotta know, you just gotta know, Okay, growing
up in an army household the green Berets. It was
always like, oh, you know, the first to die. They're
always the first to die. But having friends and growing
up and knowing Marines, I'm like, wow, you know, Marines
are bad ass. Okay, It's like, you guys are devil dogs.
The sharpest part of the blade that slices is what
you guys are.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
That's what I can say.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
And we have great uniforms, I think, so yeah, you know,
And that was always joked about in the house. You know,
all they look good because they die and they get
buried in it, you know.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
Or my dad would always be like Army, you know,
Marine corps. That's just the way.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
That's the taunts of each branch. But together, I promise you,
side by side, shoulders shoulder. He said that when there
was a problem, I would call the marines. He would
tell me that the Marines would come in and make
so much noise that they would just slip out underneath it.
And so I was just like, wow, what story is
that from dad? You know, where the Marines came in
and made a whole bunch of noise and you guys
just slipped on out.

Speaker 6 (49:34):
You know.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
I could imagine you as a as a child, be like,
what do they bang pots together?

Speaker 1 (49:38):
And be like, I just I figured that everybody had
an M sixty and they're just making noise, you know,
just like making noise. And Dad his guys would just
like see you later. You know, it's like, yeah, he's
supposed to do.

Speaker 4 (49:53):
This is one of the things. As much as we've
talked about like some of the the residual effects of
the military, I'll call it, there's so many beautiful aspects
of the military. And I use that term probably it's
I loved the military. It gave me structure, it gave
me a job, It gave me skills that I never

(50:16):
would have gained in the civilian world. Hands down, it
was I would never regret doing what I did, and
I loved it. And so I think that that's one
of the misnomers too, is that, yeah, there's some you know,
adaption hiccups when we get out and the things that
we've talked about. But I do want to kind of
give a shout out that the military has so many

(50:38):
benefits and so much training opportunities, and I mean it
basically paid for all of my doctorate. My gi build
it so yeah, it just kind of on the reverse
side saying the benefits of it. And and I think
that to your point we call it an outsider perspective
is that you're an outsider until we accept you into

(50:59):
our clan. And so same thing with mental health professionals,
like you're an outsider until you're not, and that trust
can once it's broken, you'll never regain it, like once
you know we tell you something, or if you have
no understanding the differences between branches of service on a
shallow level, like what's the difference between the Air Force

(51:19):
and the Marine Corps. If you can't give me some
descriptive noun or verb, that's that's going to be a
red flag. And that's going to be like you don't
know me, and you don't know my culture, and you're
definitely not gonna understand. I trained clinicians right now, and
one of the things I'll tell them is that if
a veteran or service member we used our humor, if

(51:40):
they laugh at something, you know, then my buddy got
shot and they start cracking up about it. You, as
a mental health professional, so to start laughing too, like
mimic that behavior, because a moment you're like appalled.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
Like, oh no, we don't laugh at that.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
You don't laugh at that, and they're like and then
they feel like, oh I can't laugh at that.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
And I think it's kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
He got shot on the butt talks though, you see,
So it's kind of funny, right, It's like, right, yeah, right, right, right, So.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
I love that, you know, and it's true.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
So mental health professionals at the VA, where most veterans
wind up going, do you feel that they, other than
hearing the stories from other vets, have you know, are
they pretty dialed in?

Speaker 3 (52:26):
You know?

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Can there be some work where they maybe get your
book to have some more insight into the veteran that's
coming into them. I don't know what I'm asking. Maybe
a little more, you know, maybe like you, right, you
would be the doc that we would go see because
you've served, you've been in and now you're sitting here
and you can laugh with them because you think it's
funny too, and.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
Maybe that's a little relatable. Maybe that's what I'm looking for. Right.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Maybe there's sometimes they go and sit down with someone
and they're sitting in a chair and they're like, hey,
go go ahead and tell me, what's your problems?

Speaker 4 (52:55):
Are they in the book They're like, you know, like I.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Don't have any problems, and like why are you here?
You're like, well, why am I here? Well, maybe I'll leave,
and then.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
They just leave and they don't ever get to like
really open up. And you know, it's it takes someone
to be vulnerable to have to open up to somebody
that they may not have ever met, never served with,
didn't go through the same processes with. But that person
on the other side is there to listen to you
and hear you out in a professional six sigma kind

(53:25):
of way. And what six sigma is is it's like
math of words, and so they're listening to what you're
saying to them, and they're just kind of maybe jotting
down some things and just you know, aligning them with
different I don't know, graphs that they might have for
their own, you know, field of expertise and saying, hey,
this person mentioned kill seventy seven times, but they were
laughing the whole time.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
That goes over into this column.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
You know, it's like even though they're a marine, and
that's the way they say yes, yes, right, yes.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
I think to your point, I cautious about what I'm
saying in this moment, because we all could have different
opinions about, you know, the aftercare that veterans can receive.
I think that this book for anyone who works with
this population, whether you're a noviced or you know, you're

(54:16):
an expert in the field, it's going to impact you
in some way. And that's how we wrote it. It
has enough in their meat potatoes that someone doesn't matter
what how long you've been doing this, is going to
grab something from it. And I think that there's a
lot of areas that can be improved upon within the
VA mental health system. But I think as a mental

(54:39):
health professionals in general, the research is kind of smattered
right now. We're kind of a Petri dish of let's
try this, and let's try this. I know that I
can see that firsthand and some of the things I'm
working with the Ukrainian clinicians and how we're trying to
treat the military and Ukraine right very different from the
US military culturally, not just that's a whole different conversation,

(55:03):
but they have a very limited career military. They have
some draftees, some conscripts, and some volunteers. That changes that
desire for which you're serving, changes the outcome for the
things you experience and the attachment you make to it.
But with the VA in particular, I think that any organization,

(55:27):
any nonprofit, anyone who has any hands in the cookie
jar dealing with military veterans or service members need to
have this book and needs to kind of do a
deep dive into it because we go through different modalities
that are effective research based, what cultural aspects can detract

(55:49):
from certain modalities or certain efficacies and treatment options medications
as veterans. It's a crazy It blows my mind that
the efficacy of medications aren't as effective for veterans as
they are for their civilian counterpart, and we don't know
that why. And I'm asking that question throughout this book,

(56:10):
and we're giving a lot of knowledge, especially in the
pharmaceuticology and the treatment sections back.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Like psychotropic style drugs or like you know, I have
some Navy seals that come on the show and talk
about a two week process of taking someone with you know,
traumatic post traumatic stress or you know a lot of
symptoms of that, and they've screened them for two weeks
off site and then they take him into like Chili,
you know, south of the border, and then they might

(56:38):
go into like an ayahuasca situation or.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
They might get yeah oh yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
This is like you know, everybody's looking for a way, yes, yes, right,
And they're like, hey, you know, we're tired of taking pharma.
You know, that's and like a mantra here at soft
Rep is thrills before pills, and so you know it's like,
what can you do? You not take the pill? Now?

Speaker 3 (57:02):
Do I take a pill?

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yes, I take a statin for my widow maker in
my heart at forty seven.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
And so I have to take it. So I take it.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Okay, But ninety nine percent of everything else is in
the gym, on the mountain, snowboarding, you know, constantly moving, swimming.
I mentioned swimming is a great relaxation method for you.
You know, you think you're gonna drown and you live.
You're like, ah, air, oh, it's so fun in here,
you splashing the water. Okay, look, it is what it is, right,

(57:32):
it's just thrills before pills.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
Now.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
You know, they're like, oh, maybe I'll try psilocybin. You know,
maybe cannabis isn't the right thing. For you, or maybe
it is the right thing for you.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Right.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
It's not a one percent save all medicinal use, but
it might help you. It might pull something out of you.
So you kind of just need to go down the
right path. And I mean, I'm just I'm thrills before pills.
So the more the less pills, the more thrill you know,
I think that you know mental health. I guess I'll

(58:04):
also say this my employees. They see me on the
mountain in the morning because I get up super early
six am and get up there through a blizzard. I
write tell about eleven am, and then I'm back at
work at twelve twelve thirty in the afternoon, just about
every day during the snowboard season. And they see that
and I'm like, well, what are you doing for your
mental health?

Speaker 3 (58:21):
Guys?

Speaker 1 (58:22):
I said, you know, And I'll go live on Instagram
be like, hey, I'm up here, I'm snowboarding mental health day.
Don't forget if you have a sick day or PTO,
just say I'm using it and you may see me
on the mountain, but that's a mental health day for me.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
I thought Rad took off the day because he was sick.
I thought he wasn't supposed to be on the mountain
snowboarding today. Now, man, I'm sick of work.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
How about that? How about that? How about how about I.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Need a mental health day for myself, and so I
use my PTO not because I have the flu or
because my appendix burst, but because I just need to
go do something for myself.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
A mental health day.

Speaker 4 (58:58):
No, and that's it. Body emotion stays in motion and
you clean out the the toxicity of stress when you
were in motion. I would also add just adding that
community around you, finding those warriors out there, that those
battle buddies having that purpose. Sam and I are both
going to be working with the military. I work with
them right now, he will be working with them in

(59:20):
the future. We found our purpose and giving back and
also within those those coping skills that worked with us
in the military. How therapeutic did you feel when you
were on that twenty mile rucksack height with one hundred
and thirty pounds on your back, So.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Like that was therapy therapeutic? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Right, but you did that. You're so hard, that's so cool,
You're so badass. I just want to let you know
that salute to you right there Okay, I just want
to say that's I've been at the base of the
Reaper at Penalty Yes, yeah, right, because I was doing
war games at Range one three one, which is just
at the base of the Reaper right there, and I
was with the master guns. He's like, hey, Rod, you

(01:00:05):
want to go walk up it a little bit and
check it out? And I was like, yeah, dude, you know,
let's do this right. You have to be a marine
to do this right. And he's like, well, you know,
we got people wives, they go up and down all
the time, but you know, yeah, most of the time.
You got to be a marine to go up and
down this, right. And I was like, all right, So dude,
it's literally like this incline that we're basically almost doing
mountain climbers if you're down on the ground.

Speaker 4 (01:00:25):
If you know that move and jamming climb.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Yeah, it's like a ladder. And I said, hey, master guns.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
He's like what And I was like, do you think
this little rock right here and the dirt has been
stepped on by a million marines?

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Yeah? And I was like, can I have it? And
he's like yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
And so I sat there and I started excavating out
this little pebble that I thought I was just gonna
keep in my pocket. It turned out to be this
like giant rock that was in the ground. And he's
all watching me, and I'm just like, I'm gonna get it.
I'm gonna get it. I'm just like carving out this
rock out of the reaper. That rock, though, I want
you to know, it sits at my shop in Leyton,
on a shelf right behind my cash register. And I

(01:01:01):
look back at this red rock with dust still on
it from being pulled out of the Reaper. And I
look at it and I smell it, and I set
it back down, and then Marines walk in. I'll say, oh,
you want to see something from your your childhood, your past. Huh,
I'll say, you see this rock right here.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
Look, I never want to go there again. I don't
ever want to see that rock. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
It's like, yeah, you had to get you know, you
go up that hill.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
It's such a you're awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
I just want to say, you know, It's the fun
part is when the pact are so heavy that you
can't stand up straight. If you do, you kind of
turtle or the packs are the size of you. Because
I'm only five foot two.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
I was gonna say, my best friend went in at
five to two. He's five foot two. Yeah, and I
have a picture of him in my backpack.

Speaker 4 (01:01:48):
Ah little guy, yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
And the Army wouldn't take him because he was color blind,
and he all he wanted to do was be a
cop in the army. And he's like, they won't take me.
And then someone's like, why don't you try the Marine Corps.
So they said we'll take you, and you know, they
turned him into Infantry three eleven. Sent me he sent
me a picture with his ruck on and all ready
to go, Like in the mirror, it's like this much

(01:02:11):
bigger than him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
I'm six foot.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Five, yes, so you can imagine him in my backpack. Okay,
I'm six five. He's five to two, but to me,
he's ten feet tall. And I will always see him
as just like this badass who just said nothing can
stop me. Colorblind didn't stop him. He went in and
cocooned himself into an O three eleven Marine Corps guy,
and now he is doing really well in law enforcement.

Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
Go believe it or not. Color blind do they know
that I'm not saying his name but anyways, you don't no, and.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
So and so and so, Sam, you went Navy or
did you go Marine Corps first?

Speaker 6 (01:02:49):
Marine Corps first?

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
Yeah, so you did the hump too. You know.

Speaker 4 (01:02:56):
I will tease him about this because has been to
Naval Academy, God bless them. They are four education. I
went to OS a different experience.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
We do not go to CS.

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
They do not.

Speaker 6 (01:03:13):
For four years. No, no, we we have the Naval Academy.

Speaker 5 (01:03:17):
You have four years of wearing like Navy uniforms and
doing all of their indoctrination and you get training in
like Marine Corps history and customs and courtesies.

Speaker 6 (01:03:29):
Along along the way. But like it's the.

Speaker 5 (01:03:32):
Only commissioning source for the Marine Corps. I'm aware of
where you do not have to go to Marine Corps
o CS.

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
Yeah, so is that Annapolis? Is that where you went?
Is that the Naval Annapolis? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:03:43):
And then we don't go to they don't go to OCS,
the Officer Candidate School the rest of us have to
go through. But we do meet up at the Basic
School TBS and that's six months long unless you get
injured or recycled or something. But that's in the field
for a week. Out of the field for a week.

(01:04:04):
You're basically learning how to be an infantry platoon commander,
and then you go to your molst school after that,
your job school after that. So there is you're in
training for about a year and a half before you
even see the fleet within the officer side of the
Marine Corps, before you're even c Marines or more. Sam
was two and a half years of highlight school.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Did you ever wear the Marine Corps colors at Annapolis
or did you always wear the whites and stuff like
top gun?

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:04:35):
You you wore like all the Navy uniforms pretty much
up until like the individuals selected like the Marine Corps track,
and then there was like maybe a day here and
there where they would let you wear like the Marine
Corps camis just with us Navy on. I'm just so
you feel good about yourself. But no, until you commissioned,

(01:04:55):
you didn't unless you were doing like a uniform fitting
or something like that, Like you didn't, you didn't wear it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
So they were really flexing the Department of the Navy
on you guys. Okay, yeah, paycheck, says Department of the Navy.

Speaker 6 (01:05:11):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 (01:05:12):
So two thousand and seven when I commissioned is when
I first officially wore the uniform as an active duty Marine.
Yeah so, and then hung it up in twenty three
to shift over to the Navy.

Speaker 6 (01:05:25):
So I wish I wouldn't have thrown away all my
other names.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Oh bro, yeah, I got.

Speaker 6 (01:05:30):
To buy them all again.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Oh no, I still got my dad's pea coat. It
will not fit me ever, but I still have that
from nom.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Yeah. He went Navy, then Green Beret after Vietnam. So
it was like this, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Yeah, flip flop thing for him. Just couldn't get enough.
I suppose so Morse code was his major.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
He knew all of the language.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
So I just want to say, you guys have just
been a really great calming conversation to have. I don't
even feel like you know I'm talking about a book
with you. There's a book involved in this conversation, and
I don't think it's just for clinicians, right, I think
it's for anybody who wants to have some insight into
how to maybe even address their spouse or their significant other,

(01:06:11):
or their brother or their sister.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
So if they just took this book and just decided
to read some of it and gain some insights. Read
three chapters of it, two chapters of it, flip through it,
open it up and say, oh, what's this chapter about?

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
Oh what did the chapter before that? Actually say?

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
You know, just like I said at the beginning with
the book club at Soft Rep, it's the gym, right,
Your brain needs a gym, and a book is a gym.
So if you can just read it, put some knowledge
into it, and just to.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
Say, hey, so deployment was crappy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Haa, right, just laugh with them, Okay, just laugh with them, right.
Just I think that everybody should probably pick up this
book check it out, definitely, you know, for psychologists and
everybody in that field where you're coming from, with that
being in the lane your expertise, they should all have it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
But again, I mean, this is something that my mom.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
Probably have read already, and my dad comes home and
she's just gonna like tornado him into just a niceness guy,
you know, like.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Oh, hey Jack, Hey, how's it going. Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Love is here, we're loving? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I read
the book. No, I know, how's your trauma today? How's
your trauma? You know, without saying so right, she would
just have that in her repertoire. So you know, the book,
if I can say it correctly, is Unseen Warrior. Is
that what we just need to look up as Unseen
Warrior or is it the whole title Unseen Warrior A

(01:07:28):
military Cultural Guide for Mental Health Professionals.

Speaker 4 (01:07:33):
So if you go to Amazon, you have to put
in the exact title as it's written, Unseen Warrior colon
UH mental Health Guide, Cultural Guide for Mental Health Professionals.
If you go to Kendall Hunt Publishing, they have a
little search tab and if you just look up Unseen
Kendall Hunt will have it right there as well.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Kendall Hunt Publishing, right, just like that, Kendall Hunt, there's
the book right here. It was just so easy, just
went right to it as she was talking. And it
has all of the breakdown, the table of contents. I
think it even has a format, yeah, print package ebook.
So if you want this on your kindle or you
want to have a sense to your e book, you
can get it immediately. It has your bios exactly, it

(01:08:15):
has all of the table of contents.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
And the e book itself, and also the physical copy
of the book will have QR codes in front of
every single chapter. Which you'll be able to see me
Sam and doctor Hou explaining the chapter, giving a little
bit more content to the chapter or context to the chapter.
The deployment chapter features myself and my husband, and it

(01:08:38):
also features my best friend who deployed in three four
and oh five through the push. So every single video
has or my co authors. I have two co authors,
Mary Tatum and Holly Baron. They are both military spouses.
They wrote a chapter in there, and they also do
QR codes, so they'll be able to tell you more

(01:08:58):
about their experience as I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
That's very cool. It's very interactive. Yeah, right, so you
can just scan the QR code, it'll pop up. You
already got your phone or your kindle, well if it's
if it's on a kindle, can you scan the QR code.

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
If it's digital, the videos will already be plugged in there.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
Oh I see.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
If it's a physical copy, like I'm old school and
I like physical, you can scan it with your phone
and the video will pop up.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Okay, very cool, very cool, And that is again the
exact title. We'll have that described down below. My producer callum,
will you put that in a dissertation down there and
a link as well, So if anybody watching this or
listening to this, excuse me, go ahead just click on
it and go check out the book. It's called Unseen Warrior,
A Military Cultural Guide for Mental Health Professionals by Jessica Bainey,

(01:09:47):
Samuel Francis za Zany, and Charles W. Hoague the doctor
who's doctoring. Yes, you got it, And I just want
to say thank you. We've had you for over an
hour on the show. It's been real easy to talk
with you. There's just so much more that I would
like to just like, there's just so much more that

(01:10:07):
is involved in this. You guys have just really we've
just scraped the frost, I don't know, off the tip
of the iceberg, you know. I'm just like, there's so
much more. So check out this book. If you are vulnerable,
go talk to a healthcare professional and let them know
that you have some thoughts and that you want to
get them off your chest with them and just see
what they can do for you. Don't be afraid. I've

(01:10:30):
had people reach out to me through social media on
Instagram with dire problems. I'm like, what can I do
for you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
And so we're all here in some way to say
what can I do for you? And I hope that
this show has reached you, the listener that really needed
to hear it, and you've taken us up on checking
this book out or just reaching out and seeking some help.
We love you and we want you to know that
you are good enough and dog Gonnet people do like you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Okay. So, in the words of Stuart Smalley.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
On behalf of Jessica and Sam and the doctor who's doctoring,
doctor Hoague, Colonel, I just want to say thank you
so much for being on the show. I want everyone
to go check out your book. It's on Amazon, and
definitely if you're in the profession of you know, working
with people and psychology and everything, go check out this book.

(01:11:24):
These two have put a lot of work into it
and a lot of passion and I hope you get
that from this conversation. And I just want to say
thanks for being on the show.

Speaker 4 (01:11:34):
You too, thank you, thank you, We appreciate it.

Speaker 6 (01:11:38):
Thanks appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
Yeah, and good luck with you and finishing your PhDs
and finishing all of this stuff. And if you ever
want to be back on the show, you have an
open invite and a platform here to reach out to
the community through soft rep.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
I just want to let you know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
That, okay, because nobody's oblivious to any of this. It's
all around us.

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
So thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
And again, I know I said I was going to
end it before, but now I'm really going to do it.
Go check out the book club soft reap dot com,
Forward slash Book hyphen Club, Go check out the merch store,
and if you got any questions, find me on Instagram
or wherever I'm at and I'll.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
Say hi to you. Okay. And with that, this is
Rat saying peace.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
You've been listening to your self.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Rep Ladi