April 13, 2024 • 48 mins
Stayton Bonner is a former Rolling Stone and GQ Magazine editor and the author of Bare Knuckle: Inside the World of Underground Boxing. This gripping narrative talks about the rise of Bobby Gunn in the lucrative blood sport, as well as intimate details into the gritty criminal underworld that drew in immigrants and mobsters in search of fame and fortune.
Bobby was a skinny but tough kid born into the world of boxing. At a young age, his father taught him dirty street fighting and bare-knuckle boxing. While lesser known, Bobby’s Marine Corps background further honed his toughness and resilience, forging him into a lethal weapon whose name would eventually be etched in bare-knuckle boxing history.
Get a copy of Bare Knuckle: https://amzn.to/3vNlLfx
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Welcome to another awesome episode of soft Rep Radio. I'm
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(01:18):
I want to welcome Styton Bonner who authored Bare Knuckle
and this is his first book, and we're gonna welcome
you to soft Rep. Welcome, great to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thanks for having me so much.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
You know, I have the book here, Bare Knuckle, Bobby
Gunn seventy three and Oh Undefeated, A Dad, a dream,
a fight like you've never seen Styton Bonner.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
What a great feeling book. Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I've had a lot of books come through my hand. Okay,
and there's a field. Do you know that there's a
feel to this book and it just feels good.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I'm glad to hear it.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh okay to me, yeah it does. It has a nice,
nice feel too it some of them are slick. Someone
just feels like a little gritty, you know. It feels
like where it comes from, you know. I box well, okay,
all right. My business partner says.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
The bag doesn't hit back to me all the time.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I'm like, you're right, you're right, you're right. So I
call a lot of fights. I sit around the ring.
I have a microphone. I'll call you from the red corner,
the blue corner.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
You know. I love to do it.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And when I was told that you want to come
onto our show and talk about Bare Knuckle, I was like, ouch,
well let's go. Welcome to the show. Glad to be here,
So you decided to go into the underground of the
Russian boxing underground in New York City with gun over here,
(02:37):
Bobby Gunn, I was gonna have to hold it up again.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
That dude has got a mug. Bro.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Yeah, he's a tough guy. Literally no cartilage left in
his nose. You'll give you the profile and compress it
totally flat bare knuckle.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I was so this morning. I was talking to my coach,
coach Demetrius at my gym at Legends. I was like, Hey, Coach,
I'm gonna go interview this guy about bare knuckle boxing.
He's like, Bro, that's the first thing he says, and
he's pro.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
He's pro.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
He's going he's twenty eight years old, wanting't it and
he's like, all it takes is won two punches with nothing,
just to rip you open.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Yeah, it's pretty fascinating and we'll get into the science
of it and the sport of it. It's completely different from boxing,
which is you know, you know, technical in some ways,
it's a longer lasting fight. With boxing, bare knuckles all
about speed and precision. You're trying to take down someone
very quickly with surgical strikes, but yeah, you know, to
(03:33):
back it up, Bobby Gunn to me was just a
fascinating person.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
You know.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
He was a father who was fighting in these underground,
mob backed bare knuckle matches to put his seven year
old daughter through private school. That story alone stood out
to me, and I was like, who is this guy?
So I was working as an editor in New York
City at GQ magazine writer there and saw a story
(04:00):
in twenty eleven about the first sanctioned bare knuckle fight
in US history in one hundred and twenty years, happening
on a Native American reservation in Arizona because they were
able to do it in tribal law outside of US
state jurisdiction. The winner of that fight was a guy,
Bobby Gunn, And you know, I was like, who is
this guy? What is this thing? I looked him up
(04:23):
on Facebook. He was right across the river in Hackensack,
New Jersey. I messaged him. He's like, yeah, bro, come
on over. So I went out and went to this
you know, gym Iken Randy's is actually in Patterson, New Jersey,
which this is not you know, your Bally's fitness. This
was in a you know, pretty tough neighborhood. You had
(04:45):
to go through a chain leak fence, past barking pit
bulls basically into this basement and it was a beautiful
place though. I mean it was really all dumb with love.
These guys in the neighborhood who were you know, trying
to you know, improve themselves through sport, and we're really dedicated,
a lot of great trainers, a lot of good young kids.
But man, this was you know, just sweat and blood.
(05:07):
The place just like a sauna of sweat and met
Bobby gun Bobby Gunn was this hulking goliath, you know, jeans, sneakers,
you know, cranking, just drinking a dunkin Donuts coffee, no
water and this in like a black you know, T
shirt and that's.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
How he's healthy.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, that's how he rolls.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
He's got his like cell phone holster on his belt
and it's just like because he just wakes up, dropped
his daughter at school to private school, before he goes
doing asphalt work. He would hit this gym and he
had a son with him too, because the son was
working with him, and you know, it was fascinating because
he also had this tiny little dog named Max, little
(05:50):
pitbull terrier that he would take with him. I'm sorry,
French bulldog he had with him, just the sweetest little dog.
He'd put his little water bowl out for him by
the you know, by the boxing ring, and you know,
put him, give him some treats, and then this guy
would step in the ring and just you know, savagely
go to town on other people. I saw him training in
(06:13):
a World War One gas mask, and I was just like,
who is this guy? He pops it off, It's like, Hi,
I'm Bobby Gunn. He was doing that to you know,
simulate training at altitude basically, so less oxygen. But it
was just an amazing introduction to this guy. And I
was instantly fascinated.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It was what you were looking for. He was what
you were hoping he would be. You're like, this is it.
This is who I.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Want to write about, and I'm going to follow you around.
And you did. You tailed him right like as a friend.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Oh yeah, So I spent years with him, you know,
so again, I was.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Living and working in New York at GQ. Then I
was at Rolling Stone as an editor. I spent years
with him, going all over to fights. He was still
in pro boxing. You know, he's still in pro boxing
as well champion fighter. But really what was fascinating what
you see at these boxing gyms is there's really an
underground world to the fight world in both pro boxing
(07:10):
and MMA. Because at this gym there was an old
school phone sitting on a desk about the size of
a toaster, and it was a landline phone, and there
would be a little message board next to it and
if someone in the underground or you know, a lot
of these were mob backed matches, whether it was Irish Mob,
Russian Mob, all these different factions. You know, it's like
(07:31):
blood sports, I mean, just like dog fighting, cockfighting. They
had this in Chinatown as well, where Bobby fought and
he was usually backed by the Irish Mob. Is their
guy to basically, you know, fun nights out. This would
be the entertainment and they would call and leave a
message for him. You know, Bobby Gunn called this number,
we have a fight for you, and that's how he
(07:52):
would get word to enter one of these underground matches.
But these these boxing gems were a lot of times
feeder systems as well. It was kind of this secret
underground world that existed just below the surface. Hey, you
want some quick cash on the side, there's going to
be a bare knuckle opportunity for you. And that's really
that's why Gun did it, you know, for the money,
(08:13):
and that's why a lot of other pro boxers and
MMA fighters I spoke with did as well.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
What kind of money are we talking about here?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I mean, I have an idea, I've read a little
bit of the book, But what tell me what kind
of money we're talking about that he's willing to put
his brain cells up against to put his kid through school, right,
because he's got it.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
He's got a job as asphalt.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
So he grew up paving, left school at third grade
and it's been working night and day his whole life.
And he does that all day. But yeah, when the
pro boxing career fizzled and he started taking on these
underground matches, it's all about cash, and it's quick cash,
you know. I mean a lot of these guys have
been burned by promoters, different factions that run boxing, had
(08:55):
gotten stiffed, gotten lowballed, you know. He had He had
fought as a trainer for Carl King it was Don
King's son, and had some pretty you know, atrocious experiences
in his pro boxing career. He was worried about the atmosphere.
It was a dangerous atmosphere going into these underground matches obviously,
where you have weapons and organized criminals and things of
(09:16):
you know, bikers and things of this nature. But you know,
there was a basic code in place and honors system.
And he did say, you know, the blood was red,
the cash was green. I mean, I always got paid
on time. I mean, honestly, at the matches would vary
in terms of prize money. I'd say an average that
I heard over and over it was around ten thousand dollars. Now,
(09:38):
Bobby Gunn doesn't have ten thousand dollars in his pocket
doing asphalt work. But what he would do is a
couple of things. A lot of times he would be
staked or backed by the Irish mob and they would
have a place in Hell's Kitchen in New York. You
go through this Irish bar, you know, down a back door,
down some stairs and there's a fight circuit there, and
(09:59):
you know, they he would stake money behind him. He
would also gather money from friends and families. Yeah, and
it was a base. It was just a very basic
proposition and he would put in his own cash. But
you bet on me, I'll double your money. That's really it.
And he always came through right.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
It's like, you want your money, then you bet on me, Bro,
I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
The most money he ever won collectively in a bare
knockle match wasn't a Russian mob fight in sheep, said
Bay in Outer Brooklyn, and that was a fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Person, that's gooft. How long did that take?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
It was a long time.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
So in that fight again, he told me he was
training at Iken Randy's gym in Patterson, New Jersey, said,
a couple of gentlemen from the Russian Mob, you know,
left a message. They arranged me at a nearby Starbucks.
He met with them. They explained the terms. The Russian
Mob was looking to have an event. Pro box combat
(10:57):
sports are very popular in Russian and gneral and they
even have their own disciplines. Again, Bobby had definitely had
a reputation at this point up and down the Eastern Seaboard,
particularly in New York City and across the country. And
they basically said, hey, we want to bring in somebody
for you to fight. You'll be the main card on
(11:19):
this Evening's Entertainment and Bobby agreed and he went there
and he had a little bit of a crew and
they had put together some cash and it was a
big purse ultimately, you know, I think they put in
twenty five total. And it was a long fight. I mean,
the guy they brought in from Russia could not speak English.
It was a slightly different I mean, the rules of
bar knuckle boxing are simple, and you can now see it.
(11:42):
The guys I was trailing, Bobby and David Feldman. Feldman
has literally created the bar Knockle Fighting Championship, which has events.
You can look them up online, you can watch them
on pay per view. There's going to be a big
one Knucklemania in Los Angeles in April.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I will be there.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Become a three hundred twelve million dollar sport now and
it's growing. These guys were doing this underground at that time.
But the rules are simple. At stand up boxing. You know,
it's just standing up hitting each other. Just no gloves obviously,
so it's not it's not grappling, it's not getting you
down on the floor, you know, it's not. Also, really,
these these these bouts would sometimes go rough and tumble,
(12:22):
which means all rules are off.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I'm gonna gouge your eye, gonna try to.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
To bite your nose off, but those are that's that's
that's that's unusual, and that's really either happens out of
a desperation by one fighter and then everyone understands, Okay,
this has gone south and let's see what happens. Or
if it's like that from the beginning, the money is
usually bigger.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
But that that's a rarity.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
So most of these matches are governed by basic boxing rules,
no hitting below the belt.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Et cetera. It's just it's just right with no gloves.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
But Bobby Gunn went in with this understanding it would
be that kind of a but this guy was doing
a slightly different variation of you know, Russian bare knuckle
fighting and started again kind of doing more grappling, crazy rules.
Bobby just remembers him as being very hairy. Bobby says,
they walked in and it was people in evening where
(13:16):
and it was a nice dinner and event. And then
there was a space cleared out in this mansion and
out of Brooklyn for these guys to in a makeshift
ring go at each other Bobby put him down multiple times,
and you know, it was a fairly long fight by
bare knuckle standards. Usually these things just last a couple
of minutes tops, because again, if you don't have a
(13:37):
glove on, you know, glove is boxing is the war
of attrition, right, because it's these blunt, broad impacts that
you're you're hitting someone else with and you're wearing them down. Obviously,
there's a technical aspect as well bare knuckle boxing. I mean,
if you don't have a glove on, you don't want
to break your hands, so you're you're automatically pulling your
punch to a certain extent. Now, skin on skin. First off,
(14:02):
the first time I ever saw one of these, it's
the noise, you remember, it's like this wet slap. It's
a very different sound, and it really does grab your attention.
But also skin on skin contacts just bloodier. Now it
looks bad, But the flip side of that is because
you are pulling your own punch and you're hitting someone
(14:23):
with less force so you don't break your hand, it
actually reduces the impact and studies have shown this so
far reduces resulting concussions and CTE levels because you just
don't want to hit somebody as hard so you don't
break your hand. A great analogy is a sport of
rugby versus the sport of NFL football. NFL football. We
(14:44):
can all watch it on a Sunday afternoon with our kids.
It looks really sanitized. These guys are doing massive, massive
damage to each other, but you don't see it.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Rugby.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
It's a pretty violent sport to watch, but again, in
the long term, they're getting hit with much less face.
So when Bobby would go into these he had decades
of experience in the pro boxing ring, had a real
set of skills that most guys did not have. But
he also really knew from years of bar knuckle fighting
(15:14):
how to quickly take someone down, and a lot of
those are body shots, organ shots. Hit someone in deliver,
go for the kidney. So he could, like with his
small hand as opposed to a much bigger boxing glove,
really kind of surgically strike and nowhere to hit you yeah,
on your internals, and it just drops guys, you know,
I mean well, his strategy would usually be to do
(15:36):
a little bit of cuts up top, get some blood
in their eyes. That typically takes the fight out of
a person, gets them a bit disoriented and then and
then drop them pretty quickly with a devastating, very technical,
very precise body shot. Bobby was doing that in this
Russian fight at this mobster's mansion in Outer Brooklyn, and
(15:57):
the guy was basically unconscious. There was one young gangster
in the crowd who kept yelling at the fighter, maybe
he had some money on the guy to get back up.
Bobby said he was done, and the kid pulled a gun,
his gun says, and you know, basically put it to
Bobby's head. And you know, everybody kind of freaked out, obviously.
(16:20):
And there was some older gentleman who was running the
organization there kind of the dawn of the Russian mob
They looked to him. He said, no, he fought a
good fight. Give this man his money. Bobby got fifty
grand in a brown paper bag and drove the hell
out of there.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Oh bro, But still, I mean, wow.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
Yeah, I mean, look he's got in the book. It's
just crazy. I recount so many stories. Yeah, I mean,
Bobby's life is like any unlike any life.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
You will ever come across. You know.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
He was born in nineteen seventy to Irish travelers. If
you've seen the film Snatched, the Guy Ritchie film. Yes,
Brad Pitt's character is an Irish traveler, so yes, these
are basically itinerant workers, as the name would imply.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Far and Away. Yeah, I hate to bring that up. Yeah,
I don't like your hat, Shannon. I don't like you. Yeah, yeah,
come on, I mean yeah, tell me you like my hat.
You know, it's like, exactly, don't like a hat, and
I don't like you.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Okay, it's not his sister, you know, but I mean
that whole that movie Far and Away was Irish travelers
coming into America picking out a job that they could get.
They just wanted a job, they just wanted to work.
And they're like, all right, well, let's fight then, a
bare knuckle fight. And I'm sitting in the position of
the old school style stance. You know, it's like he
(17:41):
just had it in his nature. Bobby Gunn is like,
let's go.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, you're absolutely correct.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
And before we get into that, you bring up a
point talking about Far and Away with Irish immigrants in
the nineteenth century. Look in the United States in the
eighteen hundreds, bare knuckle boxing was the most popular sport
in the country. Alongside horse racing in baseball. I did
not know any of this until I started doing research
(18:09):
for the book, and we include the history of this
in the book. But it's fascinating. I mean, you know,
it was always a means for immigrants coming to the
country to you know, make money. It's obviously you don't
do this unless you need cash pretty desperately, but also
to move themselves up in society. I recount a story
(18:31):
the Martin Scorsese film Gangs of New York. Daniel da
Lewis's character Bill, a butcher based on a real life
immigrant who was also a champion bare knuckle boxer, and
he was able to parlay that into political clout and
that fame in the ring. There was several instances. There
was Tom Mullino, who was an enslaved person in Virginia
(18:54):
who became renowned as a bare knuckle boxer on plantation bouts,
made so much money his owner freedom. He then made
his way to New York and then to England where
he fought bare knuckle champions over there. And so, you know,
it was a sport that was always a means for
people in the most desperate situations to pull themselves up.
(19:18):
The most famous person, the lebron of the eighteen hundreds
was this guy, John L. Sullivan, and it is the
classic image of a you know, mustachioed, shirtless you know,
a Bronnie Musseley guy. And he was the son of
an Irish plumber who became renowned for his bare knuckle
(19:40):
boxing skills. Traveled the country. You know, his breakfast was
like eating a dozen raw oysters and drinking whiskey. He
would travel down to town and it was like a game.
You know, anybody who can beat me, come on up.
And he took them all down, you know, went to
the White House to visit day. Roosevelt traveled in the
you know, wild Bill Hoocock's West Show, Wild West Show,
(20:03):
so you know, really was was a headliner. But what's
fascinating is even back then, in his final fight New Orleans, Baron,
uncle boxing was starting to become more and more unseemly,
and you know, especially amid you know Christian Protestant like yeah, taboo,
and it was just seen as bloody and gambling was
always a central part of this. So in his final fight,
(20:26):
where he took on an opponent outside, it was a
mysterious location people took a train at the last minute
out of New Orleans and they were dodging authorities and
it was this epic epic, you know, seventy something round
about and he won, and he won, and his opponent,
Jake Corraine great great grandson, actually ended up heading up
(20:48):
Special Operations Forces years later. It was a seal and
just just fascinating history of these guys. But that's when
the sport really went underground. Boxing again rose up. Was
not as bloody, you know, gambling was still happening, but
just not so ostentatiously. And the you could have you
(21:09):
can make more money as a promoter because bare knuckle
was usually a shorter duration except for some of these
crazy bouts back then, so it became a more sanitized version.
But what's face fascinating about boxing in general is, you know,
one boxing commissioner told me, it's a billion dollar sport
run like a five and dime store. There's no NFL,
there's no MLB, NBA, It's run by these state boxing commissions.
(21:33):
So you know, there still is a lot of independence
and you know, different rules throughout and and that's when
you know bare knuckle really went underground, and you just
had to know to get the invite to go to
one of these things, and that's where where Bobby Gunn
became a champion.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
You know, speaking of Snatch previously, you know with the
Brad Pitt character, he seems to always kind of tailored
himself towards that scrapper fighter, like with the movie Fight Club.
You know, it's like straight up bare knuckle. He's just
taking a drag, flexing his risbs and just right back
to punching each other.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
It's like yeah, so yeah, and again taking it back
to Snatch. So those are Irish travelers and that's what.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Bobby Gunn is.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
So you always think of the Irish travelers, especially aspected
in that film, as being overseas in Ireland, but there
is a large faction. It's as the numbers aren't exactly
known here in the United States. It's estimated to be
about ten thousand, but these are Irish travelers who live
and work across the country. They tend to be located
more heavily in certain areas in Mississippi, South Carolina, New Jersey.
(22:41):
Outside of Fort Worth, Texas, there's a large community, but
basically it's a community that's very tight knit. They even
have their own language which Bobby would slip into quite
often with other people, can't. And the joke is you
can't understand us, but it's called can't. And they tend
to rever two things, which is religion and fighting. I mean,
(23:03):
you know, it's a close knit community. They are raised.
I met a priest who caters to the community in
Memphis and he gave me a lot of insight for
the book. And you know, they're just raised in a
very religious, old school religious way. And you know, Bobby
before every fight would literally lie prostrate on the ground
praying to God.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
You know.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
He didn't drink, no tattoos, no cigarettes, nothing like that,
you know. But the other part was fighting. These were
people who they would pull their children out of school,
usually around the middle school age, because they did not
want them to assimilate, typically with broader culture. And it's
in their culture and it's what Bobby was raised doing
(23:45):
to work as an itinerant tradesman. It was a derogatory
term that was used, but you know, Tinker was referring
to travelers and that's those were traveling people in Ireland,
you know, showing little trinkets in things towns to town.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
So if you tinker on something.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, and like doing like metal doing like metal work.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Again, it's a derogatory term for the community, as so
is gypsy, but these were all terms that were referencing
the traveling the traveling communities they would do like metalsmithing
and things like that, and that's what they do today.
It's it's usually more of like asphalt coding and and
you know, working on barns and literally going door to
(24:25):
door and knocking. They do have a reputation for taking
advantage of people, as I report in the book based
on my interviews and reporting, it absolutely is warranted in
several cases, and you can see this online. But I
do think it's overblown and it's unfair how this entire
community has been, you know, given that broad paint paint stroke.
(24:46):
Bobby Gunn is a very upstanding person in his business
dealings that I've seen, and you know, it's as has
done right and a lot of I think they're unfairly
maligned in that way, but it is. It is itinerant
work and that's what he was raised doing. But they
also gather in these groups and they fight. His father
was before there was WWE. He was known as Black
(25:07):
Bart and he would travel in these early early wrestling communities.
Is the heel these guys would be in like some
you know van traveling city in the city.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
You know, a touring band dude trying to get there,
you know.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, playing in your local high school gym.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
They would have razor blades and do the cuts all that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
We have a gig at the hair salon, guys. Yeah,
a gig's a gig, bro It's one hundred and fifty bucks. Yeah,
so bring my five thousand dollars amps and all my
stuff to the show that I yes, because it's a gig, right,
just to show the craft, to be a part of
the art, to just be able to like continue and
put it out there. You know, like a like a
theater in back in the day where they'd have wagons
(25:49):
that roll through town and they'd set up at theater
and people come pay a penny or pence or whatever
to sit down and watch with this theatrical I mean,
really just to give the craft.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
I love it. Yeah, good job, Bobby Gunn, you know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Good job, Well, Bobby grew up in that so his
father stops doing that. When when Bobby was born and
took him on the road with him, he left school
at third grade. It's just hard to go to school
and it wasn't really taking if they were always In.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Your book you talk about how you know, I'll give
a little bit out there. It talks about how you
know he was eleven and his dad's waking him up
because he's already been boxing as a young man, like
training as a boxer. His dads, I get up and
go pumel these guys out in the parking lot for me,
will you because they don't think they can. They think
they can be a probably an eleven year old. I
got this kid that could kick ass, Like, yeah, bring
him out here. He's like, okay, fifty bucks, who knows?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Yeah, you know. But Bobby was already thrown into the
ring by his dad.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
One hundred percent. So Bobby from birth was trained in
pro boxing. His goal was to be an Olympic boxer.
But simultaneously the dad started training him in the art
of bare nuncle boxing as a child. And this was
a tough, tough kid. They were living in motor courts,
you know, when they weren't on the road going campground
(27:05):
to campground looking for work.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
They're living in.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Motor courts on Lundy Lane on the outskirts Niagara Falls,
which was a tough area. You know, you imagine a
motor court with criminals, prostitutes, that whole thing. Bobby at
eleven years old. One night, he was sleeping on their
shag carpet floor his father. It was not unusual for
his father to go out drinking all night, then be
up at five in the morning and going out to work.
(27:28):
But the dad woke him up in the middle of
the night. Just remembered his cigarette glowing in the dark.
His mom was asleep on the motel bed, and the
dad said, get up, put your clothes on. I've got
a guy out here. You got to beat him. And Bobby,
you know, without questioning it, didn't, put on his T
shirt and jeans, walked outside. It was a grown man
(27:49):
that Robert Gunn had brought home from the bar. There
was a crowd of people watching the guy's buddies along
with some prostitutes and various hangers.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
On and the you know, the guy. It basically kind
of looked at him.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
I was like, what the fuck, this is a kid
and gun just took him out straight to the face. Yeah,
and then you know, the guy started throwing some haymakers
and he took him down pretty quickly. And his father
pocketed one hundred dollars.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
So this is.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Something that he would repeatedly do, which is quick cash.
You know, he'd be like all the guys. I talked
to his father about this. Father still alive and interviewed
him multiple times for the book. He's like, yeah, you know,
I just I would bring home ringers. I knew my
son could take him out. Now, this is obviously an
abusive situation. I mean, this is not a healthy one.
(28:40):
And you know, Bobby is interesting. I mean because his
father trained him in these really brutal ways of fighting.
In addition to bare knuckle, he taught him what's known
as rough and tumble, which I mentioned earlier, and that's
those are rules if it's just a dirty street fight,
you know, how to really use any means necessary to
take another person down. And it's it's fairly her horrific.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Way to fight.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
But Bobby was trained this way, and his father will
say it too. He's like, look, I knew he was
entering a tough world. I was just wanting to forge
him as a weapon. And even Bobby Gunn he'll be like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
This sounds awful, but I understand my dad, and that's
that's what he was raising me to do, and that's
that was just his childhood.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah, he's not feeling any like, oh I was overwhelmed.
He's not saying Dad didn't know that I couldn't do that.
Dad wasn't throwing him to the wolves.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
He he was like, come to my son. Let me
introduce you to my child that I got here. And
he's going to kick your ass.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I mean, look, and you.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Don't think so, oh you're drunk, old man, You're a kid,
can't beat me. He's like, yeah, I haven't drunk, old man,
aren't I I don't know. I'm just assuming, right, Yeah,
I'm just talking shit, you know. Yeah, no, how would
you get your yeah, how would you get a fight going?
Speaker 4 (29:53):
You know? You got to smoke the bear.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Oh yeah, Like the dad would definitely be on the
sideline talking massive shit like you, Yeah, my son's going
to kick your ass and like you call that, you
call that a fight? I mean that's something else. Gun
recounts as his dad was just a world class.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Eleven year old right now, kicked your ass right now? Yeah,
and the son's back there like, oh I got to
wake up.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, Yeah, that was it. That was it exactly.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
So, I mean, honestly, all of those guys were in
for a world of pain and love.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
They would never know what was gonna hit them.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
You know, they're coming in two in the morning, drunk,
just you know, whatever will pop this kid and this
They have no idea that they're coming up against the
terminator and this eleven year old kid just takes him down.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
How big was he at eleven? Do you think how tall?
How tall is Bobby?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
You know, he's not huge.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
I mean he's around you know, five to eleven now, uh,
and he'll he'll mean he's a jacked five eleven.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I mean he is thick and muscular.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
But he will say back then, as he calls himself, quote,
I was an opie looking motherfucker.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
I mean he was like, I think he's a skinny kid.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Probably helped him win.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Yeah, he was a skinny eleven year oh kid. You know.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
But again, the father, he was already training around Canada.
His mother was American, his father was Canadian, so he
has dual citizenship. But he was training as a pro
boxer at that young age and really knew his stuff,
so he was a lethal weapon. But he's a skinny
little kid.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Right, but he just knew. He just knew. He just
picked it up.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
There's kids in my gym right now that I look
at and I'm like, man, how come I wasn't like
thirteen focused on boxing? I wish I would have been.
I was forty five when I got introduced to the
gym lifestyle. I was always into boxing and for years,
but I was like, oh, one day, I'll get in
the gym.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
One day, one day, one day, one day, one day.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
And then I took that step and I made it
that day, and now I don't know why I can't
go without it.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Absolutely. I mean, it's a great way to focus your mind,
your body, your discipline as a as a young person.
And that's something I saw not only in guns life fighting.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It's just a hard upbringing.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
He was ostracized because his father was from one plan
of travelers, his mother from another. He was a bit
of an outsider, never really welcomed by broader family and community,
and lonely had just a really hard hard, itinerant background
and upbringing, and he really focused on the boxing and
(32:19):
the gym and his trainers and the managers, and you know,
that was really his productive outlet, his creative outlet in
his life, and I think it really did save him.
And it just it's it's just an integral part of
who he is.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, gyms can save lives. An there's a coach in
there that can just see something in that kid and
just be like, hey, Kime.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Here, yeah, absolutely do this, let me see that out
of you.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And next thing, you know, you're like, I have a
purpose and it's the gym and the gym, and I
see kids cleaning up the gym after Jim. You know,
they're like, hey, I'm just helping out, just making sure
things are taken care of, helping the coach put stuff
away because he's holding mits and he's teaching us all
this stuff he doesn't really have. He doesn't want to
have to vacuum or whatever.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Yeah. Yeah, that's it exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
And it's it's part of the training too, right, That's
part of that discipline, getting kids to help with cleanup
and all of that. And there's you know, every gym
I went to, you know, and Gun would take literally
a baseball bat to some of these and he had
you know, people had tried to jack him in these
some of these neighborhoods. And you know, whether it was
Philadelphia and you're going into a walk up and it's
literally an apartment that has become a makeshift gym for
(33:24):
the community because they don't have a gym, but they
needed that space. All of these places that there was
a lot of crime. These were hard, hard areas. Again,
Gun had a baseball bat with him for a reason.
I never saw any problem personally. I always saw nothing
but respect because these these gyms are community hubs and
a lot of neighborhoods and they're a place where young people,
(33:47):
all people can go and really focus and improve themselves.
And that was universally respected. And I saw that respect
among fighters. You know, people who aren't familiar with the
fight world, they might be surprised to see it, but
you know, sure when they're in the cage or the ring,
they're gonna pummel each other, That's that's what they're doing.
But outside of that, you know, they're shaking hands, hugging
(34:08):
each other. Again, Bobby and one other fighter told me
it was crazy. He would tell me how to you know,
do dirty moves when when a ref wasn't looking in
the boxing ring, and the next second he'd be asked me,
if Jesus has saved my life?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You know?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Is he give it to you? So?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know?
Speaker 5 (34:24):
But that's that's the dichotomy here, and that is what
was really fascinating.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
And it really is a true community.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
It is.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And when I was in England hosting for soft REP,
we did the sas Special Air Service Special Operations versus
Navy Seals. Yeah, and similar. There was a boxing event
and we got to go to this gym called the
Peacock Gym over in London. Literally it just gave the
sense of a home and a training because they had
a grill and a kitchen and two ladies in the
(34:53):
back saying what would you like to eat?
Speaker 4 (34:55):
How you want some eggs? What you want?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
You know, you want some Bengals and some hash or
what you know, and they're just feeding you there. You're
working out there. It's like they're like, well, let's not
let the fighter go too far away from the gym.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Yeah, And the military aspect is interesting. In the opening
scene of my book, it's a fight and it's it's
a long scene where we is we see Bobby in
an underground fight somewhere in the Northeast. I don't put
city names as requested, but it was. It was in
an autobody shop and he was fighting a former marine,
(35:28):
and this former Marine had been introduced to barre knuckle
boxing while in training in California around San Diego.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, yeah, the CPA, that's right.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yeah, I'm just I'm not trying to give away anything.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
No, sorry, I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think you're great, dude. I think this is a
great book. I should go check this out. Guys, thank you.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
But he was at the time, he was a Marine
and in training and got introduced to baron knuckle boxing
through his military friends, and then did tours overseas, left
the military, you know, had some PTSD issues, was homeless
for a while, got straight as you as you point out,
(36:08):
became a CPA, doing taxes, became a father, you know,
would like subscribe to CPA monthly. But he loved that
he missed he missed the camaraderie. It was hard for
him to transition from the military brotherhood and fraternity in
that world into civilian life. He would talk about just
(36:29):
going to a costco and seeing walls and walls of
anti septic stuff, and it just kind of weirded him out.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And people would thank him for.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
Their service, but they wouldn't really understand anything what he
had done. He was just really kind of a drift.
But he reconnected with a sense of fraternity.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
In the bare knuckle community.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
So he was doing fighting boxing, got asked if he
wanted to join some bare knuckle fights, and he said
he just really liked the fraternal aspect. So you have
a father, a CP hey who is taking on a
bare knuckle match.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Isn't he the money? But he was up against Bobby
Gunn and he just ended he liked the brotherhood of it,
which is something he had missed from the military. And
that's the opening scene.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Of the book.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, I love it, and it talks about like, you
know how he was trained to see and everybody in
the marine has two jobs, right, I love that and
say that it's like there's two jobs in the Marine
Corps'm gonna slip it out there. One is the job
you're doing and the other is to kill yep. And
so you have a CPA Marine Corps killer who has
(37:34):
to transition from that life cycle and go to a
civilian life cycle. And he found his outlet with in
the gym and with Bobby and throwing fists and you know,
you know, working out. Really, the workout is ninety percent
of the battle. The staying in shape, the cardio, the eating.
Trying to eat right. Oh, you know how hard it
is to He tried to eat a banana after I
(37:55):
work out. Yeah, no, gotta find it.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I'm just saying.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
There are multiple other fighters I discussed in the book
who also had experience in the military, and there really
was an overlap. You know, Obviously it's a it's a
familiarity with violence when necessary, but but it's also I
think bigger than that. What I saw was was this
(38:21):
brotherhood and this community and this discipline that that people
people liked and wanted to hold on to even after
their service.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Yeah. I like someone in the gym saying, Okay, here's
what we're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You're gonna do one minute of planks, and they're like, Radal,
put your butt down, And I'm like, you are literally
talking to me. He's literally saying it to me. It's
my butt that's in the air. He's like level out.
That's there's something about that, you know, And uh, I
just I just love it, and I love I love
your book. I love your personality. I love the fact
(38:54):
that you've got so much background working in other you know,
subscriptions like GQ or Rolling Stone. Probably esquired Men's Journal.
I think you even wrote an article about our buddy Brandon,
who is soft rep dot com Brandon web Right, I did,
what is that? Which article did you write about here?
Speaker 5 (39:14):
So I wrote a feature story profile of soft rep
founder Brandon web for Min's Journal magazine. The story is
called Navy Seal Inc. And I went out to visit Brandon.
I flew out from New York. I was aware of
soft Rep. I liked the coverage y'all were doing, you know.
(39:34):
I liked that it was run by veterans and inside
intel and information on things that were happening around the world.
I thought it was a really smart approach in the
news was fantastic. I met up with Brandon and went
out to California, where he would fly in the San
Diego area. Had a private hangar with some former seals
(39:55):
who had done well in the private sector. They would
fly these old decommission YAK fifty two planes they'd gotten
from the Russians in aerial dogfights. I mean, this is
legit top gun training territory. In fact, I met through Brandon.
The guy had a hangar who was the original top
gun instructor nearby. So Brandon had this kick ass hangar.
(40:18):
These guys all did where it was literally if you
watched Top Gun, the latest one at the end, they're
kind of working on the plane. That's like what these
things are. And it had a little shower, little kitchenette,
little bed, and then just this giant open bay door
looking out on the runway in skies. And I went
out with these guys and it went flying.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
They put me in the back. One guy was.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
A Southwest Airlines pilot off Tilly. A couple of them
I'd just come out of the top gun school. There
was Brandon, there were a couple other ex Navy seals.
These guys were pulling GE's. You know, I had no idea.
I'd just gotten off a plane from New York and
went up with these guys and doing a dog fights.
I mean, you know, really pulling serious cheese, like yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Like shooting the watch.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Do you like like you know, banking and like just
just like you're just doing circles.
Speaker 5 (41:09):
Yeah, you know, total inverted. My balls were up in
my throat somewhere.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Relations Oh, I hate that.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (41:19):
And it was just incredible and uh, you know, went
up with Brandon and then that night. It was really
fun because these guys would the sun would be setting
and they would have it, you know, a little catered meal.
They'd break out some you know, whiskey and drinks and
cigars and then guys just trading these crazy ass war
stories and bullshitting into the night. And it was really fun.
(41:42):
And so I got a peek at at Brandon's life,
his own incredible story. He has an very interesting wayship with.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
His father as well.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
I know, Yep has overcome a lot of adversity and
you know a lot of different things and clearly done
very well. And you know as a hyper instructor in
the Seals and then now with Soft Rep and his
business ventures. And then yeah, another time I met up
with Brandon and New York in the city where he
would go work out, and I think he was kind
(42:12):
of fucking with me. He took me out with his uh,
a couple other buddies, of his where they would do swimming,
and they would they would swim and then get out
and do push ups, swim, get out to push ups,
and he's like, yea, why don't you guys, why don't
you hang with us?
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I did hang with them.
Speaker 5 (42:26):
I was the last guy, but I didn't I didn't quit.
And I think we kind of bond bonded over that.
But yeah, brand Brandon.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Swim a lap and then do push ups or swim
swim lap or like back and forth.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
It got a little club yep. So I got a
little hazy, to be honest.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
And this is before I went to work one morning
at Men's Journal in Manhattan.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
But hees n y club right off of Central Park South.
You know, I don't know. It was a long ass pool,
is all I remember.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
And we were swimming and we were getting out and
doing push ups, and then after George we hit the
sauna and I think we even did that. We did
some weights after that. It's getting a taste of the
daily regimen, but yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
It was fun.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
I had a lot of fun hanging with Brandon. And
it's amazing what you guys are are still rolling with here.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
And I love all over your show. Yeah, thank you.
He's he is great to hang with. You know, there's
lots of stories traveling with him. He's a great dude.
And again, I love that he loves me to keep
me doing this. It's such an honor too. And I
get to interview you and and all sorts of other
rock stars that come through my life, and I get
to soak up some of your valor, and then I
get this. I've got so much valor from all sorts
(43:37):
of different people in me right now, it's not even funny.
Speaker 4 (43:39):
Mine. Man.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I can help you run a va. I can help
you write a book about bare knuckle boxing. Now what
else do you want me to cook a grilled cheese?
Speaker 4 (43:49):
No? I love it.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
And and again I haven't grabbed a book so many
times while I've talked to an author or my guest.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
Your book? This cover is it? Is it black Stone?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (44:01):
Man?
Speaker 5 (44:02):
Yeah, availed on it it Amazon anywhere. But it looks fantastic.
They did a really good job with design. My agent
Shane Sellerno and Ryan Coleman at Story Factory were really
instrumental in the look and feelings. Well, but it's yeah. Look,
I mean, Bobby Gunn is a fascinating life from you know,
fighting grown men in parking lots at age eleven to
(44:25):
becoming a pro boxer, then leaving pro boxing at thirty,
just disillusioned with it. His mother had died, he got married,
he wanted a different life. For ten years, he just
fought solely in the underground and became a champion in
the illegal underground circuit of barre knuckle boxing. I've got
all these stories across the country of him fighting at
(44:49):
age forty.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
It just smells like cbgbis for some reason. I don't
know why. You know what I'm saying. It's like, you know,
it's just that whole time frame.
Speaker 5 (44:56):
Yeah, we've got there. There's great photos throughout. So I
was with him for years. I was taking pictures. I
got amazing vintage photos from Gun and other people as
well that we included. But at age forty he goes
back to pro boxing and fights some real serious contenders.
Thomas Adamack Roy Jones.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
Junior brought Roy Jones, Yeah, and Roy.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
Jones was fascinating. So Roy Joints came up in Gulf Coast, Florida,
and his dad was into dogfighting.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
That I know.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
You guys watching May not be able to see the
best of it. Go get this book that that dude
is yoke man.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
He is.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
He was you know, he was huge. He was huge.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
I mean the guy he's just so tight.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, and you know.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
And he fought Roy Jones Junior and all these guys
were fascinated by his his seventy three and oh record
in Bare Knuckle Box.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
He became a legend. You can you can YouTube him.
Speaker 5 (45:51):
There are songs about Bobby Gunn. I mean, he's almost
like this legendary ghost figure, especially before the internet. You know,
when he was doing this stuff, it was just the
whisper of this guy. And he would come into town
like a gunslinger and take down the local tough, take
the money, and he disappear.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
But you know, ro Joy's Junior was fascinated with that.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
He had grown up with a father who fought dogs,
dog fighting, and he knew the blood support at the
cock fighting and he respected gun. A lot of these
guys respected Gun for his ability to fight Baron uncle.
And it's just an incredible life story.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Yeah, I'm really happy to have had you on the
show today. It's been a really great time. And you know,
I know I've had you for you know, a good
little while today, and so I think I'll just kind
of leave it on this positive note and just say
that you're always welcome back on the show anytime you
have something to say or want to talk about it.
You know, if you want to talk about, you know,
the article of you writing about Tyson Fury, you know,
(46:46):
or if you want to talk about all these different things.
You guys can go out and find all sorts of
articles that Stayton has written. Just go take a look.
Type in his name.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
You'll find some Rolling Stones, Men's Journal, Esquire Stock or
so many. Yeah, seeing him.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Thank you so much. This has been so much fun.
I love your show. Thank you for having me. It's
been real pleasure, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
And from all of us here at soft Rep mafiasoft
rep dot com. You know that's my hashtag right there, soaye,
you know, we say thanks for being on the show,
thanks for being a friend of the program, and you're
always welcome back anytime, Stateton, So thanks again. And on
behalf of Styton and his book Bare Knuckle, the Bobby
(47:30):
gunn seventy three and Oh Undefeated, A Dad, A Dream,
A fight like You've never seen. By stateon Bonner. I
hope you get used to hearing your name all the
time like that, sir, so thank you for being on
the show.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
I loved it well. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And to my listener and viewer out there again, go
check out the merch We really appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
And check out our book club and we're going to
try to get that book right into that. And on
behalf of Brandon Webb, I'm gonna say peace.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
You've been listening to surf Red Radio
Mute from us.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're
listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military Nails on straight
Talk with the guys in the community.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to another awesome episode of soft Rep Radio. I'm
your host, Rad and today I have a very special guest.
But before I introduce him, I want to talk to
you about our merch shop. Go check it out. It's
at soft reap dot com. Check out our merchandise. We
have branded equipment and shirts and things with our logo
on it. And you guys have been supporting us so much.
That's what keeps the fireplace flickering, so keep it up.
(00:58):
We really appreciate you. I also want to mention soft
rep dot com forward slash book hyphen Club. You know
it and if you don't, it's book hyphen Club at
soft rep dot com. Go check out all the latest
books that we've been curating for you to read and enjoy.
And we're also gonna try to get this next book,
this next author in the book club. And without further ado,
(01:18):
I want to welcome Styton Bonner who authored Bare Knuckle
and this is his first book, and we're gonna welcome
you to soft Rep. Welcome, great to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Thanks for having me so much.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
You know, I have the book here, Bare Knuckle, Bobby
Gunn seventy three and Oh Undefeated, A Dad, a dream,
a fight like you've never seen Styton Bonner.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
What a great feeling book. Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I've had a lot of books come through my hand. Okay,
and there's a field. Do you know that there's a
feel to this book and it just feels good.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I'm glad to hear it.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh okay to me, yeah it does. It has a nice,
nice feel too it some of them are slick. Someone
just feels like a little gritty, you know. It feels
like where it comes from, you know. I box well, okay,
all right. My business partner says.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
The bag doesn't hit back to me all the time.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I'm like, you're right, you're right, you're right. So I
call a lot of fights. I sit around the ring.
I have a microphone. I'll call you from the red corner,
the blue corner.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
You know. I love to do it.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And when I was told that you want to come
onto our show and talk about Bare Knuckle, I was like, ouch,
well let's go. Welcome to the show. Glad to be here,
So you decided to go into the underground of the
Russian boxing underground in New York City with gun over here,
(02:37):
Bobby Gunn, I was gonna have to hold it up again.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
That dude has got a mug. Bro.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Yeah, he's a tough guy. Literally no cartilage left in
his nose. You'll give you the profile and compress it
totally flat bare knuckle.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I was so this morning. I was talking to my coach,
coach Demetrius at my gym at Legends. I was like, Hey, Coach,
I'm gonna go interview this guy about bare knuckle boxing.
He's like, Bro, that's the first thing he says, and
he's pro.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
He's pro.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
He's going he's twenty eight years old, wanting't it and
he's like, all it takes is won two punches with nothing,
just to rip you open.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Yeah, it's pretty fascinating and we'll get into the science
of it and the sport of it. It's completely different from boxing,
which is you know, you know, technical in some ways,
it's a longer lasting fight. With boxing, bare knuckles all
about speed and precision. You're trying to take down someone
very quickly with surgical strikes, but yeah, you know, to
(03:33):
back it up, Bobby Gunn to me was just a
fascinating person.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
You know.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
He was a father who was fighting in these underground,
mob backed bare knuckle matches to put his seven year
old daughter through private school. That story alone stood out
to me, and I was like, who is this guy?
So I was working as an editor in New York
City at GQ magazine writer there and saw a story
(04:00):
in twenty eleven about the first sanctioned bare knuckle fight
in US history in one hundred and twenty years, happening
on a Native American reservation in Arizona because they were
able to do it in tribal law outside of US
state jurisdiction. The winner of that fight was a guy,
Bobby Gunn, And you know, I was like, who is
this guy? What is this thing? I looked him up
(04:23):
on Facebook. He was right across the river in Hackensack,
New Jersey. I messaged him. He's like, yeah, bro, come
on over. So I went out and went to this
you know, gym Iken Randy's is actually in Patterson, New Jersey,
which this is not you know, your Bally's fitness. This
was in a you know, pretty tough neighborhood. You had
(04:45):
to go through a chain leak fence, past barking pit
bulls basically into this basement and it was a beautiful
place though. I mean it was really all dumb with love.
These guys in the neighborhood who were you know, trying
to you know, improve themselves through sport, and we're really dedicated,
a lot of great trainers, a lot of good young kids.
But man, this was you know, just sweat and blood.
(05:07):
The place just like a sauna of sweat and met
Bobby gun Bobby Gunn was this hulking goliath, you know, jeans, sneakers,
you know, cranking, just drinking a dunkin Donuts coffee, no
water and this in like a black you know, T
shirt and that's.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
How he's healthy.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, that's how he rolls.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
He's got his like cell phone holster on his belt
and it's just like because he just wakes up, dropped
his daughter at school to private school, before he goes
doing asphalt work. He would hit this gym and he
had a son with him too, because the son was
working with him, and you know, it was fascinating because
he also had this tiny little dog named Max, little
(05:50):
pitbull terrier that he would take with him. I'm sorry,
French bulldog he had with him, just the sweetest little dog.
He'd put his little water bowl out for him by
the you know, by the boxing ring, and you know,
put him, give him some treats, and then this guy
would step in the ring and just you know, savagely
go to town on other people. I saw him training in
(06:13):
a World War One gas mask, and I was just like,
who is this guy? He pops it off, It's like, Hi,
I'm Bobby Gunn. He was doing that to you know,
simulate training at altitude basically, so less oxygen. But it
was just an amazing introduction to this guy. And I
was instantly fascinated.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It was what you were looking for. He was what
you were hoping he would be. You're like, this is it.
This is who I.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Want to write about, and I'm going to follow you around.
And you did. You tailed him right like as a friend.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Oh yeah, So I spent years with him, you know,
so again, I was.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Living and working in New York at GQ. Then I
was at Rolling Stone as an editor. I spent years
with him, going all over to fights. He was still
in pro boxing. You know, he's still in pro boxing
as well champion fighter. But really what was fascinating what
you see at these boxing gyms is there's really an
underground world to the fight world in both pro boxing
(07:10):
and MMA. Because at this gym there was an old
school phone sitting on a desk about the size of
a toaster, and it was a landline phone, and there
would be a little message board next to it and
if someone in the underground or you know, a lot
of these were mob backed matches, whether it was Irish Mob,
Russian Mob, all these different factions. You know, it's like
(07:31):
blood sports, I mean, just like dog fighting, cockfighting. They
had this in Chinatown as well, where Bobby fought and
he was usually backed by the Irish Mob. Is their
guy to basically, you know, fun nights out. This would
be the entertainment and they would call and leave a
message for him. You know, Bobby Gunn called this number,
we have a fight for you, and that's how he
(07:52):
would get word to enter one of these underground matches.
But these these boxing gems were a lot of times
feeder systems as well. It was kind of this secret
underground world that existed just below the surface. Hey, you
want some quick cash on the side, there's going to
be a bare knuckle opportunity for you. And that's really
that's why Gun did it, you know, for the money,
(08:13):
and that's why a lot of other pro boxers and
MMA fighters I spoke with did as well.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
What kind of money are we talking about here?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I mean, I have an idea, I've read a little
bit of the book, But what tell me what kind
of money we're talking about that he's willing to put
his brain cells up against to put his kid through school, right,
because he's got it.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
He's got a job as asphalt.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
So he grew up paving, left school at third grade
and it's been working night and day his whole life.
And he does that all day. But yeah, when the
pro boxing career fizzled and he started taking on these
underground matches, it's all about cash, and it's quick cash,
you know. I mean a lot of these guys have
been burned by promoters, different factions that run boxing, had
(08:55):
gotten stiffed, gotten lowballed, you know. He had He had
fought as a trainer for Carl King it was Don
King's son, and had some pretty you know, atrocious experiences
in his pro boxing career. He was worried about the atmosphere.
It was a dangerous atmosphere going into these underground matches obviously,
where you have weapons and organized criminals and things of
(09:16):
you know, bikers and things of this nature. But you know,
there was a basic code in place and honors system.
And he did say, you know, the blood was red,
the cash was green. I mean, I always got paid
on time. I mean, honestly, at the matches would vary
in terms of prize money. I'd say an average that
I heard over and over it was around ten thousand dollars. Now,
(09:38):
Bobby Gunn doesn't have ten thousand dollars in his pocket
doing asphalt work. But what he would do is a
couple of things. A lot of times he would be
staked or backed by the Irish mob and they would
have a place in Hell's Kitchen in New York. You
go through this Irish bar, you know, down a back door,
down some stairs and there's a fight circuit there, and
(09:59):
you know, they he would stake money behind him. He
would also gather money from friends and families. Yeah, and
it was a base. It was just a very basic
proposition and he would put in his own cash. But
you bet on me, I'll double your money. That's really it.
And he always came through right.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
It's like, you want your money, then you bet on me, Bro,
I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
The most money he ever won collectively in a bare
knockle match wasn't a Russian mob fight in sheep, said
Bay in Outer Brooklyn, and that was a fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Person, that's gooft. How long did that take?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
It was a long time.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
So in that fight again, he told me he was
training at Iken Randy's gym in Patterson, New Jersey, said,
a couple of gentlemen from the Russian Mob, you know,
left a message. They arranged me at a nearby Starbucks.
He met with them. They explained the terms. The Russian
Mob was looking to have an event. Pro box combat
(10:57):
sports are very popular in Russian and gneral and they
even have their own disciplines. Again, Bobby had definitely had
a reputation at this point up and down the Eastern Seaboard,
particularly in New York City and across the country. And
they basically said, hey, we want to bring in somebody
for you to fight. You'll be the main card on
(11:19):
this Evening's Entertainment and Bobby agreed and he went there
and he had a little bit of a crew and
they had put together some cash and it was a
big purse ultimately, you know, I think they put in
twenty five total. And it was a long fight. I mean,
the guy they brought in from Russia could not speak English.
It was a slightly different I mean, the rules of
bar knuckle boxing are simple, and you can now see it.
(11:42):
The guys I was trailing, Bobby and David Feldman. Feldman
has literally created the bar Knockle Fighting Championship, which has events.
You can look them up online, you can watch them
on pay per view. There's going to be a big
one Knucklemania in Los Angeles in April.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I will be there.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Become a three hundred twelve million dollar sport now and
it's growing. These guys were doing this underground at that time.
But the rules are simple. At stand up boxing. You know,
it's just standing up hitting each other. Just no gloves obviously,
so it's not it's not grappling, it's not getting you
down on the floor, you know, it's not. Also, really,
these these these bouts would sometimes go rough and tumble,
(12:22):
which means all rules are off.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I'm gonna gouge your eye, gonna try to.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
To bite your nose off, but those are that's that's
that's that's unusual, and that's really either happens out of
a desperation by one fighter and then everyone understands, Okay,
this has gone south and let's see what happens. Or
if it's like that from the beginning, the money is
usually bigger.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
But that that's a rarity.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
So most of these matches are governed by basic boxing rules,
no hitting below the belt.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Et cetera. It's just it's just right with no gloves.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
But Bobby Gunn went in with this understanding it would
be that kind of a but this guy was doing
a slightly different variation of you know, Russian bare knuckle
fighting and started again kind of doing more grappling, crazy rules.
Bobby just remembers him as being very hairy. Bobby says,
they walked in and it was people in evening where
(13:16):
and it was a nice dinner and event. And then
there was a space cleared out in this mansion and
out of Brooklyn for these guys to in a makeshift
ring go at each other Bobby put him down multiple times,
and you know, it was a fairly long fight by
bare knuckle standards. Usually these things just last a couple
of minutes tops, because again, if you don't have a
(13:37):
glove on, you know, glove is boxing is the war
of attrition, right, because it's these blunt, broad impacts that
you're you're hitting someone else with and you're wearing them down. Obviously,
there's a technical aspect as well bare knuckle boxing. I mean,
if you don't have a glove on, you don't want
to break your hands, so you're you're automatically pulling your
punch to a certain extent. Now, skin on skin. First off,
(14:02):
the first time I ever saw one of these, it's
the noise, you remember, it's like this wet slap. It's
a very different sound, and it really does grab your attention.
But also skin on skin contacts just bloodier. Now it
looks bad, But the flip side of that is because
you are pulling your own punch and you're hitting someone
(14:23):
with less force so you don't break your hand, it
actually reduces the impact and studies have shown this so
far reduces resulting concussions and CTE levels because you just
don't want to hit somebody as hard so you don't
break your hand. A great analogy is a sport of
rugby versus the sport of NFL football. NFL football. We
(14:44):
can all watch it on a Sunday afternoon with our kids.
It looks really sanitized. These guys are doing massive, massive
damage to each other, but you don't see it.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Rugby.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
It's a pretty violent sport to watch, but again, in
the long term, they're getting hit with much less face.
So when Bobby would go into these he had decades
of experience in the pro boxing ring, had a real
set of skills that most guys did not have. But
he also really knew from years of bar knuckle fighting
(15:14):
how to quickly take someone down, and a lot of
those are body shots, organ shots. Hit someone in deliver,
go for the kidney. So he could, like with his
small hand as opposed to a much bigger boxing glove,
really kind of surgically strike and nowhere to hit you yeah,
on your internals, and it just drops guys, you know,
I mean well, his strategy would usually be to do
(15:36):
a little bit of cuts up top, get some blood
in their eyes. That typically takes the fight out of
a person, gets them a bit disoriented and then and
then drop them pretty quickly with a devastating, very technical,
very precise body shot. Bobby was doing that in this
Russian fight at this mobster's mansion in Outer Brooklyn, and
(15:57):
the guy was basically unconscious. There was one young gangster
in the crowd who kept yelling at the fighter, maybe
he had some money on the guy to get back up.
Bobby said he was done, and the kid pulled a gun,
his gun says, and you know, basically put it to
Bobby's head. And you know, everybody kind of freaked out, obviously.
(16:20):
And there was some older gentleman who was running the
organization there kind of the dawn of the Russian mob
They looked to him. He said, no, he fought a
good fight. Give this man his money. Bobby got fifty
grand in a brown paper bag and drove the hell
out of there.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Oh bro, But still, I mean, wow.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
Yeah, I mean, look he's got in the book. It's
just crazy. I recount so many stories. Yeah, I mean,
Bobby's life is like any unlike any life.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
You will ever come across. You know.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
He was born in nineteen seventy to Irish travelers. If
you've seen the film Snatched, the Guy Ritchie film. Yes,
Brad Pitt's character is an Irish traveler, so yes, these
are basically itinerant workers, as the name would imply.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Far and Away. Yeah, I hate to bring that up. Yeah,
I don't like your hat, Shannon. I don't like you. Yeah, yeah,
come on, I mean yeah, tell me you like my hat.
You know, it's like, exactly, don't like a hat, and
I don't like you.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Okay, it's not his sister, you know, but I mean
that whole that movie Far and Away was Irish travelers
coming into America picking out a job that they could get.
They just wanted a job, they just wanted to work.
And they're like, all right, well, let's fight then, a
bare knuckle fight. And I'm sitting in the position of
the old school style stance. You know, it's like he
(17:41):
just had it in his nature. Bobby Gunn is like,
let's go.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, you're absolutely correct.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
And before we get into that, you bring up a
point talking about Far and Away with Irish immigrants in
the nineteenth century. Look in the United States in the
eighteen hundreds, bare knuckle boxing was the most popular sport
in the country. Alongside horse racing in baseball. I did
not know any of this until I started doing research
(18:09):
for the book, and we include the history of this
in the book. But it's fascinating. I mean, you know,
it was always a means for immigrants coming to the
country to you know, make money. It's obviously you don't
do this unless you need cash pretty desperately, but also
to move themselves up in society. I recount a story
(18:31):
the Martin Scorsese film Gangs of New York. Daniel da
Lewis's character Bill, a butcher based on a real life
immigrant who was also a champion bare knuckle boxer, and
he was able to parlay that into political clout and
that fame in the ring. There was several instances. There
was Tom Mullino, who was an enslaved person in Virginia
(18:54):
who became renowned as a bare knuckle boxer on plantation bouts,
made so much money his owner freedom. He then made
his way to New York and then to England where
he fought bare knuckle champions over there. And so, you know,
it was a sport that was always a means for
people in the most desperate situations to pull themselves up.
(19:18):
The most famous person, the lebron of the eighteen hundreds
was this guy, John L. Sullivan, and it is the
classic image of a you know, mustachioed, shirtless you know,
a Bronnie Musseley guy. And he was the son of
an Irish plumber who became renowned for his bare knuckle
(19:40):
boxing skills. Traveled the country. You know, his breakfast was
like eating a dozen raw oysters and drinking whiskey. He
would travel down to town and it was like a game.
You know, anybody who can beat me, come on up.
And he took them all down, you know, went to
the White House to visit day. Roosevelt traveled in the
you know, wild Bill Hoocock's West Show, Wild West Show,
(20:03):
so you know, really was was a headliner. But what's
fascinating is even back then, in his final fight New Orleans, Baron,
uncle boxing was starting to become more and more unseemly,
and you know, especially amid you know Christian Protestant like yeah, taboo,
and it was just seen as bloody and gambling was
always a central part of this. So in his final fight,
(20:26):
where he took on an opponent outside, it was a
mysterious location people took a train at the last minute
out of New Orleans and they were dodging authorities and
it was this epic epic, you know, seventy something round
about and he won, and he won, and his opponent,
Jake Corraine great great grandson, actually ended up heading up
(20:48):
Special Operations Forces years later. It was a seal and
just just fascinating history of these guys. But that's when
the sport really went underground. Boxing again rose up. Was
not as bloody, you know, gambling was still happening, but
just not so ostentatiously. And the you could have you
(21:09):
can make more money as a promoter because bare knuckle
was usually a shorter duration except for some of these
crazy bouts back then, so it became a more sanitized version.
But what's face fascinating about boxing in general is, you know,
one boxing commissioner told me, it's a billion dollar sport
run like a five and dime store. There's no NFL,
there's no MLB, NBA, It's run by these state boxing commissions.
(21:33):
So you know, there still is a lot of independence
and you know, different rules throughout and and that's when
you know bare knuckle really went underground, and you just
had to know to get the invite to go to
one of these things, and that's where where Bobby Gunn
became a champion.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
You know, speaking of Snatch previously, you know with the
Brad Pitt character, he seems to always kind of tailored
himself towards that scrapper fighter, like with the movie Fight Club.
You know, it's like straight up bare knuckle. He's just
taking a drag, flexing his risbs and just right back
to punching each other.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
It's like yeah, so yeah, and again taking it back
to Snatch. So those are Irish travelers and that's what.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Bobby Gunn is.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
So you always think of the Irish travelers, especially aspected
in that film, as being overseas in Ireland, but there
is a large faction. It's as the numbers aren't exactly
known here in the United States. It's estimated to be
about ten thousand, but these are Irish travelers who live
and work across the country. They tend to be located
more heavily in certain areas in Mississippi, South Carolina, New Jersey.
(22:41):
Outside of Fort Worth, Texas, there's a large community, but
basically it's a community that's very tight knit. They even
have their own language which Bobby would slip into quite
often with other people, can't. And the joke is you
can't understand us, but it's called can't. And they tend
to rever two things, which is religion and fighting. I mean,
(23:03):
you know, it's a close knit community. They are raised.
I met a priest who caters to the community in
Memphis and he gave me a lot of insight for
the book. And you know, they're just raised in a
very religious, old school religious way. And you know, Bobby
before every fight would literally lie prostrate on the ground
praying to God.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
You know.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
He didn't drink, no tattoos, no cigarettes, nothing like that,
you know. But the other part was fighting. These were
people who they would pull their children out of school,
usually around the middle school age, because they did not
want them to assimilate, typically with broader culture. And it's
in their culture and it's what Bobby was raised doing
(23:45):
to work as an itinerant tradesman. It was a derogatory
term that was used, but you know, Tinker was referring
to travelers and that's those were traveling people in Ireland,
you know, showing little trinkets in things towns to town.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
So if you tinker on something.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, and like doing like metal doing like metal work.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Again, it's a derogatory term for the community, as so
is gypsy, but these were all terms that were referencing
the traveling the traveling communities they would do like metalsmithing
and things like that, and that's what they do today.
It's it's usually more of like asphalt coding and and
you know, working on barns and literally going door to
(24:25):
door and knocking. They do have a reputation for taking
advantage of people, as I report in the book based
on my interviews and reporting, it absolutely is warranted in
several cases, and you can see this online. But I
do think it's overblown and it's unfair how this entire
community has been, you know, given that broad paint paint stroke.
(24:46):
Bobby Gunn is a very upstanding person in his business
dealings that I've seen, and you know, it's as has
done right and a lot of I think they're unfairly
maligned in that way, but it is. It is itinerant
work and that's what he was raised doing. But they
also gather in these groups and they fight. His father
was before there was WWE. He was known as Black
(25:07):
Bart and he would travel in these early early wrestling communities.
Is the heel these guys would be in like some
you know van traveling city in the city.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
You know, a touring band dude trying to get there,
you know.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, playing in your local high school gym.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
They would have razor blades and do the cuts all that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
We have a gig at the hair salon, guys. Yeah,
a gig's a gig, bro It's one hundred and fifty bucks. Yeah,
so bring my five thousand dollars amps and all my
stuff to the show that I yes, because it's a gig, right,
just to show the craft, to be a part of
the art, to just be able to like continue and
put it out there. You know, like a like a
theater in back in the day where they'd have wagons
(25:49):
that roll through town and they'd set up at theater
and people come pay a penny or pence or whatever
to sit down and watch with this theatrical I mean,
really just to give the craft.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
I love it. Yeah, good job, Bobby Gunn, you know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Good job, Well, Bobby grew up in that so his
father stops doing that. When when Bobby was born and
took him on the road with him, he left school
at third grade. It's just hard to go to school
and it wasn't really taking if they were always In.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Your book you talk about how you know, I'll give
a little bit out there. It talks about how you
know he was eleven and his dad's waking him up
because he's already been boxing as a young man, like
training as a boxer. His dads, I get up and
go pumel these guys out in the parking lot for me,
will you because they don't think they can. They think
they can be a probably an eleven year old. I
got this kid that could kick ass, Like, yeah, bring
him out here. He's like, okay, fifty bucks, who knows?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Yeah, you know. But Bobby was already thrown into the
ring by his dad.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
One hundred percent. So Bobby from birth was trained in
pro boxing. His goal was to be an Olympic boxer.
But simultaneously the dad started training him in the art
of bare nuncle boxing as a child. And this was
a tough, tough kid. They were living in motor courts,
you know, when they weren't on the road going campground
(27:05):
to campground looking for work.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
They're living in.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Motor courts on Lundy Lane on the outskirts Niagara Falls,
which was a tough area. You know, you imagine a
motor court with criminals, prostitutes, that whole thing. Bobby at
eleven years old. One night, he was sleeping on their
shag carpet floor his father. It was not unusual for
his father to go out drinking all night, then be
up at five in the morning and going out to work.
(27:28):
But the dad woke him up in the middle of
the night. Just remembered his cigarette glowing in the dark.
His mom was asleep on the motel bed, and the
dad said, get up, put your clothes on. I've got
a guy out here. You got to beat him. And Bobby,
you know, without questioning it, didn't, put on his T
shirt and jeans, walked outside. It was a grown man
(27:49):
that Robert Gunn had brought home from the bar. There
was a crowd of people watching the guy's buddies along
with some prostitutes and various hangers.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
On and the you know, the guy. It basically kind
of looked at him.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
I was like, what the fuck, this is a kid
and gun just took him out straight to the face. Yeah,
and then you know, the guy started throwing some haymakers
and he took him down pretty quickly. And his father
pocketed one hundred dollars.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
So this is.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Something that he would repeatedly do, which is quick cash.
You know, he'd be like all the guys. I talked
to his father about this. Father still alive and interviewed
him multiple times for the book. He's like, yeah, you know,
I just I would bring home ringers. I knew my
son could take him out. Now, this is obviously an
abusive situation. I mean, this is not a healthy one.
(28:40):
And you know, Bobby is interesting. I mean because his
father trained him in these really brutal ways of fighting.
In addition to bare knuckle, he taught him what's known
as rough and tumble, which I mentioned earlier, and that's
those are rules if it's just a dirty street fight,
you know, how to really use any means necessary to
take another person down. And it's it's fairly her horrific.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Way to fight.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
But Bobby was trained this way, and his father will
say it too. He's like, look, I knew he was
entering a tough world. I was just wanting to forge
him as a weapon. And even Bobby Gunn he'll be like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
This sounds awful, but I understand my dad, and that's
that's what he was raising me to do, and that's
that was just his childhood.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah, he's not feeling any like, oh I was overwhelmed.
He's not saying Dad didn't know that I couldn't do that.
Dad wasn't throwing him to the wolves.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
He he was like, come to my son. Let me
introduce you to my child that I got here. And
he's going to kick your ass.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I mean, look, and you.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Don't think so, oh you're drunk, old man, You're a kid,
can't beat me. He's like, yeah, I haven't drunk, old man,
aren't I I don't know. I'm just assuming, right, Yeah,
I'm just talking shit, you know. Yeah, no, how would
you get your yeah, how would you get a fight going?
Speaker 4 (29:53):
You know? You got to smoke the bear.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Oh yeah, Like the dad would definitely be on the
sideline talking massive shit like you, Yeah, my son's going
to kick your ass and like you call that, you
call that a fight? I mean that's something else. Gun
recounts as his dad was just a world class.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Eleven year old right now, kicked your ass right now? Yeah,
and the son's back there like, oh I got to
wake up.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Yeah, Yeah, that was it. That was it exactly.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
So, I mean, honestly, all of those guys were in
for a world of pain and love.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
They would never know what was gonna hit them.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
You know, they're coming in two in the morning, drunk,
just you know, whatever will pop this kid and this
They have no idea that they're coming up against the
terminator and this eleven year old kid just takes him down.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
How big was he at eleven? Do you think how tall?
How tall is Bobby?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (30:40):
You know, he's not huge.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
I mean he's around you know, five to eleven now, uh,
and he'll he'll mean he's a jacked five eleven.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I mean he is thick and muscular.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
But he will say back then, as he calls himself, quote,
I was an opie looking motherfucker.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
I mean he was like, I think he's a skinny kid.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Probably helped him win.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Yeah, he was a skinny eleven year oh kid. You know.
Speaker 5 (31:00):
But again, the father, he was already training around Canada.
His mother was American, his father was Canadian, so he
has dual citizenship. But he was training as a pro
boxer at that young age and really knew his stuff,
so he was a lethal weapon. But he's a skinny
little kid.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Right, but he just knew. He just knew. He just
picked it up.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
There's kids in my gym right now that I look
at and I'm like, man, how come I wasn't like
thirteen focused on boxing? I wish I would have been.
I was forty five when I got introduced to the
gym lifestyle. I was always into boxing and for years,
but I was like, oh, one day, I'll get in
the gym.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
One day, one day, one day, one day, one day.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
And then I took that step and I made it
that day, and now I don't know why I can't
go without it.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Absolutely. I mean, it's a great way to focus your mind,
your body, your discipline as a as a young person.
And that's something I saw not only in guns life fighting.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It's just a hard upbringing.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
He was ostracized because his father was from one plan
of travelers, his mother from another. He was a bit
of an outsider, never really welcomed by broader family and community,
and lonely had just a really hard hard, itinerant background
and upbringing, and he really focused on the boxing and
(32:19):
the gym and his trainers and the managers, and you know,
that was really his productive outlet, his creative outlet in
his life, and I think it really did save him.
And it just it's it's just an integral part of
who he is.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, gyms can save lives. An there's a coach in
there that can just see something in that kid and
just be like, hey, Kime.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Here, yeah, absolutely do this, let me see that out
of you.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And next thing, you know, you're like, I have a
purpose and it's the gym and the gym, and I
see kids cleaning up the gym after Jim. You know,
they're like, hey, I'm just helping out, just making sure
things are taken care of, helping the coach put stuff
away because he's holding mits and he's teaching us all
this stuff he doesn't really have. He doesn't want to
have to vacuum or whatever.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Yeah. Yeah, that's it exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
And it's it's part of the training too, right, That's
part of that discipline, getting kids to help with cleanup
and all of that. And there's you know, every gym
I went to, you know, and Gun would take literally
a baseball bat to some of these and he had
you know, people had tried to jack him in these
some of these neighborhoods. And you know, whether it was
Philadelphia and you're going into a walk up and it's
literally an apartment that has become a makeshift gym for
(33:24):
the community because they don't have a gym, but they
needed that space. All of these places that there was
a lot of crime. These were hard, hard areas. Again,
Gun had a baseball bat with him for a reason.
I never saw any problem personally. I always saw nothing
but respect because these these gyms are community hubs and
a lot of neighborhoods and they're a place where young people,
(33:47):
all people can go and really focus and improve themselves.
And that was universally respected. And I saw that respect
among fighters. You know, people who aren't familiar with the
fight world, they might be surprised to see it, but
you know, sure when they're in the cage or the ring,
they're gonna pummel each other, That's that's what they're doing.
But outside of that, you know, they're shaking hands, hugging
(34:08):
each other. Again, Bobby and one other fighter told me
it was crazy. He would tell me how to you know,
do dirty moves when when a ref wasn't looking in
the boxing ring, and the next second he'd be asked me,
if Jesus has saved my life?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
You know?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Is he give it to you? So?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
You know?
Speaker 5 (34:24):
But that's that's the dichotomy here, and that is what
was really fascinating.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
And it really is a true community.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
It is.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And when I was in England hosting for soft REP,
we did the sas Special Air Service Special Operations versus
Navy Seals. Yeah, and similar. There was a boxing event
and we got to go to this gym called the
Peacock Gym over in London. Literally it just gave the
sense of a home and a training because they had
a grill and a kitchen and two ladies in the
(34:53):
back saying what would you like to eat?
Speaker 4 (34:55):
How you want some eggs? What you want?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
You know, you want some Bengals and some hash or
what you know, and they're just feeding you there. You're
working out there. It's like they're like, well, let's not
let the fighter go too far away from the gym.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Yeah, And the military aspect is interesting. In the opening
scene of my book, it's a fight and it's it's
a long scene where we is we see Bobby in
an underground fight somewhere in the Northeast. I don't put
city names as requested, but it was. It was in
an autobody shop and he was fighting a former marine,
(35:28):
and this former Marine had been introduced to barre knuckle
boxing while in training in California around San Diego.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, yeah, the CPA, that's right.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yeah, I'm just I'm not trying to give away anything.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
No, sorry, I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think you're great, dude. I think this is a
great book. I should go check this out. Guys, thank you.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
But he was at the time, he was a Marine
and in training and got introduced to baron knuckle boxing
through his military friends, and then did tours overseas, left
the military, you know, had some PTSD issues, was homeless
for a while, got straight as you as you point out,
(36:08):
became a CPA, doing taxes, became a father, you know,
would like subscribe to CPA monthly. But he loved that
he missed he missed the camaraderie. It was hard for
him to transition from the military brotherhood and fraternity in
that world into civilian life. He would talk about just
(36:29):
going to a costco and seeing walls and walls of
anti septic stuff, and it just kind of weirded him out.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And people would thank him for.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
Their service, but they wouldn't really understand anything what he
had done. He was just really kind of a drift.
But he reconnected with a sense of fraternity.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
In the bare knuckle community.
Speaker 5 (36:47):
So he was doing fighting boxing, got asked if he
wanted to join some bare knuckle fights, and he said
he just really liked the fraternal aspect. So you have
a father, a CP hey who is taking on a
bare knuckle match.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Isn't he the money? But he was up against Bobby
Gunn and he just ended he liked the brotherhood of it,
which is something he had missed from the military. And
that's the opening scene.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Of the book.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, I love it, and it talks about like, you
know how he was trained to see and everybody in
the marine has two jobs, right, I love that and
say that it's like there's two jobs in the Marine
Corps'm gonna slip it out there. One is the job
you're doing and the other is to kill yep. And
so you have a CPA Marine Corps killer who has
(37:34):
to transition from that life cycle and go to a
civilian life cycle. And he found his outlet with in
the gym and with Bobby and throwing fists and you know,
you know, working out. Really, the workout is ninety percent
of the battle. The staying in shape, the cardio, the eating.
Trying to eat right. Oh, you know how hard it
is to He tried to eat a banana after I
(37:55):
work out. Yeah, no, gotta find it.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I'm just saying.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
There are multiple other fighters I discussed in the book
who also had experience in the military, and there really
was an overlap. You know, Obviously it's a it's a
familiarity with violence when necessary, but but it's also I
think bigger than that. What I saw was was this
(38:21):
brotherhood and this community and this discipline that that people
people liked and wanted to hold on to even after
their service.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Yeah. I like someone in the gym saying, Okay, here's
what we're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You're gonna do one minute of planks, and they're like, Radal,
put your butt down, And I'm like, you are literally
talking to me. He's literally saying it to me. It's
my butt that's in the air. He's like level out.
That's there's something about that, you know, And uh, I
just I just love it, and I love I love
your book. I love your personality. I love the fact
(38:54):
that you've got so much background working in other you know,
subscriptions like GQ or Rolling Stone. Probably esquired Men's Journal.
I think you even wrote an article about our buddy Brandon,
who is soft rep dot com Brandon web Right, I did,
what is that? Which article did you write about here?
Speaker 5 (39:14):
So I wrote a feature story profile of soft rep
founder Brandon web for Min's Journal magazine. The story is
called Navy Seal Inc. And I went out to visit Brandon.
I flew out from New York. I was aware of
soft Rep. I liked the coverage y'all were doing, you know.
(39:34):
I liked that it was run by veterans and inside
intel and information on things that were happening around the world.
I thought it was a really smart approach in the
news was fantastic. I met up with Brandon and went
out to California, where he would fly in the San
Diego area. Had a private hangar with some former seals
(39:55):
who had done well in the private sector. They would
fly these old decommission YAK fifty two planes they'd gotten
from the Russians in aerial dogfights. I mean, this is
legit top gun training territory. In fact, I met through Brandon.
The guy had a hangar who was the original top
gun instructor nearby. So Brandon had this kick ass hangar.
(40:18):
These guys all did where it was literally if you
watched Top Gun, the latest one at the end, they're
kind of working on the plane. That's like what these
things are. And it had a little shower, little kitchenette,
little bed, and then just this giant open bay door
looking out on the runway in skies. And I went
out with these guys and it went flying.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
They put me in the back. One guy was.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
A Southwest Airlines pilot off Tilly. A couple of them
I'd just come out of the top gun school. There
was Brandon, there were a couple other ex Navy seals.
These guys were pulling GE's. You know, I had no idea.
I'd just gotten off a plane from New York and
went up with these guys and doing a dog fights.
I mean, you know, really pulling serious cheese, like yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Like shooting the watch.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Do you like like you know, banking and like just
just like you're just doing circles.
Speaker 5 (41:09):
Yeah, you know, total inverted. My balls were up in
my throat somewhere.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Relations Oh, I hate that.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (41:19):
And it was just incredible and uh, you know, went
up with Brandon and then that night. It was really
fun because these guys would the sun would be setting
and they would have it, you know, a little catered meal.
They'd break out some you know, whiskey and drinks and
cigars and then guys just trading these crazy ass war
stories and bullshitting into the night. And it was really fun.
(41:42):
And so I got a peek at at Brandon's life,
his own incredible story. He has an very interesting wayship with.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
His father as well.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
I know, Yep has overcome a lot of adversity and
you know a lot of different things and clearly done
very well. And you know as a hyper instructor in
the Seals and then now with Soft Rep and his
business ventures. And then yeah, another time I met up
with Brandon and New York in the city where he
would go work out, and I think he was kind
(42:12):
of fucking with me. He took me out with his uh,
a couple other buddies, of his where they would do swimming,
and they would they would swim and then get out
and do push ups, swim, get out to push ups,
and he's like, yea, why don't you guys, why don't
you hang with us?
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I did hang with them.
Speaker 5 (42:26):
I was the last guy, but I didn't I didn't quit.
And I think we kind of bond bonded over that.
But yeah, brand Brandon.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Swim a lap and then do push ups or swim
swim lap or like back and forth.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
It got a little club yep. So I got a
little hazy, to be honest.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
And this is before I went to work one morning
at Men's Journal in Manhattan.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
But hees n y club right off of Central Park South.
You know, I don't know. It was a long ass pool,
is all I remember.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
And we were swimming and we were getting out and
doing push ups, and then after George we hit the
sauna and I think we even did that. We did
some weights after that. It's getting a taste of the
daily regimen, but yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
It was fun.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
I had a lot of fun hanging with Brandon. And
it's amazing what you guys are are still rolling with here.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
And I love all over your show. Yeah, thank you.
He's he is great to hang with. You know, there's
lots of stories traveling with him. He's a great dude.
And again, I love that he loves me to keep
me doing this. It's such an honor too. And I
get to interview you and and all sorts of other
rock stars that come through my life, and I get
to soak up some of your valor, and then I
get this. I've got so much valor from all sorts
(43:37):
of different people in me right now, it's not even funny.
Speaker 4 (43:39):
Mine. Man.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
I can help you run a va. I can help
you write a book about bare knuckle boxing. Now what
else do you want me to cook a grilled cheese?
Speaker 4 (43:49):
No? I love it.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
And and again I haven't grabbed a book so many
times while I've talked to an author or my guest.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
Your book? This cover is it? Is it black Stone?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (44:01):
Man?
Speaker 5 (44:02):
Yeah, availed on it it Amazon anywhere. But it looks fantastic.
They did a really good job with design. My agent
Shane Sellerno and Ryan Coleman at Story Factory were really
instrumental in the look and feelings. Well, but it's yeah. Look,
I mean, Bobby Gunn is a fascinating life from you know,
fighting grown men in parking lots at age eleven to
(44:25):
becoming a pro boxer, then leaving pro boxing at thirty,
just disillusioned with it. His mother had died, he got married,
he wanted a different life. For ten years, he just
fought solely in the underground and became a champion in
the illegal underground circuit of barre knuckle boxing. I've got
all these stories across the country of him fighting at
(44:49):
age forty.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
It just smells like cbgbis for some reason. I don't
know why. You know what I'm saying. It's like, you know,
it's just that whole time frame.
Speaker 5 (44:56):
Yeah, we've got there. There's great photos throughout. So I
was with him for years. I was taking pictures. I
got amazing vintage photos from Gun and other people as
well that we included. But at age forty he goes
back to pro boxing and fights some real serious contenders.
Thomas Adamack Roy Jones.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
Junior brought Roy Jones, Yeah, and Roy.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
Jones was fascinating. So Roy Joints came up in Gulf Coast, Florida,
and his dad was into dogfighting.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
That I know.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
You guys watching May not be able to see the
best of it. Go get this book that that dude
is yoke man.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
He is.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
He was you know, he was huge. He was huge.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
I mean the guy he's just so tight.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, and you know.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
And he fought Roy Jones Junior and all these guys
were fascinated by his his seventy three and oh record
in Bare Knuckle Box.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
He became a legend. You can you can YouTube him.
Speaker 5 (45:51):
There are songs about Bobby Gunn. I mean, he's almost
like this legendary ghost figure, especially before the internet. You know,
when he was doing this stuff, it was just the
whisper of this guy. And he would come into town
like a gunslinger and take down the local tough, take
the money, and he disappear.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
But you know, ro Joy's Junior was fascinated with that.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
He had grown up with a father who fought dogs,
dog fighting, and he knew the blood support at the
cock fighting and he respected gun. A lot of these
guys respected Gun for his ability to fight Baron uncle.
And it's just an incredible life story.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Yeah, I'm really happy to have had you on the
show today. It's been a really great time. And you know,
I know I've had you for you know, a good
little while today, and so I think I'll just kind
of leave it on this positive note and just say
that you're always welcome back on the show anytime you
have something to say or want to talk about it.
You know, if you want to talk about, you know,
the article of you writing about Tyson Fury, you know,
(46:46):
or if you want to talk about all these different things.
You guys can go out and find all sorts of
articles that Stayton has written. Just go take a look.
Type in his name.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
You'll find some Rolling Stones, Men's Journal, Esquire Stock or
so many. Yeah, seeing him.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Thank you so much. This has been so much fun.
I love your show. Thank you for having me. It's
been real pleasure, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
And from all of us here at soft Rep mafiasoft
rep dot com. You know that's my hashtag right there, soaye,
you know, we say thanks for being on the show,
thanks for being a friend of the program, and you're
always welcome back anytime, Stateton, So thanks again. And on
behalf of Styton and his book Bare Knuckle, the Bobby
(47:30):
gunn seventy three and Oh Undefeated, A Dad, A Dream,
A fight like You've never seen. By stateon Bonner. I
hope you get used to hearing your name all the
time like that, sir, so thank you for being on
the show.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
I loved it well. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And to my listener and viewer out there again, go
check out the merch We really appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
And check out our book club and we're going to
try to get that book right into that. And on
behalf of Brandon Webb, I'm gonna say peace.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
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