Gary Koch

Claude welcomes 6x PGA Tour winner and longtime sportscaster Gary Koch to the pod to discuss the U.S. Open at Oakmont, the difference between the players on Tour today versus those when Gary was playing, and the prestigious Payne Stewart Award that he received in 2023.

 

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's see some of the much podcast. I'm your host.
Claude Harmon, my guest this week, is a six time
winner on the PGA Tour, won the Payne Stewart Award
in twenty twenty three, and has been the voice of
basically the voice of golf for you know, really since
the nineties. Gary Man, it was good to have you
back on TV. I know it's only brief these days,
but as someone that loved your work and stuff, I mean,

(00:25):
we miss you, man, the fans miss you being on TV,
and it was great to have you back. Well.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I appreciate that. First of all, thank you very much
for the compliments. You know, I tell a lot of
people it's fun getting to come back and call the
golf and talk about golf. But the really fun part
for me is to come back and see the people
when you're no longer there, and a part of it
you start to reflect. And you know, I played for

(00:54):
sixteen years and I did television for close to thirty two.
In that period of time, I mean you make a
lot of friends, players, caddies, instructors, tour officials, tournament directors,
you know, so forth and so on. Then all of
a sudden when you're not there, you realize that was
the only time you got to see people. So coming

(01:15):
back players this year of Al's bar Us open great
opportunity for me to catch up, see a lot of
folks that I don't get to see anymore, check on
how they're doing and what's going on, and.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
That to me is probably my favorite part.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
You know, I don't think people realize that, aren't you
know part of you know, the tour like we are
and how much a part of our lives it's been
that it is one big, kind of giant traveling circus,
from the players every single week, to the caddies every
single week, to people like me on the back end,
the agents, and then you know, when you do television,
you know, I mean I did Sky Sky Sports Golf

(01:51):
for a number of years. The bonds that you make
with the crew and the television people that you work
day in and day out, I mean, I still I
got has to do some sky over the last two
majors and it was great coming back into the compound
and seeing everybody and so I hear you the US
Open Man. That was a throwback. It was like we

(02:13):
were back in the in the glory days of the
US Open. First of all, Oakmon is a golf course,
such amazing history there, Gary, What do you like about
that golf course? And what do you like about that venue?
Because I just can't think of a harder golf course
really anywhere on the planet Earth the way they set

(02:34):
it up and the tests that it demands. But it
really did feel like we were back to the old
school days of the USGA. And I think everybody Gary
got there last week and thought, yeah, even Parr wins
this easy. What did you like about the setup last week?
And what did you like about maybe kind of going
back to that old school kind of USGA bloodbaths setup.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, I would say the first thing I really liked
there was no graduated rough you know, it was just
either you were in the fairway or you were in
the really tall stuff. So it really put a lot
of pressure on the te shots, which which I liked
to see. To me, that was always part of the
US Open. One of the reasons why Lee Trevino had
so much success in because he could hit the fairways,

(03:19):
and you know, Jack Nicholas same thing success in the
US Opened a lot of times wouldn't hit drivers a
lot of one irons, a lot of three woods off
the tee, but always making sure that he was playing
from the fairway. So that was probably the first thing
that I noticed when I got there and started walking
around the golf course was like, you know, this reminds
me of the days when I used to play in
the US Open. You either hit the fairway or you

(03:42):
were in a lot of trouble. I like Oakmand from
the standpoint that it is difficult, There's no question about it.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
I would agree with you.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
I think it's the hardest golf course certainly in the
United States on a day in and day out basis.
I mean, the members are crazy. They love the green
at fourteen fourteen and a half every day, they light
the rough high, they love the penal bunkers. It is
just that hard a golf course. It certainly tested the
players not only from their skill level with the ability

(04:14):
to hit a golf ball, but it tested them as
far as their mental capabilities as well, the ability to
maintain your composure, to maintain your concentration, to accept the
fact that sometimes you were just going to have to
pitch out of the rough and down the fairway and
try to make what we always used to call a
US Open par which was a wedge out and then

(04:36):
another wedge to the green and hopefully you get a
chance to make the pipe. So from that standpoint, I
thought it was great.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
I really did.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
I'm a little concerned that they went back out and
played the last six or seven holes when they did,
But other than that, I thought it was a great
US Open.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
I mean, Gary, from your standpoint is a former player,
as someone that's won, You've won on big golf courses Bahill,
Tory and stuff like that. But as a former player,
as a fan, but also as a broadcaster, what do
you want major championships to test from the best players
in the world. What do you think these great players
were the best in the game, right? I mean it's

(05:15):
not even close. And I think you know the game
and Lynch sent they sent somebody out to go play
on the Monday that was a legit, you know, scratch
golfer and started to bake ninety. I mean, first of all,
I don't think the fans can appreciate just how hard
not only all majors are, but that test. But what
do you want majors to identify.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
From the players, Well, I think, first of all, I've
always felt like each major has kind of its own personality.
When I think of the Masters, I think of the
back nine, and I think of the opportunities on the
back nine for eagles and Verdi's, but also for disasters
as well. When I think of the Open Championship, I
think of the weather conditions. You know, they play such

(05:58):
a huge part and how the event goes about. PGA
to me, has always been what I would call the
tamest of the majors. The setup usually allows for some
pretty good scoring, but the US Open is always about
the difficulty and making sure that it is the most
difficult of the four majors. They accomplished that this year
and again I think you want to see in a

(06:20):
major championship, you want to see great shots. Don't get
me wrong. I mean, you know, you want to see
these guys be able to perform what they're capable of doing,
and as you say, they do some amazing things that
I would agree. I don't think the average viewer understands
just how good these guys actually are and some of
the shots that they actually play. I mean, just from

(06:42):
my generation of players to what I watch now, there
are times where I literally shake my head and just go, wow,
that's pretty unbelievable. You know, when I see a guy
take a threewood off the ground and carry the ball
two hundred and eighty five two hundred ninety yards in
the air, I mean, that's mind boggling to me. I mean,

(07:03):
you know, back in my day, a good drive by
the longest drivers hit at two hundred and eighty five
yards off the tee.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
And now.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
And now these guys are hitting it farther than that
off the ground with a three wood. So you know,
you want to see that, but you also want to
see them tested. You want to see them have to
think a little bit. You want to see them have to,
as I said at the US Open, maintain your concentration,
your composure, and every now and then.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
I wouldn't want.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
A steady diet of US Open golf, you know, no question.
I don't think the fans would like that either. But
every now and then it's fun to see the best
in the world tested the way they were there at
opont and to see if they can, you know, accept
the fact that you know, being in the fairway two
hundred and seventy five yards off the tea was better

(07:53):
than being in the rough three hundred and twenty yards
off the team most of the time where they play,
that's not the case.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Where's the line in your opinion, Gary on fair versus unfair?
Because there are these US opens that we've seen in
history to where it seems like, okay, there's that conversation
late on the weekends, Okay, is the golf course getting
away from the championship? And then how much of the
green complexes, certainly at a place like Oakmont where they

(08:22):
can get those greens so fast, and you know the
squareness of some of those greens, which is so weird
to see, you know a few of the holes at
Oakmont with the square greens. But where do you kind
of come in on the balance of fair versus from
a conditioned setup, wise from the rough standpoint, from how
fast they can get the greens? Because I was talking

(08:43):
to friend, the head of the USCA, on the Monday
night and he said, what do you think the players
want from us from setting up the golf course? And
I said, you know, whenever I talk to players, they
don't mind the golf course being hard. They don't mind
it being a tough test. But what they don't want
is to hit a good shot and then get punished

(09:04):
for it and then be made to look stupid. So
the balance on the setup between what's fair and what's not.
I mean, you can't control the weather, right, you can't
control and it was soft and okmont I mean, oh yeah,
they had rain and then on the Sunday it got
really soft. If they have no rain for seven days,
I don't know how anybody would have finished five over.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Right, right, And and you think about it, I mean
that's what Cabrera won with that year. He won with
five over. And the golf course is that tight. I
think the USGA, you know, especially with their desire to
make the golf course as difficult as possible but still fair.
Often time, I shouldn't say maybe not oftentimes, but sometimes

(09:49):
they get so close to the edge that when mother
nature doesn't cooperate, all of a sudden, it kind of
goes overboard and it gets and it gets it's.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Away from them.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
And you know, we've seen examples of that at Shinnecock
a couple of times. You know, Pinehurst the one year
years ago when Michael Campbell won was was pretty close
to that. It got really firm and really fast, and
I understand as a player, you know, you want to
be rewarded for good shots. You don't want to be punished.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
You know. Embarrassment, Well, you know that kind of comes
with the US Open.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
I hate to say it. I had many a moment
at the US Open where I was more than embarrassed.
So you know, that really notts something you can control.
The one thing I didn't like at the Open last
week at Oakmont and talking to Gil Hands, Gill said,
you know, they went back in the design and the
photos from the phones era and so forth and so on,

(10:49):
and they had a lot of these steep edges coming
off the green to where the ball would go down
into the bunker, and by growing the rough so long
around the greens and around some of the bunkers, it
prevented balls from actually going into the sand. Classic example
to me was Tyrrell Hatton on the seventy first hole

(11:09):
hit a drive and it was and it wasn't a
great drive. It was not a great drive, but he
actually missed it in the right place. If the ball
goes down into the bunker, it's a relatively easy bunker shot.
He's got plenty of green to work with. You know,
the chances are he's going to have a probably ten
foot birdie putter less, but the five and a half

(11:30):
inch rough grabs it. And now it's sitting on a
straight downhill lie where you know, the green's up above him,
probably eight or ten feet, And yeah, I mean, the
chances of him getting that ball on the green, we're
almost not. We saw another example of it on the
thirteenth hole of the part three one day, Xander Schoffley

(11:50):
hit a T shot that was pulled. It wasn't a
great shot by any means, but it just trickled off
the green to the left and rather than going down
into the bunker, it hung up on this almost vertical
face and this five and a half in he had
to chip the ball away from the hole. He couldn't
even chip it toward the hole because he didn't know
if he could keep it on the green from that position. So,

(12:14):
you know, I think sometimes they maybe go a little
too far, and especially if you've just gone through this
restoration to try to create this situation to where the
bulk goes into the bunker and now you've grown grass
that prevents it from going in the bunker. To me,
that's probably a little over the top.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
And I think sometimes when I mean, I listen, if
you want to go the rough up off petite to
put a premium on you know, hitting the golf ball
in the fairway, I mean, okay, you can, you can
make an argument for that. But it seems to me
sometimes when we have US Open rough, right, there is
a term called us Oh yeah, You'll go to a
regular golf course like Memorial, and you'll sometimes at Memorial

(12:55):
in summertime, you'll look around and you'll say, yeah, this
is like US Open rough. Well, do you feel maybe
at times the rough being so penal around the greens
and so thick? Is there an argument to be made
here that it takes some of the skill out of
it because there is no skill. It doesn't matter if
you're Patrick Reid or set Me Biosteros. It has an
amazing short game. It's almost like sometimes the skill level

(13:20):
around the green complex is it kind of makes everyone
the same? How much is too much rough around the greens?

Speaker 3 (13:28):
Right? I would agree with that one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
I think when you get the roughest severe it was
at Oakmont, around the greens, you have a situation.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
I always call it's hack and hope.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
I mean, you hack at it and you hope that
the ball comes out the way you anticipate based on
your thought as how the ball is actually lying in
the grass. And yeah, there's certain techniques. Obviously, you got
to get the club up in the air a little quicker,
and you bet got to be a little bit steeper
and all that kind of stuff. But every one of
those players has that ability to make that adjustment. But

(14:01):
then it becomes how hard do I hit it? And
especially when you short sighted yourself in a US Open,
and you know you have to have speed to get
the club through that grass five and a half inches.
As you say, it was wet, it was sticky, I
mean it was nasty. You know, to only make the
ball go say twenty feet and you only need to

(14:23):
carry it three you know, you can look pretty foolish,
you really can't. There were certain situations to me where,
you know, when we had done a US Amateur telecast there,
we'd done other opens there at Opat they had some
shaved areas you know around you know, like behind number
three was shaved, you know, behind the third green it

(14:44):
was it was cut at fairwey high. To me, that
allows a little more creativity, a little more skill, you know,
various shots and that kind of thing. I personally like
to see that a lot more than what I call
the hack and hope.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Let's talk about JJ Spahn. I mean what a performance.
I mean put it into perspective what he did, because
if you look at the leader board, not only on
the weekend, but on Sunday, I mean, you had some
of the best players in the world, you have some
of the some of the favorites every single week going
into these and I think JJ's had an amazing year.
You know, the playoff at the Players with Rory, but

(15:22):
JJ spawn is not somebody that anybody had on a
list of who's going to win the US Open at Oakmont.
How good was the performance?

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Well, I think it was incredible, no question about it.
And you know I touched on earlier. I wasn't sure
they should go back out and play those last six
or seven holes. JJ Spond's really glad they did. You know,
it was almost like the weather delay was a reset
for him. I mean he was headed in the wrong direction.
I mean it was eerily similar to the players. Remember

(15:55):
the players had had a weather delay as well in
the final round, and he came back out of that
weather delay and actually hit some clutch shots, made some
great putts and had a chance to win that right
very late on the last hole. Didn't make the putt there,
but you know, got himself into the playoff. It was
eerily similar at the US Open. I mean at the
start that he.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Had, I mean you you.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Wrote him off forty on the front right, I mean,
he was he was terrible, looked nervous, looked, you know,
like he just couldn't handle the situation.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
But for some reason or.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Another, when he came back out after that weather delay,
the reset was incredible, just amazing. I mean that the
shot he hit at seventeen, the two shots he hit
at eighteen, you know, yeah, the putt, I mean, you
know you're trying to two putt, it goes in. You know,
he clearly would have been able to putt. It was
such a great putt.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
I tell you.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
I mentioned earlier, you know that Leechervino did really well
in US Opens. His swing, maybe not the back swing,
but the forward motion through the ball and the finish
and the ball flight kind of a low, you know,
left to right under control. Shot reminded me a lot
of Leech Reno, and watching it really did.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
DJ was hitting golf balls next to JJ on Tuesday
and a friend of mine messaged me and he said, hey,
I need some sleeper picks. Give me some, you know,
not superstar picks. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, okay,
Shane Lowry finished second there, you know, had a big lead.
It's a golf course that you know, I know he
really really likes. He's been playing well. And I said,
I think Shane Lowry. But JJ's hitting balls right next

(17:27):
to us. He's working with his coach, Adam Striver. First
of all, there's a sound test. There's an audio test
when you're watching guys hit golf balls.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
On the range.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
And there are guys that have a completely different audio test,
Rory McElroy, Scottie Scheffler. They're all out of center the
club face. Gary. I'm watching JJ hit balls and every
single one of these out of the middle of the
club face like this sound is good, the balance is good.
I'm watching the shape and this was through the bag.
We got to the range about the same time. I

(17:57):
watched him do an entire practice session watch. So then
on the weekend I'm thinking, hey, and I thought, when
you go back, you can always go back and look
at you know, what helped players win the tournament. But
I think in looking back, the stretch on was it
on Saturday makes paws from five to sixteen just does Again,

(18:21):
we've seen that in the past. We haven't seen that necessarily,
I think recently from a US Open. But you know this,
having covered so many of these, the guys that win
these scenes will have days to where they'll just put
eleven twelve pors in a row, and in that stretch
they're making the seven to ten foot or for poor

(18:43):
that they need to make. I thought it was incredibly
impressive that JJ had no double bogies for the entire week, right,
I mean nineteenth and fairways hit ninth in the greens
ninth and putting that rain delay that you talked about.
You've probably been a part of a lot of those
in the course of your career. They can be the
reset that you need, but then they can also go

(19:04):
the other way to where you can actually be leading
and cruising. Do you think maybe the reset helped JJ
Moore and it hurt Sam Burns and out of scott
because they came out started double boge in every hole.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah yeah, well, I mean you look back on it.
I mean Sam Burns had just birdied the tenth folt.
I mean you know it was like he kind of
had taken control. Seemed to be, you know, striking the
ball as well as anybody, got some momentum back by
making that birdie at ten, and then man, when he
came back out, it.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
Was it was just night and day.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
And yeah, you know, as a player, I mean we
all kind of do the same things in weather delays.
You kind of hang around, You maybe eat a little bit,
or you know, you gather in a group of friends
and you're telling stories, or you know, some guys will
go off in a corner and kind of lay down
and try to relax. I mean, there's no magic formulas
to you know, what guys do during weather delay. But

(20:01):
you know, obviously, in listening to what JJ's bond said,
you know, he got together with his team and his
team kind of said, hey, look, you know you're not
out of this yet. You know you're four shots behind.
If we just started on Monday and said Sunday afternoon,
you would be four shots back with eight holes to go.
In a US Open, you'd probably said, wow, you know, yeah,

(20:24):
I take it. I'd take it. You know, I'd like
to be in that position. So you know, obviously somebody
planted some good seeds in his brain to you know,
say hey, you know, look, go back out there and
play the way you you know you've been playing. You
don't have to do anything special, just get back to
what you were doing, and he was able to do it.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
I thought it was also lucky for JJ that they
didn't shelter in place, because sometimes they'll do that, right,
they'll call everybody so, yes, it's just a there's no
there's no lightning, so this is just going to blow through.
And I think originally they did that they thought it
was maybe going to go through and to be maybe
a fifteen to twenty minute to lay shelter in place,
but then they knew it was going to be longer,
so then they pull everybody gets pulled off, and then

(21:06):
after a certain timeframe then they have to let everybody
warm back up. And I do know that Adam Shreiver
and Josh greg Green, who has been helping JJ with
the short game, said to him, listen, take the handbrake off,
stop it, you know, just let it go, just and
step up. And I think that's I think that's the
other thing that I always find interesting about that kind
of US Open setup is you know it's going to

(21:29):
be difficult, and you can go out and all you're
trying to do is not hit bad shots. All you're
trying to do is not miss the fair way, not
miss the green. And then you start missing fairways and
you miss greens that stretch from five to sixteen on Saturday.
As a former player, you've played in a lot of
these US Opens, you've played in the old school days

(21:49):
that stretch. How hard is it Gary to just grind out,
you know, two solid hours of just making pars because
the rest of your career as a player, it's not
like that. You know that they're going to be burned.
Even the par five sat at Oakmart legit char So
there really aren't a lot of other than maybe fourteen,

(22:12):
the short par four that was you know everybody was
getting close to. That was a legit. Bob Ford told
me that he was walking around the longtime head pro there.
He said, listen, I think fourteen is this week is
the only legit party chance these players have, so everything
else is just holding on. How hard is it to
switch that mindset, Gary to Okay, I'm in a US

(22:33):
Open now, I just have to throw together as many
pars this week as I can. What do you have
to do mentally to change that switch from attack to
not protect, but to play conservatively aggressive? Right?

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Well, I think you know you touched on it very
early on, and I know I talked to probably half
a dozen caddies and probably ten players, and every single
one of them told me the exact same thing. I'll
take even par right now and never tee off. So
you know, if that's the mindset going in, and it
was obviously with a bunch of people, a good caddy

(23:14):
is going to keep reminding you, hey, every time we
make a par, we're going to pick up shots on somebody.
You know, we're going to pick up a half a
shot on somebody or a full shot on somebody. And
I do think, you know, so much of that is
putting well because if you keep making some you know,
you make those first two or three seven eight footers

(23:36):
ten foot or whatever, and all of a sudden, you know,
your confidence grows with that. And now all of a
sudden you know, you don't feel the need that I
have to get this ball right next to the hole
all the time. You know, if I if I'm in
the rough around the green and I chip it to
eight feet, it's okay. You know, I can make this

(23:56):
putt and that you know, as you said, and that
timeframe on Saturday, he did that time after time after time.
And you know, once you start doing it, it's like, okay,
I can play the golf course this way and still
be in fine shape. So again I go back to,
you know, the US Open Test, and one of the

(24:17):
aspects is the mental component of it. And yeah, I
mean you've got to be able to change your attitude
and your approach. I mean, that's just the way it is.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
A couple of years ago, we were in rain delay
and I was talking to David Deval when he was
doing some TV at the Masters for Golf Channel, and
we're on one of the tour trucks, and I said
to him, you know, David, you had a great career.
You're number one in the world, won a major champion.
You're a great college player. To be a great player,
to be a major champion, to be number one in
the world. What do you think you have to have?

(24:48):
And I thought he was going to say something about
shots or something like that, and it's always something that
stuck with me. He said, I think to be a
great player and to be a great champion, you have
to have acceptance. You have to be able to accept
what is happening. And I think you know, the years
open at Oakmon is a great example of acceptance. You
are not going to change that golf course, you know,

(25:11):
Thirst and Lawrence he was six under run Thursday. You
knew he wasn't going to finish six under even for
the day, right, So that acceptance of Okay, I know
the golf course is hard. I know it is going
to be a very difficult test. I know I'm not
going to get a lot of great looks for Birdie.
But then there's that thing that I think is always

(25:31):
difficult for you guys as players, to where you're in
protect mode, You're in defense mode all day. Because I
always think major championships, the ones that win those are
the guys that play offense when they need to play offense,
and they play defense when they need to play defense.
And the trick of what the USGA does is you

(25:51):
get out of position and you know you should be
playing defense, but your brain tells you, Okay, I have
to play offense. But the opposite of that, the shot
that JJ hit at seventeen, that is where you have
to play offense, and to take advantage of that and
play offense at the right time. To choose to play offense,

(26:13):
but then to execute that, it must be very difficult
to say, Okay, I've been in defense mode all day,
all day, and now I've got a fifteen foot up
the hill for berdie.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
How do I.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Handle this all right? Well, and you know on the
broadcast we said it often. I mean, you know, you
get so defensive, especially on those greens, I mean running
as fast as they were, and then you get some
of the down slopes and the side slopes and everything
else that you know, your defensive, your defensive, your defensive,
and then all of a sudden you get a putt

(26:45):
you know where you are uphill and it's like, oh,
you know, I could actually hit this one. Well, we
saw a lot of those puts, you know, kind of
come up short or not be strug firmly enough, and
it's just, you know, it plays on your mind. There's
no question about it. That's that's what makes the US
Open so unique. So you know, you talked about it.

(27:07):
He had the opportunity there at seventeen, JJ did he
pulled the shot off. The one thing about seventeen that
I liked was, I mean I didn't look at the
final stats, but I would guess probably ninety five ninety
seven percent of the time the green, they were going
for the green. I mean, there's no reason to lay
out not anymore. I mean, they can all hit it

(27:29):
far enough. So you knew that that was going to
be the case. You knew he was going to try
to drive it on the green and to be able
to stand up there and make that swing. As you said,
you know, being aggressive at the right time is one
thing mentally, but then being able to physically do it
is a whole other thing. But that's why he's got

(27:49):
the US Open trophy. He did it at the right time.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
So obviously, I mean, you know this. You win a
PGA Tour event, your life changes, right, you know, you
have a career like you have where you win multiple times,
your life changes. But when you win a major and
you've never you know, i mean, JJ's never won a
major before everybody says it's life changing, it's life altering
in your opinion, deary, how how is it life altering?

(28:14):
And how does that change affect a player? What now
happens to JJ? Moving forward? Every time because you know this,
you win a tournament, you show up at a PJ
tour bent, everybody looks at you differently, and then you
win another tournament. So if you're a multiple winner on tour,
you're looked at in a different light. But if you

(28:35):
win a major championship, you are forever looked at completely
differently in the sport by everybody. How do you feel
like his life changes now?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well, I think what'll be fascinating to see and I
think it happens anytime a guy who maybe you don't
expect to win a major wins one. Is what happens
after that? Because it is going to be different, you know,
now all of a sudden, there are a lot of
demands on your time, you know, a lot of opportunities
to make money, you know, but again, does that take

(29:08):
you out of your normal routine? Does that take you
out of you know, the things that you used to
do to get to where you got By winning the
US Open. I've seen it, you know, happen numerous times.
I mean, some guys handle it very well, other guys don't,
and you just never know. But the demands on your time,

(29:28):
you know, having never won a major, but I just
know you need to learn how to say no is
one thing that's really important because now every time something
comes up, you know, JJ spond is going to be
asked about it, because he's the US Open champion. Doesn't
matter whether it's about golf or life or something else, politics,

(29:52):
even you know, all the world's going, he's going to
be asked about it. So managing your time and still
being able to do the thing things that got you
to where you are, I think is critical, I really do.
I mean a very dear friend of mine, Bill Rogers, well,
I had an unbelievable year, you know, won the Open

(30:12):
Championship one in Australia one, you know, and the next
few years he you know, chased the money, went and
played everywhere, got paid to go play. And sure enough,
within probably a year and a half two years after
that fabulous year, he was burned out. He was tired
of golf, and he was never the same player. And

(30:33):
you know he would admit to this day that you know,
he didn't handle it very well. So it'll be fascinating
to see how JJ doesn't.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Speaking of saying no, you've been on both sides of this.
You've been on the player side and the broadcasting side.
Rory McElroy's stance lately, I mean, I saw a tweet
the other day and said it said, who would have
thought that Roy mcawaite could win the Masters and get
the Grand Slam? And we're talking about him negatively the

(31:06):
way that we have his stance lately to not speak
to the press. Listen. He is entitled to do it, right.
It's not mandatory. It's not like it is another team
sports in the NFL. You are not contractually obligated to
speak to the media. I think a lot of people
look at times that I find Rory to be incredibly engaging,
incredibly curious. I think he's smart. I enjoy talking to him.

(31:30):
When when I talk to him, we don't really talk
a lot about golf. We talk about other things. He's
a smart kid, right, he has a lot to say sometimes.
I think in the last four years it seems like
he'd loves the sound of his own voice and then
right now, it's like he doesn't want to say anything.
Where are you on this kind of And as a
wider question, do you feel like the players owe the

(31:54):
media and the fans interviews?

Speaker 2 (31:58):
You know, having been at a large part of that
one side of it media for quite some time.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Yeah, you'd like to think that.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
I don't know if oh is the right word, but
you'd like to think that most of these guys would
be smart enough that, you know, every time we show
their face or they're on TV, or they're doing an interview,
or they're up there on the media center, you know,
with all their logos on and all the money they're
making from their sponsors, that you know, this is just
another opportunity for me to keep a lot of people happy.

(32:32):
That being said, I get the sense, and I have
not had a chance to talk to Rory about this.
I think he was very unhappy with the driver situation
and what happened at the PGA and that it came
out that his driver was non conforming and there were
other players drivers that were non conforming that didn't make

(32:52):
big headlines like his did. And you know, you know
as well as I do as a player, you don't
know when your driver's non conforming or not. I mean,
you hit enough balls and sure enough, sooner or later
the face gets too thin and then it doesn't pass
the test. But it's not like, you know, all of
a sudden, your driver's going fifteen yards farther than it was,
you know, and it's non conforming. I mean, you don't

(33:14):
know that. So I think he was a little unhappy
and upset about that and how that was handled. But
that being said, come out and just say that one time.
Do want to interview and just say, hey, look, you know,
I feel like I was treated unfairly. I mean, I
know other guys drivers were not conforming. I don't like
the fact that, you know, you guys made such a

(33:35):
big deal out of the fact that I was non
conforming and then it would be over, you know, it
would be done. I will say, I think he's in
a strange place, you know, after achieving this lifelong goal
of this career Grand Slam and winning the Masters after
sixteen attempts or whatever it was, and he's, you know,

(33:56):
he's struggling a little bit to get reset and come
up with new goals and everything else. You know, he
made a comment, he did talk Friday after he birdied
the eighteenth hold to make the cut there at Oakmont,
and he made a comment about something about it it's
a lot easier to do when you really don't care
whether you're there on the weekend or not, which was like,
that's just not the Rory McElroy that I know. I mean,

(34:18):
you know, he's more competitive than that. So I was
glad to see him play well on Sunday and then
do a bunch better interview. Seemed to handle last week
at the Travelers well. Again, I think it was just
a temporary blip, and you know, I think he'll be back,
you know, doing what he should be doing.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Should we make it mandatory?

Speaker 1 (34:40):
To me?

Speaker 2 (34:40):
When you start making stuff mandatory, you start taking away
the fact that we're independent contractors. The guys who play
on the tour independent contractors. They set their own schedule.
They're all CEOs of their own business. So if the
CEO of the business decides he doesn't want to talk
to the media, then you know what, it's his decision
to make. It probably won't go on well, it won't
come across well, but it is his decision to make.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
When you look at Rory McRoy, now as a you know,
he was one of the Grand Slam five majors. You
followed him a lot. What do you like about his
game and what what do you marvel at about the
things that he does, Because I I mean, I've been
lucky enough and that you have those of us that
have been around the game a long time, and I'm
I'm glad that I grew up in that kind of

(35:24):
middle generation. I didn't see Nicholas really play. My dad
talks about it. He's, you know, my dad kind of
he'll be eighty two in August. He's like, I've seen
pretty other than he said, I never really saw, you know,
Gene Sarason play a lot, or Bobby Jones, but he's like,
you know, other than you know, my dad's eighty two
and in eight, but he's like, Rory mcroy's one of
the greatest golfers I've ever seen in my opinion. I mean,

(35:45):
I got to watch my dad work with Greg Norman,
and I think Greg Norman's one of the greatest golfers
I've ever seen. I got to watch my dad work
with Tiger Woods. I think Tiger is the greatest all
but Rory is as good a golfer. As you can
find what you love about him? What do you like
watching about it?

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Well, you know, I mean let's start the last.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
With with the way he drives the golf. I mean,
you know, to to watch that flight, you know, that
high towering draw, which to me, I feel like when
you watch a large majority of the players, now, even
the best players, they all tend to fade the ball

(36:29):
now right because the way the drivers are building, the
way the golf balls are designed and everything else, it's
a lot easier and you can make it go far enough,
a lot easier to control, playing something left to right.
And here he'll stand up there and hit this big,
high towering draw that carries three hundred and twenty yards

(36:50):
and it's just and his balance is perfect. I mean,
it's just. It's a marvel to watch, it really is.
I think a short game is underrated. I think he's
actually pretty good short game wise. I do think one
of the things I've been impressed with the most here
Fairly recently, he talked about he went to a spinniar

(37:10):
golf ball, and by going to the spinnier golf ball,
he had to learn how to take some speed off
the short irons, so he didn't spin the ball too
much coming into the greens. So to me, you're seeing
a lot more of these, like kind of three quarter finishes,
a little slower motion through the ball with the short irons,
because he always had a tendency to meet us swing

(37:32):
to short irons a little bit like the driver, big
full swing, kind of hit a big high draw. Oftentimes
he'd be long left with a short iron. But now
I think he's got the ball under control with his
shorter clubs. I want you know, I can remember your
dad telling me years ago, telling Dustin Johnson, Dustin, you're

(37:54):
going to have probably ten to twelve shots of one
hundred and fifty yards or less every eighteen holes you play.
That's some sort of wedge for you. You need to
figure out how to control the distance with your wedges.
And once he started doing that, track Man with his
wedge play, you know, he got the number one in

(38:15):
the world. So if Rory can continue with that and
continue to improve the short iron play. His putting is streaky,
you know, there's no question about that. But you know
there's been a lot of great players that have had
been streaky with a putter. The good news is is
when he gets going, he keeps going with it, and
that's when he wins tournaments and shoots good scores.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Is he the complete player? When you look at him,
you look at him and just say he basically because
like you said, there are players that are dominant now.
I think you can do that. You can dominate now
and be a dominant player by doing a couple of
things really really well. If you've got distance, if you're

(38:56):
a great driver of the golf ball. When I look
at Rory his game, in the evolution of his game
over the years, he has added shots right to the arsenal.
When he came out, he was winning golf balls by
just hitting a high bomb, nukedraw right, he hit it
further than everybody. He won. Well, where majors got the
number one in the world.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
And you think of those early majors an he won.
Every one of them was soft. Ye, the golf courses
were soft, Valhalla, Congressional, you know they were soft. I
was amazed when I first watched him play how infrequently
he hit any kind of knockdown shot.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, he hasn't really played back.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Wait for having grown up in Ireland playing you would
have assumed I mean, it's like when I grew up
down here in Florida, one of the first things I
learned is I got to be a better player, was
how to control the trajectory and knocked the ball down
into the wind. I was amazed when I first watched
Rory play that he didn't have more of that ability.

(39:54):
I think he does now. I think he controls his
trajectory much better than he used to.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Speaking of another complete player this run, Scotty Scheffler's all.
I mean thirteen events this year's and people forget he
was heard at the beginning of the year. Right, thirteen events,
nine top tens, three wins a major. You know, I
asked Steve Sands, I up Sandy on the podcast a
couple of years ago. And the comparisons that everybody's making

(40:19):
to Tiger, Right, you watched Tiger, You did the iconic
better than most all of that. Right, But Tiger is
kind of the modern benchmark, where for you Jack was
the benchmark, sure, but for the modern generation post kind
of Foudo and Norman, Tiger is he's the need all,
He's the benchmark. So everybody is going to the great

(40:42):
ones like Rory. Roy gets compared to Tiger. Right, the
things that Rory does get very closely compared to Tiger
because he is so dominant and Scotty Scheffler's dominant run
that he's been on now for three four years, first
of all, put it into perspective. How good is it?
And can it continue? And can he get better?

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Right?

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Well, it's amazing would be my one word to describe it.
It is amazing, you know, just week after week after week,
which you know does remind you of Tiger a little bit.
You talk about a complete player, he is very close
to that.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
In my mind.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Again, I think his short game is somewhat underrated. I
don't think people talk about it enough, but he seems
to be, you know, very adequate. More than adequate with
his short game. I would say, of all the players
that I've watched through the Tiger era and now you know,
post Tiger, Scotty plays his irons closer to what Tiger

(41:46):
did than anybody I've seen. He tends to hit the
ball the right distance, a high right, and that was
Tiger's calling card when he was at his best. You know,
he hit the ball the right distance all the time,
And to me, that's something that you can't teach. I mean,
you're a wonderful teacher, you're a great teacher. You can't

(42:07):
teach that. That is, that's an innate thing that some
people have that others don't. I mean, you can have
the greatest technique in the world, but if you don't
have that innate feel and ability to visualize the shot
that's going to go the right distance, and you know
a lot of times it's a matter of taking just

(42:28):
a little bit of speed off to make the ball
go four yards shorter than it normally does. You know,
you can't teach that. You either have that or you don't.
Scotty does. Scotty has that, and you see it time
and time again. You know that he hits the ball
the right distance with desrons. Putting has gotten better, no
question about it. The work he's done with Phil Kenyan

(42:50):
and go into the claw, grip or whatever you want
to call it. You know, on the shorter putting, he
seems to be better with that, which was probably his
biggest concern, you know, two years ago. Can he get better?
It'll be interesting to me because he does have a
tendency which you know every player you know as well
as I do. Every player has tendencies. He has a

(43:13):
left miss and you see it when he's a little
off the ball wants to start left and then kind
of hang left.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Or maybe even go a little farther left.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
And when you're trying to play a cut shot most
of the time, a lot of times that's not a
good thing. And talking to Randy Smith about it, he
said a lot of times it's in his setup. You know,
he just gets set up a little cock eyed, and
and you know the ball starts left of where he
wants and the face isn't open enough to get the
ball to come back to the right. But you know,

(43:43):
and I think that was on full display at Opemond
on Saturday afternoon, you.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
Know, Sunday on the front end first, everything left right.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Now that's not to say that Tiger didn't tendencies too,
He did, you know. I mean again, every player does.
Can you manage those and can you maybe minimize that tendency?
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Scotty figures that out.
What's the ceiling. Wow, he's already number one, you know what.

(44:18):
He's on a run now like six or seven straight
events where it's worst finished is eighth. I mean it
just worst finished this year is twenty fifth at waste management,
twentieth afth the players, everything else is a legit, every
single win to win exactly well. I mean the US
Open was a great example. I mean, he clearly did
not have his A game, and I would argue maybe

(44:40):
the first couple of days it might not even have
been his B game. And sure enough, come the end
of the week, where does he finish?

Speaker 3 (44:46):
Top ten?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
So that and you know, I can remember Tiger, you know,
didn't make a lot of other players very happy. But
sometimes Tiger would announce that he had won with.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
His B game.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
So I'm going to put you on the spot. Yeah,
who has more majors at the end of their career?
Rory or Scotty? Wow, So we got Rory at five
and yes he's a little bit older now, yeah, and Scott.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Is at three three.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
I'm gonna say Scotti ends up with I Really, I
just think he's I think he's got a lot that
he still wants to do. You know, I think it'll
be interesting to see if Rory can reset, you know,
after reaching that goal of the career Grand Slam and
finally winning the masters. You know, Rory to me is

(45:37):
entering an age where you know, he's thirty five.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
Now, and you know, yeah, I mean it's you.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Know, it used to be in my generation, your thirties
were kind of like your prime.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Yeah, you know, I mean you kind of got out.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
On tour in your twenties and you kind of figured
it out and and got better and you know, figured
out maybe how to win.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
And then you know, by the.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Time you were in your thirties, kind of your mental
and your physical kind of melded together to reach your peak.
I see that happening a lot earlier now with the
guys on tour, you know, they seem to peak mid twenties,
some of them, you know, so really maybe Scotty's just
coming into his peak and Rory is, you know, accomplished

(46:23):
a lot and can he get himself back and motivated
enough to keep going so you know, it'd be fun
to watch.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Why Gary, do you think we are seeing this kind
of trend of You know, my dad talks about this
a lot. When you used to come out on tour,
you had to serve an apprenticeship. You needed to kind
of earn your stripes, learn the ropes, learn the tournaments.
It was going to take you. Even if you were
a great college player or had a great amateur career,

(46:53):
it was going to take you. Everybody said, listen, it's
going to take him three, four or five years to
kind of figure it out. Man, he's going to start winning.
But we are just seeing on mass for the last
five to seven years, the players come out of come
that wolf comes out of college wins me like, these
players come out. Do you see anything as to why

(47:13):
that is happening more and faster now then maybe it
did in your era or the past. I think one
of the big things is the technology that's available.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
I really do. The instruction is so.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
Much better, The technology is better. You know a lot
of a lot of what we did, you know, and
then this goes back to the mid seventies when I
started on the tour. A lot of what we did
was trial and error. I mean it was it was
just trial and error. I mean, you got you started
hitting balls, and if it was drawing too much, you
tried to figure out to make it go to the

(47:49):
other direction.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
If you were testing drivers, if you found one you liked,
I just liked it, and you just used it.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
You used it.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
I mean, you didn't have numbers, you didn't have launch angle,
you didn't you knew it felt good and when you
swung it produced a shot that you knew you could play.
So I think these guys are just much better prepared
from that standpoint. And look, there's no question. I mean
when I played in college, I played against some great
players Ben Crenshaw and Tom Kite and you know, Curtis

(48:19):
Strange and Jay Haas, and I mean, you know a
lot of great players. But the sheer number of really
good players now is so much more than when we played.
And I think because that level of competition is so
much better, these guys are just used to, you know,
performing at a top level sooner. It is interesting, you know,

(48:43):
I think back on my class that you know, when
I went to the tour school in the fall in
nineteen seventy five, and everybody talks about, you know, all
these guys are winning.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
Right out of the gate now and blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Well, in my class, Bob Gilder won is second start
in Phoenix. I won my sixth start at Tallahassee. Jerry
Pate won the US Open and the Canadian Open. His
rookie year, you know. So it's not like this is
a totally new phenomenon, these guys coming out of college

(49:19):
and winning tournaments right away. So you know, it's happened before,
maybe not as frequently for sure, but you know, the
guys are just better. I mean, they're just better playing.
I mean I think you know, look, I'm three times
first time, you know, all American at Florida. I was
runner up individually in the NCAA tot Crenshaw one year

(49:40):
and Curtis Strains the next year. These guys are so
much better than I was coming out of college. I mean,
you know, I could somewhat hit the ball. I could
putt like crazy, and I could chip like crazy. These
guys now strike the ball. I mean, it's just it's
night and day.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
It really is. It's night and day.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
Other than obviously, maybe we I was going to say,
other than the equipment. Maybe we can't take the equipment
out of the equation. But in your mind, what is
in twenty twenty five the professional game? How is it
played differently by the players than when you played? What
do you look at and go okay, that is just

(50:19):
a completely different way of playing the game. Than we
played it right.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Well, I think it starts with the analytics. You know,
we had no analytics. I mean we just did you know, Yeah,
you might keep your own you know stats. You know
I hit so many yeah, I mean, you know, but
we didn't have analytics as the best way to play holes.
You mentioned Josh Gregory a little earlier about he's now
working with JJ spond. So about four years ago, I'm

(50:48):
on the range at the Players and Josh is there
and I and I said, Josh, you know, help me
understand something. I said, I never see this generation players
lay up. I mean it's always attack, attack, attack, And
I said, why is that?

Speaker 1 (51:07):
What?

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Help me understand that? And he goes, Gary, these guys
don't fear penalty strokes.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
And it was like whoa.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
That just blew my mind because in our day, out
of bounds was a complete sin. I mean, you couldn't
afford to hit a ball out of bounds. You're going
to make a double bogie. And we didn't make that
many birdies, so you know, you got to a hole
where you weren't comfortable.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
It was tight. I mean, you know, you hit a
one iron off the tee or whatever. And he goes.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
You have to remember that most of the golf courses
that these guys play, they're going to reach probably three
or maybe all four of the par fives and two.
So they're literally playing par sixty eight or nine golf courses.
If it's a par seventy two course.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
In their head, they're.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Like in their head, in their head.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
And I saw recently Gary, but pretty much everybody on
the PGA Tour every single year is under par on
the par fix right right, So it's just full attack.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
So he goes, Look, if they feel like they're going
to make two three birdies on the par fives, and
they're probably going to make another birdie or two somewhere else.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
So if they go for the.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Green and they hit a ball in the water and
they make a bobie, it's not that big a deal.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
You know.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
They're just not overly concerned about it because they know
they're going to make enough birdies to still shoot a
good score. And that was the most mind boggling thing
to me because it was so opposite of how we played.
I mean, we feared penalty strokes. I mean we you
just you couldn't afford them because you just I mean,

(52:46):
you know, if I made three birdies around average, three
birdies around that was probably pretty good. You know, a
little over three birdies that was great. Well, you know,
if I hit it out of bounds on the whole,
there goes, there goes the three birdies that I'm gonna make,
and you know, you can't shoot a good score. So
the mindset is just totally different. And look, you know,

(53:12):
I'm an old fogie and you know sometimes I'm.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
Marvel and wonder.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
You know, can playing out of the rough from eighty
yards be better than playing from the fairway at one hundred?
I know where I'd prefer to play from. But obviously
these guys have the statistics, they have the information, and
they know that you know, closer yard of the whole,
the better the score is going to be.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
I see Gary in twenty three. I mentioned at the
beginning you won the Paint Store It award. Such an
amazing honor to be given to you by your peers,
by the PJ Tour. When you look back at your career,
both on the course and off the course, Garret, what
are you most proud of? Yeah, that's a good question, Claude.

(53:53):
I you know, probably you know how you conducted yourself.
You know, I was a I was a big, big
Arnold Palmer fan when I was a kid. Actually got
to play with him in an exhibition when I was
seventeen years old, one of the greatest days of my
entire life.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
And I can just remember how he made.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
Me feel that day, and how he made everybody that
was around him feel. And that was always a big
goal of mine.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
You know.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
I used to get letters from notes from my pro
am partners saying, what a great day, appreciate it, thank
you very much for being so you know, kind with
your time and generous. And I would write him back
and I say, look, I just treated you the way
I'd like to be treated if the shoe was on
the other foot. I mean, you know, it's not that
big a deal. So how you know how I was

(54:44):
able to conduct myself, obviously, is a big part of it.
Peter Jacobson summed it up really nicely too me And
Peter's a former pain Steward Award winner too, and he goes,
you know, you play your way into the Hall of Fame,
but your peers vote to you as the pain Steward
Award winner, So you know, to be thought of that
highly by your peers, uh, you know, for a long career.

(55:05):
I mean I say, I played fifteen or sixteen years
and did television for you know, another thirty two, so
you know, it was almost a fifty year career involved
with a PGA tour. And so to be able to
be thought of that way by your by your peers is,
as I said at the acceptance speech that night, it
was clearly the highlight of my career.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Wow, it's been so cool to talk to you. You know,
I missing you and yeah, no team. Honestly, I think
the game, you know, from a TV standpoint, from a
broadcast standpoint, is lesser without you on the broadcast weekend
and week out like you were for NBC. So it
was just so special and and you know, I got

(55:43):
to watch Sunday unfortunately DJ missed the cut and I'm
sitting there watching the whole broadcast and I was like, man,
it's an old school US Open, and it's an old
school we got. We got Roger and Gary back. It
was great. Yeah, great talking to you Gary, and hopefully
we will get to see you against soon. But thanks
for everything you do, and like I said, you've been

(56:04):
such a part of the broadcast, part of golf over
the last you know, twenty thirty years, and I sure
as hell miss you.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Well, I appreciate that, Claude. I also want to say
thank you to you because you were one of the
guys and anytime I needed some information about any one
of your players and I would shoot a text to you,
and even if it was in the middle of a telecast,
I would get a response back right away saying, you
know DJ's working on this, or this is a new
putter in his bagged today, or Brooks is doing this,

(56:34):
and you know it helped make the broadcast better when
I can pass along information like that. So appreciate that
you were a big help to me in my career.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Well, you were one of the best, and we really
appreciate it some of it. Butch comes to you most
every week, Rate review, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts.
It's the son of a Butch pupcast