Matt Gallant

Claude welcomes instructor Matt Gallant to the podcast for a conversation about the fine line between good and great players. Matt shares lessons from his own journey as both a competitor and coach — from facing Brandt Snedeker in high school to now teaching at The Floridian. They discuss the mental edge that separates elite golfers, why pros constantly tweak their swings, and the importance of balancing technical knowledge with on-course instincts. Plus, Matt and Claude reflect on the shared challenge — and joy — of a game that’s never easy to master.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's the son of a glitch podcast. I'm your host,
Claude Hormon. Before we get to it, this episode is
being brought to you by Platform Golf, the first of
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(00:48):
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Matt I thought it'd be a good idea to kind
of talk about today about this kind of balance between
kind of coaching and playing. And I know there's a
lot of people that listen to the podcast that are
instructors and stuff like that, but I never played competitive golf.
At any level. I mean, I'm talking about that a lot,

(01:09):
and I think that that hurts me in a lot
of ways because I didn't have a competitive background like
a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
I mean, you've been teaching now with us for how.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
Long now eight years?

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Eight years you caddied here at Floridian, but you've been
now trying to be in the instruction space now for
almost a decade. But you were a player, and I think,
like a lot of people that are in the golf business,
you play as long as you can competitively, junior golf,
high school golf. You were lucky to play Division one
college golf, and then you tried to play professionally, right

(01:42):
your goal was to be a professional golfer. And now,
like a lot of people, you're in the instruction space,
but you're also still trying to play. And why is
still trying to compete important to you as a person.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
I think it helps me become a better coach, you know.
I think right now, what I've noticed is recently it's
helped me feel more connected to the players that I coach,
because I coach mostly competitive players at all levels. So
it's always a good reminder to feel what it's like
being back under the gun and what they're going through
when you're talking to them and when you're coaching them.

(02:22):
I think it's good to be able to see that.
It took me a long time from coming from the
playing side to the coaching side to be able to
decipher what I'm actually gaining from the playing part, because
I think I would take my own game too seriously
where I think it would affect my coach in a
negative way, because if I wasn't playing well, then I
thought I wasn't going to be coaching well. But I'm
able now to kind of see what I'm going through

(02:43):
and how that can relate to the players that I
do coach, and I feel like I'm more connected to them.
I'm more in the arena with them, and I can
kind of help them go through some of the things.
And I've obviously not making it, have failed way more
than I've succeeded, and luckily, somehow I've been able to
learn from those failures to help other players hopefully sidesteps
some of those things or help them get better with it.

(03:04):
So I think the connection thing is probably the best
thing that take me.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Back to you as a sixteen year old, You're living
in Nashville, Nashville, and the goal was to be so
then you're just kind of starting your kind of high
school golf kind of career. So the goal was to
play high school golf with the ultimate goal going and
playing Division I college. Right.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, I looked past that at that age. I mean
I was looking at the FJ Tour. I wish I
would have spent more time, like focusing on what I
need to do in school. But obviously I wanted to
go play college golf, but it was not something I
was too concerned with. I was looking past that. Even
when I got to school, I was kind of trying
to get through that so I could go try to
play golf, not really wanting to be at school at

(03:47):
the time. I was so at sixteen, I'm just working.
I'm fully into it. I'm just it's all I do.
It's play golf.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
We have an office here at the Florid in when
you walk in and on the wall and the office
or are pictures of all of the players that my
dad and I have worked with that have won tournament.
And you were sitting there one day. It was back
when my dad was working with brand Snedeker, who you
grew up with and played a lot of junior golf with.
And you sat there and you looked at these pictures
of Brent and you're like, that guy kicked my ass

(04:14):
my entire career. When you look back at someone like
a brand Snedeker who went on to do amazing things,
I always think it's important when you look back at
data points in your life to have kind of markers.
Right everybody. I would say to junior golfers, everybody wants
to be Rory McElroy and stuff. But I think specifically
with all the academies that I have around the world,

(04:34):
I think it's important to have someone from your home country,
but for someone like you, someone from your specific area
in town. So when you look back at a player
like brand Snedeker and stuff that you were playing junior
golf with, Brandt went on to go to Nashville, stayed
in the state. I went to Vanderbilt, which is in Nashville,
and played college golf there, stayed in the state of Tennessee.

(04:58):
You went to the University of Tennessee and then went
to Austin p When you look back at Brant's junior
golf career and how that kind of went forward. What
was different do you think about what he did versus
what you did. Was it a talent level, was it
something else? But when you look back at that, did

(05:18):
you think Bran Sneddecker would become the player? I mean,
we just saw him. He's a vice captain of the
Ryder Cup. He was Brooks's partner at hazel Teine FedEx cut.
All the things that Brant was able to do as
a player, did you see any of that when you
were growing up.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
You saw the ability of a person to score with
whatever they could do. Because he wasn't the best ball
striker at the time. He was obviously an amazing putters.
What everybody's seen on tour, that's the same player, you know,
who's gotten better at the other aspects of the game.
But his just determination to get it done with whatever

(05:52):
he's got. So as a junior, you just would go
play with him and by the end of the round, you're like, okay, Brent,
would you shoot seventy one? He's like sixty six. You know,
it's like okay, you did that again. It was just
he just beats you consistently with you know what you
felt like something you could do. So I think for him,
like he watched him progressively through college pretty much as
junior year, start getting to a place that was, you know,

(06:13):
elite when you won the public links, you know, and
played the Masters and through. But for me, it kind
of just showed me. Okay, I was neck and neck
kind of with this guy for the most of the
time and even into five when I was playing some
corn Forveriry tour. He was on the corn Fverirry Tour
and I was playing. In some terms he was doing well.
Like that kind of kept me kind of thinking I
can keep doing this, probably longer than I should have, right,

(06:35):
And that's the problem with golf is like you can
do it longer than you probably should, and it's in
a good way, in a bad way and a good way.
It's kept me where I'm at and I luckily have
found you guys and was in the right place right
time to be able to run with what you guys
have given me. But had I not stuck it out,
maybe I would have done something else and I would
not be in the position I'm at. So it's a
good and bad It kind of puts your life back

(06:56):
if you don't make it, but it also can present
you with opportunities that you can take advantag.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
So even at that young age, you know, brand Stenderker
was renowned for being one of you know the best
pure putters, right, but even in junior golf, high school
golf and stuff, he was in a putting was his
calling card even back then.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, I think he just kind of could get up
and down and he would make putts on you, and
he just would kind of not hit it great and
he would just make putts. All of a sudden, he's
making that twenty thirty. Remember how Speeth was like, you know,
that's how That's how Seneker was And you're like, well
he got lucky and did that to you today. Well
he just did it to ten straight days.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
In a row.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
So I think at a certain point it stops becoming
luck and it starts becoming you know, a career. When
you win the FedEx Cup and you go on to
do what you're doing there nine times. I think he's
one on tour and forty million dollars, So I think
he's better than luck.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
When you look back at high school golf and what
you thought it took to be good at the next level. So,
you know, when we're looking at competitive golfers, and it's
something that that we and you and I talked to
competitive golfers a lot, is Okay, you're at one level,
but everybody that's a competitive golfer is trying to get
to that next level. So in high school, if you're

(08:03):
lucky enough to be a good player, you're probably gonna
you're probably going to play some level of college golf.
But the holy grail of college golf is to play
in a big D one Division one college golf program.
When you were in high school, what did you think
was going to get you to play good at the
college golf level? And what were you surprised at in

(08:26):
how it was different.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
I think what I thought was going to help me
at the college level was kind of the same thing
when I was in college. I thought it helped me
at the professional level. I thought it had everything to
do with getting your technique better. So I went down
on you know, at a certain point, like high school,
you can outwork everybody and do that and still beat people.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
And if you're a decent I mean, if you just
hit it halfway decent in high school, given the depth
of high school golf unless you're going to one of
the powerhouse, you know, high school golf programs. But most
of the guys that go play Division one college golf,
I would say, are the best player from their high school,

(09:05):
one of probably the best players their high school. The scene.
You've won a bunch of tournaments. Did you win a
lot of tournaments as a junior?

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, I won a lot of junior tournaments, a lot
of high school tournaments. Lost to the state in state
to Brant every year. But you know, yeah four all
playoff our junior year and then our our lives took
completely different directions. So no, but I want a lot
of junior tournaments, and and uh, I want a lot
of I want a lot of college tournaments. And you know,
I think, going back to you know what you said,

(09:33):
I I think I just thought I had to always
be more, you know it never need it need to
be better, I need to be more. I think I
always lost track of just playing my own game and
what I got and doing. And when we go back
to Brant, I think Brant was elite at playing what
he had. You know, he worked hard, but he was
a great putter, and he just played to that. I
was like, I'll break it all down and keep trying

(09:54):
to fix it until it's until then I've missed your
whole miss my whole opportunity to play. So I think
I see that a with players that don't make it.
You know, you never think you're good enough, so you
kind of keep rebuilding and rebuilding, trying to get better,
and then you never.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Make it, and then the other thing, Matt, and we
go through this. But you have kids that, like yourself,
had success as a high school golfer. You won tournaments
as a high school golfer, you did well in regionals
and state. You were probably on a team that won regionals,
and a lot of guys that played Division one college golf, Yeah,
they won their high school golf team, won regionals every year,
they won state for four years. They probably won state

(10:30):
at least the state championships at least once. Right, So
you think you get to the college golf. But we
have so many parents that come to us after their
children have really good high school golf careers on the
men's and the women's you know side, if they don't
win a tournament their freshman year, if they don't qualify

(10:51):
for those first tournaments in the fall. The parents freak
out because they're used to seeing their kids win tournaments.
They're used to their children winning. The balance of winning
a lot, like you said, you won a lot in
high school, you won college golf tournaments. That doesn't translate

(11:11):
to the next level of professional golf because there are
people playing professional golf that weren't a fourth winning, that
weren't four time All Americans at Stanford, Oklahoma State, the
Big Texas, the big programs. So the jump, then, Matt,
from college golf to what you experienced when you tried

(11:34):
to play, and I think it would be safe to
say there are thousands of guys like you were journeymen,
many tour guys. You were trying to find that that foothold,
that kind of that base camp on a tour somewhere,
which is just so difficult to do. So that next

(11:56):
jump from the college level to the pro level. You
had success as a junior golfer, as a high school golfer,
you had some success as a college golfer at Division
I programs, and then you didn't have a lot of
success as a professional. What do you feel like was

(12:17):
different And if you had to go back and do
it again, knowing all the things you know, now, what
would you change and what would you try and do differently?

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Well, I would have got sober in two thousand, right
when I started college instead of twenty sixteen. But I
think the is when I turned pro. For no, I didn't.
I just kind of happened to do it what you
do in golf. But I turned pro and four and
then five my first year actually had success and I

(12:48):
got into some Cornfair events and I played well. And
then it was after that year where I decided I
watched these players do what they're doing, I need to
rebuild and rebuild, and that if I could go back
and do anything, I would go back and I would
just play my game because actually starting out, like I
don't think I had any expectations. So I had kind
of exceeded what I thought I could do immediately right away.
And then I was like, oh, well now I'm kind

(13:09):
of here. I have to do this so I couldn't
deal with that pressure in my state that I was
back then. So the jump actually surprised me early on
because I was like, oh, these I know that guy's name,
I know that guy's name. I'm actually competing with him
and doing well, what do I need to do to
beat them? And then you know, as opposed to trusting
that what I'm doing, what I am is good enough,
I didn't believe that, And I think that's what separates

(13:29):
a lot of the players that make it don't make
as well as like the just that deep down self
belief to that no matter what you play good or
bad today, you're still amazing golfer, as opposed to if
you play good or bad today I played bad. I'm
not an amazing golfer. I'm not a good person. And
I mean it kind of goes so deep that it's
it doesn't allow you to do that. So I had
an interesting start to it. After that first year, it
was more of a struggle. It was a struggles, you know.

(13:51):
It was I guess I only played two years before
I started working here, and then I kind of try
to play throughout being here a little bit. But it
was like I'd never really had any success after that
first year. I haven't played well since two thousand and five.
So when you say I'm still trying to play, I
think that used very lightly. I'm more coaching and trying
to figure it all out. Still a little bit.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, I think it's very commendable with you know is
you know you will work here at the Floridian. You
will work basically the son. You're here before the sun
comes up, you're here when the sun's going down. But
the fact that you will then with a wife and
a young daughter and a new family, you will take

(14:34):
time away from You'll take no days off and the
one day off a week you have, you'll go play
a minor league tournament down here.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah, my wife loves that in South Florida, which a
lot of you know players do the thing that I've
said about not changing things.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
I remember we were at Memorial and I said dinner
with Adam Scott and Oklahoma State, Chris van Tura, Vic,
Matt Wolf, Zach Bowsher, who's going to play on corn
for his here. They just won the national another national
championship at Oklahoma State, and I think some of the
finalists for the Nicholas Award were at Memorial that week

(15:12):
and Wolf he was there and I had dinner with him.
I had dinner with Adam Scott and we were talking about,
you know, this young crop of players coming out, and
I said to Scudy, what do you think about you know,
Matt Wolf was going to turn pro that summer. I said,
what do you think and he said, well, in an
unbelievable college career, like I'm like, he won a lot, right,
and he was the superstar of his first team All American.

(15:34):
I mean, he was a stud. He and Victor Hovlin Morikawa,
they were the guys that were playing in a bunch
of pro tournaments then. And I said to Adam, I said,
what do you think his chances are to make it,
you know, to get some status in the limited starts
he's going to have. And he said, well, let's look

(15:55):
at what he's probably going to get into. So he's
probably going to get into some of He'll probably get
in the Deer. His agents can get him into John
Deer because he signed with Wasserman. They were looking after
Ricky Fowler and stuff so they could get guys into tournaments.
He was probably gonna get maybe get some sponsors, invites
to like some not big big superstar fields, but like
Rocket and maybe three M and stuff like that. And

(16:17):
I'll never forget this. And Scutty said, you know, obviously
I've watched his game. He's good enough to maybe win
one of those based off of the success that he's had,
and if he does, he's just going to think it's
normal because he had success at the junior level, he
had success at the high school level. Then at arguably

(16:40):
they're the defending national champions Oklahoma State. They are the
juggernaut of college golf. If you're a Division one college golfer,
everybody in the world wants to go to Oklahoma State, right,
they have something there in the water. He was a
winner there, They won the national championship. So when Scutty's
brain was he said, I kind of did that. He said,

(17:00):
you know, I had a pretty good amateur career, won
some tournaments and then I kind of won early in Europe.
He won in South Africa. It wasn't a superstar tournament,
but he said, in my mind, I just thought I
connected the dots and said, yeah, I've never really stopped winning.
So for a kid like Matt Wolfe, I mean, what
do he win is like fourth tournament? He won? Three
em he won like a third or fourth tournament. He

(17:21):
had less than twenty competitive PGA two rounds and he
was already a winner, had a chance to go on
and duel with Bryson in a major at wingfoot, but
that jump to where success at one level then you
have success at the next level, and then you don't,

(17:42):
whereas some guys they just keep having success. How much
of that would you say, once you turn pro and
you are now a professional golf how much of it
met do you feel the pressure is mental as much
as it is the physical and the technical playing of

(18:04):
the game.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
All of it is once you get elite kind of
in college. I think as you go forward, it's all
mental at that point. That's why I think you see
the jump happen so fast for a lot of these guys.
Once they believe that they're supposed to win, they go
immediately win. Now when that changes in their head, how okay,
now I'm a winner, and now I have to do
this different than you start seeing the people come back.

(18:25):
Watch what happens when a lot of the guys win
a major earlier in their career. Right, most of them
don't kind of start. They usually go through a little
bit of a stumble, then they kind of figure it out.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Hey, there are guys that have won major championships that
have never won another golf job.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, So I just think it's like you feel like
you have to do something different as opposed to I
just think the players that are consistently on the names
that you know, they're mentally better than everybody else. I
don't think you're looking at players up and down the road.
There's your outliers, but most of them are the same.
They all have the same physical capabilities. They can all
hit the ball solid, they can all put they can

(18:58):
all chip. The separator is the mental edge, and I
just think that's where you that's whether you either progress
or you don't. And for me, I never progressed. And
I think that's the same when you look at any
of the players that win all over the world but
can't get to the next level anyway. It's just it's
it's a mental thing. Who's mentally tougher, who's got a
good team around them, who's able to listen to the team,

(19:18):
who's able to make good decisions? You know? It separates.
You can actually definitely tell if someone's not doing that,
they're not making good decisions, they don't have a good team,
you know. And and so I think a lot of
it just is it's sort of built throughout your whole life.
Is how well you how well is your your coaching
structure throughout your whole life? Are you able to kind
of uh be self aware enough to make smarter decisions

(19:39):
that put you down this road instead of that road?
And then if you can, then all of a sudden
you can make you know yourself all of a sudden.
It's momentum. Momentum puts you where you need to be,
and you get on the wrong side of the momentum, and.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
So you're you're struggling. You know, you had a two
year kind of pro mini tour career before you decided, Okay,
I need to maybe get a real job for whatever reason.
It was at that point where brand Snedeker's career continues
to accent. There was no surprise from you as his
career continued to assent, right, you weren't surprised at all

(20:13):
based off of what you saw.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
No, not after his what he did in in uh
not six on corn Ferry Tour and then he wins
wind him I think he's O seven and uh you know,
I think he just kind of kept getting better. He
was always kind of like around in tournaments and because
he's a great putter and chippers, So no, I think
it just kind of just kept kind of getting better.
And I think that's I did look back a lot
of times, and just you take for granted when you

(20:37):
play junior golf, high school golf, college golf, you turn pro,
you keep going. If you just keep going and you
figure out a way to keep going, I think that's
kind of how you make it. And if you asked
me earlier, what cald I go back, if I could
have figured out I couldn't do this back in the
day because I was just a nightmare. But if you
if I could have figured out how to keep going
through seven eight oh nine, I think a lot of

(20:58):
things would have had have been different for that to
have happened. But that was where once you kind of
fall off the momentum train and the train's gone, it's
hard to catch back up to that train because once
you kind of get you can see players when they
get later in their career, when they kind of their
skills start to missing a little bit, but they they
don't play as much. Life comes in and they you
know they're not they lose a little bit of that edge.
And these players nowadays are just going to beat you up.

(21:18):
So yeah, I could tell Brent was just continuing to
stay on the train and the train was moving in
the right direction. You know. I remember one time, I
think it was one of the worst days of my life.
I remember I was at I was at Frederica. I
think I was going out on a loop as a caddie,
I think for about one hundred and sixty dollars. The
same day, Brant won the FedEx Cup for twelve point

(21:41):
five million dollars, and I remember looking at that and
sing like, you know, this is you made a lot
of bad decisions.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
You had the white jumpsuit on and yeah it.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Is not not working. He's got a big check. Yeah
he's got the big check. And I think I think
a lot of the big changes I used to make.
And I was listening to a podcast you did with
Rumford and he was talking about something that really hit
home with me. Is about knowing your lane, about knowing
what kind of player you are and if you could
know that, Like if I could have known, Okay, Matt,
you could possibly be a seventy five to one fifty

(22:14):
guy if you just on the PGA tour, on a
PJ tour, if you get sober, you get a good coach,
you get a good therapist, you walk a clean line
that's as good as I was always under the depression.
Like if I rebuild, rebuild and do this and just
go to these extremes, I could be the best. And
I don't think looking back now that that was for me.
I could think I could get in a tournament and

(22:35):
contend and maybe win, but if I could have known
my lane. And I don't think anyone knows their lane
where like they should. The people that I do think.
You look at those guys that are on the tour
for the fifty to one hundred every year and they're
never going to go higher, but they're always there. I
think they just tend to be more self aware of
their lane. And I think me, if I would have
been able to do kind of what he was saying,

(22:57):
I think that was something that I could have looked at.
But I was and capable of making any good decisions.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Why do you think is golfers? I always say this
about Tiger Woods. I think the only negative thing about
Tiger and everything he did the Tiger era and all
of that is from a golf swing standpoint.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
He made it okay but somewhat sexy and fashionable to
kind of just completely overhaul and change your entire golf swing.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
You said that, You've said that. You know, we've been
talking now for less than a half an hour. You've said,
I tried to change everything. I tried. Why do you
think so many competitive golfers at the elite competitive level,
but also just at the regular normal club level. You're
playing in, you know, a monthly metal, you're playing in

(23:51):
the club championship. You like to play in tournaments, maybe
you like to play in amateur tournaments and stuff. I
was just up at Oakhill Country Club last week for
the Jonah Williams Big you know Golf Invitational. Bunch of
guys that had played on there, you know, had you know,
played Division one college golf status. You know, some of
them tried to play some really really good looking golf swings.

(24:15):
So for those guys, the holy grail is to qualify
for the mid am, to maybe win a mid am tournament.
But why do you think so many golfers across the
board are so willing to press the eject button and
just say, okay, now I'm just going to bulldoze the house.

(24:35):
Because there's a couple of rooms that I don't like
and rather than just maybe kind of living with the
design of this house and making it better, No, we're
just going to bulldoze the whole house. You know, I
can't afford a new one, but we're just going to
bulldoze it, build one new. Why do you think we
do that as golfers.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
Well, in our era when I grew up, it was
Tiger and you've saw this is what I know, what
I'm doing to get better. This is what he's doing
get better. And he just won the Masters by twelve
and now he's won, you know, and then and it
produced what he did at the Open, and now he's
going to do it again. So you just felt like
that's kind of how you had to go about it,
you know. David Gossa, I think he went through that

(25:13):
same thing where he.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Gossip for people not knowing when the US Amateur played
at the University of Texas was a stud.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, best player I've ever seen growing up, Way better than.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Ran of those guys that was supposed to be this
kind of next great generation of players. He was supposed
to be a guy that everybody was kind of pegging
to be. Kind of what Matt Kutcher was, which is,
win a bunch of tournaments, play on a bunch of
Ryder Cups and Presidents Cup, win a bunch of money.
And you talk about a guy that went down the

(25:46):
abject rabbit hole of trying. You said you saw him
recently in the last you know, four or five years,
and he talked about that. What did he say about
all of the things that he tried to do from
a competitive standpoint.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Well, he grew up, been hit just a nice sling
and draw and he could control it and was the
prettiest shot you've ever seen in your life of a
good short game, great putter. And then eventually he won.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
US to stud it.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
He won his first round too, he was number one
in the country, won the USM going away by ten
I think ten and eight. And then he decided he's
going to go work on hitting fades because he needs
to hit a fad if he's going to be on tour,
and he's got to, you know, really get better. That's
that was his way of getting better. And then he
just then you lose your confidence and then you can't
Once you lose that, you can't get back.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
So again that thing that we hear all the time
from players that are trying to play. I think a
lot of this comes from kind of the Hank Haney
nine ball ten ball have to have all the shots
that Tiger Woods had, and what I've talked about for
for years, not only two players, but on the pod
that I think you can run, you can go down

(26:49):
the trap of Okay, I've gotten this far and in
order to get to the next level, now I need
to have everything right now. I need to have all
the shots. I need to have everything, which yeah, in.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Theory, answer though, that's why you'd go down that hole
because you think you have to have all.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
That, but you really don't. I mean, think about how
many guys that I mean, I always say this, you
can go down the top of the old world golf
rankings before all this bullshit that we've got now. But
the old world golf rankings five five years ago. The
people in the top ten in the world, they are

(27:29):
defined by their ball striking, in the shape they hit.
And out of those guys, there aren't a lot of
guys that have all the shots. I mean, the guys
that I have seen in my lifetime. I'm fifty six
years old, I've been on tour forever. But of the
modern generation of the players that had everything that I've

(27:50):
been lucky enough to see up close. Obviously Tiger right,
I mean you had all the shots. Ernie El's kind
of had all the shots. Greg Norman had all of
the shots. Right. Watching Greg Norman's warm up back in
the day and the late eighties, early nineties to this day,

(28:13):
I've never seen anything like it. It was like watching
Picasso paint. Every single shot he was going to use
on the golf course that day, he would hit them
with all of his irons. He had high draws with
his irons, he did low draws with his irons, He
hit high fades with his irons. He did that with
every single club in the back. So for those guys,

(28:34):
it's an embarrassment of riches. But Colin Montgomery, Tom Layman,
Colin Montgomery, prolific winner. To me, one of the greatest
ball strikers I've ever seen, Just fades. That was it. Fades,
Tom Layman, number one in the world British Open, big
high draws, David Duval right, the list is endless of

(28:57):
players that were kind of one dementia and so if
you had that to do over again, would you go
back and just say, Okay, I am just going to
become one dimensional and ride this strength and this is
the only thing I do.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
It required a lot more than I had to. You know,
I gather from that back in the day. I had
great coaching growing up, but it's like I was too
stubborn to listen to anybody. And I see that a
lot with golfers like me that don't make it. You know,
they'll come in. I watch a lot of these pros
come in take lessons from you, and you make it
as simple as possible, and then I'll see that person
down the road and they've overcomplicated the crap out of it.
So I think the quality of coaching that you think

(29:42):
coaching has gotten better, I think coaching has gotten a
lot better.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
I think, how do you think technology has helped in
the last decade instructors get better? And how has technology
helped the player?

Speaker 3 (29:59):
I think as far as like at a tour level,
distance control with shots is about your all you're looking
at right, It's like the numbers that the ball's going.
If you're talking about more amateur golf and coaching, I
think a lot of times you can throw up just
make this look this way, like, okay, the path path
numbers kind of can help or attack angle numbers can help.
It just helps simplify and help kind of highlight what

(30:20):
you're trying to get them to do. I think it
makes it easier. I think it can make it more
complicated if you dive too much into it, but I
think it does help you get where you're going. Like
with us with swing Catalyst, if we can have someone
see immediate feedback of what we're trying to get them
to do and that they're actually doing it, it makes
it go by that much faster. They believe it quicker,
they own it faster, and it helps get to the

(30:41):
answer faster. So I think it really just makes things simple.
But it's like at a competitive level, I think distance
control and numbers wise, it's like it's crazy how good
how good that is. And it's like if you want
to isolate one thing at a time and work on
I think it makes you It helps kind of kind
of can pinpoint your practices a little bit quicker with
that when you're doing that as opposed to being out
there all day looking at things.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
So one of the things that people are always really
surprised at when I say that, I you know, obviously
I've been incredibly lucky. I don't think if I I mean,
there's no chance I get to where I am today
unless Butch Harmon's my father, right, the doors that were
open for me, but also that education of being able
to just having no playing background. I just sat for

(31:26):
hours and watched him give lessons to you know, in
the nineties, Steve Elkington, Greg Norman Davis loved the third
I watched my uncles give lessons to Jeff Sluman, to
Curtis Strange, to Lanny Watkins. So I just watched the
best players in the world get taught and watched what

(31:47):
they did. And I think without that, there's absolutely no
chance that I ever reach the level of success that
I've been lucky enough to have. So when you do
continue to go, now, how do you balance with or
because it's impossible. First of all, I'm a terrible golfer, right,

(32:08):
you know, my body's bad. I'm not a good golfer,
and it's very hard for me to go play golf
because I have so much shit in my head, of
so much information, so many thoughts running through my head. Basically,
twenty four to seven on a regular basis, Like I
can't turn my brain off under normal circumstances, right, just

(32:31):
in daily life, like I am incredibly high strung, I
am never off. And so when I go play golf, one,
I'm a bad golfer. I've always been a bad golfer,
and so it's hard for me to go play for
someone like you that had success. Right when you do
go play, that balance of balancing the information that you know,

(32:58):
obviously the technical information that you know, but also all
of the stuff that we're lucky enough to know now
through experience, through working around good players. You know, when
I look at your scores, you'll still have struggles, right,
you still have bad stretches of holes on the golf course.
The balance of playing with the technical knowledge of what

(33:23):
you know. Talk me through what that's like.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
It took me a long time to just be able
to separate that. I don't think about any of it
now when I play, and I you know, I use
my playing a bit to to test, you know, kind
of how I coach a little bit, try to test things.
But when I'm playing tournaments, there's zero thoughts of what
I'm anything technical, you know, I'm focused on trying to
play golf, trying to walk the line. To be honest

(33:49):
with you, I like to because I want to be
an example for players that I coach. So I have to.
I can't coach something and then go out there and
act like this, you know. So I'm really focused hard
on how I'm holding myself. I'm focused hard on decision making,
trying to make It's a.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Little bit like being an out of shaped trainer, right.
It's harder to listen to someone tell you to get
in shape and eat right when they don't like our
boy Pierre right with six percent body fat, mister standard.
I mean if he tells me to so like like
my trainer, like the guy's unit, right, I mean he
like works out three times a day, you know, meal prep,

(34:23):
I mean, doesn't drink, I mean everything. So if he
tells me to do something in the gym, I listen
because I know he, like you said, he walks the walk,
He walks the line. Is that something that is important
for you as an instructor, but also as a coach
and as a mentor to be able to say to
your players, hey, listen, I'm still trying to figure this out.

(34:47):
From a playing standpoint, I still struggle with you. Do
you think that makes it easier for you as an
instructor to kind of connect on a human personal level
with your students.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
Yeah, I mean I know what they're going through as
a player, you know, I think that.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
I think that's my Dad's My dad's secret source was
he played. He played in majors. He won a one
day PGA Tour event back when the PJ Tour had
one day PJ Tour event. So all of the guys
that have ever gone to see my dad know that
he was a player. And so I've always thought that
that was one of the benefits. You know when whenever

(35:25):
you've kind of gotten down on yourself or said, hey,
you know what can I change better? I'm like, listen,
the fact that we've got somebody on our staff that
played Ryan Chrysler, who I've had on the pod, you know,
r CE. Ryan played Division one college golf at SMU.
You know, when when I look at a lot of players,
Cameron McCormick played Division one college golf at Texas Tech.

(35:48):
So there are instructors that had good careers. There are instructors,
you know, Darryl Kessner is a great instructor deep Dell.
I mean, Darryl's played in PGA's and stuff like that.
So do you feel like that's something that's important for
you to be able to kind of show people and
show your students that you are kind of walking the

(36:09):
same path and line they are.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
Yeah, I think it's transitioned from you know, me wanting
to still prove myself as a golfer to now I
just enjoy it. And we've talked about this, and you've
told me this a bunch is like, you play golf
because you love to play golf. And I'm finally starting
to get to that point where I don't just feel
guilty when I don't like have it in me to
practice one day or whatever. But I definitely I like

(36:35):
to be able to connect with the players that I'm coaching,
knowing I'm still going through it, but also be able
to kind of we you know, get through the weeds
on everything that I know they're already going through that
I can kind of cut to the chase. So that's
what I think I can bring to it as a coach.
You know, I've watched you obviously a tremendous amount and
I think you're not playing is what gives you your
edge because of your obviously your unique circumstances that you

(36:59):
grew up in, but it actually gives you. You come
in without this bias of like you know this works,
this doesn't you do this or you don't. I mean,
that's what I've learned the most from you, because as
a player, someone who's an idiot and stubborn, they you think, okay,
that works, but I can also make this work. No, no, no,
no no, this is how it works. And I'm like,

(37:19):
I'll work hard enough to make this work. And I
watch you coach, I'm like, you just do that, and
I'm like, what about this? Just do that? And as
a player, you think I'm good enough to kind of
figure out that's why I think you know goes into
the changes and stuff and if I could look at
it more like you do. And that's what I try
to do as a coach and it's helped me become
a better coach and separate my playing because I don't.
I don't associate my playing anymore with my coaching, and

(37:41):
it used to. Now I just know it connects me
with the players. They know I play. I don't really
talk about it. I don't put anything out, but it
helps me in a different way. I think it used
to hurt me. I think it helps me now because
I've been able to be like, I know this works,
I'm just gonna go down this road, and if there's
a decision to make, I'm just gonna go down this road.
And that's what I've learned the most from you is
going to your lessons. I'm like, Okay, he sees one

(38:03):
thing and then they're just gonna do that one thing
and then they know that works. And if they decide
they're not going to do that thing, then there's nothing
you can do. It's not like you're gonna be like,
all right, we'll just do this while you'll wait till
they come back, and then you do that one thing again,
and then all of a sudden they start winning again,
and it's like, just do that one thing. I mean,
you've done it with me the last and I hate it.
I hated it initially because I would want to ask
you a question I knew I want to I wanted

(38:24):
an answer, and You're like, all right, so what are
you trying to do? And I'm like, I don't know.
I want to do something here, You're like, have out,
we start with what you're actually trying to do with
the golf ball, and I'm like, just all right, I quit.
You know, it's like I don't want to hear the
simple answer. And I think that's a big part of
the problem. And you probably coach players that just are

(38:45):
so simple minded and listen to you, and they do
it and then they end up doing really well, and
you can tell, like someone like me, it wants to
make it more complicated. I think I did that as
a player forever and that's what cost me a lot
of time. And then as a coach. Initially I thought
I would do some of the two, and it took
me probably, I mean, really my first three years. I
don't feel like I could get away from what I

(39:06):
thought as a player because you come in with these
biases which you never came in with. You knew this
black and white, this work doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
One of the things it's always helped me is I
never ever think golf is easy. Like I don't think
any of it is easy, because when I try and
do it myself, none of it's easy. And listen, I've
had great golf instruction from so I've had I've had
access to the best golf instructors on the planet, you know,

(39:34):
and golf to this day is a fifty six year
old distill difficult for me, so.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
I think, but players do can't. They can't get to
where they think it's easy. And if you're coming in
as a player to a coach, I've watched them like
I used to when I used to carry for one
of our members here, j C. Sneed used to help
them out all the time, and JC was one of
the best ball strikers of all time. And then the
guy would struggle and he'd be like, just do this,
and then you know, every area, yeahs so easy. You
just do this, and the guy's like, I can't do that.

(40:02):
And it's like, you know, it's funny. As a player,
you're just like, why don't you just do this? You know,
and the guy's like, I can't do that. So I
think I think having that perspective, and and you know
it's funny is when I used to take lessons, and
I would take lessons and if you gave me something
I did too easy, I was like, that's not enough.
Give me something that's hard. I want to struggle with this,
And I know sometimes you have to struggle with stuff

(40:24):
to get better. But as a coach, when I watch
somebody struggle with something, I think I'm doing something wrong
sometimes as opposed to like I've learned to just know,
let them struggle with what they're doing. Yeah, it's hard.
They're going to struggle until they get it, and if
you get in the way of that, you're you're getting
in the way of their progress. So I've kind of
learned to just you tell them what this is and
then you let them deal with it and you start
you see, you can see signs that it's right, but

(40:44):
like they're going to struggle, and that can't that can't
take away from the lesson. So you've kind of taught
me that too. So I mean I've learned. I mean,
I've been incredibly lucky without you guys. I don't know
where I'm at. I'm not anywhere, but it's it's uh,
it's all my playing in meeting the people I did
then golf got me to where I'm here. So I
can't say I hung in there too long because if
I didn't, I don't think I would have made it

(41:05):
back here. So I'm happy with everything that I've done.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
But you used to always say if he was working
on someone, I remember him saying to Tiger they were
trying to, you know, weaken his grip right and get
the club face a little bit more open and not
so shut at the top. And Butcher said, how's it feel?
And Tiger say, is pretty good? And but you said, well,
you're not doing it thing, yeah, because if it's a right,
if it feels super good early, you're not like making

(41:28):
the change. We always say that with grip changes, how's
the grip change? I mean, if you're making a grip change,
it needs to feel terrible. It needs to feel bad
for a while. Otherwise you're just going.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Back to Yeah, you're putting a band aid on you.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
You're going back to your You're you're trying it all
one and then it feels bad. So you're kind of
especially if you're trying to, you know, get that left hand,
if you're a right handed golfer trying to strengthen your
left hand, you get it over there and someone says
you've hit four or five balls, has a feeling, Oh,
it feels good, and you're like, dude, you're not even
doing it, it should feel horrendous.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
And now I used to I wanted that. I wanted
it to feel bad and that then you feel like
I was getting better. I could always because I'd go
work on it till it didn't and then I would
I would see that it would. But I think you
can take that too far too so as you know me.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
When you do play, whether it's recreationally or competitively. At
forty four so here in your mid forties, you've been
playing golf since you were nine nine, so you've had
a lifetime of golf when you do play, like I said,
both for fun and in competition, what is it that
you still love about the game of golf and playing

(42:35):
the game of golf?

Speaker 3 (42:40):
I think it it is that it's that how hard
it is. You know, it's just trying to trying to
still master something that you've spent your whole life trying
to master. And I think I've gone more towards just
enjoying the process, like and I think that's kind of
where I'm at now as a coach, because I want

(43:01):
to my whole goal of the last few years and
where I've started to really enjoy my golf is I
want to. I'm trying to figure out a way to
make it the most efficient thing possible so that I
can help players the best. And so I'm testing on
myself a lot of processes and ways to go. So
I really enjoy getting out there and just being able
to focus on the things that I'm trying to coach players.

(43:23):
So if I can focus on my process, have struggles, no,
I can stick with what I'm doing and see that
that works, It's easier for me to believe when I'm
telling players. So I think that's what I enjoy the most.
Now I think I don't. I don't necessarily enjoy competition,
you know, I like playing the game, but I like
the I like competition. But it's like I think I
just enjoy I enjoy just being out there and just

(43:46):
kind of seeing how it works and trying to just
kind of see how I can use it to help
other people. Now, if that it doesn't make sense, but
it's that's sort of my whole thing. It's like, I
just want to. I want to. I want to make
off easier and it's very hard, and I want to
find out the quickest ways to get there. It's kind
of like what Ryan's trying to do with everything, But
in my weird way, I'm just trying to do work,

(44:08):
test it more on myself, you know too, so I
can kind of help players, but it's it's just being
out there and enjoying the process of seeing myself improved
still at an older age, you know, and seeing if
I still can compete.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
You've mentioned the word process numerous times, and for you,
process for you means what, But what can other players listening,
golfers that are trying to get better having a process?
What does that look like and why is that important?

Speaker 3 (44:36):
So process for me is you're focused on things you
can control, right, You're focused on your breathing, You're focused
on decision making, you're focused on commitment. You're less focused
on outcome. So when you're focused on outcome, for me anyway,
it gets in the way of the flow of the process.

(44:58):
So if I I know that, if I focus on, Okay,
what's the number here, what's the wind doing? What's my target?
Where can I miss make a decision? Commit and go,
I know I have full control over that. And if
I do that, that tells me I was in a
good place on that shot. So that's process for me
is more focused on being in the present, focused on
what I can control, and not focus on what I can't.

(45:21):
So I was always focused on what I couldn't control,
you know. I would always get way ahead of myself
or way behind myself and focus on things that I
had no control over, and they would get in the
way of what's going on in the present. And that
was I think why I'm so adamant now about figuring
that part out, figuring out how to master the process,
figuring out the parts that that everything that draws me

(45:42):
into what I enjoy. Golf is stuff that it was
never very good at. So I was a basket case
mentally and life and golf and everything that I'm doing,
and I think that's what kind of drives me every
single day to figure out how to get better at that.
So the process for me is just like, make a
good decision, accept the outcome, Decide what the outcome gives
you based on the decision. Then refine the decision if

(46:04):
you need to. If that a good decision or a
bad decision, Okay, if that worked, then maybe it's a
good decision. Try it again if it works. So I
start to kind of optimize decision making based on processes.
So it's become I don't care about outcomes anymore. I
care about did I go out there and commit to
every shot? Did I? Did I get up today? Did I?
You know, I'm trying to be like in everything that

(46:24):
I'm doing every at all all the time, as opposed
to just everywhere else. My anxiety levels kind of you know,
gone down being like that, and it just helps me
kind of enjoy each day a little bit more, which
you know I don't do a great job of. So
I think it's I'm turned to corner this last few
months and it's really been helping me. But I love
That's that's process to me. It's control what you can

(46:45):
and don't and don't worry about what you can't.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
What do you say to the people that when we
say to someone that's trying to break one hundred for
the first time or ninety for the first time or
eighty for the first time, right, when we say to him, listen,
your process needs to be better, right, especially when you're
playing and they say, my golf swing's terrible. Right, what
I need to do is shank it. Least what I
need to do is top it. Least hit it fat

(47:10):
less right, you know, not hit toastling hooks that go
you know, fifty yards and then go into the left trees.
So that balance between process but also technique. How do
you feel like having a better process can help what

(47:30):
you're trying to do technically?

Speaker 3 (47:32):
I think you got to have the technique first. I
mean you got to be able to walk first. I
can't teach you all right when you're running. You're trying
to do this and you can't walk right. So you
have to be able to hit the ball. And so
once you get that, then I can start to work
on Okay, now that you can do this repetitively, here's
how we would bring that to the golf course. Here's
how we would refine that to where you could go.
But if you can't get the ball up in the air,

(47:53):
I think you got to look at what you're doing
to get the ball in the air first, and then
you go from there. So once you got the technique,
I think it's more a higher level you're looking at.
The process is going to help you more. But even
somebody shoots ninety can hit the ball right. Somebod who
shoes ninety can can can move the ball forward, they
can do what they're trying to do. So what you
can help that person has come up with a little
bit of a preshow routine, a little bit of a

(48:14):
process of how do you make better decisions based on
the shot that your play that you play. So say you,
I mean you've seen the members like, okay, you hit
a twenty yard slice. You could stand there on the range,
which you're not going to do and work on fixing that.
Or you could aim a little bit more left and
just play that shot and then break ninety and then
if you start getting really into it, we can work
on refining that. So it's like process in that case

(48:35):
would be Okay, you've got something that's repetitive, here's how
we bring that into shooting a score. So I think
the process is all about, you know, how you're going
to turn what they have into something that helps them
do what they're trying to do on the golf course.
More if they don't have anything, you can't have a
I topped the ball every single time. Okay, but you know,
how is your process?

Speaker 1 (48:54):
How's your breathing?

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Hey?

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah you did focus. You're gonna be commissioner target.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
Yeah, you're going saying, if that's how you're looking at process,
get in the air. Yeah you're not. I haven't a
shot off the ground. I've missed the ball three times. Yeah, okay,
but did you focus on the target?

Speaker 1 (49:10):
What was your thought process? You already were you?

Speaker 3 (49:13):
So I think you got to kind of know when
to kind of go about that. I think it's obviously
it's more helpful at at a higher level, but it
is helpful at every level. If you're kind of again
self aware where your lane is, where you're at. If
this is the player I am, and I'm not going
to practice much, then play the shot and stop going
to the range trying to do something you're not going
to do.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Let's go quick fire. If you're trying to break a
hundred for the first time, give me one thing that
you tell somebody. If you're trying to break one hundred
for the first time, what do you feel like is
some low hanging fruit to break a hundred?

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Try to make putts inside of five feet, like you know,
get eliminate. I would say eliminate three putts, but really,
if you can just make puts four feet and in
like you can, you can start elimiting some of those
three putts, and then I would say from there, it's
find something consistent that you can get off the tee
into play. Doesn't have to be in the fair way,
but just need to get something into play. If you
can get something into play and you cannot three put

(50:08):
I think you're gonna start doing a little bit better
with it.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Because obviously, working on your golf swing right and working
on your technique, you know, take some athletic ability, take
some physical ability, you know, take some exertion standing up there.
But putting, I think, for you know, if you're trying
to break one hundred, ninety eighty, even trying to break

(50:31):
power for the first time, I think putting is something
that is It doesn't take a lot of yo ball,
what's clubhead speed ball, speed smash factor, all of that stuff.
I think putting in short game are just so attainable
to improve, but it's something that nobody really wants to

(50:55):
try and or doesn't really like to spend time on.
Everybody wants to be on the driving rain and everybody
wants to improve the driver. Everybody wants to improve their
iron game. But I think for all of those breaking
one hundred, breaking ninety breaking eighty breaking poor. I think
putting in short game is such an easy way for
you to just take some stress off of the rest

(51:19):
of your game by saying to yourself, Okay, I've been
working on my putting. Yam still trying to break ninety
for the first time. Yeah, I'm still trying to break
a hundred. But I'm not going to let I'm not
gonna have a bad putting stroke from five feet right.
I'm not gonna have a massive out to in into
out hook path, slice path with my putter. My setup

(51:42):
isn't gonna be terrible. I'm gonna get into some decent
setup with my putting, some decent setup with my short game.
Do you think that's a good place to start.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Yeah, I was gonna say on top of that, it's
just like anything inside thirty yards if you can get
a shot that gets onto the solid onto the green, Ye,
get on the green and don't three putt. I think
that was like if you eliminate double chips, triple chip anything,
anything that you can get from the fair or fairway
or rough onto the green, and then you can two putt,

(52:15):
your scores will come down right away. I mean that's
obviously where you want to start is right around the greens.
If you could just have a remove all the driving
ranges and just have a green and then thirty yard
area where you could chip around, you'd start to see
people start shoot better scores because I think once you
get created around the greens, it kind of bleeds into
the rest of your game a little bit. So I
think you kind of get creative and you learn how
to actually shoot scores that way. So yeah, they be

(52:36):
on the green in one shot and then least two putt,
you know, at most two putt. You know, make make
putts inside of five feet helps with that a lot
for sure. So yeah that at every level hundred ninety
eighty seventy, you know, it's always the little things. And
no matter what level you're going at, you're looking at
like the the big the get the ball and play.
Stop missing greens with wedges, stop three putting. You know,

(52:56):
it's I don't think you tell you tell players at
one hundred and ninety eighty so Indie college, bro, it's
all the same same kind of thing. But yeah, the
simpler the better.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Lastly, you mentioned you made the decision to get sober.
Your life has really changed you know, I'm so proud
of you in the way that you've turned your life around.
But how much do you think the game of golf
and being around the game of golf has helped with
your sobriety and helped you make these changes that you've
you've made in your life.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
Definitely, I mean the I don't know, it's hard to
say I've aluady. I felt like when I got sober
this time, there was there was no really decision, it
just it was something that was there was no other option,
so when it happened, that was going to happen. But
something led me kind of around the golf, around you
and around Ryan back here. That I think is just

(53:46):
anytime I'm off, you guys put me back on. So
being around you guys, being around kids, being able to
help players, watch them get better is I think it
gets me up every day. It drives me. I you
mentioned I'm still trying to play. My heart is fully coach.
Like now I've kind of transitioned to where I'm just
fully coach. I love helping players. So I think as

(54:07):
far as that, like, it's almost like I don't have
a decision to make about drinking anymore. But like I
could never even think about it anymore because I'd be letting,
you know, everything I do down. So I think it's
it's basically given me, given me a life, it's given
me everything, So I think I owe it to that
to just walk the line and to go. And luckily,
I'm one of those people that kind of suffered enough

(54:28):
to where I got to a point that I wanted
to stop, and I was able to do it in
a way that it was the obsession was removed for me.
So I kind of look at myself every day as
being blessed with that because I've been through it for
fifteen years where I couldn't get to that point, so
I don't have to like battle with that. But I
know if I was not around this environment that I'm
at that I would be extremely difficult for me because

(54:48):
I'm able to come to a place every day that
I truly love and don't feel like I'm at work,
which I don't know. I can't imagine ever finding another
place like that. So you know, every day that I'm here,
I just am like I just want to be here
again the next day. That's why they'll take any days off.
But you know, my wife would wish I would take
more days off. I'm working on it. You tell me
every year, all right, this year you're going to take
one or two days off. I'm like, yell, right, got it.

(55:10):
And then I'm here Sunday Monday doing lessons and so.
But one of these years I will get to where
I'll take a few take it. I'll take a vacation
and spend some time with the family.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
I promise I will give you some time off to
take a vacation. Matt, great to talk to you. Like
I said, I'm proud of you. I think you're doing great,
and you're a hugely, hugely valuable member of our team
and someone who I have a tremendous amount of respect for,
not only in the game, but outside the game as well.
So thank you for talking to us today. Thank you

(55:41):
very much, some of which comes to you almost every week.
Thanks everyone for listening.