Ep 20: The Politics of Storytelling - Featuring Matthew Hatchette - Spolitics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Jameel Hill and welcome to politics and I heard
podcast and unbothered production.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Time to get spolitical.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
NFL free agency is hot and heavy, with teams spending
a massive billion dollars in one weekend by signing, resigning,
and giving contract extensions to a number of players. Devanta
Adams is set to join the Los Angeles Rams on
a two year, forty six million dollar deal. Cleveland resigned
defensive end Miles Geartt to a record contract extension that
makes him the highest.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Paid nine quarterback in league history.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Now correct me if I'm wrong, But wasn't this the
same Miles Garrett who requested a trade from the Browns
to a contender not too long ago? The Browns threw
an average salary of forty million per year at him,
one hundred and twenty three point five million in guaranteed
money and a no trade clause. And now he's back
to being team clete He's rich, He is rich, rich.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
He got his own money. And baby, when I say
you he's got his own money, I mean the boy
has got his own money.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Also shout out to Garri's agent, Nicole Lynn at Clutch
Sports y'all worked the Browns like it was the third
shift at the waffle house, but no fights, and y'all
got all of your teeth. But seeing these players enjoy
these multimillion dollar contracts and having the ability to use
their leverage to either stay in place depending on their
market value, made me think of the person who made

(01:30):
a lot of this possible, former Major League Baseball player
Kirk Flood. It's Flood who changed professional sports forever by
creating what we all know as free agency. Now, let
me give you the backstory on Kirk Flood. He was
a center fielder for the Saint Louis Cardinals, one of
the best in the game, having won seven straight Golden
Gloves at one point, and he also was a key

(01:50):
member of the cardinals nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty
seven World Series championship teams. Now, in nineteen sixty eight,
the Cardinals again appeared in the World Series, this time
against the Detroit Tigers. In the seventh inning of Game seven,
Flood made a critical error that many believe clinched the
World Series for the Tigers.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
And the Tigers now made their first threat with two
hour basis by cash and heart brings up this Grand Slam.
Testing Kim Off from He's had two homers and six runs.

Speaker 5 (02:25):
About it in.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
In the series, he had twenty one homers and let
his team and runs about it in.

Speaker 6 (02:30):
During the season with ninety He's.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
Had one out of nine against the pitching of Gibson,
and out was a home run. That was the only
run the Gibson's bre noted in this series.

Speaker 5 (02:49):
My Carver.

Speaker 4 (02:52):
And Gibson are not discussing the weather, which is beautiful.

Speaker 6 (03:01):
Arthur kicks the ball to all fields.

Speaker 7 (03:11):
Cry ball Flood.

Speaker 6 (03:12):
Pry almost thought he must touch him, but over his head,
who runs are gonna star? The same thing almost happened
earlier in the game that Jim Arthur, and now it
has happened to one of the greatest defensive center fielders
in baseball, her Flood when.

Speaker 5 (03:32):
He started off or something happened to his underputting watches.
Now he catches his faccine and he nearly fell downs,
and that cost him engaging the ball. But very rarely
has ever a misjudged the ball out there. But when
he strumbled on his way, it threw him out of
his path.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
He couldn't get back to bass Dale over his then
and the Tigers now have two runs in the seventh
and this all came after two outs.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Nobody eyes now.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
The Tigers went on to win the World Series, But
then things really got interesting.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
In the spring of the following year.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
After the World Series loss, Flood and the Cardinals had
a bitter contract negotiation. Flood held out during spring training
after demanding to receive a ninety thousand dollars contract, a
pretty healthy sum in those days. Flood got his money,
but management remained bitter because in those days they weren't
used to players exercising any leverage. In October of nineteen

(04:27):
sixty nine, the Cardinals traded Flood to the Philadelphia Phillies,
who were reportedly offering Flood a ten thousand dollars raise
that would put his salary at one hundred thousand dollars now.
Flood wasn't interested and refused to report to Philadelphia. Instead,
Flood wrote in one hundred and thirty four word letter
to Major League Baseball Commissioner Bowie Kon explaining why he
wouldn't concede to the trade. Flood wrote, after twelve years

(04:50):
in the major leagues, I do not feel that I
am a piece of property to be bought and sold
irrespective of my wishes.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
I believe that any system which produces.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
That result violates my ba basic rights as a citizen
and is inconsistent with the laws of the United States and.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Of several states.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Flood was calling Major League Baseball's reserve clause into question.
Under the reserve clause, the only way a player could
leave a team is if he was traded or released
without the ability to make themselves available on the open market.
Players weren't paid what they truly were worth according to
market value because.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
They had no market they could explore.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Now, the reason Major League Baseball didn't have to compete
for players is because the Supreme Court ruled in nineteen
twenty two that baseball was exempt from anti trust laws,
which are in place to promote competition, prevent monopolies, price fixing,
and generally discourage anti competitive behavior. Baseball is currently the
only major sport with an anti trust exemption. Now, Bowie
Kun refused to grant Flood's request, so Flood filed a

(05:49):
lawsuit against the Commissioner and Major League Baseball, seeking to
overturn Major League Baseball's anti trust status. Now, the Major
League Baseball Players Association also voted to Backflood and helped
pay his legal but as you might imagine, Flood's resistance
did not go over well with the establishment, the public,
and certainly not the media. Here's Flood being interviewed by
renowned sportscaster Howard Cosel, who asked Flood to explain how

(06:11):
he could be paid so much money yet still be
so unhappy with his situation.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
The problem it's been written, Kurt, that you're a man
who makes ninety thousand dollars a year, which isn't exactly
slave voyages what you're talk tonight.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
Well, Howard, a well paid slave is nonetheless a slave.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Now, even though it was Cosel that mentioned slavery, you
probably can imagine how poorly Flood's comments went over with
the fans, owners, and the media. Here's author Brad Snyder,
who wrote a book about Flood that is aptly titled
Well Paid Slave, and historian Gerald Early on.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
The backlash Flood received.

Speaker 8 (06:48):
That slave analogy pissed off a lot of people. Kurt
was making seven times what the average American was making.
The thought that someone like that could be a victim
of injustice didn't resonate with people.

Speaker 7 (07:05):
The Civil Rights Actor has been passed, the Voting Rights
Act has been passed by nineteen sixty eight. There's an
anti poverty program. So there's a kind of backlashes coming
from whites. Now you got black people coming out there
making irrational statements that I'm making ninety thousand dollars a
year and I'm a slave.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Now, thankfully this did not discourage Flood. Oh, y'all want
to talk about race. Flood said, well, let's talk about it.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
Then, it's been a master and slave relationship.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
As long as you do for I say this, you're fine.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
As his case worked this way through the legal system,
his baseball career suffered. He didn't play it all in
nineteen seventy A year later, he was traded to the
Washington Senators, but he wasn't the same player. He appeared
in just thirteen games. He left the Senators in April
nineteen seventy one and retired from baseball. Finally, in nineteen
seventy two, Flood's case went all the way to the
Supreme Court, but the court ruled in favor of Major

(07:59):
League Baseball.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
And while Kurt Flood.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Was managing all of this, not a single major League
Baseball player showed up to the trial to support the
player who was fighting for their rights. A few years later,
the reserve clause finally ended in Major League baseball. In
nineteen seventy five, pitchers Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally refused
to sign their one year contracts, but they played anyway.
When that season ended, an arbitrator ruled they could become

(08:24):
free agents, and that was the final straw that finally
led to free agency. Now, I think you all know
how this story goes. Neither Andy Messersmith or Dave McNally
lost their careers or faced the same criticism that Flood did.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
But imagine if other.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Players had simply stood with Flood when he filed his lawsuit.
Either way, Flood gave everybody the blueprint. Here's Oscar Robertson
on how Kurt Flood inspired him to take up a
similar fight for NBA players in the nineteen seventies.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
In basketball, we knew that Kurt Fluy was trying to
achieve We thought it was right.

Speaker 9 (08:57):
Three months after Flood had filed his lawsuit in nineteen
seventy Oscar Robertson and thirteen other professional basketball players sued
to abolish the reserve clause in the NBA following an
earlier failed attempt by star Rick Barry. Six years later,
they reached a settlement to bring free agency to their sport.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
It took until nineteen ninety three for the NFL to
have full free agency, which was spearheaded by the late
Reggie White. The Hall of Famer was the lead plaintiff
in a class action anti trust lawsuit against the NFL.
Before free agency, every NFL team was allowed to protect
thirty seven players on their roster from leaving to another team.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
When White left the Philadelphia Eagles to.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Sign a four year contract with the Green Bay Packers
or seventeen million, it wasn't just something he deserved, but
something he truly fought for. On this podcast last week,
I mentioned how Major League Baseball Commissioner Rob Manfred is
considering lifting the ban on Pete Rose from baseball, which
would make him eligible for the Hall of Fame posthumously. Now,
while Pete Rose was a great player, he crossed a

(10:00):
sacred line by gambling on the game. Manfred should instead
put that energy behind advocating for Kurt Flood to be
in the Hall of Fame. Even if you don't think
Flood was good enough to be elected as a player,
there is precedence for electing Flood as a contributor because
of how he impacted the growth of the game. The
former executive director of the Players Association, Marvin Miller, is

(10:22):
in the Hall of Fame because of his contributions, and
it was Miller who Flood consulted with before making his
decision to sue Major League Baseball. The average salary of
today's pro baseball player is five million a year, and
that would not have happened without Kurt Flood. Major League
Baseball needs to atone for blackballing a player whose only

(10:42):
offense was standing ten toes down.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
I'm Jamelle Hill, and I approved this message.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Up next on his politics, My guest is a former
NFL veteran who played with the likes of Randall Cunningham,
Randy Moss, and Chris Carter. He's a player who has
maximized his gifts and talent at every stop as an athlete,
so it's no surprise that he's been able to make
an amazing pivot into filmmaking and storytelling. And I can't
wait to tell him how I used to play with

(11:09):
him on Maddon coming up next on his politics Matthew Hatchett. So, Hatch,
I'm going to start this podcast by asking you a
question that I ask every guest that appears on politics,
and that is name an athlete or a moment that

(11:32):
made you love sports.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Ooh, that's kind of easy. So I remember it like
it was yesterday. All right, I'm sitting down watching sometime
in the nineties. Tell you how old I am the
Chicago Bulls versus the Cleveland Cavaliers, and they gave this
dude named Michael Jordan the ball with three seconds left.
And I knew about big shots and big games, but

(11:57):
I never knew about the energy of it or the
excitement of it. And I wasn't a Jordan fan up
until this. Right, I'm from Cleveland, Ohio, so you know,
we're watching, you know, our home team, the Cleveland Cavaliers,
and he just walks out on the court as Michael walks.
At that time, it was a normal walk, as you
know now, the way Michael walk was something out of

(12:18):
this world, right, you don't walk like everybody else. And
he like said, to get the ball in bounds, he
had to go one two, you know, give him a
little move or whatever, and then go attack the ball.
And then three seconds left, three two one he shoots
and the ball went in and I just jumped up
like I'm in the arena or like I had something
to do with it, right, But I had never been
that emotional about a game. My favorite sport was football,

(12:43):
of course, right, but just that moment of the ball
going through the hoop and he turns around and you know,
gives the fist pump and I was just so lost
in that three to five seconds of Jordan doing that, right,
making the shot, having the excitement, and I was like,
you know what, I want to feel that one day.
And of course that kind of started my journey of

(13:05):
I don't know what I got to do, but I
know that that moment is not easy to have. So
I'm going to do everything in my power to have
that moment at some point in my sports uh I
guess sports journey. And of course that was the moment
to me, Michael Jordan beating the Cavs with three seconds
left on the clock, game winning buzzer winning game for

(13:25):
Michael Jordan's.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Now, that was the shot that he hit over Craig Elo.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
Right, that was the shout over hit over Craig Elo, Yeah,
I think, and that won the series. And it was like,
I think the Caves might have been ranked, you know,
they like two seed, the Bulls were like seven or
something like that. I don't think it was one in eight,
but it was. The Bulls were definitely not favored to
win in Cleveland.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
To win that series, you know how diabolical you have
to be for that to be your moment when so
many Cleveland fans are still scarred from that.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's just diabolical. Ahead I just thought, I disappointing sports memory.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
Okay, you know what, there's so many disappointing moments in
Cleveland sports history. Don't even worry about that one, y'all.
Don't even worry about that one. You got the fumble,
you know, you got the drive with l Way, you
got some other Cavaliers woes. But the Cavs have won
a championships since then. Lebron brought them one a couple

(14:23):
of years back, so I think they can forgive me
for this one.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
So with that being said, given that you clearly had
a lot of respect and admiration from Michael Jordan, where
do you stand in the Jordan versus Lebron debate, it's.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
Not even a debate. It's not even a debate. I mean,
you're talking about a guy, and by the way, Kobe's
number two, but you're talking about and I'm going to
break it down to them trying to give the perspective
of the regular fan. Right, you look at Lebron and
what he did from being number one in high school

(14:59):
and being so big, you know, bigger, stronger, faster than everybody,
and then you take him to the NBA he's still bigger, stronger,
faster than anybody. Michael was the opposite, right, he had
to make himself into Michael Jordan. So it comes more
about respect than about just god given talent. Like Michael
wasn't six eight, he wasn't two forty. He wasn't going

(15:20):
to be able to just dominate physically, so he had
to figure out his game. He had to make himself
into Michael Jordan, which, you know, disrespect to Lebron, But
to me, there's no debate because you're talking about somebody
who made himself, you know, from the Mud, and instead
of just taking what he had, and he's bigger and stronger,
fast than everybody that's Lebron. That's cool. But I think

(15:41):
that work, ethic, determination, desire, all those things and what's
really made him, and I think those things are unmatched.
And of course we're talking about the finished product is
six rings and game winners, and people like, well, that's
who he is, Like that is nothing, that's not that's
the product, the by product of who he became. But
who he is was that fifteen, sixteen, nineteen year old

(16:05):
kid who lived in the gym, getting better every day
all day. And that's what I respect about Michael's journey,
and that's why it's unmatched to me. And he changed
a whole sport more than he just was a good player,
Like Lebron's a great player, but I just you can't
put Lebron in Hong Kong, in China and he just

(16:26):
people look at him like a god, right, like Michael
had that. I remember we had this told this story
the other day and it was some back in the
two thousands or something. They were the most how do
you call it, not the most expensive, but the most
popular names in the world. Right, it was Nickey Mouse

(16:48):
and Michael Jordan, Like those are the two biggest names
in the world like, that's hard to be. In my opinion,
it is.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
I mean when we talk about influence over a culture,
because I would argue that even though if you think
that Lebron is the best player this generation, the most
influential player this generation is Steph Curry because Steph Curry
has handedly changed the way basketball has played. You know,
a lot of people know they cannot hit the genetic

(17:17):
lottery and be Lebron James. But Steph Curry just speak
of the idea that they can be him, you know,
because he's you.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Know, he's he's definitely, he's definitely athletic.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
He's just not six a eight and two forty and
he's not some amazing leaper. He had to create such
a specific skill, and he created it so well that
now when you watch an NBA game, everybody's trying to
be Steph. Right, It's like everybody's shooting from you know,
all five positions. You see what the three point shot.
What that's done to the NBA. Whether it's good or

(17:48):
bad depending on what your perspective is.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
So it's different.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
I do wonder if this is a generational perspective, because
you and I are only a year apart.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
And so like you, I am from the Midwest. I'm
from twenty two.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
You're twenty two, yes.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yes, yes, yes a year.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
I love how you put yourself younger than me. But
that's okay, all good. But I do think probably basketball
fans of our generation, and especially in the cities that
we're from, because we had to you know, Cleveland was
more tormented by Michael Jordan.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
See when I was commuted as.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
A basketball fan, we were kicking his ass and then
we then we couldn't beat him anymore, right, And so
it's like, right, we have that we were all in
the same division, so we have that proximity. You know,
you got Cleveland, Otago and Detroit, so we have probably
a much more deeper, intimate sort of memory.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
Of Michael Jordan.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
And not that I didn't see Lebron's whole career, so
I can I can understand why you answered it that way.
But it's just so diabolical that you from Cleveland and
that was your sports moment.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
And you want to know my favorite football team growing up,
just take a wild guy. Since I'm being from Cleland,
take a wild guy.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
So I'm guessing what it wasn't the Browns.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
Then it was not the Browns. I couldn't stand the Browns.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Tell me, tell me you were not a Cowboys fan.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
I was a Steelers fan.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Oh, Steelers. I was trying to think of a national team.
I was thinking of a national team. But you know, okay,
like I was, like it had to be might have
been my second.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Guess, Yeah, steelersn't Browns. That was the biggest rival. That
was the biggest. Of course they can't stand each other.
But it's funny because my whole family loved the Browns.
But looking back at it, I guess that just made
me who I am. Right, if I see everybody going left,
there's some odd reason I'm going to go right. I
don't know. It's just me. So I was a huge

(19:42):
Steelers fan growing up as well. Yeah, well I love
But what it.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Is we're talking about pathways. Let's let's get deeper into yours. Now.
You and I like we we met like a few
years back, because when you and t O had the podcast,
I came in and did the podcast.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
But most recently we've worked together.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
You created this amazing project called shadow Ball, Rise of
the Black Athlete. It's a document series style podcast that's
on Amazon audible and for those who have not listened
to it, it's really spectacular. When you reached out and
just told me just the root of it, like what

(20:24):
you wanted to accomplish, the stories you wanted to tell
about black athletes.

Speaker 7 (20:28):
I was.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
I was in just off that and when the script
which is exceptional, you know. So it was really a
fantastic experience for me. But you made this pivot in entertainment.
You've been at it for a while, I mean, and
so I guess I wanted to start with theirs that
you know a lot of guys when they leave the NFL,

(20:49):
because you what year did you retire?

Speaker 3 (20:51):
It was.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Two thousand and six, you retire, So when that moment
comes and you know football is no longer what you'll
be doing as your main career, what made you decide
to pivot to entertainment?

Speaker 3 (21:07):
You know what? I didn't know at the moment that
I was pivoting. I think that's the key here. It's like,
when you get done, there's you're going to search for
something to replace it, and there's nothing that can place
that feeling right. But there is only a few times
how I don't even call it an epiphany, but there's
a few times you just have that feel of this

(21:29):
world is different if I choose to be different with
that right running out of the tunnel from my first
NFL game, there was something about that. It's just something
that I was like, this is the best feeling in
the world. I don't know what ever is going to
happen the rest of my life. I could die right now.
That was a moment the day I got drafted, when

(21:50):
Dinny Green called me at three forty eight April twenty first,
nineteen ninety seven, when I was a two hundred and
thirty fifth picking an NFL draft not hatchet when it
be a Minnesota biking, I said, yep, and you know,
I went outside from my hands. That was a moment.
The only other time I really felt that is when

(22:11):
I went to A Bad Boy Too Bad Boy's Too
premiere and we're sitting down for the you know, for
the movie to start. This the whole theater goes black,
and then of course the curtains open up and the
first scene is well doing something. I probably something with
this shirt off, shirt off or something, I don't remember,
but the crowd's going crazy and I just remember getting

(22:32):
those same goosebumps of the moment. This is like, the
moment was just energetic, and how can I have this moment?
Because at this point, I'm like, I can have this
moment because it has nothing to do with sports, right,
And I was like, I'm going to go into entertainment.
Had no idea what I was going to do, but
I'm like, I'm gonna go down that path because there

(22:53):
was something, you know, that that had had a fire
in my belly to say, I don't know what this is,
but I love everything about it. And from there I
just started reaching out and trying to figure out what
to do, what the entertainment business was right, what a
writer was, director, producer, agent, all of those things I
had to figure out because I'm not from this world
at all, right, live in California, but this whole thing

(23:15):
of growing up in the Midwest, I had never even
been to California growing up, never been to New York
growing up, So, you know, planning the league got me
able to see a bunch of different things in my life.
But when I was living in Cali and I had
that moment, I'm like, I can do this. But that
was the moment I just knew I had to do
something entertainment. That's kind of what started it.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Speaking of Will Smith, I saw that you used to
get confused quite a bit for Will Smith.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Or was it that you used to say you were.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
It depends on the ass, you know what. So because
I started coming out to California because my agent was
Dwayne Martin and him and Tisa Campbell married at the
same time or married at that time, should I say.
And he was partners with Will, you know, with a
bunch of business ventures and movies and stuff like that.
So I got to hang up with a lot. But

(24:08):
I knew that we kind of looked alike from the
audience perspective of just walking around maybe hat on or whatever.
The demeanor we had it, you know, I think that
was it. But then I started when I'm moving to
LA When I was out there a lot, I'd go
to Vallet and I'd have people come up to me.
But this is just when I'm getting done playing. I'm like, oh,
they still think I'm Hatch, you know. I'm like, yeah,

(24:30):
let me and they're looking at me like you got
Will Smith. I'm like, oh you thought I would Nah, No, No,
So I got confused here and there, but I just
thought it was me being half a celebrity, if you will,
Like maybe he saw my one touchdown I had in
the league. I don't know. You know, I'm trying to
I'm trying to live it all a little bit longer.
But I used to get confusing him quite a lot.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Absolutely, did you ever take advantage of the confusion?

Speaker 3 (24:55):
You know what? I have? Not? I should have. I
should have.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
There's some good tables at some LA restaurants or you know,
like you got up into the vip vip because they
thought you was Will Smith.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
I'm not mad, you know, well, you know what's funny.
Maybe I have, but maybe it was the ego at
the time. I got up in there because I'm Hatch,
you know, because LA is funny like that. You can
go to one thing, like one event during sb's or oscars,
and they were like, you know, hey, come on, yep,
you go home, gone in, and then you go somewhere

(25:30):
else and you can stand in line for an hour. Yeah,
oh you ain't big enough to get it here, you know.
So I was kind of that struggle of the in
between times. I don't know if I'm me or him, right,
I don't have a clue, but yeah, it all worked.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
So when did you know when it came to your
NFL career? When did you know that you were done,
that this it was over?

Speaker 3 (25:51):
It was it. That was. I was playing with Jacksonville
and I think I've ever told the story. Actually, So
I'm playing with jackson Bill and I had started the
first four games, and.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
This was like two thousand and three, I think, right,
I think.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Three or four. So I'm like, okay, yeah, And so
I remember JJ Stokes was a big free agent signing.
I had went over to Amsterdam and then I played
over there. It's coming off an injured shoulder, and they're like,
you know, well Hatch can't run anymore. Like, well thanks,
So I go to over to Amsterdam plays show them

(26:30):
that I can still run, still play whatever that is.
And I was mad that I was over there. I'm like,
I should not have to be over right, So I
thought I was in a no win situation. If you
go over there and play well, they're gonna say, well,
it's both to do that. I go over there and
play bad. Let's see. I told you he was done.
So I was like, whenever went over there, played well,
you know, got like the MVP and Ring of van
Or did all that stuff like I was supposed to

(26:52):
in my opinion, So I come back. I'm not the
highest gun the total poll at the Jacksonville Jaguars at
the time, I'm probably, you know, the probably twelfth guy.
I'm the young on the rock on the receiver depth
chart in June when I get there, but I end
up bawling out. In preseason started the first four games,
we're owing four Byron Leffritz is a rookie. Mark Burnell

(27:12):
was the starter, and we're struggling. But to me, I'm
playing good right, I'm doing my job right. Our bye
week was week's fixed, but Jimmy Smith was suspended, so
me and JJ were both the starter for the first
four weeks. So Jimmy comes back weeks five and six.
They feed Jimmy the ball like he's getting like ten
targets a game, you know, like six catches like at

(27:34):
both games or something like that. So then our bye
week is the seventh week. So we're sitting at one
in five and I think Jack del Reel is like,
we're gonna make some changes blah blah blah, and so receivers,
you know, we're starting to go over the our stuff
we did for the first six weeks in order to
kind of get ready for the rest of the season.
So we come in have a breakdown. He's like, this
is Jimmy Smith. This is how you do it.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
Right.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
We're throwing the ball, you know, twenty I think like
eighteen times, and he's got like twelve catches in two games.
I'm like, that's pretty cool, right, good, But he's getting
the ball more thrown too. And then so I was like,
they didn't say nothing about me. Of course, I'm just
going to watch it. So after everybody leaves, I come in.
I'm gonna look at my own stats. I never just
did that. I never looked at myself like that. It

(28:17):
was always, you know, team first, and I was looking
at the stats. I'm like, after six weeks, I'm leading
this team in every receiving category, right, receive receptions, yards,
and touchdowns, and so like, well, that's not good enough.
Maybe it's about percentage of wins. So I go look
at how many times I've been targeted and I have catches.
So I think I've been targeted like twenty eight times

(28:38):
but had like twenty two catches, which would also be
the number one percentage on the team, and after that,
I didn't dress another game that season. So at that point,
I was kind of like I'd done all I could do.
I think I've just it's not working out for me.
This is not what I imagine of a starting receiver

(29:02):
to be in the NFL, Like I thought you were
just once you play well, you start for the rest
of you know whatever. But it wasn't like, oh, I'm
met at the politics. I've just thought that inside. I
started four games, that was the best I could do.
I think this is it. I thought that was my ceiling. Unfortunately,
I thought that was my ceiling. Yes, I wanted Pro
Bowls and Super Bowls and one hundred million dollar contracts,

(29:25):
but I was like, maybe that's just not for me,
and maybe there's something else out there for me. And
at that moment, I will start to trending say I
think I've done all I could do in the NFL.
It was great, but I'm not going to ever have
those opportunities to really be at number one in this league,
and therefore I'm probably just going to start changing my
direction in life. And that's when I retired the following.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Now I have to say, I've been covering sports now
for you know, almost thirty years. Honestly, I've never heard
I've never heard a retirement story that way. Usually I've
never heard that type of retirement store typically is injury,
especially in the NFL, as you know, body gets bet up.
But it sounds like you had the self awareness to

(30:10):
realize that I have reached my ceiling. Since this is
my ceiling, what am I still doing this for?

Speaker 3 (30:20):
Right?

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (30:21):
So how you know, as you come to terms with that,
what did you imagine or think about what your life
outside of the NFL would look.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Like at the time? What did I imagine it? Like?

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, oh, because you're I mean, at least by the way,
I mean, I just granted I have your bio and
all that, and it's you know, your last year on
year in Jacksonville, you were twenty nine, So like you're
twenty nine, thirty years old. Most people don't think about
I'm retired at thirty, you know what I'm saying. So
it's like you're retired at thirty, So like, what are
you thinking your life is supposed to look like?

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Now? In a bad way, I thought it would be
vacation golf, hanging out, partying when I want to. That's
what I thought NFL retirement was in my eyes. I
learned that that's not who I am, it's not what

(31:15):
I want, it's not what successful people do. So I'm
mad that I imagine it that way. But that was
only probably because the perception I had of all the
things I've seen on media and what I've heard from
other teammate, whatever that stuff was, that was my picture.
But I'm that would have made me absolutely miserable. There's

(31:36):
no sitting around because I remember my agent said, why
don't you go to Hawaiian and figure out your life?
I'm like, no, not an option, like just stay in
Hawaii for a month and a half and do nothing
Like that's just a miserable time to me. So that's
when I like said going into the entertainment industry, it
took my focus because I didn't know nothing. So I
had to lose myself for eighteen hour days of reading

(32:01):
scripts and figuring out, you know, how to shoot a
doc or how to shoot this movie, and going to
acting class and going to directing class. All of those
things I got. I had to forget about ball and
that's why it helped me and golf myself into the
transitioning because I didn't want to be the guy on vacation.
I didn't want to be the guy golfing every day. Now,

(32:22):
people love golfing and people love that I get it,
But to me, that's just not what if I'm looking
at now, being older and knowing what this life is about.
If I'm looking at the top hundred billionaires in the world,
they can make one hundred million, five hundred, they still
wake up the next day and they go get it.

Speaker 4 (32:40):
Right.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
When Kobe got done winning a championship, Let's go get
another championship. When Jordan got done, you know, winning a
champ Let's go get another championship. So I didn't think
about it like I've made it, Like, no, this is
letting me go get another the ring I never had, Right,
let me go get another ring, but in a different genre,

(33:01):
right in a different lane. That's why I looked at it.
But I definitely my perception of what it would look
like did not match who I was as a person.
So I'm kind of glad that I figured that out
really quickly and I got to englf myself into something else.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
So were you are you the type of person and
was this part of your DNA As a competitor, will
you think more about the losses than the winds?

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Absolutely? Don't even think about the winds. It's funny now,
it's like, you know, coaching and mentoring kids, just like
failure is part of success, you know, it's not the
opposite of it. People want to always, well, I don't fail,
I don't lose. Well don't you don't learn neither. And
I just remember Warren Buffett made a statement, you know,

(33:47):
they were talking to him about what projects do you
invest in when they're your friends you get you know,
you got hundreds of friends and they are coming to
you with thousands of ideas. Who do you invest in?
And Warren Buffett said, I've only invested in my friends
who have failed at their business three times. And that
was amazing to me because you know, get you've got,
you got money, You've been pitched all this stuff and

(34:09):
the first thing they say this is guaranteed. That's the
last thing I want to hear about an investment, right
or you know, because you don't know everything, so you're
gonna fail. But the worst part about somebody being non
self aware is it's okay to fail. It's okay to
tell people, YEF, I messed this up, and shoot, I
thought it was this and I did this, but it

(34:30):
wasn't it. But I'm going to get back up on
my horse and go for another ride. That's where the
character comes in. That's where the determination comes in. And
I think that's what molds the person to become successful,
not the person saying I never lose and I always
win like that's this of it, because it's not reality
and it's not happening.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
So with that being said, you were part of that
fifteen to one Minnesota team that lost of the Falcons
and the NFC Championship. Yeah in overtime, Yes, you forget
that g went to overtime. Yeah, you play with Randy Moss,
with Chris Carter, Randall Cunningham.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
How long or how much did that last stay with you?

Speaker 3 (35:11):
Still to this day? I always think would it be
different if we personally think that team we would have ran.
We would have definitely ran it back one the following
year and we were on our way to a dynasty, right.
But I think the locker room part of our team
was the reason we did not win that game. I

(35:32):
think we fell apart as a team as a group watching,
of course, what the Patriots have done in this last
you know, twenty years. It's more about the team concept
and the Wii and not k me concept. And I
just think some of those things that were happening in
our locker room, not to the media, but I think
that hurt us in the long run of trying to
win that game even and again, it just it. I

(35:55):
think we still win that game nine out of ten times,
but it's hard to get to the Super Bowl, hard
to win the Super Bowl, it's hard to have a championship.
So like that part of it doesn't bother me, But
it's just being there and being so close. And don't
forget in that fourth quarter, with like six minutes left,
I got a touchdown that put us up by ten points.

(36:16):
So it's not like we were just losing the game
all game, like we were up winning And I remember
after catching that touchdown, we're on the sideline, were talking
about our plans to Miami like it's over, like we're
up by ten and it's hey, y'all, you know we're
doing that whole thing and get ready to go to
Miami for the Bowl. Because it's over, we're up by
ten and we're going to get the ball back. But again,

(36:36):
it just did not work out like that unfortunately. Again
talking about curses for franchises and people's bad luck, all
of those things, it's irrelevant of the conversation. But you know,
you just don't know until you really have a win tol,
you really have the money in the bank, because I
like to say so, it's like you have to really

(36:58):
just be in that moment every single time when you're
in that moment, and take advantage of the opportunity. And
I try to tell a lot of these kids now
are younger players playing in the league, You're only great
if you can be great when the time comes up
and you're great, right the game winning shot. You got
to make it, you know, a couple of times, but

(37:19):
you got to make it. You can't, well, I'm great,
I'm great, and then you shrink in big games or
you know, you shrinking. So I've always played my best
in playoff games throughout my career. So I was just like,
you know what, this game, we were supposed to be there.
I don't know if it would change my life, but
we were definitely supposed to be in the Super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
That year, Atlanta went on, they played the Broncos, they
got smoked by the Broncos.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
And the Super Bowl. Do you think you all would
have beat the Broncos?

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Not even close. We would have beaten them by thirty,
not even close, because again we were we would we
would have put eight in the box, right, we would
have put eight in the box. But we were we
were just so explosive. And again, people see no huddle
nowadays and they see, you know, a team that scored
thirty and we were doing this with like chunks down

(38:05):
the field. We would do it forty yard you know
plays and spend thirty yard plays and twenty yard players
we're doing We're so explosive from every position on the field.
Tight end Andrew Glover, running back Robert Smith, we have
Moss Carter, me Jake Reid was you know, we had
players that were going to make plays. Our defense was
making big plays, pick sixes and stuff like that. So

(38:27):
it's not like when we were going to score and
it was going to kind of like kind of figure
our way out through the first quarter that against Denver,
we would have probably went up and went twenty one,
twenty eight in the first half for sure, and they
didn't have the deep, they didn't have the horses to
mess with us on the offensive side. They just didn't Yeah, sorry, sorry, yeah,
I mean.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
To refresh people.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
So that Denver team, you know, as obviously as lway
Asterreal Davis, Shannon Shark, McCaffrey, Yeah, mccaffree senior.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
Year, Yeah, senior right right, And.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yes, mccaffree senior is on that team. And they were
considered explosive in their own right. But I know these
days people are used to like aerial attack just being
a regular part of the game, people throwing all the time.
But that Minnesota team was just deadly, like it was
one of my favorite teams to play with in Madden.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
I was like, Hatch, I used.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
TOPSe Yeah already you know they have me in the slot,
they have me in mad remember the outside guys with
just yes, correct you.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's why you were made a weapon because everybody so
like but I.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Would be abusive.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
So you use me better than any of my offensive
coordinators at the time, So you know, thank you.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yes, of course.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
But yeah, it's a lot more I definitely want to
ask you about as we continue to talk about your pivots, entertainment,
some of the projects you're doing, and uh, you know,
also a couple more football things. But we're going to
take a quick break and we'll be right back with
more with Matthew had Ye. All right, we were we

(40:07):
were talking about that fifteen and one Minnesota team before
the break. You know, you had the you had the
front row seat. He was your quarterback, Randall Cunningham. And
for these kids today who did not understand who round
Randall Cunningham was, especially at that time.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Look, he was more than just a dude that did
a guest appearance on.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
Market, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, he had yeah right right.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, more too up to that that dude was.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
He's one of the most incredible athletes that ever has
played that position.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Just incredible quarterbacks and players period.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yes, But what did Randall Cunningham do And this is
mostly for those the audience that did not wasn't able
to really see him play.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
What do you think he did for the perception of
black quarterbacks?

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Oh well, he changed it tremendously because he was one
of the guys to African American guys who could throw
it and run it. Right, we always want the l
way of course could do both as well, right, but
he was still in the cookie cutter box of the position.
Cunningham was so far out of the box, right. His

(41:15):
body type, he was lanky. You know, he's going to
get hurt because you know, he's just too skinny, you know,
all of those things. So the running around that Randall
did it was just amazing because don't forget, he was
like a probably a four to four guy, you know.
I mean he wasn't Michael Vick's four two, but at
that position a guy run in a four to four.

(41:36):
He was running away from backers and jumping over people,
and his you know, his body would get bent a
certain way and you know, look like rubber Man, you know,
uh throw, you know when he gets tackled, and then
the next play he's throwing a forty yard bomb. So
I think this his his image of being a quarterback
at that time in the league, where there was nobody

(41:58):
doing that. That's what change the perception. That's what changed
offensive coordinators' mindsets of Oh, we can run my system
with him and still win the game doing it my way,
because most of the time they see a black quarterback, Oh,
I have to change my system now you don't. You
can call this. You would call the plays for Joe Montana,

(42:21):
John Elway and Troy Aikman. But by the way, he
might just go ahead and run this play on third
down and go get you ten or forty. You don't
even know. But I think now, looking back, as I'm
a play caller, now I look at it as that's
the best weapon to have because from an offensive perspective,
you get to play eleven on eleven. Most of the time,
you're playing ten on eleven because the quarterback's unaccounted for

(42:44):
because you know where he's going to be and he's
not gonna run it, he's gonna throw it, or he's
going to hand it off. But when you're playing eleven
on eleven, all those numbers have changed from safety in
the box, linebacker in the box, and or having a spy.
And of course that's what you see now in twenty
twenty five is you're playing eleven on eleven every single time.
That's why you have the advantage of an offensive coordinator.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
And to me, the most he had a lot of
impressive statistics. The most impressive stat he ever had to
me was he's the only player in history to complete
a fifty yard pass and this is all in the
same game. A fifty yard touchdown pass, to run for
over or to have an over fifty yards in a
touchdown run, and.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Two punts for over yards in the same game.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
He threw a fifty yard pass or it was a
fifty yard pass he threw he ran for over fifty
like he had a fifty had a long run.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
I forgot how many yards it was, and he punted
ninety yards.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
Yes, that's one zone in zone one. Yeah, yeah, he wanted.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
I was like, no, man like that.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
People people always like want to stay look at stuff
like that. Well, but he kicked it. I'm like, but
this is somebody who's not a kick He's just an athlete, right,
you know what I'm saying. But like people, it's okay,
CEOs or vice presidents of people out there at some company,
go and do three other jobs today at your job,

(44:11):
and you'll see how hard it is to do three
people's job in one day. Like, it's not an easy task.
And don't forget he's also doing this against the best
athletes in the world and making it look easy. Yeah,
he was just a freakish athlete.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Absolutely, as you mentioned it was.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
It used to be just kind of an accepted reality
that when it was black quarterbacks. You know, a lot
of black quarterbacks had their careers kind of ruined because
they got with offensive coordinators or head coaches who understand
their skill set right and how to maximize that, or
just kept trying to sort of force a square peg
into a round hole. How much was Randall Cunningham helped

(44:48):
by the fact that Denny Green was his coach.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Oh night and day. If he could have probably went
somewhere else because don't forget, remember he had retired and
he came out of retirement. If he would have went
to another team, I don't think or he could might
not have had the best career at the Press season
ever because that was his best season as a pro
and he was balling in Philly. But him for him,
he won NFL MVP that year. But it was all

(45:12):
to me, which best coach I ever had was Denny Green,
because it wasn't about say do it my way, Let
me find out what he does well, use him for that,
and then of course put the pieces around him to
help him facilitate and be successful in this system. So
for Dinny to see that early, not overwhelm him with
you have to do it the way our system is.

(45:35):
Overwhelm him. You have to do it with the way
our Brad Johnson was doing it, because don't forget Brad
started Week one, I think, but all of our concerns
going into Week one was Brad can't reach Moss on
the go ball. Like he had a good arm, but
he wasn't throwing those sixty yard rockets like Randa was.

(45:55):
So even though we had a successful game versus Tampa
week one, the offense wasn't opening up until Randall played
in that offense because we know now Moss can stretch
the field and people are like, well every quarterback can
throw it down there, Like, no, you can't them balls
was down there. They were down the field and Mass
was out running these guys, and that makes a huge

(46:17):
difference for Dinny Green to even see that, understand that.
But when we see it, I think it was the
first time we seen I think Mass. I think the
Bengals game it was like one of those I swear
the balls in the air for at these seventy seventy
five yards and you saw a bomb back in the
day was caught the go ball right. Bomb was caught
at forty and five right, so it was forty yards

(46:40):
down the field, five yards to the sideline. So everybody
practiced that. Quarterbacks one, two th four, five, forty and
five and receivers we run twenty, look up at ten right,
forty and five. Ball is going to be there. When
Mass came to the league, he had the mass rule
and it was fifty and five because he was so
much further down the field when the ball rise in,

(47:00):
Corners and safeties were not getting to that spot and
Randon was the only one that was able to reach
him on a five and a hitch to throw that ball.
So again, he changed his whole perception, changed the game.
And I kind of like Danny Green, and I think
Brian Billick did a great job. And I don't see
a lot of that nowadays because I think personally there's

(47:20):
more coordinators and or coaches that ruin quarterbacks than make
a quarterback. And I think one of the best coaches
out there that's really not getting enough I guess enough,
not excitement, but enough whatever, something good credit there you go.
Credit get enough. Credit is Todd Mounkin for what he's

(47:41):
doing with Lamar Jackson, Like, I think he's done a
great job of, okay, using what Lamar does. Still this system,
use these pieces. I think there's a lot of systems
and coaches that would not do as well with Lamar Jackson.
And we know Lamar is Lamar. I feel like he's
an NFL MVP. But you put them in another system

(48:02):
and there'll be a bunch of people screaming, well, he
can't do this and he can't do that. Well, that's
the coach's fault. And I just don't think that's talked
enough right now. Like again, that marriage up there in
Baltimore's great, and that reminds me of what Danny Green
did with the random Cunningham.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
So in practice, did you ever try to race Randy Moss?

Speaker 3 (48:23):
You know what? This is how we raced because we
raced every game. So in back in the day when
the TV copy you could barely see the edge of
the receivers where the receivers would stand, right. So every play,
if we're running a run play, like our goal was
who would get to the ten yard mark first? I

(48:43):
mean I was a four to three coming out, so
I'm not no slouts, you know what I'm saying? But
to me, I could I ran a four to three
for four quarters, like I didn't get tired. I never
got tired. So by that like third and fourth quarter,
I think I was beating Moss on a couple of
times to that ten yard mark here and there. But
I could definitely come off the ball. What I my
time overall was that a four to two like Moss. No,

(49:05):
but I could probably beat him one out of ten
times because he go get tired.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Sure you know, I'm sure you've seen because he announced
it himself that he's back in cancer.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Have you talked to Randy?

Speaker 3 (49:19):
Yeah, yeah, I hit him up. I say, just you know,
just praying for you, because we've been been in contact,
you know, through our retirement and he was always coming
out here to La for Fox, and he was on Fox,
you know, hooping every day, you know, just trying to
stay young, stay healthy or not every day. But when
he was out here, like every Saturday, we used to
hoop whatever. But it was you know, good times then.

(49:39):
And now that we're both on this side of you know,
of our age, you know that when that hit, I
was like, yeah, it's real, you know, but I told him,
you know, I tell him all the time. I'm praying
for you, you know, getting stay healthy, get healthy, stay healthy,
watch what you eat. All those conversations we have now
compared to you know, what we had, you know, twenty
years ago. Crazy because again that was my roommate when

(50:02):
he got to the Vikings and we were pretty close
that whole time I was there. And now, you know,
to see this shoot twenty eight, twenty eight years later,
twenty seven years later, it's crazy. But you know, he's
you know, had a great success. To me, I've been
very successful after a playing as well, doing media, what

(50:23):
people didn't really think he would ever do because he
couldn't stand the media proposedly. But yeah know, but then
he gets on there and everybody loves him. I'm happy
for him. Like I said, I don't think he revamped
his his image if you will, but I just think
that's who he is. Just nobody saw it because he
just didn't want to be seen, you know, like people

(50:43):
didn't see him all the time. They did me hear
him in interviews when he finally came out, they're like,
that's Randy Molson. Yeah, that's ryand the most that's how
we talked, you know. So it's their first time because
he didn't do a lot of that stuff when he
was playing. He just didn't want to. But I personally
think he did it the right way. And I remember
because everybody wants to get on him because he didn't

(51:06):
do what they wanted him to do, especially the media.
I want you to do interviews now. I want you
to do interviews at Super Bowl. I want you to
do them when you win. And Randy I'm doing I
want to do it. And I just remember Tom Brady.
They asked Tom Brady after Patrick Mahomes won his first
Super Bowl, you know he won no second super Bowl.
He's so young, he's going to catch your record and

(51:27):
you know all these he's going to end up with
more rings than you, Like, how do you feel about that?
And I remember Brady saying, if Patrick Mahomes wants to
catch me, he's going to have to change his life.
And I was like, I thought, I'm like interesting, because
Brady knows you have to disappear, right Patrick pretty much.
I mean he does some things here and there, but

(51:48):
in the public eye, when you're the guy, you got
to disappear. Mass had disappeared. They just didn't like that.
It was mass and he disappeared. They wanted more of him.
Most didn't give you that, but if you think about it,
Brady didn't give you that neither. Right, Patrick doesn't give
you that neither. A couple of commercials here and there,
but those guys aren't always available. You know, you're going
to do your interviews now because the NFL has this

(52:10):
contract with you know, these TV stations, all that stuff,
But really, in the limelight and your lifestyle, you really
have to disappear to be one of these best players
in sports history.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
You know, Like you mentioned Randy pivoting the media, it
was it was kind of funny and also surprising, but
you know, I mean he I never imagine Nick Saby
would be in that either because he also didn't like
the media. But yeah, sometimes those are guys that give
you the most valuable insight. But with that being said,
you have, you know, you know a lot of retired players,

(52:45):
and you yourself have obviously been in that position. Why
does it seem like so many professional athletes, particularly football players,
seem to struggle once they.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
Retire mentality, the mindset. I made it to the league.
They forget that it took him to ten years twelve years.
Fifteen years because they started playing football at nine, they
got drafted at twenty three. They started playing football at five,
they got drafted at twenty one. That's fifteen years or something.
You don't just get out of the NFL and say
I'm good at this over here. It don't work like that.

(53:16):
Most of the time we're like, well, since we made
it to the NFL, I'm warranted a shortcut to have
success in something else. No, that ain't it. We think that,
we hope that, but you're going to have to go
through a period of time or you're going to struggle,
you're going to fail, you're gonna be misunderstood all for

(53:38):
another lane that you don't want to feel that way
because now you you've been a superstar for so long,
you don't know how it is to go back to
get it from the mud. So that's the biggest thing.
I think that mindset of the world owes me something,
or you know, I played in the league, so you
guys are supposed to give me this deal like all
those things. It just doesn't happen because you're still going
up against the other one percent center that has been

(54:01):
been in the business for fifteen years, and I think
if they understand that, they're like, you know what, let
me just go back to work. It might take some time,
but you do instill the qualities inside you that you
can still go do anything that you want. It's going
to take some time. It's going to take some grip.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
It sounds like once you decided that you wanted to
get into entertainment, then you started learning the components of entertainment. Okay,
this is what the director does. You know you went
on an educational fact finding mission.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Did you have a oh, this is.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
How they do things entertainment moment, like a you know
how they say the welcome to the NFL moment?

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Like did you have a welcome to Hollywood? At the
moment where you're like.

Speaker 10 (54:38):
Oh, this, I don't know if it's a welcome to
Hollywood story, but I'll tell you a funny story that it's.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
It was a humbling experience, I'll put it that way. So,
because when I was playing, and when I first probably
the first five years I got out, I was really
on the scene, going all to the movie sets and
video shoots and all this stuff, right because I'm meeting people,
and it was easy for me to get on because
I guess I still had the NFL tag behind me.

(55:12):
So will you know Will's movies, Handcock and all that.
We would always go to the trailers and you know,
hang out, we go, shoot the scene, come out, come back.
We're playing Domino's and Space till the next scene. You know,
they got two hours. I gotta you know, re you know,
do the lighting or whatever. So I forget what movie
it was. I think it was might have been seven pounds,

(55:34):
but so you know me, well, y'all shooting now, you
know whatever? Oh y'all be downtown, okay, on it, get
over there? Hey, what's up to seeing everybody? So I said,
what's up to everybody? And then like I was there
for like maybe five minutes, Like thirty seconds later, dude
was like, uh, you gotta go, Like what you mean,
I gotta go? Yeah, you you can't be over here.

(55:57):
I'm like the first time I ever got kicked off
a set, and I was that's my this is how
they do it in Hollywood moment. Not in a bad way,
but I'm just like, yeah, I have to become bigger
in this business or I need to have more of
a of a footprint in this business. But that was

(56:17):
the most humbling experience I've ever had in my life.
I'm like, okay, if all y'all you know, I didn't
want to be here. I don't want to be here anyway,
you know, one of those. But I remember they kicked
me off set, and that was the first time I
wasn't mad. I was just like, you know what, let
me go. It was. It was the kid that when

(56:37):
the adults were playing basketball and you were too small
and like, no, he can't play yet. That's how I
took that. Let me go work on some projects, let
me go get my let me go get better at
what I do, so y'all go see me later. That's
how I felt. But I remember that was probably the
most humbling experience in the entertainment industry so far.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
So what did you feel like?

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Was a break or maybe we could have been more
than one that really got you sort of in the
right circle of influence and that you needed to be
in Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Yeah. The funny thing is I mean, is it a break,
was it timing or is it both? But I remember
how I met my business partner Brad Furman, right, big
studio director. Now we did the movie to take together.
But how we met was just playing basketball and my
buddy Braxon Polp producer. You know, he's like, we're Gonnavite,

(57:30):
Brad and me and Brad just vibe like we were
like cool, let's go do a project together. He's a director,
I was when I was financial movies. We just had
the same energy, the same go get it mentality, mentality,
the same we don't know what we're doing yet, but
we go figure it out, you know, mindset, and we
end up doing our first project together, you know, one

(57:53):
awards for it was up for an Independent Spirit Awards.
It was a great project for us. And of course
since then he's been doing these huge movies, you know,
with some of the biggest names in the business. You know.
But after we did the take, I thought that going back,
I was like, yeah, how did we meet Brad? Yeah,
we were playing basketball. It was so weird to me,

(58:14):
like it was was it a break or was it timing?
I have no idea, but me and Brad Furman, we've
been too good friends for I guess fifteen going on
twenty plus years now, and we just met playing basketball
out here in La Oh.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
You know, there's probably especially these days, you know, given
the influence of social media, and I think athletes coming
up now feel like, you know, their brand is important,
and a lot of them do want to pivot into entertainment.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
What would be some bits of advice that you.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
Think would be helpful to other athletes who want to
sort to get into the industry.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
Make the main thing the main thing. I think all
the entertainment stuff is a distant priority to what your
career is. Like I was always the you know on
the bubble. I was always, you know, I could be
gone next week. So I just felt like I had
to grind on both sides. And then looking back. Okay,

(59:13):
most of the guys who have these huge brands, it's
it's one phone call for them, you know, they don't
really have to do it. They can call Say, they
can call Sony, they can call Lionsgate, they can call
Universal Records. Like it's one phone call for them. But
your brand has to be that big, and the only
way you make your brand that big is if you
perform well on the field. So I think a lot

(59:36):
of the probably ninety nine percent of the time, is
the guys who want to do both. But you can't
do both because you have to be Steph Curry first
in order to get that deal, or you have to
be lebron first in order to get those type of
you know, these companies calling you back and giving you,
you know, a podcast deal and or you know, a

(59:56):
three pitcher deal, whatever they may be. And of course
also when you play well, you get more money, which
warrants you to be able to invest more or partner with,
you know, other companies. It's always a beautiful thing if
you can go to you know, to Sony and say
I have ten million dollars and I want to do
these projects and you guys bring ten million. But if
you're that guy who played three years and you don't

(01:00:18):
have money and you want to go to Sony, like, hey,
I'm just coming here with an idea, Like those projects
are not going to get off the ground at when
you're talking about the big boys. So like to keep
the main thing, the main thing, focus on your sport
because this stuff you have time to do, like build
the relationships, right, go overboard for helping out that you
know that exec at all these labels and you know

(01:00:41):
studio execs, like, you know, go overboard for him. But
for the most part, like you don't really know the
industry enough to say, let's do a project like just
pump your brakes, go play ball. They're going to respect
you and playing ball. And then when you get done,
then come back to them, you know, with with a
better ideas and a better understanding of what you want
to do.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Now, as much as we've talked about entertainment in this
time that I have you before we wrap up you,
of course, I mean, this isn't really a pivot because
you've done this. You know, you've been coaching and at
the youth level, but now you will be a head
coach at Huntington Beach High School.

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
Look at that, Yeah, buddy, I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Mean you have your own film and production company, all
the things you're doing in entertainment.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Why become a high school?

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
It's the giving back again. I love it. I love
the mentorship of it. I love this kid's trying to
figure out the answers to the test. Hey, buddy, I
have the answers to the test. You know. I really
feel that there's nothing I haven't seen far from a
fifteen year old player to a forty year old retired player.

(01:01:56):
I have all the stories. If you want to end
up trying to be the next a Monad Saint Brown,
and you want to try to be the next Julio Jones,
Like I have all of their blueprints. I've seen them
do it from fifteen to twenty five to thirty to
thirty five. So I like sharing those examples. But most
of the time the kids are not going to do

(01:02:17):
what it takes in order to be that successful because
it's tough. So I can give you the answers, but
at the end of the day, most of them can't
get to that level of dedication and or focus. But
if they even get halfway there, they're usually going to
be a successful person. So that's where I find probably
the most gratitude of Okay, yeah, they're not going to

(01:02:37):
all be NFL players, I get that, but there's going
to be some good kids. They're going to be some
good adults. They're going to be good parents, good brothers,
good sons, good other mentors when they're leading others later
on in life. And I think that's probably the best
part about high school coaching. Again, I have a lot
of kids to just call me, you know, hey, I
just got married last week. I just talked to Matt
Carral just the other day. He just got married and

(01:02:59):
I coach him since he was nine years old, and
you know it's a match just you know, got cut
from Carolina and now he's playing in the other league.
But you know he's went through a lot. Me and
him went through a lot together. You know, he played
for me at Long Beach Polly. So it's like those
stories are those are life changing stores. We're like, this
is why I do it. And again, you're not going
to reach everybody. You're still always going to have some

(01:03:20):
haters and some kids that don't like you the way
you do it. But I really believe that what I'm
giving these kids are the answers and everybody's just not
going to you know, use take the same test obviously,
but they can use it in life. It's not really
about football at the end of the day. These are
life skills. I think that sports in general is a lifestyle.

(01:03:41):
I don't think it's just a sport anymore. I think
if you live your way a certain live your life
a certain way to be an athlete, it's going to
give you those habits and those disciplines to be able
to do anything right. If you're waking up that five
to go work out because you love ball all setting
balls over, You're still going to be waking up at five.
So maybe at this age, at five, you're waking up

(01:04:02):
to read a book. And then maybe when you're fifty
year this age at five in the morning, maybe you're
walking around the neighborhood. Right. But I think that habit
started when it was practice, when you're fourteen years old.
And I think those are the things that are going
to keep you know, keep a person striving for the next, next,
next thing. That all starts with football practice, you know,

(01:04:23):
in August in ninety degree weather at five in the morning.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
So did you did you ever contemplate or think about
coaching at the professional level?

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
Yeah, I tried. I went everywhere I've in turn, I've
done it. You did, Yeah, I guess not easy. When
I got done or when I was really trying to
get into a Denny Green was out of the league, right,
So you usually get in with your under your tree
who coached you, Right, that's your easiest end. I didn't
go to a big college, so I really didn't have
a USC in Texas hookups, right, So I was always

(01:04:55):
trying to get to a league job. But yeah, my
whole Denny Green, the Brian Billicks, all that whole tree.
There are none of them coaching anywhere. So you know,
I'm not saying I'll never do it. You know, it's
still possible. I know my coach with an twentio peers
at Polly, he got the Risk job last year, but
he didn't get in there long enough to really, you know,

(01:05:15):
do his thing. Aaron Glenn just got the Jets job.
You know, I'm gonna hit up a g I like
your boy, you know, down the line. But but every
summer I said, I'm going to go to intern I
go to these uh most of the time, the NFL
has this, uh the internship for African Americans to go
ahead and kind of get into coaching, right, But if

(01:05:37):
you don't make the internship, then you're just left out
in the cold. So I'm like, I think about four
or five years ago, I just started saying, forget it.
I don't want to be in that program. I'll pay
my own honey, I'll stay in my own place and
just let me in the building every day for a
week so I can just learn. And I've been doing
that and so building relationships and learning that way as well.
But that helped. That's helped me a lot because I

(01:05:58):
just again, you're in the same building, you're learning the
same stuff, you're getting the same relationships. Yeah, so I
got I got coaches on every a lot of staff.
So I just go and kind of learn and sit
back and try to figure it out. And you said,
that's what the future holds. That's what the future holds.
But right now being Huntington Beach, you know, bringing bringing
hopefully a state championship over the next couple of years

(01:06:19):
old and I got some some some twenty Gonzalez is
alma mater as well, so I'm trying to bring him
a state ring. But yes, just looking forward to that.
And then if that's in the future, that's in the future.
You know, one of my buddies gets the job and
the NFL they call him, then so be it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Okay, before we wrap up this podcast, and again I
appreciate you spending the time ask every guest also what
I call a messy question. This is where the controversy
starts at all. Right, so here's the messy question. Randy Moss,
your teammate, your friend, your boy you you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Know you already know about Jerry Rice's legacy.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
Yeah, there all is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
That's also your the receiver between.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Lord's Lord, Randy is a Jerry Lord. Can we hit
Paul on this thing? No, so funny. I've studied the
game a lot, I've studied the position a lot, and

(01:07:26):
I've never ever had a number one number three. I've
never done it. I've always asked the question, right, I
always who's your number one? And this is why, and
blah blah blah. But if you're talking about specifically the
receiver position, can can play in any system, can have
any quarterback m hm and get doubled or triple team

(01:07:51):
at times and still put up numbers instead of Pro
Bowl and be all Pro. That would be Randy. I
don't think you could do that. I think Tea could
do that. And the reason being, if you look at
T's touchdowns, this is for everybody to go back invait
it team, go look at Tho's touchdowns and you'll see

(01:08:13):
too running by himself or Steve Farmer guy. Then go
run by himself his one hundred and fifty three touchdowns,
which is amazing that they had the same amount of
touchdowns in their career. That's so awesome to me. And
if you look at Moss's film, He's always has three
or four five people in the frame when he catches
the ball. It was just so much attention that Randy

(01:08:36):
had on him. And to still put up those numbers
was absolutely amazed too. Could he got single covered of
his one hundred and fifty three touchdowns for one hundred
and He's gonna disagree with me, but I've counted them all.
Mass probably was double team over one hundred of his
touchdown out of one hundred and fifty three. It was

(01:08:57):
just different. It was there. And then Jerry to me,
love Jerry, I just don't. I would put him probably
a number four. I probably put Larry Fitzgi in front
of Jay as well. Again, Jerry's got the rings and
he's got the forty nine ers. That's the take because
you had everything with you because and I'm not going

(01:09:18):
to talk about the quarter the Hall of Fame quarterbacks
that you had back to back with Tan and Steve Young,
that's definitely a plus for any receiver. And you had
a defense that was going out there having a three
and out offense back on the field, three and out
offense back on the field. You had so many unities
to get those numbers and the longevity, of course I love.

(01:09:39):
But then Fitz did with a good you know system,
not on a good team, but his skill set alone
I think is top notch. That to me has changed
the NFL's receiver position again. I thought of the ninety
eight change. In the first time with the big receiver.
It was Chris was six three, Raindy was six six

(01:10:00):
to three. Job was six to four, and we set
every offensive record at here ever since that year, which
I want to do it. I can about talk about
this Jay the You've all seen big receivers right since
the biggest came. Then now is what big corners? Because
now the Packers remember the two years later they took
two or three corners every single draft to fit up

(01:10:22):
Randy Moss on the outside. And now as you see
is six two sixty three corners, which has changed the game.
And then the second change in the position was Fits
on the way he was catching the ball because even Harder,
who we all thought had the best hands ever, he
would still catch. You know, do the body catch. Mass
has great hands, still do the body catch. Fits would
catch everything outside of his body frame right. He would

(01:10:44):
reach out and attack the football with his hands, and
of course that's what you see the receivers do, and
that's how receivers are coached. Now, everybody always said, well,
you are done to get to your body, but Jay
Rice cut everything here, Chris Carter cut everything here. Yes,
they could do this as well, but Larry would catch
everything outside of his body frame.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
So I'm just gonna point out that. Uh, I'm forty
nine Ers fan, so I'm a little biased. So you
already know who my number one.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
Receiver is.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
Already.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Jerry had at forty starting back on Lebrea somewhere, and
he still had a thousand yards and Joe Montana was
not his quarterback.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
I'm yeah, okay, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Runner ever ever, but.

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
Rounder definitely. But when you're getting double team routes don't matter.
We're gonna if you have a corner on me and
a safety over the top, and you're gonna buzz out,
will Sam he run a round? That's good enough for
you to catch the ball. I just never see again,
they never They didn't have those defenses back then, So
you know, I get, I get, I know the difference obviously,

(01:11:52):
but I mean Jerry was great. I think Jerry the
longevity and the work ethic of what he's done was amazing. Obviously,
when comes to one person to go against three, you're
gonna pick Randy over Jerry and t O. Every single time.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
You sound like my husband because he often does that
part of it. I think he's trolling me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
But that's okay, you know, but that's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
There's little you know, you know, kind of a wrong
answer there, Like Randy Moss obviously one of the right
to ever do it. Anybody picks him, it's not a
wrong answer you picked, not a wrong answer or right
well listen that definitely, thank you for giving me this time.
You know you're a busy head football coach, so I
appreciate it. Good luck with everything you do there. I

(01:12:37):
have no doubt you will bring them a championships, uh
escape championship. And of course you and I will definitely
talk about any of the future projects that you might
have thinking of up the Absolutely we'll have a conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
You already know, say lest no, thanks for I appreciate
the time, Mama.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
One more segment to go, and you guys know what
that means. I got questions to answer up next. Your
viewer slash listener questions and I have plenty of answers
coming up next on the final segment of Spolatics.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
All right, time to wrap up.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
Things with a question from my politicians new nickname trying
it Out. This question comes from David Speaker, known as
d Speaker on Blue Sky. D Speaker asked, how would
you feel about a politician running on this platform? Eliminating
political parties, making it illegal for politicians to lie, making
it illegal for media to lie, establishing an organization that

(01:13:41):
only gives factual data to the public about bills and policies, etc.
Having age term limits for all elected officials.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
I love it. That'd be great.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
Unfortunately, there's fantasy and then there's the cold hard reality.
Right now, our political systems are entirely too tied to money.
We have a system where politicians can be bought by
special interests and corporations. We have a system where the
wealth of a politician explodes when they become a member
of Congress. Case in point, Senator Rick Scott out of
Florida is worth five hundred and forty one million.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
Nancy Pelosi is worth three hundred million.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
The base salary for Senator, by the way, is one
hundred and seventy four thousand a year, and it hasn't
risen since two thousand and nine.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
And yet there are numerous members of Congress who have.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
A net worth well over one hundred million, much of
which they gain while in office. When the people who
are making the laws and control the purse strings have
that much wealth, it is virtually impossible for them to
ever operate in the best interests of the people. It happens,
but it's an anonymaly as it stands. Members of Congress
can trade stocks, and this is a glaring conflict of interest.

(01:14:42):
I mean, when Kelly Leffler, with Senator in Georgia in
twenty twenty, she sold twenty million in stock after briefing
on COVID. That happened a few weeks before we went
into lockdown. Wonder what that was about. And she was
hardly the only one anyway. My point is that politicians
have every incentive to cheat, live and gain the system
in their favor. To many of them have prioritized getting
elected and staying in office rather than actual public service.

(01:15:06):
Now you combine these financial motives with the apathy that
permeates the voters, and what you get is the rotten
political system that we have today, and the only way
to change that system is that we have to make
politicians pay for not.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
Serving the people.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
We can't check in and out every four years for
the presidential race and ignore what's happening in our cities
and communities. If we practice holding local politicians accountable and
elect the leaders, that will trickle up and maybe one
day we'll see the change we actually deserve.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
Thank you for your question, d speaker.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
Now, if you have a question for me, you can
hit me up on social media or email. I'm at
Jamail Hill. Across all social media platforms Twitter, Instagram, fan Base,
Blue Sky, and threads, please use the hashtags politics. You
also have the option of emailing me at Politics twenty
twenty four at gmail dot com. You can also send
me a video of your question, but please make sure

(01:16:00):
it's thirty seconds or less.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
Send me a video. I don't know what happened y'all
were sending them and then you stop.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
Anyway, don't forget to follow and subscribe to his politics
on iHeart and follow spolitics pod on Instagram and TikTok.
Politics is spelled s po l I tics. A new
episode of Spolitics drops every Thursday on iHeart podcast or
wherever you get your podcasts. This is politics, where sports
and politics don't.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Just mix, they matter.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Politics is the production of iHeart Podcasts and the Unbothered Network.
I'm your host Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Chakoigne.
Lucas Hymen is head of Audio and executive producer. Original
music for Spolitics provided by Kyle Visz from wiz Fx.

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Ep 20: The Politics of Storytelling - Featuring Matthew Hatchette

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 20: The Politics of Storytelling - Featuring Matthew Hatchette