Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
On April fourth, nineteen sixty seven, doctor Martin Luther King
Junior gave a very famous anti war speech at Riverside
Church in New York City. That speech was the first
time Doctor King spoke out against the Vietnam War, but
MLK had much more to say.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I am convinced that if we ought to get on
the right side of the world Revolution, we as a
nation must undergo a radical revolution of values.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
We must rapidly begin.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
We must rapidly.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Begin the shift from a thing oriented society to a
person oriented society.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
During that subsequent Summer of Love in sixty seven, Doctor
King continued to press on in his new struggle. In August,
he gave a speech at Stanford University. In his address,
he connected civil rights to the greater fights around the world,
like the struggle against apartheid. As he spoke of black dignity,
MLKA asked his audience, where do we go from here?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We must stand up amid a system that still oppresses
us and develop an unassailable and majestic sense of values.
We must no longer be ashamed of being black. The
job of arousing manhood within a people that have been
(01:35):
taught for so many centuries that they are nobody is
not easy.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Despite these struggles and challenges, he spoke of, Doctor King
reassured his audience that he possessed a solution to the
present crisis of bigotry.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
The negro must boldly throw off the manacles of self
abnegation and say to himself and to the world, I
am somebody. I am a person. I am a man
with dignity and honor. I have a rich and noble history,
however painful and exploited.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
That history has been.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yes, I was a slave through my four parents, and
now I'm not ashamed of that. I am ashamed of
the people who are so sinful to make me a slave. Yes, yes,
we must stand up and say I'm black, but I'm
black and.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Beautiful, or, to borrow a lyric from the Godfather of Soul,
say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud. This was
all part of a radical change that was already well
under way. It was a collective rewriting of the story
of Black America, the one that folks tell themselves individually, personally, emotionally.
(02:51):
In nineteen sixty seven, black Americans were beginning to construct
new narratives about who we were and who we are.
This was due to heroic effort by both Martin Luther
King Junior and Muhammad ad Li. Muhammad ad Li's biographer,
Jonathan Ig is also the author of King a Life,
recently published poetry prize winning biography of doctor Martin Luther King.
(03:15):
Familiar with the stories of both great men, Jonathan Ig
notes how the two civil rights figures inspired and influenced
each other.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Ali is one of the first public figures to be
outspoken in opposing the war in Vietnam, and then when
King begins to speak on the same subject, it does
help that Ali has already introduced some of these themes.
And I think that it's an interesting moment because I
think the two men respect one another, even though Ali
disagrees with King's integration efforts. And a couple times they met,
they got along great. You know, they're both really wonderful guys.
(03:47):
They're both just really gregarious, fun people to be around,
and they really hit it off.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And then on April fourth, nineteen sixty eight, exactly one
year after the legendary Mary Riverside Church speech, doctor King
stands taking in the morning air on the balcony of
the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee, when he is shot
and killed. Now, Muhammad Ali, the People's champ, is all
(04:19):
but left alone to carry on the global revolution that
he and Doctor King both agreed upon and fought to advance.
Welcome to Rumble, Ali Foreman and the Soul of seventy four.
(04:44):
I'm your host, Zarn Burnett, the third from iHeart Podcast
and School of Humans. This is Rumble. Previously Rumble.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
I know where I'm going, and I know the truth,
and I don't have to be what you want.
Speaker 7 (05:06):
Me to be.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Malcolm X was there and the announced that he had
changed his name to Cash's X.
Speaker 8 (05:11):
He was willing to face conviction for draft division.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Jane Brown said, said, and I Kid said, I'm blacking.
I'm proud.
Speaker 9 (05:20):
American blacks did not have a country to connect with,
So therefore getting to the word black and identifying with that,
that was a step.
Speaker 10 (05:35):
The first thing you need to tell a story is conflict.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
That's the sports writer Mark Kriegel. What he says is
as true for boxing as it is for fiction, or
really for any writing. Muhammad ad Lee certainly grasped this truth.
Ali liked to draw inspiration from pro wrestling for his
pre fight antics outside the boxing ring. Specifically, he drew
upon the boasts and bomb basts of the legendary mid
(06:02):
century pro wrestler Gorgeous George Ali understood what all he
could borrow and bring into boxing and its presentation of
two men fighting inside the square ring.
Speaker 10 (06:14):
Back to Krigel, so boxing is stage managed conflict stripped down.
Both fighters are essentially naked as far as the audience
is concerned. They're pretty much stripped bare. So they go
in there with shorts, boxing shoes, and their histories, and
you're able to examine their histories in pretty much minute detail,
(06:38):
and at some point, more often than not, you're going
to see something intimate, deeply intimate, revealed about the protagonists.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Boxing acts as a crucible that distills essential truths about
the fighters, because.
Speaker 10 (06:54):
The thing about boxing is, for all of its obvious injustice,
it's obvious shittiness. Every so often you see something that
is sublime that actually gives you some kind of hope
that people aren't as fucked up or as evil as
you previously thought, because it is such a cesspool or
(07:15):
tends towards that the revelation is really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Plus boxing was a sport ready made for America's new
mid century obsession.
Speaker 10 (07:28):
What makes it great for America is that it works
well on television, and television is the great American art form.
I mean, it's also the great American shlock form.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
But I mean cinema.
Speaker 10 (07:41):
Started as European. I guess the novel is European, but
TV that's American.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Like much of what you find today on TV and
streaming and online culture, Muhammad Ali offered up spectacle and hype,
unchecked ego, and endless drama.
Speaker 6 (08:01):
I shook up the file, Ah shook up the world.
Ah pretty, I'm a bad man.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And it should be obvious by now that Ali's ego
was fed on his own hype. Same as they nourish
their bodies, boxers must feed their egos. Ali knew this
to be a gospel truth of the fight game.
Speaker 10 (08:23):
To do this thing properly, To get in the ring,
you know, half naked, in front of other people and
try to beat someone up or try not to get
beat up, that act alone requires an insane amount of narcissism.
If you're going to do what Ali did and you're
gonna say I'm the greatest, it's a form of crazy
(08:46):
that's required, and he couldn't have done it otherwise.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Ali's ego moved with the same speed and certainty as
his super fast jabs and hooks. To that point, Mark
Creek sites a great passage from an essay by Norman
Mailer where.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
He talks about ego.
Speaker 10 (09:05):
I think I'm looking at it a little bit differently here,
but I mean, after covering fights week in week out,
one of the things that distinguishes all fighters, but certainly
great ones, is you have to have You have to
have a voracious ego.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
If you don't, you're done.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Or as Norman Mailer put it in his essay, what
separates the noble ego of the prize fighters from the
lesser ego of authors is.
Speaker 11 (09:33):
That the fighter goes through experiences in the ring which
are occasionally immense incommunicable except to fighters who have been
as good, or to women who have gone through every
minute of an anglish filled birth, experiences which are finally
mysterious like men who climb mountains. It's an exercise of
(09:54):
ego which becomes something like soul.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Ali, the People's Champ, possesses a depth of soul. This
is evident in his convictions, yet it's glimpsed rarely by
the press at the time and the news cameras of
the day. However, this depth of soul does show up
on film.
Speaker 12 (10:17):
A Lee was a master storyteller, particularly of his own life,
and that's what these hours of interviews portray.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
In nineteen ninety six, the film When We Were Kings
won the Academy Award for Best Documentary. It was directed
by Leon Gaest and documented the rumble and the Jungle
Championship fight between Ali and Foreman. The film also briefly
presented the accompanying three day music festival known as Zaire
(10:46):
seventy four, and due to unforeseen circumstances, it took twenty
two years to complete. The editor of this fight film
is Jeffrey Kusama Hinty.
Speaker 12 (10:57):
Back in the nineteen nineties, I was a film editor,
or specifically editing on video and I was introduced by
mutual friend to Leon Guest, who said he had about
a week of work to finish off a film at
that time I think was called Zaire seventy four and
turned into at least a year of work and then
kind of a lifetime of commitment and investigation.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
He's also the director of the film's unofficial follow up,
the two thousand and eight concert film Soul Power, which
focused on the three day music festival Zaire seventy four.
Speaker 12 (11:32):
I'm kind of the last person standing, you know, that
actually knows what's there and has seen it all and
has work through it. So it's a very fascinating and
privileged position to be in.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Consequently, as the editor of one and director of the other,
Jeff watched hundreds of hours of footage of Muhammad Ali
in the editing bay. Jeff marveled at how easily Ali
could transform his playful brilliance with language into a devastating weapon.
Speaker 12 (12:00):
As mine moved as fast as his hands. It's fascinating.
His ability with language just brilliant.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
For instance, there's Ali's famous use of rhymes to mock
his opponents and to hype up himself.
Speaker 12 (12:12):
He'll replay the same sequence of I don't know what
you call them, like taunts and putdowns and the rhymes,
but he'll play those over time and refine them over time.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
As Jeff watched all those many hours of footage, he
grew mostly fascinated not with the showman but with the
lesser scene side of Ali those thoughtful, candid moments captured
by the documentary film crews. But Jeff also liked when
Ali was running down his opponents. Jeff couldn't help himself.
(12:44):
Ali was just so undeniably charismatic.
Speaker 12 (12:47):
He started watching Muhammad Ali really talk, not the short
pieces at one of scene.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I mean, he's unbelievable.
Speaker 12 (12:55):
I mean it's literally electrifying, and he can go on
and he has more stamina speaking than there's film in
the camera.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
The press at the time, love him or hate him,
were equally captivated by Muhammad Ali. How could they not be.
Speaker 13 (13:14):
I've been around a lot of famous people and they
don't make the connection like Ali did.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Muhammad Ali is one of Gary Stromberg's favorite people he's
ever known.
Speaker 13 (13:23):
In fact, he's a hero of his I'm Gary Stromberg.
I did the public relations for the festival in Sire.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Being that Gary Stromberg is a legendary PR man. Naturally,
he respects Ali as a self promoting pr machine. But
it's not Ali's hype that he finds heroic. Rather, it's
the soul of Ali that Gary finds so compelling, specifically
how Ali's soul could shake up the world. This is
also what motivated Gary to bring us this story to
(13:54):
share with you.
Speaker 13 (13:55):
We were flying somewhere to Africa with a entourage, Ali's entourage.
We were in the airport and what he would do
in an airport, People become aware that he's there and
they would swarm to him and he would just stand
there and he would sign autographs. He would let you
take a picture of him. He would stand there until
all the crowd dispersed. On this day, we were on
(14:16):
a chartered flight and the guy that was in charge,
the road manager, said come on, we got to get going,
We got to get on. Ali just wouldn't move. He
just stood there and waited for everybody to get what
it is that they wanted. And when we got on
the plane, there was a reporter with us, and he
sat next to Ali and asked him. He said, why
do you do that? He said, do you really think
you need to do that? And Ali said, I do
(14:36):
it because I want to go to heaven. And the
reporter looked at him and said why. He said, do
you think that there's a chance that you're not going
to go to heaven? And Ali said, you never know.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
That same doubt speaks to the depth of the soul
of Ali and how he connects to people, he needs
to people and their love for him was always Ali's
secret power.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Ali's as good as there is.
Speaker 13 (15:02):
He knows how to work a room, knows how to
work a crowd, and that's something you don't You're not
taught or you don't learn. It's something instinctive. So I've
been an observer of that for many years in my
PR career. And the big stars, the really the big
stars are just people who intuit that. Mick Jagger was
one of the guy who really impressed me with that
ability that he just knew how to work the room
(15:26):
and what you give in terms of access and such
to yourself. And Ali was just the best at that.
No didn't have to teach him a thing.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
There was this horrifying image that often haunted Ali's dreams.
This nightmare was spurred by a deep fear that Ali
wrote about in his autobiography entitled The Greatest My Own Story.
Speaker 14 (15:50):
True fighting was all that I had ever done, but
there was always something in me that rebelled against it.
There was the nightmare ima I always had of two
slaves in the ring, like in the old slave days
on the plantations, with two of us big black slaves
fighting almost on the verge of annihilating each other, while
(16:12):
the masters of smoking big cigars screaming and arguing us on.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Looking for the blood.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Ali could not separate his mythic achievements from the American past,
because this past was not so distant. When Ali shut
his eyes, he could still hear the braying, laughter, and
the barks of the slave owners. He feared he was
no different than the enslaved men of the past, whose
bodies were used for amusement. Their strength exploited and profited from.
(16:43):
This same fear is at least partially what motivated his
refusal of the draft. After Ali lost three and a
half years of his prime exiled from the ring as
a punishment for his protest of the Vietnam War, finally
won a victory in court. Judge Walter Mansfield heard an
(17:07):
appeal in which Ali argued that when his boxing license
was stripped from him, it was a violation of his
constitutional rights. The judge agreed. In fact, the judge found
it curious that the New York Boxing Commission canceled Ali's
boxing license due to his legal status as a draft protester. However,
that same Boxing Commission didn't take issue with the legal
(17:28):
status of other licensed boxers, for instance, the many licensed
boxers with long criminal rap sheets. Some had even done
time for murder. The judge ruled in favor of Alis.
(17:49):
On September twenty fourth, nineteen seventy, Muhammad Ali applied for
reinstatement of his boxing license. The New York Times was
tipped off and there to document what went down. The
paper reported that Ali was quote notably subdued and disinclined
to do any boasting, perhaps because Ali was still waiting
for the Supreme Court to rule on his draft case
(18:10):
and decide whether or not he would remain a free man.
But for now, there is one other truth shaping Ali's life.
If he wants his title back, he'll have to fight
the new heavyweight champion of the world, Smokin' Joe Frasier,
the hell Raiser. On March eighth, nineteen seventy one, James
(18:34):
Brown plays a show at the Feigned Club Olympia. The
two thousand seat dance hall is a Parisian institution. Jazz
musicians like Billy Holliday and Ella Fitzgerald played the hall
in the fifties. In the sixties, Edith Pioff saved the
dance hall with a three month engagement. Now in the
(18:54):
early seventies, the classic dance hall is still open and
still serving up the culture. This particular March night, the
Olympia's vibrating with the sounds of James Brown's horn section.
The young shaggy haired French dance in time with the
(19:15):
new sound funk music. James Brown's backing band, the Jabs,
features its original lineup including Bootsy Collins and his brother
Catfish Collins on the drums keeping the beat funky. On
the ones is the legendary John J. Bo Starks and
on trombone there's band leader Fred Wessey.
Speaker 15 (19:38):
That's when Boosy was still in the band and we
did two shows at the Olympic Theater. It was so
well received our first time in Paris. I don't know,
I think it's james first time in Parish too, but
it was a great show.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
James Brown not only plays this incredible two night gig,
he records it for posterity to later be released as
a live alb with the title Love Coward Peace Live
at the Olympia, Paris, nineteen seventy one. It features classic
tracks such as Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved,
(20:12):
and Soul Power.
Speaker 15 (20:14):
His shows were very tight and they were very well organized.
Everybody was on it. Everybody did that part exactly right,
concluded the lighting people and the found people, and the
show was absolutely magnificent.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Lola Love was a dancer for James Brown. She performed
with Fred Wesley, although she was not at that show
in Paris that night, but later on in this story,
she'll travel with James Brown to Africa for the Zaire
seventy four concert. To this day, Lola Love still very
much remembers the first time she ever saw James Brown perform.
(20:55):
It was at the Apollo Theater in Harley, right around
this same time as his gig at the olymp in Paris.
Speaker 9 (21:01):
My mother told me to see him at the Apollo,
and I'm like, I don't do lines. And every time
James came to the Apollo, he ranted the theater out,
and every show there were lines around the block.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
But one day, Lola Love's patience is finally rewarded.
Speaker 9 (21:22):
This one show that I went to, which was like
a twilight show before evening, but later in the afternoon
there was nobody online and I got to go in
and I saw the most amazing three ring circus I'd
ever seen any entertainer do. To the stage, right you
had the horns dancing and twirling their horns. And to
(21:43):
the left they had the most beautiful black dances I
had ever seen, and those were the Mama Lou Park Dancers.
And center stage was the star attraction, mister James Brown, singing,
dropping to his knees, spinning. I had never seen anybody
dance like that.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
It was a.
Speaker 15 (21:59):
Spectacle, That's what it was. Yes, Yeah, And I was
actually proud to be in that band.
Speaker 7 (22:05):
You know.
Speaker 15 (22:05):
The show kind of emulated him, you know, the show
was perfect.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
The same night that James Brown was getting the folks
in Paris up on their feet, New York City was
also a buzz across the Atlantic. Muhammad Ali was about
to step into the ring against Joe Frasier for the
Fight of the Century. They were the two undefeated champs
and only one would leave that ring as the heavyweight
(22:37):
champion of the world. But this, this is the story
of the Rumble in the Jungle. Why are we talking
about the Fight of the Century. Well, for one simple reason.
You cannot understand what happens in that ring in Zaire
without first understanding why Muhammad Ali is the underdog going
(23:01):
into his title fight against George Foreman. But you can't
understand that until you know how absolutely dominant George Foreman was.
And you can't really understand that until you know who
Joe Fraser was as a heavyweight boxer and as a man.
He's like a measure for both fighters, because ultimately, these
(23:21):
three fighters Ali, Foreman, Fraser, the three gold medal Olympians
of the sixties, the three great heavyweight champions of the seventies.
Their stories are inseparable. For anyone paying attention to boxing
in the late sixties, soon as he steps onto the scene,
(23:42):
it's painfully obvious that Joe Fraser is the.
Speaker 10 (23:45):
Most distinct not just of any heavyweight, but of any
fighter at any time. Fraser is a Philadelphia fighter, I mean,
great left hook, bob weave.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Joe Fraser was always one of my father's favorite fighters,
well him and Sonny Liston. What can I say? My
pops likes the villains, the misunderstood champions. But to my
small ears, my Pops and his brothers, my uncles, they
always made Joe Fraser sound so much bigger than life,
which is ironic considering his size. Joe Fraser is famously
(24:20):
undersized as a heavyweight fighter. He stands just five foot eleven.
But for the man nickname Smokin Joe Fraser, height doesn't
matter because Joe Fraser possesses a will that just don't quit.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
He was on Beauford, South Carolina, which is in the
low Country.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
That's the coastal area land of the Gully Geechee people.
Joe Fraser's father was a farmer.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
He also worked as a manual laborer, but only had
one arm.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
His father lost his left arm from a gunshot accident.
Young Joe Fraser worked the farm at his father's side,
and he he did the labor of a full grown man.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
So when they were carrying any large thing, which they
did all the time, like bricks and whatever they were carrying,
Joe was always carrying with his left hand because his
dad had the right hand, so Joe had left. As
a result, Joe's left arms about three inches longer than
his right arm and twice as strong.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Not only that, when he was a boy, Joe Frazier's
left arm was broken by an angry hog. The arm
never did heal correctly. The result his left arm was
permanently half cocked.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
His left hook would damn near kill a person.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Growing up on a farm in rural South Carolina, Joe
had to train himself. He knew he needed a heavy
bag to practice, so he gathered up canvas sackcloth so
that into a heavy bag and filled the sack with
a brick and Spanish moss from the live oaks on
the family farm. He overstuffed his homemade heavy bag until
(25:59):
it bulged. When he was done, he hung it from
a barn rafter. That's how Joe Fraser learned to punch.
Every day after school, every Saturday morning before he worked
on the family farm, even every Sunday after he came
home from church. Seven days a week, Joe Fraser was punching,
(26:20):
working his homemade heavy bag. Joe was never afraid of
hard work, but he sure did hate school work. One day,
Joe Fraser stopped wasting his time and theirs. He dropped
out in the ninth grade.
Speaker 7 (26:34):
I wasn't learning anything, just taking up space, and I
shouldn't want to take up space in that school.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Eventually, Joe moves north to Philadelphia, the city of Brotherly love.
It was a mecca for boxing in mid century America.
Family took him in and he found work in the slaughterhouses.
Speaker 7 (26:52):
I used to tope them steels when I worked in
a Kosha slaughter house. Then I come to the gym
and clear everybody out.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
On his lunch, he would beat a side of beef
he was working in the slaughterhouse. Okay, I got fifteen
minute break, Joe, and go there and beat up the
dam every day, which is where Rocket got that. Yeah,
beating the beef. That was Joe. That's how he trained.
And we know Sylvester Salon couldn't resist that. He said,
that's too perfect.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
An undersized fighter from Philly, a blue collar hero who
was all heart, Joe Frasier was the real Rocky Balboa.
It didn't take long for Joe to become a rank
amateur boxer with a good record undefeated. He won the
Gold Gloves. Next year, he won it again, and again
(27:43):
the year after that, three times in a row.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
In the ring.
Speaker 7 (27:47):
It's me and you, baby, and I'm gonna make sure
as you I don't even want to fight one round.
I want to put the guy away as soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Next Joe Frasier qualified to join Team US SAY for
the sixty four Olympics in Tokyo. Like one of his
other boxing heroes, Cashes Clay, Joe Fraser was proud to
go and represent the USA there in Tokyo. Smokin' Joe
Fraser wins gold at the sixty four Olympics. When he
returns home from Japan, the boxing world takes one passing
(28:19):
glance at Joe Fraser and collectively says, man, no one's
interested in his future. Despite his successes, Joe Fraser's five
foot eleven frame meant he was ignored and undervalued by
the world of professional boxing. But there was one man
who did believe in Fraser, the trainer Yank Durham. He
(28:43):
pushes him, and pushes him. He pushes Joe right to
the top of the heap of contenders for the heavyweight
championship title. Yank Durham teaches Joe if he keeps moving,
popping up to punch a man, then he can pick
his moments and unload his devastating left hook. One clean
shot from Joe Fraser's left and it's lights out. After
(29:08):
Muhammad ad Lei's heavyweight boxing title is stripped from him.
In nineteen sixty seven, the New York State Boxing Commission
decides to hold a single elimination match to crown a
new champion. They planned a gala event at Madison Square Garden.
The date is set March fourth, nineteen sixty eight. Smoking
(29:30):
Joe Fraser, the undefeated contender, steps into the ring to
face his old Olympics trial nemesis, the three hundred pound
beast of a boxer, Buster Mathis. The title fight lasts
eleven rounds. When it's over, the referee doesn't even bother
to count Mathis out. It's that obvious. Nearly two years later,
(29:54):
on February sixteenth, nineteen seventy, again at Madison Square Garden,
Joe Fraser faced his rival heavyweight champion Jimmy Ellis, another
bout for a different heavyweight championship belt. He wins that
one too. Joe Fraser becomes undisputed heavyweight champion of the World,
(30:14):
as one newspaper reported, and a rare burst of exiberance,
Joe Fraser leaped into the air in the middle of
the Madison Square Garden ring and shouted. But Joe Fraser
was not free, and Joe Fraser will not be free.
Not as long as there's an unbeaten former champ on
(30:37):
the scene.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Where's Joe Fraser?
Speaker 6 (30:39):
Where's the white folks champion? When I get him in
a ring, you'll see there'll be no contest.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
The damnable fact was Joe Fraser just wasn't as charming
as Muhammad Ali. It wasn't his fault. I mean, the
brother just tried to be a good America and a
proud black man. He was never trying to be a superhero,
not like Ali. Thus, in their battle of hype and
pre fight press, Joe never really stood a chance. On
(31:14):
March seventeenth, nineteen seventy one, the New York Daily News
reported on the state of the champ Joe Fraser.
Speaker 16 (31:20):
Two days before he was to defend his undisputed heavyweight
championship for the first time. Joe Fraser walked through busy
downtown Detroit at high noon. Nobody recognized him. He wandered
into a department store, slipping and sliding through hordes of
lunch hour shoppers. Only one woman asked for his autograph.
No heavyweight champion in history has been pushed so far
(31:42):
into the background of public acceptance and recognition as has
Joe Fraser.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
The strangest thing about the raw anger and violence that
electrified the famous Ali Fraser rivalry is the fact that
at one time the two men were close friends. Like
they would often hang out and take secret drives together.
According to Muhammad Ali's autobiography, the two fighters liked to
ride around together and beat her cars. They both figured,
(32:13):
who'd ever expect the two champs to be together, let
alone in such a crappy car. In the months just
before their first title bout, also known as the Fight
of the Century, Muhammad Ali and Joe Fraser take a
road trip from Philadelphia to New York, and this particular
trip was special. It's autumn nineteen seventy. Joe Fraser drives.
(32:38):
The two undefeated champs are in Fraser's new gold Cadillac.
I love that car.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Rd I would have killed to being in the back
seat when listening to those guys, But I have. The
next best thing is, you know, the recording of the conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
That's right. Ali records the road trip and later publishes
the entire transcript in his autobiography, exactly as it happened.
Of course, the two fighters talk about boxing and their rivalry.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
There's just two young guys having a good time, giving
each other a hard time, you know, drawing over who's
the best.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Their road trip also provides valuable insights into both fighters.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Frasius really being kind and loving and offering Ali money
and promising him a job in his gym, and you know,
not in a condescending way at all. I think he
just recognizes that Ali is, you know, going through an
extraordinarily difficult time and he's not allowed to box. And
it's just like a couple of brothers. And I mean
that in like the sibling way.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Now, unfortunately we don't have the actual recording, but we
did get our actors to play out a few moments
from the transcript that Ali published in his autobiography, The
Greatest My Own Story.
Speaker 14 (33:50):
I gotta admit you good that I'm the fastest, the
fastest in the history of.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
The whole world. Maybe maybe moving away, but I'm the
fast just moving in.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
At one point, Ali recites a poem he's written about
Joe Fraser. He reads it as if Joe is not
right there driving the car, Joe's.
Speaker 14 (34:11):
Gonna come out smoking, and I ain't gonna be joking.
I'll be picking and poking, pouring water on his smoking.
This might shock Animazia, but I'll retire Joe Fraser.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Both men laugh. Their rivalry is good natured for now.
Later on, during their joy ride, Fraser confesses to Ali
how he was a big time hero to him. As
Fraser came up, I admit.
Speaker 7 (34:41):
He's some kind of inspiration for me. Won't anybody I
ever come in contact with? Every time I see you
running off at the mouth, You know what I said.
I just said to myself, Well, Joe, look this guy
can back up what he says. You gotta do just
a little more. When I go on the road, I
(35:02):
run a little harder because I know I want to
be able to meet you one of these days.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Smoking, Joe also admits to Ali how much he motivates him.
Speaker 7 (35:13):
I tell myself, the only way I know I can
meet Cassius Clayton is to keep on winning, keep on
knocking these cats out.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
You know I had to get to you now here
I am.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
He's done the impossible, He's become the heavyweight champion of
the world and he still can't face Ali. Why because
at this point, the people's champ is exiled from boxing. Meanwhile,
Joe Frazier does all he can to advocate for Ali
to have his boxing license restored.
Speaker 7 (35:45):
They should allow you to fight, you know what I mean.
Taking your license away like they did wasn't justice. Fighting
was your way of making a living for the family
like me, with a family like yours. You know, you
gotta have enough support for them. Believe what you want
to believe in. I'm one hundred percent with you on that.
(36:06):
You got a whole lot of people out there to
believe worse than you. If they give you a license,
I'll fight you any time, any place, but I prefer
should be here in the United States.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
A little later, Fraser tries to floor it in his Cadillac.
He wants to race a plane landing at Newark Airport
just to see if he can beat it. But Ali
tells Joe.
Speaker 15 (36:33):
Say slow up, slow up.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
You're gonna get a ticket for driving this fast. Wouldn't
that be something?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
You getting a ticket and I'm ride with you.
Speaker 14 (36:41):
I'd say I jumped into your car and Joe Fraser
got scared and drove like crazy make news all over
the world.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Publicity is never far from Ali's mind, and so as
the two men drive on, they discuss their public images.
Ali tells Joe he needs to work on his Jesus Frasier,
and he gives him some advice on how to build
up his image as the champ, how to dress, how
to comport himself, how to be more than just a
(37:09):
boxing champ.
Speaker 14 (37:11):
I had the title, but just because I had cars,
was living easy. It was on Johnny Carson and Merv Griffin.
Didn't keep me from seeing my people out there catching hell.
And I wanted to get out there and stand up
and talk to him. Even on the garbage cans, I
like to go around.
Speaker 16 (37:28):
And talk to him.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Toward the end of their car ride, the New York
City skyline looms overhead. This is when things change between
the two fighters. As they drive into the city through
those steel and glass caverns, Ali notes how the folks
on the streets can see them. The fighters now need
to think about their public images.
Speaker 14 (37:50):
We don't want to be seeing too much together, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah, I think we buddies. That'll be bad for the gate. Yeah.
Ain't nobody gonna pay nothing to see too buddies.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Ali desperately wants Joe to be his friend. He even
says as much in his autobiography.
Speaker 14 (38:07):
I wanted to be known as a freedom fighter, but
I still wanted comrades, close friends who did the same
work I did, felt the same way I did. Buddy's
equally strong and dedicated, who would fight alongside me for blacks.
I wanted a buddy like Joe.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
After their road trip is over, the two fighters pull
over the brand new gold Cadillac. They get out in Manhattan,
and there on the sidewalk, the two champs entertain the
passers by right there on West fifty second Street. Ali
of course wants them to go over to Times Square
and really cause a commotion hype up their fight, but
(38:45):
they never do. Instead, Ali watches their chance to be
comrades disappear in a New York minute.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Now, Olli gets out of the car and he's mobbed
as he was almost ebrardy wet.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
While Ali signs autographs for his fans, the head wait
champion of the World, Joe Fraser, waits off to the side.
No one recognizes Fraser like he's some average Joe. He
just watches the people love Ali on the flip side.
As Ali scribbles autographs to his adoring fans, he mostly
(39:17):
just wants to get back in the car with his friend,
but he can't because now he's staring into the eyes
of his rival, smoking Joe Fraser.
Speaker 14 (39:27):
He was standing at the edge of the crowd, his
cowboy hat cocked on the side of his head. But
a chilly feeling went through me when our eyes met.
Speaker 15 (39:35):
His look was that of a.
Speaker 14 (39:37):
Traveling gunfighter who had come into a town to appraise
the fastest gun. There was no envy or jealousy in
his look, only a cold, methodical appraisal. For he knew
that only when he had defeated me in the ring,
with the world really recognized him as the champion. He
nodded his head slowly and got back into the call.
(39:58):
Whatever chance we had being buddies, being close intimate friends,
it was gone.
Speaker 13 (40:04):
They hate each other at times.
Speaker 5 (40:06):
They're constantly in competition, just like you know I am
with my brothers. But there's love there, and that love
seems unbreakable. But turned out maybe it wasn't unbreakable.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Before the two fighters step in the ring, the story
of the Ali Fraser fight becomes a highly charged metaphor
for the culture war dividing the United States. The fighters,
two black bodies, become both the weapons of war and
the battlefields, and in order to hype up the expected fight,
Ali plays into all of it. He starts to call
(40:41):
Joe Fraser the great White Hope. Ali jokingly refers to
Joe Fraser as an uncle Tom. Before the laughing press,
Ali reminds them Joe Fraser is President Nixon's boy.
Speaker 14 (40:54):
The everyday black see me as a man who stood
alone against everything they had to fight every day what
the white man does to them, the army and everything else.
If Fraser whoops me, he may get a call from
Richard Nixon. I don't think Richard Nixon will phone me
if I win.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Now.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
This may have been hype to Ali, but to Joe Fraser,
Ali's attacks feel real as steel. For instance, Ali likes
to flatten his nose, make dumb eyes, and talk in
an exaggerated slave voice. That's his impression of Joe Fraser.
And since it's a black man making the racist joke
(41:32):
about another black man, the white sports writers feel safe
to howl with laughter.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
That's why it was so hard to stick with Ali,
because he does it in front of white people and
then they share the laugh. That's not acceptable for.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Many black Americans listening to what Ali says about Joe Fraser.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
It feels like Ali is almost like winking winking eye
to white people. That was always offensive to me.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
It's certainly shocking for us today to hear the man
called the People's champ reinforce the same racism and white
supremacy he first learned back in Louisville. It was also
shocking at the time. Things only get worse once the
two boxers officially signed their contract to fight.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
When he signed the fight Joe, he started attacking him.
He went right in and start calling him ugly, youo gorilla.
He started having little patoyal gorillas that he was punching
into things. And Joe was actually amazed.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Because remember when Ali was in exile.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Joe helped him more than anybody else.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Specifically, Joe Fraser loaned Ali money, He supported Ali and
his family. He testified in US Congress on Ali's behalf.
Joe Fraser personally asked President Nixon to help Ali get
his boxing license back, and this is what he receives
in return from Ali.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah, I did all this for you, and you're gonna
make fun of me and one of my kids on TV.
They got to go to school every day and have piece.
Your dad's a gorilla. He's using a very very serious,
stereotypical insult that you can't do well.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Ali later says he was just promoting their fight. My
pops is quick to argue he.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Can promote the fight without calling him a gorilla.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
That's beyond However, whatever would hurt the most, that's what
Ali used.
Speaker 5 (43:29):
It's one of the really sad parts of Ali's story
that he keeps falling relying on these racist tropes to
try to downgrade his opponents, to say that they're not
black enough.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
He does it to Sunny Listen. He does it to
Joe Frasier over and over again.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
How you gonna make Joe Frasier the enemy of blackness?
Speaker 15 (43:49):
You know?
Speaker 3 (43:50):
And he did. How you gonna make sign listen to
anemy of blackness?
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Why does he need to do that?
Speaker 5 (43:56):
I wonder what it reflects about his own feelings of inferiority.
Speaker 10 (43:59):
It's something something that bears mentioned because as much as
we love Ali in retrospect, he would do whatever he
had to and against a lot of black opponents. He
was as ugly and racial as he had to be
to get under their skin.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yet it works to the fullest extent of Ali's cruel intention.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Joe Fraser, He'd be almost a shame to admit how
much that hurt him.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
When he does speak up for himself, which is rare,
Fraser's hurt, pride comes through in his words. Note he
still calls Ali by his old name, Cashus clay Well.
Speaker 7 (44:33):
He believes different than me. He believes, muscle, that black
and white should be treated different. A lot of what
he stands for and says is true. I know that,
but I don't want to live off hate. He got
three kids, I got five. They don't need no more problems.
But that don't make me no tomb. I ain't no
(44:54):
white hope. I'm only a hope for my kids. I'm
just doing a job.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
In his autobiography, Muhammad Ali writes about him calling Joe
Fraser a gorilla and and uncle Tom and the great
white Hope, and he minimizes all of it as quote
having fun.
Speaker 14 (45:13):
Because while I picked at him and made fun of
him in public, underneath I truly admired him. He had
the heart of a black fighter. He knew he wasn't
free to go where he wanted to say what he
wanted about race, politics, religion because the fight bosses wouldn't
like it. He knew all that this was the kind
(45:33):
of buddy I needed, one that will go down with me,
walk the streets with me. Our families would know each other,
our children will grow up together.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Instead, he abuses that friend. The most painful irony of
Ali's racist jokes, He's a black man proclaiming a narrative
of liberation while making jokes that could have been borrowed
from a klansman. The author of the book The Rumble
and the Jungle, Lewis Ehrenberg, recalls all the psychic damage
(46:03):
done to Fraser by Ali, which foreshadowed the same damage
he'd later try to inflict on George Foreman, and I.
Speaker 8 (46:11):
Think he came later to regret it, but he never
could personally express that regret. Ali was insensitive, and you know,
just was doing something beyond what was legitimate, even in boxing,
a brutal sport.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
The secret to understanding Ali and his self mythologizing narrative
was how he conflated his victories with victories for Black America.
He believed he was Black America's true champion, and Ali
felt that his title fight against Joe Fraser would be
the indisputable evidence of his greatness. As Ali himself says.
Speaker 14 (46:55):
I've been building up this fight since I was in exile.
It'll be the biggest fight in history, Greater than when
David fought Eliath, Greater than when Grant took Richmond, Greater
than when any two men ever fought each other on
the planet Earth.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
I'll be whipping the people that took my title and
gave it to him.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
When Joe Fraser and Muhammad Ali do finally step into
the ring for their title bout, both fighters are prepared
to die in order to beat the other. It means
that much, and that is why they call it the
fight of the century. Next time on Rumble, Ali got
(47:41):
all the cool people. I never fought someone with so
much drive. I have a new found respect for Joe.
He took everything Ali had. They put each other in
the hospital.
Speaker 5 (47:50):
George Foreman was a great fighter.
Speaker 10 (47:52):
You know, and he was a bit what everybody remembers
about Foremanism. Waving the American flag and the same Olympiad
Tommy Smith and John Carlos held up a black glove
Flix and the contrast could not have been more stark.
Speaker 16 (48:08):
Rumble is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts.
Rumble is written and hosted by Zaron Burnett. The third
produced and directed by Julia chriscal Sound design and scoring
by Jesse Niswanger. Original music by Jordan Manley and t. J. Merritt.
Our senior producer is Amelia Brock. Series concept by Gary Stromberg.
(48:32):
Executive producers are Jason English, Sean ty Tone, Gary Stromberg,
Virginia Prescott, L C. Crowley, and Brandon Barr. Production manager
Daisy Church, fact checker Savannah Hughglee. Additional producing by Claire
Keating and John Washington. Legal services provided by Connoel Hanley PC.
(48:54):
Casting director Julia Chriscau. Episode three cast Abraham Amka, Muhammad Ali,
Johnny Mack as Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, Jonah Weston
as Norman Mahler, Arthur Dent as Joe Frasier, Julia Chriscau
as news reporter. Casting support services provided by Breakdown Express.
(49:16):
Special thanks to Lewis Ehrenberg. Check out his book Rumble
in the Jungle. It's a great resource. Also thanks to
Jonathan I for his book Ali a Life. We would
like to acknowledge our use of Muhammad Ali's autobiography, The
greatest to my own story. Co written by Richard Durham.
It's a wonderful resource and really helped us to shape
(49:36):
this narrative. And finally, thanks to Zaren's pops Zeke, who
grounds this material like no one else. If you like
the show, let us know, like subscribe, leave five star reviews.
It really helps. Also check out our show notes for
a full list of reference materials.