"Homoeroticism" w/ Sabrina Wu RE-RELEASE

Hootie-hoo, glamour girls! StraightioLab will be on hiatus for August. Please enjoy this re-release episode with Sabrina Wu! 

---

In this week's heavily censored episode, we're going back to our roots with some good old-fashioned THEORIZING. After George debuts his provocative new children's book, the brilliant Sabrina Wu joins us to create multiple new animal-centric frameworks for understanding the types of people in the world (let's just say there are three different kinds of sheep, and it's NOT the ones you're thinking of). Plus: What are our "forbidden questions"? Why is our SICK society obsessed with the concept of leadership? What is the shelf life of a slay? And finally: Sabrina introduces a new LGBTQ+ product that is sure to make a splash.

MERCH IS HERE: cottonbureau.com/people/straightiolab

BUY TICKETS TO GEORGE'S STANDUP TOUR: linktree.com/georgeciveris

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON at patreon.com/straightiolab for bonus episodes twice a month and don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, this is George here to say that there
are only two dates I repeat, two dates left in
my amazing global tour Philadelphia on August twenty second in
Boston August twenty ninth, and they are both I'm gonna
be honest about to sell out, so get those tickets fast.
Thank you everyone has come so far. I really appreciate it.
This is the best summer of my life. Enjoy the episode. Bye.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Podcast starts now.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello esteemed listeners, and welcome to Stradio Lab. We are
so thrilled and honored that you are spending your let's
say Wednesday at three pm listening to us.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Whether you're driving in your car to your next appointment
or your home naked from the only bottom, naked, wearing
a shirt Winnie the poo.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Stye, recovering from your former appointment.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Recovering from your former appointment, walking around the house fully
erect sure, going into the kitchen making a grilled cheese out.
You got some hot oil on your on your bare bones.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
If that is you, And we know you want to
turn us off, but we appreciate you sticking with us
through the pain, through the tears, through the crying, and
the screaming.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Just focus on our voice. Focus on our voice, and
not on the physical pain you feel from the scalding
hot oil you accidentally got on your bone, on your bone,
on your butt bone that you got while making a
grilled cheese. And because you were fully erect, your penis
sort of knocked over the pan and then the hot
oil went onto your bone.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, so if we're if this hasn't happened to you,
just so you're clear, what happened to one of your
fellow listeners is their penis knocked the pan pan that
was full of hot oil making a grilled cheese. That
pan hit the ground, causing the oil to splash up
and hit their bone.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
And for that listener, I have one message, and it
is that you know it works better if you put
may on the bread.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh my gosh, not cooking tips. Well, if you can
hear our voices, yeah, we sound weird today. Yeah, and
by weird we mean better, better, more calm, more professional.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
And it's because we're back in Hell's kitchen letting.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
The spirit run through us. And yeah, you know, whenever
we're in a studio space talking about the podcast, when
we make the podcast, it does make us sort of
act like we're pretending to do a podcast, which is
weird because most people this is where they go to
record a podcast. But for us, it always feels like, oh,
today we're playing dress up. Today we're playing podcaster.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Strange well, especially because we're in Hell's Kitchen, which is
where all gay men work in marketing. Yeah, you know,
when we're doing it over zoom in our apartments, wearing
sort of a ripped band tea. You know, it's punk rock,
it's they you know, we're sort of it's like it's
Courtney Love giving a middle finger to the camera.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, it's so Courtney Love. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
And whereas now we're sort of it's more Kim Gordon,
but like appearing having a meeting a better brand partnership.
Not Kim Gordon during Rockstar era.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
No, it's Kim Gordon appearing on NPR.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah exactly. And it's like, yes, she's talking about her
punk rock days and you know, and listen, we love
Kim Gordon. You know, you know she's slay. You know
she has slaid in the past, but in the moment
when she is wearing fully like a vintage blazer in
a studio on NPR, that's not the most she's slayd No.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
But also I'm not here to say when she's slayed
the most. I'm here to just say that she has
slaved and not rank the moments top ten. I'm not BuzzFeed.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I sort of want to know, like, how much does
someone have to slay in order to slay for life?

Speaker 2 (04:10):
How much does someone have to slay in order to
slay for life?

Speaker 1 (04:12):
I'm thinking about this because this is this is going
to date when we're recording this. But you know, today
Gwen Stefani had a sort of embarrassing moment in the press.
Have you seen this?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Uh huh?

Speaker 1 (04:22):
And when Stefani is someone who, regardless of anything she
did during that era, you know when she was in
no doubt she was slaying. That's something we have to acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
I would acknowledge that she was slaying within no doubt.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
And so how much how many years does she have
to go not slaying to in order to no longer
be someone who's slaves.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, there's a lot of people like this, like this
is literally the arc of fame and where it's like
how how good do they have to be for you
to forgive them being bad, bad bad, And.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
I almost think I mean to bring a sort of
back to Kim Gordon. It's almost like and Patty Smith
is like this too, like almost the best thing you
can do is, as soon as you realize you're no
longer slaying, just keep reminding people of the time you did.
Because maybe Gwen Stefani's issue was that she kept trying
to slay in different ways and at some point, you're

(05:13):
gonna run out of ways, you know what?

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, you're saying like she her thirst for sleigh was
like too insatiable that she ended up tearing herself apart.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Right, And at this point, when I think when Stefani,
I don't picture her wearing the you know, bikini top
from the Hey Baby video?

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Uh huh, what do you picture? I honestly picture her
like with Blake Shells. I was gonna say the same thing.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
I picture her on the Voice or whatever show she's on.
I picture her, honestly. I picture her literally getting interviewed
by Jimmy Fallon.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Oh well remember when she slayd Yeah? Wow, Like, how
do you like? I actually think it's funny. When we
started this podcast, we record in person, and we were
almost doing I remember doing like fake liked references, Like
I'd be like, what's up? What the fuckers? Yeah, and

(06:03):
pretend like play, pretend that now that I'm here, I'm
sort of like I'm having an identity crisis. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well it's suddenly the Kunsta is me.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, it's like I've returned to where I was meant
to be the whole time, but it feels different.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Well yeah, it's sort of like when someone I'm trying
to think, who is someone known for being a gester,
for being someone who makes fun of the culture, but
then suddenly they find themselves being awarded by Barack Obama.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Sure, sure, sure, that's what we are. You know what.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
It reminds me of, Actually, what when like like when
Eminem won an oscar. Sure, And it's like it's a
losing battle to try to then win an oscar wearing
like a basketball jersey, or to win an or like
sort of do a speech as though you are both

(06:57):
outside of it, and then you have to either commit
to ignoring the oscars and releasing a statement that says
I'm minem goddamn it, and I only want to write
songs about committing violence against women and I hate the oscars.
But if you're gonna go there, you sort of it's
sort of embarrassing if you don't go all the way.
So now that we're in a studio, I'm like, the
only way, the only way out of this is to

(07:19):
be Terry Gross. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Okay, Okay, we can do that. So George, Yeah, when
did you know that you were going to be a podcast?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
From a young age, I learned to speak and I
would do this thing where I would listen to my
own voice, and as soon as they became aware of
object permanence, I realized other people can't hear my voice.
Only I can.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
So you've talked to other interviews about your mother trying
to silence you tell me what that was like.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yes, she would. When I would cry, she would say,
stop crying.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I mean, and that stays with you. That's something you
cannot forget, you know.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
It's it's it's a way in which mothers of a
different generation didn't realize that when you're When a baby cries,
it's because it wants to be a podcaster.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
When a baby cries, it's a cry for help for
a podcast set up.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
M h. It's a cry for help for a podcast
set up, and it's also an empowering cry that says,
here I am.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
It says, what's up? What the fucker?

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yes, but you know what, she's come such a long way.
She now when I go home, and I start crying
like a baby as soon as I as soon as
I enter my parents' house, I start crying like a baby.
Goo goo ga ga. I sort of throw bread against
the wall. I open the fridge and and just start
throwing things away. I'm fully naked, running across the house,

(08:46):
around the room, up and down the stairs. And now
she knows, and she says, good for you. Yeah, that
must feel really good. It feels really good. And it's
gotten a lot of work to get them, you know.
And yes, I've the authorities involved, you know. For a while,
when she kept saying, why are you doing this? This
is so inappropriate. We have guests over, I would call
the police and I would report her for creating an

(09:09):
unsafe home for her children. At the time, I was
twenty eight years old. Yeah, but you know, everyone has
to learn their lesson. Yes, to give a book coming
out correct, Yes, And it's about my relationship with my mother,
and she does not like it.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
She's like, an accept you as a podcaster, but as
an author, I don't think so, honey.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, yes, the book is a
children's book with pictures, and it's marketed towards children. And
yes the pictures are in fact erotic. Oh no, yeah, yeah.
But to me, I'm like, Okay, no one has ever
done this before. People have written memoirs before, people have

(09:50):
written books of humorous essays that are called like that's
My Seed, But no one has ever done a children's
book of erotic queer photographs of themselves.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Oh that's true. I let me finish. Yeah, dedicated to
their mother. Sure, well, that's really powerful. I'm crying.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
That's all i have to say about that. So I
think I'm ready to move on to the next portion
of this evening.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Well, I think maybe we should invite our guests in.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
And talk about someone who slays.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
But I was someone who's uh slaying and actually doesn't
need to remind us that they're slaying because they're slaying.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
I feel like this guest, I'm almost like, well, ever
since I've met them, they have been slaying, and the
fact that there could be some point in the future
where they stop slaying, and then we have to sort
of grapple with that as a community. Fills me with
so much fear that I can't even think about it.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
I mean, that is the downside to slaying is that
sometimes it creates a when the other shoe drop feeling
like if someone's not slaying, you're not worried about them
stopping sla I know, well, this is the sort of
like catch traice. Well, I don't know if catchno Jew
is the right, but they just run with it. Okay, Well,
so this is a catchin too. Is that this is
sort of a sophie's choice.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
This is a sophie's choice. This is you know, it's
sort of like maybe the solution is to never slay
to begin with.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, isn't there a saying about that it's better to
have slayed and flopped than to have never slayed at all?

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess that's true. I
sort of think it's a it's a it's a very
capitalist impulse to not slay as a form of self protection,
where you're like, well what if I flop? Mm hmmm,
whereas it's more communist to try to slay. No, you

(11:36):
might flop and trust that the social safety net will
catch you when you fall.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Oh okay, yeah, sure that makes sense to me.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
So anyway, please welcome Sabrina.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
Who Hi everybody.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
So Sabrina, before we started recording, we said, be careful,
we're going to do a ten minute intro, and you said, no,
that's totally okay. The first part of a podcast is
always the most excruciating. How did you feel about that?

Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (12:00):
I actually feel better than usual. Yeah yeah, yep, yeah, yeah,
yeah no, and I really mean it, And if anything,
I was just like, I mean, what was so painful
is like I just wanted to jump in so much, like,
congratulations on your book. I I hope, I hope you
get a cattle cat a Newberry Award.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah yeah, but do you know what.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
I'm talking about that?

Speaker 1 (12:26):
I do know what you're talking One is.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
For the art specifically, you know, the.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Illustrations myself or in the photography and the illustrations you illustrated. Yeah, well,
so it makes media.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
It's these really beautiful black and white photographs, charcoal photographs, yes,
charcoal photographs, and then on top of them, I did
a sort of Perez Hilton white uh, white little dumpcum dots.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, oh I love it.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, that's what makes it a kid's book.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
It's sort of fun, right, and I love it when
it's like we it's actually like a picture within it's like, yeah,
you're looking like at a desk that they've the photo
is and then there's comments yes exactly.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
And each book was made by hand from scratch, which
is why it was sort of expensive to produce and
I'm in a lot of debt because of it.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
It's not these why did you Why did you make
so many?

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah? Why'd you make one million? All on your own? Well?

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Because I wanted to be a best seller. What am
I going to do sell one book?

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:29):
That Yeah, Well, you know, the holidays are coming up
just around the corner, on the corner, so you know,
if you're looking for a way to celebrate what's in
February or March Valentine's Valentine's Day.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
What a perfect gift gift to your child.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, for Valentine. If you want to give your child
the perfect Valentine's Day gift, give your child the erotic
book that I wrote containing my nudes.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
You actually bring up an important point, which is did
you ever get like presents, like, did your parents give
you something on Valentine's Day?

Speaker 1 (14:02):
No, that sounds sick and I am publishing in an
appropriate children's.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
No.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
In fact, by I don't know if my parents are
big present givers. The only my dad tried my freshman
year of high school and he was like, he gave
me a ping pong paddle which.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Fell, but you didn't have a ping pong table.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
No, we did, but it still rachly charged given that
we weren't really and nobody think he wanted some bonding
time and then and then a neon green like sweatband,
like like.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Pro oh he doesn't want to work.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
He definitely did not, but but I think you want
to be a look good.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Well he was sort of like, I mean, it's honestly
pretty considerate to be like, well, if they're gonna play
ping pong, they might as well slagh.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah. I mean I remember getting things and no matter
what it was, I would feel shame. I would be like,
oh my god, my parents are in love with me,
Like they literally got your Valentine's They no like like
candy ego or like like I remember one time they
gave me like a bag for like my track shoes,
you know. Yeah, it wasn't like fancy. It was just
like here's a thing because it's a it's a special day.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
Well, here's what I'll say about Valentine's Day as someone
who that's right, grew up in two different countries. Something
that always shocked me about Valentine's Day in America is
how the kids were made to write each other Valentines.
Oh yeah, yeah, what a strange tradition in my opinion,
Like you just write little How did it work? You
just wrote little cards that didn't even have anything. It
was just like from Sam to George and then gave

(15:31):
it to your classmate.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, but it was mostly like we're friends. Yeah, it
was like heart themed. Yeah, it was like taste and
there was like it was mostly like a heart themed Halloween.
Like it's just like kind of candy exchanging. Yeah. And
also it's sort of popularity contest because at a certain
age you don't have to give it to everybody. So
then you're like, oh, I got one hundred Valentines and

(15:56):
then it's like, oh I only got ten. It's like,
well better next year. Learn to make a splash. Yeah,
fifth grade's kind of hard. Grow up, Oh, my god,
did it still happen in and fifth grade? I actually
feel like it did. Oh interesting, Like I think it
like went till middle school.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Well, yeah, I think it.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Was like institutionally supported. Yeah no, that was like I
don't think fifth graders were like if you were really
into it, that's.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Really I wasn't really, I wasn't obsessed with it. I
just knew I'd existed. Were you how was what was
your feeling towards them?

Speaker 3 (16:29):
I was, well, I think I think my school had
a policy where you could not bring, like you couldn't
only give to some people. It was for everybody. And
and I think I even I have, like adh, I
never remembered to bring anything for anyone. It was like
a big like I take, well, that's never really give.
That's kind of a power move though, thank you.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
I mean it was to.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Get back, yeah, and all the other social suffering.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
I mean, it's just.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Sort of crazy to think like that you were forced
by the powers that be to give a Valentine to
like someone who may have bully you or someone who
you disagreed with politically.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Well, I think it was what's that toxic positivity where
they're almost hoping that it would like make everyone get
along and be like, if you can just just give
them a card, say's like thinking of you.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
But on the other hand, it is sort of like,
you know, it's it's poly inclusive. It is you know,
everyone is in love with everyone in fifth grade, You're
Valentine's is such an individualistic like either we're in a
couple or you're not. Sort of holiday as soon as
you turn eighteen. But it's nice than for a while
there we all just lived in a sort of you know,
uh Swedish commune.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yes, it was very beautiful. Wow.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah, I love my fifth grade polycule.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I'll never forget any of them. Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Well anyway, Sabriena, how are you?

Speaker 3 (17:46):
I'm great? This was this was the highlight of my day.
Oh my god, the vocal point of it.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
So that's incredible.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
That's incredible. So George, you're right now. Do you want
to talk about that? No, no, we're cutting that. We
can pivot to me. Yeah. Would that be so crazy?

Speaker 3 (18:05):
No? No, And it's not because I didn't give enough
right no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
No no no, it's because Sam asked the forbidden question and back.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
You know.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
What we'll do is we'll beep it and then we'll
just like reference it as the forbidden question.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, well, I guess I first want to apologize for
asking the forbidden question. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Well, there's only one topic that is off limits on
this podcast.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
But yeah, yeah, and it's tough because you know, we're
sort of like you said, punk Rock Lower east Side
nineteen seventy CBGB's And I thought, okay, so I can
say anything, and you know, George is doing you know, boners,
burning bone neckx and and and the children and stuff.

(18:42):
And I was like, Okay, let's see what else. Let's
see where else we can push the envelope here.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
To me, everyone can have one forbidden question. Like it's
I'm trying to think of like you know, like celebrities
that don't want to talk about a specific thing. It's
like you, if you're Tom Cruise, your one thing can
be that you don't want to talk about scientology. But
that's it. You can only have one forbidden question.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
So where he should ask him about a sexuality.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
We should exactly yeah, And if he doesn't want us
ask about a sexuality, then he has to talk about
being a scientologist. You can have it both ways.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Wow, do you have a forbidden question that we're not
allowed to ask a definition. I don't know if they
will be able to.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
No, I'm an open book. You can't ask me anything
you want.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
That's a trap.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
No, I'm serious, No, I'm serious, Like, ask me anything do.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
You think is the worst question one of us could
ask you.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
I can't believe you asked me that. Oh my god,
oh you know what? To be honest, like if you
ask me what my thoughts are on representation, I actually
like glitch out and like like spiral, Yeah what.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
I and I hate to now harp on this what
sort of specific like part of the representation conversation? Would
you be most unwilling.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
To talk about craft to the worst possible question? And
we won't. We won't, we won't.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Ask it back. It's sort of like like you're in
a podcast two white gaze are they're just like us
but uglier? Yeah, exactly, two white gays that are just
like us, but uglier and sort of inside and out
and dumber.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, you know, like, okay, you know what. It's sort
of like if I am an actor is making like
representation for my own like groups that I'm a part of,
like really like good for the world and like morally significant,
like as a like does it make like me like
an amazing person if I'm like but it just depends

(20:43):
like Okay, do you know what I'm saying? Just sometimes
it's just like a little okay, I feel like I'm
being crazy vibrating to me.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
The question is like, and maybe correct me if I'm wrong,
and maybe this is not what you're touching on. But
it's like there's a way to frame those questions where
the only possible way to answer feels self important and moralistic.
So it's almost like the person setting you up for
a trap where they're like, do you feel like the
work you do is important? And you can't be like,
well no, but you also can't be.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Like actually really important.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
Right total yeah, yeah, yeah, right?

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Is that what you're saying a little bit a little
bit of that?

Speaker 3 (21:22):
And this, this is what I'm saying when you ask
me this, I've become completely incog my brain.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
But I actually love that.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
And actually that is a better reason to have a
forbidden question than something you actually don't want to talk about.
Because I agree with you is that the topics people
are most interesting interested in often are the ones that
have the most nuanced and therefore the ones you don't
want to talk about in like a live podcast format.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Absolutely, it's very save it for the book, Save it
for the book exactly.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
I Have you ever done something sort of interview based
and then asked them not to release it?

Speaker 2 (22:00):
No? I have really. Wow.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
I did Greta Titleman's previous podcast. It was called The
Worst I Believe, where you talked about like the worst
moment of your life or like a bad moment of
your life or something, and I talked about like the
nitty gritty details of a breakup. And I got home

(22:25):
and I was like, what was that?

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Like?

Speaker 1 (22:27):
In what world did I think I would then feel
comfortable with that being like in the Apple podcast app
for Life? And I texted Greta. I was like, I'm
so sorry, like, absolutely don't release that. Wow?

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Was she okay with it? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (22:42):
I mean listen, maybe behind my back she was dming,
you know, texting every other member of the Brooklyn comedy
scene and was like, this dumb fag, George doesn't want
me to release this episode. But no, she was incredibly
nice about it. And I think it's like, you know,
and thank god she was, and thank God, because now
I seld it as a book.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yay. Do you guys want to know my forbidden question? Yes? Yeah,
it's where were you on January sixth, twenty twenty. Wow?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
And with that, should we do our first segment?

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yes we should, okay, Sabrina. Our first segment is called
Trade Shooters, and in it we ask you a series
of rapid fire questions to gage your familiarity with in
complicity and straight culture, especially this thing or this other thing.
And the only rule is you can't ask any follow

(23:37):
up questions.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Great, great, okay, Sabrina. Gentleman's Quarterly or Lady Marmaalide, Lady.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Marmalalide, drag him okay, Hulk Cogan or Cat Cohen.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
Oh, my god, Cohen, that is an incredible question. Okay,
Madam X or mister Magoo, mister Magoo.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Okay, your chosen family or your chosen financial plan at
Morgan Stanley.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Anything but chosen family, okay, Sabrina. A gendered happy meal
toy or a rendered image of what New York would
look like with more inclusive urban design.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Chosen happy meals, so I can say it.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Okay, lost air pods or the Last Airbender.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Oh, Last Airbender.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Okay, Friday the thirteenth, Sunday, Bloody Sunday or Wednesday now
streaming on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Oh, Wednesday streaming on Netflix.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Okay, Puss in boots or Venus in furs?

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Huh, Venus and furs?

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (24:51):
It's kind of crazy that there's a children's character named
Puss and Boots. I know, I know there's a sort
of way in which which this is a sort of
horseshoe theory of gay culture and children's culture, where it's
sort of like Puss in Boots could either be like
a really inappropriate drag queen, or it could be a

(25:11):
cat wearing boots.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, and thank god it's the ladder.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
And thank god it's the ladder. Otherwise I would have
to vote republic.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Wow. Well, I just want to say I think you
did incredible. I think I'm gonna say nine hundred doves.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
We rate each guest on a scale of zero to
one thousand doves, and I agree it was a nine
hundred doves performance.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, there was a cool confidence there.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Nine hundred doves.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
When where did I lose the other one hundred doves?

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah? I mean, do you want to hear the critique
or yes, yes, Sam, you can go for Okay, First
of all, you had sort of a knowing confidence and
we really loved that about your performance, But there was
sort of a dismissiveness to the questions that we just

(26:08):
worked so so hard on and yeah, so I felt
like that was sort of where we docked some doves.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Well, that wasn't the tone I was trying to strike.
I was really trying. I mean, I really respect you
to you know. I I even listened to a couple
of episodes.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
You know, Sabrina.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
It's like, we gave you nine hundred doves, which is
a very good score on you know, there's no denying it.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
There's not a perfect score. It's not sorry sorry, but.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
You know, to focus on the negative like this and
and suddenly make us justify our score that we selected
completely arbitrarily on our podcast.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
This is why you're never gonna slay. How do you
think I've gotten this?

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you know. I do think there's
something about being complacent, and I think a lot of
times sometimes I'll be like, oh, it's good. You know
how people are like practice gratitude, be happy for what
you have, Like what if that's wrong. Like sometimes I'm like, oh,
I love my like little Bushwick apartment and I love
my like simple life.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
No, it's like you, Tom, you have to leave that
apartment asam.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
I need to like go into like major debts that
I have to work really really hard to get out
of it.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
And I do want to say one thing about your performance, Sabrina,
is that the fact that you I'm now realizing the
fact that you challenge the nine hundred doves sort of
makes it a thousand doves. That's true because I think
the fact that you knew not to challenge us when
we told you not to ask questions, but then as
soon as that part of it was over, you immediately
were like, well, I want I want to see the paperwork.

(27:43):
I want to see the receipts. Why didn't I get
a thousand? And then we honestly didn't have a good
enough answer for you. So the fact that you exposed
us for the frauds we are means that you are
winning a Pulitzer Prize in journalism and the prize is
a thousand doves.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
Wow, this is like, this is actually a really important
lesson all the children who are listening.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
No, It's true.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
In high school, I used to, you know, just like
be really negative on myself every time I you know,
got like a nine out of ten on a you
know what I mean, I'd be like, but then there
were always a bunch of kids that would go back
to the teacher and be scary, just like the way
I was too, really scary, and then the next thing,
you know, they have a four point three.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
GPA messed up.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
It's really like, honestly, one of the most important lessons
in life is to know when to challenge authority and
when to sneakily not challenge authority so you can build
up more challenging power later on. If you had sort
of responded to each one of our straight shooters with
like fuck off, then at the end, at the end,
you would have no more leeweight like, we would have

(28:40):
no more patience for your challenging and you would have
no leeway to challenge your score, which would at that
point be like sort of a hundred and.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
It's your Every time you asked to be a question,
my brain was like.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Not now, yeah exactly, because you were like, what if
later I will need to challenge right.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Exactly, Yeah, I mean to be honest, if you had
responded to every single one yelling at us fuck off,
I would have to stand. Unfortunately, that's true.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
I mean it's really tough because we are, on the
one hand, authority figures. On the other hand, we ourselves
are kind of Kim Gordon, So it is difficult when
we respect the challenging of authority. So it's always like
my challenging authority, you're in fact pandering to us.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I do think we create a toxic environment by like
we reward people being bad. Yeah, and we actually need
to reward people who are being good.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Have you ever been in it?

Speaker 3 (29:27):
I'm so good.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Do you feel like you would do well as an
authority figure?

Speaker 3 (29:31):
No, I actually like actively like avoid positions of authority.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Like and you've been asked, oh all the time?

Speaker 3 (29:38):
No, well not later in life, because i've But but
I think like when I was like in high school
and college, I was especially high school, I was always like,
let me be captain of the team. But I was
dropping yeah, like I was dropping balls left and like
not like bas like yeah, like you know, like metaphors
the team dinners, like you know, if there if I

(29:58):
didn't have like if there wasn't so much like you know,
you need to so I thought it sound like such
an ass.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
You do not sound like any but there's like a lot.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Of pressure, like everyone should be a leader, everyone should
be a leader. You got it in your head and
you're like, okay, like I don't think I should be
a leader, but I'll do it because that feels like
who I'm supposed to evolve to. But leader in life,
I've been like, yeah, I just fail everyone around me
every time I do it.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
I mean, this is such a rich topic, and I
honestly think like leadership could be a straight topic on
the podcast. But yeah, it's almost like what replaced religion
when society became secular.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
It's this obsession with leadership. It's like if Jesus is dead,
someone else has to step up. I mean leadership also
in business goes so hand in hand.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
But yeah, but also when you were a teen, did
you have sort of like leadership camp or like leadership
man one right, Yes, I remember seeing those. It's like
the best thing you could be told at twelve years
old is that you're a leader, not what are you leading?
What if you're leading like QAnon? What if you're literally
leading the charge for the insurrection. I mean I bet

(31:04):
a lot of them were twelve year old leaders. Yeah,
well yes, I mean certainly cerebrally. It's just like it's
very it's crazy that the fetishizing leadership. I mean it's
the same as fetishizing like business success, where it's like, well, okay,
a at what cost be to one end? Yeah, those
are the forbidden questions and our society.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Wow, yeah, it's very like okay, but leading what like yeah,
it don't want to will lead anything.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
You'll have the like they did sort of within the
framework of leadership off or something for the pose who
were not leaders, and it was you know, what's even
more powerful than being a leader being the first follower.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
That was like wow, did they say that?

Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, it was a big thing. It was like and
they even have this like viral video. I'm butchering this,
but in my head it exists as there's a bunch
of sheep.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
And like one sheep goes this way, right, and but
it takes it's the second sheep for then the rest
of the sheep to you know what I mean, Like anymo,
that's the idea was like anyone.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Can be a leader, but to discern, you know who
there follow that fascinating At least that was like sort
of the sort of you could I think that kids were.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
First sheep is taste maker.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
First sheep is taste making? Wow? Is it okay? Now?
I'm like, I don't know how I feel about that.
Am I against the first? Am I against the tastemaker sheep?

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Like?

Speaker 1 (32:26):
Do I think that's a sort of toxic framework? Or
do I actually love that?

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Because if the tastemaker sheep is queer coded in fashion,
do you think like the leader, the leader is straight,
The leader is Barack Obama, but the tastemaker sheep is
you know, will I am writing the Obama song?

Speaker 1 (32:46):
No?

Speaker 2 (32:46):
I think I mean, unfortunately I idolize the tastemaker sheep.
I I you know, I remember following the tastemakers sheep
on Twitter in like twenty twelve and just being so
influenced by tastemaker sheep and you're sorry. So I feel
very like I just hope to someone that I am
the tastemaker's sheep.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
I know, to be the tastemaker sheep actually is such
a powerful position in culture. I'm not realizing and talk
about like to go back to the conversation about slang.
It's like, at some point the tastemaker's sheep loses their
taste making abilities, like they either get too old to
be in touch with the culture and not. I I'm
not saying that in an ageous way, but just to

(33:25):
sort of like they get out of touch. Let's say, yeah,
they snap and become reactionary, or they misunderstand their own
position and think they're a leader rather than a taste
maker sheep, and so they start making like merch and
it's like, well, you just run an Instagram account that
curates tiktoks.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
And so okay, yeah, that's where the taste maker's sheep
starts falling off. For me, the instagram accounts that just
curate TikTok and I think.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
That the framework would then say, you know, well those
are the third, fourth, and fifth followers. Those are not.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Or so an instagram So an instagram that creates tiktoks
can never be the tastemaker sheep. That's sort of fourth, fifth, six,
I don't.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Right, because yeah, you're right, that's already viral.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, wow, that is very that's really true. So there's
literally like the one million sheep.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Okay, so so it goes leader, tastemaker, curator.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
The more we're talking, I'm sure this video wasn't of
sheep and I, but.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
The way the way it has been cannon now for
it might as well be years.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
No, like the merchant is being made.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
The idea that you think there was any going back
from this is laughable.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Like I'm actually seeing all the sheep, and honestly, I'm
realizing that it's kind of a danger because we're going
to be having our listeners counting sheep in their head
and they're.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Going to be falling asleep and it's you know, it's
like leader, taste maker, curator, leader taste maker curators.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
You're having the sheep. They're like, okay, so there's seventeen
sheep in the creative world.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
I'm sorry, but not to go back to children's books.
This is a genius idea for a children's book, and
it actually like so perfectly describes our contempt ray society
like to have. It's like the three sheep. One is
a leader, when is a tastemaker, one is a curator?
Which one do you want to be? And each person
has it's the three personality types.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
Oh my god, this is going to end up in
like it's going to be a company personality. Yeah, it
already feels very Myers Briggs.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Do you respond well to things like that where it's
like there are three types of people, there's four types
of people out there, Like is that something that compels you?

Speaker 3 (35:27):
It's something that like all right, honestly, like if I
take it, if I take a little bit about all
I will be doing that for twelve hours taking sure,
But it's not like I'm I'm sort of always like,
oh no, I'm glitching out again. Maybe this is a
forbidding question. I'm like, uh uh uh. It's just sort
of like you know, I can never talk about feeling

(35:48):
like I mean, there's some true then it's also totally
like fake and this that you're you're telling a machine,
right and then it's spitting back exactly what you've just
told it and reducing what you just said.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
But even like not a test, but sort of a
framework that is your like the idea of introvert versus
introvert where it's like you get your energy from being
around people, where you get your dreaming alone, or the
idea or even like astrology, like you know, is it
like a comforting thing to put yourself in a box.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
I have the most embarrassing tale, okay regarding this, which is,
you know this podcast. Like I said, it's edgy, it's
punk rock, it's nineteen seventy TVGB Debbie Harry and I
we've always mocked sort of people that really lean into
the introvert extrovert thing, and it's sort of been like, yeah,

(36:37):
we get it. But recently I was around people for
a long time and I physically got sleepy in a
way that was like, like I think I'm I think
I'm an introvert.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
I've always sort of thought you were an introvert.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
And this is shocking to me because I was like, no,
I don't even I don't believe in it like everyone's everything. Yeah,
And now I'm like, oh no, I believe in it
so hard and I actually think I know where I fall.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Do you want to know what was a game changer
for me?

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (37:05):
Sorry, go ahead, I'm just actually don't brave. I'm feeling
like your first follower through this that I actually also
recently really started to identify as like an introvert. Really
needed it to like not feel like crazy, and especially
like in comedy, there's totally way, way too much, like

(37:25):
there's way too many social dynamics and like something about
being like, oh, I really like just who I am.
My natural baseline is not the same as these other people.
And it's just like it's nice you don't like beat
yourself up about like totally whatever.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
No, I think that's true. Vulnerable moment.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Wow, cringe a little bit.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, it's okay.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
I recently had a moment of deep connection to something.
I a categorization schema that I read. Oh and this
is in the book Pure Color by Shilahad And it
sort of starts out in it it's almost like you're
reading a biblical fairy tale or something in the beginning,
and it identifies three types of people bears, birds, and fish.

(38:10):
The birds see the world from a remove and they're
sort of like the cultural critics of the world. They're
like not making you know, intimate personal connections, but sort
of seeing the world that are removed and making grand
esthetic and you know, artistic judgments. Then there are the fish,
which are sort of like they care about social justice.
They care about everyone equally, and they care about equality

(38:33):
and things like that. And then there are the bears
who would develop personal connections and they sort of can
care deeply about like one to four people, like they
develop like intimate connections.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Hmm.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
And I was like, this is actually a better framework
than a lot of the things out there. Would you
say you're a fish, bear or bird?

Speaker 2 (38:54):
I have no idea. I'm still mulling it over the
well we can check in at the end of the episode.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
You don't think that, like, wait, which one's the one
that has no close friends?

Speaker 2 (39:04):
So which one's a loser?

Speaker 1 (39:05):
But Bird is like imagine like too many friends, Susan Sontag,
She's like out of remove, She's like judging society almost
like from outside of it.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
But then fish are like care about everyone equally and
wants social justice and equality.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
And bears bears are like mother.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Bears are like a really caring friend that like has
you know, thrives in like intimate personal relationships rather than
big picture.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Which one are you? I mean?

Speaker 1 (39:42):
I think I think I might be bird.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
This is kind of what's the scariest one that's really scary?
I mean I could see you as Bird.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
That I mean, by the way I do develop intimate relationships.
You have.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
So that I don't have.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
But it's sort of like I do feel like my
instinct often is to like try to to a fault
almost like try to think big picture and try to
like I don't know, come up with a diagnosis for.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
What I'm seeing. Sure, I see that this one seems
This reminds me of the representation question a little bit,
because there feels like no way to pick one without
being self aggrandize.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, and because all of them are good. I mean,
either you are an iconic cultural critic, or you care
about social dresses, or you are like a really good friend, daughter, son, parent.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
I okay, Well I have a reading on the fish
one that isn't like I mean, I don't not care
about social just as Sure I'm not saying this is
somebody who's like the most like you know, I mean
never whatever, Okay, but I think I am a fish
in the sense that like I actually cannot like there
are so many people I defend that I don't like

(40:57):
that are not close to me, yes, or that are
even problematic, like like like controversial figures like within a
community that everyone else is like, you know, like I
really think, like I think a lot about like is
this fair? And like, h really, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
But I almost think that's a bird impulse.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Really yeah, because you're like doing critical analysis, Like I
feel like fish is simpler. It's like wanting everyone to
be equal. It's like not caring more about someone who's
closer to you than you do about someone on the street.
Like it's a sort of equalizing thing, Whereas what you're doing,
I think is is is like critical analysis.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
What do you think? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
I think I don't get what the bird is.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Up to and why is the fish social justice? Like
that seems like an oversimplification, Like I guess I have
to read the book to sort of see how we
got Sure. I think that could help inform because the
bird I get like visually, oh yeah, they're removed, and
why they're seeing the world in this way.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
I think fish think of like a school of fish
all together, you know, it's like more collectively minded.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Oh okay, sure, I think I'm either fish or bear,
but I don't know which.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
Wow, I feel like such a bitch for identifying as
a bird.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, well your tweets say you are all right, Well
should we get into our topic? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (42:19):
So, Sabrina yeah, I would love it with all my
heart if you would tell us what topic you have
brought forth today for this episode.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
Sure, and I'm actually gonna try to move faster through
my sentences.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
There is no reason to move faster or slow.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
I need to get a thousand doves on this whole. Sorry, sorry, Okay,
I did, I did come. I I wanted to talk
about homo eroticism.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah m hm, I mean it's sort of the topic
that it's sort of the umbrella topic.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, that is essentially what this podcast is about. Yeah,
it's that. So what what led you to homooroticism? What
was your way into totally thank you? As a straight topic?

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Well, as I like trying to come up with something
straight to talk about, I was gonna like talk about
anime and then like then my which I think is
some people think of as pretty queer, but I I like,
I have a pretty strong like I don't. I don't
think so Like the women anime are have a very

(43:19):
flat personality and the largest tits I've ever seen, even
if they're the strongest fight Okay yeah yeah right, so
but the sort of pause is like, well, you know,
it's very homo erotic, like a lot of these characters
are sort of but it's like the fact that there
is this sort of concept of homo rot right, like
if it were homosexual, that would be gay, but alas

(43:42):
it's it's homo erotic. It's like, it's the what we're
saying is it's so close, but it's actually not. And
who even wants that other than you know what I mean.
There's even closeted closeted that's for gap, like that concept
and that's pretty homosexual.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
It might make no. No, you're making actually so much sense.
It's insane.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
It's the straightest thing you can be, because it is
saying this is not it's literally no homo. It's saying
this is not gay.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
I love the making them mutually exclusive homo moronicism and homosexuality,
I think is one very funny and two very I
see the truth in that. The anime point about, like
the women's huge tits and flat personalities. There is an
element to that where it's like, were these made by

(44:37):
gay men? Like oh sure, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
When you you know, when you see misogyny out in
the wild, you always have to ask yourself, is this
gay misogyny or great misogyny. Often the result. Often the
result is pretty similar.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, it's like yeah, it's like, well, she is slaying right,
But did she wants to say that.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
A sexual object? Or is she an iconic object?

Speaker 2 (45:03):
No?

Speaker 3 (45:03):
I think you're imagining these women like a little bit
too powerful, like they are sort of like.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Do you think Lara Croft is Lara Croft is? She's
an iconic object's?

Speaker 3 (45:15):
Is she an anime? She's a video video?

Speaker 1 (45:19):
But I'm just thinking about other sort of like exaggerated
fictional animated or animated adjacent women who famously have giant breasts. Okay, Okay,
So how would we define homroticism? I think maybe that's
a good place to start.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
So it's two guys, two to four guys. Yeah, it
can be women. Okay, this is the first I'm hearing
of this.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Like, Sam, women can be home erotic to one another.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
I'm listening and I'm learning. Yeah, okay, okay, so it's
a group of people.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
Yeah, And just just to say, as a non binary person,
non bin new people cannot cannot be erotic. It's never
You're never like this is you'd be like no matter
where they lean, you're like that's gay. But it's really.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah. Yeah, well that's sort of how it's.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
In that way, you are breaking the ultimate bioneer between
home eroticism and homosexuality.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah. Wow, wow, something you think about, something to think about.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
To me, it's like it is the hint of everything,
but antal it is like the hint it is. It
is hinting at homosexuality, hinting at same sex attraction. Sure, sure,
but is it something more than that?

Speaker 2 (46:48):
I mean, don't we refer to like those weird old
Greek art paintings that are like two guys like truly
going at it. Does that not kind of homo erotic?

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Well that's that is a very good question, because you
do see actually like a truly three guys having full
on sex. Yeah, And people are like, wow, this is
so homorotic, And I'm.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Like, no, I think it's a little more than that.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
That's actually porn. But it is try sweet.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
It is straight people who are going morotic.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Yeah, be like oh my yeah god, that's true.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Well, accusations of homoticism can almost be weaponized both ways,
because straight people can look at something fully gay and
be like wow, I guess that's a little homerotic, and
then they're like straight washing it. But then gay people
can look at like, you know, Ben Affleck and Matt
Damon and be like that's homorotic. It's like, well, no,
you're like trying to make it gay, right, they're just friends. Yeah,

(47:43):
I think, huh, we don't know, we don't know. Maybe
that's there forbidden question. Yeah, I mean it is sort
of like the fact that Ben Affleck's most lasting relationship
is with Matt Damon and then he keep he sort
of is dating an iconic pop star Jennifer Lopez. It's
kind of gay.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
That's really gay? Actually, Yeah, So.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
Okay, Well, thoughts on like queer baiting and how it
that was like sort of my thought on the subway,
like how it fits into.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
All of this talk about it? Forbidden question? Oh God, Like,
don't you think it is impossible? Like the idea the
concept of queer baiting is one of those things that
I don't think I could form a coherent thought.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
About the way that that is a circle always when
people start talking about it, and always like oh.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
No, no, no, because yeah, because my instinct to be honest
is to almost be like that is sort of tumbler bullshit,
and I don't and I don't care about it, Like
it literally does not make a difference to me that
Timothy shallow May is playing a gay person yeah or sorry,
which I realized is like a different that's different than
queer baiting, or that Timothy Shallomy is wearing a you know,

(48:48):
bra on a red carpet.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
Harry Harry Style.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Yes, yeah, but then of course someone does toe the
line too much, and then I do become upset who
tows the line too much, which not toes the line,
But like I mean, I think Harry Styles is a
good example. It's difficult to talk about this without while
also being like, I actually don't like none of this
is morally important. It's just annoying, don't you think like

(49:12):
I think it is. I think you can be like
it is annoying and it makes me roll my eyes
when Harry Stoules is like I've never identified as anything right,
when he's dating a lively wild But that doesn't mean
I think he should be arrested.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
No, I don't think he should be murdered. I think
he should be allowed to put out more music if
he wants to.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Yeah, and and by the way, talk about homeroticism, I
actually think I think if you're gonna queer bait, go
all the way. Like I love that Bruce Springsteen like
makes out with U that forgetting his name if you know,
you know, he makes out with like a member of
a male member of his band, like and it's like
a thing that people know about and he will like
kiss him while they're on stage, or like who's the

(49:52):
guy from Arctic Monkeys Alex Turner He has like this
other group and they always are like being intentionally like
caressing each other's like pecks on stage, and it's like
everyone knows about it and it's fun and they're like
almost making out and I'm sort of like, well that's
that's fun, and that's more fun to me than Harry
style is just wearing a dress.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah, what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (50:13):
My thoughts are I also break down, but this one
and not to be so serious, but like the the
only thing that gives me pause because I generally also
find it like annoying. It's just like I don't know,
like it's also a lot like to like what's what's
the what's the alternative? Like given a world where like

(50:35):
Harry is like even like gender queer or like it's
just like when you're that famous, I feel like the
steaks are insane, And to ask somebody to be like
overtly gay, it's like honestly like, I'm sort of like
and that's why I break down. Oh, that's why I
just jumped shit from this question because I'm like, I'm
not I don't think queer baiting conceptually is great. I
just think that like, like queer baiting in a vacuum

(50:57):
is not great. But like pushing somebody to like never
seem gay unless you're ready to fully commit to being
openly gay, especially as like a world, like in a
world where there is so much like violence, Hey, YouTube
is scary. I'm sort of like, yeah, like do it,
Like does that make sense? Like the danger of courbating
is like it's very hard to tell if somebody is

(51:18):
queer baiting or just like trying to be.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Kind of yeah, as like a twenty four year old
or whatever, yea whatever age Harry styles is. Yeah, Yeah,
well did I ruin this party?

Speaker 2 (51:31):
No? You didn't ruin it. You didn't ruin it. I
think that I think we're at eight hundred doves.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (51:39):
I don't know. I think those I also I mean,
we're this is people being like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
But I think it's but I think it's almost like
it's a class. It's almost like weird that we haven't
discussed the concept of queerbating on the pot because it
seems so relevant to our interests.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
It seems so easy to be like to come off
as ignorant when talking about this, because I am. I
am more like, ugh, like this is so annoying. Yeah,
like like if you're gonna be gay, be gay, and
if you're not, then not or like even say like
I'm questioning or something like there is a label. There
are labels for a reason, and some people like Harry styles,

(52:17):
it seems like there's I don't know, it seems like
there's some authentic part of him that like wants to
explore something and I celebrate that and if not, then
this boy cuckoo. And but then there's like who's really
bad at it, like like Charlie Pooth, Like I feel

(52:41):
like he's one that it's like he he's just trying
to like get gay guys to like him.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Okay, that is so funny that you say that, because
I prefer Charlie Pooth's brand of queer baiting, because what
Charlie Pooths will do is just post a picture of
his ass and then have a funny captain. It's like, well,
there's my ass, whereas what Harry Styles will do is
long a line of gender neutral clothing for Gucci. And
to me, I actually prefer Charlie pooth just posting a

(53:08):
photo of his ass like that actually feels regardless of
whether he literally as a He's like sitting back there
in his layer and is like I'm gonna get these
gay guys to press like on this. Even if it's
completely inauthentic whatever, it feels at least fun and spontaneous
in a way that like Harry Styles launching a brand
of nail polish does not. Sure Sure, Sure that makes sense,

(53:30):
And I feel like the best sort of like non gay,
you know, when I think of like prints or when
I think of like, I don't know other people that
have played with gender over the years without necessarily be
like coming out and being like I'm gay. It's that
it comes from a place of like fun mm hmm,

(53:51):
rather than a place of like calculated branding.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
And profit and profit. Yeah, So if you want to
explore with your presentation or your sexuality. Go for it.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, but don't you make a damn dime until I'm rich, Sabrina.
If you were to launch a brand that that that

(54:25):
targeted the LGBTQ plus community, what sort of product do
you think you would launch?

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Oh my god, Oh I would I would get lesbians
like a hat that cannot go backwards?

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (54:43):
Is that okay to say? Yes?

Speaker 2 (54:44):
I can say, well, this is always the question is
how do you enforce that?

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Right? Well, it would start like making a noise when
it's the other way.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
It would just be like maybe there's like a weight
in it where it's like this, like you could spin
it around as much as you want, but the bill
always moves to the front. Oh my god. Yeah, but
maybe it's like a magnet.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
Yeah, oh my god, yes, it could be done with
magnetic properties.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
Wait, I'm actually going to do this in my lifetime.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
That's perfect. Oh. I think that's genius.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
And you agree like there's something about that.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Is not our place to say, Sabrina. And if that's
how you feel, then absolutely like make that and make
that pronouncement on our podcast. But you're not going to
trick us into agreeing with you. That lesbians should not
wear backwards hats.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
It's not even like that. It's just and I'm look,
I love every lesbian, not all equally clearly, but you're
not right, I'm I'm unfortunately the bird.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
You're a bird.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
You're a bird in the sense that you're like, why
aren't all these lesbians rang backwards hats?

Speaker 3 (55:41):
Well, it's just that I guess, like if I had
to see my preference, like I prefer lesbians. Oh, you know, well,
I think of lesbians on a spectrum, right, there are
the best beautiful lesbians.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Backgrounds lesbians, right, Okay, you say beautiful. Yeah, love a spectrum.
We we love a spectrum.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
Lesbians in their backwards When I see them in the
audience of a stand up shop, I'm scared, Like I'm
actually scared that they will okay, And then on the
other side of the spectrum, a lot of them, honestly
are It actually gets buyer on this side. But it's
like it's the turtleneck big pants. Oh kind of, and

(56:20):
I generally sort of not lipstick, No, no, no, there's
in fact no lipstick actively chapstick, like it's that, but
it's like it's it's the tumblr ho but not even
like it can be just more like more like a
lit like a quiet meeting versus like loud sporty.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Got it right, it's Rooney Mara and Carol No, is
that the actress.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
Carol?

Speaker 2 (56:51):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
So you're you're saying Tumblr thought your words.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
I guess that's what I'm saying, like Tumblr thought on
this side, and I kind of.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Don't really like hat on one side, right, And I'm
sort of.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
Calling between both worlds, like in terms of like I
love like or I don't like read a lot and that,
but I did play like a lot of sports, like
you know, but there's just something about like the backwards
hat where I'm just sort of like, to me, there's
a lot less like let's think about queering the world.
It's a lot of like I love women, I love like,

(57:25):
I love drinking my beers and like, and I guess
it's or and it's not even like every lesbian with
the backwards hat is is is like that, but they
are perpetuating that culture because that is a symbol that kind.

Speaker 5 (57:39):
Of yes, yes with like with equal way guys, any
other uh well.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
I don't know any other symbols. Ye, I don't know,
you try to believe that out.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
If you're a lesbian wearing a backwards hat, you might
as well be wearing.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
A You actually have to cut that out, George, Can
you just bleep it can use their imagination about, you know,
sort of what Yeah, came to my mind.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
Yeaheah, it's a lot of bleeping this.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Yeah, this is really maybe we should advertise it even
as like straight e lab censored like never before.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
Yeah, Sabrina, do you feel like when a lesbian I'm
not even gonna ask how you're going to police that
these hats only be worn by lesbians. I'm just gonna
assume there's a framework in mind. But let's say they're
only worn by lesbians. Is your goal for the person
who wears his hat to then sort of be led
to self reflection? They try to turn it around, it

(58:43):
doesn't go around, and then they're like, wait a minute,
what am I trying to do by turning my hat around?

Speaker 3 (58:47):
Exactly like when you try to turn around it says
things like don't say shoddy or don't like, don't like if.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
You're what you know what I mean, like it's tire shoes.

Speaker 3 (58:55):
It's actually specifically maybe for white and Asian lesbians or
like you know what I mean, like light skin line,
cannot you know what I'm trying to avoid. It's what
is that called like a hey mama, lesbian? I want
to it's not it's not eugenics is I'm not like
killing No, I think there should be fewer. I think
there should be fewer. And then it's not, that's not

(59:16):
who lesbians are like at their core.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
You can put one of those types of lesbians in
a museum totally, and then the others will change.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Just inside the glass with no one's going to see this.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
But you know, you know what, if I were to
describe what Sabrina is doing, I would say, imagine the
emoji that's biting his lip.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Yeah, yeah, that is sort of the vibe. That's the
kind of lesbian vibe that you're talking about. Yes, I
can picture it so well.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
And in fact, the biting of the lip is even
more evocative than the backwards hat in some ways.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
I mean, the way that you've painted a picture, I
wish there was video. I feel I know this person, you.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Know, yeah, well you know someone who used to be one.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
I used to you used to be the really.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
I mean I'm was never a hay mam. There's no
pard of.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Me that good. You know, yeah, did you say shoddy?

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
No? No, but I was so close, like I definitely
wanted to. I was like, you want to ask my
girl out to prog and learned how to dance?

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
And when she would like saying my girl or even
like god forbid my lady?

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Right, Never my lady never said my girl out loud,
but definitely thought that way, you know what I mean.
Like internally, I was like, why is she going to
problem with that guy? Like I'm just as good at
sports as him, and and I I can dance like
I'm so good at like you know, it's just like whatever, whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Maybe she knew that he was a really good leader.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
He wasn't I was a good leader.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Wow. I thought you were dropping balls.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Oh my god. That wow.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
I'm like really learning a lot about how I Does
that happen to you? Where you're like as you age,
you're like your conception of your earlier self, Like as
you talk, you're like, we I don't know what I
think of how I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Was like it's hard to create a succinctah, and like
we we talk about how we both think of ourselves
as like we were really good boys, and so now
we kind of feel like we can be really bad
and be like, well everyone knows we're good boys, and
it's like no, like it's kind of like you can
slay and then you can stop playing. But yeah, for
how long until people just in terms of being a

(01:01:17):
good boy?

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah in the frame and the in
a family framework, slaying means being a good boy. But
I also, I mean, I've talked about this before, but
to me, the episode of thirty Rock where Liz realizes
that she used to be a bully when she thought
that she used to be the victim. Do you know
what I'm talking about?

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Oh yeah, seah, that's like the first episode, right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
She like goes to her high school reunion and she
thinks that all these popular girls bullied her, but in fact,
what happened was that she was so afraid of being
bullied that she would like preemptively be like, what's the
deal with your mom's pill addiction? Like to the popular
girl whatever. That's like one of the lines whatever. And
I do I mean not to say that I was
that bad, but I do think it was a form

(01:01:58):
of self preservation. We're like, because you don't want to
be the butt of a joke, you then speak out
of turn and like make fun of someone or like
think you're punching up. But it's like, well that is
still a thirteen year old boy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Yeah yeah, so yeah, but uh no, to answer your question,
we know exactly who we are and we always know
who we've been, and.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Yeah, all narratives are linear.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
And yeah wow wow, well homeoticism, yeah, I actually think
we like randomly got deeper than that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
I completely agree. I'm trying to think of like what
is the straightest Oh my god, wait, we haven't even
talked about this. What talk about women in homeoticism. The
epitome of straight homeoroticism is like the dorm poster of
two girls making out, do you know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
What I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Like I know, or like the beer ad were the
Twins where it's like I love twins, like that sort
of Sabrina.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
You look, well, yeah, I guess I'm I just don't
know this dorm post.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Oh okay, oh so I think maybe you're like truly
like a couple. It's generation younger, but like people listening know,
there's a poster. It's a black and white photo of
two girls, two girls very sort of like conventionally attractive
thin girls in like underwear and like a tank with

(01:03:21):
no bra exactly, and they are about to kiss or
maybe in the process. I think they're making I think
they're they're actively making out.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
But it's like that is it was in like half
of all dorm rooms for for like I think a decade. Yeah,
and then of course, like to you know, it was
like that in the pulp fiction poster like oh.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
That one is still around with the bananas.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Or like thin.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Or think about the Rolling Stone cover that was Blake
Lively and Layton Measter licking an ice cream cone? Does
that bring any bells? Not as many, but you can
clearly imagine what I'm saying, Yeah, simply just the two
of them both like the same ice cream call. All
I'm saying is like men fetishizing lesbianism is the ultimate
sort of Homerooticism is straight of course, that's true homoonism

(01:04:09):
for straight consumption, for straight consumption, and then for man,
what would it be?

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
It would be the Abercrombie guys exactly in two thousand
and three, Yeah, abercrom against two thousand and three.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
And also soccer players after they win, when they all
are just like literally fingering each other, like why do
they do that? It's actually insane, Like they need to
stop talk about queer baiting. And we're putting Harry Styles
on the cross.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Yeah, put the UK soccer team on blast, like what
are they doing? Well? I think we should maybe do
our final set. I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Any final thoughts on homroticism, No.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
Just thanks, And I can't believe I missed such a
huge topic, like oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Yeah, yeah right, I'm really excited about the launch of
the hat thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Yeah, I can't wait for that party. And where we
do operate an investment fund and we're looking for things
to invest in, and we especially love queer creators.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
I think legally I could not make this hot without you,
given that I will use patent magnet to college rare.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Right, and that was our idea. Yeah yeah from the
lab Yeah literally literally wow wow, Okay, will you introduce
our finals? I would be honored and overjoyed. Our final
segment Sabrina is called shout outs, and in this segment,
we pay homage to a classic straight art form called
the radio shout out. Think TRL Think, a radio morning

(01:05:32):
show on Z one hundred. We are shouting out to
something that is making us say, Okay, Sam, do you
have one?

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
What's up?

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Everyone around the globe? I love you, I see you,
and I want to give a quick shout out to
riding my bike. I have not been riding my bike
as much recently. I blame the pandemic, and then I
blame sort of leaving the house less generally. And today
I met a friend for lunch and I rode my bike,
just a short, little fifteen minute bike ride, and I said,

(01:06:05):
this puts me in an incredible mood. I feel my
mind is cleared. I feel in touch with the city
of New York, and I feel like, yeah, I'm still
rough and tumble. I'm still a guy who rides a
bike somewhere. And maybe Carl pass me and go hey,
stop it, and I take up space in the road,

(01:06:27):
and I'm happy to do it. I think that's why
my ass looks the way it does because of all
those biking years. And I just want to say, I
love you bike riding. You make me feel whole. Wooo
wow wow.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
I think that's why my ass looks the way it was.
What are the Hottter statements you've said on this podcast recently.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Yeah, you know, sometimes you gotta lean in or lean back.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
I'll say, let's see, I'm trying to think of one.
I know you gave me so much time, and yet
I still am coming up blank. This is truly insane,
the second time this has happened to me this week.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
You've got it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
I know. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Okay, okay, what's up everybody out there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
It's your boy, George, and sorry for introducing myself as such.
We'll have flaws. So I want to give a shout out,
respectfully and honorably to my favorite breakfast of choice recently,
which is a piece of toast cottage cheese, pistachios, and
then cracked black pepper. I'm telling you, comind this baby

(01:07:32):
with a fresh pot of Joe, and you are cooking.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
And I've already shouted out good culture cottage trees on
this podcast, but this twenty was years ago. So for
all our new listeners, go out there, get some good
culture cottage cheese, get some bread of your choosing, get
some shelled pistachios. I know it seems so glamorous and
so expensive, but you have to treat yourself to shelled pistachios,
put a couple.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Of them on.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
I'm talking no more than five to six, and then
if you don't mind getting messy, sprinkle some olive oil
on it. And if you are sort of on the go,
just the black pepper will do. And then go about
your day. I guarantee you you will get that big client,
you will land that big meeting, and you will get
that job. Why because you had a good breakfast.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
Woo. I love that you're a breakfast freak. I'm not
like a I know that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
When we were together in La famously, I kept having
three eggs every morning. You were like so addicted. I know,
and I do love making breakfast into an event. But
when I'm working, I love just like that's sort of small.
I mean, I'm talking one piece of toast, Like just
like to have a tiny meal to just wet your

(01:08:44):
appetite for lunch and know that in three short hours
you'll eat again. There's nothing like it. Wow, are you
a breakfast person?

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
I am a breakfast person, said I love when I
get I think that in the morning, I'm the most
open minded and the foods that I do think eggs
are gross.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
But you don't like eggs.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
I mean, I eat them, but they feel very gross. Yeah,
like I eat them, and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Just like I think the morning is a special time
to like, I think, yeah, it must be an enjoyable
time to eat, because I'm eating the foods I would
never eat past the hour of like toast, eggs, Yeah, yogurt,
They're all kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Like I have been.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Really, I have been Grandma so much like I I
just am never in the mood for yogurt, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Not that makes one of us anyway you're eating, feel
free to go for it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
Okay, I'm all right, Okay, Hey, Sobrina wooser Hi, okay
him some so, oh my god, there's gonna be a
soundtrack underneath this too hot. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
I have to shout out. I love all of my
followers equally, but there's one there's one fan in particular
that I have to shut up, mostly because actually, two

(01:09:58):
and a half years ago he said to me, if
you ever get on Radio Lab, there is this segment
cold shout outs, and it would actually mean the world
to me if you shouted me out. He is somebody
that I that I auditioned for many avant guard plays
he directed in college, and yeah, he casted me into
the ensemble. He's so hard but sorry fellas, he's taken
and he's so delightful. A huge fan of the pod,

(01:10:21):
Thomas Peterson. The shout out goes to you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
Who oh my god. Yeah, oh wow, Thomas, Wow, unbelievable.
That was incredible. That was amazing. Do you ever get
like reminded that people actually listen to this podcast and
go whoa not if I can help it, I'm like,
how the hell did he hear about this? Oh? Wow?

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
It's crazy. He got like all my everyone that I
did like plays with in college obsessed with this podcast.
That's actually why I was like, I need to prep
for this because you were gonna listen and actually, be honest,
it feels like I'm auditioning again for a play, like
I feel stressed.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
Well, let me tell you something. Sabrina got the row
you booked.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Wow, thanks so much for doing the po I always
love ending on a sort of self congratulatory note. Yeah,
good job George, and good job to you, well, thank
you everyone for listening. Job and to you yeah, and honestly,
great job Thomas, because you know what Thomas.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Is for sheep, for sheep influencer, sheepmakers, sheep, that's a tastemakers.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
Yeah, we have to go, but taste maker sheep is
one of the most incredible inventions.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
That's the name of the hat company.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
Yeah and yeah, and my challenge to everyone is spend
just spend some time thinking about the Sheep framework because
it's actually genius.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Goodbye, Goodbye,