"Incel Culture" w/ Kate Willett

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, Hello, this is George with a very quick stand
up tour update. You can see me in Portland, Oregon
on August third, San Francisco August seventh, Seattle August eighth, Washington,
d C. August seventeenth, Philly August twenty second, and we
finally have a new Boston date with a ticket link
and everything. Boston is goingbe be the last stop on

(00:21):
this tour, and it's going to be August twenty ninth,
and I can't wait to be back. All tickets are
at George Severis dot com if you just click the
summer tour section, or at my link tree, or in
all my bios in all major social media platforms. Enjoy
the episode.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Podcast starts now, Wow Wow Wow Wow Wow. We are
hanging on by a thread, and yet here we are.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Podcast. Ask you something, Yeah, do you think the wow
wow wow has now become like a part of the intro?

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh? Not consciously, but I think maybe you're right.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
I think you used to do it occasionally, and it's
definitely like a samism, but I have noticed that it's
now always part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Wow. Well, it wasn't on purpose, I do think, you know,
especially on a day like today where I do feel
like we're both struggling. It helps me sort of rev up.
If I say wow, wow wow enough, I'm sort of like, okay,
you're on what I was telling it to myself, I'm
like wow, wow wow, wow wow. I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
There is nothing more humiliating than feeling too tired to podcast.
When I think about the things that other people have
to do. And I'm not even talking about nurses, doctors,
you know, uh, I don't know political operatives, I mean
just other entertainers. The fact that people have to do
a matine and like two shows a night.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
No. When I think about people that are on Broadway,
I get scared. I'd say, that's like I wouldn't be
able to do that, because right now we have it is,
you know, two pm my time we are podcasting. And
I literally before this, I was like, I don't know
if I'm gonna be able to get through it. I
don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, And just to give people a peek into what's
going on with me, I so I just did the
first two nights of my Big World tour. I did
Chicago two nights to go in Pittsburgh last night.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
How was it?

Speaker 1 (02:28):
It was both of them were incredible. Shout out to
the dn Theater and shout out to Bottle Rocket in Pittsburgh,
Like I was. I have to say, Blue surpassed my expectations.
Everyone was so nice. Both places were so I'm I
almost am worried that I'm overdue for a big bomb
and so we'll see if that happens in Seattle for
Leonards San Francisco coming up soon. But in Pittsburgh, which

(02:53):
by the way, was an hour away, it was like
the next town over from Butler County where Trump got shot.
Oh so Trump got shot. We all learned about it
right before I went up on stage. It turns out
I've been getting dms all day. Some people learned about
it from me on stage. WHOA because they were like
going into the show, they hadn't read the news. They
were like, you know, buying a drink and taking their

(03:15):
seats while I was like looking at my you know,
all my different news apps. I get up on stage
and I made some joke. I was like, you know,
it took me a while to get here because I
had to make a stop in Butler County and then
half the audience lapped, and half the audience like didn't
know what I was talking about, and then we had
to like get into it and people learned about it
from me, which I felt it was my honor to be.

(03:36):
I was sort of you know, the Christianam'm poor of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,
just for one night giving people the big news.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
That's really exciting.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
So I woke up today. I say this with nothing
but love and nothing but respect for the folks that
provide me my Airbnb. But unfortunately the ac was broken
and they accidentally forgot to give me bath towels. So
I when I woke up, I was it was a bit.
It was a bit touch and go, and then I
had to fly to New York. There's doing something you

(04:05):
at JFK where you have to take a bus to
take you to the Uber station, and then the Uber
home took a full two hours and I got home
twenty minutes ago. So that's where that's where you're catching me.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Hmmm, well that's a bummer. Meanwhile, I just had an
incredible weekend.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah you're just hungover. Yeah that would be not to.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Be just just hungover.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
That's actually you're basically just like at home and hungover,
kind of like you always are when we record.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
No, it's actually you don't understand.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
I was on the front lines of journalism.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well I was, I'm making new friends, George, you know
what that's like, or with yourself out there.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
I actually want to know more about this because, as
everyone knows, you know, I'm having a brat summer. I
We're switching spots and I'm going to you know, I'm
going to parties left three six five goal And I
told myself in Pittsburgh, you know, there's this gay bar
that everyone talks about is called Hot Mass. And I
was like, I, I'm gonna be brave and I'm going
to go by myself. I have no friends in Pittsburgh.
I'm gonna go by myself and I'm gonna have a

(05:05):
good time. And I chickened out.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
You chickened out.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
I chickened out. And I will never forgive myself. And
I'm I need to get back on the brat summer
horse because I can feel myself slipping back into old habits.
Oh no, but tell me about your night.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, I literally, well, you know, as I firmly believe
there's no ethical way to make friends. As an adult,
I think you just have to put yourself out there
and everything has so much shame. So this is a
friend I met at the Eagle on one random night.
It turns out we have people in common, and now

(05:41):
I've been hanging out with him sometimes and guess what.
So it was his boyfriend's birthday party, and when I
met him at the Eagle, I was like, who is
this guy? Like? He looks so familiar to me. Turns
out remember when we did those like Apple ads? Yes,
he was there. Oh totally, he was recording us. Isn't

(06:02):
that weird?

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Oh yeah, I got good vibes from him.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
He's a fun guy.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
So his boyfriend is you're a new friend.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, and we're yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
And now he's your new friend.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
And now he's my new friend as well. And his
friends are your work friend.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Wow, Sam, so interesting. So your way of getting back
into the swing of things, I guess is hanging out
with work friends. And it's not work, That's what I'm hearing.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
It's not work. It just was a second point of connection.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Just when you decide to try to catch up with
me while I am staying out past eight a m.
Every night, You're saying, Oh, I'm going to go out
to the Eagle hanging out with work friends who work
at Apple.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
It's not It's not like that, George. It's not like that.
We're not coworkers. Okay, we don't follow HR rules. It's
not like that you better or not.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
No, I was really I was. I have to say,
I was really disappointed in myself. I was like a better.
I was talking to Jake Cornell. Jake went a hot
mess after his show in Pittsburgh, and I was like,
you know, if I was Jake Cornell, I would have
befriended people at the fucking venue and then gone to
the bar with them.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
I mean, didn't you even like get on like an
app or something like?

Speaker 1 (07:04):
You know? I did, just do I did. But I
have to say I wasn't excited by sort of the
interactions that were happening.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Okay, rude, Sorry, all of Pittsburgh doesn't have a single man.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
That is not what I'm not making a common is
one's appear. I was, no, it's not at all. In fact,
there were many attractive people. I was just like, none
of these people are people I'm currently trying to be
friend and go out with you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Sure s sure, you know my favorite bar in Pittsburgh.
I told you about it, right, Lucky's.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Oh is that the one with the naked people?

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Oh wait, I thought that was the same one. How
does Pittsburgh have such an amazing gay scene? I guess
everyone talks about that? And also that lesbian movie with
Kristin Stewart is based there.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Oh really, and no one's talking about this.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Actually, you'd be surprised. People really are. If you look
up gay Pittsburgh, it's all things about that movie, because
I just did that two days ago.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
As someone who you know, you work in the news,
you pretty much break the news. You're pretty Uh, I'm like,
what how did you? What did you sounded that notion
and make you feel?

Speaker 1 (08:10):
God? You know, it's interesting. I when it happened, I
was like, damn, what are the chances I have to
do like an hour of stand up comedy truly, like
forty five minutes from where it happened. And I kept
saying that to myself. I kept self mythologizing and being like, wow,
I'm sort of I'm like in cabaret, like I have
to do a big comedy performance, just you know, a

(08:32):
few miles from the big tragedy, and then I enter
the venue and I start sort of saying things implying
that to people, like I keep being like, wow, what
a night, huh, And no one cared about what I
was talking about. People are like, yeah, it's been hot today,
and I kept no, like, no one was in a
weird mood because of it. It was completely fine.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
That's so funny. You're you were really being my middle
school after nine to eleven and being like for the
Space High School in Ohio, like they're coming for us next,
Like I know.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
I really was, like I told I was like, I
wonder if there's gonna be police presence. I really had
it in my head that I was like in the
scene of the crime. And then in fact, so it
turns out, so I looked outside my Airbnb and there
were like four police cars and I was like, oh, wow,
like there's a police presence. Turns out I just was
right next to the police station. So they were parked

(09:24):
there permanently because for the job, and in fact they
were off for the night because it was a Saturday.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Wow. Yeah, I really enjoyed the sort of like like
like Michelle Obama tweeting like this is not who we are.
I thought that was so fun. And I will tell.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
You one of the nice things about working as a
night live performer that night was that I wasn't seeing
any of that, and I was, And I had the
instinct this morning when I was like heading to the airport,
I was like, oh, I should catch up on what
everyone has said. And then I was like, no, what
if I just skipped this one?

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah? I was like, yeah, I thought it was really funny.
It's so funny for like Joe Biden have to be like,
you guys, stop, don't do this. This is bad.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
I can't wait, can't in fact get we can get
into it. But with our guest, how does that sound?

Speaker 2 (10:14):
That sounds really nice?

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Well, I am actually so excited to have her on
and it sort of is incredibly overdue that we haven't
had her on recently. She's what I don't know if
you know this, dam she's one of my not only
my oldest friends in comedy, but maybe the first comedian
I ever met.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
What the hell?

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Well, please welcome Kate Willie.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Hey, am I really the first comedian you met?

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Okay, so, Kate before I ever started a comedy When
I lived in San Francisco. I saw you open for
Margaret show at the Convent.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Oh okay, yes, I remember that show.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, and I like met you just because we had
a mutual friend, our friend Helen, And I was like, oh,
how cool, Like I only the only comedians I was
aware of were like people I grew up watching on TV.
I'd never met like an actual working came that was
like around my age.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
Oh yeah yeah, and that was such a fun show too.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Margaret was so amazing. Yeah, and it was such a
small venue.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
That was sort of cool. So it was so this
was in this like cooperative housing thing that our friends
lived in and correct me if I'm ro on CAPA.
Did Margaret move in there for a while?

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (11:21):
So she went like basically she was at a time
where she was I think ending an extremely long term relationship. Yeah,
and she was kind of just like looking for a
change while like her ex kind of was moving out
and stuff. And so I met her at a show
and started talking to her, and then she's like can

(11:42):
I I told her about this place that I lived,
the Convent, and you know, I was like, we should
do a show there, And so she did the show.
But then after the show, she's like, could I like
sub let a room here or something? And I'm like,
are you joking?

Speaker 1 (11:56):
It was a crazy yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
And then she did.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
She's sublet there for like two months, and I hang
out with her all the time, and she hung out
with like these all these weirdo hippie artists, like guys
who do reiki and stuff. Well, it was like twenty fourteen, so.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
There were a lot of white guys with dreads total
times white.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
There's a dread.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Very burning man. I would say, yeah, very burning man.
It was very like Sam. I think I can't remember
talking to about this, but it's like it's like a
it used to be an actual convent, that's what it's
called the convent, and then they've made it into this
like how many people live there, like twenty five maybe.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
There were like twenty three people who lived there. It's
shut down now, unfortunately a few years ago. Yeah, I
think the landlord wanted to do something else with the building,
tear it down and you know, replace it with whatever
new luxury condos or whatever. And that'll happen eventually, I
don't know when, but as it is now, it still stands.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
But it's boarded up.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Oh god.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
But you know, it was like this kind of really
interesting place where you know, it wasn't that cheap till there,
but it was cheap compared to other housing in San Francisco,
and there was a really neat creative community associated with it.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
But what I remember it was also like, because this
was like sort of mid gentrification, it was like half
people who were true hippie, dippy back to the Earth type,
so then half people who truly worked as software engineers
at Google but like wanted a cool housing environment.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yeah, San Francisco actually having hippie is like, I know
that really did happen, but I only know what the
San Francisco of today is. So it's really hard for
me to imagine it being any form of krusty in
a real way.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
It's really like it's in fact, one of the one
of my great interests is the culture of the Bay Area.

Speaker 4 (13:40):
It has changed so much, and even in the past,
like I mean from basically from twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen, it was kind of like the last of
the old San Francisco. Like I just saw the artists
started getting you know, not started but continue to be
priced out and stuff. And then you know, everybody who
still lived there was replaced by like a super highly

(14:02):
paid tech bro. Yeah, and then the pandemic happened, and
then downtown San Francisco, all the commercial real estate was
basically abandoned because everyone started working from home and they
keep trying to get people to like come back into
the office, but.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
They don't want to.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
And these tech guys have a ton of leverage because
you know, like it's just it's it's a sphere where
employees have a lot more power because like the high
scale level of what they're doing and the you know,
and so anyways, then you know, there was kind of
this like panic about downtown San Francisco, and you know crime,

(14:42):
most of which was shoplifting small amounts of stuff, nothing
really a big deal or whatever, but you know, there's
just a lot of homelessness there, especially from you know.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
That like that process of just all these people getting
kicked out.

Speaker 4 (14:57):
So what happened is like the all these like tech billionaires,
they all started all these like weird organizations like nonprofits,
which are basically just a vehicle for lobbying for their
political agenda. But they all have like maybe thirty organic members,
and they've succeeded in like taking over the city politics

(15:20):
for the most part, and even like you know, the
local like Democratic Party, and you know, got an extremely
corporate mayor in there, got like you know, a bunch
of just tech complete you know, like I don't even
know what the word is, but like the people people
in office who were just going to do exactly what

(15:40):
tech wants, like based on this like kind of pro
police platform.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
And it's like very strange.

Speaker 4 (15:45):
There now because there still is some of the kind
of old school lefty artist thing, but it's pretty minimal
and it's like kind of like the sort of cutting
edge of like fascism marketed to brawls, where it's like it.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Really is sort of a microcosm of larger issues facing
the rest of the country, and it's almost like you're
sort of like, oh, this is a preview of maybe
what's to come more broadly or something, which I already
felt when I lived there, because when we live there,
tech was taking over, and then the tech industry took
over like every other industry. So now it's like, well,
entertainment is tech, like every other industry is being eaten

(16:25):
up by tech, so then the tech logics like invade everything.
I don't know. But it's also the other thing with
b Area culture is like this is there's this rich
history of like booms and busts dating back to like
the Gold Rush, and it's sort of like this weird
thing where there's just like massive amounts of wealth. But
then there's like the dot com crash, and then it
happens again and there's masive amounts of wealth, and it's

(16:47):
somehow it always this like thirst for large amounts of money,
and this like kind of techno libertarianism always coexists with
this like free love hippie ethos.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
It's very interesting because a lot of these guys, I
know you already did like an.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
Episode on polyamory.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
I think that the kind of way that it plays
out in the Bay Area is a little bit unique
because you have all these like tech bro nerds who
you know, are always trying to optimize everything and hack everything,
combined with like the old school sort of sex positive,
clear positive culture of the Bay Area, and so you

(17:28):
get like these just weirdo in cell libertarians, but like
they're making spreadsheets about you know, all of their partners
and giving like numerical ratings to like who gives the
best head and who's the most fun to hang out with.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
And also that relates back to like things starting there
and then reaching the rest of the country. Like I
do feel like that was a thing when like you
lived in the convent and when people we knew were
doing polyamory in San Francisco, and now it's everywhere.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
I was thinking, like, you know who, I feel like
most embodies there's mentality that I feel like regular people
probably know about. Yeah, maybe not regular people, but online people.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
You know that woman what's.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
Her name, like Ella or Aya or whatever, But she
kind of blew up online because she like made a
list of like all the things that she had done
in a given year, and.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
It was like this amount of times.

Speaker 4 (18:22):
Yeah, it was like the amount of times that she
had had sex was like three hundred, oh and the
amount of times that she had showered was like one hundred.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
And I love it.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
So people were like, but she's also really hot. She's
like a sex worker, but she's also like a.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
Libertarian, you know, and just very kind of adjacent to
this like Silicon Valley tech world.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, I want to say shout out to the tech industry. Congratulations,
you guys really nailed it. You did it. And I
also want to ask you guys a question. If you
were in the tech Polycule, what would your rankings be?

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Go, oh, the two of us? Yeah, oh god, I
mean that's a good question.

Speaker 5 (19:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Would you be in sort of the good personality or
the gives blow jobs? You know?

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh like well, oh, not ranking, Like what will my
role be?

Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (19:18):
What is your role? It's sort of D and D
almost yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I mean, you know, I hate to say it, but
I could see myself suddenly becoming you know, not realizing it,
but suddenly waking up one day and becoming the one
the cooks.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Oh god, I would definitely be like the one that
you don't want to talk to on any weekday. Like
I feel like they would be written in the Excel
spreadsheet and it would be like only for Thursday through Sunday.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Also, I think sometimes people think I'm, you know, with
a naked eye. People think I'm very organized because I
sort of have a very condescending tone of voice. Correct,
But I think and so people I think because everyone
else would be so free, love and hippy dippy. They
would be like, oh, you organize the group trip, and

(20:03):
then I would completely fuck up organizing the grip trip.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Now, it's actually one of your most charming qualities is
that when that you like, you even kind of like
the idea that people think of you as organized, but
it actually comes to organizing, it's always like, you can
do it, but it's stressful.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
I can do it, though, can you give me that?

Speaker 2 (20:20):
I like, you always pull it off, but it's like,
at the.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
End of the day, I do pull it off, but
and I'm getting better about not complaining every step of
the way. But yes, I do think unfortunately I would
I would be organizing the group camping trips. Wow, Okay,
let's do our first segment because then I really want
to get into the topic.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, that's a great idea. Okay. Our first segment is
called straight Shooters, and in the segment, we're going to
ask you a series of rapid fire questions, especially this
thing or this other thing, to gauge your familiarity with
and complicity and straight culture.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
The only rule is you can't ask any follow up
questions or we will scream at you so loud that
the Internet will freeze.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yes, and it's not gonna make any sense and you
just have to embrace that. And that's okay.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
And I just say if I know what I okay.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
All right, Sam, I'm gonna take it away.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Okay, something Mackavellian or something Jack Skellington.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Mackavellian, Okay. The wheels on the bus go round and
round or appeals to Liz Trust are gaining ground.

Speaker 5 (21:29):
Uh, appeals to Liz Trust, the Kid's Choice Awards or
the twenty twenty four presidential election.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
Twenty twenty four presidential.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Election, Adult literacy or insult comedy.

Speaker 5 (21:42):
Insult comedy, lust for life or thirst for sprite, lust
for life, falling out of a coconut tree, or Ballin'
out to the nth degree Ballin' out.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Okay, all the world's a stage, or thanks all for
coming to my page.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
Thanks all for coming to my pig.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
Okay, getting rave reviews in the press, or seeing the
brave Tom Cruise jump without a vest.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
Oh Tom Cruise, Wow.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
I mean talk about to tech Bro. That was efficiency culture.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
That was efficiency at play. I think you know, I
think Kay immediately heard us say if you ask any
followup questions, you will be sentenced to death. And immediately
I saw she she got in line and she was
a nice little Amazon worker. I'm a sheep, you're a sheep.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
We really need oh you need is two gay guys
to tell you, hey, listen up.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yeah, we taught me platonically.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
We really stifled your sense of play, and for that,
I apologize.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
Oh god, okay, I'm not gonna I'm not going to
derail this into a tangent, but I do have to
say about the tech.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Bro thing that we were talking about. They all call
sex play.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yes, no, it's actually one of them discussed. One of
the most disgusting phrase turns of phrase I can think
of is calling sex play and also being like, do
you play play?

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Play partner?

Speaker 4 (23:00):
I find you know, I mean, okay, look, if you're
doing like BDSM and you're like a kink person, I
get it. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to
malign those interests or anything like that. But if you're
just regular vanilla fucking yeah totally, and you call it
play like.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
You're barely playing, you should be killed. Like it's actually
not play. You're basically working in nine to five like
you're doing missionary.

Speaker 4 (23:25):
It's fucking or it's having sex, and those are the
only two legitimate options.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Do you remember like as a kid hearing in movies
hearing someone being like, are we gonna fuck? And being like,
oh my god, they're using the effort to mean sex.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
I remember as a kid hearing like watching like sitcoms
and then being like, you know, talking about someone being
good in bed, and I was like, how is that possible?
Like the idea of someone being better at sex than
someone else really did not make any sense to me.
And now as an adult, I'm like, no, one hundred percent,
I'm the tech bro. I'm ranking everyone. I have a
full Excel spreadsheet.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
It's when my parents when I learned about sex. When
I was in elementary school, I asked my parents what
it was and they said it was.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
A special cuddle.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
So I probably thought until I was about eleven or
twelve that everybody was just loved to cuddle.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
WOA so much.

Speaker 4 (24:17):
Yeah, naked though, I was like picturing, just like I
didn't know about the penetrative aspect of heterosexual intercourse.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
I'm very old. I knew about the fact that the
sperm needs to go in, but I did not know
there was penetration, so I thought I thought it was
sort of like, Okay, let's get it in there, necessary, folks,
we got to get it in there. It just had

(24:47):
never occurred to it, like, because I also thought the
cuddling part was cuddling, and I was just like, oh,
it's like getting everyone in the mood.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
I feel like I learned pretty early on. I feel
like boys on the bus were sort of, you know
of like fingers, Oh, I think I'm getting what's going
on here.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Right, But I even that I thought was like an
exaggeration in the way that you would like any kind
of hand gesture is inherently exaggerating something. So I was like, oh,
that's like you're just making the shape of a vagiant
in the shape of a penis. Doesn't necessarily mean that's
literally what's going on, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Interesting? So you're like, I'll do my own research. You
were like, I see, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
I was like, I don't think you guys get it, Okay, okay,
I would love to know what your straight topic is
and maybe a few words on what you think is
straight about it, Although honestly it's pretty self explanatory and
you're gonna have to do a lot of teaching us
today and I can't wait.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Well, okay, so my topic is like in cell culture.

Speaker 4 (25:43):
Okay, but you know I'm not I just want to
say I'm not an expert on it.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
I've just I've just paid attention to it.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
I think it's something that fascinates you, because I feel
like I've talked to you about it before, Like I
think you correct me if I'm wrong. I would say
you're someone who like is fascinated by dark corners of
the Internet.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (26:03):
I mean I think that, like, well, particularly with this
in cell culture, I'm amazed at.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
The degree to which it has like made its way.

Speaker 4 (26:13):
Into like the normal, totally yeah, straight person way of
talking about things like given the whole idea of a
body count, like that's an in cell idea, and now
gen Z they're just like throwing it around, you know,
like people have, you know, like this idea of you know,
like a person's.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Like sexual market value or whatever.

Speaker 4 (26:37):
Like sometimes I'll just see people who we are not
even in cells say that and stuff, and I'm like,
this was like a Reddit idea from like twenty thirteen,
twenty fourteen.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, so gross.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
And you know, the saddest thing to me is seeing
like women kind of adopt these internalized these ideas to
some extent, you know, and like think about like, you know,
the regular straight guys or are really going to give
a shit about something like a body count or whatever,
because it's just like none of this stuff applies to

(27:09):
a guy who's even like a remotely functional partner.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
So is the body count thing that men want women
to be virginal so they want their BodyCount to be
low or is it more about like men want to
be virile and want their own BodyCount to be high.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
I think it's both, but I've noticed more emphasis on
that you want a woman with a low body count.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Like there's all these.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
Men who have a very hard time getting lad you know,
they don't they don't get to play wow, and so
like yeah, I know. But so then then they like
extra fetishize it where they're like, oh, actually it's bad
to have sex a lot, like you don't want a
woman that's done that, like you can.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Just Be's like when I didn't get on a UCB team,
I was like, wait u seeb sucks and whoever's on
there is bad.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
Yeah, I mean it's like they think they like they
both like.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Want to have sex so bad, and they think that
like if a woman has sex too much that she
is like ruined.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
And I'm like, okay, Like if you're a guy who.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Is an in cell and you really want to get laid,
like what's your what's your best bet? It probably is
going to be to slightly improve your social skills and
make friends with slutty people who are kind of sex
positive and kind of get over that hump or whatever.
But you know, they adopt these like reactionary values. It

(28:35):
almost sounds like it's almost kind of Christian, but it's secular, you.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
Know, sound.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah it is, it is.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
I mean in a way, it's not really like it's
not news. These aren't like new ideas, like humanity has
been sex shaming women since Adam and Eve, you know.
But I think that these these ideas kind of like
making making its way sort of back into society, like

(29:02):
in like a mainstream way after kind of like the
millennial like you know, sex positivity, which which is its
own can of worms. You know.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
But but I do think you're I think the sex
positivity I think so much of the conservative reactionary stuff
in the culture wars is like a reaction to like
sex positivity, body positivity, and like LGBT inclusion. Basically, like
it's like people suddenly during the Obama years, it all

(29:32):
too many companies posted about pride, yes, and then people
really needed to react against that.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
Well, I mean we were talking about San Francisco earlier,
and the funny thing about San Francisco, like it's the
city where extreme people became gay, yes, and like it
originally like that that's how so much of like these
ideas around sex positivity originated, even like these you know

(30:00):
kind of old school you know, sex positive writers, like
I'm thinking about like anti sprinkle and stuff, and these
like these you know women and queer people in the
nineties and early two thousands that were you know, kind
of exploring you know, like making kink or having a
lot of sexual partners more of like a mainstream idea,

(30:24):
and like a lot of the kind of stray people
in San Francisco have really adopted that, Like they have
this you know, like like sorry to be vulgar, but
I feel like it's probably a safe space on these podcasts,
like men in San Francisco will be like eat my
asshole like straight men. And I'm like, don't you realize
the only reason that this is possible for you is

(30:44):
because of the gay men who came before you. You
should be waving the pride flag every day, you know,
just because it's like you you get to do this,
like you get to be a straight guy that has
a fun, adventurous, you know, maybe even non monogamous sex
life because you live in a city where queer people
pioneered this stuff, you know, and it's just like, you know,

(31:08):
it all kind of came out of the Bay Area,
and I lived in the Bay Area, like, you know,
in the early two thousands. I was in college and
stuff like that, so I was like kind of right,
you know, right on the forefront of like the millennial
sex positive crusade or whatever. And I mean, I definitely,
you know, I definitely remember like being in college and

(31:29):
after college kind of feeling like, okay, like this idea
that I'm supposed to have sex as much as possible,
which isn't really what sex positivity is, but like, I
think a lot of people kind of felt that pressure,
you know, and I was just like, wait, I'm not
supposed to expect anything, you know, and I like it
didn't it wasn't always great, but it was a big

(31:51):
break with the kind of like conservative values I grew
up with. And I understand why there's a backlash to it.
Like I get why people are like, no, I want
to have meaningful relationships with someone who's committed.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
To me forever. Like I understand that emotional impulse.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
Yeah, but I think like the way that it's kind
of metastasized into a backlash.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
Like both in the culture at large and specifically in.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
These kind of like you know inzell corners of the Internet,
where you know, like these are the men who very
much like couldn't maybe they would love to live that
sex positive lifestyle, but nobody's interested in having sex with them,
and so they're like extremely angry about it. Whereas like maybe,
you know, if you went like fifty years back, like

(32:41):
those guys would have just had a wife, you know,
like they just would have like met a lady that
they got along with, and they're like, oh yeah, like
let's both be like kind of works together and like
have our friends over for board games.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
And it's like that's actually like the lifestyle that a lot.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
Of people are more suited for But I think as
there became you know, sort of like an increased.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Pressure to like fuck a lot, and then.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
It became like a sort of like, uh, I don't
want to say, like a status symbol, but almost you
know where like having a lot of sexual partners became
something that is like bragworthy instead of something that was like,
you know, reflective of being a bad d.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, well, do you think queer people really pioneered that
as well?

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Queer people pioneered that. I think sex societal expectations of
sex are interesting because at any given time, depending on
what your immediate community is, everyone feels a certain level
of shame for either not having enough sex or having
too much sex. And it's like, actually, the real sex
positivity is not about having as much sex as possible.
It's about actually feeling comfortable with the level of the

(33:46):
level with which you express for sexuality and not trying
to conform because so often, because I've been in both
of them, I've been in like I wouldn't ta conservative environments,
but I've been in sort of like more traditional environments,
and I've been in like very very promiscuous queer environments,
and in both cases, everyone's unhappy.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
I know, I'm trying to live the status. Thing ever,
is a queer vacation, like a gay vacation, and it's
like like day one, you're like, okay, everyone's having fun.
Like day three, if people haven't like had a sexual
experience yet, like there's panic, panic starts to come into
play because it's like your entire self worth is like, well,
I want to make I'm on a gay vacation. How

(34:22):
am I not going to have something happened to me?

Speaker 4 (34:25):
You know? I think there's a like this this kind
of like male in cell thing. Obviously that's the main one,
but there is even like a lady in cell version
that kind of developed.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
There was a sub Brennett called.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
The Female Dating Strategy, which I think eventually got shut
down for being a hate supper. And this place was
fucking insane, so like, you know, it was like these
women that were like we're reclaiming our standards and like
we're pushing back against this like sex positivity.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
And it was obviously a lot.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
Of women, you know, very very very strange, incredibly straight place,
like no one query in there.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
But were they trying to be dom women?

Speaker 3 (35:05):
No, Oh, they were trying they were trying to is.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
It like more like tradwife stuff.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
Not even tradwave.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
So the main things they were really against is like
men watching porn, men uh, kind of not doing chivalry anymore.
Like it was a big thing on this like if
if you go on you know, this many dates and
he doesn't pay for the whole bill, like you're done
with him forever. But then it also got like really psycho,
like I mean not that that isn't psycho, but you know,

(35:33):
like there was this one lady that was like, you know,
I went on a date with this man and you know,
he briefly mentioned that someone that he knew recently died
and he was still feeling sad about it, and like
this isn't a fucking therapy session, and you know, like
everybody was voting it and stuff, and it became this
like I don't know, like it was like kind of
it was in cell like but for women where they

(35:57):
were also I think having a very hard time, and
the kind of like you know increased like sex positive zone,
and you know, I ended up I think adopting like
a good bit of like the men the men's rights rhetoric,
you know, like this there's this like idea and kind
of the manosphere that there's like low value women and

(36:18):
high value women and they would be like low value
men and high value men just like all this shit
like this kind of like imagining of human relationships that
is not what people think if you've had relationships, Like
if you've had a relationship, like you know, like it's
like you meet somebody, you get along with them, and

(36:38):
then you kind of see where it goes, and you
know what I mean. Look, it's not I'm not saying
it's super easy for everyone. Like I've gotten way better
at communicating, you know, what it is that I you know,
I'm looking for and what my boundaries are as I've
grown older. But you know, I think like instead of
developing those healthy communication skills for like expressing interest in

(37:00):
somebody or expressing like oh hey, I'm you know, I'm
actually you know, gonna wait a while to have sex.
That takes me a while to feel comfortable with someone,
but I am attracted to, you know. Like it's like
they make all these the common thread is like they
make all these like rules for how it's supposed to
go that have like literally nothing to do with real

(37:21):
human interaction.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Do intel men and in some women get along, like
are do they do their values align? Like if the
incredible question, like if they meet up, are they like, Wow,
we get each other like it's like magical, or are
they like no, I think completely differently.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
I think it's the opposite. Like I think that.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
They've both devalued like these like in cell type women
and these in cel type men have both devalued.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
Like I don't want to say the other the other gender,
because there's many genders, but in their in their world,
in the world of this, there's only.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
Two genders, you know, but like they've both devalued the
other like so greatly, and they've made it into this
like Okay, here's this like whole other kind of person
that thinks man thoughts or thinks woman thoughts, and I
can never understand them. And they're a serious being, and
I certainly can never ask them how they feel or

(38:12):
what would make them more comfortable.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
You know.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
It's just like there's all this kind of like psychoanalyzing
of like these are the tricks that work on them.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
I would say, I'm trying to think, like to sort
of put it in the framework of straight culture. I
feel like, you know, spitballing here. But the elements of
this are like, first of all, a fundamental defensiveness, like
everything is a reaction to something. Second of all, this
obsession with categorization and quantification like that, I think is
something that keeps coming up with a lot of our topics,

(38:42):
with a lot of like straight coded ideologies. And also
I don't want to stigmatize online communities because there are
many that are very gay and very queer and whatever.
But I do think a big part of it is
also when you are doing most of your socializing and
most of your interacting with people not in meat space,

(39:04):
you start getting warped ideas of just like how normal,
how a conversation and how interaction should work.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:11):
Yeah, there's a lot of like like I've seen in
you know, these like in cell type of dudes you know,
talk about like there's this like common thread that like
women like it if you're like slightly mean to them,
like obviously you probably that the idea of like nagging
has very much made its way into popular culture.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
So nagging is from like fully from in cell culture.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
In the manosphere, so nagging is from a shake up artists, Yes,
it's it's a pickup artist idea. And I don't know
exactly when it emerged, but I'm going to put it
like somewhere within a couple of years of twenty ten
on either side. I don't know exactly, but you know
this idea that like, you know, you insulted women a

(39:55):
little bit, and you make her desperate and for your
approval and then she fucks you, and like, you know,
it's these like pickup artist idios.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
It's pickup artists.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
Isn't the same as in cells, Like the pickupartists are
actually into having a lot of sex, but like a
lot of the in cells have like adopted this pickup
artist ideology, like they think that that is how it
works and really yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
And the Rules of the Game, which is sort of
a classic pickup artist text, came out in twosand and seven, so.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of like I feel
like there is an idea with like a lot of
these men that what women are super into is you know,
if you're a little mean to them. And it's like, yeah,
maybe for like women who are highly traumatized that have

(40:43):
not worked through their trauma and like learned, you know,
I mean, but it's like I don't think that it's
a this idea that like women love assholes.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, so prevalent.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
There's also something okay, and this is related to the defensiveness,
but there's a sort of general conspiratory thinking. It's like
you always have to do the thing you think is
the opposite to get the thing that you actually want.
Like you have to say something mean and then they'll
like you, or you'll have to like stop speaking and
then they'll be impressed with your silence. I mean, I
just made that up. But it's like there's always like

(41:17):
it's like women and relationships are these like black boxes
and you have to master them by doing really intricate
you know, by playing three dimensional chess.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
And I think also women, I think like a lot
of women on the internet have gotten into this mentality too.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
They're like, you have to trick a man in order,
like the way that you get.

Speaker 4 (41:40):
A boyfriend or a husband or whatever is you trick
them like you you withhold sex for like a amount
of time. You make them perform various tasks that usually
include paying for things and you know, maybe maybe doing
you know, physical labor of some kind and you're not

(42:00):
honest about you know, your your feelings, like if you
like them a lot, you certainly don't tell them. It's
you know, it's like this kind of like if you
followed like any of these in cell ideas or like
pick up artist ideas or like lady in cell ideas,
like they probably will work from like a certain kind
of person who is like very damaged and like not

(42:23):
somebody who's probably ready to be in a healthy relationship.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
I think this is like I'm kind of I feel
like I'm seeing it all. I'm like scared at how
mainstream all these ideas.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Are now, because yes exactly, I.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Really was like I know what in cells are, and
I'm like aware that this is like happening on these
weird dark corners of the Internet. But I also I
haven't been paying attention to like how these things have
become like little dating jokes, like like even the thing
about like I need a man who's six too, or
like the like the man has to pay for dinner.
There's all these weird things, but like I thought we

(42:59):
had like moved on from and now they feel so
back and like back in with like a wink, like
everyone's like, oh, it's playful. It's playful, and it's like,
I don't know if it is playful.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
And I think the biggest I mean, okay, like to
take it back. I think a big part of this
is this resurgence of which we've talked about before, half
joking about the differences between men and women.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, gender has never been more back.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Yeah, like it's just like girl dinner boy logic. And
I understand that all of these are with a wink
and everyone's half joking. But then when you start to
like listen to what people are saying, are like, are
you actually joking? And I think this I think a
big part of in cell culture, whether it's man in
cell culture, women in cell culture, and a big part
of the sort of like conspiratorial thinking that I was

(43:43):
talking about and how to unlock something that's unfamiliar to you.
A big part of it is simply this very straight
idea of like men are from Mars, women are from Venus.
Like it's really like it all goes back to just
like men and women are fundamentally different and definitely and
like they will never be able to actually fully communicate

(44:04):
with one another, so you have to invent these weird
heuristics to like bridge the gap.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Yeah, it's very strange.

Speaker 4 (44:09):
But you know, I think one thing that kind of
complicates it is that there's always a there's like a
little grain of truth in like some of the things
that they say.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
And I don't think that.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
It's inherent or like biological, but I'll give you like
a concrete example of what I mean. Okay, like when
I you know, I've been on a lot of dates
with straight man a lot like in a relationship now,
but I probably dated literally what probably went on like
a hundred or maybe even over one hundred first dates,
like in the process of like meeting somebody that I

(44:42):
wanted to you know, spend all my time with.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
But I noticed that there's a huge correlation.

Speaker 4 (44:49):
Between men who do not offer to pay on a
first date and men who are otherwise rude. And so
for myself, I definitely if a guy didn't offer to pay,
would like downgrade him in my mind. And that wasn't
because I feel like there is any inherent moral value
to a guy paying, or even because I'm interested in

(45:09):
having an incredibly heteronormative relationship. It's just that that's enough
of a social convention still totally that men who disregard
it are highly correlated with not being polite in other ways.
And I'm like, Okay, I wish it wasn't like that,
But every single time I've been out with a guy

(45:30):
who didn't at least it, like a lot of times
I'll be like, oh no, let's split it or whatever,
you know, But like the guy who like never made
the offer, like he's just an impolite person who was
otherwise badly behaved. And it's like, I think, I think
navigating this stuff with like a level of you know,
I mean, it's it takes like a bit of sort
of reflection and sophistication to be like okay, you.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Know, and to take everything to account.

Speaker 4 (45:55):
Like, you know, it's one thing if a guy's like
between jobs or something and they're like, okay, he's that
you know, we're going off for ice cream or we're
just gonna pay for ourselves because he's broke his hell,
that's different, right, Like that's a completely different situation. But
you know, like I think that like straight men who
kind of completely disregard like all aspects of chivalry, at

(46:16):
least in this moment in time where that stuff hasn't
fully made its way out.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
It's like.

Speaker 4 (46:23):
There they might end up just being an otherwise inconsiderate person.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
That's a really good point.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
That's it really is so challenging. Like yeah, I mean
I think this is like incredibly I don't even know
what all right, I'll just say what I was about
to say, Like to imagine seeing let's say a straight
couple on a date and the man is dressed to
the nines, like designer head to toe Gucci loafers, and

(46:50):
the woman is like sort of schlubby like imagine like
you know, because the stereotype is like the man could
be wearing like a flannel and ripped jeans and flip
flops and the woman in is in like a mini
dress and full makeup. Yeah, like is it like is
it like weird or something? If it's the other way around.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (47:12):
Like I don't know, Like, yeah, it's very It's it's
a complicated moment because you know, we have parted ways
with like a lot of these kind of antiquated ideas
of gender roles and there's not really like a set
of rules anymore.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
Yeah, they haven't been replaced with anything. It's true, no.

Speaker 4 (47:28):
And I think that these like I think that these
online spaces, whether it's like in cell dudes or like
you know, in cell women or whatever, like they're desperately
looking for a set of rules, yes, to replace whatever
came before, or maybe even to go back to the
previous set of rules. And it's like it's I mean,

(47:49):
I empathize, it's very hard not to have a set
of rules, like especially when we haven't made it all
the way to a point, you know where like you
can expect your average straight guy to be emotionally intelligent,
Like I think that'll be the thing that finally like
frees us from this is like when straight men learn
to communicate and everyone.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Gets the point like, oh okay, like we're just two people.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
And if we want something we could say, you know,
but we're not there yet, And so I understand.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Why people want to.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
Kind of fall back on like if he does this,
that means this, you know, or if she does this,
that means this. And I can assess if somebody is
like meeting the criteria of you know, being a good person.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
I mean it's like and you know, it can be
really and.

Speaker 4 (48:36):
Like when you meet somebody that it really works with
like when it's kind of it almost always is a
situation when we're like the rules have gone out the window.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
Like my when I met my boyfriend.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
I had a great conversation with him in like a
it's kind of like a cafe that our mutual friend
works at. We had an awesome conversation and it was
really you know, it was like we talked for like
an hour and it was like, Holy moly, I have
so much in common with this person. And then he
didn't text me after and it came, you know, it

(49:11):
was like three days, four days, and I was like
waiting for him to text me because I'm like, okay, well,
the information is that if a guy likes you, he
will text you, and that's usually true. But I decided
we had a good enough conversation that I like broke
down and texted him and was like, hey, you know,
I had fun talking to you other night. You want
to meet up, you know? And I then we met up,

(49:35):
and I was like, he must not be very interested.
But he turns out he he's like a very academic
brained kind of person.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
He felt like to talk to me more.

Speaker 4 (49:46):
He needed to like go through and listen to like
the back episodes of my podcast. He gave himself homework,
which would be very strange if it was like any
other person. But he just has such a dorky, like
endearingly academic personality that I'm like, of course, that's how
you would approach a relationship. And I'm like, one day
I asked him, I was like, would you have texted me?

(50:07):
He's like, oh, yeah, you know, I just I didn't
want to come off too eager, so I thought I'd
wait a couple of weeks.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
I'm like, a couple weeks, what the hell?

Speaker 4 (50:15):
You know?

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Like what planet are you from?

Speaker 4 (50:18):
And you know, it's like these I think when people
are like, oh yeah, you wait three days to text her,
or you have sex with him on the fourth date,
and you have this assumption that everyone else is operating
with that same information, right right, right, It's comforting except
for the fact that nobody else is operating with that
same information that they were on your weird online community.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
I mean the whole like if you text you back,
blah blah. That also points to like such a big
part of this cultural history, which is like women's magazine Total,
you know, Cosmo, and like Women's magazine quizzes and like
fifteen ways to you know, to know he's cheating, or
fifteen ways to driving wild and blah bah blah.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Yeah, I find myself. It's also funny that when you
learn that stuff when you're like thirteen, it is really
hard to not think of it as fact. Like I
one time read like some literally like Cosmo thing that
was like, oh, I'm not even supposed to be reading this.
This is for girls, and I read it and it
was like touch his leg and if he touches yours,

(51:22):
like that means he's into you. And like, now twenty
years later, I like touch someone and they don't touch
me back. I'm like, Okay, they hate me, they don't
want to have sex with me. And it's like, but
that's not always the case. It's just like I made
this rule and it's like I'm doing I'm giving them
a test, which doesn't make any sense because I didn't
know that I'm giving them a test.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Something truly that like the true like peak of the
insanity of straight culture is the fact that during this
time of like you know, let's say nineties early odds,
Maxim and Cosmo were right next to each other at
the magazine stamp. Anyone could read both, and yet each
of them was giving conradictory advice to each gender, to

(52:03):
each you know, alleged gender. It is really truly, it's
like I can't even believe it. Like it's just men
are just like reading something that's like if she does this,
do this, and women are reading the exact opposite, and
they're going on dates and they're being like he was
being weird, she was being annoying.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
It's like why did.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
She just I mean, but it's like, okay, like you know,
I just don't have a naturally flirty demeanor at all.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
I'm a super cerebral person.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
And so there was a time like I was in
monogamous relationships basically until I was like twenty nine, twenty
eight or whatever, and then then started dating without a
lot of experienced dating, and I was going on all
of these dates and it would just like never turn
into like a second date. And I was like, I
feel like I don't know. I was talking to a
friend who is you know, she's very charismatic and she's

(52:50):
very good at this stuff, and she's she's like, maybe
they can't tell if you're into them or if you're
attracted to them, And I was like, well, what am
I supposed to do? And she's like, just look at
them in their eye and say, you look really cute.
And so I was like, okay, I'll try that. And
then all of a sudden, like one hundred percent of
my first dads turned into like second dates. Like I

(53:11):
just like them to have this like formulaic yeah, to
just have this like formulaic way of like okay, like
I can express some interest or attraction to this person
in a way that like so that that like freed
me and I don't like I don't have to do
that anymore, but just like I needed like some like
very concrete advice for like how to get over the
hump of my social awkwardness.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
And I think that some of these some of this.

Speaker 4 (53:35):
Stuff online is very much like about that. Like at
a friend who was really into the pickup artist stuff
in the like maybe twenty twelve. He was a comedian,
he's a nice guy, and I was like, why are
you into the pickup artist stuff, Like it just doesn't
seem like something.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
He's like, well, it's you know, has a bad reputation.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
But I've actually gotten a lot of advice to really
you know, helps me.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
And he explains what he does.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
He's like, I go up to women, I start talking
to them, and then I say these things, and I'm
like thinking in my head, like, Okay, the part that
works about what you're doing is the part where you
start talking to women like that is actually that has
been the main ingredient in your success. It's that you
started conversations with people, whereas before you did not at all.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
And if a goal is to ultimately sleep with them,
maybe you are trying to I don't know the details,
but maybe you're trying to be extra nice, or maybe
you're trying to smile more, and these those things just
are objectively nice things to do.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
Yeah, and it's it's like dating favors people that are
you know.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
Physically attractive, of course, but you know, like there's also
this element of like social intelligence, emotional intelligence that really
helps so much. Like if you know, the times in
my life where I've like connected with a you know,
a straight man or or even a bisexual man who
was interested in me, like there is this kind of
fine balance where they're conveying interest but it's not creepy. Yeah,

(54:54):
and that's something that like I don't even know how
I would explain to.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
A how to do that.

Speaker 4 (55:01):
It's just like they're very good at like tuning into
me and like conveying just enough that I'm certain that
they are interested, but I'm not weirded out and it
doesn't feel desperate, And it's like, I think that's a
lot of the people who do get into this, like
in cell mantosphere, you know, online dating advice stuff, like,
they just don't have that skill, and I very much

(55:23):
relate to it because I'm it took me so long.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
To figure out totally how to have that skill totally.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
It's almost like, because these things have moved from the
magazines into like weird online corners, they just got weirder.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Because it's because at least magazines had editors exactly, because
it's the same things we've been dealing with always.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
It's just now it's unedited and it's.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
Like and it's more resentful.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yeah, and it can be racist, and it can be
like just like way more misogynist than a really explicit
way or and it's not seen by Again, if the
magazine is not in the magazine sent the supermarket, no
one's gonna complain about it. I'm not going to go
actively into the manosphere and be like, you, guys, this
is problematic. I'm calling the police, I'm suing you. Yeah,

(56:10):
I really I think that your point about creepiness is
so important but also so fraud because I think one
of the ways in which I really empathize with straight
men is there is always this specter of quote unquote creepiness,
and it's actually such a difficult thing to navigate because
I think often it is assigned as a quality to

(56:31):
basically just like being a straight man. Here's something about it,
a straight man just walking around where you're like, what
the hell is he up to?

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Oh yeah, no, one hundred percent. I had this boyfriend
that who shall not be named, but George won't know
who it is.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Yes, he was really.

Speaker 4 (56:47):
Resentful that like the kind of like you know, sex
positive brand idea was like really dominated by women, and
that like nobody wants to hear from a sex positive
man about his play because it grosses everyone out.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
He felt like insulted by that.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
But I'm just like, yeah, you're right, no one wants
to hear that, Like it's gross as hell. Nobody wants
to know what like a just a random guy, like
how he fucks? Like that's private information, and yes, you're right,
people do want to know that about like a very
attractive woman.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Sure, it's also just.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
I mean what's tough is like the messages that men,
you know, the whole thing is like straight men have
taken up too much space. So now the responsible thing
to do is to sort of make yourself a little smaller,
give other people a chance to speak. But then at
the same time, the way if you're dating, the way
you put yourself out there is by like speaking and

(57:47):
trying to show that you are worthy and that you
are interesting and that you're smart. So they're caught in
this like bind where on the one hand, they're trying
to like make space.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
You know.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Again, this is like some people don't even think about this,
and that's you know, its own thing. But the people
that are trying to be socially conscious, it's like, on
the one hand, they're trying to make space and not
you know, proverbially manspread. But on the other hand they're like, well,
if I don't do anything, then how will people know
I'm interesting and smart?

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (58:11):
No, it's one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
And it's like I you know, I really I think
that like that was something really a challenge for me
and has been for some of my friends, or like
the guys that we've gone out with, like the straight
guys like are more of a sort of like feminist
conscientious you know, politically like leftist or liberal type, and
they in their minds like especially since like me too,

(58:34):
you know, it's like this new thing to account for
and this like subconscious rules of like okay, he's trying
not to be creepy. And so there were a few
instances where I think I went out with someone either
one or two times and they didn't you know, make
any sort of like flirtatious moves or physical overtures. And

(58:55):
then I realized, like, oh, like now like I'm going
to have to do it or at least let him
know that it's invited, you know, because it's not like
it's not this time anymore. We're like a conscientious guy
is just going to maybe be like super sexually forward
if he's not sure that you are totally one hundred

(59:17):
percent welcoming that, you know. And it's just I think
it just takes so much like I mean, you know,
the answer to all of this is like direct communication,
but that's so scary and it's so vulnerable, you know.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
It Also, like I have to say, obviously it's great
to have direct communication, but sometimes it doesn't work. And
sometimes people have different communication styles and they both in
fact think they're being direct and honest, but it is
a different kind of direct and honest.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Yeah, totally. Do you ever meet someone who's like this
really self proclaims to be really direct and you're like, no,
you're just like rude and yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Or sometimes you're actually more fake than anyone else, like
you are just doing this performance of and it doesn't
even have to be rude. I think sometimes people are
not in and I'm not saying I'm immune to this,
but like I think some people are not in touch
with what they actually think. So what they think is
honestly is like they're weird warped idea of what is
going on inside their mind.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
Yeah, one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
Or people will say, you know, things like they've worked
with their therapists on how it's direct, and then it
just comes off as like really artless, you know. Like
I I remember, like probably ten years ago, I had
this kind of friends.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
We weren't like great friends.

Speaker 4 (01:00:31):
But we had hung out a few times and we
had sex one day, and he was like, I want
to keep dating you, but I don't want to have
sex anymore for a while.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
And I you know, heard that, and I.

Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Got so defensive, and in my head, I was like,
what did you think the sex was really bad? Or like,
you know, like you're not checked it to me or
I'm ugly or something like that. But at this point,
like if that happened now, you know, like I would
probably just ask a follow up question of like, oh,
like how did you reach that decision, you know, and

(01:01:03):
like try to understand, Like I think in this guy's case,
like he you know, just kind of felt like he
didn't want to put the sex part like before the
emotional part so much like he didn't feel like he
could fuck someone and get to know them at the
same time, you know, And you know, I was just like, well, no,
that's a deal breaker for.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Me, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:23):
And it's just like I think, like with all of
these like the kind of like I want to say,
like the commodification of like direct communication, like you you
kind of get to like this, you know, this point
where like people just sort of sound like psychos because
they're not interested in receiving any feedback from the other
person or paying attention to the other person's reaction.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
It's just like, here is my announcement.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Wait, okay, so this is so important because communication people
think direct communication is like the end rather than the means.
People are like, well, I did my honesty.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
I did.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
I just said an honest statement, so I'm done. It's
like no communication is is someone saying an on a statement,
someone else replying with it on a statement, and then
trying to find common ground.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Yeah, there's like a lack of empathy in the self
proclaimed yah direct communicators.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
So and that's why we're anti therapy on this podcast,
needless to say, I mean nice to say.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
Yeah, because it is like the thing if you like,
I'm not anti therapy, but you know, like if you think.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Of it, we are jokingly. We are jokingly we're sort
of us being anti therapy as like people joking about
girl dinner.

Speaker 4 (01:02:28):
Yeah, I mean no, it is kind of like that
that same guy that was like talking about the sex
positive stuff. He's like, I'm gonna go to therapy, That's
how I'm gonna get better.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
And I'm like thinking in.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
My head, Like the thing that would make you better
is not talking about yourself more, it would be considering others.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Oh my god, I mean that is so that's such
good advice for so many people.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
Yeah, I mean, And it's like, you know, a therapist
is like a relationship where you're literally just talking at
the person. You know, they don't expect anything from you.
It's just a one way street of you just like
spewing out your thoughts maybe the last follow.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
Up questions sometimes.

Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
Or give advice if you really ask for it, you know,
but it's not it's not related to like how one
would communicate in a romantic relationship or even a friendship,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
So it's just like, you know, I think like a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
Of the stuff is like a lot of dating and
romantic relationships, they do come down to exactly what you said,
which is empathy.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
Like that's what helps people be better at it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:26):
Empathy with also balanced with I don't know, a little
sexuality or some kind of intangible thing that makes it hot.
And that's just like I don't think that that's something
that the people who gravitate to these spaces are naturally
good at, and we almost need people who can like
teach that stuff, but it doesn't exist, and so these

(01:03:49):
like hyper toxic spaces develop where it's like people just
making rules without learning that sort of fundamental like, hey,
here's you communicate well but with an energy of flirtation.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Wow, wait, I don't want to necessarily. Is are there
gay in cells?

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Yes, someone was telling you. I don't have any further details,
but I do someone was telling me at some point
that there are. And also, of course there are.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Sure, Sure, of course there are. We can do anything.

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
I feel like there's not as many though, because they
like I feel like you can go on grinder as
a guy and just get laid a lot of the time.

Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
There's probably some people who can't.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
But I think that if all you're looking for is sex,
like the gay end that I know that I've had trouble,
it's more like that they can find only people who
are looking for sex versus like not totally.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Yes, yeah, well I do think there's Yeah, it's funny.
I think the reactionary, I think the equivalent of the
insul in the game male community is the reactionary of
people that are like the gay community is only about
sex and like no, I don't like I don't want
I don't like pop music, and I don't like just
having crazy sex and doing drugs, Like I just want
a family.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Okay, I know what the gay in cell is. Okay,
gay and Cell is guys that are like, no, open guys.
Why are people in open relationships save something for the
rest of us?

Speaker 4 (01:05:15):
Like yeah, but I mean I kind of felt like
that person at some point where I'm just like okay,
like I'm just meeting all of these guys that are
just like, oh, yeah, you want to be my fourth girlfriend?

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Really don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
It actually is a really difficult because I've been you know,
we've all been there, but like the experience of actually
looking for a relationship, whether or not you wanted to
be open, whatever, but you are looking for a partner.
You want that to be part of your life. And
then you're going out there and everyone is like, oh,
happily partnered, like but would love to fuck.

Speaker 4 (01:05:48):
Yeah, And it sounds like when you describe a whole
relationship in this environment, you know, like, I mean, I
just like to to articulate directly, like why what an
actual kind of like relationship? I don't want to say actual,
but you know, like either a monogamous relationship or a
very primary relationship. If you were like, Okay, well what

(01:06:10):
I want is to have the kind of relationship or
if I told you that I was having a big problem,
that you would drop everything, but I won't abuse that
perfect you know. And it's like that sounds that I
that you would you know largely, uh, that you would
hang out with me, like you know, four times a

(01:06:30):
week or something like it just it all sounds like
psycho if you like put if you if you really
begin to describe it. And so I think that a
lot of these like people that get really bitter on
the internet like that they're they're reacting to this sense
of like I know that like what society is talking
me into feels like too little for me, but I'm

(01:06:52):
not brave enough to ask for the thing that I
actually want or have no way to get it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
And on that note, we reach your do our final segment, Kate,
I got this has actually been such a refreshing episode
because I'm like, we really are talking about straight culture.

Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
We really are, and I feel like as a bisexual,
but I am, you know, I got a lot of
I engage deeply in the straight culture, but also with
an anthropologist.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
I yeah, you're talking about it, you really are. I
haven't really given much thought to this type of culture,
and I feel illuminated. Kate.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Before we do our last segment, let's maybe take this
chance to promote anything you want to talk about. Smart, okay, crazy,
We might forget otherwise.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
So I have a new comedy special on Amazon and
Apple TV.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
It's called Loopholes.

Speaker 4 (01:07:44):
I have a lot of dating jokes on there, and
I think one thing that would be of interest to
your listeners will say, have an audiobook called Audible called
Dirtbag Anthropology where I wrote about men. Yes, I did
like a kind of a semi comedic anthropologist study of
guys I know, and I ended up talking about a
lot of this stuff. So check either one or those

(01:08:05):
two things out dirt Bag Anthropology on Audible and or
my special on Amazon Loopholes. Thank you, and follow me
on Instagram Kate dot will it with two l's and
two teas.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
And Kate's first album has the best cover I've ever seen.
It is a like direct reference to my favorite album
Live Through This by Whole.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
It is a millennial fave.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Yeah yeah, wow, Well then let's George, will you introduce
our final segment?

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Of course I would be delighted. Our final segment is
called straight Shooters, and in this wait what am I saying?
Our final segment is called shout Outs. And in this
segment we pay homage to a to the classic straight
tradition of the radio shout out. You're in TRL shouting

(01:08:56):
out something back home, and in classic straight lab fashion,
we think of them on the spot. So each of
us is going to shout out something that we are
absolutely living for. And Sam, do you have one?

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
No? I think if I'm really racking my brain.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Okay, I can this is I can do one. I
can do one. Okay, okay, what's up listeners out there?
And what's up people on planes? People pressing play on
movies on planes. I recently rewatched Mis Congeniality on a
flight from New York to the Great American City of Chicago,
and I remember when I was young, I didn't quite
get Benjamin Brad. I said, you know, Coursty's hop, but

(01:09:31):
it's not the It's not really my type. When I
watched this movie, now, to say it was feral would
be an understatement. I almost got out of my seat
took you know, and started, you know, doing a mating
ritual dance in the middle of the airplane. I said,
this man should have Brad its career. It is, as
far as I'm concerned, it is Benjamin brat summer. So

(01:09:53):
write that down and shout out to Benjamin Brad. I
don't know what he's up to. I looked him up.
He so hot, older eight in miscons Reality that film,
you know, a lot of things have not aged well
in it, I'm sorry to say, one of which is
that as a joke, he keeps and I kid you,
not slapping the ass of his female coworker, just as
a joke throughout the entire movie. But you know what,

(01:10:14):
we've all grown. Shout out to Sandra Bullock, shout out
to Benjamin Bratt, and shout out to beauty pageants. Let's
bring him back. I love they are great.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
We're anxiety love those. Okay, let's think, let's think, okay,
I mean, okay, what's up everyone around the globe. I
want to give a shout out to wearing white pants.
I have never in my life owned white jeans before,

(01:10:43):
and now I do. And I put them on and
I said, am I really going to be a guy
who wears white jeans, and then you're like, actually, once
you wear them, you're like, wait, everyone around me is
wearing white jeans too, and they're actually very normal. And
we create these rules where we're like, I'm not that,
I'm not that, I'm not that, and then if you
just wear them, you're like, well, I guess I am that. Basically,
we're all just a collection of clothes and we can

(01:11:05):
change at any point, and everything is fake, and it's
actually really amazing to put on something that you've written
off forever and ever and then you're like, Okay, I
guess it's actually really normal. And I was being weird
about this the whole time. Shout out to white jeans.
It's pretty exciting. We're in a brand new world and
now I'm in LA and I can wear whatever the
hell I want because no one knows me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Xoxo, Sam Who All right, Kate, whenever you're ready.

Speaker 4 (01:11:29):
I want to give a shout out to an old friend,
a reliable friend.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
The breakfast sandwich. You know, I have had.

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
A lot of different breakfast in my life, and I really,
you know, I think that there's nothing so simple, complete
and elegant as a breakfast sandwich. I had one two
days ago for breakfast that was it was sausage and
egg on.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
A roll. It was delicious. And then the following day this.

Speaker 4 (01:11:59):
More I had, you know, just eggs and toast, and
it really just was like not the same. I was like,
why don't we just put the egg on the toast,
you know, and also have it with a little bit
of bacon.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
And you know, if you're looking for a simple.

Speaker 4 (01:12:15):
Hortible breakfast, it's a classic, reliable favorite. And I just
you know, I want to give some love to all
the breakfast sandwiches out there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
Thank you for always being there for me.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
We love it. Well, that's huge, that is yes, especially
you know I've been traveling this weekend and to find
a good breakfast sanmature breakfast burrito even oh yeah, the
whole day.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
It can really make your day better.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
Well, Kate, this has been an absolute delight. Everyone watch
Kate's special, listening to Kate's audiobook, listen to Kate's previous album,
Follow Kate on all platforms, and you know, maybe cold
DM her with any dating questions if you're a great idea. Yeah,
that's a really good idea. Actually, definitely do that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
Do that?

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
All right, thank you, Thank you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
This is a blast podcast and now want more. Subscribe
to our Patreon for two extra episodes a month, discord
access and more by heading to patreon dot com. Slash
Stradio Lab.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
And for all our visual learners, free full length video
episodes are available on our YouTube.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
Now get back to work.

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