"Theater" w/ Charlene Incarnate

Today we are joined by nightlife legend and general encyclopedia Charlene Incarnate to talk about theater. That's right, theater is straight. Before you get out your pitchforks and torches, maybe you should listen to some of her incredible points that are backed by peer-reviewed data. Plus, we talk about the types of gay guys who play tennis, the chastity play of living in New York City, and the waves of gay in pop music. This is an ep will show you what it means...to be memorable.


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
HOODI who everyone, This is your weekly show update. If
you are in New York City, you can see me
George Severis do an hour of stand up comedy at
the legendary Joe's Pub on November fourteenth and November twenty fifth,
and the first show is almost sold out, but there
are a few tickets left for the second one. It
is a genuine dream come true to do Joe's Pub,
so I would really love to see some glamour girls

(00:21):
in the crowd. And you can get tickets to both
of those shows at Publictheater dot org. And if you're
in the beautiful Canadian city of Toronto, we are at
long last doing a Stradio Lab Toronto show on Saturday,
November twenty third at the Paradise Theater and tickets to
that show are available in our Instagram bio and on
linktree dot com slash Stradio Lab. And there, I have

(00:44):
to say, already going fast, so I would act now
enjoy the show.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Podcast starts now. Welcome all to Stradio Lab live from
New York City.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
I just started a black coffee at eleven fifty am.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I love it about to be souring well, I want
to tell you something coffee related, since we're on coffee
right now, you know, coffee chat, since we're on coffee chat.
As we all know, I've been living in LA for
the last six months, and one feeling that I forgot
about in New York that I really miss is the
sort of chastity play of holding a coffee with one hand,

(01:38):
holding onto the subway with the other and getting a
buzz on your phone and being like what do I do?
And it's like, what if it's important? And it's like
it never is, but it's like I want nothing more
than for the next forty five minutes, all I'm thinking
about is looking at my phone.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
So much of living New York is balancing various things
on your two hands.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
And it really is.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
It's actually like there's such a romance to it because
you are Anne Hathawaynea the worst product when you have
like phone, water bottle. I refuse to wear AirPods. It's
wired headphones that are just trailing behind me. You know,
tote bag where both straps are falling off. Then you're
also and then you get it in the inside of

(02:16):
your elbow and then you want to like hold the
door for someone. Then that person is like rude to
you then so they use they had to flap them off.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, well, yes, I mean the way that a tote bag.
I don't know if I've said this on the pod,
but a tote bag is such a foreign idea in
La people there do not use them. If you bring
them around, people are like, are you moving? It's like
one of the weirder things.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
I have had a realization recently that I'm a huge
tote bag gay sure, and I've had a realization recently
I have to it would do so much more for
the gravitas that I have if I switch to like
a nice leather bag.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
But you'd lose your humanity or.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Would I gain a sense of sort of authority, a
sense of gravitas like I imagine me in like a gorgeous,
expensive like leather tote bag.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, this is the difference between you and I, because
for me, I'm like, but then you won't be mad
with the people like to me, the tote bag is
what shows people like I'm a member of this community
and I'm not trying to get ahead of you guys, But.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
You know how the tote bag I always care around
is my London Review of Books tute bag, which is
literally me signaling I.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Read I read, yeah, No, I get it. Maybe you
should just lean in the yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
I've this is a general thing where I was like,
I bought genes that actually fit me rather than being
like big and bush Wiki, and I was like, oh
is this am I am? I gonna start just dressing
like a businessman now.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Oh Like, but it doesn't feel like an age thing
to you.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
No, I think it actually feels there's something about like
it's the very obvious thing of like, wait, so if
things fit you correctly and look expensive, then you look
better rather than worse.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
But but you lose your edge.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
No, I know it's true.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
I've been feeling very I'm staying in Bushwick while I'm
back back in the old stomping ground, and the way
that like in the last six months, everyone is wearing
like the baggy the ripped I'm like, oh, I look Republican.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Now yeah, I know, all of a sudden we both
look Republicans. It's and actually our guest looks very cool
and Garry Bushwick.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, which should we ring?

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Ye our guest, I'm ready, I say. We have been
wanting to have this guest.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
On for please introduce, Please introduce.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
I just think she's one of the funniest people alive.
And I want to say also, just a real performers
are rare these days. I actually think sometimes people do
performing as a way to avoid death or as a
way to like prove that they exist. Yeah, and so
people have.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
It's lost, it's art.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
I agree, and so I please welcome to the podcast, Charlie.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
You see, I'm really glad that I didn't miss that
intro segment that I was really afraid that I might,
because I was ten minutes late. No very straight behavior,
I might add, I should have been a whole half
hour exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
No, I feel like ten minutes late is the most
neoliberal amount of time to be late, like you are basically,
you know, the vice president running late to a meeting.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
It's like, I have to explain it, but the train
is enough at ten minutes right. Anything over that and
I'm practically had to knock the dick out of my
mouth to gives here to make it even a half
hour on time. See what, I'm glad I didn't miss
that opening segment because I was going to begin speaking
with something like a scoff like ugh, because I and

(05:42):
right away I must give away a lot. I'm not
actually a podcast gay not typically No, I give good podcast.
I give good guest. I've been in this very room
before for like a virgin An iHeart production. But I
in this day and age, I find that podcast radio okay.

(06:03):
So de facto what we're doing, we're replacing the am
radio of our youth. And I used to love that
when I was a child and I was a much
lonelier person, because I think what we're doing is we're
actually just creating the sensation for someone who's alone and
doing a task alone that they're not so much alone. Nowadays,
I have too many bitches in my ear NonStop and

(06:25):
nauseum all day long, very gay New York behavior, and
so I don't have much peace and quiet. I like
to fill my time with airwaves of nice music, something
that keeps the demons at bay, rather than more gay
people flapping their gums at me. Totally, So, I have
to say that I had not really done my due

(06:47):
diligence for Stradio Lab until I was on a very
long road trip this past week, and I did a
nice sampling of all five seasons from YouTube oh my god.
And I know that especially it's and now we're the
second recording of the day. Especially in the second recording,
you two tend to be a little hard on each
other at the top of the show. So I'm glad

(07:09):
I didn't miss that because now I know not to
open with a scoff because you are talking about such
levity tote bags, the difference between LA and New York.
Now I can say, hi, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
What an honor to such a clear way is and
always such a great feeling.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
At the particular in the second recording of the day,
we are hard on each other.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
You know, and you start reusing words habitually. I know
Joe didn't throw any sat words at us, so I'm
probably in the clear, right.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, you know that when I get stressed, it's like
an animal, like when it's scared, it starts using big words.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah. And my my stress reaction is just like talking
about things that make me horny. Yeah, Like it's like
I guess I'll just do that, yeah, which I kind
of did last episode. Actually, that's true.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
We were talking about how well we can't go into
it again, but we're talking about what if Paul Hollywood,
wud be a top robot.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
That's what Joe Castle baker And well that.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Was not his topic, but it was something that one
of the things we were talking about.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
No. I met her over a decade ago when she
was giving her she was trying her hand at the
drag game under the name Michelle Brunch. Joe is still
one of my favorites. Yeah, do you know this?

Speaker 2 (08:23):
I think I maybe knew that he had done it,
like a little bit, but not in a big way.
A little bit, wow, said Charlie.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
You one time had a tweet many years ago which
I'm going to Butcher, which was like gay guys asked
me all the time, Charlene, we've met before, why don't
you remember me? And I tell them, sweetee, just do
one memorable thing ever, I.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Mean, distinguish thyself. I've all got strand too bags.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
It's actually such a perfect response because it's like, I
don't remember you because you were not memorable.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Like grow some tits or something.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yes, literally do something like get a dangly earring, dangle
ear What do you have to do to take yourself apart?
These days?

Speaker 2 (09:04):
I literally don't know.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Have me on a podcast, that's right, you'll do your research.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Oh my god, I would say I the thing with
that that I like about listening to gay podcasts versus
like because I also like, I'm horrible at responding to texts,
Like if someone's like, you need to send this email,
it'll take me three days. But I love a podcast because, like,
I can have the joy of having a conversation without
having the pressure of needing to respond. Ever, yeah, I
love that I can just sort of like eavesdrop and

(09:32):
not participate.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
And then the one time you'll have a thought, you'll
be like, oh, they're so stupid for not thinking.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, you're writing as fast as they can.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, I get a little peeved that I can't interject.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
And then I've always wondering why your guests didn't think,
knowing knowing them as the you know, convivial, lighthearted and
very quick spirits that I know them. At two am,
I'm like, why can't they fucking think? And here I
am at eleven am. I've never I have not been
awake this early in perhaps like a half decade, And

(10:05):
that was a municipal appointment, something like something like the DMV.
First my little alarm clock.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
I was like, so, wait, I have a question, what
is your normal sleeping schedule? Oh, you know you're a
night life.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah girl, Yeah, a night life girl, so to speak,
normal sleeping schedule. What's normal?

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (10:26):
I don't know. My circadian rhythms all fucked up. I
medicate up, I medicate down a regular Judy Garland, you
know what I mean. I love it. I love it.
I feel cozy as a and snug as a buget rug.
If I'm in bed before two on a not work night,
oh sure night. I'll get home between four and five.
It's fine in the winter because it's still a night time.

(10:47):
But when that sun's creeping up, you just have to
go out on the fire skid smell one more joint
and then next thing you know, it's noon and you
gotta and you've got a brunch to be it. We're
gay in New York, right whatever.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
I speaking of brunch there. I have a second hand
story that I think about all the time where Josh
Sharp was at one of your brunches and a Michael
Jackson song came on, and his telling of it is
you ran to the microphone and you said, Michael, all
is forgiven.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
Nobody cares anymore. Well, you know, it was like that
there was like several years ago there was that completely damning,
utterly first person primary source, fully expoposing documentary Wade Robson
and all them, and then of course Oprah had it
pulled from the airwaves completely because it didn't follow like

(11:39):
you know, us do process or something like really really
crazy like threat you to remember that Oprah had it removed.
And nowadays you hear Michael Jackson music.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
There was a dip there, Yes, there was.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
And nowadays and nowadays it's like, you know, everyone forgot Oprah.
Really she nudged the Mandela effect in her favor a
little bit there.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, the way op Oprah's I know this, it's a
cliche to talk about Oprah's power. Of Courseia so much
power over our culture, but it is kind of crazy
to think this kind of soft power is unheard of.
She chose our president. She like she decides who gets
canceled and who doesn't. She currently currently it's clear that

(12:23):
she's in cahoots with the Elvis estate, because there she is.
She just picked the new Lisa Marie Presley book in
her book club. It's a posthumous book about Elvis, and
they are trying with Graceland. There's like a lot going
on where they're trying to like get buzz around Elvis again.
That's why there's so many Elvis movies. They like, what's
the goal, just like to make more money, like the Elvis.

(12:44):
It's like, Okay, it's been long enough without us caring
about Elvis. Time to go Elvis again. Okay, there's like
a big movie. There's like you know, and Oprah is
you know, it's she's essentially a hired pr.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, we should have to elect the next Oprah.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
I know who will be the next Oprah.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
She send a bunch of kids to my high school
on scholarship. And when that's when I thought it was
like not as nefarious, but but the but the post
facto pardoning of my goal. It's really like if you,
I mean you talk about the Elvis thing that's pumping
a lot of money into the Tennessee state economy.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yes, exactly bad for a gay Yeah, they've got.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
All those they like, you know, they're trying to like
d trans total trans children and ship and then also
with that, uh, oh my god, when you say Elvis,
it just makes me think it is a small tangent.
Okay here at the top of the show, a very
gay topic, a topic for Gadio lap the Oh Mary
opening night, do you remember they had Elvis their front

(13:43):
and center, sitting next to uh who is it Claudia
Schiffer's daughter, Cindy Crawford. Whoa They had her front and center,
maybe second or third row so they could still see
the feet. That's the real premium SERI totally on Broadway.
But yeah, okay, so they had they had her there,

(14:06):
and they also had mister Russell from the Gilded Age there.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Oh hot guy, hot guy, furry.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Really like what is his elvis? However, has a neck
that I could snap one hand. I could fit my
whole hand around his neck and snap it. But I
learned something really profound about Hollywood's stardom and all the
things of the light that night. We won't say any
more about Oh Mary. I mean that bitch. His name

(14:40):
is on the airwaves quite enough, but I will say this,
people straight people monolithically. Really, I had not realized the gravity,
the degree to which we prefer and deify movie stars
over television.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Even in the age of TV, when no one even
watches movies. But still, if you know Kate Winslet walks
into a room, it's over right.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, And so Elvi, we've got Russell, mister Russell, what's
his fucking name? I don't know. He's got a really
cute wife. They were dressed like, you know, downtown ish.
He was standing on the sidewalk, and of course all
of us we're too, we're we're at the Omry premiere ourselves,
we're at opening night ourselves, so we're not gonna go
up to mister Russell. But Elvis, on the other hand,

(15:30):
she walks out and there is immediately a swarm of
straight people. How did they even know? I thought we
were like trying to keep it under wraps or something.
They knew he was there already. There's a guy who's
coming up with, like I don't know, his own custom
merch for him to sign. He's like, my man, there
you are. Elvis is like, hey, no, there you are again.

(15:51):
How did they know? And I was like, oh, whereas
in gay culture we really really prefer the mister just
because of their hotness. They're on TV. We watch all
our movies on TV. Anyway, mister Russell is who all
of us who are too cool to swarm him because
we're at the we're gay, and we're in the fucking

(16:12):
you know, we're the capital of pan m verbialy ourselves.
We're not gonna bother him. Yeah, the movie star, she's
not safe on Broadway.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
No, no, well, because Broadway is Broadway is the most
like it's so mainstream, like it's so Disney, you know
what I mean. Like you think I remember growing up
not being in New York City. You have this image
of Broadway being the coolest place you can be, and
it's like the tippy top, and then you go there.
And I have a similar story for you, which is

(16:41):
when I went to see The Outsiders musical, I turn around,
I see Tony Kushner in the audience. I was very starstruck.
And then I see people start to hound someone. I'm like, oh,
they're going to Tony Kushner. But then they passed him,
They're going to somewhere else. Young Sheldon was in the audience.
Everyone was ignoring Tony Kushner. And when I tell you,
there was a line in intermission of people waiting to

(17:02):
meet Young Sheldon, which obviously, yes, more people know Young
Sheldon than Tony Kuscher, But it is just like that
is the level of culture we're talking about it outsiders
the musical Yeah, it's not. People are not gonna want
to talk to to the like hot theater trained guy
on on the TV show anyway.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
It's literally that meme with the line with the lines
there's like one person on one line stop and think
or top between. Yeah, yeah, literally yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Should we do her for a segment?

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Oh well, yes.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
I was thinking that was a fabulous segue into our
main topic. I know, I know that way. That's when
I get here.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
The segment out of the way, let's.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Do Let's okay, perfect, Tarlie. In our first segment is
called straight Shooters. And in the segment, we're going to
ask you a series of rapid fire questions to gage
your familiarity with and complicity and straight culture. Okay, it's
basically this thing or this other thing. And the only
rule is you can't ask any follow up questions or
we will scream so loud it will make your ears ring.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
I'm choosing a preference. I'm saying what comes to question?
Oh shit, okay, okay, Charlene, I'm talking for a few Okay, sorry, Charlene.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Diving into the deep blue sea or suffering from adult ADHD.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
Which is more gay the diving for sure. The ADHD thing.
We got gay people identifying into that left and right.
It's practically autism at this point.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Practically okay.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Hoasting friends giving or toasting to French living.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
The more straight of the two is toasting to French
living abs a fucking tute.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Panic at the disco or being mannic in San Francisco.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Probably the manneque in San Francisco is the straighter of
the two options. Lots of gay people running around, identity crises,
panic at the disco, that dude wears eyeliner.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, ye, okay. Cancel culture or juicy cutoor.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Ooh wow, we're just like the days in the New
York Times Crossword. We're getting a little tougher. I'm inclined
to say juicy couture because my first girlfriend in high
school wore it religiously. Wow.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yes, Double Jeopardy Doubles, Tennis, double penetration or Dublin Ireland.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
I'm gonna go with tennis.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Yeah, I never met at tennis playing gay.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
Okay, let's put him in that, because really I've only
met tennis play.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
It's the new thing, an old soul, or a loose hole.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
The straighter of the two is the loose hole. I
know that's probably controversial, but I could explain it if
I had the time. This is rapid fire, trade.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Shooting, buying a cyber truck, or finding a guy to fuck.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
The straighter of the two is probably finding a guide
to fuck.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, totally, I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Okay, and I know Queen's on wait lists for that
cyber truck.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Being sleepy and wanting a Macha latte or touching something
steaming and going Hachi.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
Machi Macha latte has rainbows coming out of the steam.
So the other although I'm not even sure I remember
what you said.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
Wow, Well, you know we rank our guest performance on
a scale of one to one thousand doves.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, do you think Charlene did? I think Charlene really
pushed through. There was an instinct ask questions, and then
she sort of built her own government within the game.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
I agree, and there was a confidence there that I
really respected.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yes, so I'm gonna go nine.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Okay, how do you feel?

Speaker 3 (20:46):
I mean, I feel like I've been found out because
I claim to have listened to this several times and
then had no idea.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
How and I didn't want to say anything.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
No. I mean like I was driving and smoking pot
and like, I don't.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Know, man, I love it that that was iconic.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Well, it's so clearly see us at the beginning. And
then I.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Have no idea what's going on.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
I was like, this is actually that was.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Not a preference. It is a preference or like what
straight I did.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
The whole sort of point of it is that it
like trips everyone up because there's no rules, so every grade,
so then everyone you have to like go with the
one that you are feeling more connected to.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
I am just to jumble up my bullet points for
this to be an engaging conversation.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, I do.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
I am curious about your assertion that there are no
gay guys playing tennis. We must run in such different circles.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
I think it's because I well, you you live in
New York, don't you, And you are all of your
tennis playing gays in Greece. No, No, no, they are.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
It's like you know, I think a lot of them
are younger than us.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Some are.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
There is this I'm realizing now. Maybe it's all one
friend group, and.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
There is like literally I know who plays tennis and
posts about it a lot, is it? Well?

Speaker 3 (22:02):
I know, Okay, Well, there's there's a suspicion I have
that these guys are actually would be or will be
trans women. What you know that like myself hetero?

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Do you feel like I actually I think there's something
to what you're saying, Like tennis is a very elegant
feminine right, like you want to be Zindia. Yes, of course,
Well I'll look out for that.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
There's a feminine affect that's associated with homosexuality. I'm trying
in this day and age just sort of like sad.
You know, we've done a lot of work in our
lifetimes to separate gender and sexuality. You know, we even
like if you were to take if you were to
take a class on it when we were that age,

(22:54):
they might insist, yes, I am growing up in this
in this city, in this world, and this sexual orientation.
I'm inclined to disagree. I think they're more the more informed,
really other hearer, I completely agree.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
This is one of those things that always I remember,
like when we were in college, and it would be
like the person that works at the LGBT center comes
and gives a talk and it's like trans one on
one and gay one on one, and like how does
it all work? And then people will be like, okay,
misconception number one, gender is the same as sexuality, so
the reason that's not true. Yeah, and then they would
like do this whole thing and you'd be like, wait
a minute, our whole thing here is smashing binaries and

(23:31):
you are insisting on this boundary between gender and sexuality.
Whyder you're look in the mirror, Chica.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, I mean like, uh, you know, before you come
out of the closet and you hear that statistic of
like you're like, I am I am a ten percent statistic.
It's that one in ten when every ten. And then
you come out of the closet and you start getting
the and you start realizing registering the eyes that are
coming your way, and you're like, ooh, it's actually might
be quite a bit more than that. We might be

(23:59):
talking about like openly practicing gay people or maybe one intent,
and then in your lived experience it's more like eight
or nine.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
I mean, I will say ninety percent of people I
know are gay.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Right where you're a coast as well.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
It's also like I'm sure the one intent thing is
like some study that was published in nineteen seventy nine,
right that like was put in Time magazine. Someone read
it and then it was like, oh, that's the thing.
It's like how people are like, one glass of red
wine is good for you. No, it's not. But someone
just said that.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Well now they took it back. Actually they took it back.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
But we're like back when people said that, like dark
chocolate is good for you.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, just like I love studies like that.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
It's anything dark.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Chocolate and the wine. They both come with a lot
of sugar, which apparently I don't know cancels it out.
I do both.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
Still, well, there's something about knowing that one glass of
wine is not good for you. We're like, oh, then
I might as well have seven.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
I mean no, I literally have like convinced myself to
kill a soda are good for.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Also, it's like the glass, it's not a unit, and
everyone's like, how many cuts of coffee did you have?
How many tabs of acid did you do? I'm like,
I got those are not units, like the actual what
we're what we're talking about, Like if I have a gigantic,
big gulf. I still had one cup of coffee.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
I mean beer and shot as one drink.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
Well obviously, I mean if it's a standard shot that
is a unit and the beer is twelve ounces.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
So I yeah, you know, it's funny to say that
about tequila soda. I recently no reason convince myself getting
a gent tonic is healthier than getting a tequila sota.
There's literally no scientific basis to it. But I'm literally like,
if I'm in a healthy mood, I'm like, you know
what I'll do.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Wait, let's see here. There is so gin is essentially
it's it's vodka. It's a Juniper Berry's T shirt in
it is like it's like seeped with the juniper berry.
There's your lead. If the juniper berry itself is medicinal, yes,
or if you can find some witches who say that
it is, you can you can work with you can

(26:04):
work the proof of that theory.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Okay, surely, and uh not to once again change course,
but I'm so desperate to get on the topic that,
oh yeah, make you just get right back into it.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Let's I brought up the statistics thing for a reason
though it was like a punctuation and maybe even another
seg way too. Oh no, the thing about one inten,
the thing about yes, yes, yeah, Okay, so we've got
tennis playing gays. You find out as you as you
travel down the rabbit hole of queerness that not only
are you dealing with a sampling of straight people who
are lying about being gay, and we're actually dealing with

(26:37):
nine or ten, eight or eight, nine or ten out
of ten people who are actually somewhat queer. You you
you take those one, you take the sampling of that
one inten, we have a new population, the one intent
the gay people, the like queers within that one, within
that ten percent. We're also dealing with a skewed statistic

(27:00):
because we have the belief that trans people are like
marginalized or like fewer in numbers than the like, big
bad cisc gay man. Really the numbers are about the same.
You're dealing with a whole population of gay men who,
if you know, if things were different in our society

(27:21):
or whatever, eight or nine probably would be women if
they chose so. I would be willing to bet that
your tennis playing gays are trans. Yeah, probably Wow, probably
wouldn't like es. Actually, what we're doing is like changing
ourselves into gorgeous women, yes, from gay men into gorgeous women,

(27:41):
not all of us. There's a oh my god. When
I figured out that trans dykes were a thing, my
mind was blown. You mean someone into women who wants
to do all of this, couldn't imagine right sexuality thing.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
Anyway, our topic, yes, is as we were talking about earlier.
Of course, we have to know this is this is
not an episode of Gadio Lab that's right, which is
a phrase I know having done my research.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well, yes, we've had two Gadea Web guests, Macy and and.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Let's However, I must insist that even that this is
an episode of Stradio yeb, I must insist that my
the corner of straight culture that we must choose the
fat on right now is theater in New York.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yes, this is obviously an interesting and controversial topic because
people will say, well, theater that's gay. Absolutely What would
you say to those people?

Speaker 3 (28:42):
It was, Yeah, it was. It was in the glory days,
and it has phases. It's a lot like pop music
in that way, which is something a little more palatable
to our non coastal elite listeners to understand we have
we have the aughts in pop music. We've got Beyonce
wearing denim on the red carpet. We have a boring

(29:07):
era from like I don't know too that by the
time you know Britain, Brittany losing it, between Brittany losing
it and of course Lady Gaga coming along, you're talking
about the k Denham on Well, Katy Perry counts with.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Oh, Katie starts absolutely, so we're talking like seven to
twelve or something.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
No, no, no, no, I'm marking Gaga as a return
of gay pop. We had a drab era. We had
really drab era. We had the Ashley Simpson catastrophe which
now nowadays autobiography. I'm like, she's back a huge but see,
because pop music is gay again. We had a Lady

(29:47):
Gaga burst onto the scene and all the girls found
out that people like it if you put flower pots
on your head again, and so ergo, pop music is
gay again. We had fabulous clothes, we had dance beats.
We were in and then of course we'd start going away.
We got Lady Gaga wearing a cowboy hat. We don't
we got the twing twang in and the yeehah, and

(30:09):
we've got people infiltrating the works who are not necessarily
Nowadays we have full it's a way. What's what I'm
What's what I'm trying to say is that even though
gay guys are into it all the time, hm, it's
not necessarily gay all the time. In today's era in
theater in New York City, we are witnessing a shift

(30:32):
back into gay theater. However, we have been in a
drought an era in the past. In our tenure as
gay New Yorkers, we've mostly been in an era where
theater in New York is consumed by and participated in,
and the creative slant is really a lot, really really straight.

(30:59):
In my opinion, actually can't.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
This is like very smart, yeah, because I've never thought
of It's one of those things where like because it's
such a like stereotype, it's like theater is gay, theater
is gay, you like forget to examine it as something straight.
And I am thinking, like, no one I know is
like going to musicals regularly, Like like you are the
only person I know that like goes to place and

(31:22):
like the plays are generally like, yes, there's always like
one play that's for like cool Brooklyn people like, but like,
but most of it, ninety percent of it is for
like people from Long Island coming to visit on yeah,
like Christmas morning. So I love.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
I was trying to express this to Charlian before we record.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
I love.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
I love theater, and I love going to the theater.
What I struggle with and have struggled with historically is
the Broadway musical. And I think I can most relate
to what you're saying in terms of, like just the
influx of terrible IP based Yeah, like Legally Blonde, the musical,
Mean Girls, the musical Matilmo's like, just it is just constant.

(32:03):
I mean the one I was just mentioning Outsiders, which
actually was pretty good. But it's just it's this like
Disney marvelification of Broadway, and it almost seems like the
business model is one of like venture capital or something like.
It's like you can imagine people in a board meeting
being like, Okay, we're gonna combine people love three things.
They love Hillary Clinton, Yeah, they love you know, uh,

(32:29):
Sex and the City, and they love Marvel. What can
we do that combines all three and it sucks.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah sort of.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
It's like it's this kind of like artless paint by numbers,
like calculation for what the crowd will want.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
It really is like disrespectful to what a musical could
be writing, because it is just like it's like it's
as if someone hates musical theater and is making a musical.
They're like, what, you just put songs and something we
already like, sure, do that, yeah, and it's like, well,
shouldn't you, as the like producer of Broadway, like have
a bigger vision? Shouldn't you care more? Like sure, I
can be a bit about it and be like, oh yeap,

(33:09):
take some shitty moving and put a song in it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Also, the price, I would say, adds the straitness because
you were talking, this is something that should be an
art for the people. An art form for the people
is the most exclusive thing in New York. The most
including thing in York is seeing Book of Mormon.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Well, I mean it should it shouldn't be that way.
We're supposed to be the ones with the disposable income.
That's true, yeah, you know, prohibitively expensive. Yeah, but I
mean the game ones are even more so these days.
I just think it's like it's it's like we didn't
even realize it was happening. There was a glory days
in the dark days of pop that I was just

(33:47):
talking about. We were in the glory days of theater
in New York City. We had we had we had
the John Doyle Broadway productions. Those were two Broadway Sondheim
revivals wherein the band was on stage and compromises that
players themselves.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Was that the Company One.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
Company in two thousand and six, and then I believe
it was after that that the Sweeney Todd Yes, I
don't know which one.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
I don't know much about the Sweeney tip One, but
the Company One is like was huge in my like
finally understanding some time is that album? Oh yeah, and
I'm and And then I went and saw the company
they did last year and I was like shocked.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
That's what I'm saying, girl. Yeah, it's frustraight people.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Now, you know, it's also funny, like to do a
gender to do a gender flip company, right, something you
would think is on paper, you're like, oh, that's quote
unquote queer quote unquote different, and then it ends up
being more straight.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
And the and the press thinks it was fabulous. Yes
they do, they do. But if you have any card
carrying homosexual who knows their shit, who you talked to,
who saw that production? Ugh, there we go, finally a scoff.
I don't know whose idea it was. And also, by
the way, Sondheim himself a gay guy, yes blocked and

(35:05):
a gay rendering of company back in the day and
approved of this one, which I just think, Oh, it's
so suspect to me. I don't know who thought of
that character as a woman, But I don't want to
go to the theater and see three men say that
a woman is crazy in an upbeat sing song. I
don't need it in my life, like I don't need

(35:26):
the So the character Bobby, she's turning thirty five years old,
and they turn it into this whole biological clock thing.
I'm like, is being miserable and alone not enough anymore?
That's they have to also be barren. No, seriously, it's
not just like I don't want to be alone. It's like, oh,
I want to bear a child, and they have all
these thirty fives in this staging. Oh, it was just horrendous.

(35:49):
And also that mark at the end of Act one
that she had to hit this mark. It must have
been a dime on the stage to have a single
panel of rain following her at the end of Mary
Meal Litter a little the uh, the final number in
act one, which I think saw him just put in
there because we have to have an intermission. That song
is just nothing special and.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
This is an international rain on her during being Alive.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
No that you're thinking of the end of act one,
did you leave?

Speaker 1 (36:14):
I would have okay, okay, but yes, I remember the rain.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
I remember the rain, right, a single panel that she
has to hit a mark on a dime. Yeah, And
I think that they actually you saw an early uh
you saw it in the early on in the run
because I think that they scrapped the rain. Oh.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
I think in the end the rain was so bad it.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Was, wasn't it. And then they have the same costume
that she changes into in the intermission. That's like they
have a dry one and like run. I'm just like
she's wearing the same thing.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
And the cads, oh my god, the Keds. They had
Homegirl out here in Keds. She was in a heel
in the playbill. Thank god.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Okay, so you mentioned something about like the critics loving it,
which I think is another part of this which is
a mass delusion. Not only are we going to produce
bad stuff, we are going to gaslight you into thinking
it's good. We are going to we're gonna put something
self evidently bad on stage and then almost as though
we're paying them off, have every critic like talk out

(37:08):
of their ass.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
And because not as many people can see us, get
away with it. Because like in a movie, if like
a critic is like it's amazing and then one million
people go see it, they're like, well it kind of sucks.
Then it's like, well that critic's bad. Yeah, But here,
if only like a thousand people can see it, they're like,
I guess that critic knows better.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
More people are gonna read the review than are going
to see.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Them, absolutely, which is also not to give them more airtime.
We know that many people are already talking about on
the air. But that's why Omary is so impressive too,
because it's getting all these rave reviews and then you
go and you're like, wait, it actually is amazing, and
as amazing as people say.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
I know, it's here's a question like is this just
like a form of nostalgia where in my mind, like
it used to be all scrappy theater makers now like
it did it did used to be like it did.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
Well, No, it used to be What I'm saying is
it used to be gay. When we were teenagers, there
was a revival of Fiddler on the Roof. Not many
people remember this. Fiddler in the Roof one of the
most canonically heteroe musicals ever created about values, traditions and
you know, like you know, someone holding onto those in
the face of progressivism and like you know, you know,

(38:14):
exile and everything. We had a revival on Broadway starring
in the heterosexual married Couple starring Roles Harvey Feirestein and
Rosi o'donna. I did not know that.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
That's so Like, I'm sure this is classic theater history
that I should know, but.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Find it on YouTube. We have those two sing to
each other, do you love me? Do I? What?

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Literally, by the way, like Gay Broadway isn't doing a
gay company. Gay Broadway is doing a straight couple played
by Harvey Firestein and roso don Like that is there
has to be this undercurrent, it has to be like
family values on stage, but an undercurrent of just debasement.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well, because you're like, that's what makes it fun. The
literalism of like it being gay people isn't what makes
it fun.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
And And like Patti Lapone as Joanne in that I'm
a I'm I have a Patty Lapone tattoo on my end.
But I will say that her that casting her as
Joanne in that production, giving her that wig and that
faulk for It's Yeah, it just seemed it was worn.
It was worn and weathered like a ride at Disney

(39:28):
for me, Like it's a small world after all. It's
so utterly obvious. And she did it. She in the
playbook she said, just having fun with this one. I'm like, okay,
you know, not like I didn't student rush you as
Mama Rose four different times just so you could spit
on me from four different angles, so I could try

(39:49):
and catch one of the ripped up pieces of the
letter at the end of Everything's Coming Up roses that
you throw into the crowd at the end of act one,
Like now, she's just like, I'll dream to that. Oh God,
just so so perfectly timed to with the Sondheim death
happening right in the middle just a perfect storm of

(40:12):
hetero nonsense. It was for me. There's a few standouts.
That Tony winning performance from Jennifer Simard. I think is
how you pronounced that she was the Uh, she was
the sole talented person in the cast, if you recall,
if you recall, she was the one about the like

(40:33):
obsessed with so quickly girl. I love Matt Doyle. I
saw him in Spring Awakening Us as a younger gay. Uh.
Several times I fancied myself sort of a distant relative
of his. We kind of have saying this, he's got
a Mediterranean vibe, right, Sure, I will say this. There
was probably nothing more disappointing to me than that gay

(40:57):
rendering of Amy and Paul. Having seen the John Doyle
performance myself and I think her name was Heather Laws. Wow.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Another support Sam So this is this is a song
not Getting Married Today, which famously is so fast.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Like You're just like.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
It has It's this incredibly difficult, just technically difficult.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
It's a patter song. Patter song is a theater term
for a song that that requires so much vocally, not
in terms of maybe the notes of the singer, it
requires so much vocally in the mouth. It's the tip
of the tongue, the roof of the mouth, the teeth
and the lips of musical theater. And it is supposed
to mimic the sound of rain pattering on a roof.

(41:46):
So we have like I Am the No. No of
a modern major General, or like whatever, we've got pottered
songs all over. That one by Sondheim is sort of
like the grandmother of all Potter songs. And the meter
that Sondheim wrote it in, the tempo that Sondheim rohoded
it in is impossibly fast. Heather Laws in the John
Doyle Company in two thousand and six, she did it.

(42:08):
You can see it on PBS. They recorded that shit.
They were not about to let that thing go undocumented.
Matt Doyle in the revival. Just to match the flavor
of the rest of the production, I want to say,
they slowed it down to about half speed for her
and change the key. It's fine. You know, she's family.

(42:29):
I do hope for a Tony Wynn in her funeral,
in her future, like you know, somehow, some way, I
think Jennifer from that, from that production, I think she's
going to be. I think she's going to be in
this death becomes her revival. That's happening, which I'm excited
to see. This is what I'm talking about it. We're
moving back. We're moving back towards gay theater. We've got

(42:51):
Omary on Broadway. We've got the Jellical Ball likely transferring
if God is real.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
I couldn't.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
I couldn't get tickets. It was a hot tike and
you know it's one of those things where okay, so
this is actually related to this theater being straight. I
hear something. I hear they're doing cats and it's ballroom
My initial thought is not how cool and gay. My
initial thought is, without knowing anything about it, this is
a cynical straight thing, and they're trying to get the

(43:18):
drag race audience because I've been so trained to be skept,
to be suspicious of projects like that. So then I
didn't get tickets. Come to find out, all the gays
love it, and I should have gone. But like that
is how bad it is that you literally hear about
something being ballroom cats and you think that can't be right.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
We were all skeptical. Yeah, The audition notes, as you recall,
went viral. They were like buster for Jones is non
binary two thousand retweets. I was like, girl, I don't
know how this is gonna go. None of us knew
it was the first production of that brand new theater
at the World Trade Center. It's funded by Bloomberg. We

(43:59):
all thought it was and then the refuse come out
and it's like, wait, I think the headline is Wait,
the Gay Cats is actually good. As though it weren't
gay enough already, we have it in and of the community.
We've got Junior law Beisia as Gus the theater cat.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
She's in Paris a small mirror so rre, I mean
it's fun.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, We've got Queen Jean designing no less than ninety
six costumes for the It's it's a gay ball, so
it's got to be fabulous fashion left and right. Every
character wearing a dozen looks Queen Jean's sketch ninety six.
I think the bitch is gonna win a tony to
be honest. Queen Jean, of course, is the primarily known
as an activist. She does she does a lot of rallies,

(44:42):
she's doing a lot of work for She's doing a
lot of act organizing for Gaza. Right now, oh, a
lot of trans lives matter in twenty twenty was her
ascent into the podium and the microphone. She's also a
costume designer. We've got We've got drag queens who I
know making the wigs for the Jealo Ball. We've got
bartenders at the bar I work at. I saw. I

(45:04):
saw a friend of mine, Garnet Williams understudy Grizabella the
night the first night that I went to Cats, I
saw a close friend of mine that was killing a
stage in New York City, an off Broadway rendering of Cats.
As though it weren't gay enough. Now we have the

(45:25):
added element that they're actually in a ball like Paris
is burning every like, you know, it's kind of nonsensical
the way that Cats goes, because we're just it's a
Cats is a musical that is a musical rendering of
a ts Eliot book of poems that he wrote for
I think God Children or something that are just cat.
They're poems about different cats, different characters, and so it's

(45:48):
kind of nonsensical. Therefore, in the original production of Cats,
we have like sort of like a doesn't make much sense.
They're all vying. We're being introduced to these cats as
though they're all vying for a prize. In this rendering,
every single cat is walking in a category against others,
and they're the one who ends up stealing the trophy. Right,

(46:11):
does it? Does it still sound hokey to you?

Speaker 1 (46:15):
I'm saying, I know it sounds fine. No, It's like
that's what I'm kicking myself for being so cynical going in.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
Me too, But I guess I caught wise. Yeah quickly.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
No, I mean by the time I did, it was
like four hundred dollars tickets.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
Yeah. When when a friend of mine was bullying me
into going, I was like, just so you know, I
will likely hate it, Yeah, and I will be vocal
about that the whole time, as I am like yeah,
and when I see anything, you know, I consider myself
a child of there's an old school affect that we're
going for here. Remember, the gay community is kind of

(46:50):
split on this. I'm someone who believes very much. Friend Liebowitz,
when she says that there is a dearth of connoisseur ship,
you know, that viral her people everyone would taste out
of aids.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
People criticize that, and I'm like, no, she's clearly right.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Like right, actually, yeah, I mean the three of us
would all be gone. We are no.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
More podcasting because of because of AIDS. Oh my god, yes,
but yes, no, you're and you know what, maybe though,
do you think that's related to this theater straight era?

Speaker 3 (47:23):
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (47:24):
I mean that really to bring it back to a
historical perspective, I mean it makes sense, it's up to
us because that's when those people would have come up,
That's when those people would have been, you know, in
their forties fifty sixties, like funding things, making decisions, being
the decision makers in the room, producers.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
I want to talk FACTATIONI yeah, because you're is it
always wicked? No? Okay.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Factasia is a production. It's a it's pay Me the
Grandest Drag Show in Brooklyn happens at three dollars Bill,
one of the grandest spaces, and it is a show
produced and directed and pretty much run by my friend
baby Love, who's a very talented, very gorgeous drag queen
in Brooklyn. She produces a monthly version of it, and

(48:09):
it's a gay drag rendering of any myriad of gay
uh you know, interest topics that she does a lot of.
She does Lord of the rings. She used to do
Harry Potter, she stopped, Well, you know, the JK Rowlings
a Shrek Factasia. It's only a musical rendering when I

(48:34):
am involved and bullying her into mounting it so that
I can play one of the roles that I've always
wanted to play. So it's Wicked when I'm involved, and
or Chicago when I need to be Vela Kelly. Wow,
She's Roxy to my Velma, and she's Glinda to my Alphaba.
And we render the entire original Broadway cast of Wicked

(48:55):
on stage, and we also include this sound board recording
that is, you know, in our generation of musical theater gaze,
it's a heralded MP three to get this recording from
the soundboard of the early San Francisco run, the pre
Broadway run of Wicked. We have a recording of the soundboard,

(49:16):
so we have all of the dialogue recorded in HD,
so we use a lot of that and lip sync
the whole thing. So basically what we're seeing is a
full drag rendering of the original Broadway cast of Wicked.
There are a bunch of fun elements that are like
thrown in there to make it a little more current
and trans She really baby Love really loves fucking with

(49:38):
the material and making the whole thing a highly like
you know, cerebral version rendering of whatever it is. But
I'm someone who likes it very canonical, and I like
to be very by the book. If it were up
to me, it would be completely beginning to end, just
played straight, Yes, played completely straight. Like I'm trying to
be alphable here, I'm trying to take the grail from

(50:01):
the Gershwin Theater for one night. Yeah, be Alpha Ba.
And we even have a fly show. We've even almost
had a no fly show. Are you familiar with the terminology?

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Oh fly? Does that mean? Like in Harness where you're like.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Being oh oh right, at the end of Act one
of Wicked. Famously, Alpha Ba at the end of Defying
Gravity flies up. You know. It might be thirty feet
in a tiny human sized cherry picker with a hydraulic
arm that's like hidden, and so it's giving this illusion
that she's actually flying above the crowd. However, maybe like

(50:34):
point one maybe point two percent of the time, the
safety mechanism that she clicks into in the dark and
the fog and the lights and everything doesn't trip, or
maybe there's like, you know, a new person on the
on the tech board that day or whatever, and she
won't actually fly, and and you know, like the whole

(50:57):
audience their heart starts going there like we paid money
for this. The chorus is directed to sort of like
fall to the ground if it happens, and Alpha but
just walks forward on foot, essentially ruining the entire night.
If you're straight, if you're gay, you are a chosen one.

(51:19):
You're one of the chosen ones who gets to see
a no Fly show. I'm not trying to do all
that at Factasia because we're already lip syncing honey, and
we have one of these we have one of these lifts,
like a cherry picker that's actually for rearranging the club
lights because its the nightclub. Oh so it's this like
hydraulic lift thing that's like, you know, very forky, very clunky,

(51:40):
and not human sized at all. I'm not trying to
mess around with all that, and I'm definitely not trying
for my co stars to be stranded on the floor
like that. I don't know what I would do. We
had a really close call with this last one. We've
done the show four times, turning it into an annual thing.
I think, like an end of summer fun, labor day,
sort of like tradition, you know, like watching Harry Potter,

(52:04):
which apparently that's a Christmas thing. Now, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Is that true Christmas movies?

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, it's it's a. It's a it exists within Christianity,
which is enough. We should have known the JK. Rowling thing.
It's a movie about it's a book about witches and wizards,
and they celebrate Christmas the fun.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Yeah literally, yeah, Okay. I was saying that I've never
seen Wicked and me what has stopped me from going
to effect Asia, which I really want to go to.
Is I want to like first see some version of
Wicked and then get it. But it sounds like I
can just go to Effect here.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with that. I don't know
what kind of shape the show is in right now,
to be honest, I'm sure whoever it is rips. The
most recent time I went to Wicked was right before COVID,
and it was it was a girl named Hannah Corno
who made my top three elbow bus of all times.
She really ripped into it. But I don't know how
she is not. I think the current alphabu's a little

(52:56):
bit mature.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
I seen Chicago many times used in Chicago.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
I mean, I've seen the movie.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
That's good enough. Yeah, the one time I think that
they've gotten it completely right. All movie musicals were leading
up to and or following that one moment. Yeah, Oh,
the one time I think that it got the movie.
The movie has kept that show in its bare bones
form on Broadway that entire time.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
It's so bare bones I did not know. I went
like essentially as a joke when Pamela Anderson did it,
and I could not believe how low production it was.
Like it's just like an empty stage and someone tap dancing. Basically, Oh,
like you think it's going to be the super duper production.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Well, it was originally in ninety six when they mounted
it on Broadway. It was originally just a cheap way
to make a book for the producers because it was
a there's there's a rendering. Uh, there's a there's a
concert series that Broadway does where well they'll they'll just

(53:56):
do a show, any given show as a concert. Look
at Carnegie Hall. Sure it was a mounting of that.
So that's why there's no costumes, no set, none of that.
It was it was like this was so popular, this
concert version of Chicago that were putting her on Broadway.
All it has to last at that point. It didn't
even have to last ten years on Broadway, which is
like nothing to ball yet. But it didn't even have

(54:19):
to last that long before Catherine, Zena Jones and Renee
come in and clean up money for these producers for
the next twenty twenty five however, lost picture. So truly yeah,
Best Picture, Best Supporting Catherine.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Catherine.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
I think they should have put her up for Best
Actress myself, but I think they wanted her to snatch it.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Well they yeah, and Renee was put up for Best Actress,
and Catherine and Queen Latifa were both in the Best
Supporting Actress.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
If you'll recall Dring Catherine's speech, there's somewhat Catherine's like,
oh no, I think it was the best picture in
someone who won an Oscar for Chicago. In their speech,
they're like rattling off the thanks and someone in the
audience at the top of their lungs, and you can
hear it on the stage. Mic Goes and Queen Latifa
and the guy goes right and Queen Latifa, which I'm like,

(55:07):
I don't know, she doesn't have that much screen time,
but damn. At the time that Chicago came out, there
was one of those magazine feature articles, you know, the
magazines where they're like they described at length the way
that the celebrity like comes in to the whatever and
like sets their bag down. It's like you know something

(55:30):
about there.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
The first sentence is like, Renee Zewegger was running late,
but not for the reason you.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Think so in this uh, I like, I knew who
I was gonna like before I even saw the movie.
I knew I was gonna identify with because this interviewer
stacked the way the kind of the way you two
do here, stacked one after the other. At some fucking
Keith McNally restaurant in midtown, Renee and then Catherine. Renee
came in her gym clothes and ordered a side salad,

(55:58):
did the interview politely, and then bowed out. Catherine came
in a leather trench, ordered a filet mignon, which is
more raw than rare, and a glass of champagne like
she was in the T mobile commercial. At that very
moment get remember those.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
A long time, I forgot she is someone. I almost
think she is someone that had so much, that had
so much. Yeah, and I actually think it makes sense
that she is not still out there because it's like
she's actually too fabulous to be like, you know what I.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Mean, I'm actually having this post facto hallucination that it
was Catherine in that movie The Substance the whole time.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Have you seen it?

Speaker 3 (56:51):
I am remembering the entire thing as though that were Katherine, and.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Right, actually that'd be great. I would to say, I'm
so surprised at your theater knowledge. I like, I, you know,
I think of you are such a club girl that
I was like to me, club in theater don't go together,
and I'm like blown away.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
I love country, a real eclectic kind of tran I am.
But yeah, I mean I was at the I was
singing Defying Gravity in my free period in high school.
So it just kind of stuck. And I'm still you know,
I'm excited about this a Dena musical that's gonna be iffy.
I'm excited about Shshana Bean replacing her, replacing her. What

(57:34):
do I think about the Audrey Gypsy? I do think
that it is a harbinger of things moving in the
right direction. Like I'm saying, I think I think we're
moving back towards a gay area era of Broadway. But
I'm not sure about the casting choice. I mean, we've
seen in our lifetime a perfect rendering of Gypsy with

(57:56):
Patti Lapone as Mama Rose and Laura Bananty I'm Louise.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
But the Tony's performance of that is like I would say,
life like, it's just crazy. Like it's like, if you
want to show someone this is what acting is, you
show them that. But it's also becau. Laura Bananty like
has to be on stage just to deliver one line.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
Right, is it? I thought you did it for me? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
And then and then Patty's like, anyway, just starts doing
this song.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Yeah, she got hers. I think it was a Tony
maybe not for that. Maybe it was my fair Lady.
I don't know, maybe it was she does.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Okay, what property would you like to see it as
a musical? That's a really tough question, show girls. That's
so obvious, you know.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
But it's it's a harbinger of things moving in the
right direction. Girl, we have water for Elephants on Broadway.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Whoa, and it's doing well.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Not to hate on it, because I was actually and
this is further proof that theaters first eight people. I
was in my first off off Broadway show in the spring,
a short run during Pride at the Tank and.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Ale. Did you see that?

Speaker 3 (59:10):
I didn't? I didn't. It was it was actually my
my first time in the theater. My character's name was
on the marquee and the whole lobby had been turned
into my character's lair. So I helped myself to the
booze the whole time one was going. But I was

(59:31):
in the production with If You Will Believe Me, an
actual card carrying heterosexual couple playing a real life heterosexual
couple in the play. I didn't think when I met
when I met this, I met these two and I
was like, Okay, this is obviously the the the fim
in the relationships. I call her Downtown Nicole Kidman. She's

(59:54):
got that sort of like, you know, everything she says
sort of has a flourish and like she's always like gasping,
very reactive to anything that said. So I'm like, this
dude is sort of has got to be like I
don't know her like gay best friend or whatever, and
they're just playing it. And as time goes on, I'm

(01:00:15):
seeing him bringing crunch rap supremes to rehearsals. I was like, Oh,
my fucking god, think about this.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
How when we were younger, everyone who wanted to be
an actor was gay, and then suddenly you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Get older, something happens. Everyone who's an actor is straight.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
You're looking around there and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
The gays fall off and become drag queen.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Yes. Yeah, total, it's so confusing or.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
It actually so traumatic that they fall off and become
like consultants, like they don't.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
I was wrong to express my yes, like there's actually
fall off and become comedians. There's much there's more money
in drag and comedy clubs probably.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
The work that you're putting in the time that you're
putting in for theater, holy shit. I've never had an
experience that quite snapped into perspective. How lucky I am
to go on at five am? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Yeah, yeah, I mean to perform like eight times a week,
like an hour plus two hour show or whatever nightmare
I would.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
I would if it's eight times a week, you got
that equity minimum, which is probably what that's what's what
it's going to take for me to go back into
the theater. I think, yeah, you and Patty.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
The only theater that I that I liked, like as
a youth was West Side Story. I was really like,
I want to be one of those dancing little boys.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
I think.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
What was like the theater? You know, to quote our friends,
that the theater that made me say theaters for you, yeah,
you know, not to bring it back to Greece as
I always do, and it can't believe it's been this
long since they have. But you know, in Greece you
can go to the ancient Greek theater like it was

(01:01:58):
like ancient Greek theater that's like still standing from ancient
Greek times and see a production of a Greek tragedy
Jones there. Yes, No, they also do the concerts. Yeah,
talk about a Greek tragedy and and there is something
about that that like felt like this is transcending reality
in some way. Ademic Yeah, but then I'm like trying

(01:02:22):
to think of it's not you know, honestly, if I'm
being honest, it was right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
I watched it over and over when I.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Was in high school and I had no one had
talked about it and the movie. The movie, which I
know the real theater people think is bad.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
I don't know the time a Broadway cast and they're like,
well but they are forty So yeah, but there's some
there's some charm in that, for.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Yes, So I think that was definitely a big part
of it. And then I do think it was a
lot of like clips of Tony's performance because I wasn't
living in New York, so it's like like that Patty performance,
I like, I I know it very well, or oh god,
there was like some open some Tony's opening number. One
year it was the year of Hair with Rip Gavin Creole,

(01:03:07):
Like there was a that was like a big it
just I was like, wow, Like to be in New York,
you can like see this day to day that you
come to Europe and legally Belonde the musical.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Yeah, did you catch that production of Hair?

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
I've never seen Hair. I've never seen Hair.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
When how did you connect with theater?

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
I was in a production of Cabaret Oh as an
eighth grader. Wow, which was my high school was eight
eight through twelve. So it was a big scandal that
an eighth grader had made the cast, and so I
felt like it was somewhat ordained at that point, and

(01:03:47):
I became obsessed with the music. Were you said Cabaret?
Was I sally believe it or not. I was not
eligible to play female roles at the time.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
I literally did not even think of it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
No, I I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
And it didn't even occur to me.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
It was a very progressive school in Alabama.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
You know, by the way I'm seeing, I nabbed free
tickets as the Adam Lambert in Cabaret. What do you
think of that?

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
I think that you're gonna have a great time?

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Is that a push towards.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
I think so? I would rather see Adam Lambert. And
it's just like this rendering. See, this is a this
is uh. This is further proof of things moving in
the right direction. That we have replaced Adam Lambert. We've
replaced Eddie with Adam Lambert because the Eddie interpretation of
that character. I got to say, there's two ways to
play Cabaret. There is the way in which we are

(01:04:50):
very obviously entering the Third Reich in Germany, things are
macabre and dark. There is also the way to play
it we're in Everything is fabulous and gay, despite, yes,
the darkness looming outside the kit Kat Club.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Which in fact makes it more dark because you're so
aware of.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
Exactly or exactly yes, because you have nuanced because you're gay. However,
Eddie Redmain is up on, facing a camera straight on,
doing a little swastika with his arms. I'm like, girl,
I do not need all of this in my life.
Oh my god, I don't need it in my life.
We're in too difficult a time perically.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
And we don't need you making a swastika.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
No, I want Adam Lambert throwing glitter into the air
and being fabulous and saying everything is bingiful despite the
fact that we're entering the end of civilization.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Yeah, that's a movie you should watch, because that is
a movie that, like you think, I don't know, You're like, oh,
how good can it be? It's literally a master It's
like who plays Manelli? Oh yeah, okay, fun anyway, okay, surely.
In any final thoughts on theater as straight culture, I.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Think we've covered quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
I would have to almost one.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Wow, okay, well there's a closing segment, Yes, that segment.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Which and we always make them up on the spot,
and I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Have one, but okay, I've got one. Our final segment
is called shout Outs, and in this segment we pay
homage to the grand oral straight tradition of the radio
shout out, so you can give a shout out to
anything that you enjoy, people, places, things, ideas. Imagine two
thousand and one, you're at TRL shouting out to your
squad back home about anything you like. And I have

(01:06:43):
one that I don't think I talked about it when
we record the other day, and if I did, choke
me to death. Okay, what's up freak soss and perverts
around the globe. I want to give a huge shout
out to shaving with a traditional razor and shaving cream.
I have never done this in my life. I don't

(01:07:03):
really know how to shave someone. My dad gave me
an electrical razor when I was you know, of age
and said figure this out. And I said, okay, I
think I can figure this out. Sort of sort of
did a half assed job, sort of made that my
identity that I sort of just have scruff at given
times and sort of am roughing it. I forgot to
bring this with me I said, what do I do

(01:07:24):
when I'm in I need to shave because now it's
looking bad. And I was like, I guess I can
just buy a razor and figure it out. And I
called my boyfriend. I say, how do you do it?
And apparently it's he new, he knew, and it's so
easy and you just put stuff on it and you
go ahead and scrape it. Sorry you and I and

(01:07:46):
before you get into it, even the performance of it,
I want to say, you know, I dress. We've talked
about how I wear. I'm going Americana. I am reappropriating
masculinity to get hard. And I got a little hard
and it was so hot, and I was like, this
is amazing. I look like a dad from a commercial.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
That's actually shaved face you can still smell.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
I was like, no, that's crazy. Yes, well lock me
up and throw away the key. So that's my shout out. Wow. Yeah,
I just use a little electric one.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
I mean sure, but but even once you've never once
used one, that's so funny. I mean even like when
you were first like going through pubery and have a
little mustache, like even then you used.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
I just like let it like I was like, maybe, no,
one notices.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
How traumatizing was that? God? That starting and be like
when is the when do the scales tip? When do
I start? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
That and then that's when like one Christmas, Dad was
like you should use this and give.

Speaker 3 (01:08:48):
Me like some electric razor Christmas. Huh Christmas touch.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
And I was like, a shame.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
This is like your version of like me never learning
to drive. Like it's like it's like something that everyone
did when they were younger. But when he gets too
late and you're like, oh God, like I'm in my thirties.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Did you have to be taught or did you just
like wing it?

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
I don't remember exactly, but it is sort of just
like exactly what you think it's gonna be.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Yeah, but I was like, maybe there's a nuance to it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
There is. You don't look like a dumped her chin
and ab no death.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Very true. Okay, I have one what's up freaks and losers.
I want to give a shout out to Ellen DeGeneres.
I sat down and I watched Ellen's new special. Okay,
and when I tell you, you know I it starts
out with this like montage of her career highlights and
you're like, I cannot believe this is happening. They're literally
doing a montage of for career highlights that are projected

(01:09:38):
on walls, and she's walking through a tunnel of her
tunnel of hits and she's going to the stage. Then
she talks about being canceled, and every single line she
says gets a standing ovation. I've never seen anything like this,
and despite it all, I'm laughing you liked it. I
would not say I thought it was like excellent. But

(01:09:58):
you know, when she's in her element, doing airplane jokes,
doing jokes about like, oh, why are you okay? Can
you you can't? Doing jokes about aging, doing jokes about
being Ellen, You're like, you know, there's a reason you're
Ellen and I don't can. It's definitely still clean, but
then you know why it's so it's clean. So then
when she does drop an F bomb, it's fun because

(01:10:19):
you're like not expecting it. She's edging, she's edging you.
She comes out as having a billion different illnesses. She's like,
I have ADHD, I have OCD, I have She says,
I used to think that O and OCD used to
for organized I was just like you know what, like
go throw, throw, throw, stuff at your employees. Why not?

(01:10:42):
Why not have one life? So shout out to Ellen.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Who Okay, Charlie whenever you are ready.

Speaker 3 (01:10:50):
What's up freaks and losers? Charlene here, I want to
give a big shout out to country music. Wo harold
it often as great thing, but there are gay cracks
in the firmament. I was just listening to gay radio
and reminded of none other than Travis Tritt, famous Southern

(01:11:14):
closet case country singer, singer of the classic who Could Forget?
I got rast cooking in the Maco way, which you'll
only recall if you're a Southern girl like me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Perhaps, I mean, I'm gonna spotify it soon, honey.

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
This queen is fabulous. On the album cover, she is
sitting cross legged with her hands folded around her knees
and a huge smile like she just took a dick
up the butt. She in twenty twenty was very do
you know, all gay, all gay country venn diagram crossover.
People know this about this queen, that she's like a flamer.

(01:11:54):
Someone ran her face through the dragonator filter or like whatever.
She shared it on Twitter and said, this is another
more proof of the lies. Of the Left. Someone just
ran her face through a drag filter and said that,
like Travis strahadun drag or whatever, and she's like more

(01:12:14):
proof of the lies of the left. Well, this queen
is so utterly deep in the closet and it's mandated
by her profession. Even though we've got Casey Musgraves and
like people like I don't know what's that girl's name,
Marion Morris, Yes, casually casually beckoning the younger generational gaze

(01:12:36):
towards them, we've got We've got Garth Brooks and Trisha
Yearwood from our generation married to each other. A bull
and a fairy. Seriously, Garth Brooks, I think Garth Brooks.
Garth Brooks is a card carrying cocksucker, and any secon

(01:13:00):
any further delving into his discography and or music videos
especially will reveal that to you he has a whole
album as a drag character Chris Games total who has
a flavor saver and a whole different sound and dyed
black hair. That's a whole and that is Garth Brooks.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
I actually I had no idea.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
Tricia Yearwood, his wife, actually came close to outing him
on stage recently saying something cheeky like if I hadn't
met this man who I'm sharing the stage with, I'd
probably be you know, in the arms of some tractor
driving like I don't know, dude, and he probably would too.

(01:13:53):
I was like, whoa, we're just being out that Maren
Morris has has had to go with these two, to
go with these two, but the links that these people
go to just say straight. I'm like, why can't you
just be like what is literally is literally gay? I
know it, I know absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
It almost goes full circle where like you're doing you're
doing drag as a straight mane that is gayer than
being you know, uh, what's that straight? Luke Evans, you
know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
Controversial? It was when he agreed to play at Biden's anoguration. Yeah,
I'm just saying, I mean, like, it's not it's not
completely out of character, it's not completely out of the question.
We've already established that eight or nine out of every
ten men are gay. I mean that's in the first place.
You can look at the boots on a male country singer.

(01:14:41):
It's like, if the boot is like completely showing and
nice and polished, you've got to bag it on your hands.
If there's like if like covered and caked and hit
and mud like. George straight A is a country star
from our up from our upbringing. Who I believe? Who
actually believe? I saw him with Martina McBride when I
was in junior high and he had shit caked onto

(01:15:03):
his boots. I was like that motherfucker seriously.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Wow, wow, Wow, that was groundbreaking.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
One of the most substantial shadows you've ever had on
this po.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
Yes it it is Shirley, and I have to.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
Say this has been one of the greatest episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):
Yes, thank you so much for doing the pot. We
really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Having me back what we will and we'll have you
do a live show if you're up for it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Up for it, baby lives what I do much much
later at night?

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
All right? Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
Oh wait, and Charlie, do you want to say where
people can see you? Anything you want to promote anything
like that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Yeah, there's shit going on all the time. I'm a
local hero. God damn it. Period. It's come to a
drag bar in Brooklyn. If you don't see me, I'm
asleep that night.

Speaker 4 (01:15:51):
All right, Okay, bye ni podcast and now want more
subscribe to our Patreon for two extra episodes a month,
discord access and more by heading to patreon dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
Slash Stradio Lab.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
And for all our visual earners, free full length video
episodes are available on our YouTube now. Get Back to Work.
Stradia Lab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money
Players Network and iHeart Podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
Created and hosted by George Severis and Sam Taggart.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
Executive produced by Will Ferrell, Hans Sony and Olivia Aguilar.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
Co produced by by Wang, edited.

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
And engineered by Adam Avalos.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
Artwork by Michael Failes and Matt Grobb.

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
Theme music by Ben Kling