April 3, 2025 • 29 mins
Brent Lang, Variety's executive editor overseeing film and media coverage, shares his observations about this year's CinemaCon gathering of movie theater owners and Hollywood studios. The tension is palpable as the sector is struggling to return to its pre-pandemic heights. He also weighs in on the story of the moment — the fate of Michael De Luca and Pam Abdy as leaders of Warner Bros. Pictures. And Pat Saperstein, Variety's deputy editor of film, details her recent list of the 21 Coolest Movie Theaters in the World.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Strictly Business. I'm Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in
chief of Variety. Today my guest is Variety's own Brent Lang,
our executive editor who oversees all film and media coverage.
Brent and several other reporters have been in Las Vegas
this week for the annual CinemaCon gathering of movie studios
and exhibitors. It's a fraught time for the film business,
(00:30):
as Variety readers well known. Brent shares his observations about
the mood and the palpable tension between studios and theater
owners at a time when everyone's margins are under extreme pressure,
and we talk about some hot topics of the moment,
including the fate of Michael de Luca and Pam Abdey
(00:50):
as the leaders of Warner Brothers Pictures. As a little
end credits bonus, I talked to Pat Sapristein, Variety's Deputy
editor of Film about her recent report on the twenty
one coolest movie theaters in the World. That's all coming
up after this break, and we're back with on the
(01:24):
ground reporting from CinemaCon. Brent Lang, executive editor a Variety
based in New York, but the last three days, you
have been in Sin City in Las Vegas for the
Annual Cinema You've been in Las Vegas for the annual
Cinema con convention that brings together movie studios with their
favorite exhibitors exhibition chains from around the world to talk
(01:48):
about new product and show off their wares. Obviously, you're
heading into summer box office season. Tell me, I know
it's not completely done, but you've seen a bunch of presentations.
What's so far has really stood out to you? What's
impressed you?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I think what's impressed me the most is that
this is usually a very celebratory affair where people studios
get on stage and they talk about the magic of
the movie going experience and how vital theaters are to
the whole ecosystem. And they are certainly doing that, but
there's a much more tension than there has been in
past years. And I think some of that is because
(02:25):
twenty twenty five was supposed to marco real turnaround for
the theatrical business, and instead the first three months of
the year have been really very poor, very sluggish. Films
like Snow White and Mickey seventeen have flopped at the
box office, and so the exhibition community is feeling less
excited than they maybe have in the past. And as
(02:48):
part of that, the head of a group called Cinema United,
which is the main lobbying group for the exhibition industry.
It used to be called NATO, but they wisely changed
the name a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Ago that NATO and the other NATO are both. These
are trying times for both organizations.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And apparently they were getting male's mail for the other
NATO and death threats and all kinds of things. So
it was a real disaster. But the head, Michael O'Leary,
used his time on stage to kind of throw down
the gauntlet on a couple of issues that haven't been
fully resolved. And the major one is windowing, which is
(03:27):
you know when a film how on it is in
playing in theaters exclusively. Way back when it used to
be that they had to play exclusively in theaters for
ninety days. But during the pandemic, studios which always wanted
to shorten that length of time so they could get
into the home entertainment and downstream revenue a lot quicker,
were able to negotiate with the theater chains to get
(03:49):
it down to about as low as seventeen days. And
the theater owners really hate this. They think that they're
leaving money on the table. They think that it's gotten
people accustomed to wait to see movies in the home
and that they aren't going out as much. And O'Leary
used a bunch of data to indicate that in areas
(04:09):
and countries where the windows are longer, the box office
has been stronger, particularly for films that aren't like Barbie
or Oppenheimer or Inside Out, to those kind of like
mid tier films. And so what you're hearing is that
people want that window to go up. At AMC, which
is the largest exhibition chain, has publicly said they'd like
(04:31):
that window to return to about sixty days. The theater
owners I talked to wanted to be about forty five days.
So there's already a negotiation. But the studios feel like,
well this is result. So I think that's a source
of major tension. And it's kind of changed the atmosphere here,
the tone of the convention, and I think it's it's
(04:52):
become a little bit more of like us and them,
and that's not usually the spirit of CinemaCon. And even
like you'll have like Leonardo DiCaprio come on stage to
plug a movie or something like that. In the past,
theater owners were euphoric and they were kind of like
politely applauding. It was a very different tone, and I
think you just have a sense of tension and nervousness
(05:13):
and anxiety about the state of this business.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It seems like in this moment, now, this isn't everything
everywhere all at once for media moment, and movie theaters
are very much a bastion of this is the ultimate exclusivity.
You literally have to leave your home and go to
see you know, elect to go to this theater to
see this movie. And that's very you know, and they
want to preserve exclusivity and expand it back to where
(05:39):
it once was. And that seems, you know, very much
out of step with how consumers, especially as we know
younger consumers expect to have things, They expect to have
everything's at their fingertips. Same time, you can, certainly there's
been a lot of evidence you can making the case
that like the marketing that goes into a theatrical release
pays dividends down the road. So very interesting things we've
(06:02):
been covering for a while. Let me ask you about O'Leary.
This is, if I'm not mistaken, this would be his
second CinemaCon in charge. He had some big, fit big
he had some big shoes to fill in John Fithian,
who was a warrior for the exhibition business for a
very long time, always colorful, never you know, never shy
(06:22):
about advocating for his folks. How is how does O'Leary
compare to the to the you know, the tall shadow
of John Fithian.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You know, it's interesting. I you know, I've known John
for many years, so it's it's very different, and stylistically
they're very different. And I think what was surprising is
I thought that O'Leary initially seemed much more conciliatory and
John Fithian was was a little more willing to kind
of get into the to the monk and to really
(06:53):
to play hardball if he needed to for his members,
And I sort of didn't get that sense from O'Leary,
but I thought his speech was pretty pointed, and that
to me indicates that his members, his clients, if you will,
are really urging him, like we need a fighter on
our side here. And I think that shows just how
(07:13):
dire the situation is for theaters. We had a story
going into CinemaCon that I don't even know if this
number had really been out there, but during from twenty
nineteen to today, they've lost fifty seven hundred screens in
the United States, which is a huge number of screens
to kind of go out of commission. And I think
the other problem is the business model isn't quite working
(07:37):
right now. You have the studios that are only doing
a few films. They're doing fewer films than they ever
did before, and the movies they want to make are
these blockbuster franchise films, which the theaters absolutely want, but
that means they're making about nine to on the higher end,
twelve movies a year. And you know, in the heyday
in the nineteen nineties, they would make forty movies a year,
(07:59):
forty five movies a year, and the independent community is
not filling in that gap either, So there just aren't
enough movies to fill in these screens. And although ticket
sales are split between the studio and the theater chain, the
theater chain makes most of their money on concessions because
they're able to upsell popcorn and soda, so they don't
(08:21):
really they just need enough product on their screens, and
they feel like there's a whole bunch of audience, particularly
the older audience, that isn't being served, so they want
a lot more of those kind of mid budget movies.
The economics don't make any sense for the studios because
the downstream revenue, the cable, the streaming, all of those
other kinds of licensing revenue isn't as robust as it
(08:42):
once was, so it doesn't support the kinds of budgets
that they it used to do. So I think what
you're having is kind of this perfect storm of these
different business models that are kind of being constructed, and
nobody really knows how to solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Right now, and the presence of so many streamers out
there that are hungry for content is it's pretty compelling
to like, I'm going to get one. I'm going to
get one check for a certain amount of time, versus
rolling the dice on all the P and A and
everything that would go into a theatrical release. Back real
quick to the windows, I wanted to ask you, is
there apropos of that mid budget movie? Is there any
(09:19):
do you think is there any possibility of like a
variable window. You know, your superhero movie gets a longer,
longer time to keep you know, to keep keep the
coming in, hoping for that great repeat viewing. But a
mid budget and adult drama is a more you know,
more of that seventeen day, twenty ish day. Do you
see any of that being potential?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I think you will stay more of that, actually, I think,
I mean there already is some concessions within these the
prior agreements, and these are annual agreements actually, just to
clarify at least with the major chains that if a
film dips between behind beneath it a certain box office result,
(10:03):
it could go on demand quicker. I think that you'll
have more of that. But I think it's just enormous
frustration with how the studios are kind of negotiating with
the movie theaters. There was even O'Leary made a point
that I thought was interesting, which he said that the
theaters need to have more freedom to pick when they
(10:25):
show films and how they show films. He was saying, like,
if you have a family film contractually now, if you
want to play a Disney movie or something like that
that's aimed at kids, you have to have ten PDM showings. Well,
he was saying, nobody who has kids is going to
see a ten pm showing, so they want more flexibility
with how they schedule these films. It just it feels
(10:48):
like they're kind of at loggerheads right now. I don't
really know how it'll be resolved, and yet.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
The studios aren't coming from the strongest place of negotiating either.
It'll be interesting to see how much, how much play,
how much elasticity there is in these kind of negotiations,
and who is you know, who's innovative, who comes up
with that solution that everybody can live with or people
hate less than the other solution. Let me ask you
(11:15):
a little more specifically about the presentations. Obviously you've seen
some big ones Warner Brothers, Sony, lions Gate. I believe
what anything on the product that was bally Hood on
the stage, there anything really stand out to you.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I mean, there were certainly some things that looked good.
I think one thing that was interesting is that in
the past the studios have pretty much stuck to the year,
the calendar year when they reveal their films. But they
don't have as many films, so they're actually going out
as far as like twenty twenty eight, which when Sony
was talking about the Beatles movie, the four movies that
they're going to release simultaneously, which by the way, theater
(11:53):
owners are over the moon for they're so excited about this.
I think it's a cool event. That it's going to
get people out of their houses is totally unique. They're
totally on board with that. But you see people kind
of dipping into twenty six, twenty seven and beyond to
kind of pat out their slate. I thought that people
were excited about the Spider Verse coming back, and I
(12:13):
think twenty seven they seem, you know, they're thrilled about
another Spider Man that does big business for them. Some
of the Lionsgate movies that John Wick films, theater owners
are really excited about that. Warner Brothers was the most interesting,
and that's the studio that has faced a lot of scrutiny.
There's a lot of speculation that Pam Abdy and Mike
de Luca are in the hot seat right now that
(12:34):
they've spent a lot of money on risky, more artistic films.
And you could feel the tension on the stage and
they made the point at several points of saying, you know,
we believe in original films, we believe in original, bold visions,
and that was on display. To their credit, they gave
Paul Thomas Anderson, I think, one hundred and thirty million
(12:55):
dollars to do a movie with Leonardo DiCaprio that I
thought looked really cool, but I don't know what its
commercial prospects are. In Maggie Jillenhall, guess.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
What's the title of the Leo movie.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
It's called on One Battle after Another, and it definitely
looks fun to me, but I just don't know, you know,
if it'll be kind of a four quadrant type of movie.
Then there's this kind of punk rock Bride of Frankenstein
from Maggie Jillenhall that I thought looked pretty cool too,
But I think some of the theater owners I spoke to
(13:27):
seem to think that that looked pretty risky. I will
say Superman. The theater owners are very excited about Superman.
They're excited. They feel like James Gunn has kind of
found a way to make this hero appeal to modern audiences.
There's a cute super dog that seemed to play really
well too.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Don't go anywhere, We'll be right back with more CinemaCon
observations from Variety. Sprentline and we're back with more reportage
from CinemaCon with Varieties Brent Lang. It does sound like, though,
that the sort of marketplace once again is rewarding innovation.
(14:07):
The plan Sam Mendes's plan for the four Beatle biopic
movies is different. It's a more elaborate construction of movies
over a period of years. We've seen people try that
in the past. It's rarely been executed, rarely worked, but
certainly it sounds like they're really going into it. And
Sam Mendez is an incredible filmmaker. And I just got
(14:28):
to say, Barry Cogan as Ringo, that's genius. He's already
got the hair. That's you know. I've been there with
seeing television network upfronts that were led by executives that
everybody kind of knew was we're not going to be
there by the time most of those shows premiered, and
that is all that is. It's almost an uncomfortable situation
(14:50):
for everybody in the Let me just ask you bluntly,
do you think do you think the writing is on
the wall for de Luke and Abdey or do you
think they still have a shot to turn this around.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I think they have a very limited shot, but I
would be shocked if they're still in this position within
a year. And I think even if you look at
the way when your brother's discovery is handled, the kind
of stories about them, there was some quote that Robert
Gibbs had that was basically something like nothing is imminent,
which is not a huge endorsement. And you know, I
(15:25):
respect both Mike de Luca and PM Abdy and I
think they're very creative, talented people, but I think what
they were trying to do might just have been too risky.
It's great to be bold artistically, but it's pretty smart
to be conservative financially when you take those kinds of risk,
and it seems like they forgot the second part of that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
This time last year, I sat with Peter Kujowski a
Focus Features and we had a great conversation in advance
of Cinema con and he really at that time was
really emphasising we don't talk enough about the communal experience
of moviegoing, the magic, the romance of movie going. We
all know the Nicole Kidman spot that runs at the
(16:07):
AMC theaters, but did you hear on the studio side,
did you hear much have you heard so far, like
you know, calls to supporting that idea that the industry
itself needs to support the idea of movie going as
a special, as a destination, as an event.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well, I think one thing that I've heard consistently from studios,
and they certainly didn't say this on the stage, but
is that the theaters need to do more to innovate too,
that they need to have facilities that are clean, that
are inviting, that they need to do more in terms
of kind of educating their staff to be a little
more civil. I suppose one person said that the thing
(16:48):
that they could do the best is have clean bathrooms,
and as a person who lives in New York, that
is something that they really should invest in.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
It thumbs up from this moviegoer, Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
But I think a big problem they've had, and O'Leary
has said this to me too, is that the financial
markets are really down on the movie going experience. So
that's created a real capital crunch all down the line,
not just AMC but your local movie theater. If they
want to invest in recliners and kind of a more
(17:18):
luxury experience. If they go to their local bank to
get alone, that bank is looking at sort of how
the sector is performing, and it's going to be harder
for them to get money. So what really needs to
happen is kind of a chicken and egg thing. I mean,
the narrative around this needs to change or they're not
going to have access to the kind of capital they
need to do their kind of innovations that I think
(17:38):
everybody understands they need to do.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
One another, you know, from the Cinema con stage. Another
really bold proposal that was put forth by MPa chief
Charles Rifkin was he said, flat out, we need federal
production tax incentives, which is interesting. I've never I can't
remember somebody saying that boldly, you know, in such a
prominent spot. And of course, as we know, the federal
(18:04):
government is going through a lot, the federal going federal
government is going through its own massive restructuring right now.
Did you get a sense of what the reaction to
that was. I would imagine that there'd be a lot
of support, but were people talking about the real politique
of actually making that happen in this environment?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I mean, I think, you know, good luck to him
on that. I don't see that happening. I just it
doesn't seem like that's what's in the air at the moment.
That said that, the president is a very transactional person,
and I ask studio people about this, and they don't
think this is a possibility. But you know, if they
(18:44):
really did have a bunch of big stars come and
suck up to Trump, I mean, maybe that would move
the needle. But it just seems like the creative community
would never do that, would absolutely refuse to do that.
So I just think, you know, with this administration, with
what's going on with the economy, I think a federal
incentive is going to be a hard thing to make happen.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I think, you know, just there's always the essential conflict
that you even have in California between the people in
Sacramento and the people in La. To a lot of
people outside the industry, it feels like give money to
Hollywood what That could be a hard sell. But I'm
sure Trump will put John Voight, Sylvester Stallone, and Meil
Gibson right on it as soon as as soon as
(19:27):
we're done here, excuse me. There were a couple of
stories that broke while as always when you're covering these things,
there are a couple of big stories that broke. Was
there much buzz about the word surfaced about a potential
Cliff Booth movie, the character from Once upon a Time
in Hollywood, you know, having a whole other adventure that
(19:48):
would not be from Tarantino directly, but of course Tarantino
blessed was at the talk of the town yes to
the talk of the show yesterday.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I went to a dinner that Fendango had with a
bunch of reporters, and it was certainly the talk of
that dinner. People excited about that, about the Tarantino script Fincher,
you know, people love Fincher. I mean I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right, involving a little guy named not Quentin Tarantino, but
David Fincher. Yoh yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So I mean that was a big That was a
big story.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I will say that was my favorite character from the movie.
So so go forth with Cliff Booth. I say, also,
obviously some sad news overnight the Val Kilmer left us.
I would imagine, you know, he really you forget that
you look back. I mean he really starting kind of
late eighties nineties, really had quite a run there as
a leading man.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Absolutely really an incredible actor. It's still kind of amazing
to me that he wasn't nominated for an Oscar for
the Doors because that's just an amazing performance that he gave.
And as Doc Holliday and Tombstone, and he was such
a chameleon. I know, he was an eccentric and that
rubbed people the wrung way at times, and I think
caused submissions for him throughout his career. But you know,
(21:00):
then you kind of look back at the totality of
what somebody contributes and it's really impressive. I mean, he
was able to move kind of seamlessly between kind of artsy,
more challenging stuff and to also be, like, you know,
to play Batman, so he could do.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
It all exactly. I'll say my last question for you,
there's there's a there's a trade show aspect to cinema
con and it's always fun to walk around. Was there
anything in the whether the concessions or gizmos and gadgets
that people are trying to sell to theater owners, anything
anything fun that stood out to you.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I haven't made my way up there quite yet. I'm
still recovering from when I did a little forty X
demonstration a couple of years ago, which I almost lost
my lunch, So I think, I don't know take it.
I'll definitely go on an empty stomach. But it is
always amazing to see like what they're trying to sell theaters,
(21:54):
the different technologies and the food items are in particular
really interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah all right, well, I'm sure you'll have on perusing
that later. Brent Lang, thank you so much for taking
the time. It's been really a great We feel like
we've been on the ground at CinemaCon with you. From Brent,
we learned that clean bathrooms are a baseline requirement for
movie theaters these days. But what makes a movie theater special?
What makes a venue rise to the status of movie palace.
(22:21):
Pat Sapristin dove into this for her recent story highlighting
the twenty one coolest movie theaters in the World. You
can find it on Variety dot Com here. She explains
how she compiled her list.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Well, what prompted me to do this was just looking
at a lot of beautiful historic theaters and really feeling
like I wanted to spotlight the fact that some of
these have been preserved for over one hundred years in
such a beautiful state. But then as I started looking around,
I realized that it's not just beautiful theaters that are
(22:54):
interesting to talk about. It's also some of the ones
that have state of the art technology, or dable modern architecture,
or just really great programming that draws a really tight
community of film lovers to their particular community. And then
in some cases it's also great dining options that draws
a lot of patrons. So I looked at a lot
(23:16):
of different factors, and many of them are indeed the
most beautiful, but some are also the most historic in
other ways. Besides just the building itself.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Movie theaters are public spaces. They're part of the public square,
and I feel that every single time I go to
a theater, I always think, like, I love this communal experience.
But it would you say that at a time when
movies are definitely under pressure, the whole movie going experience
has changed radically, and people are talking about, you know,
(23:46):
will movie theaters endure for another twenty thirty forty years.
It sounds like there's a sense that there's a real
potential to foster community. A movie theater can be that
public square place again.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yes, that's that's why I really wanted to highlight a
couple of places that are so important to their communities,
like the Music Box Theater in Chicago, the Nighthawk in Brooklyn,
Cinema in downtown Reikievik, Iceland. That's the only place where
you can see foreign films or art house films in
the city of Reikievik itself. And all of these places
(24:22):
draw people not just to the theater, but to film festivals,
to the cafe, to all kinds of community events. The
one in Iceland even has children's birthday parties in the
lobby during the day when it's not being used as
much for movies. So I think we're seeing that they
can be great community spaces for a number of reasons.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And let's talk about the food, because obviously that has
become the luck luxing up of theaters has become a
big deal. The improving of the improvement of the food.
It's not those horrendous nachos with something that looked like
cheese and bad canned Hall of pen was on top
of them. Is At the same time, though as long
(25:04):
as as at least for ten to fifteen years, we've
been writing about the increase of these kinds of amenities
and luxuries in theaters in the big picture, is that
making a difference.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I think it really is making a difference. Maybe not
in sort of the suburban mall cinemas quite as much,
but especially in urban areas, it really creates a sense
of community when you can get a drink ahead of time,
or you can order food into the theater. It's become
a really popular thing in lots and lots of theaters,
(25:36):
and a lot of them have really distinctive cocktail programs
where so many of them name cocktails after the names
of favorite films or favorite characters, which was really fun.
And then others have real signature items. And in fact
I looked all over the world for these theaters and
one of the ones I spotlighted was at the mall
(25:57):
of Dubai, the real cinemas of Do Buy. They partnered
with Guy Fieri to do the food for their restaurant.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I do know from our coverage, our fantastic exhibition coverage,
from our fantastic Box office reporter Rebecca Rubin that these
high end things do our big margin for businesses that
are surviving on smaller and smaller margins. So if the
margin on a Fela Mignon is higher than a hot dog,
a Fela Mignon steak is higher than a hot dog,
then that's then And if it brings people in for
(26:28):
that experience, then I guess it is clearly more and
more people are going that way. Would you say Alamo
Draft House was kind of the forerunner here where their
embrace of beer and movies. Was that something that kind
of do you think set a path for this current
wave of sort of luxury movie going.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
They were, for sure, and I think they were also
one of the early ones to realize that the food
has to be, you know, decent food. Like you said,
you can't just give people any old thing and charge
your premium price for it. And the ability to be
able to get a beer inside movie theaters, you know,
it still seems kind of novel and fun to me
(27:06):
that you can do that in so many places now.
And in fact, the Nighthawks Cinema in Brooklyn, they were
the ones who overturned the law in the state of
New York you could not have alcohol in a movie
theater until they really got going and managed to overturn
that law. And now you have an Alamo also in
New York.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
What would you say is the most out of the
way theater, like the hardest to get to or you know,
from the US, What would be the most sort of
remote theater that is on the list?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Well, the one in Dubai is certainly a far piece,
but I also wanted to spotlight this one in La
biotat France, which is on the French Riviera, so it's
not terribly far from the can Film Festival, but it
isn't a very small remote town. And that was where
the Lumier brothers lived and if you recall, they kind
(27:59):
of start movies and so they had the first public
movie screening at the Eden Theater in eighteen ninety five,
and the theater is still standing. You can still go
see an art house movie there, and it's just kind
of amazing that they have some of their old projection
equipment made out of wood boxes and you can still
(28:20):
see a theater where they you can still see a
movie in a theater where they showed the first movie
in eighteen ninety five, and I think that's very cool,
and I don't think very many people are familiar with
the Eden Theater, but it's pretty historic.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
We've grew up in the film business, You've traveled the
world for Variety. What's your favorite theater?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Wow, I'm just going to go with a hometown selection
of the Vista in silver Lake, which is now owned
by Quentin Tarantino, and he, you know, he brought it
back and remodeled it, and we just really appreciate that
it's still a great place for film lovers and really
cool looking inside as well.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
We need nice things in la. Thank you, Pat, thanks
for your time, Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave
us a review at Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. We
love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot
com to sign up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter,
and don't forget to tune in next week for another
(29:21):
episode of Strictly Business.
Welcome to Strictly Business. I'm Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in
chief of Variety. Today my guest is Variety's own Brent Lang,
our executive editor who oversees all film and media coverage.
Brent and several other reporters have been in Las Vegas
this week for the annual CinemaCon gathering of movie studios
and exhibitors. It's a fraught time for the film business,
(00:30):
as Variety readers well known. Brent shares his observations about
the mood and the palpable tension between studios and theater
owners at a time when everyone's margins are under extreme pressure,
and we talk about some hot topics of the moment,
including the fate of Michael de Luca and Pam Abdey
(00:50):
as the leaders of Warner Brothers Pictures. As a little
end credits bonus, I talked to Pat Sapristein, Variety's Deputy
editor of Film about her recent report on the twenty
one coolest movie theaters in the World. That's all coming
up after this break, and we're back with on the
(01:24):
ground reporting from CinemaCon. Brent Lang, executive editor a Variety
based in New York, but the last three days, you
have been in Sin City in Las Vegas for the
Annual Cinema You've been in Las Vegas for the annual
Cinema con convention that brings together movie studios with their
favorite exhibitors exhibition chains from around the world to talk
(01:48):
about new product and show off their wares. Obviously, you're
heading into summer box office season. Tell me, I know
it's not completely done, but you've seen a bunch of presentations.
What's so far has really stood out to you? What's
impressed you?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I think what's impressed me the most is that
this is usually a very celebratory affair where people studios
get on stage and they talk about the magic of
the movie going experience and how vital theaters are to
the whole ecosystem. And they are certainly doing that, but
there's a much more tension than there has been in
past years. And I think some of that is because
(02:25):
twenty twenty five was supposed to marco real turnaround for
the theatrical business, and instead the first three months of
the year have been really very poor, very sluggish. Films
like Snow White and Mickey seventeen have flopped at the
box office, and so the exhibition community is feeling less
excited than they maybe have in the past. And as
(02:48):
part of that, the head of a group called Cinema United,
which is the main lobbying group for the exhibition industry.
It used to be called NATO, but they wisely changed
the name a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Ago that NATO and the other NATO are both. These
are trying times for both organizations.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And apparently they were getting male's mail for the other
NATO and death threats and all kinds of things. So
it was a real disaster. But the head, Michael O'Leary,
used his time on stage to kind of throw down
the gauntlet on a couple of issues that haven't been
fully resolved. And the major one is windowing, which is
(03:27):
you know when a film how on it is in
playing in theaters exclusively. Way back when it used to
be that they had to play exclusively in theaters for
ninety days. But during the pandemic, studios which always wanted
to shorten that length of time so they could get
into the home entertainment and downstream revenue a lot quicker,
were able to negotiate with the theater chains to get
(03:49):
it down to about as low as seventeen days. And
the theater owners really hate this. They think that they're
leaving money on the table. They think that it's gotten
people accustomed to wait to see movies in the home
and that they aren't going out as much. And O'Leary
used a bunch of data to indicate that in areas
(04:09):
and countries where the windows are longer, the box office
has been stronger, particularly for films that aren't like Barbie
or Oppenheimer or Inside Out, to those kind of like
mid tier films. And so what you're hearing is that
people want that window to go up. At AMC, which
is the largest exhibition chain, has publicly said they'd like
(04:31):
that window to return to about sixty days. The theater
owners I talked to wanted to be about forty five days.
So there's already a negotiation. But the studios feel like,
well this is result. So I think that's a source
of major tension. And it's kind of changed the atmosphere here,
the tone of the convention, and I think it's it's
(04:52):
become a little bit more of like us and them,
and that's not usually the spirit of CinemaCon. And even
like you'll have like Leonardo DiCaprio come on stage to
plug a movie or something like that. In the past,
theater owners were euphoric and they were kind of like
politely applauding. It was a very different tone, and I
think you just have a sense of tension and nervousness
(05:13):
and anxiety about the state of this business.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It seems like in this moment, now, this isn't everything
everywhere all at once for media moment, and movie theaters
are very much a bastion of this is the ultimate exclusivity.
You literally have to leave your home and go to
see you know, elect to go to this theater to
see this movie. And that's very you know, and they
want to preserve exclusivity and expand it back to where
(05:39):
it once was. And that seems, you know, very much
out of step with how consumers, especially as we know
younger consumers expect to have things, They expect to have
everything's at their fingertips. Same time, you can, certainly there's
been a lot of evidence you can making the case
that like the marketing that goes into a theatrical release
pays dividends down the road. So very interesting things we've
(06:02):
been covering for a while. Let me ask you about O'Leary.
This is, if I'm not mistaken, this would be his
second CinemaCon in charge. He had some big, fit big
he had some big shoes to fill in John Fithian,
who was a warrior for the exhibition business for a
very long time, always colorful, never you know, never shy
(06:22):
about advocating for his folks. How is how does O'Leary
compare to the to the you know, the tall shadow
of John Fithian.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You know, it's interesting. I you know, I've known John
for many years, so it's it's very different, and stylistically
they're very different. And I think what was surprising is
I thought that O'Leary initially seemed much more conciliatory and
John Fithian was was a little more willing to kind
of get into the to the monk and to really
(06:53):
to play hardball if he needed to for his members,
And I sort of didn't get that sense from O'Leary,
but I thought his speech was pretty pointed, and that
to me indicates that his members, his clients, if you will,
are really urging him, like we need a fighter on
our side here. And I think that shows just how
(07:13):
dire the situation is for theaters. We had a story
going into CinemaCon that I don't even know if this
number had really been out there, but during from twenty
nineteen to today, they've lost fifty seven hundred screens in
the United States, which is a huge number of screens
to kind of go out of commission. And I think
the other problem is the business model isn't quite working
(07:37):
right now. You have the studios that are only doing
a few films. They're doing fewer films than they ever
did before, and the movies they want to make are
these blockbuster franchise films, which the theaters absolutely want, but
that means they're making about nine to on the higher end,
twelve movies a year. And you know, in the heyday
in the nineteen nineties, they would make forty movies a year,
(07:59):
forty five movies a year, and the independent community is
not filling in that gap either, So there just aren't
enough movies to fill in these screens. And although ticket
sales are split between the studio and the theater chain, the
theater chain makes most of their money on concessions because
they're able to upsell popcorn and soda, so they don't
(08:21):
really they just need enough product on their screens, and
they feel like there's a whole bunch of audience, particularly
the older audience, that isn't being served, so they want
a lot more of those kind of mid budget movies.
The economics don't make any sense for the studios because
the downstream revenue, the cable, the streaming, all of those
other kinds of licensing revenue isn't as robust as it
(08:42):
once was, so it doesn't support the kinds of budgets
that they it used to do. So I think what
you're having is kind of this perfect storm of these
different business models that are kind of being constructed, and
nobody really knows how to solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Right now, and the presence of so many streamers out
there that are hungry for content is it's pretty compelling
to like, I'm going to get one. I'm going to
get one check for a certain amount of time, versus
rolling the dice on all the P and A and
everything that would go into a theatrical release. Back real
quick to the windows, I wanted to ask you, is
there apropos of that mid budget movie? Is there any
(09:19):
do you think is there any possibility of like a
variable window. You know, your superhero movie gets a longer,
longer time to keep you know, to keep keep the
coming in, hoping for that great repeat viewing. But a
mid budget and adult drama is a more you know,
more of that seventeen day, twenty ish day. Do you
see any of that being potential?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I think you will stay more of that, actually, I think,
I mean there already is some concessions within these the
prior agreements, and these are annual agreements actually, just to
clarify at least with the major chains that if a
film dips between behind beneath it a certain box office result,
(10:03):
it could go on demand quicker. I think that you'll
have more of that. But I think it's just enormous
frustration with how the studios are kind of negotiating with
the movie theaters. There was even O'Leary made a point
that I thought was interesting, which he said that the
theaters need to have more freedom to pick when they
(10:25):
show films and how they show films. He was saying, like,
if you have a family film contractually now, if you
want to play a Disney movie or something like that
that's aimed at kids, you have to have ten PDM showings. Well,
he was saying, nobody who has kids is going to
see a ten pm showing, so they want more flexibility
with how they schedule these films. It just it feels
(10:48):
like they're kind of at loggerheads right now. I don't
really know how it'll be resolved, and yet.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
The studios aren't coming from the strongest place of negotiating either.
It'll be interesting to see how much, how much play,
how much elasticity there is in these kind of negotiations,
and who is you know, who's innovative, who comes up
with that solution that everybody can live with or people
hate less than the other solution. Let me ask you
(11:15):
a little more specifically about the presentations. Obviously you've seen
some big ones Warner Brothers, Sony, lions Gate. I believe
what anything on the product that was bally Hood on
the stage, there anything really stand out to you.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I mean, there were certainly some things that looked good.
I think one thing that was interesting is that in
the past the studios have pretty much stuck to the year,
the calendar year when they reveal their films. But they
don't have as many films, so they're actually going out
as far as like twenty twenty eight, which when Sony
was talking about the Beatles movie, the four movies that
they're going to release simultaneously, which by the way, theater
(11:53):
owners are over the moon for they're so excited about this.
I think it's a cool event. That it's going to
get people out of their houses is totally unique. They're
totally on board with that. But you see people kind
of dipping into twenty six, twenty seven and beyond to
kind of pat out their slate. I thought that people
were excited about the Spider Verse coming back, and I
(12:13):
think twenty seven they seem, you know, they're thrilled about
another Spider Man that does big business for them. Some
of the Lionsgate movies that John Wick films, theater owners
are really excited about that. Warner Brothers was the most interesting,
and that's the studio that has faced a lot of scrutiny.
There's a lot of speculation that Pam Abdy and Mike
de Luca are in the hot seat right now that
(12:34):
they've spent a lot of money on risky, more artistic films.
And you could feel the tension on the stage and
they made the point at several points of saying, you know,
we believe in original films, we believe in original, bold visions,
and that was on display. To their credit, they gave
Paul Thomas Anderson, I think, one hundred and thirty million
(12:55):
dollars to do a movie with Leonardo DiCaprio that I
thought looked really cool, but I don't know what its
commercial prospects are. In Maggie Jillenhall, guess.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
What's the title of the Leo movie.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
It's called on One Battle after Another, and it definitely
looks fun to me, but I just don't know, you know,
if it'll be kind of a four quadrant type of movie.
Then there's this kind of punk rock Bride of Frankenstein
from Maggie Jillenhall that I thought looked pretty cool too,
But I think some of the theater owners I spoke to
(13:27):
seem to think that that looked pretty risky. I will
say Superman. The theater owners are very excited about Superman.
They're excited. They feel like James Gunn has kind of
found a way to make this hero appeal to modern audiences.
There's a cute super dog that seemed to play really
well too.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Don't go anywhere, We'll be right back with more CinemaCon
observations from Variety. Sprentline and we're back with more reportage
from CinemaCon with Varieties Brent Lang. It does sound like, though,
that the sort of marketplace once again is rewarding innovation.
(14:07):
The plan Sam Mendes's plan for the four Beatle biopic
movies is different. It's a more elaborate construction of movies
over a period of years. We've seen people try that
in the past. It's rarely been executed, rarely worked, but
certainly it sounds like they're really going into it. And
Sam Mendez is an incredible filmmaker. And I just got
(14:28):
to say, Barry Cogan as Ringo, that's genius. He's already
got the hair. That's you know. I've been there with
seeing television network upfronts that were led by executives that
everybody kind of knew was we're not going to be
there by the time most of those shows premiered, and
that is all that is. It's almost an uncomfortable situation
(14:50):
for everybody in the Let me just ask you bluntly,
do you think do you think the writing is on
the wall for de Luke and Abdey or do you
think they still have a shot to turn this around.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I think they have a very limited shot, but I
would be shocked if they're still in this position within
a year. And I think even if you look at
the way when your brother's discovery is handled, the kind
of stories about them, there was some quote that Robert
Gibbs had that was basically something like nothing is imminent,
which is not a huge endorsement. And you know, I
(15:25):
respect both Mike de Luca and PM Abdy and I
think they're very creative, talented people, but I think what
they were trying to do might just have been too risky.
It's great to be bold artistically, but it's pretty smart
to be conservative financially when you take those kinds of risk,
and it seems like they forgot the second part of that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
This time last year, I sat with Peter Kujowski a
Focus Features and we had a great conversation in advance
of Cinema con and he really at that time was
really emphasising we don't talk enough about the communal experience
of moviegoing, the magic, the romance of movie going. We
all know the Nicole Kidman spot that runs at the
(16:07):
AMC theaters, but did you hear on the studio side,
did you hear much have you heard so far, like
you know, calls to supporting that idea that the industry
itself needs to support the idea of movie going as
a special, as a destination, as an event.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well, I think one thing that I've heard consistently from studios,
and they certainly didn't say this on the stage, but
is that the theaters need to do more to innovate too,
that they need to have facilities that are clean, that
are inviting, that they need to do more in terms
of kind of educating their staff to be a little
more civil. I suppose one person said that the thing
(16:48):
that they could do the best is have clean bathrooms,
and as a person who lives in New York, that
is something that they really should invest in.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
It thumbs up from this moviegoer, Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
But I think a big problem they've had, and O'Leary
has said this to me too, is that the financial
markets are really down on the movie going experience. So
that's created a real capital crunch all down the line,
not just AMC but your local movie theater. If they
want to invest in recliners and kind of a more
(17:18):
luxury experience. If they go to their local bank to
get alone, that bank is looking at sort of how
the sector is performing, and it's going to be harder
for them to get money. So what really needs to
happen is kind of a chicken and egg thing. I mean,
the narrative around this needs to change or they're not
going to have access to the kind of capital they
need to do their kind of innovations that I think
(17:38):
everybody understands they need to do.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
One another, you know, from the Cinema con stage. Another
really bold proposal that was put forth by MPa chief
Charles Rifkin was he said, flat out, we need federal
production tax incentives, which is interesting. I've never I can't
remember somebody saying that boldly, you know, in such a
prominent spot. And of course, as we know, the federal
(18:04):
government is going through a lot, the federal going federal
government is going through its own massive restructuring right now.
Did you get a sense of what the reaction to
that was. I would imagine that there'd be a lot
of support, but were people talking about the real politique
of actually making that happen in this environment?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I mean, I think, you know, good luck to him
on that. I don't see that happening. I just it
doesn't seem like that's what's in the air at the moment.
That said that, the president is a very transactional person,
and I ask studio people about this, and they don't
think this is a possibility. But you know, if they
(18:44):
really did have a bunch of big stars come and
suck up to Trump, I mean, maybe that would move
the needle. But it just seems like the creative community
would never do that, would absolutely refuse to do that.
So I just think, you know, with this administration, with
what's going on with the economy, I think a federal
incentive is going to be a hard thing to make happen.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I think, you know, just there's always the essential conflict
that you even have in California between the people in
Sacramento and the people in La. To a lot of
people outside the industry, it feels like give money to
Hollywood what That could be a hard sell. But I'm
sure Trump will put John Voight, Sylvester Stallone, and Meil
Gibson right on it as soon as as soon as
(19:27):
we're done here, excuse me. There were a couple of
stories that broke while as always when you're covering these things,
there are a couple of big stories that broke. Was
there much buzz about the word surfaced about a potential
Cliff Booth movie, the character from Once upon a Time
in Hollywood, you know, having a whole other adventure that
(19:48):
would not be from Tarantino directly, but of course Tarantino
blessed was at the talk of the town yes to
the talk of the show yesterday.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I went to a dinner that Fendango had with a
bunch of reporters, and it was certainly the talk of
that dinner. People excited about that, about the Tarantino script Fincher,
you know, people love Fincher. I mean I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right, involving a little guy named not Quentin Tarantino, but
David Fincher. Yoh yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So I mean that was a big That was a
big story.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I will say that was my favorite character from the movie.
So so go forth with Cliff Booth. I say, also,
obviously some sad news overnight the Val Kilmer left us.
I would imagine, you know, he really you forget that
you look back. I mean he really starting kind of
late eighties nineties, really had quite a run there as
a leading man.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Absolutely really an incredible actor. It's still kind of amazing
to me that he wasn't nominated for an Oscar for
the Doors because that's just an amazing performance that he gave.
And as Doc Holliday and Tombstone, and he was such
a chameleon. I know, he was an eccentric and that
rubbed people the wrung way at times, and I think
caused submissions for him throughout his career. But you know,
(21:00):
then you kind of look back at the totality of
what somebody contributes and it's really impressive. I mean, he
was able to move kind of seamlessly between kind of artsy,
more challenging stuff and to also be, like, you know,
to play Batman, so he could do.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
It all exactly. I'll say my last question for you,
there's there's a there's a trade show aspect to cinema
con and it's always fun to walk around. Was there
anything in the whether the concessions or gizmos and gadgets
that people are trying to sell to theater owners, anything
anything fun that stood out to you.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I haven't made my way up there quite yet. I'm
still recovering from when I did a little forty X
demonstration a couple of years ago, which I almost lost
my lunch, So I think, I don't know take it.
I'll definitely go on an empty stomach. But it is
always amazing to see like what they're trying to sell theaters,
(21:54):
the different technologies and the food items are in particular
really interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah all right, well, I'm sure you'll have on perusing
that later. Brent Lang, thank you so much for taking
the time. It's been really a great We feel like
we've been on the ground at CinemaCon with you. From Brent,
we learned that clean bathrooms are a baseline requirement for
movie theaters these days. But what makes a movie theater special?
What makes a venue rise to the status of movie palace.
(22:21):
Pat Sapristin dove into this for her recent story highlighting
the twenty one coolest movie theaters in the World. You
can find it on Variety dot Com here. She explains
how she compiled her list.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Well, what prompted me to do this was just looking
at a lot of beautiful historic theaters and really feeling
like I wanted to spotlight the fact that some of
these have been preserved for over one hundred years in
such a beautiful state. But then as I started looking around,
I realized that it's not just beautiful theaters that are
(22:54):
interesting to talk about. It's also some of the ones
that have state of the art technology, or dable modern architecture,
or just really great programming that draws a really tight
community of film lovers to their particular community. And then
in some cases it's also great dining options that draws
a lot of patrons. So I looked at a lot
(23:16):
of different factors, and many of them are indeed the
most beautiful, but some are also the most historic in
other ways. Besides just the building itself.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Movie theaters are public spaces. They're part of the public square,
and I feel that every single time I go to
a theater, I always think, like, I love this communal experience.
But it would you say that at a time when
movies are definitely under pressure, the whole movie going experience
has changed radically, and people are talking about, you know,
(23:46):
will movie theaters endure for another twenty thirty forty years.
It sounds like there's a sense that there's a real
potential to foster community. A movie theater can be that
public square place again.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yes, that's that's why I really wanted to highlight a
couple of places that are so important to their communities,
like the Music Box Theater in Chicago, the Nighthawk in Brooklyn,
Cinema in downtown Reikievik, Iceland. That's the only place where
you can see foreign films or art house films in
the city of Reikievik itself. And all of these places
(24:22):
draw people not just to the theater, but to film festivals,
to the cafe, to all kinds of community events. The
one in Iceland even has children's birthday parties in the
lobby during the day when it's not being used as
much for movies. So I think we're seeing that they
can be great community spaces for a number of reasons.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And let's talk about the food, because obviously that has
become the luck luxing up of theaters has become a
big deal. The improving of the improvement of the food.
It's not those horrendous nachos with something that looked like
cheese and bad canned Hall of pen was on top
of them. Is At the same time, though as long
(25:04):
as as at least for ten to fifteen years, we've
been writing about the increase of these kinds of amenities
and luxuries in theaters in the big picture, is that
making a difference.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I think it really is making a difference. Maybe not
in sort of the suburban mall cinemas quite as much,
but especially in urban areas, it really creates a sense
of community when you can get a drink ahead of time,
or you can order food into the theater. It's become
a really popular thing in lots and lots of theaters,
(25:36):
and a lot of them have really distinctive cocktail programs
where so many of them name cocktails after the names
of favorite films or favorite characters, which was really fun.
And then others have real signature items. And in fact
I looked all over the world for these theaters and
one of the ones I spotlighted was at the mall
(25:57):
of Dubai, the real cinemas of Do Buy. They partnered
with Guy Fieri to do the food for their restaurant.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I do know from our coverage, our fantastic exhibition coverage,
from our fantastic Box office reporter Rebecca Rubin that these
high end things do our big margin for businesses that
are surviving on smaller and smaller margins. So if the
margin on a Fela Mignon is higher than a hot dog,
a Fela Mignon steak is higher than a hot dog,
then that's then And if it brings people in for
(26:28):
that experience, then I guess it is clearly more and
more people are going that way. Would you say Alamo
Draft House was kind of the forerunner here where their
embrace of beer and movies. Was that something that kind
of do you think set a path for this current
wave of sort of luxury movie going.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
They were, for sure, and I think they were also
one of the early ones to realize that the food
has to be, you know, decent food. Like you said,
you can't just give people any old thing and charge
your premium price for it. And the ability to be
able to get a beer inside movie theaters, you know,
it still seems kind of novel and fun to me
(27:06):
that you can do that in so many places now.
And in fact, the Nighthawks Cinema in Brooklyn, they were
the ones who overturned the law in the state of
New York you could not have alcohol in a movie
theater until they really got going and managed to overturn
that law. And now you have an Alamo also in
New York.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
What would you say is the most out of the
way theater, like the hardest to get to or you know,
from the US, What would be the most sort of
remote theater that is on the list?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Well, the one in Dubai is certainly a far piece,
but I also wanted to spotlight this one in La
biotat France, which is on the French Riviera, so it's
not terribly far from the can Film Festival, but it
isn't a very small remote town. And that was where
the Lumier brothers lived and if you recall, they kind
(27:59):
of start movies and so they had the first public
movie screening at the Eden Theater in eighteen ninety five,
and the theater is still standing. You can still go
see an art house movie there, and it's just kind
of amazing that they have some of their old projection
equipment made out of wood boxes and you can still
(28:20):
see a theater where they you can still see a
movie in a theater where they showed the first movie
in eighteen ninety five, and I think that's very cool,
and I don't think very many people are familiar with
the Eden Theater, but it's pretty historic.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
We've grew up in the film business, You've traveled the
world for Variety. What's your favorite theater?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Wow, I'm just going to go with a hometown selection
of the Vista in silver Lake, which is now owned
by Quentin Tarantino, and he, you know, he brought it
back and remodeled it, and we just really appreciate that
it's still a great place for film lovers and really
cool looking inside as well.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
We need nice things in la. Thank you, Pat, thanks
for your time, Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave
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