September 6, 2016 • 48 mins
The use of animals for commercial and scientific testing is a quietly controversial topic. That we humans have advanced as a species because we use animals as literal and figurative guinea pigs is undeniable. But do we have the right to do that?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W Chuck Bryant. This
is Stuff you Should Know the podcast, not the least
of which is membered by Jerry. That was exciting. I
have a bad cold. Yeah, my brain is not functioning
quite right. Yeah, but this is not the old days
where you have the six weeks of cold. Right, Hopefully
(00:52):
this will be just a couple of episodes, right, bear
with us, yeah, bear, But to make up for it,
I have all my teeth finally, right. It's just this
constant pendulum, that's right, swings from one of us to
the other. Got all toothed up yesterday, feeling good. The
eight months is over. Like, click your teeth together for everybody,
(01:12):
I'm afraid to Okay, you're like they're precious. Yeah, I
gotta treat them very carefully and I got fitted for
a bite guard, so I when I grind my teeth
at night doesn't keep happening. So things are looking good.
Everything's coming up, Chuck. That's funny. Jumy has a bike
guard too, from grinding her teeth. So two of the
most significant people in my life on their teeth, both
(01:35):
kind on their teeth. Did she bought her fingernaut? I don't.
Does she bought her fingers? Yeah? I take out my
stresses on my body. Yeah, those are short nails. Do
they hurt? Do they just ache? Because sometimes if I
overdo it, they do. If I when I cut my
nails and I file them a little too short, they
just ache for a day or so afterward. Yeah. To
(01:56):
have it, I've always done it. Yeah, like since you
can remember. Yeah, I wore that bitter polish for a
while when I was a kid to try and I
just cheered right through it. Yeah. It was like, oh,
it's so better. Still must bite if I kind of
like it in a weird way. Yeah, the part of
me that hates myself loves that taste. So weird. Well, Chuck,
(02:17):
Let's talk about another habit, a habit that humans have
had for a very long time. Uh. And that is
the habit of using animals as models for humans, as
stand ins for humans when we want to test new things,
find out new things about ourselves, like will this kill me?
Let's put it on an animal, right, does the heart
(02:38):
or the lungs actually pump blood around the body. Let's
cut a dog open and find out that we've been
doing it for a very long time. Yeah, And this
article came with its own own intro story, which was
pretty interesting. I thought, Yeah, we haven't done one of
those in a long time. They used to be like
a standard aspect of this. Yeah. Now we just babble
(02:58):
the yeah. Yeah, we just share what's going on in
our lives or day pretty much. Sorry, everybody. It must
be a real letdown that I think about it. Should
we do this though? All right, Well, let's go back
in time, back to seven and there was a company
called a pharma company called S. E. Matson Gil out
(03:19):
of Tennessee, and they had a great, I almost want
to say, wonder drug. Uh. There was an antibiot antibiotic
that worked really well in its powdered form, and people
started clamoring and said, we love this stuff, but sure
it would be great if we could put it as
a as a drop under my tongue instead. Right, I
(03:39):
like liquids. I'm not big on powders like that weirdo
Richard Petty who just takes goodies powder like me. Love
that dude. That's my go to. It's got caffeine. That's
what helps. Yeah, for migraines too. Really, caffeine is a
big one. Yeah, Emily can't do them, but that it's
my I couldn't either. It's my hangover cure. I see that,
I say that out loud. Did Yeah it works, wonders.
(04:02):
I thought, bloody Mary's where you're hangover again? I'm not.
I'm not a hair of the dogger. That's what it
was inventive for, you know. Yeah, all right, I'm getting
a self check. I apologis. Uh. So they decided we
need a liquid form of this. What was the name
of the drug, uh, sul fannel man. I just had
it sulfanlu minde yes or stulf vanillamide. I think sulfanla
(04:26):
mind Okay, that's how I would say it if I
were in nineteen thirties seven Tennessee, and well, uh, they
had a chemist named Harold Cole Watkins who went to
the lab and said, all right, let's dissolve this stuff
and something called uh dieth eileen glycolthlen that one I
know worked pretty well. So they added a little raspberry
flavoring to make it palatable, and they said, it smells
(04:47):
pretty good, tastes pretty good, looks pretty good. Let's sell it. Yeah,
and they did. They sold a bunch of it, and
just like one one month after mixing up a batch
of the stuff, they had six thirty three shipments all
over of the country because there was a huge demand
for this, I mean, like syl sylfanum I was already
an established drug. The idea of it being in some
(05:07):
sort of palatable form that was gangbusters. Everybody had syphilis
that they needed to take care of back then, and
this kind of thing would help and if it could
be a pleasant experience, well then great. And then uh
that was September when they made their first shipment. Right
by October, middle of October October eleventh, to be specific,
a group of doctors in Tulsa contacted the a m A,
(05:29):
the American Medical Association, and said, um, we think there's
something really wrong with this new mass and guild product,
which they called Sulfanila Mind Elixir or a lixer of
sulfanal of mind. Um, we think it's killing people actually
and killing them in one of the worst ways imaginable. Yeah,
it wasn't a just go sleepy time. Now, it was
(05:51):
a pretty bad death. Right. You're writhing in agony, you're
probably puking your guts up. You're just you're dying from
from being poisoned. So the A M A got ahold
of some off and they said, you know what, the
actual drug is fine, but this, uh, the solution we
mix it with is the culprit. It is pure poison.
Who knew? Nobody knew. And the reason why no one
(06:12):
knew was because mass and Gill and Cole Watkins. Um there,
Harold Cole Watkins and his his group of chemists were
not obligated to test this stuff out. Yeah, well people
knew though. That was the one frustrating thing is studies
out that said this stuff was poison, and I guess
they just didn't read them right. They didn't research the literature,
which is a big deal. Um, But they also didn't
(06:35):
test it out on human or animal ahead of time. Uh.
And they again they just looked at the tech or
the appearance, the smell, a little bit of the taste,
but no one took a full dose of this apparently,
and um, people died. I think a hundred people died
in fifteen states in about a month or so before
they could get um the shipment's back. Yeah. I think
(06:57):
the FDA, the barely born f D A. Um, this
is one of its first actions was going and getting
this stuff. Yeah. And the president of the company said, uh,
you know, we haven't broken any laws because I guess
there weren't laws on the books at the time. And
the head chemist, um, very sadly killed himself because of this. Yeah. Um,
(07:18):
like the story goes from bad to worse and um,
that was pretty Japanese of him. Yeah you know, yeah,
we did. We do a full episode on that on
suicide on I mean Hardy Cary. But it had another
name too, right, Yeah, did we do that or did
we just mention it? I'm sure we just mentioned okay,
um yeah, I think in the Japanese Stragglers and probably
(07:41):
the samurai Yeah, and the revenge one. Yeah. Boy, it's
sorry to keep track these days, yeah, really really is.
So this led to a night Congress in the US
enacted the FDA Cosmetic Act, which said that you know what,
you need to test these drugs on animals, and that
therein sort of started, at least in the US, the
(08:05):
official like decree that you can and should do this, right,
But it has been going on a long time before that,
or Buddy Galen who we've talked about before, well even
further back than galen Um, if you look at the Greeks,
at least as far back as about five c UM.
The ancient Greeks were using animals for testing, poking around
(08:28):
figuring out how to how the human body works, and
there was this idea that there was an analogy between
all animals that humans shared like a lot of the
same physiology of all animals. And there was a great
disagreement among the Greeks in particular about whether that was true.
But it didn't stop guys like Aristotle Um and uh Aerosistratus, yeah,
(08:52):
and Hippocrates as well from basically poking around inside live animals,
which is the the where the term for animal testing
came from. The other terms vivisection. Vivisection is cutting something
open while it's still alive. Yes, specifically an animal, right
or is that no, you can vivisect humans, yeah, because
(09:15):
dissection occurs after death. Vivisection is like cutting open I
think technically surgery would be. But the idea behind vivisection
is that there's this is just for experimentation actually not
like let me heal that oregan right there, right, which,
by the way, go back and listen to our human
(09:35):
experimentation episode. That was a great one. I remember that one.
Uh So flash forward a bit to second century Rome
where our friend Galen, who we just talked about him
in a podcast Our lives stuff in UK and Ireland,
that's right, which hopefully people will hear him. Yes. Uh,
he was a medical specialist and he said, you know what,
(09:59):
I going to do a demonstration in the public. I'm
gonna rent a hall. Yeah, basically, I'm gonna get this
pig and I'm gonna prove that we are all a
bundle of nerves by snipping certain nerves of this pig.
You want to see him not squeal anymore, watch me
snip this nerve. And uh, it was all planned in
this philosophers, pretty popular guy. He had punching cookies out.
(10:23):
He was really excited for this day. Philosopher that was
in attendance named Alexander. Uh Demascenus, Yeah, Demastinus, one of
those two. He Um said, you know what this is,
bs Um, doesn't prove a thing. And in fact, none
of these demonstrations prove anything, because that's a pig and
we're humans. Why are you bothering? Right? And apparently the
(10:46):
Romans had adopted from the Greeks the idea that empirical
evidence didn't really prove anything. If you saw something, it
doesn't mean it was true, right, which is a weird philosophy.
I'd like to understand a little more. I'm sure there's
a lot more to it than that, but that's just
like such a completely radically different paradigm from what we
have now. Um, the paradigm of science we're seeing is indeed,
(11:09):
believing that it requires empirical evidence. Used to be the opposite,
And that was Alexander's big objection, like, hey man, you
can cut that pig's nerve all day long, and sure
I saw it, and sure it had that effect, but
it doesn't prove anything. And Galen was like, I hate you,
I hate that idea, I hate Aristotle. I'm leaving because
Aristotle was apparently somebody who said, Yeah, I've I've poked
(11:34):
around in a pig or two in my time, and
I've concluded that the heart and that the brain is
the center. This idea that a nerve connected to the
brain could control anything is hogwash, if you'll forgive the punt.
Aristotle is just a big dummy, the dumbest of them all. So, um,
Galen did, in fact say I'm leaving. He said, I'm
(11:54):
taking my medical bag and I'm going home. And then
everyone there was like, boa, I really want to see
this pig get cut apart. Please don't leave. He said, okay,
you guys, I'll do it. You twisted my arm, came
back in. Uh, performed the experiment in the demonstration, and
this was the one of the first recorded um examples
(12:16):
of experimenting on animals for science. Yeah, so the ball
was rolling. Yeah, And um, I don't know if Galen
hadn't done it first. And he he obviously hadn't done
it first because he came a few hundred years after
Aristotle who had done that. But if Aristotle hadn't done it,
eventually somebody who was curious enough would have grabbed a
dog or a chicken or something and just cut it
(12:38):
open and started looking at what was inside. Yeah, you know,
like it would have happened, but these are the people
who are recorded doing it first. Uh. Go forward in
time a bit to the late nineteenth century, and there
was a microbiologist from Germany, Robert Coke, and he got
he got some some anthrax. He got some blood from
(12:58):
cows killed by anthrax. Started looking at it under a
microscope and said, you know what, something in there looks
funny to me. That might be the anthrax. So let
me take that and put it in a mouse and
see what happens. The mouse died, and he said, I'm
onto something here. I'm pretty sure that was the anthrax. Uh,
A big deal. It was a big deal. Again, using
(13:20):
an animal to experiment in order to further human understanding
and protect human health in life, that's right. And those
are the big eats that people have used animals for. Yeah,
and that was actual, like medically, let me try and
cure a disease. Yeah, not like the early guys like whoa,
what is this? To what happens if I sever this? Yeah?
(13:43):
But it it went on my ancient Greek impression Um.
The point I was trying to make, I guess was
later on in the nineteen fifties, people started, and notably
this Russian Dmitri h Bell Jeff, started using research on animals,
not necessarily for curing diseases, but to study behavior. Right. Yeah,
(14:09):
we talked about them in our Animal Domestication episode. Yeah,
so what he he had the great idea for these
cute little silver foxes. He's like, I might like one
of those is a pet. I have a niece who
would love one of those. Man, have you seen those
fox videos or then crying and walk around crying well
or calling or whatever. And they shake their little tail
when you scratch their belly, and I don't know if
(14:31):
I've seen that one. It's very cute. It makes sort
of like a little purring, little chirpy purr and wiggle
their tail and wag their tail, and it's just like, oh, man,
you're the perfect combination of dog and cats. Foxes are
pretty cute, so we want to team them. Well, that's
exactly what he did too, And he thought, I know
that domestication usually takes many, many, many years, but let
(14:54):
me see if I can do it in like years
and Chuck. Speaking of behavioral studies, one of the most
famous of all using animals was Pavlov's dogs, And I
was researching it and I had no idea. Pavlov didn't
just like bring a bell for his dogs to make
him salivate. He surgically altered his dogs. He went and
(15:15):
got their salivary glands and put them on the outside
of their faces so that he could collect saliva samples
more easily. And he created remember that cow in Athens
that had a porthole in it, same thing for the dogs,
so that he could collect gastric juices digestive juices for
samples as well. So what you're saying is that he
(15:35):
was a crazy madman. Yeah, yeah, I guess so. I
think the larger point here is that humans have been
just grabbing animals or even breeding animals, for the sole
purpose of using them to understand things a little more, right,
whether it be cutting them open to see how anatomy works,
(15:55):
to using them as um as for medical experiments, to
de termined that um anthrax is actually blood borne and
can kill you. Um two behavioral studies, right, And we
should point out that at work he was able to
weed out and by weed out, I mean coal, and
by col we mean kill, and by kill we mean
(16:17):
probably break their necks. Yeah. I think that's one of
the big problems with with this talking about this stuff
is so many euphemisms are used, like you just you
just demonstrated so Um. What he did was he was
able to weed out the foxes that weren't his tame,
and eventually he ended up with the fox that was,
by all accounts domesticated, a nice little pet. It said, Dmitri.
(16:42):
You and it's not just animals, um, that are cute
that we contame. Um. Animals and what most people would
say are roughly the lower end of the spectrum as
far as life is concerned, are very frequently used, like
um nematodes, fruit flies, UM. They come into use largely
because they have some similar processes. Like if you're studying
(17:07):
a very ancient process or a very ancient part of
the body like um insulin regulation, that you're gonna find
it throughout the animal kingdom. It's gonna be pretty widespread.
So the idea is, if you can track insulin regulation
and a fruit fly, you could conceivably extrapolate those findings
onto a human and a humans insulin regulation. And the
(17:30):
advantage of a fruit fly or a nematode is that
they're really easy to breed and they reproduce very quickly.
So if you're like Dmitri BALLETV and you're studying foxes,
it took him twenty five years to go through twenty generations,
it would take you roughly a month, I would guess
to go through about twenty generations of fruit flies. So
(17:51):
therefore you can track mutations much more quickly, much more inexpensively.
So UM, the fruit flies, the humatodes, other again lesser
life forms UM have been used extensively in medical testing
as well. And they and they count, they qualify. It's
a live organism that's being used for experimentation purposes. Yeah,
(18:12):
and uh, it kind of depends on what you're trying,
what your aim is, what your goal is, to what
animal you do use, because you can't just use any
animal for anything. UM. And here's a fun fact. I
did not know that the armadillo is an animal that
can actually get Hanson's disease a k A. Leprosy. We
knew that we talked about in the leprosy episode. I
(18:32):
don't remember mentioning the armadillo. I am scared to death
of armadillos now because of really oh yeah, when I
see it, I just look at him like leprosy. You
don't hug him on any longer, you know, and like
you'll see him on the side of the road, you know,
hit by a car or something like that. Texas, I
always double check, um. Well here in Georgia too, Yeah,
a little bit. Um. I always check to make sure
(18:54):
that my air recirculator is on when I pass them by.
That like the leprosy didn't waft into my car as
I drove past the roadkill that I was damaged by
the leprosy episode. Uh well, they actually have the perfect
body temperature to allow study on vaccines for leprosy. Um
(19:15):
And speaking of by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt you,
but I just found out last night that koalas Carrie
chlamydia really and transmitted sexually and can die from it.
Oh man, yeah, and are actually partially endangered in some
ways because they have chlamydia. M think about that next
time you want to hug from that cute little critter,
(19:36):
you know, well, they'll tear your face off too. Uh.
Should we take a little break here, all right, let's
take a break and we're kind of we're gonna come
back and talk more about the different animals used and
why Chuck. Before we get back to I want to
(20:10):
say this is UM this this episode and the other
one that's coming out Thursday. Yeah, and they're kind of
done in conjunction with these guys, UM Joe and Tim
who run a site called primer Stories dot com and
UM they do seasons. They're like animators, um web dudes,
(20:32):
and it shows they know what they're doing and they've
basically taken They'll they'll take essays. I wrote an essay,
then they take it and they break it up into
chunks and they animate it. Right, so as you're going
scrolling down, you're you're reading, but you're also experiencing, um,
the the art, the animation that really kind of brings
(20:54):
out the ideas of each one. It's really really neat site.
They they contacted us after our San Francisco show last year,
you know, early this year, and UM, they said, hey,
do you want to do one of these? And I
went and looked and I was amazed and said, yes,
I totally do. So you can go, UM check out
the s A I wrote at a primer stories dot
(21:16):
com slash s y s K and that one is
the one we're releasing after this one. Correct, Well, it
ties into both. It's it's kind of this essay about
UM humans changing attitude toward animal rights. But it was
fun to do and they're cool. They're cool dudes for sure,
and I like what they're doing. UM. This is the
fourth season, fourth season, nice plug, nice work. Thanks all right.
(21:40):
So we were talking about UM using different animals and
how if it's you know, fruit fly or a nematode,
people don't get their hackles up too much. No, it's true. UM,
if it is a rat or a mouse, people start
getting their hackles up a little more. UM and mice
are very famously used. A lot um of our genes
(22:04):
overlap with this mouse. UM specifically this one, which is
it mouse or amuse genus mice mices genus mice, So
that's the one that they use most often that has
the overlap UH, and their cell structure and organ organization
are basically the same as ours, so UM they do
(22:27):
a lot of testing with these mice as a result,
everything from you know, disease and stuff to genetics. Two
behavioral that they kind of run the gamut right on mice, Yeah,
for sure, and from that point up they tend to,
I think, run the gamut. Some are a little more
specific than others, like beagles apparently. Yeah, really come in
(22:47):
handy when you're testing prostate cancer um or muscular dystrophy both. Yeah. Um,
because they can contract those or develop those, so they
make great and mole models. Yeah. The these cats because
their site and they're hearing and their balance. I have
to ask, how are you feeling right now about this episode? Well,
(23:11):
what do you mean like about the topic? Uh? Because
you're holding it together really well? You mean I'm not
crying yet? Yeah? Yeah, I've checked my emotions out of
this one. I think this two parts sweet will get
points across. I'm just relying on that. I'll get weepy
(23:31):
later tonight. Do you remember the Secret of Nim? Yeah? Sure,
I had forgotten what the secret was, or I don't
think it ever dawned on me what the secret really
wasn't I went back and was reading about the those
were mice, right, there were rats and the secret of Nim.
Well we probably shouldn't say, would that be a spoiler? Yeah?
I think so it's like the spoiler, like that's in
(23:53):
the title. What if the secret of nim was that
Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense was dead all along?
You know what I think was an even Wait is
that a spoiler? Yeah? I think it was. It was
years ago at least. If you haven't seen the sixth
Cents by now, t s for you go see the others,
though a lot of people haven't seen the others. Sixth Sense,
(24:16):
the one thing cool Kidman, that was good Man. That
was great, very atmospheric Moody film, that one. And the Orphanage. Yeah, yeah,
it's fantastic. The Orphanage is maybe even the better of
the two. Yeah. Yeah. Uh So monkeys primates, um, well,
non human primates, we should say, specifically, the maccaque monkey
(24:38):
is used a lot because there, uh there's a lot
of them, and they're widely distributed and uh have a
robust population. So you know, they made a lot of
advances into neuroscience thanks to the maccaque monkey. And then, um,
there's some animals that will just do because they contain flesh,
like pigs and goats are used a lot, and what's
(25:00):
called live tissue trauma training, which is exactly what it
sounds like. Um, it's used to train battlefield medics in
the military. Uh, and the Coast Guard apparently, and um
the animals innesthetized deeply to like surgical plane levels and
um shot or blown up or um just weird stuff
(25:26):
done to it to stimulate a battlefield trauma so that
medic can do live what it's called live tissue trauma training,
so they can save a life on the battlefield. Yeah,
but then they euthanize the they kill the animal afterward.
But yes, on the battlefield. That's the whole I mean,
that's the whole point there. And they're saying there's no
substitute for that, well, which is sort of the what
(25:50):
they scientists and doctors say. Well, well we'll get into
all that, okay. Uh. One thing we should mention though,
is that if you look for labels say this was
not tested on animals. Uh, it's sort of like the
whole free range chicken myth. Um, it's not exactly what
you think it is, right, Well, free range chickens, it
(26:12):
doesn't have to have like a porch attached to the structure.
They don't even have to have access to it, and
you just have to have the door open so they
can leave if they want. Um. But you have people
have images I think of these chickens running around the fields,
idyllic countryside. Yeah, but they don't they they're in the
barn where the food is and they kind of don't leave.
But the doors they are, so they're technically free range
(26:33):
unless something's changed. When I worked in the chicken industry,
those sad that sad year or whatever it was, I
would guess absolutely nothing's changed. Probably so, But if you
look for labels to say cruelty free or not tested
on animals, it may not mean what you think because
technically there's no oversight on a label like that, and
it could mean that we did not in the final
(26:56):
product of this cosmetic tested on animals. We didn't tell
us this rouge, but all the raw ingredients that went
into this from our suppliers were tested on animals. Or
back in the sixties or seventies, they tested these same
ingredients on animals, and there's no need for us to
test them again. So now we can say not tested
(27:17):
on animals even though these things, right, these things were
tested on animals years back. UM, And actually China has
changed things recently, as um, the West was getting further
and further away. I think the EU banned imports of
of anything that have been tested on animals cosmetics wise. Um,
(27:38):
and China has gone the opposite direction. It is mandated
that anything important into China cosmetics wise must have been
tested on animals. So kind of reset things here in
the West because there's a lot of Western companies like
I want in on that Chinese market, and China saying well,
you got to test your like, the whole thing on
animals before it comes in here. Interest thing. Uh So
(28:03):
here's the deal. Over the twentieth century, Um, we've made
a lot of medical advances. Life expectancy, this is kind
of a neat stat has gone up about three months
per year in the twentieth century, largely due to stuff
like this testing for disease. Well, yeah, people who are
(28:23):
advocates of animal testing say that would not have happened
maybe at all, had we not used animals. And life
expectancy was extended three months a year from I think
like eighteen forty to two thousand six or something like
that every year. UM. And and that was advanced by
(28:46):
finding things like antibiotics and vaccines, and all of the
things that um not just extend the human life, but
make the the extended years more enjoyable as well more healthy. UM.
And that's a huge rallying cry for people who point
to animal testing and say this is this is necessary
(29:07):
and has to continue. And actually there is a two
thousand eleven poll of biomedical researchers by Nature, which is
no slouch of a scientific journal, and they found that
agreed with the the sentence use of animals in research
is essential. There's two eleven. So that's not that sentiment
isn't going anywhere. No, I think that's probably pretty much accurate. Today.
(29:31):
On the other side of the coin, you have animal
rights activists and and even if you're not an activist,
just your average Joe on the street or Jane UM
might say, you know what, this is unethical. Uh does
a lot of harm, it's wasteful, and there are better
ways to do it. In fact, some people say it's
not even doing the job that it should be doing.
(29:53):
For instance, Uh, they can cure cancer and mice, and
we have been able to do this for a while,
can't cure it in humans. UM. Of the HIV AIDS
vaccines that were tested uh successfully on primates, they don't
work on humans, and one of them may have even
made humans more susceptible. Yeah yeah, so it's uh, you know,
(30:15):
there's two very strong sides to this argument. The f
d A has said that nine tenths of all drugs
and development don't work in humans after they worked in
animals because you just can't tell, right, And actually I
looked that up there. It's it's a little bit of
a fallacy. It's more like fail in clinical trials. But
(30:38):
that's all pre clinical trials that so not just animal
testing but also non animal testing where it passed that
the first stages when it made it to clinical trials,
of all drugs failed to work or actually harmed humans.
There's another side of the coin, though, too, Chuck, how
many sides are on this coin. There's it's like one
(30:59):
of those hundreds to die that you see a D
and D but never know how to use. Um. There
are probably a lot of drugs out there that harmed
animals and were shelved right then didn't make it into
clinical trials because the animals were harmed, that may not
have harmed humans that actually could have cured things. So
there's people saying no, we we we need to be
(31:21):
testing on humans because we're using this for humans. That's
that's what some some prob I guess protesters against animal
testing would say. And then, um, another thing that I
saw is that you you tend to think like, Okay, well,
it's advancing science, so I can't really get in the
(31:41):
way of that. But there are One of the critiques
of that argument is not all the science is is good,
that's being done and like a lot of animal lives.
If you agree that animal lives are are valuable, and
but that use seeing an animal life to advance scientific
(32:02):
understanding to protect human health and life is worthy, it's
a worthy use of an animal, then that you would
also probably agree with the idea that wasting the animal's
life and scientific testing is unforgivable. Right. So there was
a survey in two thousand nine p l OS one
Proceedings of the Library of Science one, the Journal of
(32:23):
two one Animal Studies. I found that forty one percent
failed to even state hypothesis are objective to the tests
umtent failed to describe the statistic methods used uh in
the study, didn't randomize scent, didn't use blinding, and those
are basic scientific efforts that you have to make in
(32:45):
any experiment, right, those are very basic um, which means
that those things were wasted, which means those animals lives
were wasted. And the suggestion is is that a lot
of publicly funded science is just not very good science
and it's wasting the lives of the animals involved. Well,
that's sad. I'm starting to get emotional. Okay, all right,
(33:08):
let's take a break then and we'll come back and
talk a little bit about our old buddy, Charles D
Chuck D. Darwin. Alright, so I teased everybody with Charles Darwin.
(33:38):
Oh is that who you're talking about? Which is what
I do every Halloween. I dress up as Charles Darwin
and tease the local teens. Oh what are you going
to dress up as for our show in d C
on October twenty night. I don't know, but I'm glad
you mentioned that, because we're doing a show at the
Lincoln Theater and we're turning it into a Halloween ball.
It's a Halloween bash, not even a ball. Yeah, it's
(34:02):
a wrong above the ball, including a reading of a
of a Halloween story like we do just for their
ears only. Yeah, Plus we'll be dressed up. We're encouraging
everyone who comes to be dressed up. Maybe I'll go
to Charles Darwin. And as far as I know, it's
an all ages show, but it could get spooky and
our shows do get a little blue. So just f y,
(34:22):
I you've been worn So Charles Darwin, who I made
dress up as I've got. I'm pretty sure I know
what I'm going as I'd rather not reveal it at
the time. Um, he was kind of in on this
game a long time ago, and he was he loved animals,
but he also wanted to study animals, but he also
wanted to treat them humanly while he studied animals. Sounds
(34:47):
sounds like Charles Darwin kind of approach. Yes. Uh So
there was a eight seventy four there was like people
were actually starting to get in trouble for some of
these things. Uh. In eighteen seven, any for these scientists
were actually put on trial for torturing dogs because they
wanted to see how absent and alcohol affected their nervous system.
(35:09):
So they cut them open and exposed them to these liquids.
They just dowsed them, And is what I what I'm
taking from I have no idea, I guess, so they're
actually acquitted. But um, it sort of brought things into
the UH in the front of everyone's minds and Darwin.
People were saying, let's not do this at all, and
Darwin stepped in and said he was a little more
(35:31):
moderate and said, you know what, let's craft a bill
here in the United Kingdom where you can do this,
but do it humanely. And that resulted in the Cruelty
to Animals Act of eight. It's pretty great. It was advancement,
it was, but the UK actually has long led the
way in the West for animal rights. Um, even even
(35:53):
before that, as we'll see, they they were trying to
protect animals, as we'll see in the next episod So
that's right. And then a little later in ur the
University's Federation of Animal Welfare said, let's get these two
dudes zoologist and a microbiologist, Russell and Birch, and just
do a lot of research, guys, and come back with
(36:15):
some findings that we can use. And boy did they. Yeah.
They they were like, there's a lot better that we
can do in protecting animals. They um, scientists are typically
dumb and can only remember things through a literation. So
these guys came up with the three RS, something that
could be put on a p s a poster um.
(36:36):
The three RS. I'm just teasing about the scientist thing,
our replacement, reduction and refinement. Right, yes, so your first
goal is to to find a replacement of the animal.
Is there any alternative to the animal in this experiment? Yeah, well, like, uh,
a sentient animal with a not like with a worm
(36:57):
perhaps instead of a mouse, or you know, if you
can find uh willing robot. Right, you know that it's
the bill. The second one's reduction. You want to reduce
the number of animals used to the absolute minimum. You
don't want to have any spare bang utangs hanging around.
You want to know how many you're gonna use, and uh,
(37:20):
those are the ones that you can kill. Correct and
then finally refine, which means and and this is you know,
sort of the opposite of what you were talking about
with those awful stats that you said, like, let's refine
this and at least get your technique down. Uh so
well that the suffering is minimized to its bare minimum
(37:42):
as well the waste is reduced. Yeah yeah, Um, and
that that uh, that was nine that Russell and Birch
released the three RS. This is two thousand nine. That
that one study I cited was conducted years later. So, uh, Peter,
you know the people for the Ethical Treatment of Animals,
We've talked about them quite a bit on the show.
(38:04):
They are down with the three RS, of course, but
they say, you know what, that's not enough, though. We
have a lot of studies that show that they're way
better ways of doing things these days than using animals
with the computer modeling that we have now and software
and humans. Yeah, and um, they're they've figured out techniques
(38:25):
using stem cells um to grow organs or organs cells
or like say, skin cells in vitro, and then exposing
them to the chemicals you want to test, and then
not only will you have your reaction or non reaction,
you'll also have it with like a human human cells.
(38:48):
So it's not like, oh, it messed this rabbits face
up pretty bad. Well, we'll just assume that it will
mess up a human skin as well. It's you know,
this stuff really burned through that that human skin tissue
that we sent the sized, So now we know for
sure not to give it to humans. There's also something
called because a big objection to that is well, that's
(39:08):
just a it's a skin. It's a group of skin
cells in vitro that doesn't really replicate you know, these
really intricate interplays that make up organs and systems of organs.
And there's a company out called um OH. I don't
remember what they're called, but their invention is organ on
a chip. It's amazing, dude. I watched this video about
it last night, which that's the only way it could
(39:32):
be better. It's if you could eat it afterwards, but
it'd be pretty messed up if you did so. It's
like a USB stick size module. That's the word I'm
going with. It's transparent and um say, the long on
a chip has some branching stuff, and inside there is
a layer of um lung cells and the that replicate
(39:57):
and simulate human lung So you have human lung cells
growing in the and arranged in the way that they
would in the human lung. And then the this device
allows you to pass air over the top and blood
over the top and introduce bacteria and introduce white blood
cells and study what they do. So you're replicating the
(40:18):
function of a human lung on this little thing, which
is all simulation. It is, but it's a real simulation,
Like it's it's using real lung cells and they're functioning
like a lung normally would, except you don't have to
you don't have to use it. You don't have to
say here and and inhale this. We'll just pass this
antibiotic across the lung cells and it will treat it
(40:42):
like the human lung would. It's amazing. And then yeah,
if you could eat it afterwards, eat the human lung
cells with some guacamali, you'd be like this, this is
the circle of life is complete. Well, that's sort of
one of the big points so that Peter and a
lot of organizations uses that we're we're so vans now
with our computer modeling and these simulations that they're actually
(41:03):
they are better ways than like it's sort of archaic
to experiment on an animal like these are not only
cruelty free, but it's smarter and better, Right, that's the
argument they make. Yeah, and I mean the statistics cut
both ways. Like if you look at Peter's stats, they're
like animal models are predictive. It's in this dismal range
(41:27):
right for you know, human outcomes, and then the people
who are in favor of animal testing stay, well, these
these computer models are actually the ones that have dismal results.
So both sides. I guess it's just too new, maybe
it's unproven. Yeah, but there does seem to be a
movement a foot in uh bio medicine to replace as
(41:48):
much as possible computer models with animals with computer models. Yeah. Uh.
Some of the other things that animal rights groups lobby for,
things like, well how about you do like CT scans
or m r s you're not actually harming the animal,
or this thing called micro dosing where you actually give
humans just very very small doses of these medicines that
(42:13):
won't be enough to hurt them if things don't work out,
but you could tell if it's going to be effective
or not. Yeah, it still produces that reaction on a
molecular level. It's just not going to have a system
wide toxic effect on it. That's pretty that's pretty neat.
Um and and they're there. There's some change, but at
the same time there's also um some digging in on
(42:37):
on both sides as well, Like, for example, with that
live tissue trauma training. Um, there was a there's a
movement to replace uh, any live animal with a dummy
or a mannequin or something like that. And the people
who are proponents of using animals and live tissue trauma
training say, man, there's something that can happen to a
(42:58):
battlefield medic during common at and that's called freezing. When
they're presented with a human being with you know, a
major trauma, they can just sit there and freeze and
freak out because this is the first time they've been
exposed to it. One of the aspects of you know,
blowing the leg off of a pig is that this
person is having to work on a pig. And yeah,
(43:19):
it's a pig, but it's a live pig. It's not
a right exactly, and maybe they made they made the
person care for the pig for like a week first,
so that it has even more Well, I just made
that up, but you could you could see how the
how that would like that would be tough to replace.
That's a tough one to argue with. But I think
ultimately the question is race chuck um, And this is
(43:41):
what we're gonna address in the next episode. Is is
probably the largest question of all and is do humans
have or have humans ever had the right to use
animals for our own means? And that's uh, we'll talk
about that one on the next episode. Boy, that's a
nice cliffhanger, I think, so too well done. Do we
(44:03):
have listener mail this one? Yeah? And you know what,
not only that, we have a two part listener mail
awesome that has its own cliffhanger. Man. All right, well,
let's get to it. So if you want to know
more about animal testing, you can type that word in
the search part how stuff works dot com and it
will bring up this excellent article. And since I said
search bar, it's time for part one of listener Mail.
(44:27):
That's right. This one was so robust. It's an unprecedented
to part from Evan, not Ivan, but Evan, will you
grow up to be a good man? I hope? So
now that's Levi on. Oh yeah, well the else silent
um and those were weren't the right words anyway, but
(44:47):
it's adorable. All right, here we go. First off, guys,
gotta say you're not only my favorite podcast, but you're
also my ten year old son's favorite podcast. Listen to
every episode at least twice how about that. And my
son is also a big fan of your TV show
and the animated shorts why they're in deep. However, my
(45:07):
beautiful fiance is not. In fact, there have been times
when I will be sitting next to her and she's
reading a book and I'll have my headphones listening to
the podcast so I don't disturb her, and I'll burst
out laughing like a crazy person. In her words, uh
this quote crazy end quote. Behavior of mine is directly
(45:28):
uh related to listening to you two, So thanks for
that anyway. One of the reasons are right is to
call your attention. You said on the Sugar It Powers
the Earth podcast, Chuck says, one day we're gonna rerecord
a show and not realize it, we're gonna hear about it. Well,
you managed to do it. You probably heard from someone
else by now. But you have covered the topic of
(45:49):
customs twice, the most recent one and all gets the
previous one in September. Don't get me wrong, both were great.
Honestly think that both of you legit only forgot. I
was waiting for either of you to acknowledge at the
second time, and that never came. And Ivan, you are
right on the money. Bou Josh emailed me and said, hey, buddy,
(46:12):
guess what we've done this. It finally happened, we released it,
and um, at first I was like shoot, but then
I thought, you know what, We've got a nice bit
of trivia. Now it was bound to happen, and now
people have. It's It's almost like an easter egg, right
that listeners and fans can say, like, you know which
(46:34):
one they did twice? You're a true fan, you know
you know it's weird. Though, UM, at no point during
the research and recording of the Customs episode was I like,
this sounds really familiar? Or did we talk about this nothing,
no point whatsoever. Nope. So that might make the first
Customs episode the least memorable episode we've ever done. Perhaps
(46:56):
so Part two you can look for in the second
part of this sweet coming out from Von wherein he
made a list of all of our band names over
the years. He also made a list of your puns.
I am not puny. I take issue with that. I'll
talk about it in the next episode. Great, that's a
great set up if you want to get in touch
(47:17):
with us, like lev On Evon and what is his
son's name? Did he say. He didn't say, but Evan
and son. Yeah, it'sund like a funeral home. Uh. You
can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast
or hang out with me at Josh um Clark. You
can hang out with us on Facebook at Facebook dot
com slash Stuff you Should Know and check out Chuck
(47:39):
at Charles W. Chuck Bryant and me it's super Josh
Clark both on Facebook. We're on Instagram. We're on social
media that hasn't even been invented yet. Plus, you can
send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff
Works dot com and has always joined us at our
home on the web, the newly updated Stuff you Should
Know dot com. For more on this and thousands of
(48:04):
other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com. H
This episode of Stuff You Should Know is sponsored by Squarespace.
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Squarespace website. Go to squarespace dot com and set your
website apart. Welcome to you Stuff you Should Know from
House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
(00:27):
I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W Chuck Bryant. This
is Stuff you Should Know the podcast, not the least
of which is membered by Jerry. That was exciting. I
have a bad cold. Yeah, my brain is not functioning
quite right. Yeah, but this is not the old days
where you have the six weeks of cold. Right, Hopefully
(00:52):
this will be just a couple of episodes, right, bear
with us, yeah, bear, But to make up for it,
I have all my teeth finally, right. It's just this
constant pendulum, that's right, swings from one of us to
the other. Got all toothed up yesterday, feeling good. The
eight months is over. Like, click your teeth together for everybody,
(01:12):
I'm afraid to Okay, you're like they're precious. Yeah, I
gotta treat them very carefully and I got fitted for
a bite guard, so I when I grind my teeth
at night doesn't keep happening. So things are looking good.
Everything's coming up, Chuck. That's funny. Jumy has a bike
guard too, from grinding her teeth. So two of the
most significant people in my life on their teeth, both
(01:35):
kind on their teeth. Did she bought her fingernaut? I don't.
Does she bought her fingers? Yeah? I take out my
stresses on my body. Yeah, those are short nails. Do
they hurt? Do they just ache? Because sometimes if I
overdo it, they do. If I when I cut my
nails and I file them a little too short, they
just ache for a day or so afterward. Yeah. To
(01:56):
have it, I've always done it. Yeah, like since you
can remember. Yeah, I wore that bitter polish for a
while when I was a kid to try and I
just cheered right through it. Yeah. It was like, oh,
it's so better. Still must bite if I kind of
like it in a weird way. Yeah, the part of
me that hates myself loves that taste. So weird. Well, Chuck,
(02:17):
Let's talk about another habit, a habit that humans have
had for a very long time. Uh. And that is
the habit of using animals as models for humans, as
stand ins for humans when we want to test new things,
find out new things about ourselves, like will this kill me?
Let's put it on an animal, right, does the heart
(02:38):
or the lungs actually pump blood around the body. Let's
cut a dog open and find out that we've been
doing it for a very long time. Yeah, And this
article came with its own own intro story, which was
pretty interesting. I thought, Yeah, we haven't done one of
those in a long time. They used to be like
a standard aspect of this. Yeah. Now we just babble
(02:58):
the yeah. Yeah, we just share what's going on in
our lives or day pretty much. Sorry, everybody. It must
be a real letdown that I think about it. Should
we do this though? All right, Well, let's go back
in time, back to seven and there was a company
called a pharma company called S. E. Matson Gil out
(03:19):
of Tennessee, and they had a great, I almost want
to say, wonder drug. Uh. There was an antibiot antibiotic
that worked really well in its powdered form, and people
started clamoring and said, we love this stuff, but sure
it would be great if we could put it as
a as a drop under my tongue instead. Right, I
(03:39):
like liquids. I'm not big on powders like that weirdo
Richard Petty who just takes goodies powder like me. Love
that dude. That's my go to. It's got caffeine. That's
what helps. Yeah, for migraines too. Really, caffeine is a
big one. Yeah, Emily can't do them, but that it's
my I couldn't either. It's my hangover cure. I see that,
I say that out loud. Did Yeah it works, wonders.
(04:02):
I thought, bloody Mary's where you're hangover again? I'm not.
I'm not a hair of the dogger. That's what it
was inventive for, you know. Yeah, all right, I'm getting
a self check. I apologis. Uh. So they decided we
need a liquid form of this. What was the name
of the drug, uh, sul fannel man. I just had
it sulfanlu minde yes or stulf vanillamide. I think sulfanla
(04:26):
mind Okay, that's how I would say it if I
were in nineteen thirties seven Tennessee, and well, uh, they
had a chemist named Harold Cole Watkins who went to
the lab and said, all right, let's dissolve this stuff
and something called uh dieth eileen glycolthlen that one I
know worked pretty well. So they added a little raspberry
flavoring to make it palatable, and they said, it smells
(04:47):
pretty good, tastes pretty good, looks pretty good. Let's sell it. Yeah,
and they did. They sold a bunch of it, and
just like one one month after mixing up a batch
of the stuff, they had six thirty three shipments all
over of the country because there was a huge demand
for this, I mean, like syl sylfanum I was already
an established drug. The idea of it being in some
(05:07):
sort of palatable form that was gangbusters. Everybody had syphilis
that they needed to take care of back then, and
this kind of thing would help and if it could
be a pleasant experience, well then great. And then uh
that was September when they made their first shipment. Right
by October, middle of October October eleventh, to be specific,
a group of doctors in Tulsa contacted the a m A,
(05:29):
the American Medical Association, and said, um, we think there's
something really wrong with this new mass and guild product,
which they called Sulfanila Mind Elixir or a lixer of
sulfanal of mind. Um, we think it's killing people actually
and killing them in one of the worst ways imaginable. Yeah,
it wasn't a just go sleepy time. Now, it was
(05:51):
a pretty bad death. Right. You're writhing in agony, you're
probably puking your guts up. You're just you're dying from
from being poisoned. So the A M A got ahold
of some off and they said, you know what, the
actual drug is fine, but this, uh, the solution we
mix it with is the culprit. It is pure poison.
Who knew? Nobody knew. And the reason why no one
(06:12):
knew was because mass and Gill and Cole Watkins. Um there,
Harold Cole Watkins and his his group of chemists were
not obligated to test this stuff out. Yeah, well people
knew though. That was the one frustrating thing is studies
out that said this stuff was poison, and I guess
they just didn't read them right. They didn't research the literature,
which is a big deal. Um, But they also didn't
(06:35):
test it out on human or animal ahead of time. Uh.
And they again they just looked at the tech or
the appearance, the smell, a little bit of the taste,
but no one took a full dose of this apparently,
and um, people died. I think a hundred people died
in fifteen states in about a month or so before
they could get um the shipment's back. Yeah. I think
(06:57):
the FDA, the barely born f D A. Um, this
is one of its first actions was going and getting
this stuff. Yeah. And the president of the company said, uh,
you know, we haven't broken any laws because I guess
there weren't laws on the books at the time. And
the head chemist, um, very sadly killed himself because of this. Yeah. Um,
(07:18):
like the story goes from bad to worse and um,
that was pretty Japanese of him. Yeah you know, yeah,
we did. We do a full episode on that on
suicide on I mean Hardy Cary. But it had another
name too, right, Yeah, did we do that or did
we just mention it? I'm sure we just mentioned okay,
um yeah, I think in the Japanese Stragglers and probably
(07:41):
the samurai Yeah, and the revenge one. Yeah. Boy, it's
sorry to keep track these days, yeah, really really is.
So this led to a night Congress in the US
enacted the FDA Cosmetic Act, which said that you know what,
you need to test these drugs on animals, and that
therein sort of started, at least in the US, the
(08:05):
official like decree that you can and should do this, right,
But it has been going on a long time before that,
or Buddy Galen who we've talked about before, well even
further back than galen Um, if you look at the Greeks,
at least as far back as about five c UM.
The ancient Greeks were using animals for testing, poking around
(08:28):
figuring out how to how the human body works, and
there was this idea that there was an analogy between
all animals that humans shared like a lot of the
same physiology of all animals. And there was a great
disagreement among the Greeks in particular about whether that was true.
But it didn't stop guys like Aristotle Um and uh Aerosistratus, yeah,
(08:52):
and Hippocrates as well from basically poking around inside live animals,
which is the the where the term for animal testing
came from. The other terms vivisection. Vivisection is cutting something
open while it's still alive. Yes, specifically an animal, right
or is that no, you can vivisect humans, yeah, because
(09:15):
dissection occurs after death. Vivisection is like cutting open I
think technically surgery would be. But the idea behind vivisection
is that there's this is just for experimentation actually not
like let me heal that oregan right there, right, which,
by the way, go back and listen to our human
(09:35):
experimentation episode. That was a great one. I remember that one.
Uh So flash forward a bit to second century Rome
where our friend Galen, who we just talked about him
in a podcast Our lives stuff in UK and Ireland,
that's right, which hopefully people will hear him. Yes. Uh,
he was a medical specialist and he said, you know what,
(09:59):
I going to do a demonstration in the public. I'm
gonna rent a hall. Yeah, basically, I'm gonna get this
pig and I'm gonna prove that we are all a
bundle of nerves by snipping certain nerves of this pig.
You want to see him not squeal anymore, watch me
snip this nerve. And uh, it was all planned in
this philosophers, pretty popular guy. He had punching cookies out.
(10:23):
He was really excited for this day. Philosopher that was
in attendance named Alexander. Uh Demascenus, Yeah, Demastinus, one of
those two. He Um said, you know what this is,
bs Um, doesn't prove a thing. And in fact, none
of these demonstrations prove anything, because that's a pig and
we're humans. Why are you bothering? Right? And apparently the
(10:46):
Romans had adopted from the Greeks the idea that empirical
evidence didn't really prove anything. If you saw something, it
doesn't mean it was true, right, which is a weird philosophy.
I'd like to understand a little more. I'm sure there's
a lot more to it than that, but that's just
like such a completely radically different paradigm from what we
have now. Um, the paradigm of science we're seeing is indeed,
(11:09):
believing that it requires empirical evidence. Used to be the opposite,
And that was Alexander's big objection, like, hey man, you
can cut that pig's nerve all day long, and sure
I saw it, and sure it had that effect, but
it doesn't prove anything. And Galen was like, I hate you,
I hate that idea, I hate Aristotle. I'm leaving because
Aristotle was apparently somebody who said, Yeah, I've I've poked
(11:34):
around in a pig or two in my time, and
I've concluded that the heart and that the brain is
the center. This idea that a nerve connected to the
brain could control anything is hogwash, if you'll forgive the punt.
Aristotle is just a big dummy, the dumbest of them all. So, um,
Galen did, in fact say I'm leaving. He said, I'm
(11:54):
taking my medical bag and I'm going home. And then
everyone there was like, boa, I really want to see
this pig get cut apart. Please don't leave. He said, okay,
you guys, I'll do it. You twisted my arm, came
back in. Uh, performed the experiment in the demonstration, and
this was the one of the first recorded um examples
(12:16):
of experimenting on animals for science. Yeah, so the ball
was rolling. Yeah, And um, I don't know if Galen
hadn't done it first. And he he obviously hadn't done
it first because he came a few hundred years after
Aristotle who had done that. But if Aristotle hadn't done it,
eventually somebody who was curious enough would have grabbed a
dog or a chicken or something and just cut it
(12:38):
open and started looking at what was inside. Yeah, you know,
like it would have happened, but these are the people
who are recorded doing it first. Uh. Go forward in
time a bit to the late nineteenth century, and there
was a microbiologist from Germany, Robert Coke, and he got
he got some some anthrax. He got some blood from
(12:58):
cows killed by anthrax. Started looking at it under a
microscope and said, you know what, something in there looks
funny to me. That might be the anthrax. So let
me take that and put it in a mouse and
see what happens. The mouse died, and he said, I'm
onto something here. I'm pretty sure that was the anthrax. Uh,
A big deal. It was a big deal. Again, using
(13:20):
an animal to experiment in order to further human understanding
and protect human health in life, that's right. And those
are the big eats that people have used animals for. Yeah,
and that was actual, like medically, let me try and
cure a disease. Yeah, not like the early guys like whoa,
what is this? To what happens if I sever this? Yeah?
(13:43):
But it it went on my ancient Greek impression Um.
The point I was trying to make, I guess was
later on in the nineteen fifties, people started, and notably
this Russian Dmitri h Bell Jeff, started using research on animals,
not necessarily for curing diseases, but to study behavior. Right. Yeah,
(14:09):
we talked about them in our Animal Domestication episode. Yeah,
so what he he had the great idea for these
cute little silver foxes. He's like, I might like one
of those is a pet. I have a niece who
would love one of those. Man, have you seen those
fox videos or then crying and walk around crying well
or calling or whatever. And they shake their little tail
when you scratch their belly, and I don't know if
(14:31):
I've seen that one. It's very cute. It makes sort
of like a little purring, little chirpy purr and wiggle
their tail and wag their tail, and it's just like, oh, man,
you're the perfect combination of dog and cats. Foxes are
pretty cute, so we want to team them. Well, that's
exactly what he did too, And he thought, I know
that domestication usually takes many, many, many years, but let
(14:54):
me see if I can do it in like years
and Chuck. Speaking of behavioral studies, one of the most
famous of all using animals was Pavlov's dogs, And I
was researching it and I had no idea. Pavlov didn't
just like bring a bell for his dogs to make
him salivate. He surgically altered his dogs. He went and
(15:15):
got their salivary glands and put them on the outside
of their faces so that he could collect saliva samples
more easily. And he created remember that cow in Athens
that had a porthole in it, same thing for the dogs,
so that he could collect gastric juices digestive juices for
samples as well. So what you're saying is that he
(15:35):
was a crazy madman. Yeah, yeah, I guess so. I
think the larger point here is that humans have been
just grabbing animals or even breeding animals, for the sole
purpose of using them to understand things a little more, right,
whether it be cutting them open to see how anatomy works,
(15:55):
to using them as um as for medical experiments, to
de termined that um anthrax is actually blood borne and
can kill you. Um two behavioral studies, right, And we
should point out that at work he was able to
weed out and by weed out, I mean coal, and
by col we mean kill, and by kill we mean
(16:17):
probably break their necks. Yeah. I think that's one of
the big problems with with this talking about this stuff
is so many euphemisms are used, like you just you
just demonstrated so Um. What he did was he was
able to weed out the foxes that weren't his tame,
and eventually he ended up with the fox that was,
by all accounts domesticated, a nice little pet. It said, Dmitri.
(16:42):
You and it's not just animals, um, that are cute
that we contame. Um. Animals and what most people would
say are roughly the lower end of the spectrum as
far as life is concerned, are very frequently used, like
um nematodes, fruit flies, UM. They come into use largely
because they have some similar processes. Like if you're studying
(17:07):
a very ancient process or a very ancient part of
the body like um insulin regulation, that you're gonna find
it throughout the animal kingdom. It's gonna be pretty widespread.
So the idea is, if you can track insulin regulation
and a fruit fly, you could conceivably extrapolate those findings
onto a human and a humans insulin regulation. And the
(17:30):
advantage of a fruit fly or a nematode is that
they're really easy to breed and they reproduce very quickly.
So if you're like Dmitri BALLETV and you're studying foxes,
it took him twenty five years to go through twenty generations,
it would take you roughly a month, I would guess
to go through about twenty generations of fruit flies. So
(17:51):
therefore you can track mutations much more quickly, much more inexpensively.
So UM, the fruit flies, the humatodes, other again lesser
life forms UM have been used extensively in medical testing
as well. And they and they count, they qualify. It's
a live organism that's being used for experimentation purposes. Yeah,
(18:12):
and uh, it kind of depends on what you're trying,
what your aim is, what your goal is, to what
animal you do use, because you can't just use any
animal for anything. UM. And here's a fun fact. I
did not know that the armadillo is an animal that
can actually get Hanson's disease a k A. Leprosy. We
knew that we talked about in the leprosy episode. I
(18:32):
don't remember mentioning the armadillo. I am scared to death
of armadillos now because of really oh yeah, when I
see it, I just look at him like leprosy. You
don't hug him on any longer, you know, and like
you'll see him on the side of the road, you know,
hit by a car or something like that. Texas, I
always double check, um. Well here in Georgia too, Yeah,
a little bit. Um. I always check to make sure
(18:54):
that my air recirculator is on when I pass them by.
That like the leprosy didn't waft into my car as
I drove past the roadkill that I was damaged by
the leprosy episode. Uh well, they actually have the perfect
body temperature to allow study on vaccines for leprosy. Um
(19:15):
And speaking of by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt you,
but I just found out last night that koalas Carrie
chlamydia really and transmitted sexually and can die from it.
Oh man, yeah, and are actually partially endangered in some
ways because they have chlamydia. M think about that next
time you want to hug from that cute little critter,
(19:36):
you know, well, they'll tear your face off too. Uh.
Should we take a little break here, all right, let's
take a break and we're kind of we're gonna come
back and talk more about the different animals used and
why Chuck. Before we get back to I want to
(20:10):
say this is UM this this episode and the other
one that's coming out Thursday. Yeah, and they're kind of
done in conjunction with these guys, UM Joe and Tim
who run a site called primer Stories dot com and
UM they do seasons. They're like animators, um web dudes,
(20:32):
and it shows they know what they're doing and they've
basically taken They'll they'll take essays. I wrote an essay,
then they take it and they break it up into
chunks and they animate it. Right, so as you're going
scrolling down, you're you're reading, but you're also experiencing, um,
the the art, the animation that really kind of brings
(20:54):
out the ideas of each one. It's really really neat site.
They they contacted us after our San Francisco show last year,
you know, early this year, and UM, they said, hey,
do you want to do one of these? And I
went and looked and I was amazed and said, yes,
I totally do. So you can go, UM check out
the s A I wrote at a primer stories dot
(21:16):
com slash s y s K and that one is
the one we're releasing after this one. Correct, Well, it
ties into both. It's it's kind of this essay about
UM humans changing attitude toward animal rights. But it was
fun to do and they're cool. They're cool dudes for sure,
and I like what they're doing. UM. This is the
fourth season, fourth season, nice plug, nice work. Thanks all right.
(21:40):
So we were talking about UM using different animals and
how if it's you know, fruit fly or a nematode,
people don't get their hackles up too much. No, it's true. UM,
if it is a rat or a mouse, people start
getting their hackles up a little more. UM and mice
are very famously used. A lot um of our genes
(22:04):
overlap with this mouse. UM specifically this one, which is
it mouse or amuse genus mice mices genus mice, So
that's the one that they use most often that has
the overlap UH, and their cell structure and organ organization
are basically the same as ours, so UM they do
(22:27):
a lot of testing with these mice as a result,
everything from you know, disease and stuff to genetics. Two
behavioral that they kind of run the gamut right on mice, Yeah,
for sure, and from that point up they tend to,
I think, run the gamut. Some are a little more
specific than others, like beagles apparently. Yeah, really come in
(22:47):
handy when you're testing prostate cancer um or muscular dystrophy both. Yeah. Um,
because they can contract those or develop those, so they
make great and mole models. Yeah. The these cats because
their site and they're hearing and their balance. I have
to ask, how are you feeling right now about this episode? Well,
(23:11):
what do you mean like about the topic? Uh? Because
you're holding it together really well? You mean I'm not
crying yet? Yeah? Yeah, I've checked my emotions out of
this one. I think this two parts sweet will get
points across. I'm just relying on that. I'll get weepy
(23:31):
later tonight. Do you remember the Secret of Nim? Yeah? Sure,
I had forgotten what the secret was, or I don't
think it ever dawned on me what the secret really
wasn't I went back and was reading about the those
were mice, right, there were rats and the secret of Nim.
Well we probably shouldn't say, would that be a spoiler? Yeah?
I think so it's like the spoiler, like that's in
(23:53):
the title. What if the secret of nim was that
Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense was dead all along?
You know what I think was an even Wait is
that a spoiler? Yeah? I think it was. It was
years ago at least. If you haven't seen the sixth
Cents by now, t s for you go see the others,
though a lot of people haven't seen the others. Sixth Sense,
(24:16):
the one thing cool Kidman, that was good Man. That
was great, very atmospheric Moody film, that one. And the Orphanage. Yeah, yeah,
it's fantastic. The Orphanage is maybe even the better of
the two. Yeah. Yeah. Uh So monkeys primates, um, well,
non human primates, we should say, specifically, the maccaque monkey
(24:38):
is used a lot because there, uh there's a lot
of them, and they're widely distributed and uh have a
robust population. So you know, they made a lot of
advances into neuroscience thanks to the maccaque monkey. And then, um,
there's some animals that will just do because they contain flesh,
like pigs and goats are used a lot, and what's
(25:00):
called live tissue trauma training, which is exactly what it
sounds like. Um, it's used to train battlefield medics in
the military. Uh, and the Coast Guard apparently, and um
the animals innesthetized deeply to like surgical plane levels and
um shot or blown up or um just weird stuff
(25:26):
done to it to stimulate a battlefield trauma so that
medic can do live what it's called live tissue trauma training,
so they can save a life on the battlefield. Yeah,
but then they euthanize the they kill the animal afterward.
But yes, on the battlefield. That's the whole I mean,
that's the whole point there. And they're saying there's no
substitute for that, well, which is sort of the what
(25:50):
they scientists and doctors say. Well, well we'll get into
all that, okay. Uh. One thing we should mention though,
is that if you look for labels say this was
not tested on animals. Uh, it's sort of like the
whole free range chicken myth. Um, it's not exactly what
you think it is, right, Well, free range chickens, it
(26:12):
doesn't have to have like a porch attached to the structure.
They don't even have to have access to it, and
you just have to have the door open so they
can leave if they want. Um. But you have people
have images I think of these chickens running around the fields,
idyllic countryside. Yeah, but they don't they they're in the
barn where the food is and they kind of don't leave.
But the doors they are, so they're technically free range
(26:33):
unless something's changed. When I worked in the chicken industry,
those sad that sad year or whatever it was, I
would guess absolutely nothing's changed. Probably so, But if you
look for labels to say cruelty free or not tested
on animals, it may not mean what you think because
technically there's no oversight on a label like that, and
it could mean that we did not in the final
(26:56):
product of this cosmetic tested on animals. We didn't tell
us this rouge, but all the raw ingredients that went
into this from our suppliers were tested on animals. Or
back in the sixties or seventies, they tested these same
ingredients on animals, and there's no need for us to
test them again. So now we can say not tested
(27:17):
on animals even though these things, right, these things were
tested on animals years back. UM, And actually China has
changed things recently, as um, the West was getting further
and further away. I think the EU banned imports of
of anything that have been tested on animals cosmetics wise. Um,
(27:38):
and China has gone the opposite direction. It is mandated
that anything important into China cosmetics wise must have been
tested on animals. So kind of reset things here in
the West because there's a lot of Western companies like
I want in on that Chinese market, and China saying well,
you got to test your like, the whole thing on
animals before it comes in here. Interest thing. Uh So
(28:03):
here's the deal. Over the twentieth century, Um, we've made
a lot of medical advances. Life expectancy, this is kind
of a neat stat has gone up about three months
per year in the twentieth century, largely due to stuff
like this testing for disease. Well, yeah, people who are
(28:23):
advocates of animal testing say that would not have happened
maybe at all, had we not used animals. And life
expectancy was extended three months a year from I think
like eighteen forty to two thousand six or something like
that every year. UM. And and that was advanced by
(28:46):
finding things like antibiotics and vaccines, and all of the
things that um not just extend the human life, but
make the the extended years more enjoyable as well more healthy. UM.
And that's a huge rallying cry for people who point
to animal testing and say this is this is necessary
(29:07):
and has to continue. And actually there is a two
thousand eleven poll of biomedical researchers by Nature, which is
no slouch of a scientific journal, and they found that
agreed with the the sentence use of animals in research
is essential. There's two eleven. So that's not that sentiment
isn't going anywhere. No, I think that's probably pretty much accurate. Today.
(29:31):
On the other side of the coin, you have animal
rights activists and and even if you're not an activist,
just your average Joe on the street or Jane UM
might say, you know what, this is unethical. Uh does
a lot of harm, it's wasteful, and there are better
ways to do it. In fact, some people say it's
not even doing the job that it should be doing.
(29:53):
For instance, Uh, they can cure cancer and mice, and
we have been able to do this for a while,
can't cure it in humans. UM. Of the HIV AIDS
vaccines that were tested uh successfully on primates, they don't
work on humans, and one of them may have even
made humans more susceptible. Yeah yeah, so it's uh, you know,
(30:15):
there's two very strong sides to this argument. The f
d A has said that nine tenths of all drugs
and development don't work in humans after they worked in
animals because you just can't tell, right, And actually I
looked that up there. It's it's a little bit of
a fallacy. It's more like fail in clinical trials. But
(30:38):
that's all pre clinical trials that so not just animal
testing but also non animal testing where it passed that
the first stages when it made it to clinical trials,
of all drugs failed to work or actually harmed humans.
There's another side of the coin, though, too, Chuck, how
many sides are on this coin. There's it's like one
(30:59):
of those hundreds to die that you see a D
and D but never know how to use. Um. There
are probably a lot of drugs out there that harmed
animals and were shelved right then didn't make it into
clinical trials because the animals were harmed, that may not
have harmed humans that actually could have cured things. So
there's people saying no, we we we need to be
(31:21):
testing on humans because we're using this for humans. That's
that's what some some prob I guess protesters against animal
testing would say. And then, um, another thing that I
saw is that you you tend to think like, Okay, well,
it's advancing science, so I can't really get in the
(31:41):
way of that. But there are One of the critiques
of that argument is not all the science is is good,
that's being done and like a lot of animal lives.
If you agree that animal lives are are valuable, and
but that use seeing an animal life to advance scientific
(32:02):
understanding to protect human health and life is worthy, it's
a worthy use of an animal, then that you would
also probably agree with the idea that wasting the animal's
life and scientific testing is unforgivable. Right. So there was
a survey in two thousand nine p l OS one
Proceedings of the Library of Science one, the Journal of
(32:23):
two one Animal Studies. I found that forty one percent
failed to even state hypothesis are objective to the tests
umtent failed to describe the statistic methods used uh in
the study, didn't randomize scent, didn't use blinding, and those
are basic scientific efforts that you have to make in
(32:45):
any experiment, right, those are very basic um, which means
that those things were wasted, which means those animals lives
were wasted. And the suggestion is is that a lot
of publicly funded science is just not very good science
and it's wasting the lives of the animals involved. Well,
that's sad. I'm starting to get emotional. Okay, all right,
(33:08):
let's take a break then and we'll come back and
talk a little bit about our old buddy, Charles D
Chuck D. Darwin. Alright, so I teased everybody with Charles Darwin.
(33:38):
Oh is that who you're talking about? Which is what
I do every Halloween. I dress up as Charles Darwin
and tease the local teens. Oh what are you going
to dress up as for our show in d C
on October twenty night. I don't know, but I'm glad
you mentioned that, because we're doing a show at the
Lincoln Theater and we're turning it into a Halloween ball.
It's a Halloween bash, not even a ball. Yeah, it's
(34:02):
a wrong above the ball, including a reading of a
of a Halloween story like we do just for their
ears only. Yeah, Plus we'll be dressed up. We're encouraging
everyone who comes to be dressed up. Maybe I'll go
to Charles Darwin. And as far as I know, it's
an all ages show, but it could get spooky and
our shows do get a little blue. So just f y,
(34:22):
I you've been worn So Charles Darwin, who I made
dress up as I've got. I'm pretty sure I know
what I'm going as I'd rather not reveal it at
the time. Um, he was kind of in on this
game a long time ago, and he was he loved animals,
but he also wanted to study animals, but he also
wanted to treat them humanly while he studied animals. Sounds
(34:47):
sounds like Charles Darwin kind of approach. Yes. Uh So
there was a eight seventy four there was like people
were actually starting to get in trouble for some of
these things. Uh. In eighteen seven, any for these scientists
were actually put on trial for torturing dogs because they
wanted to see how absent and alcohol affected their nervous system.
(35:09):
So they cut them open and exposed them to these liquids.
They just dowsed them, And is what I what I'm
taking from I have no idea, I guess, so they're
actually acquitted. But um, it sort of brought things into
the UH in the front of everyone's minds and Darwin.
People were saying, let's not do this at all, and
Darwin stepped in and said he was a little more
(35:31):
moderate and said, you know what, let's craft a bill
here in the United Kingdom where you can do this,
but do it humanely. And that resulted in the Cruelty
to Animals Act of eight. It's pretty great. It was advancement,
it was, but the UK actually has long led the
way in the West for animal rights. Um, even even
(35:53):
before that, as we'll see, they they were trying to
protect animals, as we'll see in the next episod So
that's right. And then a little later in ur the
University's Federation of Animal Welfare said, let's get these two
dudes zoologist and a microbiologist, Russell and Birch, and just
do a lot of research, guys, and come back with
(36:15):
some findings that we can use. And boy did they. Yeah.
They they were like, there's a lot better that we
can do in protecting animals. They um, scientists are typically
dumb and can only remember things through a literation. So
these guys came up with the three RS, something that
could be put on a p s a poster um.
(36:36):
The three RS. I'm just teasing about the scientist thing,
our replacement, reduction and refinement. Right, yes, so your first
goal is to to find a replacement of the animal.
Is there any alternative to the animal in this experiment? Yeah, well, like, uh,
a sentient animal with a not like with a worm
(36:57):
perhaps instead of a mouse, or you know, if you
can find uh willing robot. Right, you know that it's
the bill. The second one's reduction. You want to reduce
the number of animals used to the absolute minimum. You
don't want to have any spare bang utangs hanging around.
You want to know how many you're gonna use, and uh,
(37:20):
those are the ones that you can kill. Correct and
then finally refine, which means and and this is you know,
sort of the opposite of what you were talking about
with those awful stats that you said, like, let's refine
this and at least get your technique down. Uh so
well that the suffering is minimized to its bare minimum
(37:42):
as well the waste is reduced. Yeah yeah, Um, and
that that uh, that was nine that Russell and Birch
released the three RS. This is two thousand nine. That
that one study I cited was conducted years later. So, uh, Peter,
you know the people for the Ethical Treatment of Animals,
We've talked about them quite a bit on the show.
(38:04):
They are down with the three RS, of course, but
they say, you know what, that's not enough, though. We
have a lot of studies that show that they're way
better ways of doing things these days than using animals
with the computer modeling that we have now and software
and humans. Yeah, and um, they're they've figured out techniques
(38:25):
using stem cells um to grow organs or organs cells
or like say, skin cells in vitro, and then exposing
them to the chemicals you want to test, and then
not only will you have your reaction or non reaction,
you'll also have it with like a human human cells.
(38:48):
So it's not like, oh, it messed this rabbits face
up pretty bad. Well, we'll just assume that it will
mess up a human skin as well. It's you know,
this stuff really burned through that that human skin tissue
that we sent the sized, So now we know for
sure not to give it to humans. There's also something
called because a big objection to that is well, that's
(39:08):
just a it's a skin. It's a group of skin
cells in vitro that doesn't really replicate you know, these
really intricate interplays that make up organs and systems of organs.
And there's a company out called um OH. I don't
remember what they're called, but their invention is organ on
a chip. It's amazing, dude. I watched this video about
it last night, which that's the only way it could
(39:32):
be better. It's if you could eat it afterwards, but
it'd be pretty messed up if you did so. It's
like a USB stick size module. That's the word I'm
going with. It's transparent and um say, the long on
a chip has some branching stuff, and inside there is
a layer of um lung cells and the that replicate
(39:57):
and simulate human lung So you have human lung cells
growing in the and arranged in the way that they
would in the human lung. And then the this device
allows you to pass air over the top and blood
over the top and introduce bacteria and introduce white blood
cells and study what they do. So you're replicating the
(40:18):
function of a human lung on this little thing, which
is all simulation. It is, but it's a real simulation,
Like it's it's using real lung cells and they're functioning
like a lung normally would, except you don't have to
you don't have to use it. You don't have to
say here and and inhale this. We'll just pass this
antibiotic across the lung cells and it will treat it
(40:42):
like the human lung would. It's amazing. And then yeah,
if you could eat it afterwards, eat the human lung
cells with some guacamali, you'd be like this, this is
the circle of life is complete. Well, that's sort of
one of the big points so that Peter and a
lot of organizations uses that we're we're so vans now
with our computer modeling and these simulations that they're actually
(41:03):
they are better ways than like it's sort of archaic
to experiment on an animal like these are not only
cruelty free, but it's smarter and better, Right, that's the
argument they make. Yeah, and I mean the statistics cut
both ways. Like if you look at Peter's stats, they're
like animal models are predictive. It's in this dismal range
(41:27):
right for you know, human outcomes, and then the people
who are in favor of animal testing stay, well, these
these computer models are actually the ones that have dismal results.
So both sides. I guess it's just too new, maybe
it's unproven. Yeah, but there does seem to be a
movement a foot in uh bio medicine to replace as
(41:48):
much as possible computer models with animals with computer models. Yeah. Uh.
Some of the other things that animal rights groups lobby for,
things like, well how about you do like CT scans
or m r s you're not actually harming the animal,
or this thing called micro dosing where you actually give
humans just very very small doses of these medicines that
(42:13):
won't be enough to hurt them if things don't work out,
but you could tell if it's going to be effective
or not. Yeah, it still produces that reaction on a
molecular level. It's just not going to have a system
wide toxic effect on it. That's pretty that's pretty neat.
Um and and they're there. There's some change, but at
the same time there's also um some digging in on
(42:37):
on both sides as well, Like, for example, with that
live tissue trauma training. Um, there was a there's a
movement to replace uh, any live animal with a dummy
or a mannequin or something like that. And the people
who are proponents of using animals and live tissue trauma
training say, man, there's something that can happen to a
(42:58):
battlefield medic during common at and that's called freezing. When
they're presented with a human being with you know, a
major trauma, they can just sit there and freeze and
freak out because this is the first time they've been
exposed to it. One of the aspects of you know,
blowing the leg off of a pig is that this
person is having to work on a pig. And yeah,
(43:19):
it's a pig, but it's a live pig. It's not
a right exactly, and maybe they made they made the
person care for the pig for like a week first,
so that it has even more Well, I just made
that up, but you could you could see how the
how that would like that would be tough to replace.
That's a tough one to argue with. But I think
ultimately the question is race chuck um, And this is
(43:41):
what we're gonna address in the next episode. Is is
probably the largest question of all and is do humans
have or have humans ever had the right to use
animals for our own means? And that's uh, we'll talk
about that one on the next episode. Boy, that's a
nice cliffhanger, I think, so too well done. Do we
(44:03):
have listener mail this one? Yeah? And you know what,
not only that, we have a two part listener mail
awesome that has its own cliffhanger. Man. All right, well,
let's get to it. So if you want to know
more about animal testing, you can type that word in
the search part how stuff works dot com and it
will bring up this excellent article. And since I said
search bar, it's time for part one of listener Mail.
(44:27):
That's right. This one was so robust. It's an unprecedented
to part from Evan, not Ivan, but Evan, will you
grow up to be a good man? I hope? So
now that's Levi on. Oh yeah, well the else silent
um and those were weren't the right words anyway, but
(44:47):
it's adorable. All right, here we go. First off, guys,
gotta say you're not only my favorite podcast, but you're
also my ten year old son's favorite podcast. Listen to
every episode at least twice how about that. And my
son is also a big fan of your TV show
and the animated shorts why they're in deep. However, my
(45:07):
beautiful fiance is not. In fact, there have been times
when I will be sitting next to her and she's
reading a book and I'll have my headphones listening to
the podcast so I don't disturb her, and I'll burst
out laughing like a crazy person. In her words, uh
this quote crazy end quote. Behavior of mine is directly
(45:28):
uh related to listening to you two, So thanks for
that anyway. One of the reasons are right is to
call your attention. You said on the Sugar It Powers
the Earth podcast, Chuck says, one day we're gonna rerecord
a show and not realize it, we're gonna hear about it. Well,
you managed to do it. You probably heard from someone
else by now. But you have covered the topic of
(45:49):
customs twice, the most recent one and all gets the
previous one in September. Don't get me wrong, both were great.
Honestly think that both of you legit only forgot. I
was waiting for either of you to acknowledge at the
second time, and that never came. And Ivan, you are
right on the money. Bou Josh emailed me and said, hey, buddy,
(46:12):
guess what we've done this. It finally happened, we released it,
and um, at first I was like shoot, but then
I thought, you know what, We've got a nice bit
of trivia. Now it was bound to happen, and now
people have. It's It's almost like an easter egg, right
that listeners and fans can say, like, you know which
(46:34):
one they did twice? You're a true fan, you know
you know it's weird. Though, UM, at no point during
the research and recording of the Customs episode was I like,
this sounds really familiar? Or did we talk about this nothing,
no point whatsoever. Nope. So that might make the first
Customs episode the least memorable episode we've ever done. Perhaps
(46:56):
so Part two you can look for in the second
part of this sweet coming out from Von wherein he
made a list of all of our band names over
the years. He also made a list of your puns.
I am not puny. I take issue with that. I'll
talk about it in the next episode. Great, that's a
great set up if you want to get in touch
(47:17):
with us, like lev On Evon and what is his
son's name? Did he say. He didn't say, but Evan
and son. Yeah, it'sund like a funeral home. Uh. You
can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast
or hang out with me at Josh um Clark. You
can hang out with us on Facebook at Facebook dot
com slash Stuff you Should Know and check out Chuck
(47:39):
at Charles W. Chuck Bryant and me it's super Josh
Clark both on Facebook. We're on Instagram. We're on social
media that hasn't even been invented yet. Plus, you can
send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff
Works dot com and has always joined us at our
home on the web, the newly updated Stuff you Should
Know dot com. For more on this and thousands of
(48:04):
other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com. H
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