September 11, 2024 • 13 mins
Who is Uncle Sam anyway? Was it a real person or just a marketing exercise? And why does he refuse to go away? Listen in to find out.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, welcome to the short Stuff, Josh, Chuck, Jerry Dave.
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I could not, for the life of me find out
where we have talked about Uncle Sam before, and it
had to be one of our videos. But I couldn't
find it. I checked a million times over and it
was not a short stuff. I couldn't find it anywhere.
But I know for sure. The only reason I know
this is because we've talked about it.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
It had to be our Fourth of July special that
we did with the Onion and The Daily Show.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That keeps coming back to hanas. Huh. Yeah, because we
had another one the other day that was I think
in there. Yeah, I bet you it was.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, it had to be right.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, but who cares. Let's tell the real story Josh
and Chuck style.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, we're going to talk about Uncle Sam. If you
don't know who Uncle Sam is, then by god, you're
not much of an American.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, I mean, how would you describe Uncle Sam? A cartoon,
a drawing of a man become synonymous and a symbol
of the United States of America A logo almost.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, if you've ever seen somebody wearing a red, white
and blue stove top hat, or a top hat with
stars on it, that's an Uncle Sam hat.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You ever see somebody wearing an American flag suit, they're
basically doing their best Uncle Sam. You ever see anybody
with a beard, they're pretending their Uncle Sam.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah. If you've ever seen a picture of all those
things put together and a guy pointing at you on
a poster saying I want you to do whatever, join
the army or give money for war bonds, that's Uncle Sam.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah. So our conception of Uncle Sam, the one you
just described, is thanks to a great illustrator who was
working around the time America entered the First World War.
Same one of the great names of all time, James
Montgomery Flag with Jeez love that guy's name. But he
was an amazing illustrator and painter, and he painted that
(02:10):
iconic image of Uncle Sam looking out from the poster,
pointing at you the viewer, that I want you. I
remember the Simpsons where it was like the immigration episode,
Homer put up a poster. He asked that Pooh if
he could put up a poster in his convenience store,
and it was Uncle Sam saying I want you out.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Do you remember that on h No, that's funny though.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And Pooh took the took the occasion to talk about
how much he loved America, and Homer goes, wow, you
know what a poo I'm really gonna miss you.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Uh, that's that's great. You should say it as a
poo though.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Right, Nold.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Not the funny thing about this poster that came around
in nineteen seventeen, and we'll get this is not the
first incarnation of Uncle Sam, but it's the most amous
that we know now. But James Montgomery flag supposedly was
inspired by a British Minister of War, Lord Kitchener, but
he used his own handsome face as the actual model.
(03:12):
And if you look up a picture of James Montgomery flag,
you're in you know, he put wrinkles, he was younger
in a gray beard. But if you picture that guy
with that gray beard and hair, it's Uncle.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Sam, yeah for sure. And Neat Yeah, it was like
there was a Lord Kitchener poster was essentially the exact
same thing of drawing of Lord Kitchener looking out from
the poster pointing at you, saying he wants you to
sign up to help. And both of these posters were
propaganda posters. From World War One, that the one that
flag designed of Uncle Sam had been printed four million times,
(03:46):
four million copies of a poster that fair of Fawcet
poster hadn't even been printed four million times. That's how
that's how successful this poster was, right, And this was
all just before the war was over, So in about
years it was printed four million times. The thing is,
I'm sure there's people out there that like, well, yeah,
it's the origin of Uncle Sam, and friend, you'd be wrong.
(04:09):
Uncle Sam had been around for at least about one
hundred years by the time James Montgomery Flagg made his
iconic poster, and I say, we take a break, we
come back and we talk about that very issue. If
you want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen
to Suffus stuffus.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
No, all right, So the origins of Uncle Sam. There
was a story that many people believe for a long
time that it came about during the War of eighteen twelve,
and that it was named such. The characters name such
(05:01):
because of Uncle Sam Wilson, who was a meatpacker from
New York who supplied beef, these big barrels of beef
to the army for the War of eighteen twelve, they
had us stamped on them, and they called those barrels
of beef Uncle Sam's. That was published and republished many,
many times, starting in the New York Gazette in nineteen thirty,
(05:22):
leading to a congressional resolution in nineteen sixty one recognizing
Sam Wilson. But that is not the origins of Uncle Sam, right.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
No, I mean a lot of people think Sam Wilson
was the guy who started it all. I mean that
story everything comes together so close, like he really was
a real person, he really was working in the War
of eighteen twelve. The barrels of meat really were stamped us.
But some really dedicated historians won by the name of
(05:52):
Don Hickey from Wayne State College, another one named Christopher Philippo.
They both got to the bottom of this and found
that very very shortly before the Uncle Sam Wilson's story
could have happened, people were already using Uncle Sam as
a way of depicting or talking about the United States
(06:17):
of America.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
As a whole exactly. They found some actual proof proof
and from an eighteen ten diary from a sixteen year
old sailor on the USS Wasp where he read he
was seasick and not feeling so good, and he wrote,
I swear that Uncle Sam as they call him, would
certainly forever have lost the services of at least one sailor.
(06:39):
And that was in eighteen ten, So it was if
he was using it in a diary entry in eighteen ten,
that means it was what I would consider probably fairly
common usage at that point. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
That guy almost certainly didn't make that up in that
diary entry. Yeah, So Yeah. The thing is is, even
though Sam Wilson wasn't the actual direct inspiration for Uncle Sam,
he certainly helped kind of popularize it. I think he
probably his association with it in the story that came
(07:09):
from that probably took it from what may have just
been relegated to navy lingo that would have become archaic
to now it has a story and it's spread from there.
So even though he didn't inspire it, it's still like, yeah,
Uncle Sam Wilson definitely had a huge role in the
creation of the idea of Uncle Sam.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, there was a minister I believe
it Sam the real Sam Wilson's funeral that there was.
He wrote a letter that said that he had often
talked with Wilson quote about the circumstances which led to
the singular transfer of his popular name to the United States.
So it sounds like what that's saying is that Sam
(07:52):
Wilson even knew that, yes.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
For sure, and went along with it, right. He's like, yeah, yeah,
it was, and he'd look furtively around. So there was
another character that I hadn't heard of, a guy named
Brother Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Did you heard of him? I had not. I didn't think.
But then I also think that we may have brought
this up because those pictures looked very familiar.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, they did not to me. But there was a
character named Brother Jonathan who was who predated Uncle Sam
by a couple of decades. Brother Jonathan was the original
personification of America around the time of the Revolution. He
dressed like a revolutionary cat, with a tri cornered hat
and those tails and the coat with tails and everything.
(08:37):
But he was much more rambunctious, much younger. I saw
editorial cartoon of him forcibly pouring a bunch of French
brandy down the throat of John Bull, the character who
personified Great Britain and still does, And he was around
for decades, and eventually he kind of handed the baton
(09:01):
off to Uncle Sam, which is really interesting because it
happened as a time when America was starting to mature.
The character personifying America went from a younger, rambunctious, brandy
forcing character to a much more like older stern, kind
(09:22):
of down to earth pointer guy.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, I think brother Jonathan went away by the eighteen
six like there was some overlap there, went away in
the eighteen sixties, and then Thomas Nass And that's a
pretty big name in cartooning back then, right.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
For sure, he kind of gave us the conception of
Santa Claus, the pre Coca Cola Sam.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's right, that's right, I knew, I knew that name
from somewhere. But Nas is the one who sort of
came up with the more modern image. And then Flag
of course made the iconic one that we still use
that same exact sort of character.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Right, And so let's see what else, Chuck, Well.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I mean, one of the ways, you know, if you've
still never seen much Uncle Sam besides recruitment posters and
stuff like that, or the old propaganda posters that Flag
was tasked with drawing, is in political cartoons you'll still
see to this day, like a political cartoon that will
use Uncle Sam in a variety of ways, whether it's
a beleaguered Uncle Sam in a food line or a
(10:32):
or a war mongering Uncle Sam. Like, you know, anyway
they can. It's not just like kind of one use.
Whenever he's in a political cartoon, they can. He can
adapt and change to suit whatever message you're trying to deliver.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, whatever comment you're making on America, you just make
Uncle Sam do it.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
There's also a nineteen ninety six slasher film called Uncle Sam,
and I was about it, and it's that The horror
fan blog was like, it's not a must sy, but
you could see it right essentially is what they were doing.
Some movie exist, But Robert Forrester's in it. He plays
(11:10):
like a corrupt congressman who dies. Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Year?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Was it ninety six?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Okay, so that was pre Jackie Brown.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, you're around that time.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I would think it wouldn't be post Jackie Brown.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
No, did he blow up after Jackie Brown?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Not blue up, but was definitely relevant enough to probably
not be in the Uncle Sam slasher movie.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
He landed a role on Breaking Bad season five.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
At least, right, Oh was he in that?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, he was the guy. Sorry for spoilers everybody, if
you haven't seen Breaking Bad yet, but he was the
guy who brought Oh I can't remember the main character's name,
but Malcolm in the Middle's dad supplies when he was
Walter White, Yes, when he was hiding out in New Hampshire,
Vermont or whatever. He was the guy. He was just
(12:00):
basically waiting for him to die so he could take
his money.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Here's your things that I'm gonna deliver to your house,
and now if you could just give me your money.
That's my best impression of him.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That was great. I thought it was Robert Forster speaking
just now.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
And by the way, Jackie Brown was in ninety seven,
so kind of right around that time. Yeah, for my money,
the most underrated Tarantino film.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, maybe Tarantino saw him in Slasher and was like,
that's my guy.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
You never know.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
That was a good movie. I don't know if his
most underrated, Yeah, maybe maybe I could see that. Sure,
it was a good one.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
He's got a lot of overrated movies.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah, he's got a few under his belt for sure.
But he's also got some of the greatest of all time.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Agreed, He's all over the map.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, and I'm really sad to hear that he's planning
on making his last movie, although apparently he scuttled the
project that was his last movie because people had like
spies had infiltrated it, and he got pretty far into it,
was like, no, I'm making something else for my last movie.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Then, huh you know that goes Soderberg was supposed to
retire to then he did like forty more things.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Okay, all right, well that's good, that's hopeful. So obviously
we started talking about Quentin Tarantino and the Uncle Sam
Short Stuff, which means short Stuff is out.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You know. Stuff you should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, welcome to the short Stuff, Josh, Chuck, Jerry Dave.
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I could not, for the life of me find out
where we have talked about Uncle Sam before, and it
had to be one of our videos. But I couldn't
find it. I checked a million times over and it
was not a short stuff. I couldn't find it anywhere.
But I know for sure. The only reason I know
this is because we've talked about it.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
It had to be our Fourth of July special that
we did with the Onion and The Daily Show.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That keeps coming back to hanas. Huh. Yeah, because we
had another one the other day that was I think
in there. Yeah, I bet you it was.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, it had to be right.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, but who cares. Let's tell the real story Josh
and Chuck style.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, we're going to talk about Uncle Sam. If you
don't know who Uncle Sam is, then by god, you're
not much of an American.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, I mean, how would you describe Uncle Sam? A cartoon,
a drawing of a man become synonymous and a symbol
of the United States of America A logo almost.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, if you've ever seen somebody wearing a red, white
and blue stove top hat, or a top hat with
stars on it, that's an Uncle Sam hat.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You ever see somebody wearing an American flag suit, they're
basically doing their best Uncle Sam. You ever see anybody
with a beard, they're pretending their Uncle Sam.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah. If you've ever seen a picture of all those
things put together and a guy pointing at you on
a poster saying I want you to do whatever, join
the army or give money for war bonds, that's Uncle Sam.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah. So our conception of Uncle Sam, the one you
just described, is thanks to a great illustrator who was
working around the time America entered the First World War.
Same one of the great names of all time, James
Montgomery Flag with Jeez love that guy's name. But he
was an amazing illustrator and painter, and he painted that
(02:10):
iconic image of Uncle Sam looking out from the poster,
pointing at you the viewer, that I want you. I
remember the Simpsons where it was like the immigration episode,
Homer put up a poster. He asked that Pooh if
he could put up a poster in his convenience store,
and it was Uncle Sam saying I want you out.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Do you remember that on h No, that's funny though.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And Pooh took the took the occasion to talk about
how much he loved America, and Homer goes, wow, you
know what a poo I'm really gonna miss you.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Uh, that's that's great. You should say it as a
poo though.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Right, Nold.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Not the funny thing about this poster that came around
in nineteen seventeen, and we'll get this is not the
first incarnation of Uncle Sam, but it's the most amous
that we know now. But James Montgomery flag supposedly was
inspired by a British Minister of War, Lord Kitchener, but
he used his own handsome face as the actual model.
(03:12):
And if you look up a picture of James Montgomery flag,
you're in you know, he put wrinkles, he was younger
in a gray beard. But if you picture that guy
with that gray beard and hair, it's Uncle.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Sam, yeah for sure. And Neat Yeah, it was like
there was a Lord Kitchener poster was essentially the exact
same thing of drawing of Lord Kitchener looking out from
the poster pointing at you, saying he wants you to
sign up to help. And both of these posters were
propaganda posters. From World War One, that the one that
flag designed of Uncle Sam had been printed four million times,
(03:46):
four million copies of a poster that fair of Fawcet
poster hadn't even been printed four million times. That's how
that's how successful this poster was, right, And this was
all just before the war was over, So in about
years it was printed four million times. The thing is,
I'm sure there's people out there that like, well, yeah,
it's the origin of Uncle Sam, and friend, you'd be wrong.
(04:09):
Uncle Sam had been around for at least about one
hundred years by the time James Montgomery Flagg made his
iconic poster, and I say, we take a break, we
come back and we talk about that very issue. If
you want to know, then you're in luck. Just listen
to Suffus stuffus.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
No, all right, So the origins of Uncle Sam. There
was a story that many people believe for a long
time that it came about during the War of eighteen twelve,
and that it was named such. The characters name such
(05:01):
because of Uncle Sam Wilson, who was a meatpacker from
New York who supplied beef, these big barrels of beef
to the army for the War of eighteen twelve, they
had us stamped on them, and they called those barrels
of beef Uncle Sam's. That was published and republished many,
many times, starting in the New York Gazette in nineteen thirty,
(05:22):
leading to a congressional resolution in nineteen sixty one recognizing
Sam Wilson. But that is not the origins of Uncle Sam, right.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
No, I mean a lot of people think Sam Wilson
was the guy who started it all. I mean that
story everything comes together so close, like he really was
a real person, he really was working in the War
of eighteen twelve. The barrels of meat really were stamped us.
But some really dedicated historians won by the name of
(05:52):
Don Hickey from Wayne State College, another one named Christopher Philippo.
They both got to the bottom of this and found
that very very shortly before the Uncle Sam Wilson's story
could have happened, people were already using Uncle Sam as
a way of depicting or talking about the United States
(06:17):
of America.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
As a whole exactly. They found some actual proof proof
and from an eighteen ten diary from a sixteen year
old sailor on the USS Wasp where he read he
was seasick and not feeling so good, and he wrote,
I swear that Uncle Sam as they call him, would
certainly forever have lost the services of at least one sailor.
(06:39):
And that was in eighteen ten, So it was if
he was using it in a diary entry in eighteen ten,
that means it was what I would consider probably fairly
common usage at that point. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
That guy almost certainly didn't make that up in that
diary entry. Yeah, So Yeah. The thing is is, even
though Sam Wilson wasn't the actual direct inspiration for Uncle Sam,
he certainly helped kind of popularize it. I think he
probably his association with it in the story that came
(07:09):
from that probably took it from what may have just
been relegated to navy lingo that would have become archaic
to now it has a story and it's spread from there.
So even though he didn't inspire it, it's still like, yeah,
Uncle Sam Wilson definitely had a huge role in the
creation of the idea of Uncle Sam.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, there was a minister I believe
it Sam the real Sam Wilson's funeral that there was.
He wrote a letter that said that he had often
talked with Wilson quote about the circumstances which led to
the singular transfer of his popular name to the United States.
So it sounds like what that's saying is that Sam
(07:52):
Wilson even knew that, yes.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
For sure, and went along with it, right. He's like, yeah, yeah,
it was, and he'd look furtively around. So there was
another character that I hadn't heard of, a guy named
Brother Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Did you heard of him? I had not. I didn't think.
But then I also think that we may have brought
this up because those pictures looked very familiar.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, they did not to me. But there was a
character named Brother Jonathan who was who predated Uncle Sam
by a couple of decades. Brother Jonathan was the original
personification of America around the time of the Revolution. He
dressed like a revolutionary cat, with a tri cornered hat
and those tails and the coat with tails and everything.
(08:37):
But he was much more rambunctious, much younger. I saw
editorial cartoon of him forcibly pouring a bunch of French
brandy down the throat of John Bull, the character who
personified Great Britain and still does, And he was around
for decades, and eventually he kind of handed the baton
(09:01):
off to Uncle Sam, which is really interesting because it
happened as a time when America was starting to mature.
The character personifying America went from a younger, rambunctious, brandy
forcing character to a much more like older stern, kind
(09:22):
of down to earth pointer guy.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, I think brother Jonathan went away by the eighteen
six like there was some overlap there, went away in
the eighteen sixties, and then Thomas Nass And that's a
pretty big name in cartooning back then, right.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
For sure, he kind of gave us the conception of
Santa Claus, the pre Coca Cola Sam.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's right, that's right, I knew, I knew that name
from somewhere. But Nas is the one who sort of
came up with the more modern image. And then Flag
of course made the iconic one that we still use
that same exact sort of character.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Right, And so let's see what else, Chuck, Well.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I mean, one of the ways, you know, if you've
still never seen much Uncle Sam besides recruitment posters and
stuff like that, or the old propaganda posters that Flag
was tasked with drawing, is in political cartoons you'll still
see to this day, like a political cartoon that will
use Uncle Sam in a variety of ways, whether it's
a beleaguered Uncle Sam in a food line or a
(10:32):
or a war mongering Uncle Sam. Like, you know, anyway
they can. It's not just like kind of one use.
Whenever he's in a political cartoon, they can. He can
adapt and change to suit whatever message you're trying to deliver.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, whatever comment you're making on America, you just make
Uncle Sam do it.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
There's also a nineteen ninety six slasher film called Uncle Sam,
and I was about it, and it's that The horror
fan blog was like, it's not a must sy, but
you could see it right essentially is what they were doing.
Some movie exist, But Robert Forrester's in it. He plays
(11:10):
like a corrupt congressman who dies. Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Year?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Was it ninety six?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Okay, so that was pre Jackie Brown.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, you're around that time.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I would think it wouldn't be post Jackie Brown.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
No, did he blow up after Jackie Brown?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Not blue up, but was definitely relevant enough to probably
not be in the Uncle Sam slasher movie.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
He landed a role on Breaking Bad season five.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
At least, right, Oh was he in that?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, he was the guy. Sorry for spoilers everybody, if
you haven't seen Breaking Bad yet, but he was the
guy who brought Oh I can't remember the main character's name,
but Malcolm in the Middle's dad supplies when he was
Walter White, Yes, when he was hiding out in New Hampshire,
Vermont or whatever. He was the guy. He was just
(12:00):
basically waiting for him to die so he could take
his money.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Here's your things that I'm gonna deliver to your house,
and now if you could just give me your money.
That's my best impression of him.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That was great. I thought it was Robert Forster speaking
just now.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
And by the way, Jackie Brown was in ninety seven,
so kind of right around that time. Yeah, for my money,
the most underrated Tarantino film.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, maybe Tarantino saw him in Slasher and was like,
that's my guy.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
You never know.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
That was a good movie. I don't know if his
most underrated, Yeah, maybe maybe I could see that. Sure,
it was a good one.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
He's got a lot of overrated movies.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah, he's got a few under his belt for sure.
But he's also got some of the greatest of all time.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Agreed, He's all over the map.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, and I'm really sad to hear that he's planning
on making his last movie, although apparently he scuttled the
project that was his last movie because people had like
spies had infiltrated it, and he got pretty far into it,
was like, no, I'm making something else for my last movie.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Then, huh you know that goes Soderberg was supposed to
retire to then he did like forty more things.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Okay, all right, well that's good, that's hopeful. So obviously
we started talking about Quentin Tarantino and the Uncle Sam
Short Stuff, which means short Stuff is out.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You know. Stuff you should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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