November 25, 2017 • 36 mins
On this episode of Sworn, we talk to the two detectives who first looked into Tiffany Whitton’s disappearance. Mixed by ResonateRecordings.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
You place your left hand on the Bible and raise
your right hand and repeat after me. I you solemnly
swear the jury trying it defended, not scared the process,
and this weekend in Ferguson and around the country, resistant
makes no sense. If it doesn't fit, you must equip judge.
You are the last line of reason in this case.
(00:31):
Every one of us took an all sub office and
we're scorn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. On this
Closing Statements episode, We've reached out to Johnny Mueller and
Mike Freer, two of the original detectives assigned to Tiffany
(00:51):
Witten's case in the very beginning. We've already talked to
John Dawes, the current lead investigator at the Cobb County
Cold Case Unit, but we felt it was in portant
to talk to the two people who know the most
about Tiffany's case besides John Dawes and Lisa Daniels. And
that's Detective Mohler and Detective Freer from the Marriotta Police Department.
I'm Johnny Moehler. I am a police officer here with
(01:14):
Marietta Police. I've been employed here for almost seventeen years now.
I am currently assigned to our training Academy UM I
train new recruits and already certified officers. Prior to that,
I spent ten years in our detective division working homicide
in crimes against persons. Okay, so about how long after
(01:36):
her disappearance did you get involved? Actually, our department did
not get involved until January, when Tiffany's mom, Lisa, came
to the department to make a missing person's report. So
we were already way behind the curve when the report
was made, because Tiffany went missing in September and it
(01:57):
was almost four months later in Jane wary Um when
she was reported missing by her mom to us, and
then that's when we became aware of the case and
got involved. It's just one of those cases that stays
with you at that point. When when I started working
the case, I had been in detectives for nine years,
you know, working homicides and those type cases, and this
(02:21):
was the first case in my time back there as
far as serious cases where that I wasn't actually able
to bring to a resolution. It's not officially a homicide
case at this point, but you know, all facts are
are pointing to that at this point. It's really the
only homicide case that I haven't resolved in my ten
(02:43):
years and detectives, and so it just it does bother me.
It hangs over my head, you know, not being able
to bring closure, bring answers for Lesa and her family.
And as I worked the case, you know, over the
year time that I worked the case, you know, I
got to know Lisa, I to know her family, and
it was just heartbreaking to see the the effects that
(03:04):
it had on her entire family. There are definitely people
out there who know what happened, and that's the frustrating
part for me as an investigator, you know, because it's
like beating your head against the wall. You know that
that people know, but they're just not willing to to
talk talk to the police or to come forward and
(03:24):
tell what they know. And that's that's the most frustrating.
When you first started on the case, what was the
first thing that you did. The first thing that I
did was I I called Lisa, so I wanted to
talk to her and and get um as much information
as I could about Tiffany and kind of what we
referred to as victimology, you know, find out who Tiffany was,
(03:47):
what she was about, you know, what her habits were,
and all of that stuff, and and to try and
get a field for you know what, what may have happened.
And no one better knows, you know, they're child than
a mother. So, UM, I knew when I talked to
Lisa after I got handed the case, I immediately went
(04:07):
to my desk and I called Lisa and I said, hey,
you know, tell me what you can about Tiffany. And
we probably spoke for maybe an hour and a half,
and you know, she told me a lot of things
about Tiffany, about her past, you know, good and bad,
and she told me things that just um, you know,
(04:27):
as a mother she would know, you know, and it
just the things that she was telling me just didn't
add up. It didn't make sense. And I just felt
like in my heart that you know, something was was
seriously wrong. At some point Tiffany would have reached out
in in that four month time frame, if not to Lisa,
to another member of the family, UM, and she hadn't
(04:48):
done so, so I knew that we had a um
a long road ahead. UM to figure out exactly what
had happened. You have to look at all the factors. Um.
Did her lifestyle put her in a UM more vulnerable
position to be victimized? Yeah? I believe so, UM, you know,
(05:08):
but ultimately what happened to her is the responsibility of
the person who who did that? You know who UM
is responsible for her disappearance and her missing UM. So yeah,
absolutely I think her lifestyle contributed to that. UM, But
certainly I'm in no way blaming her because she's not
(05:30):
responsible for What did you learn about the people that
Tiffany ran with? M hmm? Some interesting characters, for sure?
Have you talked to many of them? I've talked to
more than I could probably even count, just tirelessly talked
(05:50):
to people. I've gone to the jail day after day
after day to talk to people who've been arrested who
ran in the same circles as to any just in
hopes of somebody having a piece of a bit of
information that Mike could help. You know, We've even tried
working with people who have criminal charges and hopes that
(06:13):
you know, UM, they might be willing to come forward
and exchange information. It's just been exhausting, the number of
people that I've encountered in this case, you know, in
some a lot of the same people I've interviewed time
and time again, UM in the midst of the years
that I worked on it. You know, we're fortunate enough
(06:34):
to have that video um as a result of the
shoplifting incident. UM. So that's kind of a blessing for
us in that sense. UM. But I definitely believe that
whatever happened to her happened a short time after UM
the Walmart incident. It's the most frustrating part, and it's
by far the most frustrating case that I've ever worked
(06:58):
in my career. Um M. It's one of those cases
where you do everything that you know to do, and
then you do some more. You know, you try different
things or try new things that you've never even thought
of in the past on other cases. But it's once
you exhaust all of your all your other avenues, you're
(07:20):
you're left with nothing, and but you still want to
try and move forward and create some sort of you know,
activity on the case or chatter and Tiffany's circle of
acquaintances or friends or whatever you want to call them.
It's it's frustrating very frustrating. What was the last thing
you got to do on the case? The last thing
(07:42):
we searched? UM. We searched some areas for her UM.
We had gotten a couple of tips and search in
abandoned farm type area UM. And we also did a
search UM at a resident Grisham Road. Is that one
(08:03):
of the places that that is one of the places
that we did search? Yes, and we have we have
taken cadaver dogs two different parts of the county UM
doing searches and digging and looking and tracking. UM. These
(08:23):
from tips that have come in or they're from tips,
they're from UM leads that we have developed, you know,
through work in the case and interviewing people and and
those kind of things. That nothing's turned up of any
of it. Now, how do you feel about leaving the
case where you're proud of any of the headway that
(08:46):
you've made on the case. UM. Do you feel like
you left it in good hands? I do. I think
initially the case was probably looked at as you know
a lot of did detectives look at missing persons cases UM,
and they look at you know, a person's history and
(09:08):
background and you know, what's there their normal behavior, and
and all those kind of things. UM. And when you
look at Tiffany's case on the on the surface, you know,
it appears to be just one of those normal kind
of cases of well, she might be on a drug
binge or she's just you know, mad at her family
and out of contact. But then as you start really
(09:31):
looking into it a little bit deeper, you start to
see some of the issues that you know, cost concern
that are out of the ordinary. And you know, I
think that initially the case probably got looked at as
just one of those cases that you know, oh, she'll
turn up. And as time went on, and as I
(09:54):
started working the case and started interviewing people, I started
to realize that, you know, things we're not adding up, um,
and that something was terribly wrong. But I feel like that,
you know, I was able to take the case basically
from nothing, and you know, work it for an entire year. Um,
(10:14):
work it exhaustively for an entire year, and I felt
like that I got it to a point where, you know,
without another significant break in the case, it wasn't it
was kind of at a stopping point. And so I
was kind of in a limbo state at that time
(10:35):
to where you know, I was kind of just waiting
for another piece of information because I had exhausted so
many of the leads and things that tips that we
had gotten prior to that. So, UM, I mean, I'm
proud of the work that I did. It was it
was exhaustive, but you know, I felt like that I
(10:55):
got at least got some answers for Lisa. Mm hmm um, Okay,
I get up sevenhen I think about Lisa because I
know what she's calling through. So Lisa is a is
(11:18):
a remarkable woman, um, And I'm I feel very fortunate to,
you know, considering the unfortunate circumstances, I feel very fortunate
to have gotten to know her over the year that
I worked the case and got to know her family.
And you know, she's a very very strong woman, and
(11:40):
she's raising Tiffany's daughter, um as well as you know,
Tiffany's older sister, and I just, you know, I don't
see how she does it from day to day, you know. Um.
I remember one evening, this is while I was still
in detectives, I got a call from Lisa, and Lisa
said a Tiffany's daughter who she had custody of, had
(12:05):
asked her that day. You know, what happened to my mommy?
Is my mommy dead? You know, and that's just heartbreaking.
You know, it's heartbreaking to know that Tiffany has a mother,
a daughter, a sister, um family out there who loves
her and cares about her, you know, despite her lifestyle
or the circumstances surrounding her disappearance. Do you believe that
(12:27):
Tiffany is still out there? I would like to believe
for Lisa's sake, you know that she is in my heart,
you know, I feel like that she's not on this
earth anymore. But I understand also for Lisa that, you know,
there is always that glimmer of hope until she has
(12:49):
the closure of you know, knowing for certain. And I
think that's the most devastating part for her family, is
the not knowing. Lisa and I have talked about this,
but we've talked about you know, there have been some
positives that have come from it. You know, after I
left detectives, after spending ten years work in those kind
(13:11):
of cases and those kind of crimes, I just felt
like it was time I needed a break, and a
position in our training academy became available, and so I
took that position, and Lisa and I had talked prior
to me leaving detectives about, you know, how great it
would be to be able to train um, other officers
(13:34):
and other investigators and how to look at these cases
and to look at them a little bit differently and
not just as a number, not just as a statistic,
but as you know, as a as a person, as
this being somebody's family member. I ended up developing a
missing person's investigation class um that I teach to other
(13:58):
investigators now, you know, And it's kind of the good
and the bad and the ugly of these kind of
investigations and lessons learned that I learned from work in
this case, you know that I try to share with
other investigators now, so you know, there are a few
positives that have come, you know, from from such a
(14:20):
sad case. When you work these these types of cases,
and and you've done this job for a long time,
you do have a tendency to become jaded and the
things that you see and experience, you know, My hope
is that even through all of that, whenever one of
these cases comes across, you know, a detective's desk, that
(14:43):
they take a second to think about it and and
and realize that, hey, this is this is someone's loved one,
this is someone's daughter, son, mother, father, um. And they
keep that in the back of their minds whenever, you know,
they move forward throughout the case because there are people
that that care about them despite the circumstances, and and
(15:05):
that do want answers and that deserve answers. Do you
think enough is being done on the case right now?
I do believe so. I mean, unfortunately, you know, we're
four plus years into it now and the leads are
just not there like they used to be. The tips,
you know, are not there. So certainly I do believe
(15:28):
that if if tips are coming in, that they are
being followed up on and they are being worked as
they should be. I think the problem is is there's
just not really enough information coming in. Honestly, the case
was a cold case when we got it um, because
we were already four months behind the behind the curve,
and so it's just continued as we you know, have
(15:49):
moved forward to get colder and colder. And really all
it's gonna take, though, is is someone coming forward with
the right piece of information and to tie everything together.
You know, typically when women go missing or have been murdered,
it's usually someone that's close to her or an acquaintance.
(16:10):
It's not generally a stranger on stranger type crime, so
it's usually someone that knows her that is, you know, um, boyfriend, husband, spouse,
something of that nature. So those are typically the people
that we always look at first. Anyway, just statistically speaking,
but any time that we've explored other options, we still
(16:32):
keep coming back to the same path. Do you still
talk to John Dawes about the case? I do talk
to John, and we always talk about the case. Anytime
I I see him, I ask him, you know, any
any new leads, any updates, anything going on, um, you know,
in hopes that one day he may have a bit
(16:53):
of news for me, you know, or I'll get a
phone call one day and to say, hey, you know,
we got something here. You know, that's the hope. Anyway, Hello,
Hi Mike, how are you good? How are you good?
It's great to talk to you, you too, wonderful. Could
we start really quickly with an introduction. You just tell
(17:14):
us your name and your title. Michael frere former marry
at a police detective. Awesome, and you were the first
detective on Tiffany's witness case or the second the second
detective Muller was the first, Okay, And when did you
get involved? Um? Once Detectivemullar got transferred to a different unit,
I was assigned the case, so I got involved immediately
after she left the unit. And so I know that
(17:38):
this happened in two thousand thirteen. So what year do
you get involved. I believe I got involved at the
end of two thousand fourteen into two thousand fifteen. And
how long were you on the case. I was on
the case for over a year, and then I was
transferred to the training unit, and so that's why your
involvement in the case stopped. Yeah, did stop when I
(18:01):
got transferred and it was assigned to somebody else. So
what was the very first thing you did on this
case after Mueller passed it over to you. The first
thing I did is I reviewed the whole case file
again until I actually sat down with Johnny Mueller and
talked to her about it and where we were going.
And the first thing I did after that after reviewing
(18:22):
the case is myself another detective went down to Columbus,
Georgia to prison down there and interviewed Ashley Caudle again.
Because Johnny had already interviewed him, I decided to see
maybe he'll be a little more talkative with a different detective.
So myself and another detective went down to Columbus and
(18:43):
interviewed him. It's not about a forty five minute interview.
Nothing new came out of him. He basically followed the
pattern he told Detective Mueller, you know of what happened
the night that Tiffany disappeared. But I wanted to just
look him in the face because I had never dealt
with him before. So that's the main reason I went
down there, is just to see who I was dealing with.
(19:05):
What was it like looking him in the face. He
was what I expected what Johnny had told me, arrogant
and uh full of himself. And once I got down there,
and as soon as he started talking, and I I said,
we're not gonna gaily knew out of him. He's just
gonna tell the same same stuff he's told everybody else.
But I had to do it, you know, it had
to be done so right. And did he seem receptive
(19:27):
to talking? Was he he did? He like he talked
a lot, not anything that He talked about things that
really didn't involve her disappearance. You know, he'd go off subject.
I had to bring him back the subject. But he
talked a lot. He talked about his family life and
how he's he's unable to have an access to anything.
(19:48):
And he was basically whining about how he was treated
in prison. And like I just said, don't listen to
his prison and it's not to do with me. I don't.
I'm not in charge of being in here, you know,
here incarcerated for something else. I'm just here to get information.
And then he would get back on subject for a
little while, and I asked him about, you know, go
over them one to night when it just when she
disappeared and all that, and he would just tell me
(20:09):
the same thing that he told Detective Moller. You know,
he didn't know what happened to her, you know, blah
blah blah. Then he go off subject again and all Honestly,
it was a waste of my time to go down there,
but I, you know, I figured might as well do it,
you know, that's the right thing to do anyway, right,
to look him in the face and see did he
ever seemed like he had any feelings of sadness or
(20:33):
remorse or like missed Tiffany. He mentioned that he missed her,
and you know, oh yeah, his thing was if I
could help find her, I would, you know, he came
across is aloof to the whole thing, you know, like whatever,
you know, he would tell me, you know, I loved
I hope they find her, hope she's all right. But
in my opinion, he didn't seem like he really gave
(20:53):
her care in the world about whatever happened to her,
just you know, based on looking at him in the
eye and talk to him. Did he ever talk about
Tiffany anything personal about her, like her personal life, or
talk about her characteristics or was it just surface stuff
and stuff he did. He talked a little bit about
her mom and however mom thinks that he was involved.
(21:17):
Obviously he doesn't care for for a lease at all.
I looked at him, and I didn't say what I
wanted to say, but yeah, but I kept it professional.
But you know, he basically started talking about how Lesa's
thinks he was involved and he's not. She's out to
get him. But so I had to bring him back
from that again and get him back on you know,
(21:37):
all we ever talked about Tiffany was surf official stuff
and how you know I wouldn't involved. I wish I
could help you find her and all that type of stuff.
He never dealt into anything. It was really a very
frustrating interview. As the other detectives said in their way
home the Atlanta, he said, that was a waste of time.
And do you think that it's possible he would ever
veer from his story on his own initiative of his
(21:59):
own Um, you know, the only way he would change
his story is if it benefited him. He's out for himself.
Just Johnny realized that when she interviewed him. I'm sure.
And then I realized that he's only he's out for himself.
If he can get any do anything to make himself
look better and get out of his predicament of being
in jail for drugs, he would do it. But otherwise, No,
(22:23):
how long is he in there for, Dad, I don't know.
I know it was a drug charge. I think it
was a trafficking charge, but I'm not sure how long
he's in there. He got transferred from that prison to
another one, which I don't know which one he went into.
So that was the very first thing you did on
the case. So what was the very last thing you
did on the case. There was a lot of things,
I mean I did. Uh. We interviewed a guy at
the jail who said he had information at the cop
(22:44):
County jail. We followed up on what he told us
and that turned out to be nothing. He was another
person involved in the drug world. I can't give you
his name, but he because he's still involved in other things.
But he gave us some information with we followed up
on and it was a dead end. Gave us some names.
I only found one of the person that he gave us.
(23:06):
An interview that person about what he knew, and he
basically said, well, this is what I heard. This is
what I heard. So he's its secondhand knowledge. I've never
been able to get firsthand knowledge. Is somebody actually knows
saw her that night and knows what happened to her.
So I would get oh, I heard you know the
old I heard. Well, I heard that she disappeared. I
(23:27):
heard that she was in a truck. I heard, But
you know, it's nothing concrete. So do you believe that
someone out there has that firsthand knowledge? Yes, I firmly
believe that somebody knows. And the only way I think
that that's ever going to come out at this person
that knows, or these people maybe there's more than one
his face with a situation where I better give you
(23:48):
this information because it's going to help me. I really
think that some of these people have come forward with
the information are just looking for an angle and they're
just repeating with other people said. I definitely think there's
people out there that, you know, what happened to her,
know where she is, and I wish somebody would come
forward and do that and contacted Cop Count of d
(24:08):
A's office and and tell them listen, this is my situation.
But I know exactly what happened that night because somebody knows.
Besides Ashley, somebody knows. I think so too, And it's
so frustrating, just I mean because at least it's such
a great lady. It's just I just and her family
is very nice. I just want something good to come
(24:30):
out of it, you know, just some closure for them,
because obviously nothing they know. There's very little if no
chance that she's still with us. So but we'd like
to be able to give that family something to remember where, hey,
we can we have a place we can put her
for her final arresting place and said wherever she is,
you know, right. So that's the most frustrating part about
(24:52):
the case because I did a lot of interviews, I
made phone calls, granted, and the whole thing with that,
I was still working. I was a homicide detecting, married too,
my sides at the same time I was trying to
work Tiffany, so you know, I tried to work it
when I could. It was frustrating, and I know Lisa
was frustrated, and everybody's frustrated. Really, why were you assigned
Tiffany's case? Because I was crimes against persons and they
(25:16):
knew that. I. Uh, Johnny and I are pretty close,
and in fact, I was her training officer when she
got hired, so they thought I'd be the best person
for the job. Because you know, I'm not bragging anything,
but once I get ahold of something, I'd like to
work it till I can work it no longer. You know,
how did you feel when you were leading the case?
You know that The thing is, I didn't feel real
good because I didn't think I made any progress at all.
(25:38):
You know, I thought I worked it, but I don't.
I didn't think I made it any closer to finding really,
just because of saying I was getting the same story
from all the different people and the same leads were
dead ends. And I worked really hard, but I don't
think I really made a dent and it, to be
honest with you, because nobody was telling me the truth,
you know, so they took it away from me. Granted
(26:01):
I was getting transferred. I just felt like I didn't
really get Lesa any I didn't do anything different than
than Johnny had because we still hadn't gotten to the
I was hoping when I got the case, you know,
we could find a conclusion for her, but we never did.
So it was very frustrating, and it's still frustrating today
because I still, you know, I think about it, and
(26:21):
then of course you hear about it. Even though I'm
retired now, I still, you know, I still have Plus
I see my friends with Lesa on Facebook, so I
can see the frustration in her too. So I didn't
feel like I made a difference in the whole thing.
To be honest with you, is there something in particular
that you wish you could have accomplished. Well, the main
thing besides finding her obviously, is find that certain person
(26:45):
that knows what happened. Like I said earlier, there's somebody
out there that knows what happened. And the thing is
with the whole drug world. And I worked in narcotics
for years before I became a detective. They're all liars.
They're only out for themselves. You know. That's the real
frustrating because the drug world, you know, what can you
(27:05):
do for me? It's all about quesion with methamphetamine or
heroine or anyone, And it's just they're worried about their
next high and more than they're worried about helping people,
you know. So that's part was very aggravating. I just
wish I could have found that person that knows what happened,
because there is somebody. I'm sure I know there is,
But somebody, somebody's gonna get arrested, they're gonna find they're
(27:29):
gonna say, listen, I'm facing this. This is what I got,
and this is and that leads gonna lead us to her.
I really believe that was there actually a particular person
that you couldn't find or you couldn't ever make contact
with No, not really every name that I got from
that informant at the jail. He gave me several names.
(27:50):
Every name that either I couldn't find that person. Well,
I did find a lot of more incarcerated, so I
interviewed him at the jail, interview one guy actually even
using court. He was actually going to a state court
on a probation violation. I found him in court and
I interviewed him. That was another waste of time. I've
had people come into the police department and tell me
(28:11):
they have information on Tiffany, and I would take him
in the interview room, set up the whole interview room
and it would be the same. Well, I heard that
this happened, and I heard that this happened, no direct evidence, none.
I interviewed probably eight to ten, either drug dealers or
(28:31):
drug users. And I really thought that informed from the
jail was going to be a great lead, but it
turned out it really wasn't. But the drug world, I
worked at d e A for a little while as
a test force guy, so I know how these people think,
so right, So I know Tiffany was involved in the
drug world obviously, and with her boyfriend Ashley and everything
(28:51):
like that. Besides all that, who do you think Tiffany was?
Did you feel like you started to know her? There's
articles about her, there's not a lot of specifics on
who she kind of actually was. Well, just talking to
Lisa and just I'm looking at Tiffany the Facebook page
for Tiffany, you know, just before she got hooked on
and you could tell that she was a great mom.
(29:12):
You look at her pictures before she got involved in drugs.
What a beautiful young girl. And she got involved in
drugs and it just ran her life. And you know,
her daughter was not involved because the drugs were more involved.
And but if you look at her early before she
got involved, I mean, I did a little background on
her and just I mean I went back to look
at her high school pictures and stuff, and you know,
(29:33):
looking at what she was involving and when she was
younger before she got hooked on drugs and what I mean,
what a different person. Obviously a great mom until she
got hooked in the dope world. So the whole things
as a shame. What was your relationship with Lisa, Like
she spoke highly of you, you and Johnny both. She's
(29:53):
such a great lady. I mean I really would. Like
I said, I wish I could have done more, But
in my relationship with her was very good. I I
try to keep her updated. She would call me and
I wouldn't just you know, ignore her phone calls. If
I could get back to her right away, I would.
If not, I would get back to as soon as
I could. I try to keep her updated. I mean
I felt for I just like I said, I wouldn't
(30:14):
looked at Tiffany's life before the drugs took over, and
I just feel for his mother. You know, are you
apparent yourself? I am. I have a daughter. My daughter
is young, but still I could see what the world
of drugs does, not only females, but males too, obviously,
but I think females in a different way, just because
they can do other things to get drugs, which is,
(30:37):
you know what you like, prostitution and stuff like. I
don't know if Tiffany was ever involved in that, but
I've seen it so working in the narcotics, right, yeah,
you see especially what influence of drugs can do. You
don't do anything to get that high. So yeah, Lisa
is great. It was great to work with her and
(30:58):
talk to her and she seems very involved. I've worked
a lot of cases, but she was very involved. I
think it helped her to be involved. And I think
especially john Johnny is really close at least I'm not
as closest as Thick the Muller is, but just I
think that personal relationship you get had with especially Johnny,
but with me too, helped her because she knows she
(31:19):
can call either of us. Back then and even now,
if she called me, I would tell her if I
heard anything. But you know, I'm out of the game, really,
so I want to find I want Leasta to find
out what happened, and I want to find out what happened.
I want to know what the heck happened at night
because it's like she vanished in the thin air, which
we know is doesn't happen. So somebody knows something. And
(31:40):
I don't think Ashley is gonna help us. He's an arrogant,
you know, he thinks he's I don't know if narcissist
is the right word, but he's who knows what, he's
sociopath or something. But he he's cold and if it
doesn't help him, he's not gonna say nothing. Do you
think enough is being done to find at what happened
to Tiffany. I think the fact that the d A's
(32:03):
Office cold case unit has they have a lot more
time on their hands. They have more time to just
focus on it. Granted they get other cases and there's
cold case homicides, but I think that the d A's
Office having the case and being maybe I don't off
the butt there the primary on it, but just the
fact that they have the case over there, and they've
got seasons retired detectives over there that will help. They'll
(32:26):
look at it. And John Dawes was the cold case
director over there. He was a great homicide detective at
cop Police Department. So if anybody can come up with leads,
he can. He's just he's really don't tell John I
said this, but he's really good detective. Do you still
talk to John about the case? I do. In fact,
I'm I'm technically still assigned to that unit since I retired.
I can still go over there just having a timestin.
(32:48):
I'm probably going to go. Yeah, I'm probably gonna go
back over there after the after Christmas and work a
couple of days, three or four hours a day, and
I'm thinking about if I get over there, I can
just everybody can work on some stuff. I'll just grab
Tiffany's files and I'll read them, reread them again, all
the supplementals, and maybe I can find a name that
(33:09):
nobody found. You know, I can focus on just one thing,
which will Back when I had her case, I was
focused on twenty other cases too, you know. So that's
my plan, hopefully after the first of the year, is
to go over there. And I'm still assigned there technically,
I mean i still have my passed to get in
the building and I'm still assigned to the cold case unit.
So after the first year, I'm going to go over there.
(33:31):
There's a couple of homicides I'm interested in working that
our ours from Maryetta plus Jeffany's case, so maybe I
can come up with something. I'll let Thesa know that
i'm gonna want to go over there. I'll just I'm
gonna go over here. I'm gonna take a look and
I look at her case, so I know she'll be
happy about that. Yeah, So that's my plan. I wish
we could find out what happened now solving it. Who knows,
(33:53):
we might not solve it but we need a location
where she is so we can give the family closure
now after these many years. Is whether we can find
evidence wherever we find Tiffany, I don't know. But if
we can just find something to let Lisa no listen,
here's something you can use and you can have some closure,
that'd be important to me. Whether we can charge anybody
or not, that'd be great. But if we can get
(34:15):
lesa some closure, that'd be the most important thing in
my opinion. If we can charge somebody, that'd be fine too.
Thanks for listening, guys. Swarn is going on hiatus for
a few months for the holidays and while our team
prepares for you a v live Atlanta Monster and Up
and Vanished season two. Stay tuned on our feed for
more details you. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
(34:51):
Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason Lindsay and Meredith
Steadman and myself Philip Holloway executive producers Donald Albright and
Haye Lindsay. And if you have it yet, please check
out our sister podcast, Up and Vanished that follows the
investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High school teacher and
beauty Queen Tara Grinstead Up and Vantaged is available now
(35:12):
on Apple Podcasts. Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings.
If you're in the market for podcast production, go to
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for free. If you haven't already, please head over to
iTunes now to subscribe, rate, and review Sworn, and make
sure you check us out online at sworn podcast dot
(35:34):
com and follow us on social media at Sworn podcast
on Twitter and Instagram, and you can follow me your host,
Philip Holloway at phil holloway e s Q on Twitter.
Thanks for listening. This is Philip Halloway and I'll see
you next time on Sworn Steep Washing. I see blood
(36:07):
in the water, Jammy, Jammy, Blood in the water.
You place your left hand on the Bible and raise
your right hand and repeat after me. I you solemnly
swear the jury trying it defended, not scared the process,
and this weekend in Ferguson and around the country, resistant
makes no sense. If it doesn't fit, you must equip judge.
You are the last line of reason in this case.
(00:31):
Every one of us took an all sub office and
we're scorn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. On this
Closing Statements episode, We've reached out to Johnny Mueller and
Mike Freer, two of the original detectives assigned to Tiffany
(00:51):
Witten's case in the very beginning. We've already talked to
John Dawes, the current lead investigator at the Cobb County
Cold Case Unit, but we felt it was in portant
to talk to the two people who know the most
about Tiffany's case besides John Dawes and Lisa Daniels. And
that's Detective Mohler and Detective Freer from the Marriotta Police Department.
I'm Johnny Moehler. I am a police officer here with
(01:14):
Marietta Police. I've been employed here for almost seventeen years now.
I am currently assigned to our training Academy UM I
train new recruits and already certified officers. Prior to that,
I spent ten years in our detective division working homicide
in crimes against persons. Okay, so about how long after
(01:36):
her disappearance did you get involved? Actually, our department did
not get involved until January, when Tiffany's mom, Lisa, came
to the department to make a missing person's report. So
we were already way behind the curve when the report
was made, because Tiffany went missing in September and it
(01:57):
was almost four months later in Jane wary Um when
she was reported missing by her mom to us, and
then that's when we became aware of the case and
got involved. It's just one of those cases that stays
with you at that point. When when I started working
the case, I had been in detectives for nine years,
you know, working homicides and those type cases, and this
(02:21):
was the first case in my time back there as
far as serious cases where that I wasn't actually able
to bring to a resolution. It's not officially a homicide
case at this point, but you know, all facts are
are pointing to that at this point. It's really the
only homicide case that I haven't resolved in my ten
(02:43):
years and detectives, and so it just it does bother me.
It hangs over my head, you know, not being able
to bring closure, bring answers for Lesa and her family.
And as I worked the case, you know, over the
year time that I worked the case, you know, I
got to know Lisa, I to know her family, and
it was just heartbreaking to see the the effects that
(03:04):
it had on her entire family. There are definitely people
out there who know what happened, and that's the frustrating
part for me as an investigator, you know, because it's
like beating your head against the wall. You know that
that people know, but they're just not willing to to
talk talk to the police or to come forward and
(03:24):
tell what they know. And that's that's the most frustrating.
When you first started on the case, what was the
first thing that you did. The first thing that I
did was I I called Lisa, so I wanted to
talk to her and and get um as much information
as I could about Tiffany and kind of what we
referred to as victimology, you know, find out who Tiffany was,
(03:47):
what she was about, you know, what her habits were,
and all of that stuff, and and to try and
get a field for you know what, what may have happened.
And no one better knows, you know, they're child than
a mother. So, UM, I knew when I talked to
Lisa after I got handed the case, I immediately went
(04:07):
to my desk and I called Lisa and I said, hey,
you know, tell me what you can about Tiffany. And
we probably spoke for maybe an hour and a half,
and you know, she told me a lot of things
about Tiffany, about her past, you know, good and bad,
and she told me things that just um, you know,
(04:27):
as a mother she would know, you know, and it
just the things that she was telling me just didn't
add up. It didn't make sense. And I just felt
like in my heart that you know, something was was
seriously wrong. At some point Tiffany would have reached out
in in that four month time frame, if not to Lisa,
to another member of the family, UM, and she hadn't
(04:48):
done so, so I knew that we had a um
a long road ahead. UM to figure out exactly what
had happened. You have to look at all the factors. Um.
Did her lifestyle put her in a UM more vulnerable
position to be victimized? Yeah? I believe so, UM, you know,
(05:08):
but ultimately what happened to her is the responsibility of
the person who who did that? You know who UM
is responsible for her disappearance and her missing UM. So yeah,
absolutely I think her lifestyle contributed to that. UM, But
certainly I'm in no way blaming her because she's not
(05:30):
responsible for What did you learn about the people that
Tiffany ran with? M hmm? Some interesting characters, for sure?
Have you talked to many of them? I've talked to
more than I could probably even count, just tirelessly talked
(05:50):
to people. I've gone to the jail day after day
after day to talk to people who've been arrested who
ran in the same circles as to any just in
hopes of somebody having a piece of a bit of
information that Mike could help. You know, We've even tried
working with people who have criminal charges and hopes that
(06:13):
you know, UM, they might be willing to come forward
and exchange information. It's just been exhausting, the number of
people that I've encountered in this case, you know, in
some a lot of the same people I've interviewed time
and time again, UM in the midst of the years
that I worked on it. You know, we're fortunate enough
(06:34):
to have that video um as a result of the
shoplifting incident. UM. So that's kind of a blessing for
us in that sense. UM. But I definitely believe that
whatever happened to her happened a short time after UM
the Walmart incident. It's the most frustrating part, and it's
by far the most frustrating case that I've ever worked
(06:58):
in my career. Um M. It's one of those cases
where you do everything that you know to do, and
then you do some more. You know, you try different
things or try new things that you've never even thought
of in the past on other cases. But it's once
you exhaust all of your all your other avenues, you're
(07:20):
you're left with nothing, and but you still want to
try and move forward and create some sort of you know,
activity on the case or chatter and Tiffany's circle of
acquaintances or friends or whatever you want to call them.
It's it's frustrating very frustrating. What was the last thing
you got to do on the case? The last thing
(07:42):
we searched? UM. We searched some areas for her UM.
We had gotten a couple of tips and search in
abandoned farm type area UM. And we also did a
search UM at a resident Grisham Road. Is that one
(08:03):
of the places that that is one of the places
that we did search? Yes, and we have we have
taken cadaver dogs two different parts of the county UM
doing searches and digging and looking and tracking. UM. These
(08:23):
from tips that have come in or they're from tips,
they're from UM leads that we have developed, you know,
through work in the case and interviewing people and and
those kind of things. That nothing's turned up of any
of it. Now, how do you feel about leaving the
case where you're proud of any of the headway that
(08:46):
you've made on the case. UM. Do you feel like
you left it in good hands? I do. I think
initially the case was probably looked at as you know
a lot of did detectives look at missing persons cases UM,
and they look at you know, a person's history and
(09:08):
background and you know, what's there their normal behavior, and
and all those kind of things. UM. And when you
look at Tiffany's case on the on the surface, you know,
it appears to be just one of those normal kind
of cases of well, she might be on a drug
binge or she's just you know, mad at her family
and out of contact. But then as you start really
(09:31):
looking into it a little bit deeper, you start to
see some of the issues that you know, cost concern
that are out of the ordinary. And you know, I
think that initially the case probably got looked at as
just one of those cases that you know, oh, she'll
turn up. And as time went on, and as I
(09:54):
started working the case and started interviewing people, I started
to realize that, you know, things we're not adding up, um,
and that something was terribly wrong. But I feel like that,
you know, I was able to take the case basically
from nothing, and you know, work it for an entire year. Um,
(10:14):
work it exhaustively for an entire year, and I felt
like that I got it to a point where, you know,
without another significant break in the case, it wasn't it
was kind of at a stopping point. And so I
was kind of in a limbo state at that time
(10:35):
to where you know, I was kind of just waiting
for another piece of information because I had exhausted so
many of the leads and things that tips that we
had gotten prior to that. So, UM, I mean, I'm
proud of the work that I did. It was it
was exhaustive, but you know, I felt like that I
(10:55):
got at least got some answers for Lisa. Mm hmm um, Okay,
I get up sevenhen I think about Lisa because I
know what she's calling through. So Lisa is a is
(11:18):
a remarkable woman, um, And I'm I feel very fortunate to,
you know, considering the unfortunate circumstances, I feel very fortunate
to have gotten to know her over the year that
I worked the case and got to know her family.
And you know, she's a very very strong woman, and
(11:40):
she's raising Tiffany's daughter, um as well as you know,
Tiffany's older sister, and I just, you know, I don't
see how she does it from day to day, you know. Um.
I remember one evening, this is while I was still
in detectives, I got a call from Lisa, and Lisa
said a Tiffany's daughter who she had custody of, had
(12:05):
asked her that day. You know, what happened to my mommy?
Is my mommy dead? You know, and that's just heartbreaking.
You know, it's heartbreaking to know that Tiffany has a mother,
a daughter, a sister, um family out there who loves
her and cares about her, you know, despite her lifestyle
or the circumstances surrounding her disappearance. Do you believe that
(12:27):
Tiffany is still out there? I would like to believe
for Lisa's sake, you know that she is in my heart,
you know, I feel like that she's not on this
earth anymore. But I understand also for Lisa that, you know,
there is always that glimmer of hope until she has
(12:49):
the closure of you know, knowing for certain. And I
think that's the most devastating part for her family, is
the not knowing. Lisa and I have talked about this,
but we've talked about you know, there have been some
positives that have come from it. You know, after I
left detectives, after spending ten years work in those kind
(13:11):
of cases and those kind of crimes, I just felt
like it was time I needed a break, and a
position in our training academy became available, and so I
took that position, and Lisa and I had talked prior
to me leaving detectives about, you know, how great it
would be to be able to train um, other officers
(13:34):
and other investigators and how to look at these cases
and to look at them a little bit differently and
not just as a number, not just as a statistic,
but as you know, as a as a person, as
this being somebody's family member. I ended up developing a
missing person's investigation class um that I teach to other
(13:58):
investigators now, you know, And it's kind of the good
and the bad and the ugly of these kind of
investigations and lessons learned that I learned from work in
this case, you know that I try to share with
other investigators now, so you know, there are a few
positives that have come, you know, from from such a
(14:20):
sad case. When you work these these types of cases,
and and you've done this job for a long time,
you do have a tendency to become jaded and the
things that you see and experience, you know, My hope
is that even through all of that, whenever one of
these cases comes across, you know, a detective's desk, that
(14:43):
they take a second to think about it and and
and realize that, hey, this is this is someone's loved one,
this is someone's daughter, son, mother, father, um. And they
keep that in the back of their minds whenever, you know,
they move forward throughout the case because there are people
that that care about them despite the circumstances, and and
(15:05):
that do want answers and that deserve answers. Do you
think enough is being done on the case right now?
I do believe so. I mean, unfortunately, you know, we're
four plus years into it now and the leads are
just not there like they used to be. The tips,
you know, are not there. So certainly I do believe
(15:28):
that if if tips are coming in, that they are
being followed up on and they are being worked as
they should be. I think the problem is is there's
just not really enough information coming in. Honestly, the case
was a cold case when we got it um, because
we were already four months behind the behind the curve,
and so it's just continued as we you know, have
(15:49):
moved forward to get colder and colder. And really all
it's gonna take, though, is is someone coming forward with
the right piece of information and to tie everything together.
You know, typically when women go missing or have been murdered,
it's usually someone that's close to her or an acquaintance.
(16:10):
It's not generally a stranger on stranger type crime, so
it's usually someone that knows her that is, you know, um, boyfriend, husband, spouse,
something of that nature. So those are typically the people
that we always look at first. Anyway, just statistically speaking,
but any time that we've explored other options, we still
(16:32):
keep coming back to the same path. Do you still
talk to John Dawes about the case? I do talk
to John, and we always talk about the case. Anytime
I I see him, I ask him, you know, any
any new leads, any updates, anything going on, um, you know,
in hopes that one day he may have a bit
(16:53):
of news for me, you know, or I'll get a
phone call one day and to say, hey, you know,
we got something here. You know, that's the hope. Anyway, Hello,
Hi Mike, how are you good? How are you good?
It's great to talk to you, you too, wonderful. Could
we start really quickly with an introduction. You just tell
(17:14):
us your name and your title. Michael frere former marry
at a police detective. Awesome, and you were the first
detective on Tiffany's witness case or the second the second
detective Muller was the first, Okay, And when did you
get involved? Um? Once Detectivemullar got transferred to a different unit,
I was assigned the case, so I got involved immediately
after she left the unit. And so I know that
(17:38):
this happened in two thousand thirteen. So what year do
you get involved. I believe I got involved at the
end of two thousand fourteen into two thousand fifteen. And
how long were you on the case. I was on
the case for over a year, and then I was
transferred to the training unit, and so that's why your
involvement in the case stopped. Yeah, did stop when I
(18:01):
got transferred and it was assigned to somebody else. So
what was the very first thing you did on this
case after Mueller passed it over to you. The first
thing I did is I reviewed the whole case file
again until I actually sat down with Johnny Mueller and
talked to her about it and where we were going.
And the first thing I did after that after reviewing
(18:22):
the case is myself another detective went down to Columbus,
Georgia to prison down there and interviewed Ashley Caudle again.
Because Johnny had already interviewed him, I decided to see
maybe he'll be a little more talkative with a different detective.
So myself and another detective went down to Columbus and
(18:43):
interviewed him. It's not about a forty five minute interview.
Nothing new came out of him. He basically followed the
pattern he told Detective Mueller, you know of what happened
the night that Tiffany disappeared. But I wanted to just
look him in the face because I had never dealt
with him before. So that's the main reason I went
down there, is just to see who I was dealing with.
(19:05):
What was it like looking him in the face. He
was what I expected what Johnny had told me, arrogant
and uh full of himself. And once I got down there,
and as soon as he started talking, and I I said,
we're not gonna gaily knew out of him. He's just
gonna tell the same same stuff he's told everybody else.
But I had to do it, you know, it had
to be done so right. And did he seem receptive
(19:27):
to talking? Was he he did? He like he talked
a lot, not anything that He talked about things that
really didn't involve her disappearance. You know, he'd go off subject.
I had to bring him back the subject. But he
talked a lot. He talked about his family life and
how he's he's unable to have an access to anything.
(19:48):
And he was basically whining about how he was treated
in prison. And like I just said, don't listen to
his prison and it's not to do with me. I don't.
I'm not in charge of being in here, you know,
here incarcerated for something else. I'm just here to get information.
And then he would get back on subject for a
little while, and I asked him about, you know, go
over them one to night when it just when she
disappeared and all that, and he would just tell me
(20:09):
the same thing that he told Detective Moller. You know,
he didn't know what happened to her, you know, blah
blah blah. Then he go off subject again and all Honestly,
it was a waste of my time to go down there,
but I, you know, I figured might as well do it,
you know, that's the right thing to do anyway, right,
to look him in the face and see did he
ever seemed like he had any feelings of sadness or
(20:33):
remorse or like missed Tiffany. He mentioned that he missed her,
and you know, oh yeah, his thing was if I
could help find her, I would, you know, he came
across is aloof to the whole thing, you know, like whatever,
you know, he would tell me, you know, I loved
I hope they find her, hope she's all right. But
in my opinion, he didn't seem like he really gave
(20:53):
her care in the world about whatever happened to her,
just you know, based on looking at him in the
eye and talk to him. Did he ever talk about
Tiffany anything personal about her, like her personal life, or
talk about her characteristics or was it just surface stuff
and stuff he did. He talked a little bit about
her mom and however mom thinks that he was involved.
(21:17):
Obviously he doesn't care for for a lease at all.
I looked at him, and I didn't say what I
wanted to say, but yeah, but I kept it professional.
But you know, he basically started talking about how Lesa's
thinks he was involved and he's not. She's out to
get him. But so I had to bring him back
from that again and get him back on you know,
(21:37):
all we ever talked about Tiffany was surf official stuff
and how you know I wouldn't involved. I wish I
could help you find her and all that type of stuff.
He never dealt into anything. It was really a very
frustrating interview. As the other detectives said in their way
home the Atlanta, he said, that was a waste of time.
And do you think that it's possible he would ever
veer from his story on his own initiative of his
(21:59):
own Um, you know, the only way he would change
his story is if it benefited him. He's out for himself.
Just Johnny realized that when she interviewed him. I'm sure.
And then I realized that he's only he's out for himself.
If he can get any do anything to make himself
look better and get out of his predicament of being
in jail for drugs, he would do it. But otherwise, No,
(22:23):
how long is he in there for, Dad, I don't know.
I know it was a drug charge. I think it
was a trafficking charge, but I'm not sure how long
he's in there. He got transferred from that prison to
another one, which I don't know which one he went into.
So that was the very first thing you did on
the case. So what was the very last thing you
did on the case. There was a lot of things,
I mean I did. Uh. We interviewed a guy at
the jail who said he had information at the cop
(22:44):
County jail. We followed up on what he told us
and that turned out to be nothing. He was another
person involved in the drug world. I can't give you
his name, but he because he's still involved in other things.
But he gave us some information with we followed up
on and it was a dead end. Gave us some names.
I only found one of the person that he gave us.
(23:06):
An interview that person about what he knew, and he
basically said, well, this is what I heard. This is
what I heard. So he's its secondhand knowledge. I've never
been able to get firsthand knowledge. Is somebody actually knows
saw her that night and knows what happened to her.
So I would get oh, I heard you know the
old I heard. Well, I heard that she disappeared. I
(23:27):
heard that she was in a truck. I heard, But
you know, it's nothing concrete. So do you believe that
someone out there has that firsthand knowledge? Yes, I firmly
believe that somebody knows. And the only way I think
that that's ever going to come out at this person
that knows, or these people maybe there's more than one
his face with a situation where I better give you
(23:48):
this information because it's going to help me. I really
think that some of these people have come forward with
the information are just looking for an angle and they're
just repeating with other people said. I definitely think there's
people out there that, you know, what happened to her,
know where she is, and I wish somebody would come
forward and do that and contacted Cop Count of d
(24:08):
A's office and and tell them listen, this is my situation.
But I know exactly what happened that night because somebody knows.
Besides Ashley, somebody knows. I think so too, And it's
so frustrating, just I mean because at least it's such
a great lady. It's just I just and her family
is very nice. I just want something good to come
(24:30):
out of it, you know, just some closure for them,
because obviously nothing they know. There's very little if no
chance that she's still with us. So but we'd like
to be able to give that family something to remember where, hey,
we can we have a place we can put her
for her final arresting place and said wherever she is,
you know, right. So that's the most frustrating part about
(24:52):
the case because I did a lot of interviews, I
made phone calls, granted, and the whole thing with that,
I was still working. I was a homicide detecting, married too,
my sides at the same time I was trying to
work Tiffany, so you know, I tried to work it
when I could. It was frustrating, and I know Lisa
was frustrated, and everybody's frustrated. Really, why were you assigned
Tiffany's case? Because I was crimes against persons and they
(25:16):
knew that. I. Uh, Johnny and I are pretty close,
and in fact, I was her training officer when she
got hired, so they thought I'd be the best person
for the job. Because you know, I'm not bragging anything,
but once I get ahold of something, I'd like to
work it till I can work it no longer. You know,
how did you feel when you were leading the case?
You know that The thing is, I didn't feel real
good because I didn't think I made any progress at all.
(25:38):
You know, I thought I worked it, but I don't.
I didn't think I made it any closer to finding really,
just because of saying I was getting the same story
from all the different people and the same leads were
dead ends. And I worked really hard, but I don't
think I really made a dent and it, to be
honest with you, because nobody was telling me the truth,
you know, so they took it away from me. Granted
(26:01):
I was getting transferred. I just felt like I didn't
really get Lesa any I didn't do anything different than
than Johnny had because we still hadn't gotten to the
I was hoping when I got the case, you know,
we could find a conclusion for her, but we never did.
So it was very frustrating, and it's still frustrating today
because I still, you know, I think about it, and
(26:21):
then of course you hear about it. Even though I'm
retired now, I still, you know, I still have Plus
I see my friends with Lesa on Facebook, so I
can see the frustration in her too. So I didn't
feel like I made a difference in the whole thing.
To be honest with you, is there something in particular
that you wish you could have accomplished. Well, the main
thing besides finding her obviously, is find that certain person
(26:45):
that knows what happened. Like I said earlier, there's somebody
out there that knows what happened. And the thing is
with the whole drug world. And I worked in narcotics
for years before I became a detective. They're all liars.
They're only out for themselves. You know. That's the real
frustrating because the drug world, you know, what can you
(27:05):
do for me? It's all about quesion with methamphetamine or
heroine or anyone, And it's just they're worried about their
next high and more than they're worried about helping people,
you know. So that's part was very aggravating. I just
wish I could have found that person that knows what happened,
because there is somebody. I'm sure I know there is,
But somebody, somebody's gonna get arrested, they're gonna find they're
(27:29):
gonna say, listen, I'm facing this. This is what I got,
and this is and that leads gonna lead us to her.
I really believe that was there actually a particular person
that you couldn't find or you couldn't ever make contact
with No, not really every name that I got from
that informant at the jail. He gave me several names.
(27:50):
Every name that either I couldn't find that person. Well,
I did find a lot of more incarcerated, so I
interviewed him at the jail, interview one guy actually even
using court. He was actually going to a state court
on a probation violation. I found him in court and
I interviewed him. That was another waste of time. I've
had people come into the police department and tell me
(28:11):
they have information on Tiffany, and I would take him
in the interview room, set up the whole interview room
and it would be the same. Well, I heard that
this happened, and I heard that this happened, no direct evidence, none.
I interviewed probably eight to ten, either drug dealers or
(28:31):
drug users. And I really thought that informed from the
jail was going to be a great lead, but it
turned out it really wasn't. But the drug world, I
worked at d e A for a little while as
a test force guy, so I know how these people think,
so right, So I know Tiffany was involved in the
drug world obviously, and with her boyfriend Ashley and everything
(28:51):
like that. Besides all that, who do you think Tiffany was?
Did you feel like you started to know her? There's
articles about her, there's not a lot of specifics on
who she kind of actually was. Well, just talking to
Lisa and just I'm looking at Tiffany the Facebook page
for Tiffany, you know, just before she got hooked on
and you could tell that she was a great mom.
(29:12):
You look at her pictures before she got involved in drugs.
What a beautiful young girl. And she got involved in
drugs and it just ran her life. And you know,
her daughter was not involved because the drugs were more involved.
And but if you look at her early before she
got involved, I mean, I did a little background on
her and just I mean I went back to look
at her high school pictures and stuff, and you know,
(29:33):
looking at what she was involving and when she was
younger before she got hooked on drugs and what I mean,
what a different person. Obviously a great mom until she
got hooked in the dope world. So the whole things
as a shame. What was your relationship with Lisa, Like
she spoke highly of you, you and Johnny both. She's
(29:53):
such a great lady. I mean I really would. Like
I said, I wish I could have done more, But
in my relationship with her was very good. I I
try to keep her updated. She would call me and
I wouldn't just you know, ignore her phone calls. If
I could get back to her right away, I would.
If not, I would get back to as soon as
I could. I try to keep her updated. I mean
I felt for I just like I said, I wouldn't
(30:14):
looked at Tiffany's life before the drugs took over, and
I just feel for his mother. You know, are you
apparent yourself? I am. I have a daughter. My daughter
is young, but still I could see what the world
of drugs does, not only females, but males too, obviously,
but I think females in a different way, just because
they can do other things to get drugs, which is,
(30:37):
you know what you like, prostitution and stuff like. I
don't know if Tiffany was ever involved in that, but
I've seen it so working in the narcotics, right, yeah,
you see especially what influence of drugs can do. You
don't do anything to get that high. So yeah, Lisa
is great. It was great to work with her and
(30:58):
talk to her and she seems very involved. I've worked
a lot of cases, but she was very involved. I
think it helped her to be involved. And I think
especially john Johnny is really close at least I'm not
as closest as Thick the Muller is, but just I
think that personal relationship you get had with especially Johnny,
but with me too, helped her because she knows she
(31:19):
can call either of us. Back then and even now,
if she called me, I would tell her if I
heard anything. But you know, I'm out of the game, really,
so I want to find I want Leasta to find
out what happened, and I want to find out what happened.
I want to know what the heck happened at night
because it's like she vanished in the thin air, which
we know is doesn't happen. So somebody knows something. And
(31:40):
I don't think Ashley is gonna help us. He's an arrogant,
you know, he thinks he's I don't know if narcissist
is the right word, but he's who knows what, he's
sociopath or something. But he he's cold and if it
doesn't help him, he's not gonna say nothing. Do you
think enough is being done to find at what happened
to Tiffany. I think the fact that the d A's
(32:03):
Office cold case unit has they have a lot more
time on their hands. They have more time to just
focus on it. Granted they get other cases and there's
cold case homicides, but I think that the d A's
Office having the case and being maybe I don't off
the butt there the primary on it, but just the
fact that they have the case over there, and they've
got seasons retired detectives over there that will help. They'll
(32:26):
look at it. And John Dawes was the cold case
director over there. He was a great homicide detective at
cop Police Department. So if anybody can come up with leads,
he can. He's just he's really don't tell John I
said this, but he's really good detective. Do you still
talk to John about the case? I do. In fact,
I'm I'm technically still assigned to that unit since I retired.
I can still go over there just having a timestin.
(32:48):
I'm probably going to go. Yeah, I'm probably gonna go
back over there after the after Christmas and work a
couple of days, three or four hours a day, and
I'm thinking about if I get over there, I can
just everybody can work on some stuff. I'll just grab
Tiffany's files and I'll read them, reread them again, all
the supplementals, and maybe I can find a name that
(33:09):
nobody found. You know, I can focus on just one thing,
which will Back when I had her case, I was
focused on twenty other cases too, you know. So that's
my plan, hopefully after the first of the year, is
to go over there. And I'm still assigned there technically,
I mean i still have my passed to get in
the building and I'm still assigned to the cold case unit.
So after the first year, I'm going to go over there.
(33:31):
There's a couple of homicides I'm interested in working that
our ours from Maryetta plus Jeffany's case, so maybe I
can come up with something. I'll let Thesa know that
i'm gonna want to go over there. I'll just I'm
gonna go over here. I'm gonna take a look and
I look at her case, so I know she'll be
happy about that. Yeah, So that's my plan. I wish
we could find out what happened now solving it. Who knows,
(33:53):
we might not solve it but we need a location
where she is so we can give the family closure
now after these many years. Is whether we can find
evidence wherever we find Tiffany, I don't know. But if
we can just find something to let Lisa no listen,
here's something you can use and you can have some closure,
that'd be important to me. Whether we can charge anybody
or not, that'd be great. But if we can get
(34:15):
lesa some closure, that'd be the most important thing in
my opinion. If we can charge somebody, that'd be fine too.
Thanks for listening, guys. Swarn is going on hiatus for
a few months for the holidays and while our team
prepares for you a v live Atlanta Monster and Up
and Vanished season two. Stay tuned on our feed for
more details you. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
(34:51):
Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason Lindsay and Meredith
Steadman and myself Philip Holloway executive producers Donald Albright and
Haye Lindsay. And if you have it yet, please check
out our sister podcast, Up and Vanished that follows the
investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High school teacher and
beauty Queen Tara Grinstead Up and Vantaged is available now
(35:12):
on Apple Podcasts. Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings.
If you're in the market for podcast production, go to
Resonate Recordings dot com to get your first episode produced
for free. If you haven't already, please head over to
iTunes now to subscribe, rate, and review Sworn, and make
sure you check us out online at sworn podcast dot
(35:34):
com and follow us on social media at Sworn podcast
on Twitter and Instagram, and you can follow me your host,
Philip Holloway at phil holloway e s Q on Twitter.
Thanks for listening. This is Philip Halloway and I'll see
you next time on Sworn Steep Washing. I see blood
(36:07):
in the water, Jammy, Jammy, Blood in the water.
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