June 29, 2017 • 27 mins
This episode of Closing Statements takes a final look at the mysterious double murder at Lake Oconee. Mixed by ResonateRecordings.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Place your left hand on the bay and Bible and
raise your right hand and repeat after me. I solemnly
swear the jury trying it intended not scars and around
the country. It makes no sense. If it doesn't fit,
you must equit. Judge. You are the last line of
(00:29):
reason in this casey very one of those took out
all the topothis, and we're sworn to uphold the Constitution.
From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is sworn. I'm your host,
Philip Holloway. Here's my final thoughts on the Lake of
Coney murders. First, going into this, I felt a deep
(00:52):
sadness for the Derman's and for those who knew and
loved them. Now that I've seen the case evidence, particularly
the photographs, and now the I have a better understanding
of the savagery of those murders. I'm angry that there's
some sick bastard out there who may very well get
away with this. Secondly, I empathize with Sheriff Sells. If
there's anything else he could possibly do. I don't have
(01:15):
any idea what that would be. He left literally no
stone unturned. There's a lot of things that he did
in this case that if it were my case, I
might not have thought to do, but he had the
presence of mind to do them. Some things about this
investigation were purposely left out of the podcast, but let
me just say this, if I ever turn up missing
(01:36):
or murdered, he would be the person that I would
want investigating my case. Thirdly, here's what I think. I
know with a high degree of confidence. This was not random.
This was not done by a professional. This was not
done by the mob. I agree with the sheriff that Mr.
Dermot's head was likely removed to hide or to destroy
(01:58):
some type of evidence. I do believe a gun was involved,
and so does the sheriff. None of the Derman's children
had any role in this. You have to keep in
mind that they've been cleared, they cooperated with the investigation.
You have to understand that whoever did this was not
familiar with the inside of the dermans residence. So, assuming
(02:21):
that what I just said is right, and I think
it is, here's what I think did happen. I believe
that two or more adult locals arrived in the early
morning by boat. Nobody saw any strange vehicles, but somebody
did see an adult male in the Derman's yard that Saturday.
There were no unaccounted for boat rentals and there were
(02:43):
no reported boat thefts, so I do think it was
locals with a boat. Whoever did this certainly had a
dark personality side. It may have even been someone with
a murder fantasy. I think that the person or persons
responsible for these murders went to the Derman's house because
they wanted to extort Mr Dermott. After all, Mr Derman
(03:05):
was perceived at least to have access to some cash.
That raises the question of how are you going to
extort Mr Dermot, And that's where Mrs Derman comes in.
I believe that she was going to be abducted for ransom,
but that Mr Dermot tried to fight physically fight to
prevent that abduction, and then the whole plan fell apart.
(03:28):
That would account for Mr Dermant's apparent defensive wound to
his hand. Remember, she was killed with a blunt object,
a hammer or something similar to it, and I think
he was shot. He may have also been beaten, but
I do think he was shot. And then while the
body of Mrs Derman was being bound and weighted down
and sunk to the bottom of the lake. I think
(03:51):
someone or some one's remained behind at the home to
decapitate Mr Dermant's body, and then after Mrs Derman was
to bosed of in the lake, whoever was in that
boat returned to the Derman residence, and then everyone, along
with Mr Derman's head, left by boat. Given the evidence
(04:12):
that I've seen with my own eyes and based on
my discussions with the sheriff and others, that's the most
plausible explanation I can think of. And here's the worst
of it. If I'm right, there's a killer or killers
on the loose right now who live on or near
Lake Okoni. And unless somebody who knows something makes that
(04:35):
one phone call, they may very well get away with it,
or even worse, they may do it again. So before
(05:00):
Sworn moves on to other issues in other cases, I
wanted to look into one other question that's been on
my mind, and that question is what kind of person
would do something like this? What sort of twisted psychology
might be involved here? Those of you who listen to
our sister podcast Up and Vanished, you're no doubt familiar
with Dr Maurice Godwin. I reached out to Maurice to
(05:23):
talk to him about this very question. I mean, the
crime itself is very unusual. You know, after reading everything
that I've could, I think that one of the main
motives behind this was retribution. I mean, anytime that you're
in business and making that kind of money, there's always
a chance that you've crossed someone, but you don't ever
(05:47):
know it. It's definitely somebody with a criminal history. You
are likely find them in the burglary files. There's no
doubt about that. Likely that the motive was a retribution.
And I do not believe that the head was taken
for shock value. I don't believe that the head was
taken for a trophy or anything like that. It was
(06:11):
personal and the head was taken to show that they
meant business there. And I think it was the ultimate revenge,
the ultimate retribution, and I think that that that's exactly
what it was. This is what I call a cognitive
object individual. Their cognitive awareness during the crime that anything
(06:36):
but leaving evidence that are very forensically aware. But the
object part is how they see the victim. Rather than
seeing a victim as a vehicle, the vendor age, rage
and anger on, they saw the victim as an object,
just a lifeless things sort of like a mannequin. And
so when you see something a person like that as
(06:58):
an object, then you don't have any kind of repercussions
psychological guilt or anything like that. When you do something
like removing the head, they have a sociopath tendencies of
no remorse, no empathy, no conscious They have no empathy.
(07:20):
They cannot empathize that like for example, other people cry
or other people hurt and have feelings. They don't have
any relationship to that. But this person here solve These
people there's nothing but objects, are lifeless mannequin and that's
(07:41):
all they did. And removing the head. Doing what they
did to his wife was just like going to get
a hamburger. When you step into someone in one's house,
and especially the house that biggest stuff, uh, and you've
never really done that before, you are out to make
mistake X. But if you've been in people's houses illegally,
(08:03):
breaking enter and stuff like that, and you've done it
on a regular basis and stuff you're comfortable at, like
you're at home, so you're very more forensically aware. These
people were very forensically aware. These are the type of
people who see people as objects, objects to control, objects
(08:25):
to treat like a lifeless thing, a mannequin. That's exactly
how they saw these people here. These are the type
of people that will not talk about this, So it's
gonna be through investigative work that you're gonna have to
link them. It's not gonna be that somebody said something
(08:46):
to somebody else and and causing a til um. You're
looking at somebody that's uh in their late thirties early forties.
Based on the type of crime. It was the age
of the victims, in the sophistication, the elaborate planning that
they did with this. This was a drawn out They
(09:07):
drew this out on paper, and they planned this out
and they pulled it off just like a military exercise.
These people did exactly what they meant to do. They
were planning to cut his head off before they ever
stepped foot on his property. There's no doubt about it.
The age, I mean, just considering doing this to a
(09:30):
real elderly couple, a man cut eighty eight years always stuff.
This was really personal. Somebody had hate. Something went wrong
in this guy's background that he didn't realize that was
bad as it was this was a random thing. Somebody
had a personal revenge and they sought retribution against this person.
(10:08):
Good afternoon, Sheriff. Thanks for talking with me again. Thanks
thanks for having me. We've learned a lot about the
double murder of the Dermans. You know, last time we
spoke and when we visited with you, we briefly covered
the family members. But can you elaborate on how you
eliminated family and close friends as suspects in this case. Yes,
(10:29):
obviously we obtained cell phone records of the children. The
estate of the Dermans passed only to their children, although
there was one grandchild who did get a very small
amount of money, but the three children inherited the estate. Obviously,
(10:49):
we had their cell phone records, which included the tower
sites that we're being hit during the time of the crime.
None of those tower site for anywhere in the state
of Georgia, much less near the German home. Obviously, that
doesn't completely eliminate someone, but we polygraphed all three of
(11:10):
the children, and of course they all passed the polygraphs.
Nothing in the course of our investigation so far has
revealed any sort of animosity or anything like that. Between
There are no children and the victims. So through a
combination of the totality of all of that, we eliminated them.
(11:33):
Now you've been shared for what over twenty years now,
And of course I wouldn't presume to know what you
plan to do in the future. But if it just
so happens that your retirement comes before that break in
the case, how would that affects you personally? If it
happens that you retire and there's there's never any resolution
to this case. First of all, let me say I
(11:54):
don't have any intentions of retiring anytime soon. And secondly,
if I did retire, I certainly would like to if
that were to happen, I would not just turn over
all these boxes and files. I'd like to sit down
and explain everything I knew about the case. It's the
only way that you could do that and do your
(12:15):
duty before you retire. And even if I retired, I
would certainly be available and willing to help in any
way you met my retirement. But let me stress again,
just because I've been sure for over twenty years doesn't
mean I'm ready to retire. What is the current situation
of the reward that's available and what is required for
(12:37):
someone to be eligible to receive that reward. I don't
have the total. When I first solicted that reward, the
FBI contributed. I have money pledged by various organizations. But
when I solicited that money, I asked that they give
me that money for a year. If we didn't use it,
I'd give it back And and many of the people
(12:58):
who made those contributions then asked for the money back,
and that distributed back to them. I don't know what
the total is right now. I presumed the FBI still
have ten thousand available. I don't know how many thousands
I have here, But that's for information that will lead
us to an arrest of the person or persons responsible
(13:19):
for perpetrating this crime. Since the last time we spoke
about the Lake o'coni murder, Sheriff, you found yourself back
in the national news with another double murder on your hands.
Would you like to give our listeners from Insight into
that case. Well, unfortunately, last Tuesday, you're in Putnam County
and state prison bus was traveling through our county and
too prisoners and the bus somehow got up into the
(13:43):
driver's compartment and quite viciously murdered the two corrections officers
and got out of the bus, carjack and individuals who
was motors who were simply passing by, and then fled
from the area, which quickly evolved and to the nationwide
man hunt culminated a couple of last Thursday evening up
(14:07):
and Rutherford Kenny, Tennessee near Murfreesboro. And obviously I was
leading that man hunt. It was probably the biggest man
hunt that drew the most attention. The desperate man hunt
going nationwide. Tonight, two inmates in Georgia overpowering their guards
and a prison bus, killing them using the officer's own weapons.
(14:30):
The inmates then getting away in a stolen vehicle. They
car jacked officials now warning they are armed and dangerous.
This is forty three year old Donnie Row and twenty
four year old Ricky debos Uh. They were on their
way from one prison to another. There they are when
investigators say that they busted out of the locked part
of that bus. Now they overpowered two guards, stole their
(14:50):
weapons and killed them both in front of thirty one
other inmates. Georgia authorities tonight tell us that the inmates
who got away after murdering two prison guards out running
around with forty caliber glocks and could kill again a
terrible sudden act of violence, launching a statewide manhunt for
Donnie Row and Ricky Dubos. Considered armed and dangerous, there
(15:12):
is a sixty thousand dollar reward tonight for their capture.
On the run now for sixteen plus hours, put New
County police are desperately searching for these two fugitives. Forty
three year old Donnie Row and twenty four year old
Ricky DuBose both are career criminals who are serving hard time,
and police say one of them is a member of
the Ghost Faced Gangsters, a white supremacist prison gang. All
(15:39):
arms of law enforcement are now gathered here. They are
doing searches. They continue even though it is dark. The
worry here is to find those two convicts before they
hurt anyone else. The card dating white, they are in
a great ob Alperabat meantime, officers from all jurisdictions are
checking out each and every reported sighting of the escape
(16:00):
beats and telling residents be on the lookout for this
green Honda Civic and these two faces. The bus ride
from where they escaped early this morning was unscheduled and
was moving thirty three inmates from one prison to another.
Atolice say the two men broke through a locked barrier
and back and attack prison transfer. Sergeant's Christopher Monica and
Curtis Blue both lead behind devastated families tonight. They need
(16:26):
to surrender before we find them. I saw two brutally
murdered chrish saw. That's what I saw. I have their
blood on my shoes. On June, just one day before
the release of Sworn, these two convicted armed robbers allegedly
(16:46):
shot and killed to Georgia corrections officers during a prison transport,
and they happened to have done this in Putnam County.
Share Sills, of course, was one of the first riding
officers and let a nationwide man hunt that wound up
in Tennessee following a series of carjackings, carths of breaking
and entering, a home invasion, and finally ending in Tennessee
(17:10):
following a high speed police chase where they actually shot
at the deputies with guns that were stolen from the
murder victims in Georgia. Sheriff Sills said that this high
speed chase ended in Moore County, Tennessee seventy five miles
southeast of Nashville. Just a few days later, Sheriff Sells
went personally to pick them up and bring them back
(17:31):
to Georgia, where they now face capital murder charges and
are facing the death penalty. A lot of people are
asking about DNA or the lack of DNA. Was there
ever any DNA of any type that was collected that
could not have been identified? Every piece of tangible evidence
that was there or any place that we thought there
(17:53):
would be. We submitted that to the LAMB. I won't
elaborate on what results may or may not pasulting from
their tests. There's a lot of people that are asking
about a deceased child of the Dermans that had been
murdered some years prior to this. Was that episode looked
at and do you think there's any connection? Yes, obviously
(18:17):
when we heard that they had a son who had
been murdered, we obviously lioked to that immediately. Almost the
dun was moved here, had been living here for fourteen years.
They left the Metro Atlanta area in two thousand, shortly
after their son was murdered. Their son was not a
(18:37):
drug trafficker, He was not in any cartail. He was
none of the their son unfortunately, was like so many
people that I've dealt with over the years, and this
one son who was a drug annic, and as many
people know, they start doing anything to get their drugs.
You know. This this was a typical scenario where you know,
(19:00):
he'd stolen from his parents and did death. So eventually
actually did a robbery one time up in New York
and he was in and out of rehab and things
like that. And on his birthday of the year two thousand,
he and another individual went over and west side of Atlanta,
kent over near the area they called the Bluff today,
(19:22):
which is well known drug area in the city of Atlanta,
and he had a friend went over there to buy
some drugs. I highly suspected he probably was using some
money that he gotten for his birthday. And unfortunately they
pulled up on the street to a drug dealer over there,
and that individual apparently was not settling that day that
the individual was ribbing and shot both of them in
(19:45):
their car. The nerman son died there at the scene.
The other individual lived and someone was arrested, prosecuted, tried
for murder and is presently in prison from the murder
of the Durwan boy and aggravody assault of the other person.
That person survived, of course, you know the Nermans that
didn't go to the trial. We or people told us
(20:06):
that there was getting ready to be a parole here.
Absolutely untrue. People told us that the dervants had written
letters to the prole board. Did not happen. There certainly
seems to be no nexus between his murderer and his parents.
Were We saw the guard shack at the entrance to
their subdivision at the time. It did not have gates.
(20:29):
But was it a situation inteen where if you lived
there and you were expecting a guest or a visitor,
that you would have to call the guard shack, call
security and leave their name at the front. Yes, there
wasn't a bar there as there is now, or the scanner.
If you were remember of rentals or had a work
(20:51):
per minute, in short, if you had a rental sticker
for you Winshield issue to you, you were way through.
If not, the procedure was that someone had to call
ahead to allow you admitting. Of course, unless you were
said you were going to the clubhouse for dinner or
something like that and you were way through it at
that time. Obviously we chet those records. Needs to say,
(21:12):
at least at this point in time, that did not
believe anything it was beneficial to us. To your knowledge,
were they expecting any visitors or any contractors or anybody
like that to come to their home. Not to my knowledge,
but you know, contractors went in and out of there constantly.
A contractor with a propriate documentation was way through. Those
(21:34):
people who have listened to the podcast and have subsequently
gone back and looked over other publicly available information, the
overwhelming theory seems to be that whoever did this came
and left by boat. Do you believe that to be
the case. Not necessarily I don't. They certainly could have.
I will say this Mrs Nerman's body because of where
(21:58):
it was and where we were covered it over on
the Green County side of the lake in an uninhabited
area that was not accessible by the vehicle. That, in
combination with the weights being on our body, the hydraulics
of the water movement itself, all of those factors, and
(22:18):
we consulted with Georgia Power about water flow hydraulic experts
at the University of Georgia made us comfortable knowing that
her body had not moved very far once it begin
to ascend from the bottom. Therefore, we are confident that
her body was disposed of by boat. And obviously she
(22:40):
could have been transported, and all of this could have
happened by water, but it also could have happened by
ground transportation, or it could have happened by boat. What
about the weather between the Saturday when you believe they
were murdered and the Tuesday when they were found. Was
(23:00):
there any weather activity that could have interfered with any
forensic evidence that may be present outside the home. No,
I can't remember right now. Obviously we probably have that documented,
but there was nothing evident outside. It was a For instance,
it was very clear from where blood was insider in
regards to the decapitation procedure itself, that it the garage
(23:23):
doors were shut at the time. That was very clear
from physical evidence at the scene, but the newspapers and
things like that had not been collected for a couple
of days they were driving. Through my knowledge, there have
been no extensive rain or anything from the time of
the murder until the time we discovered Mr. Dermot's body.
How do you search an entire exterior or front yard
(23:47):
and backyard of this residence. For this particular case, we
even searched beyond that. You take a hundred deputy shares
and you put them an arm to arm and you
walked through the woods. Sheriff, are you still making yourself
available to investigate any new leads that may come up
in this case? Absolutely peeled and the best example, you know,
(24:09):
we got some information doesn't look like it's going to
be anything to it last Friday, right when I was
still very much in the aftermath of this most recent
double murder here at this county in obviously, I stopped
what I was doing and responded to that and assigned
some some people to do some things based on that
information that was Friday. It doesn't look like it's going
(24:31):
to be anything to it. But I mentioned that only
to assure everyone that we're still working on this case
and are going to continue to work on it and
continue to work on it aggressively if and as any
information comes For so, if anybody has any information that
they think could be helpful, what's the best way for
(24:53):
them to get that information to you? Gota my office
at seven oh six or eight f eight seven, or
email me at shaff Seals at Puttingham County Sheriff dot
org one or the other. There's obviously tipline on our
website which is putting Them County Sheriff dot Org. And
I promise you we're gonna look into it and respond
(25:16):
to it. More than likely I will be responding to
it personally. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
(25:38):
Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're
in the market for podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings
dot com to get your first episode produced for free.
I'd personally like to say thank you to share Off
Seals for his time, and I wish you the best
of luck moving forward. I'd also like to thank you
the listeners for tuning in. We're currently working on several
(25:59):
new cases for upcoming episodes of Sworn. Each month we
will bring you a new multipart mini series exposing the
untold stories and the hard truths behind major cases, wrongful convictions,
controversial legislation, and much much more. Stay up to date
and subscribe to Sworn now on Apple Podcasts, and while
you're there, please rate and review Sworn. It helps us
(26:22):
move up in the charts and brings in new listeners.
Stay tuned right here in the coming weeks for a
sneak peak of what's coming next month on Sworn and
don't Forget. Our sister podcast, Up and Vanished, is approaching
its season one finale with only three main episodes left.
Subscribe and tune in too Up and Vanished every Monday.
(26:42):
Thanks for listening. Guys, See you soon, s I see't
(27:03):
I see heep. Blood in the Water, Jarmy Johnny see
Blood in the Water.
Place your left hand on the bay and Bible and
raise your right hand and repeat after me. I solemnly
swear the jury trying it intended not scars and around
the country. It makes no sense. If it doesn't fit,
you must equit. Judge. You are the last line of
(00:29):
reason in this casey very one of those took out
all the topothis, and we're sworn to uphold the Constitution.
From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is sworn. I'm your host,
Philip Holloway. Here's my final thoughts on the Lake of
Coney murders. First, going into this, I felt a deep
(00:52):
sadness for the Derman's and for those who knew and
loved them. Now that I've seen the case evidence, particularly
the photographs, and now the I have a better understanding
of the savagery of those murders. I'm angry that there's
some sick bastard out there who may very well get
away with this. Secondly, I empathize with Sheriff Sells. If
there's anything else he could possibly do. I don't have
(01:15):
any idea what that would be. He left literally no
stone unturned. There's a lot of things that he did
in this case that if it were my case, I
might not have thought to do, but he had the
presence of mind to do them. Some things about this
investigation were purposely left out of the podcast, but let
me just say this, if I ever turn up missing
(01:36):
or murdered, he would be the person that I would
want investigating my case. Thirdly, here's what I think. I
know with a high degree of confidence. This was not random.
This was not done by a professional. This was not
done by the mob. I agree with the sheriff that Mr.
Dermot's head was likely removed to hide or to destroy
(01:58):
some type of evidence. I do believe a gun was involved,
and so does the sheriff. None of the Derman's children
had any role in this. You have to keep in
mind that they've been cleared, they cooperated with the investigation.
You have to understand that whoever did this was not
familiar with the inside of the dermans residence. So, assuming
(02:21):
that what I just said is right, and I think
it is, here's what I think did happen. I believe
that two or more adult locals arrived in the early
morning by boat. Nobody saw any strange vehicles, but somebody
did see an adult male in the Derman's yard that Saturday.
There were no unaccounted for boat rentals and there were
(02:43):
no reported boat thefts, so I do think it was
locals with a boat. Whoever did this certainly had a
dark personality side. It may have even been someone with
a murder fantasy. I think that the person or persons
responsible for these murders went to the Derman's house because
they wanted to extort Mr Dermott. After all, Mr Derman
(03:05):
was perceived at least to have access to some cash.
That raises the question of how are you going to
extort Mr Dermot, And that's where Mrs Derman comes in.
I believe that she was going to be abducted for ransom,
but that Mr Dermot tried to fight physically fight to
prevent that abduction, and then the whole plan fell apart.
(03:28):
That would account for Mr Dermant's apparent defensive wound to
his hand. Remember, she was killed with a blunt object,
a hammer or something similar to it, and I think
he was shot. He may have also been beaten, but
I do think he was shot. And then while the
body of Mrs Derman was being bound and weighted down
and sunk to the bottom of the lake. I think
(03:51):
someone or some one's remained behind at the home to
decapitate Mr Dermant's body, and then after Mrs Derman was
to bosed of in the lake, whoever was in that
boat returned to the Derman residence, and then everyone, along
with Mr Derman's head, left by boat. Given the evidence
(04:12):
that I've seen with my own eyes and based on
my discussions with the sheriff and others, that's the most
plausible explanation I can think of. And here's the worst
of it. If I'm right, there's a killer or killers
on the loose right now who live on or near
Lake Okoni. And unless somebody who knows something makes that
(04:35):
one phone call, they may very well get away with it,
or even worse, they may do it again. So before
(05:00):
Sworn moves on to other issues in other cases, I
wanted to look into one other question that's been on
my mind, and that question is what kind of person
would do something like this? What sort of twisted psychology
might be involved here? Those of you who listen to
our sister podcast Up and Vanished, you're no doubt familiar
with Dr Maurice Godwin. I reached out to Maurice to
(05:23):
talk to him about this very question. I mean, the
crime itself is very unusual. You know, after reading everything
that I've could, I think that one of the main
motives behind this was retribution. I mean, anytime that you're
in business and making that kind of money, there's always
a chance that you've crossed someone, but you don't ever
(05:47):
know it. It's definitely somebody with a criminal history. You
are likely find them in the burglary files. There's no
doubt about that. Likely that the motive was a retribution.
And I do not believe that the head was taken
for shock value. I don't believe that the head was
taken for a trophy or anything like that. It was
(06:11):
personal and the head was taken to show that they
meant business there. And I think it was the ultimate revenge,
the ultimate retribution, and I think that that that's exactly
what it was. This is what I call a cognitive
object individual. Their cognitive awareness during the crime that anything
(06:36):
but leaving evidence that are very forensically aware. But the
object part is how they see the victim. Rather than
seeing a victim as a vehicle, the vendor age, rage
and anger on, they saw the victim as an object,
just a lifeless things sort of like a mannequin. And
so when you see something a person like that as
(06:58):
an object, then you don't have any kind of repercussions
psychological guilt or anything like that. When you do something
like removing the head, they have a sociopath tendencies of
no remorse, no empathy, no conscious They have no empathy.
(07:20):
They cannot empathize that like for example, other people cry
or other people hurt and have feelings. They don't have
any relationship to that. But this person here solve These
people there's nothing but objects, are lifeless mannequin and that's
(07:41):
all they did. And removing the head. Doing what they
did to his wife was just like going to get
a hamburger. When you step into someone in one's house,
and especially the house that biggest stuff, uh, and you've
never really done that before, you are out to make
mistake X. But if you've been in people's houses illegally,
(08:03):
breaking enter and stuff like that, and you've done it
on a regular basis and stuff you're comfortable at, like
you're at home, so you're very more forensically aware. These
people were very forensically aware. These are the type of
people who see people as objects, objects to control, objects
(08:25):
to treat like a lifeless thing, a mannequin. That's exactly
how they saw these people here. These are the type
of people that will not talk about this, So it's
gonna be through investigative work that you're gonna have to
link them. It's not gonna be that somebody said something
(08:46):
to somebody else and and causing a til um. You're
looking at somebody that's uh in their late thirties early forties.
Based on the type of crime. It was the age
of the victims, in the sophistication, the elaborate planning that
they did with this. This was a drawn out They
(09:07):
drew this out on paper, and they planned this out
and they pulled it off just like a military exercise.
These people did exactly what they meant to do. They
were planning to cut his head off before they ever
stepped foot on his property. There's no doubt about it.
The age, I mean, just considering doing this to a
(09:30):
real elderly couple, a man cut eighty eight years always stuff.
This was really personal. Somebody had hate. Something went wrong
in this guy's background that he didn't realize that was
bad as it was this was a random thing. Somebody
had a personal revenge and they sought retribution against this person.
(10:08):
Good afternoon, Sheriff. Thanks for talking with me again. Thanks
thanks for having me. We've learned a lot about the
double murder of the Dermans. You know, last time we
spoke and when we visited with you, we briefly covered
the family members. But can you elaborate on how you
eliminated family and close friends as suspects in this case. Yes,
(10:29):
obviously we obtained cell phone records of the children. The
estate of the Dermans passed only to their children, although
there was one grandchild who did get a very small
amount of money, but the three children inherited the estate. Obviously,
(10:49):
we had their cell phone records, which included the tower
sites that we're being hit during the time of the crime.
None of those tower site for anywhere in the state
of Georgia, much less near the German home. Obviously, that
doesn't completely eliminate someone, but we polygraphed all three of
(11:10):
the children, and of course they all passed the polygraphs.
Nothing in the course of our investigation so far has
revealed any sort of animosity or anything like that. Between
There are no children and the victims. So through a
combination of the totality of all of that, we eliminated them.
(11:33):
Now you've been shared for what over twenty years now,
And of course I wouldn't presume to know what you
plan to do in the future. But if it just
so happens that your retirement comes before that break in
the case, how would that affects you personally? If it
happens that you retire and there's there's never any resolution
to this case. First of all, let me say I
(11:54):
don't have any intentions of retiring anytime soon. And secondly,
if I did retire, I certainly would like to if
that were to happen, I would not just turn over
all these boxes and files. I'd like to sit down
and explain everything I knew about the case. It's the
only way that you could do that and do your
(12:15):
duty before you retire. And even if I retired, I
would certainly be available and willing to help in any
way you met my retirement. But let me stress again,
just because I've been sure for over twenty years doesn't
mean I'm ready to retire. What is the current situation
of the reward that's available and what is required for
(12:37):
someone to be eligible to receive that reward. I don't
have the total. When I first solicted that reward, the
FBI contributed. I have money pledged by various organizations. But
when I solicited that money, I asked that they give
me that money for a year. If we didn't use it,
I'd give it back And and many of the people
(12:58):
who made those contributions then asked for the money back,
and that distributed back to them. I don't know what
the total is right now. I presumed the FBI still
have ten thousand available. I don't know how many thousands
I have here, But that's for information that will lead
us to an arrest of the person or persons responsible
(13:19):
for perpetrating this crime. Since the last time we spoke
about the Lake o'coni murder, Sheriff, you found yourself back
in the national news with another double murder on your hands.
Would you like to give our listeners from Insight into
that case. Well, unfortunately, last Tuesday, you're in Putnam County
and state prison bus was traveling through our county and
too prisoners and the bus somehow got up into the
(13:43):
driver's compartment and quite viciously murdered the two corrections officers
and got out of the bus, carjack and individuals who
was motors who were simply passing by, and then fled
from the area, which quickly evolved and to the nationwide
man hunt culminated a couple of last Thursday evening up
(14:07):
and Rutherford Kenny, Tennessee near Murfreesboro. And obviously I was
leading that man hunt. It was probably the biggest man
hunt that drew the most attention. The desperate man hunt
going nationwide. Tonight, two inmates in Georgia overpowering their guards
and a prison bus, killing them using the officer's own weapons.
(14:30):
The inmates then getting away in a stolen vehicle. They
car jacked officials now warning they are armed and dangerous.
This is forty three year old Donnie Row and twenty
four year old Ricky debos Uh. They were on their
way from one prison to another. There they are when
investigators say that they busted out of the locked part
of that bus. Now they overpowered two guards, stole their
(14:50):
weapons and killed them both in front of thirty one
other inmates. Georgia authorities tonight tell us that the inmates
who got away after murdering two prison guards out running
around with forty caliber glocks and could kill again a
terrible sudden act of violence, launching a statewide manhunt for
Donnie Row and Ricky Dubos. Considered armed and dangerous, there
(15:12):
is a sixty thousand dollar reward tonight for their capture.
On the run now for sixteen plus hours, put New
County police are desperately searching for these two fugitives. Forty
three year old Donnie Row and twenty four year old
Ricky DuBose both are career criminals who are serving hard time,
and police say one of them is a member of
the Ghost Faced Gangsters, a white supremacist prison gang. All
(15:39):
arms of law enforcement are now gathered here. They are
doing searches. They continue even though it is dark. The
worry here is to find those two convicts before they
hurt anyone else. The card dating white, they are in
a great ob Alperabat meantime, officers from all jurisdictions are
checking out each and every reported sighting of the escape
(16:00):
beats and telling residents be on the lookout for this
green Honda Civic and these two faces. The bus ride
from where they escaped early this morning was unscheduled and
was moving thirty three inmates from one prison to another.
Atolice say the two men broke through a locked barrier
and back and attack prison transfer. Sergeant's Christopher Monica and
Curtis Blue both lead behind devastated families tonight. They need
(16:26):
to surrender before we find them. I saw two brutally
murdered chrish saw. That's what I saw. I have their
blood on my shoes. On June, just one day before
the release of Sworn, these two convicted armed robbers allegedly
(16:46):
shot and killed to Georgia corrections officers during a prison transport,
and they happened to have done this in Putnam County.
Share Sills, of course, was one of the first riding
officers and let a nationwide man hunt that wound up
in Tennessee following a series of carjackings, carths of breaking
and entering, a home invasion, and finally ending in Tennessee
(17:10):
following a high speed police chase where they actually shot
at the deputies with guns that were stolen from the
murder victims in Georgia. Sheriff Sills said that this high
speed chase ended in Moore County, Tennessee seventy five miles
southeast of Nashville. Just a few days later, Sheriff Sells
went personally to pick them up and bring them back
(17:31):
to Georgia, where they now face capital murder charges and
are facing the death penalty. A lot of people are
asking about DNA or the lack of DNA. Was there
ever any DNA of any type that was collected that
could not have been identified? Every piece of tangible evidence
that was there or any place that we thought there
(17:53):
would be. We submitted that to the LAMB. I won't
elaborate on what results may or may not pasulting from
their tests. There's a lot of people that are asking
about a deceased child of the Dermans that had been
murdered some years prior to this. Was that episode looked
at and do you think there's any connection? Yes, obviously
(18:17):
when we heard that they had a son who had
been murdered, we obviously lioked to that immediately. Almost the
dun was moved here, had been living here for fourteen years.
They left the Metro Atlanta area in two thousand, shortly
after their son was murdered. Their son was not a
(18:37):
drug trafficker, He was not in any cartail. He was
none of the their son unfortunately, was like so many
people that I've dealt with over the years, and this
one son who was a drug annic, and as many
people know, they start doing anything to get their drugs.
You know. This this was a typical scenario where you know,
(19:00):
he'd stolen from his parents and did death. So eventually
actually did a robbery one time up in New York
and he was in and out of rehab and things
like that. And on his birthday of the year two thousand,
he and another individual went over and west side of Atlanta,
kent over near the area they called the Bluff today,
(19:22):
which is well known drug area in the city of Atlanta,
and he had a friend went over there to buy
some drugs. I highly suspected he probably was using some
money that he gotten for his birthday. And unfortunately they
pulled up on the street to a drug dealer over there,
and that individual apparently was not settling that day that
the individual was ribbing and shot both of them in
(19:45):
their car. The nerman son died there at the scene.
The other individual lived and someone was arrested, prosecuted, tried
for murder and is presently in prison from the murder
of the Durwan boy and aggravody assault of the other person.
That person survived, of course, you know the Nermans that
didn't go to the trial. We or people told us
(20:06):
that there was getting ready to be a parole here.
Absolutely untrue. People told us that the dervants had written
letters to the prole board. Did not happen. There certainly
seems to be no nexus between his murderer and his parents.
Were We saw the guard shack at the entrance to
their subdivision at the time. It did not have gates.
(20:29):
But was it a situation inteen where if you lived
there and you were expecting a guest or a visitor,
that you would have to call the guard shack, call
security and leave their name at the front. Yes, there
wasn't a bar there as there is now, or the scanner.
If you were remember of rentals or had a work
(20:51):
per minute, in short, if you had a rental sticker
for you Winshield issue to you, you were way through.
If not, the procedure was that someone had to call
ahead to allow you admitting. Of course, unless you were
said you were going to the clubhouse for dinner or
something like that and you were way through it at
that time. Obviously we chet those records. Needs to say,
(21:12):
at least at this point in time, that did not
believe anything it was beneficial to us. To your knowledge,
were they expecting any visitors or any contractors or anybody
like that to come to their home. Not to my knowledge,
but you know, contractors went in and out of there constantly.
A contractor with a propriate documentation was way through. Those
(21:34):
people who have listened to the podcast and have subsequently
gone back and looked over other publicly available information, the
overwhelming theory seems to be that whoever did this came
and left by boat. Do you believe that to be
the case. Not necessarily I don't. They certainly could have.
I will say this Mrs Nerman's body because of where
(21:58):
it was and where we were covered it over on
the Green County side of the lake in an uninhabited
area that was not accessible by the vehicle. That, in
combination with the weights being on our body, the hydraulics
of the water movement itself, all of those factors, and
(22:18):
we consulted with Georgia Power about water flow hydraulic experts
at the University of Georgia made us comfortable knowing that
her body had not moved very far once it begin
to ascend from the bottom. Therefore, we are confident that
her body was disposed of by boat. And obviously she
(22:40):
could have been transported, and all of this could have
happened by water, but it also could have happened by
ground transportation, or it could have happened by boat. What
about the weather between the Saturday when you believe they
were murdered and the Tuesday when they were found. Was
(23:00):
there any weather activity that could have interfered with any
forensic evidence that may be present outside the home. No,
I can't remember right now. Obviously we probably have that documented,
but there was nothing evident outside. It was a For instance,
it was very clear from where blood was insider in
regards to the decapitation procedure itself, that it the garage
(23:23):
doors were shut at the time. That was very clear
from physical evidence at the scene, but the newspapers and
things like that had not been collected for a couple
of days they were driving. Through my knowledge, there have
been no extensive rain or anything from the time of
the murder until the time we discovered Mr. Dermot's body.
How do you search an entire exterior or front yard
(23:47):
and backyard of this residence. For this particular case, we
even searched beyond that. You take a hundred deputy shares
and you put them an arm to arm and you
walked through the woods. Sheriff, are you still making yourself
available to investigate any new leads that may come up
in this case? Absolutely peeled and the best example, you know,
(24:09):
we got some information doesn't look like it's going to
be anything to it last Friday, right when I was
still very much in the aftermath of this most recent
double murder here at this county in obviously, I stopped
what I was doing and responded to that and assigned
some some people to do some things based on that
information that was Friday. It doesn't look like it's going
(24:31):
to be anything to it. But I mentioned that only
to assure everyone that we're still working on this case
and are going to continue to work on it and
continue to work on it aggressively if and as any
information comes For so, if anybody has any information that
they think could be helpful, what's the best way for
(24:53):
them to get that information to you? Gota my office
at seven oh six or eight f eight seven, or
email me at shaff Seals at Puttingham County Sheriff dot
org one or the other. There's obviously tipline on our
website which is putting Them County Sheriff dot Org. And
I promise you we're gonna look into it and respond
(25:16):
to it. More than likely I will be responding to
it personally. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
(25:38):
Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're
in the market for podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings
dot com to get your first episode produced for free.
I'd personally like to say thank you to share Off
Seals for his time, and I wish you the best
of luck moving forward. I'd also like to thank you
the listeners for tuning in. We're currently working on several
(25:59):
new cases for upcoming episodes of Sworn. Each month we
will bring you a new multipart mini series exposing the
untold stories and the hard truths behind major cases, wrongful convictions,
controversial legislation, and much much more. Stay up to date
and subscribe to Sworn now on Apple Podcasts, and while
you're there, please rate and review Sworn. It helps us
(26:22):
move up in the charts and brings in new listeners.
Stay tuned right here in the coming weeks for a
sneak peak of what's coming next month on Sworn and
don't Forget. Our sister podcast, Up and Vanished, is approaching
its season one finale with only three main episodes left.
Subscribe and tune in too Up and Vanished every Monday.
(26:42):
Thanks for listening. Guys, See you soon, s I see't
(27:03):
I see heep. Blood in the Water, Jarmy Johnny see
Blood in the Water.
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