September 29, 2017 • 39 mins
This episode of Closing Statements takes a final look at the South Georgia triple murder of the Wideman family. Mixed by: ResonateRecordings.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You place your left hand on the Bible and raise
your right hand and repeat after me. I you solemnly
swear who the jury buying it defended not to Your
process continued this weekend in Ferguson and around the country,
resisting your sense. If it doesn't fit, you must to quit. Judge,
you are the last line of reason in this case.
(00:31):
Every one of us took out all the offs, and
we're sworn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. On this
episode of Closing Statements, Phil talks to one of Debora
Wideman's family members who reached out to him after the
first three episodes were released. But first we'll hear Jason
(00:54):
Walker's perspective to recap, Jason Walker was the alleged father
of Melissa's baby, someone who seemed to have a potential
motive at the time. He agreed to talk to us
about his experience, but he didn't want his voice to
be used. I'll be reading the questions that we asked
Jason and Phil with voices responses. What was your life
like in Turner County in two thousand two, where did
(01:17):
you live. What was your job? I lived in the
northern part of the county, working on a decent sized
farm in South Crisp County. I enjoyed the work and
who I worked for, no complaints. What was your relationship
with Melissa Like? Someone mentioned to us that you may
have been married at the time you were seeing Melissa.
Is that right? Or were you exclusively with Melissa at
(01:37):
the time. I was not married at the time of
the incident. It's no secret that our relationships started when
I was married. We continued after I divorced. I'll not
dispute that there were ups and downs. It's no secret
you probably know that. What was your relationship with t
J and Deborah Like? Our parents treated me very well,
(01:58):
even at times when maybe they shouldn't have. They welcomed
me in their home and never made me feel like
they didn't want me there. We even went on an
out of town trip or two. What was your alibi
that night? We heard from a credible source that your
car hood was cold that morning and that you couldn't
have left your house in that car. Could you tell
us the same alibi you told the police. If my
(02:18):
old age memory serves me right, We had gone to
Cordial Walmart for some things, and then stopped to see
a couple of guys at the GSP post when it
was still on Midway Road. Then when I went home,
I was home until I was notified of the fire.
When I was notified, I rode with someone to the house.
Did you feel like you're the only person of interest
in that case or that there was too much focus
(02:40):
on you? How did the investigation impact your personal life
with internal County? What about your professional life? I don't
think I was the only suspect, of course, in the situation.
I was the first one that came to their minds.
The second part of that question I can't really answer
because I don't know how much anyone else was question
third part, you know things like this, Well, I've easily
(03:00):
make people wonder. I've maintained my innocence the whole time
and still do very very few ever treated me different.
What do you think could have been done differently in
the investigation process in order to find the person or
people that did this and, as you said, bring relief
to those of you who were wrongly accused. I can't
really answer this because I only know what they did
(03:21):
when they questioned me. I allowed a search of my
home and my car without them having a warrant. I
had no reason to interfere or make it hard on them.
I know Slash News several of the guys that were
on the case at the time. They were doing their job,
and we remain good friends today. Again, though, I can
only answer about how I was questioned, not anyone else.
(03:42):
Who else do you think was wrongly accused along with you?
I can only speak for me. I know I was
wrongly accused, and I really don't know who was questioned
or in what manner. Do you think there are still
people in Turner County that think you had something to
do with the incident until it's solved. I'm sure there are,
but I don't think I'm the only one people suspect.
But can't speak for anyone else either. I guess the
(04:04):
media could only report on what they were told by
law enforcement. I don't think they tried to push an opinion,
only what they were given. How do you think the
media handled the case? I guess the media could only
report on what they were told by law enforcement. I
don't think they tried to push an opinion, only told
what they were given. Finally, Jason says, I hope that
(04:26):
helps you. I hope what you're doing finds the missing
piece or that one person that knows what happened. We
both know that someone knows what happened, and it's long
overdue that the truth be told. Thanks for reaching out
to me, and I hope what I've told you helped.
Good luck with getting others to reply back to you.
(04:59):
David Er, one of Deborah's younger brothers, reached out to
Phil after the first three episodes aired. He wanted to
talk to us. He said he had something to share,
so Phil called him back. David, can you please tell
us what your name is and how you're connected to
this case. I am David Wheeler. I am the younger
brother of Deborah Wideman. Devor and Tom and Joe and
(05:23):
Melissa were part of my family. Where do you live?
I live in Sycamore, Georgia, about a mile or two
from the Kiff County line and about five miles from
from Ashman, Georgian, about twelve miles from Rebecca, where they lived.
I wanted to take a few minutes to talk about
your sister and her family, the people that lost their lives,
What can you tell us about them? They were very friendly,
(05:47):
very social. Everybody in the community knew them. Everybody in
the county. Between Devera and Tom and Joe, they were
liked by every one. I don't know anybody that didn't
like them. Tomma Joe was a very friend, happy going,
easy going person. Devil was also they loved people. They
loved to be around people, and they love to have
(06:07):
a good time. What about your niece, Can you tell
us something about her? I think she was also one
that was very friendlish, She enjoyed her friends. She was
expecting with her first child. She was about a month
or six weeks away from from the living her child.
She was very friendly, had lots of friends in the community.
Even don't know if anyone that disliked her. She was
(06:31):
very happy, very joyful. Do we know who the father
of her unborn child was? It was suspected that it
was a Walker, Jason Walker. To my knowledge that too
the dad was. Is that what she believed as well? Yes, yes,
I know this may be difficult, but if you can,
can you kind of walk us through how you found
(06:53):
out about the fire and ultimately the murders. It was
a Thursday afternoon. That Thursday afternoon, I actually had a
phone call from my sister Debor. I was outside and
one of the my daughter I believe, brought me the
house phone. She had called to ask if we would
be coming to Easter. I believe Easter was the not
(07:14):
that weekend, but the following weekend, and they wanted to
have a get together at at their house, and they
were staying at Toma Joe's mother's home. And so around
six o'clock she get called and we talked and had
a great conversation, talked about twenty minutes, and we told
her Or I told her that we would become for Easter.
And then about tween two and three o'clock that morning,
(07:37):
Friday morning, I got a phone call from elderly friend
that lived in Rebecca, and she called the house and
said that Devon Toma Joe's the house was on fire.
It was Tom Joe's mother's house. Said the house was
on fire, but they could not find Devor and Toma
joinning where nobody could reach them. They tried calling and
and nobody could reach them or nobody knew where they was,
(08:00):
and she hung up. I called my sister and told
her that the house was on fire and that nobody
could get ahold of Damner coming Joe. And the first
thing to come in my mind was that maybe Melissa
had went into labor, maybe they had to take her
to the hospital, And so I told her she would
call the hospital and call our brother who lived in
Irbville at the time. Then I was going to call
(08:22):
my father in law. We had three small children that
were nine, eleven, and fifteen at that time, and so
we called him and asked him if he could come
over to the house because we was going to drive
to Rebecca and see if we could find out what
was going on, or see if we could find Devin,
Tom and Joe. My sister called back and said that
she had called the closest hospitals, the two or three
(08:43):
hospitals around, and they did not have a Melissa there,
did not have her. They're delivering or no when was
there by that name. So we drove to the house.
Their houses up on isolated drive on a country highway.
But when we got there there was a deputy sheriff
at the end of the driveway. What time did you
(09:04):
get to the side of the fire, I would say
around four thirty. It's far enough off the roads. I
couldn't tell. Knew there were a lot of fire trucks
up there and appear to boost a lot of the
police cars. But the devity's sheriff would not allow us
to go up into the drive. He would not allow
us to go up to the house. I asked him,
I told him who I was, told him it was
(09:24):
my sister's house and we were trying to find out
where they were. But he would not allow us to
go up into the drive. So when we left there,
we went to Charles Henry's house, that was Toma Joe's brother,
and we went to Charles Henry's house. He was there.
We he met us at the door, and we went
in and I was talking to him and just asking
him to even know anything, And at that time he
(09:44):
told us he didn't know anything. He didn't know where
they were, he didn't know anything about He did tell
us that he had been to the house. So wait
a minute, they let him in the house or to
the scene, but they wouldn't let you apparently, So he
told us that he had been there and then he
had left, but they would not allow us to go
up into the house. Did he say if he went
(10:05):
there with anyone else? He did not. He didn't say
if he was by himself or him one took him,
or if anybody went with him. He didn't. He did
not imply that anyone had went with him at that time.
He did tell us that his son was there at
the house where we were now at his house, he
was in the bedroom of sleep, but he didn't tell
us whether he didn't say he was at the house
(10:26):
with him. What time of day was it that you
were at Charles's house? We were probably back at charles
is between four thirty and five. How long did you
stay there? We stayed there till after lunch the following day,
all right, at lunch, that was a Friday. We stayed
there toil long was lunch. We were there about twenty
minutes maybe, and my brother Larry Weather, he and his
(10:48):
wife they showed up at Charles's Charles Henrys, and then
maybe another thirty minutes, and my sister showed up there.
And by that time it's probably around five thirty quarter
to six in the morning. And by that time there
were people in the community who had heard about the
house fire that were beginning to show up at the house.
So by six o'clock the house was pretty well full
(11:11):
of people in the community. You mentioned that Charles Son
was sleeping. Did you ever see him come out? I
did not see him until probably ten o'clock the next morning.
Had you been there NonStop that whole time? I had
been in the house from around four thirty and five.
We've been there from four thirty until tween eleven and twelve.
(11:31):
We left and came back to our house between eleven
and twelve p m. Am. Well eleven made him Friday morning.
We were there from five am, probably four thirty am
till eleven or twelve a m. And the only person
you were talking with was Charles correct. He was only
one that came out and talked to me and my brother.
(11:53):
And then probably around eight o'clock the corner Edgar Perry
came over to the house and told us that the
bodies were in the house and that there was foul play.
He did not tell us what had happened, but he
said there was foul play and this was a criminal
investigation at this time. What was your reaction and what
(12:14):
was everyone else's reaction? Well, everyone was shocked and surprised,
you know, you couldn't believe that something like this had
happened to them, just going through your mind, how could
this have happened? Who could have done this? There was
nobody that disliked them. The house is far enough off
the road. Within a day or two, there was all
kinds of theories and all kind of Everybody had their
(12:34):
different opinions and ideas about who did it or what happened.
So who was present when the coroner came to deliver
that news to you, Charles Henry, myself and my wife,
and Charles Henry's I don't believe the son was there
at that time where out when he talked to us,
But there was my sister and my brother and his wife,
and then there was a large number of people from
(12:56):
the community. There was probably twenty or thirty people from
the community were there also, and he he just kind
of took us to the side in the room. But
there were some other people standing around. I couldn't call
their names. Where there were some other people standing around
when he he told us that there was foul play.
Was there anything that you felt was unusual about the
(13:16):
time that you spent at Charles's house that morning? I
don't know it was just kind of quiet. I don't
really know. I'd have to think on that question for
a moment. Well, let me ask you another question. Did
you ever wonder why Charles was allowed to go to
the side of the fire but you weren't. Well, I
(13:37):
did question, Dad. I didn't want to know why we
couldn't go up there since it was our our sister,
and you know, I'm wondering why they wouldn't allow us
to go up there and find out. I know it
was his, his property or his family's property, but I
did question, you know, one couldn't we go up there,
or at least way up there until they found out something.
Why was your sister and her family staying at that
(14:00):
house at that time? They often did that. Toma Joe's
mother and Miss Joe. She lived in Frontadina and I
think I don't know, but I'm pretty sure she had
some valuable items in the house. I know she probably
had her husband or Toma Joe's daddy, Mr. Widman, I
believe at one time. I know one time he had
a lot of guns, a lot of collectible guns, and
(14:23):
she wanted them to stay there for to secure her home.
She had some valuable items there and to help up
keep the home and to show that, you know, somebody
was in and out of the house. So they quite
frequently would go up there and stay. They might stay
up there the weekend, or stay up there three or
four days out a week, or sometimes two or three
weeks out of time, and then go back to their
house in Rebecca, a couple of miles away. But they
(14:45):
stayed because for security reasons for her home. So Miss Joe,
was she a full time resident at Fernandina Beach or
did she split her time and how did that work?
She spent the majority of her time in front of
Dama Beach. I believe for reasons how well she stayed
down there because of the sea air or whatever, or
(15:05):
she had asthma or I don't you know. I don't
know exactly, but it was some health reasons was one
of the reasons she stayed down in front of Dena.
Do you know where she was the night of the fire.
I had thought that she was at her home in
front of Dena. Now later it come out that she
may have been in the hospital, But as she was,
I thought it would have been down there from Dana somewhere.
(15:26):
Then I did see a news report that said it
actually quoted Charles Wideman as saying that she was in
the hospital the night of the fire. That's possible. I
haven't heard anything to verify that, but that's possible. I
know she was very sickly. I know she she passed
away within the week or ten days of Tom and
Joe and Devorah Melissa's death. She passed away, So she
(15:49):
died within a week or ten days of your sister
and her family's murder. That's correct, And she believed that
they did not tell her because of her help. They
didn't tell her until after the funeral latter was all over. Wait,
they didn't tell miss Joe that her family had been murdered.
(16:10):
I think that's correct. I think that's what I had heard,
that they did not tell her until it was after
the funeral. If she was told then, but I believe
it was after the funeral when she was told. Now
(16:35):
I've come to learn that later there was some litigation
between the estate of your sister and the estate of
miss Joe. Is that correct. I'm not as familiar with that.
My brother's more familiar with that part of it. I
would hesitate to answer on that because I'm I don't
(16:55):
know enough to give a correct answer. Okay, can you
tell us about Ms Joe's financial circumstances. Was she well offered?
Was she a person of modest means? I don't know
her exact figure, but she would I wouldn't probably consider
well if she was a landowner, and she probably had
stalking things. But I know she had two or three
(17:15):
farms in the county, in the house in front of
Dana or some property in front of DNA, so I
would you know, I would consider that more than honest.
I don't know an exact figure, but I would think
it's more than modest. When was the last time your
brother in law saw his mother. I believe him and
Charles Henry had went down and visited her within a
(17:36):
month before the murders. I don't know an exact date,
but him and Charles Henry had been down there to
see her. You know, I can't, like I said, I
can't say an exact date, but within weeks or a
month or less from the murders happening. I think he
told me earlier today when we talked, that some people
went to visit her. It just within a day or
two of the murders. Who was that. I believe Charles
(17:58):
Henry's wife and his daughter in law they were there
the day of the murder, and maybe he had went
the day before. I don't know when they left to
go down there, but they were not at the house.
And when you know, we did ask where it was Diane,
his wife, and he said they were down in Fernandina
on the night of the murders. Do you know if
anyone was visiting Ms. Joe? To my knowledge, Diane and
(18:22):
his son's wife were visiting her or had left to
go down there. I don't know when they left, but
he said they were going to Fernandina, So I don't
know when they left to go, but they were going
to Frontandana to see Ms. Joe. So on the night
of the murders, Charles Widenman and his son were in Rebecca,
but the rest of the family was in Fernandina. Is
(18:42):
that correct? Correct? That's what I was told. That's what
Charles Henry had said, that they were gone down there.
He didn't say when they left, but the night in
the murders, he and his son were the only ones
in town or at home. How about your sister and
her family had anyone else gone to visit Ms Joe.
I couldn't say. I know Tom and Joe and Deva
would frequently go down and visit with her and check
(19:04):
on her. They would check on her when she would
come home. But now I can't say for certain who
else went down there to see her, or how often?
Can you tell me the story that we talked about
earlier today about somebody going and seeing her just before
the murders and coming back with some jewelry. I was
told I thought that Tom and Joe had and when
Charles went down there, that she had given Tom and
(19:25):
Joe's some jewelry or something. I don't know how much
or one kind would she had given him some and
had brought it back home. Do you want to talk
about the relationship now between your side of the family
and the Wideman's. Is that something you're comfortable talking about?
Not really? You know, I see them and I speak
with them, and they speak when me. We was at
(19:47):
a I was at a meeting just recently, and and
they were president at the meeting. You know, we we
speak to one another and we've occasionally run into one
another in town. Does anybody ever talk to you about
the murders. People come up from time to time and
they'll ask me or they'll talk to me and they'll
give me their opinion, they'll give me their suspicions. I
(20:08):
have very seldom bring it up from very seldom talk
about it. Our our daughter initiated the conversation. But it
doesn't offend me or bother me. When someone comes up
and they want to talk or they want to ask her,
you know, they want to express their concern. Most time,
when the sheriff comes up and publicizes their murders again
or speaks on the in the newspaper, or speaks on
the local television station in al Any, you know, to
(20:30):
generate some conversations and people come up and they'll talk
with their ask her that you know, they're sorry about
what happened and all it did affect my family. I
don't bring it up and talk about it much because
I had a nine year old son and eleven year
old daughter and a fifteen year old daughter, and we
didn't talk about it a whole lot because of my
nine year old and eleven year old. For over a year.
We had just built a house and we had just
(20:51):
moved in it. We've been here about a year and
for about a year a year and a half, my
two youngest children slept on the floor by the bed
between in the wall and they slept there for a
year and a half as they were afraid, and even
now talking to you and bring it up, it kind
of my wife gets a little nervous, a little scared
when it's brought back up. I didn't bring it up
(21:12):
and didn't talk about it and much around them. Because
of that, my son probably took four or five years
before he would go outside by himself. If we was inside,
he had to be inside. If we were outside, he
had to be outside. Now they were scared, as as
young as they were, they were scared something might happen
to us or you know, they thought, could this happen
to one of us because somebody come to our house
(21:34):
and due to us what happened to my sister. So
when they were president around, we tried not to talk
about it very much, as it took a while for
them to be able to go oude on their own.
If the door opening my son heard it, he would
run outside to see where we was going to where
I was going. It would really bother him. If I
went to town and my wife Vicky, she stayed at home.
(21:56):
He would be a nervous wreck until we would all
be together. He wanted everybody together. He didn't like us
to be separated, so it took its toll on our family.
That's something like this could happen in a small community
like this. Were you ever interviewed by law enforcement? Yes?
And no. The g b I the next day. This
happened probably Friday afternoon, after lunch, two or three or
(22:18):
four o'clock in the afternoon, if you could call it that.
The g b I. He did come by. He asked
me to step outside. I stepped out side. We went
and set in his car. He maybe talked to me
for ten minutes. You know, at the time, you don't
think about what he's doing, but I guess he was
asking some questions to see make sure that I had
an alibi navy. He asked me where was I had
(22:38):
or what was I doing? And I told him that
I had talked to Delver at six o'clock that afternoon,
and then I told him about the phone call in
the middle of the night, and that my wife and
I we went to Rebecca and then we was at
Charles Henry's house, and that was all the questions he
asked me. He never talked to my wife, he never
talked to my kids. He never talked to anybody else
to verify my story. So the g B I never
(23:01):
verified your alibi. They never talked to any other other
my my wife, or my children. They never talked to
them too, you know, never talked to her to say
was this what happened? He never come back and talked
to me. I haven't heard from him since that day.
He talked to me ten minutes in his car, and
I told him about her calling me at since clock.
(23:21):
I told him about us leaving in the middle of
the night and going over there, my wife and I,
and I asked him when I finished telling that, I
asked him did he think they could solve the caation?
He said, yes, every case is this case is solvable.
And so I was left with a feeling that, Okay,
they got enough information somewhere that they will be able
to solve this in a short time or a reasonable time.
(23:43):
And after that day, the GBA and nobody's ever contacted me.
I think they may have. I know my sister and
my brother have called them, but they've never called me
or told me, you know, we're still working on this,
or we've got some leads, or is there anything else
you can tell me. You've asked me more question and
they've asked me. Did they record the conversation that took
(24:04):
place in the car? Not to my knowledge. If he did,
he didn't tell me, but not to my knowledge. He
took him maybe a few notes, but he to my knowledge,
and recording a home. Do you know if he talked
to anyone on the white Man side of the family,
I don't know. He didn't tell me, he didn't ask
for he didn't elaborate. I might have been in a
guardian minute with him. And I've told you or you've
(24:25):
asked more than he asked me. Did anybody ever tell
you how they were murdered? Not directly that Friday night?
Because it was large families. Tommy Joe's family was large,
and they were on Rebecca, and then we lived on
this into the county. My brother lived in another county,
my sister lived in town. So at that time, for
you know, no reason other than the fact that we
(24:47):
both had large families and lots of friends, and also
we agreed that that some of the people can meet
it at my house and some of the people can
meet at Charles Henry's house. So we met here and
that night, Friday night, the distric attorney our district attorneys
in another county. He's from Tifton, and the disc attorney
came over to the house and we went upstairs, me
(25:09):
my sister and my brother, and I believe the sheriff
was here, and we went up into a room and
he told us that, you know, they had been murdered.
He told us they had been shot, but he didn't
give us any other details more than that it was
a murder case, that they felt like that some marson
was involved in it, and that they were shot. He
didn't tell us where, He didn't tell us with what
or nothing like that. You know, I didn't have a
(25:31):
problem with that. But that's all the information on the
other information I've gotten is, you know, a little bit
here and a little bit there, you hear from someone
people taught that were involved in it. Has anyone in
law enforcement ever told you what kind of gun was used? No,
has anyone in law enforcement ever told you where your
(25:51):
sister was shot? Has anyone in law enforcement ever told
anybody you know, either of those things I could. And
so people have commented that, you know, and I don't
know if it's their opinion, are if they have heard
it from some law enforcement, people have commented where they
might have been shock. I know. Finally, I wasn't allowed
(26:13):
to go up the night of the murder and when
the fire they were still putting out the fire. But
three or four days later, within a week, we were
allowed to go up to the house. They said that
they had done all the investigating they needed to do,
and so we were allowed to go up to the
house and you can tell where they had sifted through
the ash and everything. And I questioned one of the
(26:36):
law enforcement about, you know, why was this area sifted
through more than other areas. Was that where the bodies
might have been? And he said, well, that was left
there for y'all's benefit. I'm sorry said that again. When
we went into the house, the house was burnt down
and there was nothing but rubbling ash and you could
walk through what was left. This was about a week
after the murder. They did say the wires were cut.
(26:58):
I did either. All enforcement are some of the firemen,
the gay there said that the telephone wires had been
cut to the house. They do know that. I did
hear that from some from an official line. I couldn't
say which one. But we were allowed to go up
to the house. And so my brother and my sister
and some others we went to the house. And I
did question why did they allow us to go up
(27:20):
there so soon? Or I thought was soon after the murder,
because I told maybe they would want more time for
themselves to check and see if I can find any clues.
But we were allowed to go out there, and you
could tell some areas were it looked like maybe they
had sifted through the rubble and the ashes more. And
so I asked a law official, was that were they
(27:41):
were when they were shot? And he said that. He
didn't come out and say yes. He said, well, that
was left there for y'all's benefit. What did you interpret
that to me? I thought that meant that's where they
were they were laying. I don't know wine they would
want us to see where they were laying, but I
thought that's that was the way of saying yes without
telling me yes. So if that's the case, can you
(28:04):
describe for us where the individuals were laying. I think
one was probably in a living room, one was in
the hall, and one was in the doorway of a bedroom.
None of this was at the front door. It was
all in the interior of the house. Correct. I had
been in the house before I had won every time
of Joe was staying there. I had been a bout
(28:25):
the house of time or two and been inside the house.
So one area appeared to be what was the dinner
living room. One area was in what was the hall
the house, and you know he had a hall. You
go down to the three bedrooms. One was area where
the ashes were sent. It looked like it was in
the hall, and one appeared to be in the doorway.
(28:48):
So basically, the law enforcement officers on the scene, without
telling you directly, they were letting you know that the
bodies were located inside the house. Well, they weren't there
when we went. There were no loss or was there
at the house when we went. We were just told
we could go and visit the side if we wanted to.
But a law enforcement official did tell you that those Okay,
(29:08):
that was a later time. So so basically law enforcement
told you that the shootings took place inside the residents.
They didn't tell me that. They led me to believe
that by what telling me that we when I asked
a question, was that where the bodies were? Then you
(29:29):
hate to assume, but that's once you assumed, they were
allowing you to know. That's what you took away from
this is that it happened inside, but the bodies were
found inside. Law enforcement told you that the telephone wire
was cut to the residents. If it's a law enforcement
or one of the firefighters, but one of the officials
that was there when they were putting out the fire,
(29:49):
whether it was a fireman or whether it was a
volunteer fireman or one of the losses. I don't remember
which one, but we were told that the phone arts
hadn't been cut. I couldn't say who, but I was
also told I asked, I did ask the question. I
don't remember what law losser or whatever. But the door
was not locked, and so I know Tim would not
(30:10):
have opened the door to have told a stranger in
the middle of the night. I asked one of the fireman,
I did ask the question, was the doors locked? And
he said no. So we've got a cut telephone line
at an unlocked door and bodies located inside. The residents
that's the information that I've gathered from different ones that
(30:33):
were the responders that were there at the fire, from
different responders over time. I didn't get all those answers
from the same person, but over time, different ones that
I had talked to that were there was a volunteer
fireman or whether it was a law officer. Those are
some things that that would told you mentioned that your
(30:55):
sister and some others from time to time have contacted
the gb I about this, K. Do you know if
the GBI has told them anything? I do not they
You know, we would talk something, we don't. You know,
every time I hear something, I don't call them because
a lot of us hearsay and any time you talk
(31:15):
with somebody, some of it's something they've heard from two
or three other sources. So I don't call them every
time I hear something. They don't call me every time
that they hear something. But you know, we have we
do communicate, But I don't know. I couldn't tell you
what all the g b I has told them. Do
you have that they have not contacted me and told
me anything. Do you have the impression that anybody is
(31:37):
really still working on this case or is it your
belief that it's probably gathering dust on the files, gathering
dust somewhere. Sometimes I feel like he's gathering dust because
I haven't heard anything in the g B I, So
I don't know. I don't know if he's any pressure
put on them. They weren't politically involved or sometimes I've
feld that way, and I don't blame we've had. You know,
(32:00):
now we're on our third sheriff that's been elected. We
had a sheriff that was in from for a short
time between elections. We're on our fore sheriff. And by now,
you know, it grows cold. And I know the lead
investigator that was working with the sheriff's department when the
murder happened, he no longer works with the sheriff's department.
(32:21):
So I don't know what. You don't know what theories
he had. You don't know what suspicions he had. You
don't know what evidence he had somebody else, you know,
they come in. I don't know how much of that
he passed along. I don't know what theories he might
have had that he could have been working on. So
you know, you have to question, where is it getting cold?
The President sheriff I have talked to and he has
(32:43):
talked to me, and he has communicated with me. He
told me one time not long ago that he had
communicated with the g b I and was wanting them
to get maybe a different set of eyes looking at
the evidence to see, you know, someone else maybe could
pick up or see something that the original investing hers
might not see. Is there anything else that you think
(33:03):
is important that we haven't talked about, that I've missed,
that you think might be important. I just want someone to,
you know, just keep asking questions and keep it current,
because sooner or later, you know, maybe somebody will say something,
somebody will remember something. People have a tendency either if
someone that didn't have a conscious at all, they either
going to brag about it, or someone has a conscious
(33:25):
they're gonna feel guilty and want to tell someone maybe
to get forgiveness. So one or the two. Either they're
gonna brag about doing it and not getting caught, or
either they're going to want someone to forgive them because
their consciousness bothering them. But either way, they're going to
talk to somebody somewhere sometime, And so we have to
keep it going and keep it current so that that
(33:45):
person that hears that vital information will come forward with it. Well,
what I can tell you is that we've recently come
across some information that somebody claims to know quite a
bit about the specific facts of this case, and we've
passed that onto the g b I. What they do
(34:06):
with it, I don't know, But what I can tell
you is that we've come across some information that has
the potential to solve this case, and we passed it
onto the g b I very recently. Well, I am
very grateful, and I'm very thankful for what you're doing.
I'm thankful that you took interest in it and that
you're bringing it back to light, because that keeps people talking,
(34:26):
and it keeps it fresh on other people's mind. And
each time we did a let my sheriff, they would
come and they would ask for my vote, and I
would ask them to treat the case as though it
was one of their relatives, meaning that I wouldn't want
them to just put it in a box and let
it collect dust, but to keep digging at it until
they found somebody. After speaking with David Wheeler, I thought
(34:49):
more about what I had heard, and I reached back
out to clarify just a couple of details. I wanted
to know more about the scene at Charles Henry's house
the morning of the fire, David wrote to me. When
we arrived at Charles Henry and Diane's home, Charles Henry
told us Chip was there. So just to keep things
straight here, Chip Wideman is Charles Henry's adult son who
(35:12):
was married at the time and did not live at
his parents house. David goes on to say he was
told Chip had taken a bath and gone to bed.
That conversation took place at approximately four to four thirty
a m. We did not see Chip until close to
lunch on Friday. To my knowledge, Charles Henry voluntarily told
us about Chip. We never asked where he was. David
(35:36):
also clarified that, according to what he was told at
the time of the fire, Diane Wideman was in Florida
along with her son, Chip's wife, visiting Miss Joe, and
that they had been there since the day before the fire,
which would have been Thursday. We've actually been looking at
the Wideman murders for quite some time now, you see.
(35:56):
When Payne Lindsay, host of our Sister podcast up in
was in South Georgia investigating the disappearance of Irwin County
history teacher and beauty queen Tera Grinstead. Someone told paying
some very compelling information about the Wideman murders in nearby Rebecca, Georgia. Later, however,
when we tried to follow up with this person, he
(36:17):
didn't have anything to say except for calling us swine. Nevertheless,
we were able to independently corroborate much of what the
caller had initially said the first time. We were able
to corroborate that his ex son in law did in
fact Diana car crash, and we were able to corroborate
that a close relative of the Wideman murder victims was
(36:40):
a pallbearer at the funeral following that car crash. So
why the change of heart on behalf of this caller.
That's anyone's guess at this point. But this person's purported
knowledge of the case could well be the key to
finally solving the Wideman murder case. After fifteen long years,
(37:01):
just by talking to the community, asking questions and looking
at publicly available information, we've learned quite a bit about
this unsolved triple murder. I wonder what would be possible
if the g b I, or even someone like John
Dawes were to really put their shoulder into this, what
else might they learn if they redoubled their efforts with
(37:22):
the full investigative capabilities of the State of Georgia. Now
it's important to understand we're not accusing anyone of anything,
but in addition to the phone call that we turned
over to the g b I, which frankly, in my opinion,
has the potential to solve this case entirely, we did
come across something else that we found interesting and at
(37:43):
a minimum quite odd. Remember, Tommy, Joe and Deborah Wideman
had a nephew, Charles Wideman the third, also known as
Chip Wideman. According to David Wheeler, Chip and his father Charles,
were the only ones at Charles Wideman's home on the
morning of the murders. He also mentioned that Chip wasn't
really anywhere to be seen in the immediate aftermath of
(38:05):
the fire. I don't know what this means, and we're
not accusing anyone of anything, but one thing on chips
Facebook page at the time of this recording really caught
our attention. It's what is listed as his favorite quote.
It says three can keep a secret if two are dead.
(38:32):
We will continue to follow this case in the future
and plan to come out with more episodes in a
few months, so please, if you have any information at
all about this case, contact the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
You can also contact us directly at Sworn tips at
gmail dot com. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason Lindsay and Meredith
(38:56):
Steadman and myself Philip Holloway. Sound designed by Pine Lindsay,
Executive producers Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Mixed and mastered
by Resonate Recordings. Also, if you haven't yet, please check
out our sister podcast, Up and Vanished that follows the
investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High School teacher and
beauty queen Tara Grinstead ven Vanished is available now on
(39:19):
Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. This is Philip Holloway and
I'll see you next time on Sword
You place your left hand on the Bible and raise
your right hand and repeat after me. I you solemnly
swear who the jury buying it defended not to Your
process continued this weekend in Ferguson and around the country,
resisting your sense. If it doesn't fit, you must to quit. Judge,
you are the last line of reason in this case.
(00:31):
Every one of us took out all the offs, and
we're sworn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. On this
episode of Closing Statements, Phil talks to one of Debora
Wideman's family members who reached out to him after the
first three episodes were released. But first we'll hear Jason
(00:54):
Walker's perspective to recap, Jason Walker was the alleged father
of Melissa's baby, someone who seemed to have a potential
motive at the time. He agreed to talk to us
about his experience, but he didn't want his voice to
be used. I'll be reading the questions that we asked
Jason and Phil with voices responses. What was your life
like in Turner County in two thousand two, where did
(01:17):
you live. What was your job? I lived in the
northern part of the county, working on a decent sized
farm in South Crisp County. I enjoyed the work and
who I worked for, no complaints. What was your relationship
with Melissa Like? Someone mentioned to us that you may
have been married at the time you were seeing Melissa.
Is that right? Or were you exclusively with Melissa at
(01:37):
the time. I was not married at the time of
the incident. It's no secret that our relationships started when
I was married. We continued after I divorced. I'll not
dispute that there were ups and downs. It's no secret
you probably know that. What was your relationship with t
J and Deborah Like? Our parents treated me very well,
(01:58):
even at times when maybe they shouldn't have. They welcomed
me in their home and never made me feel like
they didn't want me there. We even went on an
out of town trip or two. What was your alibi
that night? We heard from a credible source that your
car hood was cold that morning and that you couldn't
have left your house in that car. Could you tell
us the same alibi you told the police. If my
(02:18):
old age memory serves me right, We had gone to
Cordial Walmart for some things, and then stopped to see
a couple of guys at the GSP post when it
was still on Midway Road. Then when I went home,
I was home until I was notified of the fire.
When I was notified, I rode with someone to the house.
Did you feel like you're the only person of interest
in that case or that there was too much focus
(02:40):
on you? How did the investigation impact your personal life
with internal County? What about your professional life? I don't
think I was the only suspect, of course, in the situation.
I was the first one that came to their minds.
The second part of that question I can't really answer
because I don't know how much anyone else was question
third part, you know things like this, Well, I've easily
(03:00):
make people wonder. I've maintained my innocence the whole time
and still do very very few ever treated me different.
What do you think could have been done differently in
the investigation process in order to find the person or
people that did this and, as you said, bring relief
to those of you who were wrongly accused. I can't
really answer this because I only know what they did
(03:21):
when they questioned me. I allowed a search of my
home and my car without them having a warrant. I
had no reason to interfere or make it hard on them.
I know Slash News several of the guys that were
on the case at the time. They were doing their job,
and we remain good friends today. Again, though, I can
only answer about how I was questioned, not anyone else.
(03:42):
Who else do you think was wrongly accused along with you?
I can only speak for me. I know I was
wrongly accused, and I really don't know who was questioned
or in what manner. Do you think there are still
people in Turner County that think you had something to
do with the incident until it's solved. I'm sure there are,
but I don't think I'm the only one people suspect.
But can't speak for anyone else either. I guess the
(04:04):
media could only report on what they were told by
law enforcement. I don't think they tried to push an opinion,
only what they were given. How do you think the
media handled the case? I guess the media could only
report on what they were told by law enforcement. I
don't think they tried to push an opinion, only told
what they were given. Finally, Jason says, I hope that
(04:26):
helps you. I hope what you're doing finds the missing
piece or that one person that knows what happened. We
both know that someone knows what happened, and it's long
overdue that the truth be told. Thanks for reaching out
to me, and I hope what I've told you helped.
Good luck with getting others to reply back to you.
(04:59):
David Er, one of Deborah's younger brothers, reached out to
Phil after the first three episodes aired. He wanted to
talk to us. He said he had something to share,
so Phil called him back. David, can you please tell
us what your name is and how you're connected to
this case. I am David Wheeler. I am the younger
brother of Deborah Wideman. Devor and Tom and Joe and
(05:23):
Melissa were part of my family. Where do you live?
I live in Sycamore, Georgia, about a mile or two
from the Kiff County line and about five miles from
from Ashman, Georgian, about twelve miles from Rebecca, where they lived.
I wanted to take a few minutes to talk about
your sister and her family, the people that lost their lives,
What can you tell us about them? They were very friendly,
(05:47):
very social. Everybody in the community knew them. Everybody in
the county. Between Devera and Tom and Joe, they were
liked by every one. I don't know anybody that didn't
like them. Tomma Joe was a very friend, happy going,
easy going person. Devil was also they loved people. They
loved to be around people, and they love to have
(06:07):
a good time. What about your niece, Can you tell
us something about her? I think she was also one
that was very friendlish, She enjoyed her friends. She was
expecting with her first child. She was about a month
or six weeks away from from the living her child.
She was very friendly, had lots of friends in the community.
Even don't know if anyone that disliked her. She was
(06:31):
very happy, very joyful. Do we know who the father
of her unborn child was? It was suspected that it
was a Walker, Jason Walker. To my knowledge that too
the dad was. Is that what she believed as well? Yes, yes,
I know this may be difficult, but if you can,
can you kind of walk us through how you found
(06:53):
out about the fire and ultimately the murders. It was
a Thursday afternoon. That Thursday afternoon, I actually had a
phone call from my sister Debor. I was outside and
one of the my daughter I believe, brought me the
house phone. She had called to ask if we would
be coming to Easter. I believe Easter was the not
(07:14):
that weekend, but the following weekend, and they wanted to
have a get together at at their house, and they
were staying at Toma Joe's mother's home. And so around
six o'clock she get called and we talked and had
a great conversation, talked about twenty minutes, and we told
her Or I told her that we would become for Easter.
And then about tween two and three o'clock that morning,
(07:37):
Friday morning, I got a phone call from elderly friend
that lived in Rebecca, and she called the house and
said that Devon Toma Joe's the house was on fire.
It was Tom Joe's mother's house. Said the house was
on fire, but they could not find Devor and Toma
joinning where nobody could reach them. They tried calling and
and nobody could reach them or nobody knew where they was,
(08:00):
and she hung up. I called my sister and told
her that the house was on fire and that nobody
could get ahold of Damner coming Joe. And the first
thing to come in my mind was that maybe Melissa
had went into labor, maybe they had to take her
to the hospital, And so I told her she would
call the hospital and call our brother who lived in
Irbville at the time. Then I was going to call
(08:22):
my father in law. We had three small children that
were nine, eleven, and fifteen at that time, and so
we called him and asked him if he could come
over to the house because we was going to drive
to Rebecca and see if we could find out what
was going on, or see if we could find Devin,
Tom and Joe. My sister called back and said that
she had called the closest hospitals, the two or three
(08:43):
hospitals around, and they did not have a Melissa there,
did not have her. They're delivering or no when was
there by that name. So we drove to the house.
Their houses up on isolated drive on a country highway.
But when we got there there was a deputy sheriff
at the end of the driveway. What time did you
(09:04):
get to the side of the fire, I would say
around four thirty. It's far enough off the roads. I
couldn't tell. Knew there were a lot of fire trucks
up there and appear to boost a lot of the
police cars. But the devity's sheriff would not allow us
to go up into the drive. He would not allow
us to go up to the house. I asked him,
I told him who I was, told him it was
(09:24):
my sister's house and we were trying to find out
where they were. But he would not allow us to
go up into the drive. So when we left there,
we went to Charles Henry's house, that was Toma Joe's brother,
and we went to Charles Henry's house. He was there.
We he met us at the door, and we went
in and I was talking to him and just asking
him to even know anything, And at that time he
(09:44):
told us he didn't know anything. He didn't know where
they were, he didn't know anything about He did tell
us that he had been to the house. So wait
a minute, they let him in the house or to
the scene, but they wouldn't let you apparently, So he
told us that he had been there and then he
had left, but they would not allow us to go
up into the house. Did he say if he went
(10:05):
there with anyone else? He did not. He didn't say
if he was by himself or him one took him,
or if anybody went with him. He didn't. He did
not imply that anyone had went with him at that time.
He did tell us that his son was there at
the house where we were now at his house, he
was in the bedroom of sleep, but he didn't tell
us whether he didn't say he was at the house
(10:26):
with him. What time of day was it that you
were at Charles's house? We were probably back at charles
is between four thirty and five. How long did you
stay there? We stayed there till after lunch the following day,
all right, at lunch, that was a Friday. We stayed
there toil long was lunch. We were there about twenty
minutes maybe, and my brother Larry Weather, he and his
(10:48):
wife they showed up at Charles's Charles Henrys, and then
maybe another thirty minutes, and my sister showed up there.
And by that time it's probably around five thirty quarter
to six in the morning. And by that time there
were people in the community who had heard about the
house fire that were beginning to show up at the house.
So by six o'clock the house was pretty well full
(11:11):
of people in the community. You mentioned that Charles Son
was sleeping. Did you ever see him come out? I
did not see him until probably ten o'clock the next morning.
Had you been there NonStop that whole time? I had
been in the house from around four thirty and five.
We've been there from four thirty until tween eleven and twelve.
(11:31):
We left and came back to our house between eleven
and twelve p m. Am. Well eleven made him Friday morning.
We were there from five am, probably four thirty am
till eleven or twelve a m. And the only person
you were talking with was Charles correct. He was only
one that came out and talked to me and my brother.
(11:53):
And then probably around eight o'clock the corner Edgar Perry
came over to the house and told us that the
bodies were in the house and that there was foul play.
He did not tell us what had happened, but he
said there was foul play and this was a criminal
investigation at this time. What was your reaction and what
(12:14):
was everyone else's reaction? Well, everyone was shocked and surprised,
you know, you couldn't believe that something like this had
happened to them, just going through your mind, how could
this have happened? Who could have done this? There was
nobody that disliked them. The house is far enough off
the road. Within a day or two, there was all
kinds of theories and all kind of Everybody had their
(12:34):
different opinions and ideas about who did it or what happened.
So who was present when the coroner came to deliver
that news to you, Charles Henry, myself and my wife,
and Charles Henry's I don't believe the son was there
at that time where out when he talked to us,
But there was my sister and my brother and his wife,
and then there was a large number of people from
(12:56):
the community. There was probably twenty or thirty people from
the community were there also, and he he just kind
of took us to the side in the room. But
there were some other people standing around. I couldn't call
their names. Where there were some other people standing around
when he he told us that there was foul play.
Was there anything that you felt was unusual about the
(13:16):
time that you spent at Charles's house that morning? I
don't know it was just kind of quiet. I don't
really know. I'd have to think on that question for
a moment. Well, let me ask you another question. Did
you ever wonder why Charles was allowed to go to
the side of the fire but you weren't. Well, I
(13:37):
did question, Dad. I didn't want to know why we
couldn't go up there since it was our our sister,
and you know, I'm wondering why they wouldn't allow us
to go up there and find out. I know it
was his, his property or his family's property, but I
did question, you know, one couldn't we go up there,
or at least way up there until they found out something.
Why was your sister and her family staying at that
(14:00):
house at that time? They often did that. Toma Joe's
mother and Miss Joe. She lived in Frontadina and I
think I don't know, but I'm pretty sure she had
some valuable items in the house. I know she probably
had her husband or Toma Joe's daddy, Mr. Widman, I
believe at one time. I know one time he had
a lot of guns, a lot of collectible guns, and
(14:23):
she wanted them to stay there for to secure her home.
She had some valuable items there and to help up
keep the home and to show that, you know, somebody
was in and out of the house. So they quite
frequently would go up there and stay. They might stay
up there the weekend, or stay up there three or
four days out a week, or sometimes two or three
weeks out of time, and then go back to their
house in Rebecca, a couple of miles away. But they
(14:45):
stayed because for security reasons for her home. So Miss Joe,
was she a full time resident at Fernandina Beach or
did she split her time and how did that work?
She spent the majority of her time in front of
Dama Beach. I believe for reasons how well she stayed
down there because of the sea air or whatever, or
(15:05):
she had asthma or I don't you know. I don't
know exactly, but it was some health reasons was one
of the reasons she stayed down in front of Dena.
Do you know where she was the night of the fire.
I had thought that she was at her home in
front of Dena. Now later it come out that she
may have been in the hospital, But as she was,
I thought it would have been down there from Dana somewhere.
(15:26):
Then I did see a news report that said it
actually quoted Charles Wideman as saying that she was in
the hospital the night of the fire. That's possible. I
haven't heard anything to verify that, but that's possible. I
know she was very sickly. I know she she passed
away within the week or ten days of Tom and
Joe and Devorah Melissa's death. She passed away, So she
(15:49):
died within a week or ten days of your sister
and her family's murder. That's correct, And she believed that
they did not tell her because of her help. They
didn't tell her until after the funeral latter was all over. Wait,
they didn't tell miss Joe that her family had been murdered.
(16:10):
I think that's correct. I think that's what I had heard,
that they did not tell her until it was after
the funeral. If she was told then, but I believe
it was after the funeral when she was told. Now
(16:35):
I've come to learn that later there was some litigation
between the estate of your sister and the estate of
miss Joe. Is that correct. I'm not as familiar with that.
My brother's more familiar with that part of it. I
would hesitate to answer on that because I'm I don't
(16:55):
know enough to give a correct answer. Okay, can you
tell us about Ms Joe's financial circumstances. Was she well offered?
Was she a person of modest means? I don't know
her exact figure, but she would I wouldn't probably consider
well if she was a landowner, and she probably had
stalking things. But I know she had two or three
(17:15):
farms in the county, in the house in front of
Dana or some property in front of DNA, so I
would you know, I would consider that more than honest.
I don't know an exact figure, but I would think
it's more than modest. When was the last time your
brother in law saw his mother. I believe him and
Charles Henry had went down and visited her within a
(17:36):
month before the murders. I don't know an exact date,
but him and Charles Henry had been down there to
see her. You know, I can't, like I said, I
can't say an exact date, but within weeks or a
month or less from the murders happening. I think he
told me earlier today when we talked, that some people
went to visit her. It just within a day or
two of the murders. Who was that. I believe Charles
(17:58):
Henry's wife and his daughter in law they were there
the day of the murder, and maybe he had went
the day before. I don't know when they left to
go down there, but they were not at the house.
And when you know, we did ask where it was Diane,
his wife, and he said they were down in Fernandina
on the night of the murders. Do you know if
anyone was visiting Ms. Joe? To my knowledge, Diane and
(18:22):
his son's wife were visiting her or had left to
go down there. I don't know when they left, but
he said they were going to Fernandina, So I don't
know when they left to go, but they were going
to Frontandana to see Ms. Joe. So on the night
of the murders, Charles Widenman and his son were in Rebecca,
but the rest of the family was in Fernandina. Is
(18:42):
that correct? Correct? That's what I was told. That's what
Charles Henry had said, that they were gone down there.
He didn't say when they left, but the night in
the murders, he and his son were the only ones
in town or at home. How about your sister and
her family had anyone else gone to visit Ms Joe.
I couldn't say. I know Tom and Joe and Deva
would frequently go down and visit with her and check
(19:04):
on her. They would check on her when she would
come home. But now I can't say for certain who
else went down there to see her, or how often?
Can you tell me the story that we talked about
earlier today about somebody going and seeing her just before
the murders and coming back with some jewelry. I was
told I thought that Tom and Joe had and when
Charles went down there, that she had given Tom and
(19:25):
Joe's some jewelry or something. I don't know how much
or one kind would she had given him some and
had brought it back home. Do you want to talk
about the relationship now between your side of the family
and the Wideman's. Is that something you're comfortable talking about?
Not really? You know, I see them and I speak
with them, and they speak when me. We was at
(19:47):
a I was at a meeting just recently, and and
they were president at the meeting. You know, we we
speak to one another and we've occasionally run into one
another in town. Does anybody ever talk to you about
the murders. People come up from time to time and
they'll ask me or they'll talk to me and they'll
give me their opinion, they'll give me their suspicions. I
(20:08):
have very seldom bring it up from very seldom talk
about it. Our our daughter initiated the conversation. But it
doesn't offend me or bother me. When someone comes up
and they want to talk or they want to ask her,
you know, they want to express their concern. Most time,
when the sheriff comes up and publicizes their murders again
or speaks on the in the newspaper, or speaks on
the local television station in al Any, you know, to
(20:30):
generate some conversations and people come up and they'll talk
with their ask her that you know, they're sorry about
what happened and all it did affect my family. I
don't bring it up and talk about it much because
I had a nine year old son and eleven year
old daughter and a fifteen year old daughter, and we
didn't talk about it a whole lot because of my
nine year old and eleven year old. For over a year.
We had just built a house and we had just
(20:51):
moved in it. We've been here about a year and
for about a year a year and a half, my
two youngest children slept on the floor by the bed
between in the wall and they slept there for a
year and a half as they were afraid, and even
now talking to you and bring it up, it kind
of my wife gets a little nervous, a little scared
when it's brought back up. I didn't bring it up
(21:12):
and didn't talk about it and much around them. Because
of that, my son probably took four or five years
before he would go outside by himself. If we was inside,
he had to be inside. If we were outside, he
had to be outside. Now they were scared, as as
young as they were, they were scared something might happen
to us or you know, they thought, could this happen
to one of us because somebody come to our house
(21:34):
and due to us what happened to my sister. So
when they were president around, we tried not to talk
about it very much, as it took a while for
them to be able to go oude on their own.
If the door opening my son heard it, he would
run outside to see where we was going to where
I was going. It would really bother him. If I
went to town and my wife Vicky, she stayed at home.
(21:56):
He would be a nervous wreck until we would all
be together. He wanted everybody together. He didn't like us
to be separated, so it took its toll on our family.
That's something like this could happen in a small community
like this. Were you ever interviewed by law enforcement? Yes?
And no. The g b I the next day. This
happened probably Friday afternoon, after lunch, two or three or
(22:18):
four o'clock in the afternoon, if you could call it that.
The g b I. He did come by. He asked
me to step outside. I stepped out side. We went
and set in his car. He maybe talked to me
for ten minutes. You know, at the time, you don't
think about what he's doing, but I guess he was
asking some questions to see make sure that I had
an alibi navy. He asked me where was I had
(22:38):
or what was I doing? And I told him that
I had talked to Delver at six o'clock that afternoon,
and then I told him about the phone call in
the middle of the night, and that my wife and
I we went to Rebecca and then we was at
Charles Henry's house, and that was all the questions he
asked me. He never talked to my wife, he never
talked to my kids. He never talked to anybody else
to verify my story. So the g B I never
(23:01):
verified your alibi. They never talked to any other other
my my wife, or my children. They never talked to
them too, you know, never talked to her to say
was this what happened? He never come back and talked
to me. I haven't heard from him since that day.
He talked to me ten minutes in his car, and
I told him about her calling me at since clock.
(23:21):
I told him about us leaving in the middle of
the night and going over there, my wife and I,
and I asked him when I finished telling that, I
asked him did he think they could solve the caation?
He said, yes, every case is this case is solvable.
And so I was left with a feeling that, Okay,
they got enough information somewhere that they will be able
to solve this in a short time or a reasonable time.
(23:43):
And after that day, the GBA and nobody's ever contacted me.
I think they may have. I know my sister and
my brother have called them, but they've never called me
or told me, you know, we're still working on this,
or we've got some leads, or is there anything else
you can tell me. You've asked me more question and
they've asked me. Did they record the conversation that took
(24:04):
place in the car? Not to my knowledge. If he did,
he didn't tell me, but not to my knowledge. He
took him maybe a few notes, but he to my knowledge,
and recording a home. Do you know if he talked
to anyone on the white Man side of the family,
I don't know. He didn't tell me, he didn't ask
for he didn't elaborate. I might have been in a
guardian minute with him. And I've told you or you've
(24:25):
asked more than he asked me. Did anybody ever tell
you how they were murdered? Not directly that Friday night?
Because it was large families. Tommy Joe's family was large,
and they were on Rebecca, and then we lived on
this into the county. My brother lived in another county,
my sister lived in town. So at that time, for
you know, no reason other than the fact that we
(24:47):
both had large families and lots of friends, and also
we agreed that that some of the people can meet
it at my house and some of the people can
meet at Charles Henry's house. So we met here and
that night, Friday night, the distric attorney our district attorneys
in another county. He's from Tifton, and the disc attorney
came over to the house and we went upstairs, me
(25:09):
my sister and my brother, and I believe the sheriff
was here, and we went up into a room and
he told us that, you know, they had been murdered.
He told us they had been shot, but he didn't
give us any other details more than that it was
a murder case, that they felt like that some marson
was involved in it, and that they were shot. He
didn't tell us where, He didn't tell us with what
or nothing like that. You know, I didn't have a
(25:31):
problem with that. But that's all the information on the
other information I've gotten is, you know, a little bit
here and a little bit there, you hear from someone
people taught that were involved in it. Has anyone in
law enforcement ever told you what kind of gun was used? No,
has anyone in law enforcement ever told you where your
(25:51):
sister was shot? Has anyone in law enforcement ever told
anybody you know, either of those things I could. And
so people have commented that, you know, and I don't
know if it's their opinion, are if they have heard
it from some law enforcement, people have commented where they
might have been shock. I know. Finally, I wasn't allowed
(26:13):
to go up the night of the murder and when
the fire they were still putting out the fire. But
three or four days later, within a week, we were
allowed to go up to the house. They said that
they had done all the investigating they needed to do,
and so we were allowed to go up to the
house and you can tell where they had sifted through
the ash and everything. And I questioned one of the
(26:36):
law enforcement about, you know, why was this area sifted
through more than other areas. Was that where the bodies
might have been? And he said, well, that was left
there for y'all's benefit. I'm sorry said that again. When
we went into the house, the house was burnt down
and there was nothing but rubbling ash and you could
walk through what was left. This was about a week
after the murder. They did say the wires were cut.
(26:58):
I did either. All enforcement are some of the firemen,
the gay there said that the telephone wires had been
cut to the house. They do know that. I did
hear that from some from an official line. I couldn't
say which one. But we were allowed to go up
to the house. And so my brother and my sister
and some others we went to the house. And I
did question why did they allow us to go up
(27:20):
there so soon? Or I thought was soon after the murder,
because I told maybe they would want more time for
themselves to check and see if I can find any clues.
But we were allowed to go out there, and you
could tell some areas were it looked like maybe they
had sifted through the rubble and the ashes more. And
so I asked a law official, was that were they
(27:41):
were when they were shot? And he said that. He
didn't come out and say yes. He said, well, that
was left there for y'all's benefit. What did you interpret
that to me? I thought that meant that's where they
were they were laying. I don't know wine they would
want us to see where they were laying, but I
thought that's that was the way of saying yes without
telling me yes. So if that's the case, can you
(28:04):
describe for us where the individuals were laying. I think
one was probably in a living room, one was in
the hall, and one was in the doorway of a bedroom.
None of this was at the front door. It was
all in the interior of the house. Correct. I had
been in the house before I had won every time
of Joe was staying there. I had been a bout
(28:25):
the house of time or two and been inside the house.
So one area appeared to be what was the dinner
living room. One area was in what was the hall
the house, and you know he had a hall. You
go down to the three bedrooms. One was area where
the ashes were sent. It looked like it was in
the hall, and one appeared to be in the doorway.
(28:48):
So basically, the law enforcement officers on the scene, without
telling you directly, they were letting you know that the
bodies were located inside the house. Well, they weren't there
when we went. There were no loss or was there
at the house when we went. We were just told
we could go and visit the side if we wanted to.
But a law enforcement official did tell you that those Okay,
(29:08):
that was a later time. So so basically law enforcement
told you that the shootings took place inside the residents.
They didn't tell me that. They led me to believe
that by what telling me that we when I asked
a question, was that where the bodies were? Then you
(29:29):
hate to assume, but that's once you assumed, they were
allowing you to know. That's what you took away from
this is that it happened inside, but the bodies were
found inside. Law enforcement told you that the telephone wire
was cut to the residents. If it's a law enforcement
or one of the firefighters, but one of the officials
that was there when they were putting out the fire,
(29:49):
whether it was a fireman or whether it was a
volunteer fireman or one of the losses. I don't remember
which one, but we were told that the phone arts
hadn't been cut. I couldn't say who, but I was
also told I asked, I did ask the question. I
don't remember what law losser or whatever. But the door
was not locked, and so I know Tim would not
(30:10):
have opened the door to have told a stranger in
the middle of the night. I asked one of the fireman,
I did ask the question, was the doors locked? And
he said no. So we've got a cut telephone line
at an unlocked door and bodies located inside. The residents
that's the information that I've gathered from different ones that
(30:33):
were the responders that were there at the fire, from
different responders over time. I didn't get all those answers
from the same person, but over time, different ones that
I had talked to that were there was a volunteer
fireman or whether it was a law officer. Those are
some things that that would told you mentioned that your
(30:55):
sister and some others from time to time have contacted
the gb I about this, K. Do you know if
the GBI has told them anything? I do not they
You know, we would talk something, we don't. You know,
every time I hear something, I don't call them because
a lot of us hearsay and any time you talk
(31:15):
with somebody, some of it's something they've heard from two
or three other sources. So I don't call them every
time I hear something. They don't call me every time
that they hear something. But you know, we have we
do communicate, But I don't know. I couldn't tell you
what all the g b I has told them. Do
you have that they have not contacted me and told
me anything. Do you have the impression that anybody is
(31:37):
really still working on this case or is it your
belief that it's probably gathering dust on the files, gathering
dust somewhere. Sometimes I feel like he's gathering dust because
I haven't heard anything in the g B I, So
I don't know. I don't know if he's any pressure
put on them. They weren't politically involved or sometimes I've
feld that way, and I don't blame we've had. You know,
(32:00):
now we're on our third sheriff that's been elected. We
had a sheriff that was in from for a short
time between elections. We're on our fore sheriff. And by now,
you know, it grows cold. And I know the lead
investigator that was working with the sheriff's department when the
murder happened, he no longer works with the sheriff's department.
(32:21):
So I don't know what. You don't know what theories
he had. You don't know what suspicions he had. You
don't know what evidence he had somebody else, you know,
they come in. I don't know how much of that
he passed along. I don't know what theories he might
have had that he could have been working on. So
you know, you have to question, where is it getting cold?
The President sheriff I have talked to and he has
(32:43):
talked to me, and he has communicated with me. He
told me one time not long ago that he had
communicated with the g b I and was wanting them
to get maybe a different set of eyes looking at
the evidence to see, you know, someone else maybe could
pick up or see something that the original investing hers
might not see. Is there anything else that you think
(33:03):
is important that we haven't talked about, that I've missed,
that you think might be important. I just want someone to,
you know, just keep asking questions and keep it current,
because sooner or later, you know, maybe somebody will say something,
somebody will remember something. People have a tendency either if
someone that didn't have a conscious at all, they either
going to brag about it, or someone has a conscious
(33:25):
they're gonna feel guilty and want to tell someone maybe
to get forgiveness. So one or the two. Either they're
gonna brag about doing it and not getting caught, or
either they're going to want someone to forgive them because
their consciousness bothering them. But either way, they're going to
talk to somebody somewhere sometime, And so we have to
keep it going and keep it current so that that
(33:45):
person that hears that vital information will come forward with it. Well,
what I can tell you is that we've recently come
across some information that somebody claims to know quite a
bit about the specific facts of this case, and we've
passed that onto the g b I. What they do
(34:06):
with it, I don't know, But what I can tell
you is that we've come across some information that has
the potential to solve this case, and we passed it
onto the g b I very recently. Well, I am
very grateful, and I'm very thankful for what you're doing.
I'm thankful that you took interest in it and that
you're bringing it back to light, because that keeps people talking,
(34:26):
and it keeps it fresh on other people's mind. And
each time we did a let my sheriff, they would
come and they would ask for my vote, and I
would ask them to treat the case as though it
was one of their relatives, meaning that I wouldn't want
them to just put it in a box and let
it collect dust, but to keep digging at it until
they found somebody. After speaking with David Wheeler, I thought
(34:49):
more about what I had heard, and I reached back
out to clarify just a couple of details. I wanted
to know more about the scene at Charles Henry's house
the morning of the fire, David wrote to me. When
we arrived at Charles Henry and Diane's home, Charles Henry
told us Chip was there. So just to keep things
straight here, Chip Wideman is Charles Henry's adult son who
(35:12):
was married at the time and did not live at
his parents house. David goes on to say he was
told Chip had taken a bath and gone to bed.
That conversation took place at approximately four to four thirty
a m. We did not see Chip until close to
lunch on Friday. To my knowledge, Charles Henry voluntarily told
us about Chip. We never asked where he was. David
(35:36):
also clarified that, according to what he was told at
the time of the fire, Diane Wideman was in Florida
along with her son, Chip's wife, visiting Miss Joe, and
that they had been there since the day before the fire,
which would have been Thursday. We've actually been looking at
the Wideman murders for quite some time now, you see.
(35:56):
When Payne Lindsay, host of our Sister podcast up in
was in South Georgia investigating the disappearance of Irwin County
history teacher and beauty queen Tera Grinstead. Someone told paying
some very compelling information about the Wideman murders in nearby Rebecca, Georgia. Later, however,
when we tried to follow up with this person, he
(36:17):
didn't have anything to say except for calling us swine. Nevertheless,
we were able to independently corroborate much of what the
caller had initially said the first time. We were able
to corroborate that his ex son in law did in
fact Diana car crash, and we were able to corroborate
that a close relative of the Wideman murder victims was
(36:40):
a pallbearer at the funeral following that car crash. So
why the change of heart on behalf of this caller.
That's anyone's guess at this point. But this person's purported
knowledge of the case could well be the key to
finally solving the Wideman murder case. After fifteen long years,
(37:01):
just by talking to the community, asking questions and looking
at publicly available information, we've learned quite a bit about
this unsolved triple murder. I wonder what would be possible
if the g b I, or even someone like John
Dawes were to really put their shoulder into this, what
else might they learn if they redoubled their efforts with
(37:22):
the full investigative capabilities of the State of Georgia. Now
it's important to understand we're not accusing anyone of anything,
but in addition to the phone call that we turned
over to the g b I, which frankly, in my opinion,
has the potential to solve this case entirely, we did
come across something else that we found interesting and at
(37:43):
a minimum quite odd. Remember, Tommy, Joe and Deborah Wideman
had a nephew, Charles Wideman the third, also known as
Chip Wideman. According to David Wheeler, Chip and his father Charles,
were the only ones at Charles Wideman's home on the
morning of the murders. He also mentioned that Chip wasn't
really anywhere to be seen in the immediate aftermath of
(38:05):
the fire. I don't know what this means, and we're
not accusing anyone of anything, but one thing on chips
Facebook page at the time of this recording really caught
our attention. It's what is listed as his favorite quote.
It says three can keep a secret if two are dead.
(38:32):
We will continue to follow this case in the future
and plan to come out with more episodes in a
few months, so please, if you have any information at
all about this case, contact the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
You can also contact us directly at Sworn tips at
gmail dot com. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason Lindsay and Meredith
(38:56):
Steadman and myself Philip Holloway. Sound designed by Pine Lindsay,
Executive producers Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Mixed and mastered
by Resonate Recordings. Also, if you haven't yet, please check
out our sister podcast, Up and Vanished that follows the
investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High School teacher and
beauty queen Tara Grinstead ven Vanished is available now on
(39:19):
Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. This is Philip Holloway and
I'll see you next time on Sword
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Start Here
A straightforward look at the day's top news in 20 minutes. Powered by ABC News. Hosted by Brad Mielke.
3. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.