October 20, 2017 • 52 mins
This bonus episode of Sworn is dedicated to the victims of the Las Vegas Massacre, their families, and all who responded to the crisis. Sworn is not a political podcast. However, in light of recent events, this episode will focus on major issues highlighted by the media following incidents of mass gun violence, and examine them from a legal perspective. Mixed by ResonateRecordings.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
You place your left hand on the bay and Bible
and raise your right hand and repeat after me. I
solemnly swear jury trying it attended this weekend in Ferguson
and around the country's resisting your It makes no sense
if it doesn't fit your must equip judge. You are
the last line of reason in this case. Every one
(00:31):
of us took it all the sas and we're scorn
to a poll of the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. This episode
is dedicated to the memory of the lives lost in
the October one mass murder in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's
(00:53):
also dedicated in honor of the first responders and Seville
and heroes who prevented this from being any more terrible
than it already was. The uncomfortable truth is that mass
murder has been around as long as human kind. We'll
explore the question of whether anything could have been done
to prevent this tragedy in Las Vegas, while we also
(01:15):
explore and break down the Second Amendment and what the
Supreme Court has told us that the Second Amendment means.
(01:38):
Joy six nine. We got shots fired for day and
bringing any one. So I'm like, I'm out a fire
up because that when you signed dammy shop, I'll start
generally me. I'll play off like a shot gun. I'll
play up Drols. We have a we have an acre room,
(02:11):
brave and the whole ward got the audience of the
thirty sickond floors. One has explosive breach everyone and know
how I need to lose it back. All units move back.
We need the air flare for Debra. Twenty one suspicked
down inside the room. Twenty one s picked down inside
the room. There's one down, thirty sick animal day. On
(02:47):
the night of October one, America experienced an unspeakable tragedy,
the largest mass shooting in modern US history and the
most fatal attack on our soil since September eleven, two
thousand one. A gunman named Stephen Paddock opened fire on
the audience at the Root Harvest Music Festival in Las Vegas, Nevada.
(03:11):
Our hearts go out to the friends and the families
of any and all of the victims. Our deepest condolences
are extended to those who lost their lives and the
loved ones they left behind, and our greatest hope is
for a swift and full recovery for everyone who was injured.
Up to this date, the US mass shooting with the
(03:31):
most fatalities was in Orlando, Florida, at the Pulse nightclub
in June of The shooter in that case was Omar Matene,
who killed forty nine people and wounded fifty eight at
the least. With mass shootings like the Las Vegas massacre
at the forefront of everyone's mind, I'd like to take
this opportunity to discuss the topical issues at hand. This
(03:53):
tragic incident has brought a lot of attention to the
ongoing political discussion of gun control laws and terrorism and
what can we do to protect ourselves in situations like this.
Of course, this podcast is not a political discussion, and
it's not our intention to make it one. But this
is also a real part of the criminal justice system,
and so it's relevant and appropriate for us to discuss
(04:16):
the issue of mass murder. So to tie this into
the greater theme of SWORN, I'll be discussing the issues
that have risen in the media since the Las Vegas massacre,
and I'll be discussing them through the lens of legality.
Would gun control laws helped prevent this situation from occurring?
How else would gun control laws affect us as a country.
(04:38):
Why isn't this labeled as domestic terrorism? Some people think
that it should be. However, federal law defines terrorism as
the use of violence to intimidate or coerce a government
or civilians to influence policy. So if this isn't that,
then what is it. Here's Sworn producer Meredith Steadman with
(05:00):
a more detailed look at the events of the tragedy
of October one in Las Vegas. The sadness surrounding the
events of October one has been inescapable. The Las Vegas
massacre has permeated our news outlets, as it should given
the devastating circumstances. Because there's been such constant coverage, it
(05:22):
can be hard to keep the facts straight. We wanted
to give you a brief overview of what information has
been disclosed. The perpetrator of this massacre was sixty four
year old Stephen Craig Paddock. Paddock, who lived in multiple
places throughout the course of his life, was currently a
resident of Mesquite, Nevada, about an hour from Las Vegas.
He was an accountant and a real estate investor, successful
(05:45):
enough to sustain his gambling hobby, which brought him to
Las Vegas fairly often. Paddock suggested that his girlfriend Mary
Lou Danley go to the Philippines two weeks before the
incident occurred. He bought her a plane ticket and later
wired her a thousand dollars. She said she had no
knowledge of his plans or of any mental health issues
that he may have been struggling with. Paddock's brother, Eric Paddock,
(06:10):
said the same. The massacre began just after ten pm
on Sunday night. From his room on the thirty second
floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort. Paddock opened fired into
the crowd at the Root Harvest Music Festival during the
set of country singer Jason al Dean. Paddock has smashed
out the window of his hotel room with a hammer.
(06:30):
Prior to shooting, Paddock placed cameras in and around his room,
one in the people in, two in the hallway to
monitor the hallways for security personnel. He had twenty three
rifles in the hotel room and one handgun. Twelve of
the firearms were altered with bump fire stocks, which allow
semi automatic rifles to function as fully automatic weapons. After
(06:54):
a search was conducted, nineteen more firearms were found in
Paddock's home, along with explosives in severn a thousand rounds
of ammunition. Ammonium nitrate, often used in homemade explosives, was
found in the trunk of his car. Paddock was found
dead in his room with a self inflicted gunshot wound
to the head. His motive is still undetermined. People were
(07:16):
killed in this incident, with over five dred injured. This
is now the largest mass shooting in modern UN's history,
surpassing the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando. Good afternoon, is
(07:39):
this Dr Wilki, Good after day and how are you today?
Doing great? How are you sir? Well? I think all
things are fine, looking forward to a nice week in
the weather. Would you mind starting by letting us know
just a little bit about who you are and identifying
yourself please? I served in the Atlanta area as the
chief of police of the City of Aca George up
in cop County for right at ten years twenty five
(08:00):
years total in the law enforcement field, before retiring six
years ago to go on exactly at Bob Jens University
I've be in Greenville, South Carolina about James Is as
a Christian College, and I teach in our criminal justice section,
graduate the FBI National Academy, hold a doctoral degree in
public administration from Baldosta State University. For most of my
(08:24):
time as a as a law enforcement officer, I also
served as a police firearms instructor. How long have you
been teaching firearms? How many years total teaching firearms? Probably
somewhere in excess of twenty five years, and in terms
of handling films, something excess of fifty years. Does that
include what's commonly referred to as assault rifles as well,
(08:47):
that misnomer that is given to platforms such as the
a R fifteen. Yes, I do handle those firearms and
have shot them and have instructed in them. How about
fully automatic weapons? I'm not certified and fully automatic weapons
handled a number of them, both in the civilian law
enforcement in the military context. I'm not actually certified to
(09:09):
teach that particular file. So we want to talk about
what happened in Las Vegas. I'm sure you've been following
the news, and one of the topics that I want
to talk about first is go back and explain why
you said the term assault rifle is a misnomer place
that term is applied to some way that we've made
(09:32):
in funt arms such as the ALE fifteen, the a
K four seven similar firearms like that that are long
rifles that have a magazine capacity, usually in excess of
ten rounds in the magazine. That's worthing. The term assault
rifle really essentially showed about nowhere as far as I'm concerned,
(09:52):
is a essentially a media term that has been handled
and given to a number of different firms platforms such
as the a R fifteen, a K forty seven, and
other rifles that will handle magazines that have capacity of
more than ten rounds or so your average hunting rifle
(10:13):
magazine on the hulls somewhere around three to five rounds,
depending on what the state allows for hunting purposes. Pretty
much anything over that, the media has just started calling
them assault lines, which is I don't think really an
appropriate term now. As a civilian and as a firearms
instructor and as an advocate frankly for the Second Amendment,
(10:34):
I think that there's the question that if you begin
to limit the types of access that civilians in this
country can have to firearms to an a K forty seven.
That's the camel sticking its nose under the proverbial tent.
And you just have a whole population that just does
not trust where the government will stop on that sort
(10:55):
of thing. And I think that the answer is not
to go after the gun. The answer is to go
after the violin. And if you have people in this
country who commit crimes while they are armed, that's where
our most serious penalties need to be, and to take people,
put them in jail and leave them in jail if
they committed a crime and had a firearm on their person.
(11:18):
In the middle nineteen nineties, we began incarcerating people seriously
in this country who had committed serious felts and we
took them out of the pool of being able to
commit additional crimes. And since the middle nineteen nineties, across
the country, violent crime has plummeted because we are taking
the repeat offenders out of circulation. They couldn't do their
(11:41):
crimes anymore. We put them in jail, We put them
in a place where they cannot harm people. In South
Carolina alone, since ninet, violent crime has dropped over and
that statistic is fairly well mirrored across the country. That
gives us a pretty good answer right there. Take the
people who couldmit gun crime, put them in jail, and
(12:03):
leave them in jail. And I commented to this group
that to date to that day, a couple of weeks ago,
the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando ranked as the highest
mass shooting that we had in the United States. But
I told that as I said, but don't worry. There's
someone out there right now who was thinking about the
Fulse nightclub shooting and saying to themselves, I'm going to
(12:26):
go set the new record and long behold. Two weeks
or so after I made that statement, someone comes along
and does what this individual did and killing all of
those people. When the Second Amendment was drafted and adopted,
basically they were dealing with muskets, and obviously an air
fifteen is much more powerful than a musket. So back
in that day, you know, if they wanted to, they
(12:47):
could afford one. They could own a cannon out in
the backyard instead of shooting skip that's our cannonballs if
they wanted to. I'm saying that someone is just, but
I'm also seeing it to make a point exactly what
the militaries have in terms of their firepower and their weapons.
This is exactly what the civilians were entitled to have
under the Second Amendment. It would be not that difficult
(13:10):
to take a semi automatic firearm of any nature and
converted into an automatic firearm. It would not be that
terribly difficult to do that with anything, which when you
stop and think about that, if that's what happened, and
I don't know that that's what happened, all the details
not at yet, but if that's what happened with demand
(13:32):
few is responsible for shooting all those people in Las Vegas,
then he already demonstrated going to break the law to
do what he did. What law can we pass that
would have stopped that? Well? As us needed. The District
of Columbia as a model policy and model city ordinance
that prevents the distribution and ownership firearms and restricts them
(13:55):
and so forth. And that's why the District of Columbia
has one of the lowest Oh wait a minute, no,
it don't. The District of Columbia, even with their stringent
laws that were founded in a constitutional has one of
the highest NERD routes for Capola in the country, so
let's go out to it. How about the city of Chicago.
They have some pretty good ordinance there. They're restrictive on
gun possession and ship and that's why they have some
(14:17):
of the lowest crime rates and the nerd Wait, wait, no,
they don't. They have some of the highest actions of
gun violence and murder in the country. I'm not sure
that we can come up with the law because of
those that we have on the bucks have not been
factored in deterring gun violence. And that's why I'm contending,
you know, the focus ought to be on the offender,
(14:38):
not on the firelar. You do any kind of crime
with a gun, then you have demonstrated a willingness to
use that gun and kill somebody. The mere fact that
you have it with you when you're committing a crime
shows that you're willing to use it. Maybe you didn't
use it when you robbed that bank. Maybe you can't
shoot anybody, but you had it with you. And you
(14:59):
know why, as a society, we are not going to
give you that chance again. We're gonna take you and
put you in jail, put the rest of your natural life.
What would you advise people to do in the event
of an active shooter if they find themselves, you know,
in a situation like we saw in Las Vegas. There
are a number of different training systems that are out there,
but most of them come down around three fundamental things
(15:21):
that an individual should do if they find themselves subject
to an active shooter. And the number one thing that
is recommended by in the training systems and I think
by law enforcement as well, this is on the FBI website,
is to run, at the minimum, create a moving target.
It's hard hit one that is moving than it is
to quiet wom that is just simply standing there. But
(15:44):
get out of there, run as fast as you can
and remove yourself from the scene. That's the number one
recommendation from all circles. Secondly, if you cannot run, perhaps
the shooter is somehow between you and you and an
egress from the building, your point of exit from the building.
If you cannot run, then you hide, hide under something,
(16:07):
Barricade yourself in a room, lock the doors, turn out
the lights, get furniture in front of the door, making
yourself as a flat on the floor as you can't,
and be absolutely silent and hide because maybe as the
shooter moves to the building looking for victims. Maybe he'll
miss you because you are well hidden. But then failing
(16:29):
that you can't run and you can't hide, or perhaps
the shoot find you. Your last option is to fight,
and by fighting, that means you offer everything you've got
to try to stop that shooter from killing you or
injuring you or someone else. At that point, it's your
life against the life of the person who's a sailing
and you throw everything you possibly have at that individual
(16:52):
to stop them. If you happen to be an armed citizen,
you know, someone who is authorized by your perspective state
to carry your fireing on your person, if you have
the opportunity to engage that individual with that firearm, then
you would certainly do so to try to protect yourself
and others. That's not something you want to do in
the middle of your church congregation with six hundred people
(17:13):
standing around, or as Philip and I've talked about in
the past, and you know, maybe crowded movie theaters or
places like that, that just limits your options because you
cannot go shooting in there, you know, and take a
chance on on missing and hitting an innocent person. You
fight for your life because your life is on the line.
You cannot legislate evil into non existence. Let's be clear
(17:37):
about one thing. Sworn is not a political podcast, but
we cannot forget that there are lots of people whose
opinions differ from Mike Wilkis. On the other side of
his argument. There are also those who believe that gun
restriction is truly the only way to see a definitive
decrease in these tragedies. For a differing viewpoint, we talked
(17:58):
to Antoine Seawright, a Democratic strategist who, like Mike Wilkie,
is from South Carolina. So just to give your background,
I'm a political consultant and one of my clients was
killed in a church two years ago here in South
Carolina is the state Senator Clemente Pinkney. And I don't
know if you remember when Dylan Ruth, the white terrorists
who killed nine people in the church here in South Carolina.
(18:22):
Clemented the past of the church was my client. It's
a simple thing we called the Charleston loophole. His background
check in the time period did not come back, but
they still sold him the gun. And so had there
been a law in place that says, look if the
background check does not come back within three days, then
you can't purchase a gun. Then perhaps he never would
have been able to have a gun to shoot nine people.
(18:44):
So my name is Antoine ce Right. I own a
public relations, advertising and political strategy firm called Blueprint Strategy,
is based here in Columbia, South Carolina. I've done from
a pain perspective. I've probably been involved in well over
a hundred and fifty campaigns and well over a hundred
(19:07):
ballot initiatives represent a number of political entities as well
as elected officials, from members of you guys Congress on
down to dog Catcher. I also am on Fox News
on occasion to provide some political commentary, and I have
a radio show. Can we just go straight into it
(19:29):
and have you explained to us your standpoint on gun
control us. Well, first of all, let me just say
my thoughts and prayers are with the families and the
community of Las Vegas, because when one of our brothers
and sisters in this country are hurting or have feel
some sort of pain, I think we all hurt. And
it's very tragic. What happened one of the largest killings
(19:51):
on record, and I call the massacre is very unfortunate
that the person who shot and kill these people and
injured so many others has not been labeled as a
domestic terrorist. There's another shooting, and here we are having
another conversation about gun laws. Yet some of my Republican
friends and Republican leaders say, as soon as these things happened,
(20:12):
not the time. Well we've had almost a week now
in between the incident and we still have not had
a legislative conversation about gun control laws. And one could
argue that, oh, well, we don't need more gun control laws.
We just need to pray for our country, or we
just need to deal with the people who have been
(20:34):
committing these crimes because they have mental issues, and we
can keep making excuses. But the more excuses we make,
the more people literally will die on American soul, not
by anyone from any country that Mr Trump proposes Muslim
band form, but these are homegrown American terrorists. So with
Las Vegas specifically, do you think that it could have
(20:57):
been prevented? Absolutely, But we have learned so far is
that one perhaps change in the law to deal with
bump stocks could have perhaps prevented this is happening. We
also spoke with Kim Alfano, a parent and GOP strategist.
She told us about a personal experience with a shooting
(21:19):
close to her daughter's school. Even as a representative of
the Republican Party and their candidates, she believes that there
are some modifications that could be made to existing gun
laws that might increase everyone's safety. I'm Kim Alfano. I
own a political media consulting firm on the Republican side
for twenty seven years now. I also worked in education
(21:42):
advocacy and education reform advocacy, criminal justice reform advocacy, and
do some types of things like that on the side
versus just candidate work and raise my daughter. Speaking of
your daughter, could you tell that story and then kind
of tied into your thoughts on gun control? When might
it was in first grade? It was shortly after Sandy Hook.
(22:03):
We lived in downtown Alexandria, Virginia, right outside DC. She
went to an adorable little public school. They were outside
playing on playground, and the playground is kind of It's
a very pedestrian city. It's not, you know, like being
in downtown New York. But it's also not like being
in the suburbs where the schools are kind of off
in a field. There are people walking by at all
(22:23):
times and cars and things, and their playgrounds sort of
fenced in by three sides, and the kindergarten and first
graders were all out on the playground at that moment,
and she happened to be back by the back part
of the fence that sort of faced the neighborhood street
and was playing on the swings and there was a
guy who had committed some crimes and was I guess
(22:44):
he was walking through the streets of Alexandria. Basically officer
little boy whose children had gone to Belas School, so
he was very familiar to the kids at the school.
He happened to pull this guy over and he walked
up to the car. He didn't realize this guy had
committed a crime. He wasn't looking for him. I think
he pulled him over for a traffic violation and the
(23:07):
guy had pulled out a gun and shot him point
blank in the head. And he was on the other
side of the car from the kids. You know, there
was basically the road the sidewalk, and the kids are
inside the fence, so some of the kids were right
up against the fence he was luckily on the other
side of the car, so they didn't see everything go down.
But basically, you know, my daughter said she heard pops
(23:29):
because she had her back to it. She was swinging
on the swings, and some of the kids said they
heard something, you know, heard like a bag thud. So
basically it was the officer falling down like some really
smart teachers heard it, realized what was going on, grabbed
all the kids. They all were brought inside. They were
locked down in the gym. Again, this is right after
Sandy Hook, so everybody was completely on edge anyway, locked
(23:52):
him down, They did the drill where they all had
to sit in the gym, and then there was an
email sent out to parents, Hey, we're locked down. Here's
the situation as we know it. And then probably about
thirty five minutes later, they realized it was an isolated incident.
They had gone to catch the guy. He fled. The
metic Metavac helicopter landed in the schoolyard to take the
police officer off to the hospital, and the kids were
(24:14):
out of their sort of Jim lockdown by then, so
a lot of them looked out the window and saw
that happening. They kind of didn't, you know, since such
little grades it's in elementary school, they didn't really tell
him what was going on, but a lot of kids
sort of pieced it together, and then about o'clock we
were alligable back in the level. I know hunters, I
know clients who are staunch advocates of the Second Amendment,
(24:38):
and I understand why they are, and I know them
to be good people. So I had never been a
huge advocate one way or another on it. But I
was never such an anti gun person. I know so
many responsible people who have guns, but when that happened,
I was terrified. Now, my my thoughts didn't run towards
why does that guy have a gun? Because it was
a you know, a gun that was it's common, It
(25:01):
wasn't a machine gun. He didn't shoot up the school,
he didn't do anything. But just how can this stuff
happen right near my kid? You know, what's the world
coming to? Where the suburbs and the Bucolic you know,
rolling hills of our neighborhoods are now kind of up
for grabs. In the case of Oklahoma City, in the
case of this guy that shot officer lit boy, in
(25:21):
the case of Sandy Hook, it was all mental health.
There are people out there that are hurting, that are
not getting help, and they go down these rabbit holes
and do not come out, and we have tragedies as
a result. I know, the guy in Las Vegas, there
wasn't any indicator that anything that that would have popped
on a background check, on mental health background check, but
clearly he's mentally unstable because he shot up a lunch
(25:45):
of people. So I think stronger mental health, stronger education
about spotting and understanding when people are in difficult situations,
you know, with the opioid crisis, you know, mental health
and addiction counseling, all of that, I think is how
you answer this. It's not necessarily a gun law because
(26:06):
of the people who own all those guns. Everybody's freaked
out about don't commit crimes. You know, we hear about
these outrageous, sensationalized ones. But in you know, Illinois and
Chicago where there's horrifying gun violence, it's happening with illegal guns,
and they have strict gun laws. So gun laws don't
prevent gun crime. It's criminals and the unstable people using guns.
(26:31):
About Oklahoma City, somebody with a car and some fertilizer
killed three times as many people as occurred in you know,
Las Vegas. Not to diminish what happened in Las Vegas,
but anyone with evil intent, where an unstable mind will
find a way to create a weapon. So solving this
or that issue. Obviously, bump stocks need to be addressed.
(26:52):
Nobody wants people out there with automatic weapons. And there's
some pretty common sense things, but you're not getting to
the underlying cause. How do you think we become more
proactive in addressing mental health issues? Where does that come
in in play when trying to purchase a firearm? I
just knee jerk reaction, as a mom would be. There
needs to be some sort of element of the background
(27:15):
check that allows for part of the process of get
I mean, if I want to be a daycare worker,
you do a mental health check on me, right, So
if I'm gonna have a gun, you should be able
to do a mental health check. I mean, now to
keep that record. I get how gun rights advocates are saying, no,
you can't build a database of those of us with issues,
(27:35):
So the record goes away, just like the background check
goes away. It doesn't get stored anywhere it doesn't get kept.
There's gotta be a way to at least screen out
the low hanging fruit of people who have been in
mental health treatment before, or who have been cited for
domestic violence, or who have been cited for any number
of things. Like I said, I work on education reform issues,
(27:58):
and I work on criminal justice for warm issues. Weal
there's two places right there that nip issues in the butt.
Kids that are caught in horrible cycles of poverty and
dependence and lack of a good education, so there's no
way for them to get out of that cycle. Those
are kids that are gonna get sucked in the neighborhoods
and become drug dealers. Those are kids that are going
(28:19):
to become parts of gangs, that are going to become
parts of violence. Let's give them the opportunity to get
out of those situations and break that cycle for their family.
And so the kid that's nineteen that gets picked up
because he has you know, drug paraphernali in his car
and goes to prison for five years or eighteen months
or whatever it is, is in a prison for eighteen
months with a career professional drug dealer who could teach
(28:43):
them how to cook meth, And who's going to indoctrinate
him into a gang in those eighteen months, And who's
going to get them in the into a cycle where
someone had given him drug addiction treatment. Send him to
a boot camp. That kid might turn around and have
a productive life. So another place to sort of hide
and help you bowl just your criminal justice reform. Instead
of putting them into the system. Let's find ways and
(29:04):
treatments and and put some government money into helping people
with addictions and with mental health issues. I'm not sure
there's a gun law that we could have passed in
the wake of that that next day. And I think
anyone Republican Democrat, if you had a heart in your chest,
if someone said this is something that would stop this
from ever happening again, gun rights advocate or not, you
(29:25):
would have said, let's do it. But I don't think
that there was any one thing that anyone could point
to that would have said this will never happen again.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm not
sure the answer is to say, you hunter in New
Hampshire can't have a gun, you know, I mean, after
all these truck deaths and like we saw in Charlotte.
So do what you say. You can't have cars? I mean,
(29:48):
how do you address the underlying problem by just focusing
on the equipment. Mason stopped by a local firearms store
to walk us through the steps of buying a gun.
If I were to come in here, I'm gonna a
bunch of the stools, shotguns, see a RS on the wall.
What process would it be for me to buy again?
(30:09):
All right? So, first and foremost, if you even want
to come in here and hold a gun, you got
the eighteen for a long rifle. You gotta twenty one
for handguns. Check your i D. Make sure you got
valid driver's license, carry permits something. If you have no
government issued i D with that current address, I can't
even let you do that. If you want to actually
buy something, you gotta at least have a valid driver's license.
(30:31):
You've got to be of age, and you've gotta have
a current address on your government achieve documentation, so you
know if you have a driver's license INSE valid. Even
if you got a carry permit, if nothing's got your
current address on it, I can't sell you anything. Once
you've got all that, all that checks out. We gotta
sit you down and do some seventy three paperwork which
basically fill out you know, your name, place of birth, address,
(30:54):
all the kind of pertinent information. Are you the actual
buyer of the gun? Where you ever unlawfully and are
you wanted for a felony or you a fugitive from
justice where you ever dishonorably discharged. All that kind of
stuff will disqualify you just like that. On top of that,
if you don't have a carry permit, we have to
run a background check on you. And if that doesn't
come back, you can either get delayed or denied, and
(31:16):
you can you can just get let go, depending on
how the background check goes. But that's the part that
kills a lot of sales is someone will come in
put their background check in, it will get sent to
the FBI, and the FBI I'll be like, don't do
it right. You mentioned age, So what age is it
to buy a firearm. There's certain type of firearms I
can or cannot buy a certain age. At eighteen years old,
(31:39):
you can buy long rifles and shotguns. At years old
you can buy handguns. And that's pretty much it for age.
So in eighteen year old with the proper identification and
checks out coming here and buy an a R. The
problem in an eighteen year old would have to come in,
have their proper identification and have I do with their
(32:01):
current address and everything, have their background check go smoothly,
no problems, no delays, no hold ups. If everything went perfectly,
we could have them out here the same day. But
that's provided everything went perfectly. We as the sales people,
have the ultimate authority to cancel any sale. We don't
necessarily have to have a reason. It can be I'm
getting a bad vibe from this situation, I don't want
(32:23):
to sell this. We don't have to. We can go
to a manager and to be like, look, we're not
doing this. The big, huge red flags, some of the
really obvious ones are if somebody comes into the store
and gives money to somebody else and that person is
buying the gun. So as a as a gun a salesman,
you would say, how do you advise to do the
(32:44):
best sale to make sure you're putting a gun in
the right person's hands. As a gun salesman, it's pretty
much just gauge whether the person knows what they're talking about,
if they seem inexperienced, if they don't seem to really
know what they're doing. They're like, have you ever shot
a gun before? Do you have much practice? Do you
go to the range very often? And if the answers
to any of those questions are, hey, no, I don't
really know what I'm doing. You know, Georgia Firing Line
(33:05):
is right down the road. They're building a complex right
across the street. There's Wild West Traders in Austell. No
matter where people are coming from, I can generally say,
there's a range near you, and they offer rental guns,
so go out there rent a gun. You know, they
offer safety courses as well. Like my dad works over
a while West Traders in Austell and he teaches safety
(33:25):
courses there. So I can say, hey, sit down with
these people and now at least give you a rundown
of what you need to know. But here it's like, look,
we're selling guns, so we have to make sure it's
done safely, that we go through the proper channels, and
that we avoid any bad situations. Mason asked if it
is anywhere difficult to bind a R versus afore ten.
(33:45):
The man said, besides cost, no, you just need to
be a teen. To give some perspective, in this country,
you have to be twenty one to drink, but at
eighteen you can walk around with an air in public.
Even with current regulations, it turns out it is pretty
easy to purchase. Again, probably easier than it should be.
One debate that has surfaced since the massacre in Las
Vegas is what do we label this? Is this an
(34:08):
act of terrorism domestic terrorism? What exactly is the difference.
We discussed this topic and more with Rebecca Grant, highly
experienced national security and military analyst. My name is Rebecca Grant.
I have a PhD and international relations. I'm a national
security analyst and defense consultants here in Washington, d C.
(34:28):
After an incident like this, the first question in people's
minds could there be any link to known terrorist groups?
So one of the first questions is they begin to
identify a perpetrator is to look and see in this case,
were there any links to ISAIS a lot of confusion
occurred when ISIS decided to take advantage and claim that
(34:51):
they had been responsible in some way for this event.
There's done no corroboration of that. That was just the
terrorist being very very opportunistic. So right now we have
not heard of any ties between Haddock and a designated
terrorist group, or at least a designated international terrorist group.
(35:14):
And the crazy thing was that ISAIS had issued one
of its periodic warnings a few days before this took place,
saying that citizens in big cities of the world Paris,
Los Angeles, etcetera. Should really take cover and not go
out in public. So that non specific warning had popped up,
(35:34):
and I think for some people there was an immediate
question of, oh my gosh, was this link? Was there
a warning? And then was this the link? You know.
The other thing that was terribly similar, of course, was
the attack in Las Vegas and the attacks several months
earlier this year in Manchester where we saw a concert
as of target. So I think there were enough superficial
(35:58):
similarities to raise but right now we're just not seeing
anything that definitively links Paddock to a radical Islamic group
of any kind. The main definition of terrorism is a
lawful force and violence terrorist act, but it has to
(36:18):
have a purpose to it to intimidate or coerce the
government or the civilian population or any segment thereof. So
we think of terrorism as part of a cause very evil,
very bad, but that it has to have this political
objective attached to it. So under the strict definition, it
(36:41):
doesn't look like the Las Vegas incident is an act
of terrorism strictly defined. Now, does that mean it's not
horrible and terrifying? Oh my gosh, it was absolutely terrifying.
The Las Vegas shooting doesn't meet the strict definition of
terrorism because there's not that political element to it. So
the Las Vegas shooter fits a little bit better into
(37:04):
a kind of a subcategory of domestic terrorists. And to me,
they would include people like Eric Rudolph with the bombings,
individuals who are carrying out horrible acts of violence but
without that attachment to an international group or a big
(37:25):
political movement. Now, our government has tracked what we sometimes
call homegrown terrorists for a long time, you know. Another
big example, of course, is Timothy McVey in the Oklahoma
City bombings, which were very, very tragic. In some cases,
these individuals have a political agenda of their own, They've
(37:47):
made statements in some cases they have it. So these
lone wolf domestic terrorists are particularly hard to track unless
they meet some of the profile criteria that look for.
We've been using a set of profile criteria to watch
kind of homegrowner domestic terrorist candidates for quite a long time.
(38:09):
But when like Stephen Paddock, they really don't fit that profile,
it's hard to figure out what they're up to, and
it's hard to really know how to classify the terrible
deeds that they've done. For many years now, part of
the study of terrorism has been to try to figure
out why individuals decide to commit these acts of terror,
and in that study, there is extensive study of people
(38:31):
within the United States who meet a certain profile. The
typical profile and you'll find us in any of the
academic literature would be someone who has had access to firearms,
someone who's had military training, someone who lives in isolated life,
someone who may have had relatives or close associates involved
(38:54):
in terrorist acts or incarcerated. Their number of profile elements
that have been used for many years to try to
spotlight individuals within certain social groups in the US who
may be heading towards committing an act of violence. I
think the profile has been pretty useful in helping law
(39:15):
enforcement keep watch. Particularly let's say if you have a
radical group, you know radicals of Maryland. What was so
tragic and heartbreaking with the Las Vegas shooter was he
really didn't meet any of that profile that has been
helpful in the past. He was older, he was financially
well off, and there was nothing in his background that
(39:38):
was going to trip this profile. He owned a lot
of guns, which means he had passed multiple background checks,
and what is so scary about him was that he
didn't match that profile which has been new successfully in
other cases. Like everyone else, I'm desperate to find a
reason why this happened, and we want to find a
(39:58):
reason so we can work to prevent it in the future.
When we don't have that reason, I think it's doubly painful.
Not only is it a senseless act, but we don't
know what steps we might be able to take in
the future to make sure things like this don't happen again.
So my view is that unless we get more evidence
that hasn't come forth yet. You know, he wanted to
(40:19):
go out in a blaze of glory. It was very
personal to him. Some have said he had become mentally
ill over time. There may be an element there, but
he's going to turn out to be just a unique
force of evil that sprang up and committed this terrible act.
I don't see connection to a terrorist group. I don't
think that his horrible act means that there's something wrong
(40:44):
with our country or with American culture in general. He's
going to turn out to be just one of those evil,
evil people. We used to call it the work of
the devil, and I think he's going to turn out
to be just one lone evil man. Could this has
been prevented, No, I think Stephen Paddock was determined to
create a horrible incident of violence. He had the guns,
(41:07):
he had planned very carefully. Some reports have said he
had ammonium nitrate in his car. That says to me
he was going to carry out the fact one way
or another. Well, I would guarantee there have already been
changes on the Las Vegas strip. You know, Las Vegas
is a tightly regulated environment, and it works partly because
(41:29):
there is a sense of freedom and security. I think,
you know, a casino four in Las Vegas is probably
one of the safest places in the world. So I'm
sure that the casino owners, the businessman of Las Vegas,
and the state of Nevada will be working hard to
try to make the Vegas much more secure. Something that
they can do possibly may include some additional aerial surveillance.
(41:52):
Their technology is available for that. I'm sure that all
the casino owners are looking through their databases of people
that they keep track go because their guests and you know,
high rollers coming in. I think that those specialists in
security will be doing everything they can in Las Vegas
and other popular tourist destinations. I wouldn't be surprised to
see Atlantic City thinking about it. You know, even Florida,
(42:16):
some of the big destinations there. There's already a lot
of behind the scene security, and I think that's where
we'll see people really studying the lessons of Las Vegas
and moving forward to try to help crowds and gatherings
be safer in the future. You know, whatever you think
about Las Vegas, one lesson really stands out to me.
That is, there's nothing wrong with American culture. We don't
(42:39):
need to have a big discussion about American culture. This
was the act of one evil man. So there's nothing
wrong with American culture, and we're barking up the wrong
tree if we try to pursue it that way. This
podcast is not a political podcast. And we're not here
to settle the gun control debate. This is a podcast, however,
(43:01):
about the criminal justice system, and the tragedy in Las
Vegas was a crime. By way of background, I wanted
to clear up a common misconception about the Bill of Rights.
It's the first ten amendments to our Constitution. You see.
The Bill of Rights doesn't grant any particular right to anybody.
(43:22):
The Bill of Rights serves as a limit on the
power of the government versus the people. So what the
real issue in all of this discussion is to what
length does our government have the authority to regulate our rights,
including our Second Amendment rights. Surprisingly, there was not a
lot of case law from the U. S. Supreme Court
(43:43):
pertaining to the Second Amendment until two thousand and eight,
when the Court decided a case called District of Columbia
versus Heller. Before we get into Heller, it's important to
understand that when interpreting the Constitution, it's not what the
Constitution says that matters. It's what the Supreme Court says
that it means is what matters. The text of the
(44:03):
Second Amendment says a well regulated militia comma being necessary
to the security of a free state comma. The right
of the people to keep and bear arms comma shall
not be infringed, period. So DC versus Heller is a
landmark case where the U. S. Supreme Court decided on
June two thousand and eight by a five to four majority,
(44:26):
that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess
firearms and that right has nothing to do with serving
in any state militia. Further, it clarifies the right extends
to the use of firearms for traditionally lawful purposes, including
the ancient right of self defense. The Heller case started
because the District of Columbia, by local law, banned handgun
(44:49):
possession and made it a crime to carry an unregistered firearm,
and it also prohibited the registration of handguns altogether in
d C. D C law also said that no person
may carry an unlicensed handgun, but it authorizes the chief
of police to issue one year licenses. Additionally, it required
(45:10):
residents to keep lawfully owned firearms unloaded and disassembled or
bound by a trigger lock or a similar device. Heller
was a d C Special policeman. He applied to register
a handgun that he wished to keep it home, but
the district refused, so he filed a lawsuit in the
Federal Court in d C. On Second Amendment grounds, asking
(45:31):
the court to prohibit the city from enforcing these laws.
Up until this point, a lot of scholars and even
courts interpreted the Second Amendment to be limited by the
very first few words, which say a well regulated militia
being necessary to the security of a free state. But
the Supreme Court said in the Heller opinion that the
(45:52):
operative cause was the right of the people to keep
in bear arms shall not be infringed. And they said
that codifies individual right, a right that existed long before
the Constitution was written, and a right that exists in nature.
The Court said that the preamble, the part about a
well regulated militia was simply an expression of the framer's
(46:14):
belief that the most effective way to destroy a citizens
militia was to disarm the citizens, which is exactly what
the British attempted to do at the battles of Lexington
and Concord at the very beginning of the American Revolution.
Justice Scalia, writing the opinion in Heller, tells us, though,
that like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.
(46:37):
For example, there's not a right to keep and carry
any weapon or gun whatsoever, in any manner, whatsoever, or
for whatever purpose. Also, the court's opinions should not be
taken to cast doubt on long standing prohibitions on the
possession of firearms by felons or the mentally ill, or
laws forbidding the carrying of firearms and sensitive places such
(46:59):
as rules and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and
qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. As a rule,
rights do not require any government issued license for a
person to exercise that right, as opposed to a privilege.
Privileges are granted by the government unlike rights, so privileges
(47:19):
frequently do require a license, such as a license, for example,
to drive a car. So from a purely legal perspective,
what is the bottom line? Well, in light of the
Heller case, it's clear that while guns can be regulated
to a point, I can't think of any new law
or any new regulation that would have prevented the Las
(47:40):
Vegas massacre. I think it's also clear that the bump
stock device which the shooter used to increase his rate
of fire, could legally be outlawed tomorrow. But it's important
to remember the bump stock device is nothing more than
a commercially sold aftermarket device, and that device is not
needed for a shooter to achieve the same or similar
(48:02):
result using homemade means. The bottom line is that nobody
has a crystal ball. The future cannot be predicted. A
determined killer will find a way to kill, whether it
be with a gun, twenty guns, a box truck, a
homemade bomb, or whatever the evil mind can conceive. To
(48:23):
make the USA truly safe from gun violence, you have
to basically take away or get around somehow the Second Amendment. First,
Then you'd have to confiscate all of the guns, and
if you did that, you'd be violating the Fourth Amendment,
which protects citizens against unreasonable searches and seizures by the government.
Then you'd have to get around the due process clause
(48:43):
of the Fifth Amendment, and the list goes on and
on and on. By the time you're done, that really
wouldn't be much of a bill of rights left. And
that is what Justice Scalia, writing for the Court in Heller,
would call tyranny. And if that were to happen, the
only people who would have the guns would be the
folks in the government, and that is why the United
(49:06):
States exists today, because an armed citizenry took up arms
against an oppressive government when the British first tried to
confiscate guns at the battles of Lexington and Concord. As
of the time of this recording, there's no known motive
that can be attributed to the Las Vegas murder, and
(49:26):
so we really don't know if there was any intention
to influence any kind of policy. So was it terrorism
or was it just a lone mad men In the
absence of any evidence that the shooter was using this
violence to intimidate or coerce some type of policy change,
my belief is that it was simply the work of
(49:49):
a madman. But that's just my opinion. Many other people
have other thoughts about this. We know that the Islamic
State has claimed credit for it, but according to the FBI,
there's no credible evidence that this was actually related to
international Islamic terrorism. We extend our most sincere condolences to
(50:10):
the families of the victims in the Las Vegas massacre.
It is our sincere hope and wish that those injured
will recover as much and as fast as possible. We
hope that law enforcement can figure out just what motivated
this evil mind to commit this most heinous of atrocities,
(50:31):
so that they can better prepare in the future to
respond to any criminal act. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot
(50:53):
TV in Atlanta. Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason
Lindsay and Meredith Steadman and myself Philip Halloway executive producers
Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. And if you have it yet,
please check out our sister podcast, Up and Vantage, that
follows the investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High School
teacher and beauty queen Tara Grinstead. Up and Vantage is
(51:15):
available now on Apple Podcasts. Sworn is mixed and mastered
by Resonate Recordings. If you're in the market for podcast production,
go to Resonate Recordings dot com to get your first
episode produced for free. If you haven't already, please head
over to iTunes now to subscribe, rate, and review Sworn,
and make sure you check us out online at Sworn
(51:36):
podcast dot com and follow us on social media at
Sworn podcast on Twitter and Instagram, and you can follow
me your host, Philip Holloway at phil holloway e s
Q on Twitter. Thanks for listening. This is Philip Halloway
and I'll see you next time. On Sworn and Lundy
(52:03):
and Rusty was see I See Blood in the Water. Charming, charming,
See Blood in the Water.
You place your left hand on the bay and Bible
and raise your right hand and repeat after me. I
solemnly swear jury trying it attended this weekend in Ferguson
and around the country's resisting your It makes no sense
if it doesn't fit your must equip judge. You are
the last line of reason in this case. Every one
(00:31):
of us took it all the sas and we're scorn
to a poll of the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,
this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. This episode
is dedicated to the memory of the lives lost in
the October one mass murder in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's
(00:53):
also dedicated in honor of the first responders and Seville
and heroes who prevented this from being any more terrible
than it already was. The uncomfortable truth is that mass
murder has been around as long as human kind. We'll
explore the question of whether anything could have been done
to prevent this tragedy in Las Vegas, while we also
(01:15):
explore and break down the Second Amendment and what the
Supreme Court has told us that the Second Amendment means.
(01:38):
Joy six nine. We got shots fired for day and
bringing any one. So I'm like, I'm out a fire
up because that when you signed dammy shop, I'll start
generally me. I'll play off like a shot gun. I'll
play up Drols. We have a we have an acre room,
(02:11):
brave and the whole ward got the audience of the
thirty sickond floors. One has explosive breach everyone and know
how I need to lose it back. All units move back.
We need the air flare for Debra. Twenty one suspicked
down inside the room. Twenty one s picked down inside
the room. There's one down, thirty sick animal day. On
(02:47):
the night of October one, America experienced an unspeakable tragedy,
the largest mass shooting in modern US history and the
most fatal attack on our soil since September eleven, two
thousand one. A gunman named Stephen Paddock opened fire on
the audience at the Root Harvest Music Festival in Las Vegas, Nevada.
(03:11):
Our hearts go out to the friends and the families
of any and all of the victims. Our deepest condolences
are extended to those who lost their lives and the
loved ones they left behind, and our greatest hope is
for a swift and full recovery for everyone who was injured.
Up to this date, the US mass shooting with the
(03:31):
most fatalities was in Orlando, Florida, at the Pulse nightclub
in June of The shooter in that case was Omar Matene,
who killed forty nine people and wounded fifty eight at
the least. With mass shootings like the Las Vegas massacre
at the forefront of everyone's mind, I'd like to take
this opportunity to discuss the topical issues at hand. This
(03:53):
tragic incident has brought a lot of attention to the
ongoing political discussion of gun control laws and terrorism and
what can we do to protect ourselves in situations like this.
Of course, this podcast is not a political discussion, and
it's not our intention to make it one. But this
is also a real part of the criminal justice system,
and so it's relevant and appropriate for us to discuss
(04:16):
the issue of mass murder. So to tie this into
the greater theme of SWORN, I'll be discussing the issues
that have risen in the media since the Las Vegas massacre,
and I'll be discussing them through the lens of legality.
Would gun control laws helped prevent this situation from occurring?
How else would gun control laws affect us as a country.
(04:38):
Why isn't this labeled as domestic terrorism? Some people think
that it should be. However, federal law defines terrorism as
the use of violence to intimidate or coerce a government
or civilians to influence policy. So if this isn't that,
then what is it. Here's Sworn producer Meredith Steadman with
(05:00):
a more detailed look at the events of the tragedy
of October one in Las Vegas. The sadness surrounding the
events of October one has been inescapable. The Las Vegas
massacre has permeated our news outlets, as it should given
the devastating circumstances. Because there's been such constant coverage, it
(05:22):
can be hard to keep the facts straight. We wanted
to give you a brief overview of what information has
been disclosed. The perpetrator of this massacre was sixty four
year old Stephen Craig Paddock. Paddock, who lived in multiple
places throughout the course of his life, was currently a
resident of Mesquite, Nevada, about an hour from Las Vegas.
He was an accountant and a real estate investor, successful
(05:45):
enough to sustain his gambling hobby, which brought him to
Las Vegas fairly often. Paddock suggested that his girlfriend Mary
Lou Danley go to the Philippines two weeks before the
incident occurred. He bought her a plane ticket and later
wired her a thousand dollars. She said she had no
knowledge of his plans or of any mental health issues
that he may have been struggling with. Paddock's brother, Eric Paddock,
(06:10):
said the same. The massacre began just after ten pm
on Sunday night. From his room on the thirty second
floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort. Paddock opened fired into
the crowd at the Root Harvest Music Festival during the
set of country singer Jason al Dean. Paddock has smashed
out the window of his hotel room with a hammer.
(06:30):
Prior to shooting, Paddock placed cameras in and around his room,
one in the people in, two in the hallway to
monitor the hallways for security personnel. He had twenty three
rifles in the hotel room and one handgun. Twelve of
the firearms were altered with bump fire stocks, which allow
semi automatic rifles to function as fully automatic weapons. After
(06:54):
a search was conducted, nineteen more firearms were found in
Paddock's home, along with explosives in severn a thousand rounds
of ammunition. Ammonium nitrate, often used in homemade explosives, was
found in the trunk of his car. Paddock was found
dead in his room with a self inflicted gunshot wound
to the head. His motive is still undetermined. People were
(07:16):
killed in this incident, with over five dred injured. This
is now the largest mass shooting in modern UN's history,
surpassing the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando. Good afternoon, is
(07:39):
this Dr Wilki, Good after day and how are you today?
Doing great? How are you sir? Well? I think all
things are fine, looking forward to a nice week in
the weather. Would you mind starting by letting us know
just a little bit about who you are and identifying
yourself please? I served in the Atlanta area as the
chief of police of the City of Aca George up
in cop County for right at ten years twenty five
(08:00):
years total in the law enforcement field, before retiring six
years ago to go on exactly at Bob Jens University
I've be in Greenville, South Carolina about James Is as
a Christian College, and I teach in our criminal justice section,
graduate the FBI National Academy, hold a doctoral degree in
public administration from Baldosta State University. For most of my
(08:24):
time as a as a law enforcement officer, I also
served as a police firearms instructor. How long have you
been teaching firearms? How many years total teaching firearms? Probably
somewhere in excess of twenty five years, and in terms
of handling films, something excess of fifty years. Does that
include what's commonly referred to as assault rifles as well,
(08:47):
that misnomer that is given to platforms such as the
a R fifteen. Yes, I do handle those firearms and
have shot them and have instructed in them. How about
fully automatic weapons? I'm not certified and fully automatic weapons
handled a number of them, both in the civilian law
enforcement in the military context. I'm not actually certified to
(09:09):
teach that particular file. So we want to talk about
what happened in Las Vegas. I'm sure you've been following
the news, and one of the topics that I want
to talk about first is go back and explain why
you said the term assault rifle is a misnomer place
that term is applied to some way that we've made
(09:32):
in funt arms such as the ALE fifteen, the a
K four seven similar firearms like that that are long
rifles that have a magazine capacity, usually in excess of
ten rounds in the magazine. That's worthing. The term assault
rifle really essentially showed about nowhere as far as I'm concerned,
(09:52):
is a essentially a media term that has been handled
and given to a number of different firms platforms such
as the a R fifteen, a K forty seven, and
other rifles that will handle magazines that have capacity of
more than ten rounds or so your average hunting rifle
(10:13):
magazine on the hulls somewhere around three to five rounds,
depending on what the state allows for hunting purposes. Pretty
much anything over that, the media has just started calling
them assault lines, which is I don't think really an
appropriate term now. As a civilian and as a firearms
instructor and as an advocate frankly for the Second Amendment,
(10:34):
I think that there's the question that if you begin
to limit the types of access that civilians in this
country can have to firearms to an a K forty seven.
That's the camel sticking its nose under the proverbial tent.
And you just have a whole population that just does
not trust where the government will stop on that sort
(10:55):
of thing. And I think that the answer is not
to go after the gun. The answer is to go
after the violin. And if you have people in this
country who commit crimes while they are armed, that's where
our most serious penalties need to be, and to take people,
put them in jail and leave them in jail if
they committed a crime and had a firearm on their person.
(11:18):
In the middle nineteen nineties, we began incarcerating people seriously
in this country who had committed serious felts and we
took them out of the pool of being able to
commit additional crimes. And since the middle nineteen nineties, across
the country, violent crime has plummeted because we are taking
the repeat offenders out of circulation. They couldn't do their
(11:41):
crimes anymore. We put them in jail, We put them
in a place where they cannot harm people. In South
Carolina alone, since ninet, violent crime has dropped over and
that statistic is fairly well mirrored across the country. That
gives us a pretty good answer right there. Take the
people who couldmit gun crime, put them in jail, and
(12:03):
leave them in jail. And I commented to this group
that to date to that day, a couple of weeks ago,
the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando ranked as the highest
mass shooting that we had in the United States. But
I told that as I said, but don't worry. There's
someone out there right now who was thinking about the
Fulse nightclub shooting and saying to themselves, I'm going to
(12:26):
go set the new record and long behold. Two weeks
or so after I made that statement, someone comes along
and does what this individual did and killing all of
those people. When the Second Amendment was drafted and adopted,
basically they were dealing with muskets, and obviously an air
fifteen is much more powerful than a musket. So back
in that day, you know, if they wanted to, they
(12:47):
could afford one. They could own a cannon out in
the backyard instead of shooting skip that's our cannonballs if
they wanted to. I'm saying that someone is just, but
I'm also seeing it to make a point exactly what
the militaries have in terms of their firepower and their weapons.
This is exactly what the civilians were entitled to have
under the Second Amendment. It would be not that difficult
(13:10):
to take a semi automatic firearm of any nature and
converted into an automatic firearm. It would not be that
terribly difficult to do that with anything, which when you
stop and think about that, if that's what happened, and
I don't know that that's what happened, all the details
not at yet, but if that's what happened with demand
(13:32):
few is responsible for shooting all those people in Las Vegas,
then he already demonstrated going to break the law to
do what he did. What law can we pass that
would have stopped that? Well? As us needed. The District
of Columbia as a model policy and model city ordinance
that prevents the distribution and ownership firearms and restricts them
(13:55):
and so forth. And that's why the District of Columbia
has one of the lowest Oh wait a minute, no,
it don't. The District of Columbia, even with their stringent
laws that were founded in a constitutional has one of
the highest NERD routes for Capola in the country, so
let's go out to it. How about the city of Chicago.
They have some pretty good ordinance there. They're restrictive on
gun possession and ship and that's why they have some
(14:17):
of the lowest crime rates and the nerd Wait, wait, no,
they don't. They have some of the highest actions of
gun violence and murder in the country. I'm not sure
that we can come up with the law because of
those that we have on the bucks have not been
factored in deterring gun violence. And that's why I'm contending,
you know, the focus ought to be on the offender,
(14:38):
not on the firelar. You do any kind of crime
with a gun, then you have demonstrated a willingness to
use that gun and kill somebody. The mere fact that
you have it with you when you're committing a crime
shows that you're willing to use it. Maybe you didn't
use it when you robbed that bank. Maybe you can't
shoot anybody, but you had it with you. And you
(14:59):
know why, as a society, we are not going to
give you that chance again. We're gonna take you and
put you in jail, put the rest of your natural life.
What would you advise people to do in the event
of an active shooter if they find themselves, you know,
in a situation like we saw in Las Vegas. There
are a number of different training systems that are out there,
but most of them come down around three fundamental things
(15:21):
that an individual should do if they find themselves subject
to an active shooter. And the number one thing that
is recommended by in the training systems and I think
by law enforcement as well, this is on the FBI website,
is to run, at the minimum, create a moving target.
It's hard hit one that is moving than it is
to quiet wom that is just simply standing there. But
(15:44):
get out of there, run as fast as you can
and remove yourself from the scene. That's the number one
recommendation from all circles. Secondly, if you cannot run, perhaps
the shooter is somehow between you and you and an
egress from the building, your point of exit from the building.
If you cannot run, then you hide, hide under something,
(16:07):
Barricade yourself in a room, lock the doors, turn out
the lights, get furniture in front of the door, making
yourself as a flat on the floor as you can't,
and be absolutely silent and hide because maybe as the
shooter moves to the building looking for victims. Maybe he'll
miss you because you are well hidden. But then failing
(16:29):
that you can't run and you can't hide, or perhaps
the shoot find you. Your last option is to fight,
and by fighting, that means you offer everything you've got
to try to stop that shooter from killing you or
injuring you or someone else. At that point, it's your
life against the life of the person who's a sailing
and you throw everything you possibly have at that individual
(16:52):
to stop them. If you happen to be an armed citizen,
you know, someone who is authorized by your perspective state
to carry your fireing on your person, if you have
the opportunity to engage that individual with that firearm, then
you would certainly do so to try to protect yourself
and others. That's not something you want to do in
the middle of your church congregation with six hundred people
(17:13):
standing around, or as Philip and I've talked about in
the past, and you know, maybe crowded movie theaters or
places like that, that just limits your options because you
cannot go shooting in there, you know, and take a
chance on on missing and hitting an innocent person. You
fight for your life because your life is on the line.
You cannot legislate evil into non existence. Let's be clear
(17:37):
about one thing. Sworn is not a political podcast, but
we cannot forget that there are lots of people whose
opinions differ from Mike Wilkis. On the other side of
his argument. There are also those who believe that gun
restriction is truly the only way to see a definitive
decrease in these tragedies. For a differing viewpoint, we talked
(17:58):
to Antoine Seawright, a Democratic strategist who, like Mike Wilkie,
is from South Carolina. So just to give your background,
I'm a political consultant and one of my clients was
killed in a church two years ago here in South
Carolina is the state Senator Clemente Pinkney. And I don't
know if you remember when Dylan Ruth, the white terrorists
who killed nine people in the church here in South Carolina.
(18:22):
Clemented the past of the church was my client. It's
a simple thing we called the Charleston loophole. His background
check in the time period did not come back, but
they still sold him the gun. And so had there
been a law in place that says, look if the
background check does not come back within three days, then
you can't purchase a gun. Then perhaps he never would
have been able to have a gun to shoot nine people.
(18:44):
So my name is Antoine ce Right. I own a
public relations, advertising and political strategy firm called Blueprint Strategy,
is based here in Columbia, South Carolina. I've done from
a pain perspective. I've probably been involved in well over
a hundred and fifty campaigns and well over a hundred
(19:07):
ballot initiatives represent a number of political entities as well
as elected officials, from members of you guys Congress on
down to dog Catcher. I also am on Fox News
on occasion to provide some political commentary, and I have
a radio show. Can we just go straight into it
(19:29):
and have you explained to us your standpoint on gun
control us. Well, first of all, let me just say
my thoughts and prayers are with the families and the
community of Las Vegas, because when one of our brothers
and sisters in this country are hurting or have feel
some sort of pain, I think we all hurt. And
it's very tragic. What happened one of the largest killings
(19:51):
on record, and I call the massacre is very unfortunate
that the person who shot and kill these people and
injured so many others has not been labeled as a
domestic terrorist. There's another shooting, and here we are having
another conversation about gun laws. Yet some of my Republican
friends and Republican leaders say, as soon as these things happened,
(20:12):
not the time. Well we've had almost a week now
in between the incident and we still have not had
a legislative conversation about gun control laws. And one could
argue that, oh, well, we don't need more gun control laws.
We just need to pray for our country, or we
just need to deal with the people who have been
(20:34):
committing these crimes because they have mental issues, and we
can keep making excuses. But the more excuses we make,
the more people literally will die on American soul, not
by anyone from any country that Mr Trump proposes Muslim
band form, but these are homegrown American terrorists. So with
Las Vegas specifically, do you think that it could have
(20:57):
been prevented? Absolutely, But we have learned so far is
that one perhaps change in the law to deal with
bump stocks could have perhaps prevented this is happening. We
also spoke with Kim Alfano, a parent and GOP strategist.
She told us about a personal experience with a shooting
(21:19):
close to her daughter's school. Even as a representative of
the Republican Party and their candidates, she believes that there
are some modifications that could be made to existing gun
laws that might increase everyone's safety. I'm Kim Alfano. I
own a political media consulting firm on the Republican side
for twenty seven years now. I also worked in education
(21:42):
advocacy and education reform advocacy, criminal justice reform advocacy, and
do some types of things like that on the side
versus just candidate work and raise my daughter. Speaking of
your daughter, could you tell that story and then kind
of tied into your thoughts on gun control? When might
it was in first grade? It was shortly after Sandy Hook.
(22:03):
We lived in downtown Alexandria, Virginia, right outside DC. She
went to an adorable little public school. They were outside
playing on playground, and the playground is kind of It's
a very pedestrian city. It's not, you know, like being
in downtown New York. But it's also not like being
in the suburbs where the schools are kind of off
in a field. There are people walking by at all
(22:23):
times and cars and things, and their playgrounds sort of
fenced in by three sides, and the kindergarten and first
graders were all out on the playground at that moment,
and she happened to be back by the back part
of the fence that sort of faced the neighborhood street
and was playing on the swings and there was a
guy who had committed some crimes and was I guess
(22:44):
he was walking through the streets of Alexandria. Basically officer
little boy whose children had gone to Belas School, so
he was very familiar to the kids at the school.
He happened to pull this guy over and he walked
up to the car. He didn't realize this guy had
committed a crime. He wasn't looking for him. I think
he pulled him over for a traffic violation and the
(23:07):
guy had pulled out a gun and shot him point
blank in the head. And he was on the other
side of the car from the kids. You know, there
was basically the road the sidewalk, and the kids are
inside the fence, so some of the kids were right
up against the fence he was luckily on the other
side of the car, so they didn't see everything go down.
But basically, you know, my daughter said she heard pops
(23:29):
because she had her back to it. She was swinging
on the swings, and some of the kids said they
heard something, you know, heard like a bag thud. So
basically it was the officer falling down like some really
smart teachers heard it, realized what was going on, grabbed
all the kids. They all were brought inside. They were
locked down in the gym. Again, this is right after
Sandy Hook, so everybody was completely on edge anyway, locked
(23:52):
him down, They did the drill where they all had
to sit in the gym, and then there was an
email sent out to parents, Hey, we're locked down. Here's
the situation as we know it. And then probably about
thirty five minutes later, they realized it was an isolated incident.
They had gone to catch the guy. He fled. The
metic Metavac helicopter landed in the schoolyard to take the
police officer off to the hospital, and the kids were
(24:14):
out of their sort of Jim lockdown by then, so
a lot of them looked out the window and saw
that happening. They kind of didn't, you know, since such
little grades it's in elementary school, they didn't really tell
him what was going on, but a lot of kids
sort of pieced it together, and then about o'clock we
were alligable back in the level. I know hunters, I
know clients who are staunch advocates of the Second Amendment,
(24:38):
and I understand why they are, and I know them
to be good people. So I had never been a
huge advocate one way or another on it. But I
was never such an anti gun person. I know so
many responsible people who have guns, but when that happened,
I was terrified. Now, my my thoughts didn't run towards
why does that guy have a gun? Because it was
a you know, a gun that was it's common, It
(25:01):
wasn't a machine gun. He didn't shoot up the school,
he didn't do anything. But just how can this stuff
happen right near my kid? You know, what's the world
coming to? Where the suburbs and the Bucolic you know,
rolling hills of our neighborhoods are now kind of up
for grabs. In the case of Oklahoma City, in the
case of this guy that shot officer lit boy, in
(25:21):
the case of Sandy Hook, it was all mental health.
There are people out there that are hurting, that are
not getting help, and they go down these rabbit holes
and do not come out, and we have tragedies as
a result. I know, the guy in Las Vegas, there
wasn't any indicator that anything that that would have popped
on a background check, on mental health background check, but
clearly he's mentally unstable because he shot up a lunch
(25:45):
of people. So I think stronger mental health, stronger education
about spotting and understanding when people are in difficult situations,
you know, with the opioid crisis, you know, mental health
and addiction counseling, all of that, I think is how
you answer this. It's not necessarily a gun law because
(26:06):
of the people who own all those guns. Everybody's freaked
out about don't commit crimes. You know, we hear about
these outrageous, sensationalized ones. But in you know, Illinois and
Chicago where there's horrifying gun violence, it's happening with illegal guns,
and they have strict gun laws. So gun laws don't
prevent gun crime. It's criminals and the unstable people using guns.
(26:31):
About Oklahoma City, somebody with a car and some fertilizer
killed three times as many people as occurred in you know,
Las Vegas. Not to diminish what happened in Las Vegas,
but anyone with evil intent, where an unstable mind will
find a way to create a weapon. So solving this
or that issue. Obviously, bump stocks need to be addressed.
(26:52):
Nobody wants people out there with automatic weapons. And there's
some pretty common sense things, but you're not getting to
the underlying cause. How do you think we become more
proactive in addressing mental health issues? Where does that come
in in play when trying to purchase a firearm? I
just knee jerk reaction, as a mom would be. There
needs to be some sort of element of the background
(27:15):
check that allows for part of the process of get
I mean, if I want to be a daycare worker,
you do a mental health check on me, right, So
if I'm gonna have a gun, you should be able
to do a mental health check. I mean, now to
keep that record. I get how gun rights advocates are saying, no,
you can't build a database of those of us with issues,
(27:35):
So the record goes away, just like the background check
goes away. It doesn't get stored anywhere it doesn't get kept.
There's gotta be a way to at least screen out
the low hanging fruit of people who have been in
mental health treatment before, or who have been cited for
domestic violence, or who have been cited for any number
of things. Like I said, I work on education reform issues,
(27:58):
and I work on criminal justice for warm issues. Weal
there's two places right there that nip issues in the butt.
Kids that are caught in horrible cycles of poverty and
dependence and lack of a good education, so there's no
way for them to get out of that cycle. Those
are kids that are gonna get sucked in the neighborhoods
and become drug dealers. Those are kids that are going
(28:19):
to become parts of gangs, that are going to become
parts of violence. Let's give them the opportunity to get
out of those situations and break that cycle for their family.
And so the kid that's nineteen that gets picked up
because he has you know, drug paraphernali in his car
and goes to prison for five years or eighteen months
or whatever it is, is in a prison for eighteen
months with a career professional drug dealer who could teach
(28:43):
them how to cook meth, And who's going to indoctrinate
him into a gang in those eighteen months, And who's
going to get them in the into a cycle where
someone had given him drug addiction treatment. Send him to
a boot camp. That kid might turn around and have
a productive life. So another place to sort of hide
and help you bowl just your criminal justice reform. Instead
of putting them into the system. Let's find ways and
(29:04):
treatments and and put some government money into helping people
with addictions and with mental health issues. I'm not sure
there's a gun law that we could have passed in
the wake of that that next day. And I think
anyone Republican Democrat, if you had a heart in your chest,
if someone said this is something that would stop this
from ever happening again, gun rights advocate or not, you
(29:25):
would have said, let's do it. But I don't think
that there was any one thing that anyone could point
to that would have said this will never happen again.
I don't know what the answer is, but I'm not
sure the answer is to say, you hunter in New
Hampshire can't have a gun, you know, I mean, after
all these truck deaths and like we saw in Charlotte.
So do what you say. You can't have cars? I mean,
(29:48):
how do you address the underlying problem by just focusing
on the equipment. Mason stopped by a local firearms store
to walk us through the steps of buying a gun.
If I were to come in here, I'm gonna a
bunch of the stools, shotguns, see a RS on the wall.
What process would it be for me to buy again?
(30:09):
All right? So, first and foremost, if you even want
to come in here and hold a gun, you got
the eighteen for a long rifle. You gotta twenty one
for handguns. Check your i D. Make sure you got
valid driver's license, carry permits something. If you have no
government issued i D with that current address, I can't
even let you do that. If you want to actually
buy something, you gotta at least have a valid driver's license.
(30:31):
You've got to be of age, and you've gotta have
a current address on your government achieve documentation, so you
know if you have a driver's license INSE valid. Even
if you got a carry permit, if nothing's got your
current address on it, I can't sell you anything. Once
you've got all that, all that checks out. We gotta
sit you down and do some seventy three paperwork which
basically fill out you know, your name, place of birth, address,
(30:54):
all the kind of pertinent information. Are you the actual
buyer of the gun? Where you ever unlawfully and are
you wanted for a felony or you a fugitive from
justice where you ever dishonorably discharged. All that kind of
stuff will disqualify you just like that. On top of that,
if you don't have a carry permit, we have to
run a background check on you. And if that doesn't
come back, you can either get delayed or denied, and
(31:16):
you can you can just get let go, depending on
how the background check goes. But that's the part that
kills a lot of sales is someone will come in
put their background check in, it will get sent to
the FBI, and the FBI I'll be like, don't do
it right. You mentioned age, So what age is it
to buy a firearm. There's certain type of firearms I
can or cannot buy a certain age. At eighteen years old,
(31:39):
you can buy long rifles and shotguns. At years old
you can buy handguns. And that's pretty much it for age.
So in eighteen year old with the proper identification and
checks out coming here and buy an a R. The
problem in an eighteen year old would have to come in,
have their proper identification and have I do with their
(32:01):
current address and everything, have their background check go smoothly,
no problems, no delays, no hold ups. If everything went perfectly,
we could have them out here the same day. But
that's provided everything went perfectly. We as the sales people,
have the ultimate authority to cancel any sale. We don't
necessarily have to have a reason. It can be I'm
getting a bad vibe from this situation, I don't want
(32:23):
to sell this. We don't have to. We can go
to a manager and to be like, look, we're not
doing this. The big, huge red flags, some of the
really obvious ones are if somebody comes into the store
and gives money to somebody else and that person is
buying the gun. So as a as a gun a salesman,
you would say, how do you advise to do the
(32:44):
best sale to make sure you're putting a gun in
the right person's hands. As a gun salesman, it's pretty
much just gauge whether the person knows what they're talking about,
if they seem inexperienced, if they don't seem to really
know what they're doing. They're like, have you ever shot
a gun before? Do you have much practice? Do you
go to the range very often? And if the answers
to any of those questions are, hey, no, I don't
really know what I'm doing. You know, Georgia Firing Line
(33:05):
is right down the road. They're building a complex right
across the street. There's Wild West Traders in Austell. No
matter where people are coming from, I can generally say,
there's a range near you, and they offer rental guns,
so go out there rent a gun. You know, they
offer safety courses as well. Like my dad works over
a while West Traders in Austell and he teaches safety
(33:25):
courses there. So I can say, hey, sit down with
these people and now at least give you a rundown
of what you need to know. But here it's like, look,
we're selling guns, so we have to make sure it's
done safely, that we go through the proper channels, and
that we avoid any bad situations. Mason asked if it
is anywhere difficult to bind a R versus afore ten.
(33:45):
The man said, besides cost, no, you just need to
be a teen. To give some perspective, in this country,
you have to be twenty one to drink, but at
eighteen you can walk around with an air in public.
Even with current regulations, it turns out it is pretty
easy to purchase. Again, probably easier than it should be.
One debate that has surfaced since the massacre in Las
Vegas is what do we label this? Is this an
(34:08):
act of terrorism domestic terrorism? What exactly is the difference.
We discussed this topic and more with Rebecca Grant, highly
experienced national security and military analyst. My name is Rebecca Grant.
I have a PhD and international relations. I'm a national
security analyst and defense consultants here in Washington, d C.
(34:28):
After an incident like this, the first question in people's
minds could there be any link to known terrorist groups?
So one of the first questions is they begin to
identify a perpetrator is to look and see in this case,
were there any links to ISAIS a lot of confusion
occurred when ISIS decided to take advantage and claim that
(34:51):
they had been responsible in some way for this event.
There's done no corroboration of that. That was just the
terrorist being very very opportunistic. So right now we have
not heard of any ties between Haddock and a designated
terrorist group, or at least a designated international terrorist group.
(35:14):
And the crazy thing was that ISAIS had issued one
of its periodic warnings a few days before this took place,
saying that citizens in big cities of the world Paris,
Los Angeles, etcetera. Should really take cover and not go
out in public. So that non specific warning had popped up,
(35:34):
and I think for some people there was an immediate
question of, oh my gosh, was this link? Was there
a warning? And then was this the link? You know.
The other thing that was terribly similar, of course, was
the attack in Las Vegas and the attacks several months
earlier this year in Manchester where we saw a concert
as of target. So I think there were enough superficial
(35:58):
similarities to raise but right now we're just not seeing
anything that definitively links Paddock to a radical Islamic group
of any kind. The main definition of terrorism is a
lawful force and violence terrorist act, but it has to
(36:18):
have a purpose to it to intimidate or coerce the
government or the civilian population or any segment thereof. So
we think of terrorism as part of a cause very evil,
very bad, but that it has to have this political
objective attached to it. So under the strict definition, it
(36:41):
doesn't look like the Las Vegas incident is an act
of terrorism strictly defined. Now, does that mean it's not
horrible and terrifying? Oh my gosh, it was absolutely terrifying.
The Las Vegas shooting doesn't meet the strict definition of
terrorism because there's not that political element to it. So
the Las Vegas shooter fits a little bit better into
(37:04):
a kind of a subcategory of domestic terrorists. And to me,
they would include people like Eric Rudolph with the bombings,
individuals who are carrying out horrible acts of violence but
without that attachment to an international group or a big
(37:25):
political movement. Now, our government has tracked what we sometimes
call homegrown terrorists for a long time, you know. Another
big example, of course, is Timothy McVey in the Oklahoma
City bombings, which were very, very tragic. In some cases,
these individuals have a political agenda of their own, They've
(37:47):
made statements in some cases they have it. So these
lone wolf domestic terrorists are particularly hard to track unless
they meet some of the profile criteria that look for.
We've been using a set of profile criteria to watch
kind of homegrowner domestic terrorist candidates for quite a long time.
(38:09):
But when like Stephen Paddock, they really don't fit that profile,
it's hard to figure out what they're up to, and
it's hard to really know how to classify the terrible
deeds that they've done. For many years now, part of
the study of terrorism has been to try to figure
out why individuals decide to commit these acts of terror,
and in that study, there is extensive study of people
(38:31):
within the United States who meet a certain profile. The
typical profile and you'll find us in any of the
academic literature would be someone who has had access to firearms,
someone who's had military training, someone who lives in isolated life,
someone who may have had relatives or close associates involved
(38:54):
in terrorist acts or incarcerated. Their number of profile elements
that have been used for many years to try to
spotlight individuals within certain social groups in the US who
may be heading towards committing an act of violence. I
think the profile has been pretty useful in helping law
(39:15):
enforcement keep watch. Particularly let's say if you have a
radical group, you know radicals of Maryland. What was so
tragic and heartbreaking with the Las Vegas shooter was he
really didn't meet any of that profile that has been
helpful in the past. He was older, he was financially
well off, and there was nothing in his background that
(39:38):
was going to trip this profile. He owned a lot
of guns, which means he had passed multiple background checks,
and what is so scary about him was that he
didn't match that profile which has been new successfully in
other cases. Like everyone else, I'm desperate to find a
reason why this happened, and we want to find a
(39:58):
reason so we can work to prevent it in the future.
When we don't have that reason, I think it's doubly painful.
Not only is it a senseless act, but we don't
know what steps we might be able to take in
the future to make sure things like this don't happen again.
So my view is that unless we get more evidence
that hasn't come forth yet. You know, he wanted to
(40:19):
go out in a blaze of glory. It was very
personal to him. Some have said he had become mentally
ill over time. There may be an element there, but
he's going to turn out to be just a unique
force of evil that sprang up and committed this terrible act.
I don't see connection to a terrorist group. I don't
think that his horrible act means that there's something wrong
(40:44):
with our country or with American culture in general. He's
going to turn out to be just one of those evil,
evil people. We used to call it the work of
the devil, and I think he's going to turn out
to be just one lone evil man. Could this has
been prevented, No, I think Stephen Paddock was determined to
create a horrible incident of violence. He had the guns,
(41:07):
he had planned very carefully. Some reports have said he
had ammonium nitrate in his car. That says to me
he was going to carry out the fact one way
or another. Well, I would guarantee there have already been
changes on the Las Vegas strip. You know, Las Vegas
is a tightly regulated environment, and it works partly because
(41:29):
there is a sense of freedom and security. I think,
you know, a casino four in Las Vegas is probably
one of the safest places in the world. So I'm
sure that the casino owners, the businessman of Las Vegas,
and the state of Nevada will be working hard to
try to make the Vegas much more secure. Something that
they can do possibly may include some additional aerial surveillance.
(41:52):
Their technology is available for that. I'm sure that all
the casino owners are looking through their databases of people
that they keep track go because their guests and you know,
high rollers coming in. I think that those specialists in
security will be doing everything they can in Las Vegas
and other popular tourist destinations. I wouldn't be surprised to
see Atlantic City thinking about it. You know, even Florida,
(42:16):
some of the big destinations there. There's already a lot
of behind the scene security, and I think that's where
we'll see people really studying the lessons of Las Vegas
and moving forward to try to help crowds and gatherings
be safer in the future. You know, whatever you think
about Las Vegas, one lesson really stands out to me.
That is, there's nothing wrong with American culture. We don't
(42:39):
need to have a big discussion about American culture. This
was the act of one evil man. So there's nothing
wrong with American culture, and we're barking up the wrong
tree if we try to pursue it that way. This
podcast is not a political podcast. And we're not here
to settle the gun control debate. This is a podcast, however,
(43:01):
about the criminal justice system, and the tragedy in Las
Vegas was a crime. By way of background, I wanted
to clear up a common misconception about the Bill of Rights.
It's the first ten amendments to our Constitution. You see.
The Bill of Rights doesn't grant any particular right to anybody.
(43:22):
The Bill of Rights serves as a limit on the
power of the government versus the people. So what the
real issue in all of this discussion is to what
length does our government have the authority to regulate our rights,
including our Second Amendment rights. Surprisingly, there was not a
lot of case law from the U. S. Supreme Court
(43:43):
pertaining to the Second Amendment until two thousand and eight,
when the Court decided a case called District of Columbia
versus Heller. Before we get into Heller, it's important to
understand that when interpreting the Constitution, it's not what the
Constitution says that matters. It's what the Supreme Court says
that it means is what matters. The text of the
(44:03):
Second Amendment says a well regulated militia comma being necessary
to the security of a free state comma. The right
of the people to keep and bear arms comma shall
not be infringed, period. So DC versus Heller is a
landmark case where the U. S. Supreme Court decided on
June two thousand and eight by a five to four majority,
(44:26):
that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess
firearms and that right has nothing to do with serving
in any state militia. Further, it clarifies the right extends
to the use of firearms for traditionally lawful purposes, including
the ancient right of self defense. The Heller case started
because the District of Columbia, by local law, banned handgun
(44:49):
possession and made it a crime to carry an unregistered firearm,
and it also prohibited the registration of handguns altogether in
d C. D C law also said that no person
may carry an unlicensed handgun, but it authorizes the chief
of police to issue one year licenses. Additionally, it required
(45:10):
residents to keep lawfully owned firearms unloaded and disassembled or
bound by a trigger lock or a similar device. Heller
was a d C Special policeman. He applied to register
a handgun that he wished to keep it home, but
the district refused, so he filed a lawsuit in the
Federal Court in d C. On Second Amendment grounds, asking
(45:31):
the court to prohibit the city from enforcing these laws.
Up until this point, a lot of scholars and even
courts interpreted the Second Amendment to be limited by the
very first few words, which say a well regulated militia
being necessary to the security of a free state. But
the Supreme Court said in the Heller opinion that the
(45:52):
operative cause was the right of the people to keep
in bear arms shall not be infringed. And they said
that codifies individual right, a right that existed long before
the Constitution was written, and a right that exists in nature.
The Court said that the preamble, the part about a
well regulated militia was simply an expression of the framer's
(46:14):
belief that the most effective way to destroy a citizens
militia was to disarm the citizens, which is exactly what
the British attempted to do at the battles of Lexington
and Concord at the very beginning of the American Revolution.
Justice Scalia, writing the opinion in Heller, tells us, though,
that like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.
(46:37):
For example, there's not a right to keep and carry
any weapon or gun whatsoever, in any manner, whatsoever, or
for whatever purpose. Also, the court's opinions should not be
taken to cast doubt on long standing prohibitions on the
possession of firearms by felons or the mentally ill, or
laws forbidding the carrying of firearms and sensitive places such
(46:59):
as rules and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and
qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. As a rule,
rights do not require any government issued license for a
person to exercise that right, as opposed to a privilege.
Privileges are granted by the government unlike rights, so privileges
(47:19):
frequently do require a license, such as a license, for example,
to drive a car. So from a purely legal perspective,
what is the bottom line? Well, in light of the
Heller case, it's clear that while guns can be regulated
to a point, I can't think of any new law
or any new regulation that would have prevented the Las
(47:40):
Vegas massacre. I think it's also clear that the bump
stock device which the shooter used to increase his rate
of fire, could legally be outlawed tomorrow. But it's important
to remember the bump stock device is nothing more than
a commercially sold aftermarket device, and that device is not
needed for a shooter to achieve the same or similar
(48:02):
result using homemade means. The bottom line is that nobody
has a crystal ball. The future cannot be predicted. A
determined killer will find a way to kill, whether it
be with a gun, twenty guns, a box truck, a
homemade bomb, or whatever the evil mind can conceive. To
(48:23):
make the USA truly safe from gun violence, you have
to basically take away or get around somehow the Second Amendment. First,
Then you'd have to confiscate all of the guns, and
if you did that, you'd be violating the Fourth Amendment,
which protects citizens against unreasonable searches and seizures by the government.
Then you'd have to get around the due process clause
(48:43):
of the Fifth Amendment, and the list goes on and
on and on. By the time you're done, that really
wouldn't be much of a bill of rights left. And
that is what Justice Scalia, writing for the Court in Heller,
would call tyranny. And if that were to happen, the
only people who would have the guns would be the
folks in the government, and that is why the United
(49:06):
States exists today, because an armed citizenry took up arms
against an oppressive government when the British first tried to
confiscate guns at the battles of Lexington and Concord. As
of the time of this recording, there's no known motive
that can be attributed to the Las Vegas murder, and
(49:26):
so we really don't know if there was any intention
to influence any kind of policy. So was it terrorism
or was it just a lone mad men In the
absence of any evidence that the shooter was using this
violence to intimidate or coerce some type of policy change,
my belief is that it was simply the work of
(49:49):
a madman. But that's just my opinion. Many other people
have other thoughts about this. We know that the Islamic
State has claimed credit for it, but according to the FBI,
there's no credible evidence that this was actually related to
international Islamic terrorism. We extend our most sincere condolences to
(50:10):
the families of the victims in the Las Vegas massacre.
It is our sincere hope and wish that those injured
will recover as much and as fast as possible. We
hope that law enforcement can figure out just what motivated
this evil mind to commit this most heinous of atrocities,
(50:31):
so that they can better prepare in the future to
respond to any criminal act. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot
(50:53):
TV in Atlanta. Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason
Lindsay and Meredith Steadman and myself Philip Halloway executive producers
Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. And if you have it yet,
please check out our sister podcast, Up and Vantage, that
follows the investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High School
teacher and beauty queen Tara Grinstead. Up and Vantage is
(51:15):
available now on Apple Podcasts. Sworn is mixed and mastered
by Resonate Recordings. If you're in the market for podcast production,
go to Resonate Recordings dot com to get your first
episode produced for free. If you haven't already, please head
over to iTunes now to subscribe, rate, and review Sworn,
and make sure you check us out online at Sworn
(51:36):
podcast dot com and follow us on social media at
Sworn podcast on Twitter and Instagram, and you can follow
me your host, Philip Holloway at phil holloway e s
Q on Twitter. Thanks for listening. This is Philip Halloway
and I'll see you next time. On Sworn and Lundy
(52:03):
and Rusty was see I See Blood in the Water. Charming, charming,
See Blood in the Water.
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