June 15, 2025 • 31 mins
In this classic replay of Music Saved Me with Lynn Hoffman, she is joined by composer, pianist, vocalist Samora Pinderhughes. He is known for his innovative and socially conscious approach to music and multi-media creation and they discuss how he uses his art to delve into sociopolitical issues and advocate for social change. If you are a listener of this podcast, we invite you to explore how Samora's work moves from "protest to healing."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Music Saved Me.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
How can I look at music through conversation, through the
music of just somebody talking regular and just how they
would and what does that reveal about the relationships to
these very difficult things that they've gone through as a
result of societal oppression and the prison industrial complex and
all these things.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I'm Lynn Hoffman and welcome to the Music Saved Me Podcast,
the show where we dig deep into the impactful stories
about the power of music. Please follow us and share
with your friends if you don't mind, and thank you
for that. On this episode, Emmy Award winning composer, lyricist, vocalist, filmmaker,
social political activist, and scholar who, by the way, is
(00:42):
working on his PhD. Just your typical underachiever, Soamora Pinther
Hughes discusses his new work and his views on the
force of nature as we know as music Sommora. Welcome
to Music Saved Me. It's so nice to have you here.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you so much. It's an honor to be on
the program.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's very fun.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And interestingly enough, my sister or brother program is called
taking a Walk with Buzz Night, which you are doing
while we're talking right now. I'd like to let the
listeners know it's a beautiful day in October. So we
couldn't keep him from just sitting in a studio. You
had to you had to go walk about.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yes, indeed, yeah, you know, this is my mental health practice.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And it's a good one.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
You have such a unique musical background, starting off as
a jazz pianist studying at the renowned Juilliard. Can you
tell us how and when you first became attached to music.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, I've been playing my whole life. I actually started
at age two, and I was in preschool. Wow, and
I had somebody came to a musician named Jacqueline Rago.
She became. She came to preschool and was like going
around to all the people, all the kids, you know,
playing some pieces. And I was just following her around
(01:59):
like the whole school. And so after that day she
went to my parents and was like, your kid wouldn't
leave me alone. So clearly he's into this music thing.
And she was my first teacher. She really, you know,
took me under her wing and kind of just brought
me into the community of the music that she was
(02:20):
a part of, which was venezuela and traditional music. That's
what I started playing, and then I went to keeping music,
then the jazz, and then I was I was kind
of off and running by then, and I never stopped.
So it's been, you know, the longest relationship I've ever
had in my life, besides you know, with my parents,
and you know, just something that I don't even really
(02:43):
I've never experienced life without it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Your project, The Healing Project, explores themes of incarceration and
violence and policing. What was the inspiration that caused you
to want to tackle all of these sort of difficult
issues and subjects true music.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I always, you know, kind of had a desire to
use music and art to you know, speak to the
things that matter to me and in the society. And
the artists that always inspired me the most were those
kind of artists. And I also, I have always been
(03:21):
interested in language, even though I started it off with
the drums and the piano, and I wasn't a vocalist
till much later, but I was always still very interested
in language and the music of language and sound, which
is a strange kind of I guess entry point into
language because a lot of people don't think about sound
when they think about speaking, which is which is interesting
(03:44):
to me, but we just never talk about it. So yeah,
for me, I just always thought that, you know, kind
of investigating all types of things through the music of
language is almost like an entryway into the soul for people.
And so obviously, you know, one way that I like
to do that is through writing lyrics and making songs
(04:06):
with lyrics in them. But the Healing Project for me
was kind of an investigation into how can I look
at music through conversation, through the music of just somebody
talking regular just how they would and what does that
reveal about their relationships to these very difficult things that
they've gone through as a result of societal oppression and
(04:29):
the prison industrial complex and all these things. And I
was super inspired to do that project by one of
my mentors, and Adiger Smith, who's a playwright but she
thinks a lot about the music of language and has
developed this whole, you know, method that's very famous at
this point that's around how she does interview based work
(04:50):
and she thinks a lot about music and that work.
So when I started to kind of be her mentee,
she would just talk to me all the time out
that method, and it's just really inspired me so much.
So I kind of just decided to try my own
spin on that with her blessing. And you know, I
always wanted to make something that was about the subject
(05:12):
of abolition because I have a lot of close friends
growing up that have been through the prison system, that
have dealt with structural violence and whose lives have been
very affected and kind of traumatized by the violent systems
that you know, are a part of the United States,
and so I just really wanted to use the lens
(05:33):
of music and language to try to reach people who
maybe don't have you know, family members or friends who
have been affected in that way, to try to reach
them and have them understand the depth and complexity of
that experience, because I think part of what that system
does is it creates a lot of distance. You know,
(05:55):
if you observe, you know, things like for instance, in prison,
is is never in the center of the city. It's
always in the outskirts or upstate. And that's the reason
for that is distance. You don't have to see what's
really you know, what people are really going through, and
so it's much easier to kind of just like put
them throw them away to the marginess society and not
(06:16):
I how to deal with it. And so my hope
with this project is that through this universal music of
language that we can kind of capsize that distance.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Well so beautifully put.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And I'm a voiceover for my day job, I do
voice work, and so I'm very interested in what you're
speaking about. And also I listened to quite a bit
of the Healing Project and it is epic, And I say,
you don't box yourself in with just America.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I mean, it's a.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Message that could resonate globally, really and it's really unique
and it pulls you in.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
It's not like anything I've ever heard before.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Thank you. That's a high compliment. I mean, that's some
thing I also always try to do in my work.
And you know, with humility understanding that I don't really
think there's anything all the way one hundred percent original.
You know, we all pull some so many sources, and
I think it's important to cite all the sources in
cite all the influences that create us and create art.
(07:19):
But at the same time, I'm always am striving for
that that originality or that uniqueness of Okay, this is
something that I haven't quite heard anything like that, And
in my jolt you know, the listener in a different
new way. So yeah, I appreciate that so much. And
I think you're right also about you know, the global look.
I mean, all the people that are part of the
(07:40):
project are based in the US, and so we've only
really like presented the work here so far. But I
really do hope that it reaches that global audience because
I think you're right, these these issues are totally happening
around the world in a lot of different ways, and
people are also affected in very universal ways by you know,
things like grief and loss and you know, depression, anxiety,
(08:06):
the trauma from you know, violences of many different kinds.
So I think that even if people haven't been through
these specific systemic experiences that are a focus of the project,
I think there's things that they're going to connect to
and say, wow, I know I've been through this, or
I know my brother or my you know sister, my
mom who has been through this. Well.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
You've collaborated with many renowned artists like Herbie Hancock, for example,
one of my faves. How did that experience shape your
approach to music and activism combining the two?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I mean Herbie is my hero, you know, He's
the reason that I started playing piano. You know, I
was like, I was a drummer, and then I heard
heard Herbie play on Miles' records. You know, my teacher,
Geechee Tailor, he gave me all these albums of that
Miles Quintet and I was just like, oh, this is
the sounding that I'm looking for. So, you know, he's
(09:00):
always been my hero. And I met him actually through
my sister, who's like another just another genius musician.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And she's she's worked with him family.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah. Yeah, my sister is like the best musician in
the family, to be honest, She's a genius. So she
has toured with him for a few years now, and
so I met him through her and worked on some
pieces with him. And I think what I just learned
the most from Herbie is like his boundless curiosity and playfulness,
like he is even still now, as you know, one
(09:34):
of the greatest of all time. And also he's you
know up there in age, but his energy is is
like twenty times even me when I was in the room,
because he's always following ideas. He's getting new equipment, he's
trying out new, new different you know, keyboards, and technologies
and sounds, and he just always stays curious. He's always
(09:56):
looking for more ways to be inspired, and you know,
he's never his attitude is never well, you know, I
know all that there is no anything like that because
you can't you can never know as much as there
is a Nobile music. And so, you know, that was
just so inspiring to be around, to say, like, this
is somebody who you know is to me like the
(10:20):
greatest living pianist or you know, one of the grades
living pianists, and he's still so curious and still always
trying to find new ways to play.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Staying hungry is a good thing. Definitely, definitely, and your
music helps. I would imagine a lot of people who
well I'm going to guess this, but I'm sure you
would agree that we're going through challenging times and needed
that that inspiration. So it's it's I'm curious how music
(10:52):
played a role in personal healing for you in your
journey in life. Was there a specific thing that you realized, Wow,
music really played this role in me getting healthy?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think what I have learned about
music is that, in a strange, mysterious way, it tends
to know things before I can articulate them, and so
it's almost given me language throughout the years for what
I've been going through. I don't necessarily think that it
does the healing for me, and I actually think I've
(11:27):
learned to make that distinction in an important way because
as a performer, you know, you give a lot and
the music that you make is supposed to be a gift.
It's not for me, it's for the listener. And so
you know, I think the exchange around that. As a
young musician, you can believe that, well, you know, I'm
(11:47):
pouring all of myself into this music, and it is
a very cathartic process and you learn so much about yourself,
so you can mistake that for that learning for the
healing process itself. But what I've learned is that the
art gives me language, and then I have to go
out and find the tools that I need to actually
do the healing, you know, And that's where you know,
(12:08):
therapy comes in and different forms of healing practice and
community support, you know, and just like engagement with myself,
I think that's where the healing for me comes in.
But the creative practice is a part of that, and
I think the part that it is is number one,
just having the freedom of expression, like knowing that at
(12:29):
any time I have this outlet, which is, you know,
such a special opportunity to you know, just put down
and connect to whatever I'm feeling and dealing with and
give all this kind of dimension to it. And I
think also, like I said, the other part is that
if I'm stuck on something, like I know I'm going
(12:50):
through something but I can't really understand what it is,
if I will know about it just through making work
around it, I will understand it. And it's been really
strange and in a funny way to like go back
to some of the songs that I've written and be like, wow,
this song. Knew that I was going through this before
I could make sense of it, and like the language
(13:13):
that's in the material it allowed me to get like
to figure out, oh, this is what I'm you know,
dealing with. So I think that's something really special. And
then obviously on the listener side, like you said, hopefully
the listener can feel reflected in the music, and I've
certainly experienced that as a listener where a lot of
(13:33):
music I've I've heard, I'm like, again, it gives voice
to to what you're going through. So, oh, that's what
it is, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
So I think that's give me an example of of
of a song or an artist that you would hear
that would make you feel.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
That's a really good question. That's a really good question.
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Do you put different music on depending on your food
or something you may be dealing with?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You have to figure out, Yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I mean I think off the top of my head.
You know, it's hard to remember an exact time because
I haven't had like an immediate experience of that in
a little bit. But there's so many different, you know,
contexts in which I can say that that has happened
to me. But I probably have to follow with you
(14:26):
another because I don't have any when that comes to Mindy.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
That's okay, we can we can go back to that one.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, no, but you're you know, your work often combines
music with other art forms like film and poetry, And
how do you see these different mediums that you're putting
together complement each other.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I think they kind of just go together very naturally.
For me, Like I already always thought of music as
film scenes. I didn't do that intentionally, but as I write,
oh how interesting, particularly with lyrics like I just that's
I just see it in my head like a song.
For me, I see it as like a scene, and
(15:06):
that's how I am able to develop the characters in
the song and things like that. Even if it's something
that is based off of something I've been through, it's
still it is a process of like seeing a scene
in my head to be able to write the song.
And so even before I was making movies, you know,
short films and things like that, I would always see
(15:28):
the scenes in my head from just writing music, and
so it was the extension to just actually making films
was more of a technical one than it was kind
of a shift in imagination. And that just came number
one with you know, getting very inspired and trying to
kind of do a lot of informal study because I
(15:49):
didn't go to school for that, but I just you know,
I went to YouTube school like a lot of people,
and then also just watched a lot of films. And
then the rest comes through collaboration, which has just been
the other blessing in my life, which I think is
the case for all artists, is you know, just finding
the right collaborators. For me, that was just this kind
(16:11):
of collective of filmmakers that I was lucky enough to
be a part of, kind of like building around. And
Christian Padrone is kind of like my main, my main guy,
like co director. We make all the films together, but
there's kind of a loose collective of each other that
we make things together and inspire each other. We call
(16:31):
it risk. It's you know, Christian Anyway, Neutron, Cassim Morris
and On Salvagi to Show See and so you know,
we're always kind of like bouncing inspiration off each other,
making things, supporting each other's work. And they're all high
level filmmakers, and you know, I'm kind of like the
(16:53):
person coming in from the music side. But I think
that allows me to see everything in a different you know.
And so I think collaborati were collaboratively, we're able to
create things that would you know, are very different than
the normal perspective and apply I guess I would say
(17:14):
sonic principles to the visual medium.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Ooh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So I think that that gives me, I think, a
different dimension to how I approach the film work that
I think.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, it's always exciting when you get to meet and
talk to someone who's sort of breaking down barriers, or
maybe not so much barriers, but creating things that haven't
been created, which is in a world that we live
in today, it's getting.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Rarer and rarer.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I think, although there's so many out there, it's just
harder to find because there's so many.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I agree, and not as a I mean, I guess
it's technically is a critique, but I don't mean it
in a harsh way. But I just think that there's
a lot of pressure on artists these days to do
things that they see working, you know, and so that
produces a lot of similar work because people are like, oh,
people get this, and they get it quickly, and you know,
(18:11):
it's it's it's a populated and hard world inside of
like the industries of art, and so I think that
people are incentivized to, yeah, just like make kind of
carbon copies of what already exists, but maybe with a
different spin. But I just don't think that that lasts
the tests of time, you know, And I don't I
(18:33):
wouldn't say that. I I'm not the judge of whether
obviously my work will do that, but I will say
that that is the attempt, you know. Like again, all
the artists that I admire the most, like, that's what
their work does, so I have to try.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
And do you feel as though by doing something for yourself,
regardless of that it's different that it's for you, takes
a little bit of the pressure off for others. In
other words, you know, you're not making it to be successful,
You're making it to help.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, I mean my hero is James Baldwins. I learned
a lot from just reading his work, and he has
all these wonderful essays about the role and responsibility of
the artists, and I think he makes it very clear
that the role and responsibility of the artist is to
be of service. You know, it's service work, and it's
spiritual and creative and emotional service work. And so as
(19:32):
a result, you know, the expectation that you will receive
the fruits of that service immediately is not That's not
part of the job description. And obviously, you know, we
have to understand, just like everybody else, that we have
to materially be able to engage with life. And so
you know, artists deserve all the security and the you know,
(19:56):
a lot there should be a lot that artists have
from a quality of life perspective that you know, we
have to really fight very hard to get and that
people don't really understand like that we you know, don't
have the we don't have the infrastructures that we deserve
to have based on the service that we play in society.
(20:19):
But at the same time, you know, as far as
what the creative work is supposed to do, I think
for me it's it's it's a matter of trust, I
guess in the sense that my hope is if I
follow that creative process and appear an honest way, and
I do it without you know, the the ego and
(20:43):
the interruptions of well, what is going to work and
what's not going to work, but more just what it
is supposed to be made, then you know you trust
that that will carry you to the ears and the
hearts of the people that need.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
What do you think it is about music that is
so healing? Is it the words? Is it the the chorus?
Is it the instruments, vibration? Some people have said, do
you have a specific idea or thought of what it
is that is so healing with music?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
That's a really good question, and you know, I feel
like I always wanted to do more research on that,
and I'm sure there's people that could speak to like
the actual physical and scientific and spiritual properties of what
music does, and like certainly like physically to the body,
you know, And I think I certainly experienced that with
(21:38):
live performance. I think that's why I really still believe,
even in the digital and technological age, and the power
of live performance, it's not just because of the you know,
musical you know, and collective energy, which is very important,
but it's also because of literally like how the sound
(21:58):
changes the physical space, and how the effects of that
sound in that physical space, and how it charges their
bodies and their minds and their spirits. So that really
means a lot to me, and I think, you know,
I receive a lot from life science with that exchange.
But I think in general, I think it's just it
(22:18):
can do so many things. But I think one big
part of it emotionally is just how personal it can be.
I think that's something that with regards to all the
with regards to all the different artistic disciplines, you know,
they all do very different important healing work and all
different types of work, and it's just healing work. But
I think one thing that's unique is that with the
(22:39):
other main disciplines, whether it's like you know, film or
theater or dance, even visual art, there's kind of a
subject object relationship where you're usually just slightly removed from
the work and so you are able to still put
yourself in it, but you're still very conscious that you're
like placing yourself relationship to an object or a character
(23:02):
or a story or something like that. Whereas with music,
you can put on your headphones or even be listening
to a concert and be with other people and hear
the right song and literally feel like you are doing it,
like you're singing it or you're experiencing this this thing,
(23:23):
and it becomes like it's literally a part of your
like in your head, in your body. And I think
that's something very unique to music that it can be
at once such a like a personal, singular experience and
also have that still that same collective thing that's happening.
And I feel like that can be very healing because
(23:44):
it gives you a very rare chance to like see
yourself in a new way, or that you see yourself reflected,
hear yourself reflected in a new way that really does
feel like you're not stepping outside of yourself but literally
like just able to be echo. You know, Jack, my
(24:05):
friend Jack Cobo, who's also was the co producer and
collaborat Core collaborate on Venus the album, the new album,
he said something that I think about a lot. He said,
you know, I asked him, what is the what are
the properties of echo, like just like physically, you know,
as a tool, and he said, an echo is an
imperfect copy. And I was like, Oh, that's great, Like
(24:27):
that's such a great concept. I feel like that's music
that is music echoes in us as like an imperfect
copy of us. If it's hitting the right way, it's like, wow,
this is me, but just maybe like through the prism
of this other person. So that's the long answer for it.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Like an imperfect workshop. No, I think it's beautiful. I
thought what you said makes a lot of sense. What
have some of your fans told you about what they
get out of your music?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
You know, it's very humbling. I think. I think the
best kind of exchanges that I've gotten are people that
just feel kind of similar to what we're talking about
in the last question. They feel reflected, you know, and
so people saying, you know, oh, with this song, that
was my experience, and I've never heard it articulate in
that way. And I think, you know, hopefully it's because
(25:21):
I think I try to be like very rigorously honest
in the word and complex, so some songs can, like
you know, be a little bit complicated, and I think
important ways, like you know, the sound Grief that I
have from my old album, which just talks not only
about the reality of losing somebody, but a lot of
the complicated feelings around it, like bitter than revenge and
(25:44):
not understanding how to get over it or get through it,
like in whatever project of time, be wanting to rant.
And so I think people who have experienced briefs like
they appreciate that I'm making an allowance for a minute,
which we all should, but just besides, society doesn't really
allow for that. And I think hopefully with the new
(26:05):
music it does similar things. You know, there's a song
called Forgive Yourself which ends the album, which is hopefully
similarly like I think for a lot of people when
they hear that, they're like, wow, like, I've never allowed
myself to attain forgiveness around this thing in my life,
and so those are the things that mean the most
(26:26):
of me. Is when people are able to engage that way,
you know, take the music home with them and be like, wow,
I feel like this is changing my life in this
fond them right, say, that's a beautiful, humbling experience.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
It's pretty special.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You've recently received a significant grant and the changes that
it can make are pretty big.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
What are your hopes for it?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, a couple of years ago,
I transformed the Healing Project into an organization, a full
fledged organization, and so now you know, what I'm hoping
that that will be able to do is to really
be both an artistic organization and a direct service organization,
kind of like advocating for an abolitionist perspective and art,
(27:12):
which obviously we're not the only people that do that
with part of community. But also I think the ways
that we do it are maybe unique, and that it's
a very collective experience. So we're building a lot of
models for collective ownership of art, for collective exchange between
currently and formally incarcerated artists and you know, artists of
(27:35):
different experiences around the world who want to speak to
that experience and collaborate. We're using the art, you know,
to directly affect policy around the prison industrial complex and
also to try to actually get people out of prison.
You know, we've been working for the last couple of
(27:55):
years on a particular case around Chief from Ours, an
amazing artists who was falsely accused in Ohio and as
a depth row and we're you know, working with a
lot of different amazing artists, from visual artists like Peter
mccoya and Maryland, you know, to just incredible folks. So,
(28:17):
you know, my hope with the organization is just that
it can change you know, people's perceptions around what they
think the purpose of the prison is and really understanding
that it is not the way to actually rehabilitate, heal
whatever you want to say about like changing society or whatever.
(28:37):
Amuse you have thinking jobs at the prison, and also
to provide that sense of imagination and possibility around what
a world that's built around healing would really look like.
What are those frameworks, what are those ways that we
treat each other? And also how could that be scaled
into actual institutions so that we could have a different
way of being that would actually achieve the aims that
(28:58):
we hope to be about as a society and as
a world. So that's the mission of the organization, and
I think what that also allows me to do is
that I can you know, I'm the artistic and executive
director of the Healing Project, and so I'm able to
lead the organization and kind of determine the vision and
the possibilities around it, but moves as a collective. And meanwhile,
(29:22):
I can also operate as an individual artist and put
out albums like Venus, which are very personal projects which
kind of have their relationship through my desire to heal
through all projects, but you know, it's really of that project.
It's very personal thing too. So it allows me to
kind of operate in these two interlocking ways but still
(29:43):
like stay creative and stay flexible, you know, and do
all these different types of things that I want to do.
So it's a big blessing, you know, that I really
don't take for granted, And my hope is just that
it can inspire and also prof opportunities for a lot
of different artists that want to speak to these issues.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Well that's such a beautiful sentiment, and you are I
don't think this is proper grammar, but you are being
the change that you want to see. And not only
are you inspiring people, but you're creating a legacy and
I think that's pretty darn special. And so more, I
just want to thank you so much for spending the
time with us today. Congratulations on the new project. I
(30:25):
want to get it right. It's called Venus Smiles, not
in the House of Tears.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
It's phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
It is, so you just put it on and it
will take you on an amazing journey and we're very
excited for you. Congratulations on everything now and in the future.
I'm sure we're going to talk again. And thank you
for being on Music Save Me. It is such a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It means
a lot to me, and you know, music has saved
me many times. So I believe in the mission and
grateful to be in conversation. I hope everything is beautiful
in your world. H
Music Saved Me.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
How can I look at music through conversation, through the
music of just somebody talking regular and just how they
would and what does that reveal about the relationships to
these very difficult things that they've gone through as a
result of societal oppression and the prison industrial complex and
all these things.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I'm Lynn Hoffman and welcome to the Music Saved Me Podcast,
the show where we dig deep into the impactful stories
about the power of music. Please follow us and share
with your friends if you don't mind, and thank you
for that. On this episode, Emmy Award winning composer, lyricist, vocalist, filmmaker,
social political activist, and scholar who, by the way, is
(00:42):
working on his PhD. Just your typical underachiever, Soamora Pinther
Hughes discusses his new work and his views on the
force of nature as we know as music Sommora. Welcome
to Music Saved Me. It's so nice to have you here.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you so much. It's an honor to be on
the program.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's very fun.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And interestingly enough, my sister or brother program is called
taking a Walk with Buzz Night, which you are doing
while we're talking right now. I'd like to let the
listeners know it's a beautiful day in October. So we
couldn't keep him from just sitting in a studio. You
had to you had to go walk about.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yes, indeed, yeah, you know, this is my mental health practice.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And it's a good one.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
You have such a unique musical background, starting off as
a jazz pianist studying at the renowned Juilliard. Can you
tell us how and when you first became attached to music.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, I've been playing my whole life. I actually started
at age two, and I was in preschool. Wow, and
I had somebody came to a musician named Jacqueline Rago.
She became. She came to preschool and was like going
around to all the people, all the kids, you know,
playing some pieces. And I was just following her around
(01:59):
like the whole school. And so after that day she
went to my parents and was like, your kid wouldn't
leave me alone. So clearly he's into this music thing.
And she was my first teacher. She really, you know,
took me under her wing and kind of just brought
me into the community of the music that she was
(02:20):
a part of, which was venezuela and traditional music. That's
what I started playing, and then I went to keeping music,
then the jazz, and then I was I was kind
of off and running by then, and I never stopped.
So it's been, you know, the longest relationship I've ever
had in my life, besides you know, with my parents,
and you know, just something that I don't even really
(02:43):
I've never experienced life without it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Your project, The Healing Project, explores themes of incarceration and
violence and policing. What was the inspiration that caused you
to want to tackle all of these sort of difficult
issues and subjects true music.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I always, you know, kind of had a desire to
use music and art to you know, speak to the
things that matter to me and in the society. And
the artists that always inspired me the most were those
kind of artists. And I also, I have always been
(03:21):
interested in language, even though I started it off with
the drums and the piano, and I wasn't a vocalist
till much later, but I was always still very interested
in language and the music of language and sound, which
is a strange kind of I guess entry point into
language because a lot of people don't think about sound
when they think about speaking, which is which is interesting
(03:44):
to me, but we just never talk about it. So yeah,
for me, I just always thought that, you know, kind
of investigating all types of things through the music of
language is almost like an entryway into the soul for people.
And so obviously, you know, one way that I like
to do that is through writing lyrics and making songs
(04:06):
with lyrics in them. But the Healing Project for me
was kind of an investigation into how can I look
at music through conversation, through the music of just somebody
talking regular just how they would and what does that
reveal about their relationships to these very difficult things that
they've gone through as a result of societal oppression and
(04:29):
the prison industrial complex and all these things. And I
was super inspired to do that project by one of
my mentors, and Adiger Smith, who's a playwright but she
thinks a lot about the music of language and has
developed this whole, you know, method that's very famous at
this point that's around how she does interview based work
(04:50):
and she thinks a lot about music and that work.
So when I started to kind of be her mentee,
she would just talk to me all the time out
that method, and it's just really inspired me so much.
So I kind of just decided to try my own
spin on that with her blessing. And you know, I
always wanted to make something that was about the subject
(05:12):
of abolition because I have a lot of close friends
growing up that have been through the prison system, that
have dealt with structural violence and whose lives have been
very affected and kind of traumatized by the violent systems
that you know, are a part of the United States,
and so I just really wanted to use the lens
(05:33):
of music and language to try to reach people who
maybe don't have you know, family members or friends who
have been affected in that way, to try to reach
them and have them understand the depth and complexity of
that experience, because I think part of what that system
does is it creates a lot of distance. You know,
(05:55):
if you observe, you know, things like for instance, in prison,
is is never in the center of the city. It's
always in the outskirts or upstate. And that's the reason
for that is distance. You don't have to see what's
really you know, what people are really going through, and
so it's much easier to kind of just like put
them throw them away to the marginess society and not
(06:16):
I how to deal with it. And so my hope
with this project is that through this universal music of
language that we can kind of capsize that distance.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Well so beautifully put.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And I'm a voiceover for my day job, I do
voice work, and so I'm very interested in what you're
speaking about. And also I listened to quite a bit
of the Healing Project and it is epic, And I say,
you don't box yourself in with just America.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I mean, it's a.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Message that could resonate globally, really and it's really unique
and it pulls you in.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
It's not like anything I've ever heard before.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Thank you. That's a high compliment. I mean, that's some
thing I also always try to do in my work.
And you know, with humility understanding that I don't really
think there's anything all the way one hundred percent original.
You know, we all pull some so many sources, and
I think it's important to cite all the sources in
cite all the influences that create us and create art.
(07:19):
But at the same time, I'm always am striving for
that that originality or that uniqueness of Okay, this is
something that I haven't quite heard anything like that, And
in my jolt you know, the listener in a different
new way. So yeah, I appreciate that so much. And
I think you're right also about you know, the global look.
I mean, all the people that are part of the
(07:40):
project are based in the US, and so we've only
really like presented the work here so far. But I
really do hope that it reaches that global audience because
I think you're right, these these issues are totally happening
around the world in a lot of different ways, and
people are also affected in very universal ways by you know,
things like grief and loss and you know, depression, anxiety,
(08:06):
the trauma from you know, violences of many different kinds.
So I think that even if people haven't been through
these specific systemic experiences that are a focus of the project,
I think there's things that they're going to connect to
and say, wow, I know I've been through this, or
I know my brother or my you know sister, my
mom who has been through this. Well.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
You've collaborated with many renowned artists like Herbie Hancock, for example,
one of my faves. How did that experience shape your
approach to music and activism combining the two?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I mean Herbie is my hero, you know, He's
the reason that I started playing piano. You know, I
was like, I was a drummer, and then I heard
heard Herbie play on Miles' records. You know, my teacher,
Geechee Tailor, he gave me all these albums of that
Miles Quintet and I was just like, oh, this is
the sounding that I'm looking for. So, you know, he's
(09:00):
always been my hero. And I met him actually through
my sister, who's like another just another genius musician.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And she's she's worked with him family.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah. Yeah, my sister is like the best musician in
the family, to be honest, She's a genius. So she
has toured with him for a few years now, and
so I met him through her and worked on some
pieces with him. And I think what I just learned
the most from Herbie is like his boundless curiosity and playfulness,
like he is even still now, as you know, one
(09:34):
of the greatest of all time. And also he's you
know up there in age, but his energy is is
like twenty times even me when I was in the room,
because he's always following ideas. He's getting new equipment, he's
trying out new, new different you know, keyboards, and technologies
and sounds, and he just always stays curious. He's always
(09:56):
looking for more ways to be inspired, and you know,
he's never his attitude is never well, you know, I
know all that there is no anything like that because
you can't you can never know as much as there
is a Nobile music. And so, you know, that was
just so inspiring to be around, to say, like, this
is somebody who you know is to me like the
(10:20):
greatest living pianist or you know, one of the grades
living pianists, and he's still so curious and still always
trying to find new ways to play.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Staying hungry is a good thing. Definitely, definitely, and your
music helps. I would imagine a lot of people who
well I'm going to guess this, but I'm sure you
would agree that we're going through challenging times and needed
that that inspiration. So it's it's I'm curious how music
(10:52):
played a role in personal healing for you in your
journey in life. Was there a specific thing that you realized, Wow,
music really played this role in me getting healthy?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think what I have learned about
music is that, in a strange, mysterious way, it tends
to know things before I can articulate them, and so
it's almost given me language throughout the years for what
I've been going through. I don't necessarily think that it
does the healing for me, and I actually think I've
(11:27):
learned to make that distinction in an important way because
as a performer, you know, you give a lot and
the music that you make is supposed to be a gift.
It's not for me, it's for the listener. And so
you know, I think the exchange around that. As a
young musician, you can believe that, well, you know, I'm
(11:47):
pouring all of myself into this music, and it is
a very cathartic process and you learn so much about yourself,
so you can mistake that for that learning for the
healing process itself. But what I've learned is that the
art gives me language, and then I have to go
out and find the tools that I need to actually
do the healing, you know, And that's where you know,
(12:08):
therapy comes in and different forms of healing practice and
community support, you know, and just like engagement with myself,
I think that's where the healing for me comes in.
But the creative practice is a part of that, and
I think the part that it is is number one,
just having the freedom of expression, like knowing that at
(12:29):
any time I have this outlet, which is, you know,
such a special opportunity to you know, just put down
and connect to whatever I'm feeling and dealing with and
give all this kind of dimension to it. And I
think also, like I said, the other part is that
if I'm stuck on something, like I know I'm going
(12:50):
through something but I can't really understand what it is,
if I will know about it just through making work
around it, I will understand it. And it's been really
strange and in a funny way to like go back
to some of the songs that I've written and be like, wow,
this song. Knew that I was going through this before
I could make sense of it, and like the language
(13:13):
that's in the material it allowed me to get like
to figure out, oh, this is what I'm you know,
dealing with. So I think that's something really special. And
then obviously on the listener side, like you said, hopefully
the listener can feel reflected in the music, and I've
certainly experienced that as a listener where a lot of
(13:33):
music I've I've heard, I'm like, again, it gives voice
to to what you're going through. So, oh, that's what
it is, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
So I think that's give me an example of of
of a song or an artist that you would hear
that would make you feel.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
That's a really good question. That's a really good question.
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Do you put different music on depending on your food
or something you may be dealing with?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You have to figure out, Yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I mean I think off the top of my head.
You know, it's hard to remember an exact time because
I haven't had like an immediate experience of that in
a little bit. But there's so many different, you know,
contexts in which I can say that that has happened
to me. But I probably have to follow with you
(14:26):
another because I don't have any when that comes to Mindy.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
That's okay, we can we can go back to that one.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, no, but you're you know, your work often combines
music with other art forms like film and poetry, And
how do you see these different mediums that you're putting
together complement each other.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I think they kind of just go together very naturally.
For me, Like I already always thought of music as
film scenes. I didn't do that intentionally, but as I write,
oh how interesting, particularly with lyrics like I just that's
I just see it in my head like a song.
For me, I see it as like a scene, and
(15:06):
that's how I am able to develop the characters in
the song and things like that. Even if it's something
that is based off of something I've been through, it's
still it is a process of like seeing a scene
in my head to be able to write the song.
And so even before I was making movies, you know,
short films and things like that, I would always see
(15:28):
the scenes in my head from just writing music, and
so it was the extension to just actually making films
was more of a technical one than it was kind
of a shift in imagination. And that just came number
one with you know, getting very inspired and trying to
kind of do a lot of informal study because I
(15:49):
didn't go to school for that, but I just you know,
I went to YouTube school like a lot of people,
and then also just watched a lot of films. And
then the rest comes through collaboration, which has just been
the other blessing in my life, which I think is
the case for all artists, is you know, just finding
the right collaborators. For me, that was just this kind
(16:11):
of collective of filmmakers that I was lucky enough to
be a part of, kind of like building around. And
Christian Padrone is kind of like my main, my main guy,
like co director. We make all the films together, but
there's kind of a loose collective of each other that
we make things together and inspire each other. We call
(16:31):
it risk. It's you know, Christian Anyway, Neutron, Cassim Morris
and On Salvagi to Show See and so you know,
we're always kind of like bouncing inspiration off each other,
making things, supporting each other's work. And they're all high
level filmmakers, and you know, I'm kind of like the
(16:53):
person coming in from the music side. But I think
that allows me to see everything in a different you know.
And so I think collaborati were collaboratively, we're able to
create things that would you know, are very different than
the normal perspective and apply I guess I would say
(17:14):
sonic principles to the visual medium.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Ooh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So I think that that gives me, I think, a
different dimension to how I approach the film work that
I think.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, it's always exciting when you get to meet and
talk to someone who's sort of breaking down barriers, or
maybe not so much barriers, but creating things that haven't
been created, which is in a world that we live
in today, it's getting.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Rarer and rarer.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I think, although there's so many out there, it's just
harder to find because there's so many.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I agree, and not as a I mean, I guess
it's technically is a critique, but I don't mean it
in a harsh way. But I just think that there's
a lot of pressure on artists these days to do
things that they see working, you know, and so that
produces a lot of similar work because people are like, oh,
people get this, and they get it quickly, and you know,
(18:11):
it's it's it's a populated and hard world inside of
like the industries of art, and so I think that
people are incentivized to, yeah, just like make kind of
carbon copies of what already exists, but maybe with a
different spin. But I just don't think that that lasts
the tests of time, you know, And I don't I
(18:33):
wouldn't say that. I I'm not the judge of whether
obviously my work will do that, but I will say
that that is the attempt, you know. Like again, all
the artists that I admire the most, like, that's what
their work does, so I have to try.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
And do you feel as though by doing something for yourself,
regardless of that it's different that it's for you, takes
a little bit of the pressure off for others. In
other words, you know, you're not making it to be successful,
You're making it to help.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, I mean my hero is James Baldwins. I learned
a lot from just reading his work, and he has
all these wonderful essays about the role and responsibility of
the artists, and I think he makes it very clear
that the role and responsibility of the artist is to
be of service. You know, it's service work, and it's
spiritual and creative and emotional service work. And so as
(19:32):
a result, you know, the expectation that you will receive
the fruits of that service immediately is not That's not
part of the job description. And obviously, you know, we
have to understand, just like everybody else, that we have
to materially be able to engage with life. And so
you know, artists deserve all the security and the you know,
(19:56):
a lot there should be a lot that artists have
from a quality of life perspective that you know, we
have to really fight very hard to get and that
people don't really understand like that we you know, don't
have the we don't have the infrastructures that we deserve
to have based on the service that we play in society.
(20:19):
But at the same time, you know, as far as
what the creative work is supposed to do, I think
for me it's it's it's a matter of trust, I
guess in the sense that my hope is if I
follow that creative process and appear an honest way, and
I do it without you know, the the ego and
(20:43):
the interruptions of well, what is going to work and
what's not going to work, but more just what it
is supposed to be made, then you know you trust
that that will carry you to the ears and the
hearts of the people that need.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
What do you think it is about music that is
so healing? Is it the words? Is it the the chorus?
Is it the instruments, vibration? Some people have said, do
you have a specific idea or thought of what it
is that is so healing with music?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
That's a really good question, and you know, I feel
like I always wanted to do more research on that,
and I'm sure there's people that could speak to like
the actual physical and scientific and spiritual properties of what
music does, and like certainly like physically to the body,
you know, And I think I certainly experienced that with
(21:38):
live performance. I think that's why I really still believe,
even in the digital and technological age, and the power
of live performance, it's not just because of the you know,
musical you know, and collective energy, which is very important,
but it's also because of literally like how the sound
(21:58):
changes the physical space, and how the effects of that
sound in that physical space, and how it charges their
bodies and their minds and their spirits. So that really
means a lot to me, and I think, you know,
I receive a lot from life science with that exchange.
But I think in general, I think it's just it
(22:18):
can do so many things. But I think one big
part of it emotionally is just how personal it can be.
I think that's something that with regards to all the
with regards to all the different artistic disciplines, you know,
they all do very different important healing work and all
different types of work, and it's just healing work. But
I think one thing that's unique is that with the
(22:39):
other main disciplines, whether it's like you know, film or
theater or dance, even visual art, there's kind of a
subject object relationship where you're usually just slightly removed from
the work and so you are able to still put
yourself in it, but you're still very conscious that you're
like placing yourself relationship to an object or a character
(23:02):
or a story or something like that. Whereas with music,
you can put on your headphones or even be listening
to a concert and be with other people and hear
the right song and literally feel like you are doing it,
like you're singing it or you're experiencing this this thing,
(23:23):
and it becomes like it's literally a part of your
like in your head, in your body. And I think
that's something very unique to music that it can be
at once such a like a personal, singular experience and
also have that still that same collective thing that's happening.
And I feel like that can be very healing because
(23:44):
it gives you a very rare chance to like see
yourself in a new way, or that you see yourself reflected,
hear yourself reflected in a new way that really does
feel like you're not stepping outside of yourself but literally
like just able to be echo. You know, Jack, my
(24:05):
friend Jack Cobo, who's also was the co producer and
collaborat Core collaborate on Venus the album, the new album,
he said something that I think about a lot. He said,
you know, I asked him, what is the what are
the properties of echo, like just like physically, you know,
as a tool, and he said, an echo is an
imperfect copy. And I was like, Oh, that's great, Like
(24:27):
that's such a great concept. I feel like that's music
that is music echoes in us as like an imperfect
copy of us. If it's hitting the right way, it's like, wow,
this is me, but just maybe like through the prism
of this other person. So that's the long answer for it.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Like an imperfect workshop. No, I think it's beautiful. I
thought what you said makes a lot of sense. What
have some of your fans told you about what they
get out of your music?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
You know, it's very humbling. I think. I think the
best kind of exchanges that I've gotten are people that
just feel kind of similar to what we're talking about
in the last question. They feel reflected, you know, and
so people saying, you know, oh, with this song, that
was my experience, and I've never heard it articulate in
that way. And I think, you know, hopefully it's because
(25:21):
I think I try to be like very rigorously honest
in the word and complex, so some songs can, like
you know, be a little bit complicated, and I think
important ways, like you know, the sound Grief that I
have from my old album, which just talks not only
about the reality of losing somebody, but a lot of
the complicated feelings around it, like bitter than revenge and
(25:44):
not understanding how to get over it or get through it,
like in whatever project of time, be wanting to rant.
And so I think people who have experienced briefs like
they appreciate that I'm making an allowance for a minute,
which we all should, but just besides, society doesn't really
allow for that. And I think hopefully with the new
(26:05):
music it does similar things. You know, there's a song
called Forgive Yourself which ends the album, which is hopefully
similarly like I think for a lot of people when
they hear that, they're like, wow, like, I've never allowed
myself to attain forgiveness around this thing in my life,
and so those are the things that mean the most
(26:26):
of me. Is when people are able to engage that way,
you know, take the music home with them and be like, wow,
I feel like this is changing my life in this
fond them right, say, that's a beautiful, humbling experience.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
It's pretty special.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You've recently received a significant grant and the changes that
it can make are pretty big.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
What are your hopes for it?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, a couple of years ago,
I transformed the Healing Project into an organization, a full
fledged organization, and so now you know, what I'm hoping
that that will be able to do is to really
be both an artistic organization and a direct service organization,
kind of like advocating for an abolitionist perspective and art,
(27:12):
which obviously we're not the only people that do that
with part of community. But also I think the ways
that we do it are maybe unique, and that it's
a very collective experience. So we're building a lot of
models for collective ownership of art, for collective exchange between
currently and formally incarcerated artists and you know, artists of
(27:35):
different experiences around the world who want to speak to
that experience and collaborate. We're using the art, you know,
to directly affect policy around the prison industrial complex and
also to try to actually get people out of prison.
You know, we've been working for the last couple of
(27:55):
years on a particular case around Chief from Ours, an
amazing artists who was falsely accused in Ohio and as
a depth row and we're you know, working with a
lot of different amazing artists, from visual artists like Peter
mccoya and Maryland, you know, to just incredible folks. So,
(28:17):
you know, my hope with the organization is just that
it can change you know, people's perceptions around what they
think the purpose of the prison is and really understanding
that it is not the way to actually rehabilitate, heal
whatever you want to say about like changing society or whatever.
(28:37):
Amuse you have thinking jobs at the prison, and also
to provide that sense of imagination and possibility around what
a world that's built around healing would really look like.
What are those frameworks, what are those ways that we
treat each other? And also how could that be scaled
into actual institutions so that we could have a different
way of being that would actually achieve the aims that
(28:58):
we hope to be about as a society and as
a world. So that's the mission of the organization, and
I think what that also allows me to do is
that I can you know, I'm the artistic and executive
director of the Healing Project, and so I'm able to
lead the organization and kind of determine the vision and
the possibilities around it, but moves as a collective. And meanwhile,
(29:22):
I can also operate as an individual artist and put
out albums like Venus, which are very personal projects which
kind of have their relationship through my desire to heal
through all projects, but you know, it's really of that project.
It's very personal thing too. So it allows me to
kind of operate in these two interlocking ways but still
(29:43):
like stay creative and stay flexible, you know, and do
all these different types of things that I want to do.
So it's a big blessing, you know, that I really
don't take for granted, And my hope is just that
it can inspire and also prof opportunities for a lot
of different artists that want to speak to these issues.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
Well that's such a beautiful sentiment, and you are I
don't think this is proper grammar, but you are being
the change that you want to see. And not only
are you inspiring people, but you're creating a legacy and
I think that's pretty darn special. And so more, I
just want to thank you so much for spending the
time with us today. Congratulations on the new project. I
(30:25):
want to get it right. It's called Venus Smiles, not
in the House of Tears.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
It's phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
It is, so you just put it on and it
will take you on an amazing journey and we're very
excited for you. Congratulations on everything now and in the future.
I'm sure we're going to talk again. And thank you
for being on Music Save Me. It is such a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It means
a lot to me, and you know, music has saved
me many times. So I believe in the mission and
grateful to be in conversation. I hope everything is beautiful
in your world. H
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