Trusting Yourself with Jason Rosario

This week host Louis Carr speaks with Jason Rosario, Chief Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Officer of BBDO Worldwide and the Founder of Lives of Men.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Louis Carr hosted the Blueprint Connect podcasts. The
Blueprint Connect podcast is an extension of the Blueprint Men's Summit,
where we have consistently given men a prescription for growth,
not just for themselves, but also for their families and
their communities. During these podcasts will educate and motivate our

(00:22):
listeners about entrepreneurship, careers, finances, health and wellness, and even relationships.
Our special guest today, it's Jason P. Sario, Chief Diversity,
Equity and Inclusion Officer a b BDEO Worldwide. B B
d O is a division of the Omnicon Group. Welcome Jason,

(00:46):
Thanks for having me. Lewis. Is such a pleasure to
be here. Um. Happy New Year to you and yours
and your listeners. Uh, same to you. Uh. It's an
exciting time but also what I would call a dicey
time with the pandemic of COVID that is running rapid
right now. But we've also been in another type of

(01:08):
pandemic for sort of the last two years of equity
inclusion and racial injustice in this country. How has that
sort of uh raised the lift and the burden of
your job over that particular time. Yeah, and I'm it's
interesting that you frame it as a as another pandemic.

(01:29):
That is exactly what it is, you know. And when
I think about what we're still dealing with in many
way in many ways, but what we've emerged from in
so many other ways is uh, you know, kind of
the what I'll call our our modern day civil rights,
social and humanitarian rights crisis. Right. So, UM that that

(01:51):
sparked by of course George Floyd and Brianna Taylor uh
and and others who have lost your lives at the
hands of of law enforcement. UM. What that's created, it,
I think, is this awakening of sorts uh in people,
especially inside of corporate America, and really helping us think about, um,
how we show up in the world at the core

(02:12):
of it, but really um incur I don't want to
say encouraging, but really forcing us to reckon with the
notion of what equity looks like uh in corporate structures
and so what that looks like for me, as someone
who's leading diversity, equity and inclusion at one of the
most iconic advertising agencies in the world, is really helping

(02:35):
distill the importance of and it's crazy that I have
to even think about it this way, but distill the
importance of black and brown bodies right, um, as it
relates to kind of what we do on a daily basis,
which is, you know, craft stories that influence consumer behavior.
And so taking all of that together, as a chief

(02:56):
diversity officer, of course, my role is to help build
culture uh and and create a system of equity inside
of an organization. But then outside of that has really
helped our clients and advertisers think about the world that
we all live in right through the marketing campaigns that
we create for them, uh, and then in the process
help them think through a more inclusive their entire business

(03:18):
to a more inclusive lens. So it really is um,
you know, holistic approach to equity, systemic equity UH that
that hopefully combats kind of what we've been dealing with
over generations. Quite frankly well, Jason, when I think about
jobs and positions like yours, UH, this saying comes to

(03:40):
mind heavy as the head that wears the crown, because
there's so many different groups of people who look for
different things from you. So you have the employees who
look for a certain thing from you, you have leadership
that looks for a certain thing from you. You have

(04:01):
consumers who look for a certain thing from you, and
you have clients who look for a certain thing from you.
How do you do that juggling act on the day
to day basis? Because everybody wants it now. Whatever it
is that they're looking for, they don't want it tomorrow.
They don't want it six months from now. They want
it now. How do you do that juggling? Now? That's interesting.

(04:24):
I had a conversation with my boss who's a worldwide CEO. So,
Andrew Robertson is a worldwide CEO B Video, and I
was joking with him that, Um, my job is uh
is also to be a therapist. Um, not only to
to our employees and to our clients and to our partners,
but to my family, my friends as well, right. And

(04:46):
so I was joking with him, uh in that if
we're the therapist who heals the healer, right um, and
so he joked that it's his job to be a
therapist in many ways as well as a CEO. But no,
I think you know I and this is gonna sound
super esoteric and granola, but I've had to double down
on you know my own self care and my spiritual practice,

(05:09):
right because my job is such an emotional and emotionally
driven role. Right. Um, when you just still this work
at the root of it, it's it's really people lead business,
right or people focus or people centric uh business and
so uh, I have to lead with the heart often, right,
I have to lead with a lot of emotion. I

(05:30):
have to lead with a lot of um empathy. And
I I think that in general, one of the most
important or the most important leadership qualities that I think
anyone can develop, it's not i Q, it's e Q right,
emotional intelligence. Um. And so it's really doubling down on
making sure that I'm taking care of myself, that I'm
taking the time off when I whenever I'm afforded the

(05:52):
opportunity to pour back into myself so that I can
show up much more full. Uh. And then when I
look at those stakehold is that you laid out, whether
it's our clients helping them think through their entire business,
whether it's our own employees helping them feel empowered and
and feel like they work at a place set that
really sees them. Uh. It really is tapping into a

(06:13):
human truth which is, you know, this is all about
learning how to connect, grow, learn how to connect grow,
uh and and evolve together. Right. And so if we
can kind of ground the work in that space, uh,
then I think we're our moral compasses pointed in the
right direction, you know. And then I think the other
part of it is, you know, we I'd be remiss
if I don't mention this, but we don't at least

(06:35):
I don't work at a nonprofit, right, I work for
a for profit. And so understanding that really helps me
frame this work in in the language of business. Uh.
And that allows me to really communicate to my you know,
my leadership team, our clients, their clients around the importance
of this work. So it really is understanding that m

(06:56):
and then being able to articulate that using language to
do that. So, Jason, there's no secret that the industry
that we find ourselves, then, advertising and marketing, is one
of the most least diverse industries of the business world.
So how have you sort of set out to sort

(07:17):
of correct that and improve that at B B D O. Well,
we we have kpi s right like everyone does nowadays.
Everyone has a diversity goal that they want to hit
and so, um, we've set out to at the very
minimum be representative of the markets that we operated, right.
And so if you're looking at the US, our goal

(07:37):
is to be at the very minimum representative of the
U S workforce. Right, So that might mean what percent black,
sixteen percent Hispanic, latinos on and so forth, and so
that is our Those are our goals, um. And so
you know, we were striving and everything that we're doing
in terms of recruiting and retention and promotions that everything

(07:57):
are geared towards those kpi u uh. And then outside
of that, you know, it's it's really helping to reverse
engineer from where we are today to kind of what
drives at growth. Right. So if we say black and
brown folks drive culture, we are the creators of culture
across the arts, music, uh, you know, fashion, whatever it is.

(08:21):
Then how do we how do we communicate with those
audiences in a way that is authentic. Well, you do
that by having the people that represent those communities working
for you, right, and then empowering those folks two and
then elevating those those voices when it matters most so
that you benefit from that diversity. So it really is
helping our clients understand that, you know, diversity is not

(08:42):
just a good it's not just the right thing to do.
It really is um an important part of your business.
And when you think about the demographics that we're seeing,
uh in the US specifically, but also globally, you know
we're seeing that um. Of course, black and brown folks
are becoming or more of the majority. And so if
you don't have as a brand a multicultural, diverse, inclusive,

(09:06):
intersectional strategy, then you don't have a growth strategy UM.
And so I think it really is helping them understand
that and then helping them understand the lovers that they
have to pull together. To that point, we'll be right
back with more of my interview after this quick break.

(09:31):
So how do you address when people say, Jason, this
is just good things are going well, Yes, I know
we're not diverse, but the business is good. So how
much better can it get? How do you how do
you address statements like that? Yeah, it's it's interesting because uh,
you know, again, it's just really helping them unpack what

(09:53):
that means. Right, you might be doing great now um
and and so that might mean you're doing really really
well with a specif off a demographic, but then show
me your growth strategy, show me how you are tapping
into other uh demographics, other consumer segments and groups. Um,
and I would guarantee you that if you don't have
a clearly defined strategy to to speak to black and

(10:17):
brown folks, and I would say just more broadly marginalized folks, right,
folks with disabilities folks uh as part of the l
g B, t Q plus community. Right. If you don't
have a strategy that addresses those groups that are increasingly
becoming the majority in this country, then you don't have
You have a dying brand. So you might be doing
well today, but the goal to be is to be
in business for the long haul, right, not just today.

(10:40):
And so you know it's really helping them understand that
to play that long game, you need to have a
more diverse strategy. So you you haven't always been in
this particular industry, Jason, you and financial service just before,
so tell us about your path to this industry. How
did that happen? Um? Man? Uh, you ever heard the

(11:01):
quote by Steve Jobs that said, um, you can only
connect the dots looking backwards. I think yeah, he made
that point, um during his commitments commencement address at Stanford,
I believe, uh, and that's always stuck with me because
that's exactly how my career has unfolded. So I started
my career in finance, wealth management, investment banking, UM, you know,

(11:24):
kind of did all the things there, managed to live
in Switzerland for a couple of years as well, UM,
and then kind of transition from that to real estate finance.
Worked at a company one of the major UM commercial
real estate companies, as an underwriter of hotel assets. Right.
So in the thick of of finance, I decided to

(11:45):
leave that space back in sixteen because I wanted to
if you if you remember what was happening then kind
of similar to what was happening with the police shootings,
you know, so Terrence Crutcher, Philando cap Stele and and
so many others. I wanted to kind of a dress
that I felt a calling in my heart to address
that in some way. So I launched the platform called

(12:05):
The Lives of Men at that point. That was really
intended to do two things. One was to um help
kind of depict men of color specifically in a different light, uh,
in media and and and in you know the mainstream uh,
and then what it actually turned out being was a
platform that explored masculinity as it relates to black and

(12:28):
brown men. After Me Too went viral, right, and so
that's always been something that I'm very been very passionate about. UM.
Then that evolved kind of to discussing, uh, you know,
issues around allied ship for men and how we can
show up uh in corporate spaces, and so that led
to more D and I work and more consulting work
with brands and agencies alike. Uh and UH. I spent

(12:50):
some time on on a show for Yahoo News. I
executive produced and hosted a show on Yahoo News called
Dear Men, UH that really kind of unpacked some of
these conversations, and so interviewed folks like Kevin Love and
Swiss Speeds and others. Uh. And then UM going into
I was doing my thing as an entrepreneur, and this

(13:10):
pandemic hits, and so you know, a few months later,
George Floyd happens, and then I get a call from
B B D O UM asking me about whether or
not I'd be interested in this role UM to lead
diversity at their agency. So you know, it's kind of
I would say, there's a couple through lines there that
that are consistent. One is, I've always been really really
present to how I showed up in these various spaces

(13:32):
as a black man and I and I always joke
that I'm the product of diversity, equity and initiative and
inclusive initiatives gone wrong, um in my spaces, because I
always kind of got to a point of success that
I couldn't get pass, right, Like there was this invisible walls,
invisible ceiling that I just couldn't place. And so, you know,
I felt like, man, maybe my my path isn't necessarily

(13:56):
inside of corporate spaces. Maybe it's outside of it. Uh.
And so I tired of disrupted externally. But I've always
been present to that journey. Um. And then I always
always was keen on developing a business mindset around you know,
being able to articulate the importance of that we're regardless
of the subject, right. So I think I bring that
to the table in my role and that I'm able

(14:18):
to articulate the importance of d and I through a
business lens for some of our clients that may not
necessarily get that it's a good thing to do, it's
the right thing to do. So, you know, I would
say in summary, I left a lot out, Louis, But
in summary, I think that's kind of been the trajectory
all along. So I'm sure you run across uh this

(14:39):
corporate executives in roles where they feel that they have
a glass ceiling or a seamen ceiling, but they know
they're not going anywhere. How do you advise those executives
to sort of either hanging there or make a transition
to something. Because I'm sure there are a lot to

(15:00):
people who will listen to this podcast and they're waiting
for me to say, Hey, I'm in this situation. How
do I get out of it? How do I improve it?
How do I change it? Yeah? Um, I always creene
out this question because my path, in the way that
I made that decision was completely unlike the advice that
I would give. Um. I I quit my job literally

(15:22):
three weeks after launching a platform with no plan. It
wasn't monetizing, it was just like, this is what I
want to do, uh, And I kind of just built
the plane as I flew it. Um. So, So I
would not recommend that for everyone, UM, but I will
say that you know, if you are in a place
where you feel stuck you and you feel like there's
more purpose and there's more that you can do for

(15:42):
the world. UM. I think now more than ever, we
have an opportunity to uh to explore that outside of
our nine to fives. Right. So you'll often here, well,
if you have a nine to five, uh, you still
have you can still have a five to ten right
or five to midnight it right, So you finish your
your daily job, get home, get some dinner, and then

(16:04):
think about how you build your business outside of that
from five to ten or six to twelve. So you know,
I would encourage folks to think about that. You know,
what are they where are their opportunities for them to
build on their platform outside of their nine five. But
I would also say that if there is an opportunity
for you to build your dream right or or follow

(16:25):
your purpose, if you will uh and bring that in
more into more cohesion into what you do on a
daily basis, I would say that that's also a possibility. Um.
And I think if if nothing else, this pandemic has
created opportunities for for us to really explore what work
means for us, right, and how and how we work
and so technology, the pandemic being able to work remotely

(16:48):
has created all of those opportunities. I would say, take
advantage of them. There are a lot of black executives
in corporate America today. That's just we didn't create this
problem of deficient diversity, equity and inclusion. Why should we
have to help fix it? Because that's part of our
job that we don't get paid for. And I mean

(17:09):
I've heard it from many, many many executives speak to them, now,
why should we play a part in helping fix a
problem that we didn't cause? Um? Because if we don't,
who will. I think that's that's as simple and answers
I can give you, know, And I think there are

(17:31):
allies out there that want to, um, they want to
address some of these issues that legacy issues. And I'm
under no pretense to think that in the in the
time that I've been in this role, or even in
just in the last ten years, that we're going to
solve decades old problem, right um. And I think it's

(17:51):
gonna take up a lot more time for us to
get to a point of of parity, so to speak,
right before we start to reel to see real progress.
But I think it's important for us to be involved
because I think there's something to be said about being
part of a marginalized community. The insights that we bring
to the table, the point of views, uh, the experience

(18:12):
that we can offer UH is really valuable, and we
can't expect our allies to have all of that information.
I'm not saying that it's our job to to I'm
not I'm not ascribing responsibility uh to to one group
or another to to change things. But I am saying
that we have to collectively roll up our sleeves and

(18:34):
figure out a way forward. Because you know, I've always
had an abundance mindset, right, and I think you know,
there's enough out here for all of us to win.
If we were to make that pie bigger, right, if
we were to enlarge the pie, then all of us
eat more and so uh and that requires all of us.
And so you know, I would say, hold people accountable
whenever possible. For sure, UM, show up authentically, but never

(18:59):
lose sight of the fact that we have a responsibility
here UM to help move us all out of where
we've been. And I think that's that's my point of
view on them. So we we've heard a lot of
famous and infamous CEOs that you know I would do it,
but we just can't find we we we can't find

(19:19):
any black brown people who are qualified for the positions
that we have. Addressed that statement, Yeah, I think it's
a lazy statement. It's a it's a cop out, it's
a catch all. Um. You know, one of the things
that we're doing at b b D O to to
address that. Right when I've heard that before, I'm like, well,
are we looking at non traditional sources of talent? And

(19:40):
then I raised my hand as an example of that, right,
Like I said, you know, we've we've just talked about this.
I don't come from a traditional marketing background, if you will.
I don't have a PhD and diversity equity inclusion um.
But what I do have is a set of transferable
skills that uh, that I can apply that are going
to be just as valuable. UM. I also think that

(20:02):
we have to start to look at how we UH
career path people across not just advertising, but across all
industries and really helping them think about um, you know,
their their careers in a more productive way and and
taking more of an onus onto the organization to think
about their careers, right, So can we think about that
person's trajectory and what their experience is going to be

(20:25):
like uh at or at our organization at year three
and at year five, so we can proactively give them
what they need at those points, right, whether it's more training,
whether it's a mentor whether it's a promotion, etcetera. We
need to start thinking about that as organizations as opposed
to putting all of that pressure on our employees. You know,
oftentimes we've we've all interviewed and we've all gotten the question,

(20:47):
where where do you see yourself in five years? And
we're expected to have a great answer for that. But
if we were to ask that question to the organization,
I guarantee the organization would not have a great answer
for that. And so I think that's part of it, right,
It was really thinking about people's career paths um tapping
into non traditional sources of talent and then having a
little patients and really investing in that talent development and growth. So, Jason,

(21:11):
I worked with a lot of college students, and a
lot of college students of color are frankly scared of
the future because they read what we read, they watch
what we watch and they understand the plight that the
hurdle of diversity, equity, inclusion. Think back to your twenty

(21:34):
year old self and talk to a twenty year old
college student about what the future you may hold for them. Wow,
that's probably the hardest question you've posed, Lewis, because it's
it's uh, it's such a personal one. Uh. And then
I think back to my twenty year old self. I
was graduating into the tech bubble of two thousand one. Um,

(21:56):
I was, you know, and later in that year we
had to deal with September eleve length and then that
led to you know, a subsequent period of of contraction.
So but I was lucky. I was lucky that that
I already you know, I had landed a job and
I didn't have to worry about um, you know, kind
of coming into the world and having a fine one
in that environment. But again, I think there there are

(22:16):
a couple of things that I would say for college
students now preparing to enter the quote unquote real world.
Um is uh if if, unlike ever before, your uniqueness matters, right,
and what you get paid for is your difference. Whereas
in the past, maybe my twin year twenty year old self. Uh.

(22:37):
The advice that I was given was, you know, how
do you conform? How can you assimilate? How can you
become more or just like that group that you're about
to step into? Whereas now, I think individuality is at
a premium, right, and so I would say, lean into
your difference, right, don't hide, don't don't shy away from
bringing that fully to the table, because I think that's

(22:57):
what people get paid for, right. And if you don't
find someone willing to pay you inside of corporate America,
and build your own thing, right, build your own table,
as it were. But I do think that that's probably
the best advice that I would give is don't worry
so much about conforming, um, think about how you might
be able to stand out and build uh and build
a solid set of skills around that, uh and something

(23:18):
that you can offer to to the world that might
be a value. So we've also been hearing over the
last couple of years, Jason, that show up as your
authentic self? Is that realistic? In the corporate world wood
standard cultures? Can those cultures be flexible enough for people

(23:41):
like you and I to show up as our authentic self? Uh?
As a d and I practitioners and as a leader,
I have to say yes. But but if I'm a realist, UM,
I gotta say that we've got work to do. And
and here's why when we meet, when we say show

(24:02):
up your authentic self or your fullest self, what I
think we really mean is bring only that which is
acceptable to dominant culture. Anything else is going to make
us uncomfortable. Leave that at home, right, And so I
think we need to be honest with ourselves and and
and define what we really mean by that, because we

(24:24):
can't keep saying bring your authentic self to work, um,
and then expect folks to dress a certain way, not
where they hair a certain way, not have tattoos, not
have piercings, not you know, and so and then marginalize
people and treat them differently because of that, or even
uh judge them in advance because of that. So I
think we need to be mindful of that. That said,

(24:44):
there is a time, and I think we're living in
this time right now where you can you can bring
as authentic uh yourself as you can or as you
as you feel comfortable with UM. And so I think
there's there's always a balance there, right, So you have
to measure that out, UM, you know, kind of take

(25:05):
stock of the organization that you're working with, UM, the
environment that you're in, where you are in your career,
because for better or worse, unfortunately, you know, I just
finished saying that young people should think about their difference
and lean into that difference. There is a certain level of, uh,
I would say, um, experience that you have to have
under your belt before you can really start to let

(25:27):
your hair down, so to speak. Right, And so I
think there's a baseline of experience as a baseline of
seniority that you have to develop, I think before you
can really start to kind of really show yourself bully.
But I think that you know, if there was ever
a time for you to show up, um and be
as authentic as you possibly can, not your fullest self,
but as you possibly can that I think this is

(25:48):
a time Jason that kind of described when people ask
me that question, is show up as your authentic best self,
right right? Because I even tell people, I even tell
people here BT you don't want me to show the
best of my authentic self, trust Smith. And that's the
and that's the point, right Lewis I think if if

(26:09):
we were to all show up our fullest, authentic selves,
I don't know. I don't know if people be ready
for that, right, I don't think ready for that. So
I think we have to be honest with ourselves with
what we mean. But absolutely we'll be right back with
more of my interview after this quick break. So Jason,

(26:38):
you you you have had a journey, think about what
are the things you wish you had known in certain
parts of that journey, and talk to our audience about
two or three of those things that you wish you
had known. This Wow. Um, I wouldn't say it's it's

(26:59):
anything technical, right, not nothing academic or anything skills wise, really,
because you're you'll develop those when you develop them. I
think the number one thing was confidence, right, believe in myself,
Believe in in the fact that what I had to
contribute was a value somewhere, whether it was at the
organization that I was in or maybe another one. But

(27:20):
really kind of believing in myself in that way. UM.
So that trusting myself liked so much so that I
tattooed that on my hand here as a daily reminder. Um.
Another would be the power of relationships and mentorships and
but more importantly, more specifically, how to develop relationships. Right.

(27:40):
So you know, oftentimes when we seek out mentor mentee relationships,
we think about, oh, this person is a senior person.
They can open doors for me, they can give me
advice and all that. But I think what makes that
relationship work is how much you deposit into it. Right.
So a mentor once told me, make more deposits that
you do with roles in your relationships and you'll be fine.

(28:02):
So I think that's something that, um while, I've learned
and I've always kept close to me over time, and
something that has proven time and time again to be
the one of the most important lessons. Um. And then
the third thing is just have fun. You know, I
think we forget that. I've I've stopped saying life is short, uh,
because life is not short. It's all relative. Right. We

(28:22):
can be here twenty years, we can be a hundred
here hundred years. It really is what we do with
that life and that time that we're here. So I
think life more appropriately appropriately is finite. Right. We know
it will end, uh, and but we just don't know when,
and so in that time frame might not have fun.
You know, enjoy what you do. Uh. And and I
don't believe and I don't subscribe to the notion that

(28:44):
in order to make a great living and good money
you have to, you know, struggle through a job that
you absolutely hate. You know, it is possible for you
to make a great living and still enjoy what you do,
but it takes a little bit of work on your
hand to to figure that out and how to you
and how and align yourself with that and so you know,
it's not just gonna happen from one day to the other,

(29:05):
but it is possible. So I would say those are
the three things. And and Jason, here's the final question
I'm gonna ask you for today. Uh. And a lot
of young people ask me this question. And I know
you're inter mentoring, you're you're you're into helping black men
define hard work. Oh. I wish I had a more

(29:27):
eloquent answer to this, but I'm just gonna say, simply, um,
doing your best, uh, doing your absolute best, uh, even
if you don't have all the answers, but doing your
absolute best, showing up yourself, UM, not cheating the process,

(29:47):
not shortcutting the process. If there is a skill to
be learned. If there's a lesson to be learned, dive
in do the hard things. I think that's another part
of hard work that we often uh don't really consider,
which is what builds confidence over time, is accomplishing difficult things,

(30:08):
right or what you think are difficult things, and when
you look back on that, you're like, wow, I did that,
and then that's another you know, piece of building block,
so to speak to your confidence or it's really doing
doing hard things not shying from them that over time
build confidence. Um, and it is and it's hard working
and of itself. So I would say that that's you know,
I might have a different answer for you tomorrow when

(30:29):
I think about it a little bit more, but I
think that's what comes to mind right now. Well, we're
gonna have you back at some point in time to
continue this conversation. Thank you so much, man, I appreciate this,
wishing you a great twenty two and uh, anytime you
want to come back, let me know, and I'm gonna

(30:49):
reach out to you when I want you to come
back and talk about this subject matter and uh blueprint
and your organization, uh uh, the lives of men. We
should get together and partner on some activity, listen, whatever,
whatever you need. I am at your service. Good brother, good,
thank you for having me. I mean, this has been

(31:10):
an honor and a blessing, um, you know. Congrats to
you and all the work that you're doing as well.
Um and by all means, whenever, whenever I can be
of service to you, you can. You have my number,
you have my contact and because I'm looking forward to it,
all right, thanks man, and have a great year. Appreciate you,
Appreciate you.