Carl Stubner

Carl Stubner runs the management company Shelter Music. He personally manages ZZ Top and Crowded House and has been involved with Fleetwood Mac and other acts. This is his story as well as the story of the management group he is growing.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Leftsett's podcast. My guest
today is Carl Stubner, CEO of the Shelter Music Group. Carl,
what is the Shelter Music Group?

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Now, that's a good question, Bob. We're still trying to
figure that out. Now. We are a management company that
started right like two months before COVID's hit, and so
we've built this company over the last whatever that is,
three four years. In the first two years was hard
to keep it going, but I had this attitude that

(00:43):
in bad times grow faster, you know, and I just
kept on bringing him managers and signing more bands. And
we went from fourteen bands to seventy bands and a
staff of five to a staff of thirty. So that
is I've been over the last four years.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Okay, well, let's just go talk me through the transition.
What you were doing exactly before Shelter, What the vision
for Shelter was, Why was going to be different?

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, as I think, you know, I was at Sanctuary
at the end of the run, right and then Universal
bought it and I ran Sanctuary Management for Universal for
a couple of years until I just had to get out.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
It was not the right environment for me, and I
don't think they shared my same vision of what a
management company is and how to survive a management company.
And so I left and then I kind of did
some other management company stuff with some other people, but
I was getting bored and I happened to be out
on tour with Fleetwood Mac and Hartwick, who was the

(01:49):
chairman of BMG at the time, came out on the
tour to say hi to me and check it out,
and he's witnessed what we did as managers really for
the first time, real managers, you know. I think we
playing Boston and he asked, well, how much did the
band pocket, you know? And I told him the number
and he said, well, how much did you get? I said,
I told him the number, and he said, I want

(02:11):
to be in your business, no risk, just upside, okay.
So I said, all right, well, I don't know if
I want to sell my company. I'm not sure even
if I want to grow it. At that point, you know,
I was happy managing Fleetwood Mac's Easy Top and other bands,
and you know, I was getting older, and I was like, well,

(02:32):
maybe just fade out with those bands and that's enough.
And so he kept on calling me no, no, no, no, no,
you don't need to sell the company. I'm going to
invest in your company, okay, and we'll just investor, you know,
just providing capital to build a new company and do
somewhat of a roll up. Eventually I said yes, So

(02:55):
we did that twenty nineteen in November October, and you know,
we shook hands. He invested in it, and three months
later COVID hit. Okay, so business shut down. But my
whole thing was, you know, in the depression, the Kennedys

(03:17):
really succeeded. You know, it was like those are the times.
So there were a lot of managers out there that
needed support because they were making no money and they
had great bands, but there was no one working. So
I went to them and said, hey, why aren't you
come in and I'll guarantee you money. And so I
built this and then you know, we thought COVID would

(03:38):
last six months, a year or whatever, and it just
kept on going. So I went to Hartwick and I said,
I am not going to furlough anybody, I'm not dropping anything,
and I'm going to grow even more. So I need
more money. And he said, hell yeah, great idea let's
do it. And so he did that and we kept

(03:59):
going and going, and then we broke through COVID and
we had debt because we took money, and we're finally
at that point where you know, we're a cash positive
company and uh successful. And it took two years to
dig out of COVID, but now it's working and we
have great bands and great managers, and you know, the

(04:21):
whole thing in the beginning was, you know, the only
reason I really am willing to the only way I'm
willing to do this heartwik, is that I want to
make this company like no Oether, a big management company,
and we don't need to name them. They are what
they are and they're great, you know. But I didn't
want that. I wanted to go back to my roots
as a music fan when I was young and build

(04:46):
a company. And this is a I use this expression
all the time and with people, but I really had
this fantasy of doing making a company where music was
why we were there, not the paycheck, okay, and make
it like this thing in the early early seventies or
late nineties of Rolling Stone magazine where they're sitting in

(05:08):
one room and they all care about one thing, and
they share ideas. You know, maybe that's not what Rolling
Stone was, but that was my vision of Rolling Stone,
you know. And so I said the online to it is,
if I do it that way, we're there for the
right reason. It's not about the check. It's about the
artist and finding great artists and doing the decisions or

(05:31):
making the decisions that are right for the artists, not
right for the management company. Where at Shelter excuse me, Sanctuary,
it was a totally different thing. You know, they were
making deals with managers for what act they had at
the time. I did deals with managers who I believed
in and eventually they will succeed or they'll continue succeeding,

(05:52):
and that's working. So it's a totally different environment. And
our you know, we are a fraternity of managers, support staff,
et cetera, you know, shared services whatever, that really care
about each other, trade ideas, aren't competitive on who we
sign realizing one person's been the other, don't take it.

(06:15):
Don't worries about the company, not the individual. And people
bought into it, you know, And I'm like, okay, so
that's kind of the philosophy of the company, if that
makes sense.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yes, Okay, BMG. What's their ownership position, what's their deal?

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Well, the deal's changed since Heartwork left, okay, and that's
all in this that's something I really don't want to
talk about.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Well, let me put it this way. Are you the
owner along with BMG or is every manager owner? What
is the ownership structure?

Speaker 2 (06:46):
I'm the owner. I was well heart Will Heartwik was there.
I was sole owner of the company. Okay, So he
was lending you the money, lending me the money on
a return of profits, right, non callable, you know. So,
and then Thomas Coolsfeldt came in and he had a

(07:07):
different direction, you know than Hartwork did. So things got
different and we're talking now, and you know they for them,
for them relieving me of some of the debt. They
have an ownership, but I'm a majority owner. I don't

(07:28):
answer to anyone. It's my company. BMG has no say
and never have of what we do. Okay, who I sign,
who I bring in as an employer or a manager?

Speaker 1 (07:39):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
So it's always been me running it with no one
they answered to. Now that that might be why they
have a problem with it now, because different chairman, you know.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
So, Okay, what is the deal with the managers traditionally,
like with most of these, I give you a check
you aren't it out, and then it's fifty to fifty
of it. Is that your standard dealers.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's just that's those aren't accurate, exactly accurate numbers. It
all depends on the manager.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Okay, every manager might get a separate deal, a different deal.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
I make it deals directly with the manager. There's not
there's not a blueprint of what the deal is because
some people need lesser, some people need more, and some
people earn more and deserve more or whatever it is.
So it's all it's all based on the individual, the
individual's needs and they're projections when doing the deal, so

(08:33):
they're you know, different than a lot of management companies.
I don't charge the managers for office space shared services.
That's something I from my side to provide a better
service for the manager in return, and that then extends
the artist getting better service, whether it's a radio staff
or asset staff or social media whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Okay, let's get down to the nitty gritty. You make
a deal with the manager, and it's basically a percentage
of net, and NET just has to do with the band.
And the manager not with shurance services.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Right, so I make a deal. Let's I'll do a hypothetically, right, Okay,
ignore the numbers. Okay, but mister manager, I want you
to come aboard.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Are you in?

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yes, I'm in, all right? What do you want to
get as a advance draw whatever it is? What do
you need? And then what kind of staff do you need? Well,
I need an assistant and myself and I need to
make such such dollars and assistant such such, and you
have to pay for my insurance, which I'm happy to

(09:46):
and then they recoup that amount. And then once they
recoup it, it's a straight split. And the split is
depending on the person and how bad I want them,
how bad they want in, you know, or what's fair
to them, what's fair to me?

Speaker 1 (09:59):
So okay, what is in the pot? Then at the
end of the day, that is split at whatever percentage
it might be.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Well, it depends, you know, it depends on the cost
of the individual manager. So when you say pot, what
do you mean by pott?

Speaker 1 (10:16):
I mean so the shared services are not in the pot?

Speaker 2 (10:20):
What?

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (10:21):
No?

Speaker 1 (10:22):
So what is in the pot?

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Not think? But they're hard costs nothing but their salary,
their teeny their insurance, and their employee that the assistant.
That's it. There's no add on costs, so all they
have to do is keep recoup those three things. Basically,
they said, I pay for the shared services. It doesn't

(10:46):
It doesn't charge back to the individual managers.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
What am I going to get in shared services?

Speaker 2 (10:52):
You're going to get radio, You're going to get asset developers,
you're going to get social media people, You're going to
get streaming people, you know those that type of thing.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Okay, tell me how this is different from red Light.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Well, I've never worked for red Light, but I've heard,
but it is my understanding. Anyone can correct me if
I'm wrong, because I could be that they make the
same deal I just said, but they add on costs,
whether it's office space, shared service contribution, all those things.

(11:37):
So I didn't want to do that. And maybe it's
foolish for me not doing that, okay, But it was
more the philosophy of the company, okay, And maybe that
lessens my profit at the end of the day, but
I'm okay with that because I'm in this still after
all these years, to have fun, enjoy the people around,

(12:00):
care of people, no different than how you take care
of an artist. You take care of a manager. You
develop them, you help them, you know. That was my thing.
I wanted to cultivate managers. And then there was a
point two years ago that I said to a couple
guys at the company. I said, the problem, the problem

(12:21):
here is we're not developing young managers. We're developing young acts,
but no young managers. Who's going to take over one?
We're going not necessarily at the company, but in the industry. Okay.
So I started this incubator team of kids and gave
them a draw and over the two years, they're all succeeding.

(12:43):
They recouped, they make money, and they're great. But I
had to teach them. So I spend more time working
with these people, opening doors for these people, you know,
guiding them when needing needed guiding, and that's working. And
that's kind of what I do for the established managers too.
I help them with things maybe they're not familiar with,

(13:04):
whether it's a television show which I've produced shows, you know, whatever,
those type of things, and or branding opportunities. You know,
I've had restaurants, I've had wines with my artists, I've
had clothing companies whatever, Okay, So I have relationships. So
I help even the established managers to open different relationships
to provide a better service for their clients. So I

(13:26):
manage the managers, you know.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Okay, in terms of your shared service staff. How many
people is that? What's the head count?

Speaker 2 (13:35):
It's not that big. It's five or six people.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Okay, let's go to your farm team, so to speak. Yeah,
how many developing managers are you working with?

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Just three? But I only have a total of twelve managers,
so you know that's thirty percent.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Okay, let's let's let's stay with it. If you have
those three, is it the same three or are you
rolling them over?

Speaker 2 (14:08):
It's the same three right now. But I add to it.
I will add to it as these as these guys
go up. Then I bring another level in and they
just you know that it hasn't happened yet, no, because
it's been two years and it just got to the
point that my lit Mitz test, you know, the proof
of concept is proving that it was a good concept,

(14:30):
you know, So now it's time to start looking.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Okay, where did you find these three?

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, one is my son who was working who was young,
who's twenty seven, but when he started twenty five, but
he had been working for Live Nation up in Chicago,
h running like the Aragon ball okay at a young age,

(15:03):
great kid, you know, like me, a college dropout okay,
but had a thirst. And the other one was my
nephew who who was Mick Fleetwood's assistant for like three
years during a big tour during the whole period, so

(15:24):
he learned that kind of you know, relationship. And my son,
Jackson grew up with me managing Fleetwood Mac and on
the plane with us, you know, his whole life as
a kid, so he knows how artists think at an
early age. So now it was really teaching these two
cats who knew how to deal with artists, talk to artists,

(15:46):
respect the artists, teach them the business part of it.
And so that was what the two years was basically.
But then they went out and signed all these bands
and some I helped them with some I didn't, and
whether they were established bands or identifying talent very young
and getting him up to There's a kid that they

(16:08):
managed called Hunter Mets who was just signed by Interscope
and Sony ATV Publishing and is touring and has an
immense amount of monthly listeners and it's just blowing up.
And they showed him, they introduced me to him in
a room where the guy had three people in the audience,

(16:30):
and so they introduced them to writers, to all this
collaborators into a world and now it's blowing up. All right,
So there's a z the learning curve. Okay, getting it.
Then they have some bands from the the late early
two thousands, you know, like a Hinder or a or

(16:55):
a bands like that in fuel and those say they
bread and butter bands because those bands still tour. Okay,
So build your business kind of like I did, and
you don't need to do it this way, but this
is the way I did it was I got established
bands right away, and then you start working on the
development because you need to be able to afford to

(17:17):
do the development and you also want to live and
pay your bills. So get those bands and then in
that period develop bands at the same time.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
So, okay, who's the third person.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Third person I'm not going to say right now, but
it's there.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
And wait, wait, wait, just I don't need to know
exactly who this person is, but there's someone who started
two years ago.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Who's also are he caman?

Speaker 1 (17:41):
And he is doing essentially with the other two.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
He is working with that team.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Okay, okay, let's go back a step. The five people
insured services? What exactly do those five do?

Speaker 2 (17:55):
A lot of them do crossover stuff, But basically what
you're trying to do is cover radio assets because you know,
in today's world, you've got to deliver so many assets,
visual assets, you know, online, YouTube, whatever, TikTok So, there's
a person who does assets radio. There's a streaming specialist

(18:18):
okay that works with the streaming companies. There's a touring
component person you know who helps And now that I'm
talking so slow, I forgot the other one, but I
come up with it.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Okay, Okay, I'll come back to you. Okay. Q Prime
has a dedicated radio team. Is that something? If I
go with you, I'm going to get the equivalent service.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Let me go back the other way before we get
back to radio and streaming. Ay, you say you have
twelve managers. Now, how does it ultimately happen? Do you
hear about somebody is somebody shopping? How does it go?

Speaker 2 (18:59):
You know, in the beginning it's different than now Okay,
we'll tell me both.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
So in the beginning, it was I would identify lone
wolf managers people that worked on their own okay, not
part of an infrastructure business. And in today's music business
you need so much help because it's management is so
much more time intense, and your job description is so
much different than what it was when I started. So

(19:26):
I can help you because I have an infrastructure and
you can use my services too. We'd like you to
come in, you know, then you sit down and talk
and you do the deal. Now more people are coming
to us, you know, looking for a home or leaving
a major company, some that you have referenced to get

(19:47):
a different situation.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Okay, to what degree is there someone who's saying, hey,
you know, I don't want to work independently anymore, and
it's making the rounds and talking to everybody, and you're
part of that picture. Yeah that happens. Oh yeah, yeah,
so you're pitching me. Okay, I'm talking to the other
big companies. What is your cell? What is it that

(20:11):
you say?

Speaker 2 (20:12):
The sell is totally the environment of our workplace, the
services we provide, and me as a person.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Okay, someone like Irving always takes fifteen, doesn't have a contract.
Other people take twenty. They get it all on paper.
Does everybody have the same deal with the acts in
your company now? No, Do you have a philosophy about that?
What percentages and whether we have paper?

Speaker 2 (20:39):
I think yeah, paper is not always easy to get,
you know, And so it really depends on the thirst
for the manager or the artist, okay, because every manager
we have or every artist we have is a representation
of what we are. Okay. So sometimes no different than

(21:00):
buying cars or in cars are more expensive. I don't know,
you know, but it's it's I don't like working with
this or nothing. It's all about, hey, dude, I dig you,
let's do it. We'll figure it out. We'll figure out.
I dig you, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
You know.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
So it's that kind of related. It's a hippie in mentality,
you know. It's like it's it's I do and it
could be the wrong way to go, okay, but right
now it seems to be working. But it makes me happy.
And if I'm not happy, I don't want to do
this anymore other than you know, fleevand Macro, dis ease here,
Crowdhouse or whatever.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Let me ask you this. Do you have enough money
so you don't have to do this if you didn't
want to?

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, My people in my personal world, business world, personal
business world, wonder why I do this? You know, why
are you doing this? You don't need to do this.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
He is all the money you have from representing artists everything. Okay,
I started, I started. I started my company in a
one bedroom apartment with my wife and a new child,
and from there it just kept on going. Just to

(22:11):
be clear, what year are we talking about.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Well, I started in the mail room at Gallan Morey in.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh wait, wait, well let's let's hold that for a second, because.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
When I was in the one room. Okay, ninety two,
ninety three.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Okay, let's go back to some of the things you said.
You talked about your young team signing someone who had
a deal with Inner.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Scope, yet who didn't have a deal, who was inempenent.
We were putting music independentty but now has a deal
with Okay.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
In the old days, the record company was an integral part. Okay,
would you sign an act? I realized everything is different
because you have different managers, et cetera. But talking about
general philosophy, how important is the label partner at this point,
and is it necessary.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
I don't think the I don't think the label is
important to you need real muscle or real funding. Okay,
So as far as the development, I think we're more
equipped to develop than anyone. We know that the artist
is not one dimensional records only. It's a truly a

(23:19):
management of three to sixty, not like the three sixty
the labels talk about. My goal when I sign an
artist is not putting out a single and having success.
Mine is having ten years what's in twenty years? You know,
and building a career. And really that's where the rewards
come in. It's not off a single. You know, it
might be too a label because they monetize and do

(23:41):
things differently.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Okay, not every act is a major label interested in right,
if you found an act that does not fit into
one of their slots, would you still work with the
actors say there's no deep pocket, I'm not interested.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
No, we would work because there's ways to put out
music obviously, as you know in today's world that can
get attention without without going through traditional distribution or or
traditional record companies. You know, it's it's it's different. And
then I think if we really believe in that artist,

(24:20):
the labels will come and at that time we'll decide
if that's the right direction or not. I will sign
an act or I will encourage my managers to sign
an act based solely, not on algorithms or streams or monthlies,
you know, on your belief or my belief in that
artist as a human being, as an artist, you know,

(24:40):
and and that they share a vision, you know. And
so that's how we.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
So theoretically it could be a Klesmer artist.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, And theoretically yes.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Right, Okay, let's go back to breaking down some of
these things. You have. Radio, How important is radio today?

Speaker 2 (25:02):
One, it's very important to the artist, Okay. Whether it's
important in the big picture, not as much as it
used to be, obviously, but the artists still sees in
their mind radio and important thing. So I have we
have a band, okay that's on the Active Rock charts,
and it's had three number one singles on the Active

(25:24):
Rock chart on one record, and we're about to have
the fourth single. No one has fourth single, the fourth
single number one that is solely no, I won't say so.
That's that's from the efforts of Tyson, who's had my
radio apartment. Okay, he works it. He's on the road
constantly for and he does all our bands. You look

(25:46):
at artists like Scott Stapp and yeah, Creed is on
fire right now. And we bot when Scott came back
to me because I worked with him earlier on and
he said, I really haven't had six sess since being
with you. Dude, will you manage me again? I said, no,
I can't manage you, but this guy my company can.

(26:07):
But now he's got the highest ranking single he's ever
had in his career, you know, because of what we're
doing and how we're doing it. But okay, go back
to the band with the four number one singles or
three with potentially the fourth, Okay, is that changing their streams?
Their download is their record not physical record sales? Not

(26:30):
that much?

Speaker 1 (26:32):
You know?

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Is it helping their touring a little bit more okay
than the other things. So it's really about and it's
it's all John of specific how you have to market
and break a band, Okay in the active rock world,
which is still somewhat touring driven. Okay, And it's not

(26:55):
a When.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
You say touring driven, you mean that's where the revenue
is or across pollination with the radio.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, that's where the revenue is really, you know, and
that's how the band survives, and so you know, in
other formats it's totally different. But talking about this one example,
they're touring goods bigger and bigger. They open up for
bigger acts, or they're headlining bigger venues, you know. And
so that's the goal because once you get a loyal
fan base that buys hard tickets, your career can go

(27:24):
on and on as long as you don't screw your
audience or do stuff they don't understand.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
So just because you mentioned it, what might an act
do that the audience doesn't understand.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
I'll tell you there's a there's a lot of things.
But if you if you go to a show and
you know five of their songs and you love those songs,
and you go to it, but they drop a new
song that's a disco song, their fans react and say
that I'm not into this. You lost me. You're not
who I thought you were. And this is a terrible, terrible,

(28:00):
crass example. But the reason McDonald's is so successful is
you know what you're getting when you go to McDonald's.
There are no surprises. You don't want to surprise your
You want to do better and better music and keep
putting out music because that's you know, legacy evolving. All
that's fine, but the genre switch is a very difficult thing. Okay,

(28:21):
So stay true to who you are and who your
audience is or you jeopardize losing your audience. Now, if
it's so important for you to go into the disco
world in this scenario, I don't know why I see disco,
but what the hell? And you know there's that risk,
but you still decide to do it. Well, that's your choice,

(28:43):
then okay, and we'll stick by and let's keep on
trying to make it work, you know. But usually those
relationships will go sou because then they're not satisfied because
they didn't break in that genre, the new genre, you know,
And so it can happen. I haven't really experienced that
with any of my personal bands that I manage, but

(29:05):
you see it when when you have a band and
there's one band member who's bored with what they're doing,
so they're going to go out and do a solo project,
and that solo project is so far removed from what
the band's image was and music was that their fans
show up from the band and go to the solo

(29:27):
show and it's totally different things. They don't come back,
So now you've got to build a whole new fan base,
usually at a later age that's almost impossible.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Just to be very clear, you're saying in this typothetical,
I have a band five members were active rock type people. Right,
I make a singer song right around, let's not go
totally up to Okay, you know see it's you know,
hip hop pop whatever something you know you can sort

(29:58):
of see. While I'm a musician, I make a quieter record,
and I make the record and I go on the road.
There are examples Todd run Green is run into this
where he goes on the road. Even though he tells
people I'm not doing the hits, I'm doing X, they
still come expecting the hits. But with this scenario, I

(30:21):
do my singer songwriter record. People know who I am.
You are saying the negative experience that we're proposing is
going to impact the band's business.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Ah, maybe not if there's separation, but it will pack
the potential success. But there are examples where my theory
is wrong or what I'm saying is wrong. You look
at Stained and Aaron or you and he goes in
the kind of country space. He did a great job.
And not that I'm a Stained fan or anything, but

(30:56):
watching the business of it, he did it, So you know,
so that is you know, that is one of those cases,
and there are other cases.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Well, let me just be very general, Okay. The hardest
thing today is to get traction at all and to
get noticed. And it's not driven as you're you're putting
radio down towards the bottom of the pyramid, and it's
not driven by the traditional methods. So once you gain traction,

(31:35):
to what degree are you saying advising the artists? You've
got to stay in the same path. Dude.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
First of all, I'm not putting radio way down there,
and I don't want anyone out there to think I shut.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
It out right, Okay. I got somebody working there, so
it's important.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
And we have bands that work, can we let and
record radio stations have been very good to us, so
with all due respect, but there are other ways to
do it. Okay. So what was your question again, because
I focused on that one line.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Oh okay, let me say, is a lot of words
for a general, let me enter it a different way.
There are some managers who are completely transactional. I realize
you have twelve managers and none are going to be
the same. Some say to the act, you deliver the
record and I'll take care of the rest. Others want

(32:25):
to sit there and discuss with the act where the
record is going, what they're doing. What kind of manager
are you me?

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Personally? I discussed with the artists. I'm very the bands
that I personally manage, right I am very close to Okay,
extremely close. I'm a well, since you're the manager, let's
just name those bands. Yeah. With zz Top, I'm extremely
close to the band. To Bailly, he's doing a solo

(32:55):
record right now. He sends me a song. Every time
he's done, we talk about it. I'd say, well, what
about this? What about that? And you know, stay on
course once again, stay on course, you know. So that's
you know, one example, Mick Fleetwood, who I've been around
for thirty five years, managing Fleetwood, Mac, managing Mac, et cetera.

(33:19):
He is doing this crazy record and this is kind
of out of what we're talking about, but since you
bring it up, but he's doing this record and what
happened when we ended the tour in twenty nineteen, the
last Fleetwood Mac tour. He's bored. He goes back to
his house in Maui and he's doodling on the guitar.

(33:39):
Eventually but ukulele to start and he's writing these songs
and they're really rough, you know, really rough. But he's
sending like five hundred a day to me in the
middle of the night. Okay, you know, hard to follow. Okay,
hard to follow, especially for me. But he has this
guy he communicates with, which this guy named Carl Fok

(34:01):
who's the Swedish producer that's part of the Max Martin
world all that kind of stuff. And he starts listening
to these tidbits and he's like, these are fucking amazing.
These are amazing. We need to get together and let's
write songs. So Mick and Carl write ten songs and
record demos of him in mixed studio and Maui. Keep

(34:22):
in mind that Mick had been in Fleetwood Mac for
sixty years whatever it is. No one ever has asked
him to write a song, right, No one asked him
if he could sing. He's singing on this too. I
mean we have other singers. Nobody's singing. No one ever asked,
including his manager Carl. No one said Mick write a song,
So shame on me, shame on everyone. These songs are

(34:43):
so amazing, and we have big name artists doing one
doing a song each on the record with Mick doing
some of the vocals, or one song mixes the whole vocals,
He wrote the whole music. So aa level artists, okay,
are all doing this. So I'm very involved in finding

(35:03):
those other ones. I'm involved in the songs, which ones
we should do. So going back to that original question,
you know, it's like it's that way or you know.
Then there's Neil Finn, who is, first of all, a
wonderful person, Okay, like a really really wonderful person who
I really like and I got to know when we

(35:25):
asked him to join Fleetwood Mac when Lindsay left, and
we built a great relationship during that tour, you know,
and we talked about me working with him and I
agreed because he was He's so talented. I mean, this
guy is incredible. So that relationship has blossomed that we're close.
I was staying with my family and his family and

(35:46):
his Greek compound on this island, you know, vacationing, and
he was at my wedding and sharing his wife is awesome.
So we're family, you know. And I become so close
to my clients that no one, no artist needs another friend. Okay.
But if you get along with them, you almost become
like a brother. Okay. You fight like a brother, you

(36:08):
love like a brother, You loyal like a brother, okay.
And that's really how it works with me. And fortunately,
my personality gets along with these people, you know. And
it might have to do with how I was brought
up or whatever it is, or how I moved around
the country my whole life because of what my dad did,

(36:29):
you know, all this kind of stuff. So I can adapt,
you know, and I adjust.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Okay. Tell me about saying something to the artist that's
negative or they don't want to hear.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Well, you usually don't just say it out right. You
got a plan, okay. So it's really like, you know,
you're going back to music, okay, and an individual artist Okay.
Use that as the example. So Tommy Lee, okay, Molly

(37:01):
could CRUs not really happening at that time, and he
has issues with you know, the past thema, his actions,
his behavior, and he's really tired of talking about. Okay,
go write a book, and you be honest in that
book and tell him every answer to every one of
those questions, and you will not have to answer that

(37:24):
question again. He says, No, I'm not doing that. Now
you're doing it.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
You're doing it.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
I know the right writer who you'll understand. He'll be
tongue in cheek. It will be great, but you're being honest.
And if they ask you again, say hey, read my
book and walk away. And so he didn't want to
do it. He did it New York Times bestseller, written
with Anthony Bozo, who's fantastic, who also did Slash his
book for me, and Mick Flee's book and a few
others maybe and my thing I was doing. And he uh.

(37:53):
But then Tommy after that, you know, didn't want to
do the television show, which was you know, Tommy Lee
goes back to college. Yes, corny, but I wanted to
make him. I wanted to humanize him, okay, because he
wasn't human. He was known for smacking whatever and whomever
and all that shit. So so no, we're going to
do you know, an NBC television show, and Middle America

(38:18):
is going to not only see you as who you
are portrayed in the tabloids. So he's hating that idea.
But we come up with the idea. You're going back
to college, you're going to live in a dorm, and
you're going to join the swim team. What do you say?
You know? And he goes, well, if I don't want
to do that, well, how about this idea. You're going
to become a mayor of some small town in Kansas,

(38:40):
some small town in Kansas, and you're gonna be dealing
with parking tickets Fourth of July celebration, whatever it is. No,
I'll do the other one. Okay, we're doing the other one.
So that's to your question. You know, it's kind of
turn it around the other what's the alternative? Well, there's
not Or Tommy, I want to you know, I want
to make electric music. Okay, you know, and that is

(39:03):
not going to be easy, and you're fan base from
Molly Kruz will not come over to that. But that's
your choice. And he did it and he loves it,
so he does it out of his own musical passion,
and you don't want to stop that. Okay, So but
there's other things. You know, every artist I have is
that there's that time where there's that conversation you know,

(39:26):
with all of them, you know, and a lot of
the ones I don't want to bring up because yeah,
I'm loyal to my artists and clients and I don't
you know. But Tommy's okay, because he's a wonderful guy
and we talk about it. You know, he's great, and
I don't work with him anymore, but I still love him.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Okay. Let's go back to Mick Fleetwood's record. Yeah, in
the pre internet era, you get this record, the record
company would stir up all sorts of publicity. There'd be
a single that you would start probably on rock, reed
you try to cross over to pop or maybe late
ninety start on pop. There might even be a video.

(40:05):
Most of the acts of his generation don't even make
new music, and a lot of them that even the
biggest acts Elton John got a lot of publicity with
Brandy Carlisle put out the record. If you check, the
stream streams are anemic.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
I know.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
Okay, So what do you do with somebody like included?

Speaker 2 (40:26):
First of all, you go into the project realizing those
issues and those problems and making it clear to the
artists that these are the issues. But we should still
make this because it's important for you and parton for
your legacy, important for you. Letting people know whether it
sells or not is not as important as how it's reviewed,

(40:47):
how it's thought of, Okay, and look at it that way.
Now cut to the realities of how you do work
it once you do put it out. Well, on this
particular record, it's self financed, okay, and when it's done,
which is soon, we'll go out and get a traditional
record deal, okay. And then how we're going to work
that record okay, because radio is meaningless, although certain artists

(41:13):
that we have on it it could work big time.
So it's really just to be clear.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Do you have pop artists.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
We have pop artists, we have country artists, we have
urban hip hop artists.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
So cornicle wall genre you cover.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's a cornicop yes, say yes, a collage.
But this record will live by single download streaming world only.
It's not going to ever sell like a record, you know,
because this pop artists their fans don't go along with

(41:49):
the country artists. Okay, So each individual record single song
is a different release and that's how you do it.
But at the same time, yeah, you look at the
Dolly parton record, Okay, didn't do anything. There was so
much hype on that, right, you know, nightfully, So she's
a great artist, you know, but it didn't do anything.

(42:10):
Compilation records don't do anything anymore, you know. Soundtrack records
bear a few do you know. But that's it And
this is no different than that. So it's a song
by song effort, and it's utilizing the social media of
those individual artists every time we put out a record.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Leit wait wait wait wait. So we talked second ago
about making these records this important part of the legacy. Okay,
But the way you're talking now is you are looking
to get lucky. Lucky sort of makes it sound like
you're not making any effort. I'm trying to say, you
are trying to create sparks that might create a fire.

(42:54):
You're still trying to do that.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
You don't give up, you know, you still try for
the success because is that truly will even enhance the
legacy and maybe create future projects like this for him,
for that artist. Okay, And so you want success because
also the amount of effort we put into this. You
want to see some return.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
You know.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
We're doing a documentary around it with a great documentary team,
and we don't know when that will come out because
I've got the Fleetwood Mac documentary with Apple with Frank
Marshall directing, So we've got to hold back on that
or make it.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Let's just stop for a second of Fleetwood Mac. How
does the management work? Okay? Howard Kaufman is dead. Irving
represents Stevie. No, No, Irving doesn't represent Okay, how does
it work?

Speaker 2 (43:47):
It's over the term that over the time I've been there,
it's changed, okay, based on death.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
You know.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
So my mentor mentor was Howard Kaufman. Sure, okay, because
he could have tossed me at any time in the
early years of Fleetwood Mac. Carl you in the way bye,
I'll tell Fleetwood we're getting ready to you or there's
no tour because I have Stevie right, Okay. He never
did that. He let me do my thing. He didn't

(44:17):
always believe in what I was doing, but it ended
up paying off what I was doing. So they looked
at it from different eyes, and he taught me a
lot but so back then it was just Howard to die. Okay.
Then Lindsay hires Irving as his solo manager. Okay, now

(44:40):
Irving's the picture. But Howard passes away. So then Stevie
for her solo stuff stayed with Sheryl Lewis, who worked
for Howard, because there'd be a conflict with me because
I want Fleetwood Mac okay and so. And then when
Lindsay Laughed left, well, Irving didn't have any artists in

(45:02):
Fleewood Max, so he was no longer involved and it
was just me. Okay, but I've always been there half
and half one tour or a third and then the
whole type of thing, you know, So it's always changing.
But a tenth of Fleewood Max is an amazing thing.
So I'm happy, you know, I had I never had
an issue with that, and they never had an issue

(45:25):
Irving Howard. They've protected me my career. You know, we
get along. I love Irving. He helped me get out
of Sanctuary with the Universal. He was the one who
did my deal to get out with Lucien. And you know,
they're good people to me, and I'm loyal to them,
and they've helped me in my career, and it gets

(45:50):
it gets a bit difficult with fleetod Mac when there
are so many people involved. But the last tour it
was I was the Fleetwood Mac man. Cheryl Lewis was
involved because she's Stevie's manager, Okay, Mick and John on
the trademark the name, so that comes with me too, Okay.
So it's a complex thing, but it's been an awesome thing,

(46:15):
I mean just awesome.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
What did you learn from Howard Kauffman, Slow down, Carl Wisdom.
He was a different kind of manager than me, though,
you know, I just learned to be cool like him,
because if you knew Howard, you know he was a
guy who is never on the microphone or in a picture,

(46:39):
you know, or doing press. And one thing I learned
from him was I was going to be the same way.
This is really my first podcast ever and that there
was another interview the other day which was my first
interview ever after thirty five years in the business. Whatever
it is, you know, it's like I never wanted that,
you know, and I think that I think that that's

(47:02):
how Howard was. He was always he came from a
financial background, accounting background, Okay, so he taught me a
lot about that which I didn't know that much about.
But I learned from him, and I learned to pay
attention of those to those things. And the other thing.
He was always like, don't overthink it, make a move,

(47:24):
just do it, just do it. You know, any decisions
better than no decisions, kid, you know, and that kind
of philosophy, you know.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
And little since you're close to Irving, what do you
can learn from Irving? Really?

Speaker 2 (47:39):
How he's really an amazing businessman, okay, you know, and
not coming from a business background. I learned a lot
about business. I learned a lot about having an opinion,
who you trust, who you don't trust, you know, staying

(48:00):
close to the people you trust, and never screw with him, never,
you know, because if you screw with a guy.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Like that, you know.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
But I don't know, I don't know specifically, but I
know if if I if I call Irving right now,
he will pick up the and he'll call me right
back and he'll answer any question or Irving, I have
someone that needs to get into UCLA right away. All right,
I'm calling them now. I'll call you right back. Boom
they're in. You know, He's just that guy for me

(48:31):
and for many people. I'm sure I'm not exclusive to
Irving's attention. There are a lot of people, I'm sure.
But he's that guy. He's on it. He doesn't sleep,
you know, and he does, but I mean bigularly, and
he's available to me. That must mean to everybody twenty
four to seven. He's the work ethic, you know, it's incredible, incredible,

(48:55):
and I don't think anyone can reproduce what his work
ethic is.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Let's go back to some of the core issues of
the services you provide. Tell me about streaming. Anybody can
get their song on the service. What is your philosophy
with playlisting, marketing other things with the major services?

Speaker 2 (49:23):
I don't know. I think that's a question which would
have a different answer every month you ask that question.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
I'm asking right now.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Okay, Well, playlists aren't as important as they used to be. Okay,
just to be clear, because because people aren't listening to
it like they used to. Okay, and you know, every
artist wants a certain playlist or a couple of specific playlists,
but then you get them and it really doesn't move

(49:51):
the needle that much. And although you still want to
have it because it's at tension or it's a stat
you know whatever. Okay, I think everything's driven by unfortunately
not YouTube. I mean, excuse me, TikTok Okay, TikTok. You know,
but certain demographic don't understand TikTok, so it can't help

(50:17):
those people, but it can help the younger people. And
it's so of the moment, and it moves so fast everything,
And you know, that's why I have shared services people
to educate me, because what the hell do I know.
I'm just an old dude who's been managing for a while,
who has amazing artists, you know. So that's why I
brought this in if I was going to grow to

(50:37):
have that, so someone could advise me or advise the
managers who are a lot smarter in that world than I,
you know.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
So give me your snapshot of TikTok.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Annoying.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
But I think it's annoying on a business level or
annoying on an experience.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
I think I'm both. Okay, I think and on the
experience level, that's only a personal opinion. On the business level,
it makes it very tricky because what works on TikTok
isn't necessarily what works for me and my beliefs of art,
you know, of art, okay, And so there's a conflict there.

(51:18):
Then you talk to a legacy artists say we'll go
on TikTok, Dude, what the fuck am I going to do?
And then all of a sudden they're like doing it,
and yet they're trying too hard and it's not coming
off naturally and it doesn't work, or he needs it
more scripted and drawn out, or she does and it
just doesn't work. You know. But kids doing you know,

(51:41):
machine gun and Kelly type stuff or you know, whoever
and who are so persistent in it can really have
an impact, you know. But you can't get a a
bono and obviously I don't manage bono, but an artist
like that or Stevie or whatever to commit to doing

(52:01):
delivering three assets a day that lives on TikTok, they're
not going to do it, okay. So without that impact,
it's not going to really work. So it's it's got
to be dedicated and the artist has to be dedicated
towards to that for TikTok to make the movement, the
bar movement all so okay.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
You know, for years now, acts have had social media teams.
Oh yeah, I'm posting on Facebook. You know, I'm putting
up stuff. Hey do you still do that? And to
what extent be when it comes to like TikTok, do
you say, if you're not doing it yourself, we're not
even gonna do it at all.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
I don't know if I say if you don't doing
it yourself, we're not doing it at all. I say,
if you're not going to partner with us to do
it and provide access and the energy to do it,
then there's no point in doing it. Okay. What was
the other part of the question.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Well, I think that kind of answers it, and okay,
so let's assume you have an act. In the old days,
there weren't many opportunities outside the music, and then in
the late sixties and seventies, the philosophy was we're not
going to do endorsements, not going to do sponsorships. They're

(53:16):
going to hurt us. Now there's some classic examples here.
I mean, the Beatles set the trend, not because they
knew what they were doing, they just did it. But
then you had people conscious like Neil Young said I'm
not going to do it, and he maintains credibility. The
other three do not, even though certainly Steven Stills has

(53:37):
incredible talent. David Crosby now dead. Okay, so what is
your philosophy with an act saying sponsorship, endorsements, merge that
kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, well, first of all, TV changed the world, okay,
of how artists look at that, and then the Internet
changed the world how you look at it? And I
think it's hard. If the brand you're associate the brand
the artist is associating with makes sense for that artist,

(54:14):
it's great. Okay, it's great. And or the business they're
getting in makes sense for that artist, I think it's great.
I think that if Fleetwood Mac did a Jack in
the Box commercial or whatever, it would kill It would
be bad, just bad, okay, But if they did, if

(54:35):
a McK fleewood did a Louis Vuitton like Sean Connery did, Okay.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
That won't hurt.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
I mean because he's a traveler or whatever.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
You know.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
It's like, it's like that, and I think, you know,
the sponsorship of tours is pretty much going away, you know,
because they didn't do anything for those brands, but building
lifestyle or products that make sense for that that individual
band is good, I think. And what it does is

(55:03):
it protects the artists from living in a cyclical world
of dropping music touring, dropping music touring, you know whatever
it is, okay, and it builds a business for them
that continues. And if you have a brand like a Zeezier,
Fleetwood Mac, those are worldwide recognized image in Nay, okay,

(55:24):
how do we do that? So Mick Fleetwood did Fleetwood's
on Front Street in Maui. It was extremely successful restaurant.
People loved it. He would be there every night like
a matre d you know, he'd play when Steven Tyler
was don Maui or whatever. They get up and jam.
And we had a restaurant that was doing probably top

(55:46):
two restaurants in all of Maui, you know, revenue wise,
and then the fire burned it down. Heina, but it
was a great asset to Mic. You know, it was
a perfect environment for him. So was a wine because
he was in the rest from business. He outside of wine, okay.
You know with Tommy Lee, we did the television shows.
We did a t shirt line, a G line, Jane

(56:08):
line that made sense for who he was. That's what
he wore. T shirt ripped off T shirts and you
know whatever. So it was okay, you know, if you're
talking about if you're talking about Adele doing a.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Okay, wait wait, wait, let me stop you. I think
your concept is clear. A manager only gets paid when
the act makes a deal. When the act is making money,
agent the same thing. So, certainly in the twenty first century,
it looks like a lot of people have made deals

(56:44):
because the percentage partner is gonna get paid, especially in
a world you're dealing with a lot of legacy acts,
especially in the world where the acts come and go,
the business people remain and they say, I'm gonna take
this money off the table. Okay, I'm gonna do this.
They never say the artist, no, not good for your
career whatever. What's your take.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
There, Well, I think that's selling your I think that's
selling your artists down the road if you take it
just because there's money involved.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
It's never that black and what.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
It is to me though, it is to me.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
But give me tell me something you told your artists
not to do. God an actual example.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
I can't think of one, really. I think that there's
been there's been examples. But oh, one of my older
artists a huge paycheck for cialis commercial. Nope, don't do it.
No I should do it. No, don't do it. Wife,
Yes you should do it. I say, no, you're not
doing it.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
So the act wanted to do it, Yeah, but I didn't.
Can you tell us how much money was involved?

Speaker 2 (57:55):
No? It was seven figures. And then there're what about
z Eezy top cut your beard, Gillette, Well to a
commercial cutting your beards off and we'll give you a
million bucks. Okay, We're not doing that. Guys, it's foolish.
They agreed with me, but I mean they come in
and I don't sell them on it. I'm like, hell no,
I don't need that money. That's the beauty of how

(58:19):
we set up this company because I didn't need the money, okay.
And I'm not bragging about money, but I didn't need it, okay.
So everything we do or I do, is really about
doing what's right, enjoying it, and what's good for the artist.
You know, it's not about me.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Okay. Well, let's stay with some of the deals that
are offered these legacy artists. What is your viewpoint on
selling your rights, publishing, royalty interests.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
And yeah, we've sold I've been involved in a bunch
of sales, okay, and it all depends on the individual artist, okay.
And I think if the artist is sixty five or older, okay,
it makes a lot of sense to do it from
a financial standpoint. But a lot of deals, you know,

(59:10):
when you make that deal, you have to have some
ability to veto what they might use your product and
what's your music. And I've been fortunate too, by way
of relationships to put those stipulations in an agreement. And
it took a while because we'd fight back and forth.

(59:31):
But there's also stuff I put in an agreement that
if we overperform in any one year, they still get
a percentage passed through to them, even though you own
one hundred percent of it now okay, So there's safeguards
you put in there. But they're collecting the money up front, okay.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Just to make the numbers easy. I'm over sixty five,
I'm only selling and publishing selling it for a hundred minus.
Just to make the numbers of you. You're saying you
have a clause in the contract such that I can
get paid again.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
The band can get paid. Yeah, yes, and not in
all the deals I've achieved it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
When you've achieved that, how is that clause written? Because
if for no other reason, you know, you can have
a big year because you're featured in an end title
on a Netflix show. In In addition, there can be
steady increases because of new avenues of monetization with you know, Twitch, discord,

(01:00:34):
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So how do you
actually construct something like that?

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
You just merely say you're buying this on an average
of the catalog that you're selling makes a millionaire? Okay,
a millionaire anytime we go over a million a year
in revenue that you've collected, we get a piece of
that above a million.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Okay, just to be clear, how big a piece might
it be depends on the artist. I mean, is it
five percent? Is it twenty five percent?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I gotta calculate it because I just got another check million.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
It's it's like, okay, now they're not buying these assets
and one thing that people buy them there other than merk,
maybe all these people are very sophisticated financially. They're making
the money, so they're expecting to both get their money

(01:01:35):
and make more money. Otherwise they're not going to do
it right. Okay, so there's a issues of inflation. Be
give you an example which you don't represent, but I know, okay, Toto,
they didn't sell, but they're just like this, all of
a sudden, Wheezer does Africa and it blows it up

(01:01:57):
with your contract. I'm going to get with pulling the number,
I'm gonna get thirty percent of the upside. Let's just
assume that stays at a high level.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
And it keeps going. But that's why none of not
many companies would have done that. It was a relationship
thing that they did with me. Okay, I don't have
that on online.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Okay, but let's just say in your particular case, the
number that you get in excess, let's just make it easy.
You see a million dollars, so you're making a million dollars.
Now over a million, the act gets thirty percent or
ten depending on the Okay, we're just talking. I know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
But what about my y Okay, you put it just
to be just to make the numbers easy. So you
went to middlebary digit, Yes I did.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
We can talk about that. But let me just finish
this point. The million dollar floor would not inflate. It
might last for thirty years.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Yeah, well that's the risk. The thing was they early
on on these deals three years ago, whatever I ran
was okay, it was about market share too. Okay, it
wasn't about just business. It was market share and press
releases and saying then that would gather then. So it's
a lost lead or whatever you want to call it.
But that could be the case. You know. The other

(01:03:13):
important part to the artist is some creative control or
veto right, which some of the agreements have that specifically
written in it, some don't. But then it's a relationship
because if you're just selling the publishing, well, I'm never
going to prove the master then, so you're not going
to get it anyways. Okay. So there's a lot of

(01:03:36):
ways to protect. There's a lot of ways to enhance,
get gather more or save you know, save the name.
And it's not in a political campaign. You know that
you don't believe in it. Okay, So there needs to
be this.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Oh okay, when you've made these deals, how much have
you done the negotiation and how much has the attorney
done in the negotiation.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
Managers not allowed to negotiate.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Okay, Well, under California law and no, but it's a
manager for resident.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
I'm a Tennessee resident actually so.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Yes, but it's got to do where the contract is. Really.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
But but the thing is is I'm I can say
I'm very hands on. I find the deal. I don't
negotiate it, but I set the parameters of the deal
and what we're looking for. And then the attorney gets
involved and comes back to me and say, Nope, not
doing it that way, doing it this way. They call me,
they work me talk to the attorney, and I go

(01:04:37):
back to the attorney, you know, and he's doing the negotiations.
But I'm very involved my attorneys. Uh, and we have
a lot of great attorneys, you know. But I go
get the deals. Okay, I get deals. I don't rely
on on whomever you whoever, big name attorney to find
me deals. I do them all myself, you know, because

(01:05:00):
that's and you can draft it and you can do specifics.
But I like making deals and I like going out
and chewing it up with the guy. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
It's like, okay, let's switch gears again. So your anchor
in Fleetwood Mac is Mick Fleetwood. How did you get
connected to myth Gleewood.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
A great story. You know, it's unbelievable. You know, when
I worked at Sandy Gallen this is right around right
before then, I was fortunate enough to work for a
guy named Barry Josephson. And Barry left Gallen Morey to
work for Joel Silver, the film producer. He was working

(01:05:41):
on an artist named Andrew Dice Clay. Okay, so all
of a sudden he leaves. I become close to Dice.
Dice convinces me to leave Sandy and be his director
of development because he had a we were going to
do a film deal, television deal, director of touring. He
was selling out Madison Square Garden and run my business

(01:06:02):
like really a manager's job. So I took that job on.
We had huge, huge success, and that was my first client,
you know, And it was like an experience because it
was in all businesses. Somebody who in mixed business manager's
office knew me and was telling the story of my

(01:06:24):
success with Dice. And keep in mind were a lot
of people involved. Okay, so I'm not taking away, but
what I did and how I got in and I
was young, okay, road and so he goes, I want
to meet this cat, So I get this call from
a business manager says, hey, Fleetwood wants to meet you.
Will you come in? Yeah, I'll be there tomorrow, no problems, problem,

(01:06:46):
what you are we in? Let's see, I got to
go back to Clinton Clinton ninety four. I guess, yeah,
ninety two, Okay, ninety two, Okay, thank you. So that
was ninety two, and Fleetwood and I sit in a
room with his then fiance to be ex wife at

(01:07:06):
some point, but a wonderful woman. Okay, she and our
friends still. But within an hour of leaving the meeting,
I get a call and I go, Fleetwood's hiring you
come back or whatever. I go back. He goes, here,
here's what we're doing. We got the band the Zoo

(01:07:27):
out okay, which we're selling pretty good records, that band
that was happening, And he says, but my dream is
getting Fleetwood Mac up and running again. How are we
going to do that? So I came up with this
plan and we ended up doing the dance, which was
the MTV special five million records Tour of the year,
you know. And so in my way working with Fleetwood,

(01:07:50):
we got everyone together. Okay, how I did it? I
don't really want to sing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
I'm going to jump back before it jump forward. Now,
let's say you're involved in selling somebody's rights. Seemingly all
your big acts you were not there for minute one,
you know, zsy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Top, none of them Bokay, so I was forever last,
but he fired me, right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
So what it comes to an act that's had a
forty year career and you're selling the rights of the publishing.
How do you decide what the commission is? Is it
your standard commission?

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Now I give him a reduction because they're getting forty million,
fifty whatever it is, you know, off of one person, okay,
in a band or it was easy, it was the
whole thing, but the whole band. But I reduce it.
But it's still a substantial percentage. And I think I've

(01:08:55):
been really fortunate with my clients that they were willing
to always take care of me. You know, if you
look at ZIZI. I've been with zz for seventeen years,
how many managers you know, except for a few, you know,
Tony demitriotis Petty, Dave Matthews, and but there's very few.

(01:09:17):
And they're loyal and I'm loyal and they know that,
you know. And and these were all done during COVID,
and it made sense, and I'm happy they did it,
and I and I did very well during COVID.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
So you pull the number out of your ass, how
do you get a number to sell it for? No?
Your percentage?

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
It's a conversation just between that person and I.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Well, no one likes to give up money.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
They I don't know if that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
I don't want to get into artists. One thing new,
I won't talk about artists. That's not necessarily true. No, No,
here is the story with artists. This is the one
and only thing they can do. Their name is on
the marquee. You can always get another act. You're behind
the scenes. There's for desperations, got a negative quality. But

(01:10:15):
the nature of these acts at that core they know
that somehow, and they're not like regular people. They wouldn't
have become that successful without it. That doesn't mean they
can't be reasonable. But these are not your everyday.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
People, clearly not. But what's your question then? At what's
your point?

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Well, I think you know. I don't think there's a
specific question there. But let's go back to think.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
I can only speak about my experience, okay, and my
experience is that all my clients have always been fair
to me, and they have never except I feel little
small things, ever questioned. And then and then I'll go
to them and say, hey, you know what to be fair?

(01:11:05):
So and so I'm not going to take fifteen percent
across on this. I'm not going to do that, Okay,
but I will take I do think I deserved this much.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
So you won't toss out an initial number on a
huge p day.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Yeah, or some people of some artists, based on a relationship,
say what do you think is fair? And they might
say that I said, well maybe this, well maybe that
the okay, cool, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
I no, have you ever had an experience with the
artist says well, this is what I think it was fair,
and it's less than you think is fair.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
No, no, no, And I'm not bullshit. I'm serious. It
hasn't happened to me. I've been lucky. I take it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
You know, you know, let's go back to Fleetwood Mac.
I know on some level you said they didn't want
to get back to what do we know Fleetwood Mac.
They performed to Clinton's inaugurations, singing don't stop whatever? What
was the impediment? John mcviee's seeming legals show. Well, we're
doing it, we're doing it. Okay, he's there with Mick Mix.
More of the business guys managed the band for an

(01:12:06):
interim there. What was the hang up in getting them
back together?

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
I think it was just individual lives. I think Stevie
was doing her thing, Lindsay was doing his thing. And
at the time they got back together, Lindsay was in
the studio making a record, and at that he had
a manager at that time, and they called a manager
and I said, hey, why don't you get Mick and
Lindsay together. You know, Lindsay's had a lot of success

(01:12:32):
with Mick in the studio with him and Mix not
a producer, but he's a vibe you know, he's a
vibe guy, and he knows the sound and all that.
So maybe you have him come down and let's talk,
you know. And so that happened, and then all of
a sudden, well why don't we get sell and so down?
Why don't we get sell and so down. Then they're
all in a room, you know, recording on Lindsay's record.

(01:12:54):
Then you're out there looking at opportunity. Okay, let's go
to a promoter and see what they pay for a
fleeting back tour. So I did that without the band
really being aware of it, but just to see so
I could be honest and educate the band. Why not,
you know, number was insane. I wonder if MTV would

(01:13:18):
do a special if they got back together. I can
remember Howard, I think it was Howard. There's no way
that will happen. Okay, well let me just see, you know.
And so it happened, and it made sense that they
did it and became and they did they all got
it and did it. We recorded a concert. We peppered
the audience with current artists too, to make it look

(01:13:39):
you know, make they were fans, but to make sure
people on television realized, you know that this is cross genre,
this is cross demographic, okay, whatever it is. And we
did that and cover Rolling Stone popped up and just
kept on going, you know, it kept on okay.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
But generally speaking, the members of the band were saying,
if the numbers line up were in it, you didn't
have to do any arm twisting.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
No, there was some politics, but not arm twisting. Christine
was in right away because wonderful person, you know, and
just she didn't want to ever be a She was
a person that didn't want to be a star. Okay,
respect to that, okay. And she didn't mind sharing the stage.

(01:14:22):
She wasn't about going doing another solo record, you know.
So she was just sitting there in her castle and
Edinburgh or whatever the hell it is, you know. And
John's out on his boat crossing the Pacific, you know,
and Hi cool.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:38):
Mick eager to keep his band because he started it
in the sixties. That's all he's ever known is sleeping back,
you know. It is it's more than a band, or
it's more than making money. To him, it's what I do,
you know. So he's in. And then Lindsay and Stevie
have their solo projects and both very successful. So how
do you find the time to get into their schedule

(01:14:59):
based on their success? And it just worked out.

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
Okay. You said that Mick was at your wedding. That
would imply that you've been married multiple times.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Well, no, Mick was only at Mick was at my Yes,
I've been married three times. One time was for two
months right before I got married, right before I start
in the mail room. Okay, that lasted two months because
I got in the mail room, met Dice left. Okay,
we're still friends. Okay, we're still friends. Then my other

(01:15:30):
wife was the mother of two of my boys. We
got married in Vegas after a mix show and we
did it like at the Elvis Chapel or one of
those things. And it was Fleetwood who put the whole
thing together. And it was like Beck and Bramlet, Dave Mason,

(01:15:50):
all these people were in the audience all, you know.
And we got married and she was pregnant at the time,
and they made me marry her and I was happy
to and I shouldn't say maybe, but they created it.
And so he was at that one. He wasn't at
this last one, which was in twenty January twenty twenty

(01:16:11):
with Dana, who I share a four year old son.
So I have I've had three boys. Neil was there.
Neil Finn was at that one.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
The second marriage. How long did that last?

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Twelve years?

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
And why did that end?

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Because my career was blowing up and I wasn't the
best best husband. I was a good father, I thought,
but I think but I was gone the whole time.
I had influences around me that made me a little crazier,
you know, and my priorities might not have been in
the right place. And we still talk. You know, everything's

(01:16:55):
I you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Okay, So the present wife Dana, When and how did
you meet her? It's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
It was fashion week in New York City. Zz Top
was playing the John Varvados show. There's a cat named Jordan,
she who ran Geffen, you know. And I was in
his office one day with Pete Jorn okay, and Jordan
pulled out a picture of his wife and next to

(01:17:22):
the wife was this girl, stunning girl. Who the hell
is that? And she goes, oh, that's Dana Rossi and
I said, wow, I want to meet her. And so
they hooked it up because she hadn't been be in Philadelphia,
where her parents were live, and she took the train
up to New York to come to the party, got

(01:17:43):
her hotel room. Because we didn't know each other, but
I just wanted to meet her, you know. So she
came in for the night.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
She was a model. What was she doing?

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
She was not a model. She owned a boutique in
Santa Monica called Dame and she's stopped. Yeah, she's really American, Italian,
American or whatever you call it, but really beautiful. And
it started there and she didn't like me in the beginning,

(01:18:12):
and I had to work on it and it ended
up and then we ended up getting married. And now
we have Rome and our four year old son, and
we live in Sun Valley, Idaho, and still have our
home in La, office in La Nashville, home in Nashville,
office in Nashville. But my four year old goes to

(01:18:33):
preschool in Sun Valley at a school called Community, which
is amazing school. And that's where they are all the time.
I'm there all the time unless I'm traveling on business.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
I end up in Ketchum.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
When I the end of from ninth grade to graduating
high school. I live in Seattle, Okay, and Ketchum harbors
a lot of Seattleites, especially back in the day less
now now because more draw there. When I dropped out
of college Eastern Washington State College, I was a skier

(01:19:09):
all my life, you know, I was. I went to
private school in East Coast where we ski all day.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
And where'd you go to private school?

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
I went to private school in New Jersey, actually a
school called Farbro that had uh it was like a
school without walls, and so they had this guy John
franz And who was part of the Swiss ski team,
who was a teacher. So he would bring me up
to Vermont and we would study till nine and then

(01:19:35):
I'd ski with him, and then we'd go back study
some more, and then we'd crash out and did that
for a month like every year type of thing. Okay.
And I was really into skiing, and so in Seattle,
I was really I was a teacher in tenth grades
teaching skiing, and and so I dropped out of college
and I said, well, I'm going to work in Seattle

(01:19:58):
for a little bit, figure out what the hell I'm
going to do. But then I said, I'm going to Sunvalley,
going to Ketcham. So a couple, me and my friends
go to Kitcham. I immediately get a job running Trail Creek,
which was Hemingway's ex fishing cabin. Okay, so I'm running that.
I'm young, you know, and they let me work nights
so I can skiet during day.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
I was one of these setups, you know. So I
loved Ketcham.

Speaker 1 (01:20:22):
And what year are we in?

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Eighty eighty one, I think? And I loved Ketcham, and
I left Ketcham to move to Vale, Colorado. But I
always knew at some point I was going.

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
To wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, this is you know
you speak in my language. Why did you leave Sun
Valley for Vale?

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
Well, we were trying to think figure out a long
term plan for Carl, meaning my dad and I am home,
you know, and my dad knew. My dad knew the
president of United air Lines. At that time, United Airlines
owned Weston Hotels and they were opening up brand new

(01:21:05):
Weston Hotel there. And why doesn't Carl become head of
food and beverage down in Vale Because he loves the
ski and he loves the mountains. They gave me that job.
I moved down there after two and a half three
years and Sun I moved down there and did that
for two years. But once again, I worked at nights
pretty much, so I skied every day.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
Okay, let's go back to the beginning. How did you
end up in Sun Valley? Now?

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
Oh, like I said, I was drempt of owning a
house there, and then h COVID hit and really before
everyone started moving out of La I went up there
on a vacation with my wife. Okay, and it's a
good place to get away, open air, it'll be cool.

(01:21:51):
So Rob my real estate I call him up. He
wasn't my agent. Then this is the guy I meet,
you know, to sell some to the house. I go,
here's the deal. I only got two more days here.
I'm going to look at every house, every house, and
I guarantee you I'm going to buy one. So show
me thirty houses in two days. He goes, Okay, dude, okay,
you showed me thirty houses. I bought one. We closed

(01:22:13):
a month later, and then Dana and I went up there.
It was August. Then Dana I went up there, said well,
let's get out of la and go to the new
house and open it up. And then we just never
left because Dana fell in love with Sun Valley catch them.
I always dreamt that that was going to be the plan.
We all learned how to work remotely, all right, Well,

(01:22:34):
when COVID's over, we'll figure out what we do. Well
COVID's over, I still couldn't work remotely. My clients live
around the world, not in La. Record companies are not
that important to me, or I have other people to
do it so it's easy. So I keep my house
in LA in Nashville, as I said earlier, and I
less two weeks ago in Nashville, freight days here in

(01:22:55):
LA for three weeks, and I go back to Sun Valley,
and then I'll come back four weeks later.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
Generally speaking, in a year. How much you in Sun Valley, LA, Tennessee,
just on the road. How does it break down?

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
Well, if you factor in on the road too, you know,
outside of LA, and add that in the outside of LA,
in Nashville, in Sun Valley, figure doing it, probably sixty
seventy in Sun Valley?

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):
Okay? To what degree you know, there are other people
in this business who live in Sun Valley. To what
degree are you integrated? Are you just in your own world?

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
Here's what it started, that I wanted to be in
my own world, okay, and then people start talking that
I'm there and they don't really know me, but they
want to meet me, you know, that type of thing.
And then you know, for the first three years we
were secluded, okay, and then your sun starts going to preschool,

(01:23:56):
people start meeting you in restaurants, talking to you, and
then they start calling on you, you know, and they have
an idea you know or whatever, and so you get
involved in other things and all of a sudden Hebert
a Fred you know, and you're walking down the street
and you know people and it's kind of a personality

(01:24:16):
I have too that I'm not. I'm not a dark
corner guy, you know, kind of kind of bright you know.
And so like we did that, we did the ear
Skiar the World Cup final. We're in sun Valley this year,
sunvill Catch them. These two people, the guy owns the Whiskey,

(01:24:37):
which is one restaurant brand, and Jenny Dupree wanted to
do a festival during that period. So they come to me,
they say, will you help us? We want talent. You know,
we don't know what we're doing in that side that respect,
they knew how to plant it. Okay, all right, fine,
I'll help. And I put together all the entertainment and
the show and it was a big success to the show.

(01:25:00):
You know, I don't know financially, but the event was successful,
you know, first time festival successful. So then I met
all these people around there and they saw what I
was helping there, well, will you help us with this?
So it kind of snowballs and you know, people, but
the people are awesome there, you know, and it's like
it's really cool, you know, and it's really really unique

(01:25:22):
gathering of people. Funny story off subject. Okay, when I
first moved to La from Utah because I failed to Utah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
Then La, you moved to go skiing in Utah? Yeah? Yeah,
what'd you do in Utah? For how long?

Speaker 2 (01:25:37):
I've worked in Salt Lake at the Hotel Utah, which
was which is a morning and they had a rooftop
restaurant called the Rooftop and there I met Robert Redford
eating or do O eating or whatever, you know, because
it was the only real spiffy place. But it didn't
open till like six. So I'd got a park city skiing,
you know, or wherever sundays Alta, you know. And so

(01:26:04):
but I wasn't there that long. I was only there
for a season.

Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
Season.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
So I go to LA and I need a job.
I moved to La not knowing anyone, not one person,
not one person on my own, and I'm staying at
a Western hotel because I had free room nights. And
I go in I apply for a job at the
Ruth Chris Ruth's Chris Steakhouse in Beverly Hills, Okay, and

(01:26:28):
the cat who owned it was a dude named Paul
Fleming who was from Arizona via New Orleans, Lafayette. And
they hired me. And that's where I met my first wife,
by the way, she ran the place. Okay, So so
I worked there, get in the music business. Blah blah blah.

(01:26:48):
Cut to Sun Valley, Okay, catch them. I'm talking to
Brandon who owns the whiskey, and he goes, dude, do
you know a dude named Paul Fleming? Yeah, well I
was probably you up to him and he said you
used to work for him, and go, yeah, I used
to work, but well he lives up here too. Now
he goes, that dude thought you'd be dead by night,

(01:27:09):
but you were the best dress host they ever had
at a restaurant, okay, because I was always trying to
pimp and get in the world, you know, of entertainment
of the world, you know. And so now he and
I are in a restaurant, are going to be in
a restaurant together in some value, one of the classic
restaurants of all of Ketchum. And I don't know if

(01:27:29):
you've been to Ketchum, but oh yeah, Okay, where did
Hemingway eat his last meal?

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
A restaurant called Michelle's. He ate every night in Michelle's.
That kind of a frame thing. Okay, ate his meal,
went home, shot solf of the head. So we're dealing
with that, you know. So he's in business, but he's
just blown away, you know. He goes, are you still
did you ever? Mary Carey? Yeah? I did for two
months and he he was laughing, and it's like, it's

(01:27:58):
so amazing how you meet people you know or other
people you know or are you know. It's such an
eclectic group of people. And it's like any vacation place,
whether it's the Outer Banks or get Cut or whatever. Okay,
there's the haves and have nots, Okay, which makes it
difficult for the have nots because the prices go up,

(01:28:22):
you know. But they're cool too, because all these servers
I love, you know, and because I understand I can't.
I was a hustler, I get it, you know. But
then there's really successful people, you know, and which you
can learn from, you know. And so I have an
office in downtown ketch them. That's the shelter of Rocky
Mountain Office, and so it's it's fun.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
Okay, what'd your parents do for a living?

Speaker 2 (01:28:55):
I'm a I think we call it a corporate brat.

Speaker 1 (01:28:58):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
My dad, at the age of eighteen, was installing phone
lines in southern Illinois, no, no, outside of Chicago as
a job. He came from German immigrant family, okay. And
he won some award as a student in high school.

(01:29:20):
Then he met the president, and then he was working
for AT and T or Illinois Bell or whatever it
was called there, and they said, this kid's great. So
he went from installing phones to being executive vice president
AT and T, and in doing so, we lived Seattle,
we lived in New Jersey.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
Wait wait wait, executive vice president of AT and T
the national corporation.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
Yeah, before the divestiture. Before you know, this is not
a Celtone.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
There were a lot of steffs between installing fold lines
becoming executive view you know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
But went he worked for Illinois Bell, Pacific, Northwest Bell,
going up the chain.

Speaker 1 (01:29:58):
So what's his skill, because it's very hard to do,
ye know.

Speaker 2 (01:30:01):
His skill was he was very intelligent, but he was
a people person, and they kept on putting him to
more school at and t Okay. So he went to
University of Illinois, he went to special school at Wharton,
he went to Dartmouth for another part of his learning,
and they just kept on grooming this guy. And in
those days it was like that. It wasn't jumping companies.

(01:30:25):
And so he only worked for one company and retired
at sixty five his whole life. And so loyalty, you know,
and that. And plus mom was just mom, and we
had five kids, and she was able to move us
every two years and she took care of us and
it was wonderful. So I had a great background.

Speaker 1 (01:30:45):
So where are you in the hierarchy?

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
I'm in the middle, and what are the other ones
up to? Everyone's healthy and successful, you know. It's like
my brother James, the oldest. He is an attorney Seattle
real estate, Transactional real Estate. My brother Todd lives down
here in Los Angeles and does events, produces events for

(01:31:11):
like Nissan and stuff like that. But that's what he likes.
It's his independent, doesn't have to work all the time
and has done well. My sister lives outside of Anatchi, Washington,
the wine business, okay. And my other sister, Erica lives
on cape Cod, where we spent most of our summers.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
She has a house on Cape Cod. We're in gape Cod,
h Brewster. Okay, let me ask you this. There are
five kids in the family. Obviously, the older brother is
an attorney who graduated from college. Did the others graduate
in Podcasah, So you're the black sheep.

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
I am the only one who didn't graduate.

Speaker 1 (01:31:47):
But are you, generally speaking, the black sheep in the family.

Speaker 2 (01:31:50):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:31:51):
Okay? Why the music business or entertay? Maybe it wasn't music,
maybe it was entertainment. What was it at first?

Speaker 2 (01:31:57):
Well, for the two months or three months to college,
I was going to be an URTV major radio television major. Okay.
I was a high school DJ, you know. It was
DJing in college for those three months. But I hated college.
And I was a music freak, okay, and not because

(01:32:17):
I knew so much about it, but in high school,
every day after school we would find someone who had
a car. I would go down to a record store,
smoked up and thumb through the bins, you know, and
then hopefully once a month you could afford to go
to a shell and you'd stand in line at ten
am when the gate would open and you'd buy your

(01:32:37):
ticket then stand in line to the out door open.
And we were vested in our artists. Back then, it
was a totally different thing, and we didn't see our
artists unless you saw him live or on the back
of an LP, front of LP. Okay. So that excitement
of seeing Jesse, Colin Yell or you know whoever, you know,

(01:32:58):
it was just like Wow, that dude's cool, you know.
And so he bought into the art. I really bought
into it, and I loved music. So what happened was
I was working at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse and my brother
was down here and he opened up the Hollywood Reporters.
He came to my house and I'm on the roof
top of my place. I was living in Beverly Hills,

(01:33:19):
and he said, dude, look at this, this is you.
This is you. You got to do this. And it
was a catlecall advertisement for the mail room at Glamory.
So well, I'm getting married next week, just let's go
do it. So I go over there do it. I
was marrying carry Alice, whose father was herb Ellis, who

(01:33:40):
was a great jazz guitarist herbalus So Jim Moury and
Sandy both knew who Herb was and s yeah, I'm
Mary carry Alice Herbs. Well you're hired, dude. Sure, And
then I say to Jim. I go, Jim, there's one issue.
He goes, what's the issue? I go, I can't stop
for four weeks because I'm getting married. Then I'm going

(01:34:02):
to Saint Barts in Saint Martin's. Well you still have
the job for me. They looked at me, they said, too,
if you got some balls, I go, all right, we'll
hold the job for you. So I came back and
started the job, and things just happened.

Speaker 1 (01:34:13):
Well, okay, you're working at Gallan Morey at the time.
How many people are working there?

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):
I can count the offices cale pressman one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
eight nine to about about about fourteen, And what was
your gig mail room? I would go buy every desk
and collect the mail. Back then there was faxes, print
the foxes or copy the foxes. And then I would

(01:34:43):
get a call from Sandy's assistant saying, hey, you got
to go down to Farah Fawcett's house and deliver the script.
No way, dude, really sweet sweet or Streisand's house or yeah,
there's a great there's a great story. And you know,
I got a got hired for the wedding, but I
really started in November, okay, and Dolly Parton to a

(01:35:07):
Christmas party at Sandy's house all the time, okay, and
they would import snow from the mountains all this, and
so Sandy goes, hey, can you come to the party.
I go, yeah, for sure, dude, I'm there. And some
I probably was serving him a McDonald's hamburger, taking off
the pickle, so something like that. Menial shit. Okay, So

(01:35:28):
I dude, honey, I hadn't been divorce. Shit, honey, We're
going to Dolly Parton's Christmas party. We go and the
whole thing was no, he wanted me to work the
party the front door, and it was so embarrassing to me.
I was like, okay. But what happened was once everyone
was in, I went to a round tablet ten by
the pool and it was like quincy, all these people

(01:35:49):
and I just pretended like I knew everyone wast hanging
out with the like hey, how you doing. And so
it's a great story because it was so humiliating, but
I made the best of.

Speaker 1 (01:35:57):
It, exactly why did you break up with the first life.

Speaker 2 (01:36:02):
I went out with Dice on the road, and I
came back and realized I got too married too early,
and there's this whole new world opening up for me,
and I don't think I can really focus on this
when I've got this, and I really think I can
do this, you know. So it was a selfish kind
of move. But she didn't like the fact that I

(01:36:25):
was getting into the music business because her dad was
in the music business.

Speaker 1 (01:36:28):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:28):
She wanted me to be a restauranteur or whatever it is. Okay,
So I think she was relieved and we parted great
friends and she knows people in my world still, and.

Speaker 1 (01:36:39):
You know, it's all good. And I thought, okay, so
you're in the mail room. It's well known that's getting
your foot in the door. When do you actually do
more than deliver mail? And within a month and you're
doing what.

Speaker 2 (01:36:53):
Barry Josephson was still there, and he he did an assistant.
So he put me at his desk as his assistant,
which was a horrifying situation. A I couldn't type, okay,
you know, so I'm taking messages, dialing the phones back
in the old days, you know, rolling calls for him
and uh, trying to deal with problems that I knew

(01:37:17):
nothing about, Okay, because it happened to so quick, and
so I was terrible. But what happened was all his
clients loved me, so he had to deal with me, okay,
and and he was a very hard boss, but they
all were back then. You know, it was a different
world where they could abuse you, like, here's your Christmas bonus,

(01:37:39):
like one hundred and one dollar bills, Throw them on
the floor and I'll pick it up and get out
of you. That kind of attitude. Okay. There's that movie
with Kevin Spacey and what's his name about a guy
in the mail. Yeah, so that was really written by
the guy who replaced me at that desk. Okay, who
wrote that? So that was his experience. Okay, So it's

(01:38:00):
like that. But then Barry leaves and there needed to
be someone to help with his clients that stayed Dice, okay,
and so bye bye. Three months in that could be
off a month. Three months in, Dice pulls me out

(01:38:24):
of that office, says here with me. Oh, this is
gonna be fun. You know, it's a great I'm gonna
learn every aspect of the business over a year. You know,
I'll be involved in shooting Ford Fairley in the movie
for twentieth Century Fox. We have an ABC deal we're
going to get We're going out on tour. Dennis Arfa
great agent, is his agent, so I'm going to be
around him. Rick Rubin's going to produce the record. So

(01:38:46):
I got all this experience in a short period of time.
So I was fortunate.

Speaker 1 (01:38:51):
Okay, Dice had this unbelievable vertical ascension. Then he theoretically
got being from him to then he was over. Then
he came back, you know, on TV for a while.
What is misunderstood or what were the missteps by Dice?

Speaker 2 (01:39:16):
When I started with Dice were Here's Comedy Store, okay.
And then we did the Beacon Theater for New Year's
Eve for HBO okay, and that kicked it in. And
I was still an assistant for that HBO show. And
then it was January after that, and his his stick
was so unique and so raw and so offensive and

(01:39:40):
politically incorrect. Before there was politically incorrect, But there was
this change happening in the entertainment industry where it was
becoming politically incorrect, especially because the people that were running
the business, Sandy, Barry Diller, David Geffen, Okay, so he

(01:40:02):
wouldn't stop himself from going farther and farther. And also
what happened was we were doing what was it, the
MTV thing or whatever, and Dick Clark was producing it,
and I'm on the side of the stage. It goes,
we're running short. We need you to stretch your material,

(01:40:22):
and we had to clear the material with television because
he couldn't curse, okay, and it flipped Dice out, not anger,
just fear because he didn't know how to stretch. You know,
a comedian works on the tight ten or tight twenty,
whatever it is. So he had to ad lib and
he went into protection mode and went into the dark
stuff and cursing and you know, lighting Cerrante on stage

(01:40:46):
or whatever it was, and sudden the Redstone is dialing
in said get him off the stage. He's blackball bloomoom
boom boom. And from that point on it just kept
on crippling down, you know. But it was an amazing
running had and I got there. I had a lot
of fun with the guy. I mean, here's a guy
that got really fortunate, stayed at it, believed in it,

(01:41:10):
and once again McDonald's. You know. Theory is people knew
what they were getting when they went to his show,
and they loved it, you know, and he stayed to
that and he was really good to me and his parents. Freddy,
it was it was awesome to me, and you know,
it was just such an amazing experience. And he was

(01:41:33):
he was a good guy. He was basically a sober
guy out of just not trying to be sober, but
he wasn't partying and he didn't do anything, you know,
and so it was great. You know, it was a
great dealing with them. I had great footage of just
us on a tour bus together or whatever. It just
was a moment and it was fantastic. It failed because

(01:41:53):
he was put in a situation that he couldn't handle
and that was the beginning of the end. That night
was the beginning of the end.

Speaker 1 (01:41:59):
So did with you and Dice? And what did you
do next?

Speaker 2 (01:42:02):
Well, maybe it depends on who you ask. How how
I look at it is is that I we found
a comedian in Kansas City who did fairly well. Eddie Griffin,
Fast Eddie a bunch of Joel Silver movies. Stand up.
He's a great funny guy. Okay, we find Eddie while

(01:42:25):
we're on the road, Eddie. I'm managing Eddie. Now, Okay,
Eddie starts kind of happening. Dice is kind of you know,
slowing down. And he didn't like the fact that I
managed Eddie, and I said, well, fine, you know, love you, Dice.

(01:42:46):
I'm ag Eddie. And that was, you know, before I
got into music business. Really I was in the comedy world.
So that happened. Then the Eddie thing didn't work out,
even though like he lived in my office, you know,
and he was just starving, you know, and I'd feed
him and get his teeth work done or whatever, you know.
And that didn't work out. And so I was looking

(01:43:09):
for my next entertainment thing and it was a It
was with a guy named Matt Robinson.

Speaker 1 (01:43:15):
I don't know if you know Matt.

Speaker 2 (01:43:16):
He was a DJ and we had he had clubs,
portable clubs, you know, move around clubs, peace posse and
all these things back in the early nineties. And he
needed like a business partner kind of as he was unorganized.
And so he and I were working and we had
a club every Friday night on Pico at the Chicken Shack,

(01:43:37):
I think it was called. And a lot of celebrities
were coming to our club. We had great DJs and
it was kind of dance hall, hip hop, reggae kind
of club. It was cool back then. Chris Blackwell would
come into the club. So Blackwell gave us our own
record label, Peace Polsey Records, and there's an We signed Ikamause,

(01:43:57):
who was a dance hall awesome guy, crazy dude. And
I did that for like a year and a half,
two years, but the label never worked and I was
getting bored and restless, and that's kind of you know,
around the time I met Mick and and I was

(01:44:17):
working with some other another gal. We were partners as
managers type of thing trying to make and she had
Delight and I was doing some stuff for the Fix,
and then it was Fleetwood and then it just kept
on going, the Cult, House of Pain Everthelass, Boston White Take,

(01:44:38):
you know, Tommy Zzy, It just kept on going.

Speaker 1 (01:44:42):
So how'd you get involved with the Sanctuary guys?

Speaker 2 (01:44:45):
Merk saw that I was making money, you know money,
and I had very strong roster for a manager coming
into that place, okay, and he knew I I had
a big tour coming up with so he wanted to
buy into that revenue. So he bought in and then

(01:45:09):
made me co president with Peter Asher right down when
he bought in, and then Merk I had to leave, okay,
and they made me seeeo or champed to see you
of Sanctuary and it was really.

Speaker 1 (01:45:26):
Wait wait, just to be clear, when you start, is
already owned by Universal? No?

Speaker 2 (01:45:32):
No, I started when it was dealing.

Speaker 1 (01:45:35):
But it was already public when you were Yes, it
was public.

Speaker 2 (01:45:38):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:45:39):
How long did you work there before it was sold
to Universal?

Speaker 2 (01:45:43):
Five years?

Speaker 1 (01:45:46):
So tell us about Merk.

Speaker 2 (01:45:49):
Did you read his new Yeah? I did, Okay, Yeah,
he and I are two totally two different people, Okay,
as far as our philosophies, the way we operate, he said, dude,
that will always find a way to land on his feet.

(01:46:09):
I don't necessarily agree with how he ran Sanctuary, and
I wanted to make sure if I ever did a
company it was polar opposite of Sanctuary.

Speaker 1 (01:46:19):
Seriously, just to be clear, how was it run?

Speaker 2 (01:46:24):
He made deals based on the next six months year
with managers. Okay, not how great that manager is and
this isn't my opinion. He has done extremely well, so
I could be totally off. But he was not ever
worried about a year from now. It was really like

(01:46:45):
I said that quarter or that half year, okay. And
my philosophy, as I said earlier on, was long term,
long term. We can sustain long term. So that and
I questioned the other managers there, and I know a
lot of them and I like them, but you know,

(01:47:06):
it's like huh, and and we accounted to things differently, okay.
And so when he moved on the board, brought me
to London and asked me if i'd help them get
it to a point where we could have someone buy

(01:47:26):
it off the street. Okay, and I did. But murk
Is is a unique person. I think he knows music.
He's a music fan for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:47:35):
That's sure.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
He knows it, he cares about it. But there's other
influences in the way he conducts his business. Okay, that's
in his own head.

Speaker 1 (01:47:48):
Okay, let's go back. What's different now that it's sold
to Universal? What's different about working a Universal? Why do
you have to get out?

Speaker 2 (01:47:58):
I don't think at that point Labels Lucian understood what
I did, okay, and really understood the music business. I
think they were more a business once again of the immediate.

(01:48:18):
And I don't think Lucien ever understood why I would
manage is Easy or Fleewood Mac No No, find me
a Gaga, Find me a Gaga. Okay, forget the old mans,
but the old mans are making me a lot every year,
like more than looking for Gaga. That company won't sustain itself,

(01:48:39):
and then I'm fired. I don't want to do that,
you know. And it wasn't hard conversation. It was just
a different philosophical way of doing things. So I wanted
out and I got out thanks to help from Herring,
you know. And I just kind of did my own
thing with my bands that have been with me ever.

(01:49:00):
You know, it's like until Heartwick, you know, just knocked
on my door.

Speaker 1 (01:49:14):
Okay, let's jump to today. You're making a deal with
the label. You know, we went through the old school.
We went through twenty first century, three sixty deals. Now
there's leverage because you might have a TikTok success. How
have you found the deals changed? And what are the
deals today?

Speaker 2 (01:49:36):
Deals are one don't come with the same advance okay,
a lesser marketing commitment, okay, a lesser commitment to the
individual the artist, and you're really hoping you throw something
against the wall and it works, you know, but that

(01:49:58):
doesn't change how we think. But that's what the label thinks. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:50:01):
And you have to cough up any rights beyond just
the raw recordings, and you can you get those back?
Can you have re record? What are your deals like
with all this deal.

Speaker 2 (01:50:11):
The deals now are more licensing deals for a term,
a ten year term. Then everything reverts back to you. Okay,
and the re record rights followed that term usually.

Speaker 1 (01:50:23):
Okay, let me go back a step. You talk about, well,
I went to NBC. I'm doing this special. You're a
guy who works in restaurants. You say you're a hustler.
It's not like you grew up in the business and
your you know, your father's friends came to the house,
et cetera. No, how did you make these relationships and

(01:50:43):
how did you make these deals? And how do you
do it today?

Speaker 2 (01:50:48):
I learned quickly, okay. But how I was able to
function in that world? You know? Early on, when I
was in the restaurant business in La I would go
to the right places, and I happened to meet certain

(01:51:09):
people that were artists okay, that liked me and tagged
me along, okay, And whether it was hanging out Roxbury
if you remember Roxbury, you know, or whatever club, China Club,
whatever you know, and I was always there with the
right people. And they grew and I grew and a
group and I I look at myself. This is a

(01:51:34):
dis on myself. Okay. When I was a skier, my
name was in Carl. I was called c W, which
is my initials. My father called me that, my mother,
every friend I still have back then calls me that.
When I came to La, basically I changed to Carl,
and I put on an act just to be able

(01:51:54):
to fit in. But I learned that act by moving
around with my father, parents and family. Because when you
move from Seattle to Jersey, totally different. You're not You're
not wearing swabies, You're wearing Levi's and ducksiders okay, new wardrobe,
you know. So so I know I acted this role,
that I knew what I was doing, and that that

(01:52:14):
that I fit in with this culture, this world. And
in doing so, you open your ears and you hear
a lot of stuff, and you're willing to learn, and
you never pretend like you know everything, but you do
live in that world. And it just kind of worked
that way.

Speaker 1 (01:52:28):
Okay, let's assume your brainstorming in the office, we're virtually however,
you do it and you go, you know, we need
a TV special on this, or we need a movie.
You have the concept. Do you then work backward and say,
you know, I know so and so. Who knows so
and so will put me together? Where do you say? Oh,

(01:52:49):
that's Netflix, that's Hulu, that's NBC, this is the person
who runs it. Let me cold call them.

Speaker 2 (01:52:57):
Well, it can work like that, and it's also can
work that. If it's today not when I was younger,
it's different. So I'll call CI or William Morris and
this is my idea, put together ten meetings for me.
Then I'll go take the meetings. Okay. If it's you know,
if it was like Rockstar Super and Ova with Mark

(01:53:20):
Burnett at CBS produced, it came up with it with Mark.
It was not just called Mark, you know, and talk
to Mark about it, you know, because I'd met him
or whatever it was. You know, it all depends, you know,
where we're going with the project, what type of project
it is, and where it fits with the NBC show

(01:53:40):
it was. I hired a showrunner who handled them setting
up the meetings, and I would show to the meetings
because I knew how to sell what my view was,
and that's how it was done. I would show up
and I'd be there, and I'd come up and create it.
You know, you know, wine or liquor spirits. I know

(01:54:00):
people in that world, you know, So I'll make the call.
It all depends on what. But yeah, let me help
you get there. We'll get you there, you know. Okay,
one way or another, I'll get you there.

Speaker 1 (01:54:13):
Live Business today there are two behemoths. Live Nation is
very much in favor of making tour deals, being on
the other side of the fence. What's your philosophy.

Speaker 2 (01:54:29):
I think it depends on the act, and I think
it depends on the timing of when you're going out
and also the history you have. So in other words,
Live Nation has been very good to me with a
lot of my acts, but not all my acts. Two deals, okay,
one usually Fleevo Mac we deal right, but you know

(01:54:52):
there's deals that we don't take money. We just want
everything right. Everything, okay, and it works because you know,
you sell tickets. Okay, then with as easy. There's some
ag shows, there's some Like Nation shows, there's some independent shows,
and I won't do a whole deal okay, crowded house,
same thing, you know. And that's Neil's mind too. He

(01:55:14):
doesn't want to just be owned by Live Nation. You know,
we like Live Nation, but we're not on and we'll
do this and that and that and this with these
people and then the younger acts. We're not really making
deals with one agency. I mean, I know those deals
and I've seen them, and I see where they don't
work for the artists. You know, there's a there's a

(01:55:35):
big size band that did one, and those deals are
different thought the FLEETODMAC deals. I mean it's like, okay,
we get the next hundred shows or the same amount
of time, and we'll figure out when they are, where
they are. All that kind of shit. And it takes
these bands years to recoup. But what happened was their
business skyrocket. But you're living to that old guarantee. Not

(01:55:56):
a good deal.

Speaker 1 (01:55:57):
You know. Since the insolidation and professionalization of the live business,
how does that work to the advantage your disadvantages of
the acts.

Speaker 2 (01:56:10):
M hmm. I think there's there's, like you said, there's
advantages and disadvantage.

Speaker 1 (01:56:20):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:56:20):
It's like but with you know, Ticketmaster all that kind
of stuff, you know, and the way life nation is
with that kind of thing, it's potentially taking money off
the table for the band. It's really taking money away
from the van, you know. And but then again it's

(01:56:41):
how you structure those deals, you know. It's it's you
need to can't do that, you can't do this, you know,
and just negotiate it. But it's it's it's certainly also hurt.
What I think is the marketing of of the tours
of the bands. So you go up on sale, you
have a breakout, and then it's gone, okay, So you

(01:57:03):
shall generate all your revenue over a week period of time,
and the show's not for six months. Nothing happens after that,
even when you're going in market, unless you're stiffing, then
they'll put a little more money into it. Where when
Don Law or Golden Voice or whatever, back in the
old days, they would be firing stickering and there was

(01:57:25):
really a presence of that band coming, which helps record sales,
which helps everything else that's not there anymore. It's like void.
I go to a Fleetwood mac shown Chicago sold out
three in a row. But if you didn't buy a ticket,
you don't even know if they're there. Where before even

(01:57:45):
if you didn't go, you would see it and there
was present. Okay. So that's a lot of the problem
of the monumentality of how it is. But it's radio
is less important, so they don't win the radio. You know,
the Internet that's of the moment. So is it a
product of the way media has become or is it

(01:58:07):
a product of way a major kind oft promoter saves money?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:58:14):
Let's talk about it a Can you talk about Fleewood
Max an instant sellout? Let's use zz top? Did you
bring them up? Most of the gigs are non instant sellouts,
So how do you ultimately fill the building?

Speaker 2 (01:58:30):
We? Yeah, with zz we have an insane database, okay,
that we deal with. We don't give it to someone
and we're active in the database with our fans and
they're aware of it. We're not like blindsiding them, you know.
And that's a band that can still organically sell out

(01:58:54):
over time for some reason. Okay, are we doing that
much different than the other band now, but it works.
And Zzi is an interesting thing because here's a band
that does under shows here every year for seventeen years.
They've done it with me and they want it. It's
not manager saying to it I pull back, pull back

(01:59:14):
you no, no, no gigsters. You know, we're fucking gigsters.
All right, let's do it. We got to be creative,
we got to go into different markets.

Speaker 1 (01:59:21):
Whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:59:21):
But it's it almost becomes to a ZZ fan like
an annual thing. Okay, it's annual, you know, and those
fans are so loyal to that band, and yeah, and
we still you know, when I took Zzy on, I
didn't really understand z Easytop, not musically, I mean the

(01:59:44):
business I didn't understand. So I went to Houston to
the Houston Rodeo where they were playing in front of
sixty five thousand people, and I decided just to walk
the parking lot, you know, check out the vibe. And
because I was so focused on the coasts, you know,
and so I see a grandmother, daughter, husband, their kids,

(02:00:08):
like five of them walking into the venue, all ages,
and they're all got ZZ shirts, Zazy cooozies these the acts,
thesey everything. I go, dude, these are loyal fans. This
is a business that I have not been in and
I want to be a part of it. And it's
been successful. But before I got involved, the manager prior
didn't want them doing television, didn't want them doing articles,

(02:00:31):
didn't want them to be exposed at all, and hit
them because he thought, well, and he was right back
in the old days, it's a mystery. You don't give
it all the way, you know whatever. But in the
new world of post MTV and social media and all
this stuff. So I did a documentary that did really
well on Netflix with them. I got them on television,

(02:00:54):
I got them doing you know, big event shows, you know.
And so I took him out out of the fair
business and brought them back into the hard ticket business
that was Michael and I had some great agents that
worked with me, that understood my vision, you know, and
it worked out. And now you know, we're bigger in

(02:01:18):
Europe than we are in the United States. And when
I started with them, they hadn't been to Europe for
ten years or something, you know, But we worked them
in Europe and then they became Americana cheeky you know
type thing over the real deal, the real deal. We
went to Australia this year, sold everything out, everything. It
was crazy doing eighteen bucks ahead and T shirts, all

(02:01:41):
this stuff on fire, you know. So we built them
in other markets and we made it an international act
and I Chase. I spent a lot of time with
Billy even about microphones you know or whatever, you know,
and stage dressings and sets and all this kind of shit.
And Billy's a really smart guy and a very very

(02:02:04):
spot on you know, but he was He was great,
you know, he listened, he talked, we'd riff and we
became close, you know, like all my clients and I'll
have ten bad ideas and if there's one good one
in there, we're winning or we're winning.

Speaker 1 (02:02:20):
So okay, zz top one hundred dates a year actually
don't represent sticks out every year, deaf leppards seemingly.

Speaker 2 (02:02:32):
Everything ARD's amazing.

Speaker 1 (02:02:33):
Okay. In the old days they say let it lie fallow, Hey,
what's your philosophy on that? And b is this just
going to go on forever?

Speaker 2 (02:02:44):
Well, I think that the general philosophy is take those breaks,
you know, because it refuels the T shirt business the
ticket business all that. Certain bands can get away with it.
I don't think many bands can do what sticks does
c Z. Cheap Trick another one of my bands, you know,
Cheap Trick. We took on Cheap Trick just four months ago.

(02:03:07):
I had them out with Easy. This band can be
something still. This is an interesting band, you know, but
it's kind of like they're working too much. They're going
into the wrong rooms, all that kind of stuff. So
I met the band, they decided to go with us,
put two of my guys on it, and we're doing well.
And it's the same idea as Easy. They you had

(02:03:30):
to weed the garden. You know, it's a dirty garden.
Let's make it a clean garden. You know. That's weed
it to make it pretty, you know, And how do
you do that will put them in the right place.

Speaker 1 (02:03:38):
So let's talk about a band like Jeep Trick, well
known rock and roll Hall of Fame members. Is there
any upside you're talking about Zezy Top business increased in Europe,
but they haven't been there. Is it more about maintaining
the business of these acts or is there anything that
could make it grow.

Speaker 2 (02:03:58):
There's plenty of things that potent could make it grow.
Maintaining is not what our goal is when we get involved,
you know, because once again, I was never a big
cheap trick fan, Okay, but I knew they could play.
I think they still look good and they wrote some

(02:04:19):
great fucking songs. Okay. So how do we expose them
to different audience to not lose audience but gather more
people that weren't ticket buyers, record buyers, whatever it is.
How do we do that by putting them in places
they haven't been or giving them looks they've never had.

Speaker 1 (02:04:36):
Just give me an example of both of those places
they haven't been there.

Speaker 2 (02:04:39):
We'll go out and open up for a band that
you haven't opened up for ten million times, okay, go
out with fucking Rod Stewart okay, or get them on
a late night television show, even though that doesn't move
the needle of sales, Okay, it doesn't, but it does
impact the image and the perception of that band. Okay.

(02:05:00):
Do things like that, you know, do a real documentary
about the band in Rufford, Illinois, you know, or whatever.
It's like, it's it's educating people because I can play
a cheap trick song surrender, Okay to my wife or
to a friend and they, oh, I know that song,
Well who does that song? I don't know. So it's

(02:05:22):
educating people too on who wrote those songs and who's
behind those songs. And that is through proper articles, documentaries,
you know, educational pieces.

Speaker 1 (02:05:33):
And what's your philosophy on soft ticket sales soft ticket shows?

Speaker 2 (02:05:38):
Well, dependents if it's if it's sometimes they're needy because
it's part of the routing. Okay ah to be a
country act that only does soft tickets, which is not
unique in that business. You know, I think it does
nothing for the building of the growth of the band,

(02:05:59):
the loyalty to the band, all those things. If I
know I can see such and such act at a
radio show every year, welly, I'm ever going to buy
a ticket. So how does that band make money in touring?

Speaker 1 (02:06:12):
They don't.

Speaker 2 (02:06:13):
Plus they're there for twenty other bands, and so what's
the point. You know, festivals that are heart ticket festivals,
you know, like a bottle Rock or a Lolla plusa whatever.
I think are great, but not too much of it.

Speaker 1 (02:06:34):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:06:34):
I think when we played and Zeezi played Stagecoach or Creed.
This last year played stage Coach, it was a fantastic
moment because it was playing in front of people that
never would have bought a ticket, and that brings even
if you got half a percent of those people, that's
growing business. Okay, and word of mouth. Boy, I saw

(02:06:55):
a Creed. I was in the gym and Sun Valley
and one of the gym rats comes up to me
and says, here, you work with Creed? Go yeah, he goes, dude,
I was at stagecoach. Greatest show I've ever seen in
my life, never seen them before, you know, And it's like, wow, okay, sweet,
you know, but that just that alone. They're talking.

Speaker 1 (02:07:15):
Let's just talk Creed for a second now. Scott Staff
has a horrendous reputation. Yeah, and uh, Creed. A lot
of people don't like, how do you rebuild Creed?

Speaker 2 (02:07:31):
Well, it's working, okay, because if you look at the
tickets out, it's huge right now. Okay, it's huge. It's
it's arenas, it's sheds, and it's bigger than it's been
for a long time. How do you make them more
acceptable to not their core? Well that's a challenge. Okay, Uh,

(02:07:51):
but we kind of if you last Super Bowl, we
had a commercial, you know, I can't even remember who
it was for, but it was a commercial with a
Creed song and the band briefly in it and all
this kind of stuff. That was one impression. You know,
they were down in Indianapolis five hundred performing with Tom Brady.

(02:08:12):
That was all over the place all sudden. Okay, you're
with somebody different, something new, and then people go to
it and they're like, wow, this is pretty awesome.

Speaker 1 (02:08:21):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:08:21):
And once again, wasn't a big Creed fan. But I
managed Scott a long time ago, okay, and he came
back and asked me to be.

Speaker 1 (02:08:32):
About Okay, So what's the future of rock? All your
big acts are rock acts. They certainly have little participation
in the Spotify tough fifty. What's the state of rock
and where's it going? Well?

Speaker 2 (02:08:47):
I think rock something changes and it changes every year. Okay,
But if we looked at where's going to be in
ten years from now a few point of today, where
can it go? You know? Ai TikTok. All these different

(02:09:11):
mediums and technologies will erase the organic band and rock
was based on real bands, real writers and working hard
to build a handbase, not of the moment. Okay, and
rock Rock's hot now, but I don't know how it

(02:09:32):
survives social media, okay, and long term I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (02:09:38):
Okay. So finally, what is the future of the business.
Some people in certain businesses they said, well, I'm not
going to live that long and I'll just ride into
the sunset and that's it. You're obviously not that guy,
because you said you already have enough money. You know,
you're not working for the money or the money's always nice.

Speaker 2 (02:09:57):
I like money.

Speaker 1 (02:09:58):
Everybody likes it's solid.

Speaker 2 (02:10:00):
I'm not that right.

Speaker 1 (02:10:02):
So where is the business going? What changes do you
see and where is it going to end up?

Speaker 2 (02:10:09):
I don't know the answer to that, because you read
Gibbons sent me this podcast guy and I can't think
of his name. It was talking about music sucks now
Rick Beatle, Yeah, did you see that thing?

Speaker 1 (02:10:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:10:28):
And you start what the hell you know? Or that
you know? And I watched that. It's just so scary,
you know, and it's so anti what I think. And
it's about art, you know, it's even if you the
Bob Dylan movie okay, okay, whether you like it or not, Okay,
the Bob Dyler movie. It showed a moment in music history. Okay,

(02:10:50):
when it was pure, when they really cared and worked hard,
and yeah they wanted success, they needed money, but it
was like a community and it was fucking cool, you know.
And if it's going farther and farther away from there,
so if that continues that path, it will be artists

(02:11:13):
that aren't real artists or music that lives for five
minutes and gone, and there won't be the Bob Dylan's,
the Fluid Max, the Zzy Tops whatever, you know, they
won't be able to come back. It's not geared that
way anymore. It's not so eventually what happens then, well
it's all synthetic shit, you know, And so who are

(02:11:36):
the artists? Who cares for the artists? I just like
to listen to the song. Listen, you listen to your
favorite band from the seventies, it brings a memory, you know.
These songs are not memorable. These songs are not a memory.
Watermelon Sugar and I love Harry Styles great, I like them,
But is that going to ten years from now, twenty

(02:11:57):
years in somebody's life be a memory, you know, like
like a Zeppelin song and Pink Floyd the Wall or whatever. Yeah,
but the record we sat down I had my friends
come over, we played it. I shared the record with them.
You know, that whole community, it's not there anymore, and
without community long term is scary.

Speaker 1 (02:12:19):
Okay, you're going to do it till you drop.

Speaker 2 (02:12:21):
You ever gonna rend? No, Well, at some of them probably,
you know, at some level. Although watched tomorrow announce that
I'm retiring and I'm going to some valley and I'm
working on a pick a ball game and skiing every day.
How about that? But I got fifty days in this.

Speaker 1 (02:12:38):
Year, so I got one hundred and two. Where three
of them in Aspen, the rest in Veil. But that's
a separate conversational. That's a separate conversation. But you're obviously
building an asset. Yeah, yeah, so at some point you
want to sell it. Yeah, at some point, could be soon.

(02:12:59):
Uh well, let's just assume. Just assume it is soon.
A lot of people I know are in your boat
whose money is not the primary driver. They don't want
to be on the outside. They don't want to miss
the action. Could you literally say, Okay, I'm done and
I'm living in Sun Valley, I got a young kid.
Everything's groovy and I'm happy. Are you going to say, shit,

(02:13:21):
you know, the email's not coming in. I'm not on
a plane.

Speaker 2 (02:13:24):
This is weird, No, I take I think I'm a
little different than that, you know, I think c W.
It's this shoulder, carls that shoulder. C W's still there.
S kee bum, okay, skey bum. I'm acting Carl every day. Well,
maybe that act is over. I go back to CW.
And by the way, I own pieces of restaurants, I
own a musical, I own this. I'll keep those things,

(02:13:46):
you know. But if I if I was to sell
the company, I'd have to stay with the company because
the company's predicated on me as the driver. It's a
service business, so it's not an asset, so you have
to stay for a while.

Speaker 1 (02:14:00):
I'm not necessarily forever.

Speaker 2 (02:14:01):
But then it becomes like an emeritis chairman or whatever
it is, you know, and you're still involved, you know,
and your kid's going to be successful in it, Jackson
is going to be you know, and you're advising that
there's plenty of action in my life not to have
to be day to day okay involved. However, for the

(02:14:22):
next probably three to five years, I'm definitely day today.
You know, there's no outing because I'm not prepared to
let even if I don't. If I weren't selling, weren't
going to sell it, and I'm not saying I'm selling
right now. But if the plan was for always, then
I got to still build it bigger so it survives
better chance of survival. So I'm committed to that.

Speaker 1 (02:14:43):
And on that note, I think we've come to the
end of the feeling we've known. Carl, thanks so much
for spending this time with my audience and going through
the history and philosophy.

Speaker 2 (02:14:55):
Yeah, it's my pleasure, you know. I just hope I
didn't say too many times. He's got that right on.

Speaker 1 (02:15:01):
I don't think so. Until next time. This is Bob
left Sex

Speaker 2 (02:15:26):
Sh