Chris Difford

Chris Difford, of Squeeze. We address the formation of the band and its various iterations, but first and foremost we focus on Chris and his life, both personal and musical, his viewpoints, his choices (and his tenure with Bryan Ferry!) You'll feel like you're truly getting to know Chris, and even if you're not a Squeeze fan you'll enjoy hearing what Chris has to say.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sitts Podcast.
My guest today is Chris Clipper Squeeze. Chris Well. So
wonderful to be here. Okay, So where are you right
this very second? I'm in my garden shed and and
it's just blissed to be here. It's it's a kind
of spiritual place for me to be. Okay, So your shed,

(00:31):
which I can see, But this is an audio podcast.
To what degreek can you do recording there? Well? I
don't because as primarily as a lyricist, I leave all
the recording to the clever people. Um, so I sit
here and do what I can do. So I've been
doing in lockdown zoom concerts and I've been doing um

(00:53):
songwriting tutorials. Today I had sixteen people on my screen. Um.
We were working on different songs together. It was it
was kind of weird but fun. Okay, how did you
decide to do the tutorials? Well, I've been running songwriting
camps for twenty six years. I first started Miles Copeland's
Castle in ninety one I think it was, and when

(01:15):
I drove home from France having been at his retreat,
which I loved it was fun. I just thought it
was a bit bit sort of type. You know, everybody
had to be involved in his company. So I came
home and I found a really big house in the country.
I rented it with E. M. I Publishing, and we
got Lamont Dozier and we got Kirsty McCool and we

(01:38):
got sugs and Grand Gordman in the house along with
lots of other great people and we just sat and
wrote songs. And I've been doing it ever ever since.
Is it lucrative. No, I never get paid for it.
I just did it because I love it, and I
love putting people together, and I love hearing the songs.
And have any successful financially commercially songs emerged from any

(01:59):
of these camps, well, not so much that, but more
the sort of friendships. Like Kathy Dennis was one of
the first people to come, and she ended up writing
with Kylie Minogan. She's got a multimillion pound publishing deal
and I don't, so she probably she probably write the
right songs and I didn't. But it's it's kind of

(02:21):
it's about friendships and about people that you meet and
about the songs that you write. After the week you know,
it's kind of just like being in re rehab. And
to what degree can you teach songwriting? You can't. You
can't at all. That's what I found out. But but
what but what you can do is just put people
in a room and say to them, Okay, this is

(02:41):
the project, and you know, make make cups of tea
and just hope that people can cross polony. I think
that's the word that I would use, and they they do.
So the people that I've been working with this week
are all sponsored by Help Musicians, which is a charity.
So these they're all musicians that are out of work.

(03:02):
These are people that are struggling and they're eager to
do something different because they've been locked down for three months.
So they come on the screen and I give them
various projects, and I put them in groups and they
go off and write songs and it's just amazing to
hear what they come back with. You know, it's just brilliant.
And what might the assignment be? Well, the assignment? The

(03:25):
first one that I do is I asked them to
get a photograph from their house, choose a photograph, bring
it to the screen, show me the photograph, and then
I asked them to look at the photograph and take
it as inspiration for a lyric, and then they go
off for the day and then they come back with
a completed lyric based around the photograph that they've seen.

(03:50):
And I only know that it works because when I
wrote a song called label would Love for the East
Side Story album, it was inspired by Cartier Bresson autograph
that I saw in a book around that apparent one,
I think. And so these what about the music side
of it? Well, the music side is really up to them,

(04:12):
what what they bring to the table. Some people are
very basic in the way that they recalled and that's great.
And yet there are a couple of producers that have
been online today and they come back with almost the
finished product. And I'm sitting here with my chin on
the floor thinking, how do these guys do it? It's
just amazing. I just feel like a lazy sod, you know,

(04:35):
But it's just brilliant the way they do it. Okay,
and you have done how many since covid era? I'm
on my fifth week? Wow? Wow? So now you're located
near Brighton? Yeah, I'm about ten miles east of Brighton
in the South Downs. Next to right next to a

(04:58):
place called Charleston, and did you end up in that area? Well,
it's a bit of a bit of a tale. I
was in a deep dark place and I read a
book this was how long ago were you in this
dark place? Ten years ago? And it's one of my
many dark holes that I've been in, but this one

(05:20):
was pretty dark. And I had read a book by
a vicar called Peter Owen Jones, and I went to
Brighton to hear him read from his book at the
bookshop and I queued up with the book to get
him to sign it. It was a very inspirational read
and when I met him, I said, I'd really like

(05:41):
to have one to one council with you. So he
invited me to the village that I now live in,
and I sat with him for forty five minutes and
just spoke about how I felt, and he didn't say
a word. He just had a little cigarette on the go.
And then he turned to me and he said, you know,
well I think you need. It's community and what I

(06:02):
think he needed somewhere to live. And we walked outside
of his house just down the road and we walked
into a house and he said you will live here,
and is that the house you're in exactly? So that
begs the question, to what degree are you integrated in
the community. Well, I've done lots of shows to raise

(06:23):
money for the roof of the church. I love the
community community here. It's a really special place. It's been
here since Henry the eighth time. This this particular village.
It's got the lord of the manor, but it's also
got the baker, you know, and it's also got the
pub and the post office. It's very gentle and it's

(06:44):
kind of completely different from being on a tour bus.
And that's why I like it. I think let's go
back to the beginning, speaking of the church, or you
will believer? Am I a believer like the monkeys? Yeah?
I suppose I am a believer in something. I'm a
believer in fate and unbeliever in in love, and I'm
a believer of commitment, I guess. But it's taken a

(07:06):
long time for that to happen. So I must admit
I don't find that much fulfillment from a lot of interactions.
Do you find yourself getting fulfilled by talking to the banker,
baker in the other shop? People and do you see
any of these people outside of their work context. Not really.

(07:29):
I mean I sort of come and go to the
village because I'm up. Until just recently, obviously I was
on the road all the time, so for instance, this year,
I would have been away for five or six months.
So to actually be at home in the village and
to get to know each other, there is a kind
of new experience for us all, and we all cover

(07:51):
for each other. It's kind of a lockdown village, and
I have to say it's like being what I would
imagine it would have been like in the set and
World War. One of the things at the beginning of
Lockdown that was quite odd was there was no sound
of airplanes in the sky because they stopped flying off obviously,
and whenever there was a plane, people would run into

(08:13):
the garden to see what it was. It was like,
So I can imagine that must have been like that
in the Second World War. You see a plane, you
run outside, you think, what is that? Okay, let's go
back to the deep dark spaces. It's just something that
you've noticed throughout your lifetime. Yeah, I've been I tripped

(08:34):
myself up from time to time. It's been my own
for my own journey, and I wouldn't have it any
other way, I guess, you know. The thing that I
wanted most when I was a teenager was to be
in a band. My parents didn't want me to be
in a band. They said that I would end up
a drug addict and alcoholic and skin and they were
absolutely right. But I guess what I'm asking you know, depression.

(08:58):
A lot of artists, successful artists, suffer from depression. And
you seem to go on that, but by the same talking,
you're open to ideas. Have you been in therapy or
taking any medication for this depression? Yeah, twenty eight years
ago I went into rehab for the first time, and

(09:19):
it was an experience that I wasn't expecting. A good
friend picked me up literally from the street and took
me in, and I have to say it was a
big turning point in my in my career and in
my life. I've neglected a lot of relationships, the most
important ones, and I learned how to kind of stand

(09:41):
on my own two feet a little bit more and
actually know who I was for the first time. I guess, um, So,
twenty eight years ago I started that and it's there's
been therapy ever since here and here and there, And yeah,
it's not an easy ride having depression in the back
of your mind, but you know, day by day it

(10:04):
gets easier, I think. And the only person who's going
to make it more confusing is me. Well, getting older
someone people become happier, which is one of the good
advantages of getting older. But do you feel that your
depression aligns with alienation and to what degree is that
an inspiration for your work? Well, I'm good at isolating, um,

(10:28):
so it's not alienation is isolation from my point of view.
And you know, there I wasn't a very successful band
up on stage Madison Square Garden and having a great
time playing stadiums with David Bowie and what I have
have you in you you too? And all I really
wanted to do is go back to my hotel room
and be on my own, which is kind of oh

(10:50):
do you know every other person in the band where
I was out drinking having a great time dancing, and
I was kind of just like, and I don't want
to do that. I just want to go back to
my room. So, um, you know, those those are the
golden days. Let's face it, you know, you had to
go there to understand what it was all about. In

(11:10):
the first place. We we just played Modison Square Garden
and in February, and apparently we played it twice before,
but I didn't remember that. Wow, okay, when you wanted
to go back to your room, when you were at
the peak of the commercial success, what was going through

(11:31):
your brain? Why did you want to be in your room.
I wanted to be in the room so that I could,
I suppose, UM, enjoy the drink and the drugs without
anybody else around. I didn't want to share what I had.

(11:53):
I had friends that would maybe put by it. And
the other thing was that no one in the band
really twigged what was going on apart from our drama.
Gilson he got sober before I did, and he became
a big inspiration for me. Um. But when I went
into rehab, I think everybody was really surprised. They thought, well,

(12:13):
why is this guy going in? He seems quite normal
to us, and I can kind of get it. You know.
It wasn't like I was Keith Mern or you know,
I wasn't sort of staggering around driving cars into swimming pools.
I was kind of trying to keep an even keel,
and frequently people are reluctant to go to rehab. Had

(12:35):
people tried previously or why were you open to it
at that particular moment. Well, um, my drug dealer came
back from America and he had sobered up, and that
really confused me and upset me. And he said you
should try this, and he'd lost weight and he looked brilliant,

(12:56):
and I thought, I don't want to do that, so
I'm not ready for this. And then one day I
was about to go on a plane on another American
tour with Squeeze, and I went to say goodbye to
my children who were living in London, and I broke
down and I and this guy he came to pick
me up, and he didn't really give me many options.

(13:19):
He just said, look, you know, I think this is
this is the time for you to sort your life out.
And I said, well, what about Squeeze? They weight don
at the airport. He said that will be fine, and
it was and they all, um, they all carried on
the tour and sent lovely letters to me and supported me.

(13:41):
That begs a question, have you been cleaned since that time? Yeah? Absolutely,
absolutely twenty eight years. And so when you play a
gig like you said you played Madison Square Gordon recently,
do you still want to go back to your room alone.
That's a good question. Um No. I mean I like

(14:06):
my own regime. I like the back of the bus.
I like my own space, and I think everybody in
the band does. As you get older and you're in
a band, you want your own space. You know, when
you're first on a on an American tour, or you're
first on a tour, you know, in a minibus like
we were in we couldn't, you know. We just wanted

(14:27):
to be close to each other all the time. You know,
we were like stuck together like glue, going around America
having great, a great time. And then as you get older,
you want hold on a minute, I want my space.
That also begs the question of a lot of acts
are on the road classic or heritage access, they say,
and they're on the road primarily for the money, and

(14:49):
they hate each other. If you had any of that
experience where I'll see you on stage, but I don't
want to see anywhere else. No, good lord, I could
not do that for a moment. I've seen it another band. Actually,
I've seen it and I've heard about it, read about it,
but that wouldn't work with Squeeze. We're very much a
musical unit. We may have our differences from time to time,

(15:11):
but our similarities are great, and the similarities of the
songs really and you know, Glenn and I have grown
up together for forty eight years writing fantastic songs, I think,
and you know, now we need our space. Okay, you're
only a year younger than me at this late date.

(15:32):
Are you happy with what you have achieved or do
you still feel there's a grail you want to reach towards.
What are your thoughts on that. I've been thinking a
lot about that recently. There are lots of goals I
believe to head form, you know. And I think I'm

(15:53):
lucky enough to be healthy and I seem to still
be creative. My imagination still seems to be in the place,
so I'm eager to write new records. M learning all
the time about musical theater, which is something that I've
had a passion for for many years. Um and I
may not ever write a musical, but it's something that

(16:13):
I feel very strongly that I need to learn and yeah,
I mean there's always something new to do. I don't
want to be a nostalgia ban where we just go
up and do the hits. I don't think that would
wear very well with our fans. But to what degree
is it inhibiting? You know, when you started out, it
was the pre internet era, and certainly anybody who had

(16:35):
to deal with a major label, the audience was aware
of them. Whereas today, even if you're a new act,
but certainly someone who's already had success, you can make
new material and almost no one can hear it, and
even fans will come to the show and a great
number won't listen. To what degree does that make it

(16:56):
so you don't want to create at all? Um? I
don't really have any connection with that feeling. I mean,
if somebody comes to the gig because they want to
hear black coffee in bed or pull him muscles some
Michelle because it reminds them of being in college or
the first girlfriend that they had or something like that,

(17:16):
that's amazing. That's a that's a respect. Um. If they
hear a new song and they just their mind drifts,
I understand that totally. I mean, I've been to see
bands you know, like a couple of years ago. I
love Elvis Costello is a dear friend, and I go
and I listened to the new songs, and it takes
me a while to take it on board. You know,

(17:38):
I kind of hold on a minute, you know, I've
got to I'm waiting for Oliver's Army, please, and then
you can give me some new songs. And then it
gives me the new songs and I'm diving into the
lyrics and I'm thinking, Wow, what an incredible writer. But
I want Oliver's Army. Okay, So you don't like from motivation.

(17:58):
I don't like for motive patient, and I think that's
maybe that's true of the whole of Squeeze. You know,
when we're working together as a unit, which is which
is a wonderful thing, we all have motivation. Okay. Now,
there was a time when you shifted, and you went

(18:21):
into this in a book you recently wrote. You shifted
from being a performer to being a more behind the
scenes person, first as a songwriter with other people and
then as a manager. What was the what were your
thoughts did you feel you were giving something up? What
was that change like for you? A mentor of my

(18:42):
like a manager called David Nhoven who used to manage
Roxy Music and he managed King Crimson Um and he
managed Squeeze actually for a year. He was the mentor
of mine and when I was in rehab, he was
the most supportive person I could ever have had. I
loved him dear, dearly and still do. And he called

(19:05):
me out of the blue one day and he said,
Brian Ferries is looking for somebody to help him write
lyrics for his new album. Would you like to come
and meet him? And of course I had all the
Roxy Music records and Brian Ferry records and I couldn't
wait to get in the car to meet him. But
I was petrified because it felt like I was going
to meet Prince Charles or something. It was somebody in

(19:27):
a different level to me. So I sat with Brian
and with David, and Brian took me into his room
and he gave me books and books and books and
books of one liners, just one liners written down on
pads and he said, I want you to sort them
all out into songs. And so that was the beginning

(19:48):
of my relationship with him, and then it transformed into
becoming his personal manager. Because he didn't have a personal manager,
and he'd like to go to dinner with me for
some reason, and we like to go to the country
together for some reason. We hung out, We like cars,
We drove around a lot, and we became friends when

(20:11):
it was when it was cool for him, and I
have to say the hugest respect for him, although I
found it difficult emotionally sometimes to work for him, and
so therefore I was transformed into a sort of managerial person.
And I wasn't in Squeeze Squeeze were asleep, so I

(20:32):
had the opportunity to do that, and I loved it. Okay,
let's go back to Brian for a second. When you
started to work for him, how are you doing financially? Um,
I was coasting. I was living in the country with
my my partner and my two new children, and we

(20:54):
were living on a farm. I had a recording studio
which everybody used to come and record about. Wayne Shorter
came to record there, for instance, Paul Weather, Oasis, Brian Ferry.
I mean, the list goes on this huge list, and
I really enjoyed being a proprietor of that and seeing

(21:15):
my kids grow up. And I was peddling. It was.
It was peddling time. It was fine. I enjoyed it.
And then Brian gave me a monthly wage, which was terrific.
You know. It was just lovely to have a wage
packer and to be at work. And because I lived
in the country and he wanted me to be close by,
he put me in a hotel. So I stayed in

(21:37):
a really nice hotel just around the corner from his
house for six months. And when we got the bill,
I could have bought a flat for the price for
the for the hotel, but it was a lovely experience
experience for me. And yeah, well if you were in
the hotel for six months, were you separated from your

(21:58):
family for six months? Yeah. I used to go home
at the weekend, apart from when Brian needed me to
go to the country with him to his country house,
or we would go and do a show somewhere. So
I was always on twenty four our call um. That
was my That was my my job, I guess. And yeah,
he had in a circle of private friends that I

(22:20):
was not. I was not in the inner court, if
you like. I was not in the inner court of
the Crimson King. I was on the outside of the
Crimson King and as far as bigger decisions like when
to go on tour putting out albums, were you involved
that or there was someone who was a manager who's
taking care of that. No, for a while, it was

(22:42):
it was it was David and myself and Brian making
the decisions. And he just wanted to work. You know,
he'd gone through a very difficult divorce which was painful
for him, and I could see that and I felt
dearly for him, you know, and he just wanted to work,

(23:04):
you know, he wanted to earn some money and just
have his mind taken off what was going on for him.
So we used to get lots of corporate work, you know,
we do private shows. And then I get a phone
call from the record company and they say, Chris, you know,
the one thing we would like you to achieve is
to get Roxy Music back together again. And I said,

(23:26):
you want me to get Roxy music? How the hell
am I going to do that? Anyway? The next phone
call was from the head of a massive bank that
he's got tons of money. He wants Roxy Music to
do a private gig for his forty So I call
all the members of the band apart from Brian, you know,
and they all agree to do the show. So without rehearsals,

(23:48):
we turn up at this club and then I think,
this is my big minute. I've got them all in
the dressing room. I'm going to get them to talk
about reforming and Phil Man scenario, who was the it's
a catalyst in a way of trying to make it work.
I stood them in the dressing him to try and
get the conversation going, and it was like they'd all

(24:09):
just was that their first day of school. They didn't
know what to say each other. It was just weird,
and so it didn't happen. Okay, And to what degree
did you end up creating artistically with Brian Um? Well,
I don't. I don't know if I did. I think

(24:29):
I kind of was there as a listening post. Sometimes
he'd have lots of different musicians in and lots of
different producers. We got Dave Stewart, and Dave produced the
album that I worked on, and Dave, being the genius
that he was, he would only kind of come in

(24:50):
for like an hour a week, but that would be
enough to kind of put the match to the fireworks
and set things off and Brian. You know, Brian was
very particular about his music, of course, and his whole image.
And I learned a lot from from his his kind

(25:10):
of style, if you like. But what did you learn?
I learned that just wasn't good enough to pick any
old tie out when you were going out for dinner,
that you had to really give it a whole day's
thought and just drilling a little bit further so emotionally
shifting from being on stage behind the scenes that was

(25:34):
rather smooth, or the break before this made it so
it was rather smooth. What was it difficult not to
work with Brian? It wasn't difficult. It was kind of smooth.
I didn't miss squeeze at that point, Okay, And then
how did it end with Brian? Oh? Um, Well, it

(25:55):
ended in exhaustion. I think really I was exhausted. He
was exhausted. He needed a proper manager to take him
to where he needed to go. I don't think I
was that guy. I definitely wasn't that guy. Um. I've
been through lots of tiring days with him. And I

(26:17):
sat in my car outside the office one day and
I found his p A and I said, I'm not
coming in. I really don't think I can do this anymore.
And the next thing, I get a letter from Brian
and I've got it in my desk and I've never
opened it. But it was basically a farewell leader, and

(26:40):
you've never opened it because because I didn't need to
read what he would say kind of you know, he
was a very giving kind of guy, and I just
thought it would let the magic out of the bag,
whatever magic there was between us in that short space
of time, and I didn't want it to come out.

(27:02):
I wanted it to remain in the past. But that
begs a question, assuming you get mailed, do you open
your mail the day it comes? Oh? God? Yeah, But
this was from Brian Ferry and I knew it was
from him because I recognized the handwriting of his p A.
So it was kind of obvious. Okay, So that's approximately

(27:23):
six months working with him. Yes, there were two different times.
There was There was a six month period and then
there was a year. Yeah, And what was between those two, Um,
there was about two weeks of uh, not knowing what
I was required to do. M he was in a

(27:47):
bad mood. I got sent back to the hotel. The
phone didn't ring and I just sat there and I
sat there, and I sat there, and then he found
up and I came back in. Okay. So when that ended,
you went on to be a me and Drew menage
another bit. Well, yeah, I managed a band called the Stripes,
if that's who you're talking about. The Stripes. Yeah. They

(28:09):
were fifteen years old and they're from Ireland, from Cavern
in Ireland, and they came over and asked me to
produce them, and I pressed playing and record on the
two ins tape machine. They recorded about fifteen songs in
one take and it was like listening to the Rolling
Stones for the first time. They were just out of

(28:30):
this world. They were young, correct, they'd learn everything off
their iPads I think, and by just dedicating themselves to
the instruments that they that they were playing. So I
was completely smitten by them. But they didn't have a manager,
and I was giving them advice. I guess I was
just trying to help them out. And then I get

(28:51):
a phone call from Elton John and Elton John here's
that I've been working with them, and he says to me,
I really want that band on my label. So I said, great,
you know that sounds like amazing. He said, bring them
around for Sunday lunch. So I get the whole band
in my car. We drive around to Elton's house, which

(29:12):
is for them, you know, I am for me. I guess.
It's like this house with fantastic gardens, electric gates, statues everywhere,
candles in every room, flowers everywhere, just like the nicest thing,
you know. So we go in and he gives us
Sunday lunch. He tells us what he's going to do
for the band, and then afterwards, I get the band

(29:35):
in the car and I'm really excited about it. And
I turned to them and I say, what did you
make of that? And they said to me, they're the
best roast potatoes we have had. So it was like
that's all that mattered to them, was the food. But
the band certainly did not reach the acclaim or success

(29:57):
of Elton never mind squee these How did you deal
with that? Um? Well, they toured the world and put
on live shows everywhere that were brilliant. You know, they
were very exciting to watch. I stood at the side
of the stage loads of times watching them play. Um
they they were like any band at that age. They

(30:20):
were kind of oscillating together. Um, But there was a
kind of inner confusion about who did what I guess,
and you know that often happens with a young, young band.
You're waiting to see who's going to be like the
main writer or who's going to do the talking when
you do the press, you know, So it had to

(30:41):
evolve over time. The record company, you know, they gave
them three albums and then they were kicked out the door.
And did that break up the band? It was about
to implode anyway, because there were two separate writing camps.
There was the guitarist wrote most of the original songs,

(31:03):
and then the bass player and the druma wrote the
most of the songs for the third album and equally
as great as Josh's songs the guitarist, but coming from
a different point of view. And I think their influences
as human beings had started to change. And are any

(31:23):
of these people still in music professionally? Yeah? The guitarist,
Josh is floating around. I think he's recorded a couple
of records. I'm not sure where there. He plays with
Paul Weller every now and again. Is an amazing guitar player.
The drummer and the bass player I'm in touch with
and they have a band that they that they play.
But you know, the music industry is so difficult for

(31:47):
them as a young young as young men. It's not
like it was when I started out, that's for sure.
Also in this era, you do some songwriting with other people,
how does that come together into what degree is that fulfilling? Well?
For most of my life obviously writing with Glenn, He's
like the main guy in my life, and you know,

(32:12):
we've had an incredible journey. And then when it came
along for me to write with other people like Elton John,
I felt like I was sleeping outside of the marriage.
It was difficult. I found it hard. Um. But and
then started co writing when I started doing the songwriting

(32:34):
camps twenty six years ago, and and I've been doing
that ever since. And now it's like falling off a log.
I really love her. And this afternoon I was writing
with Kimmi Rhodes in Austin, Texas, UM and we're working
on some songs. So you know, I'm enthusiastic about songwriting

(32:54):
writing and I write at a different speed from Glenn,
and I think that's that's well respect respected between the
two of us, I e. You ride faster. Yeah, Cleans
much more careful about what he does, and that's what
makes him the genius that he is. I guess I
kind of. I just want to get on with it,

(33:15):
whether it's right or wrong. Okay, just staying in brighting
or the general area that would beg the question. Were
you a modern or rocker or was that something that
didn't apply. I was a skinhead when I was great.
I lived it really Yeah. I lived on a council
estate and I was a skinhead and we used to
beat people up. But you know, I was at the

(33:37):
back of the crowd because I didn't really like that
very much. And in fact, one of my skinhead friends
came to one of my gigs recently and he said,
you know, it was odd about you. He said, We'll
be having a great, big fight and you'd be sitting
there with a pencil writing poetry. So if you grew
up in a council estate, that was weird. That was
in Greenwich in London, and yeah, it was full of skinheads,

(34:01):
and so I had no choice. I just joined the band,
I suppose, But all the while, in the back of
my mind I wanted to be in a rock and
roll band, and I loved music. I was tuned into
the who and the small, small faces, and just the
idea of being in a band. The camaraderie just looked amazing.

(34:22):
Interesting you talk about the camaraderie and then certain aspects
of your personality. You're a loner. But let's also go
back to the council state. So what did your parents
do for a living. Yeah, my dad worked at the
gas works when he came down from the Second World Well,
he got a job at the gas works and he
was there to the day diet, and he he loved
it down there, and I loved being down there with

(34:43):
him and my mom. She was mom to three boys,
and then towards the latter part of her life she
got a job in a canteen. Okay, so there are
three boys. Where are you in the hierarchy. I'm the youngest.
I came ten years after the one before, so I
was a bit of her. I was just the last

(35:06):
one on the rack. Well, usually the baby, whether it's
a couple of years or ten, is coddled and is treated,
you know, like fine china by the parents. They couldn't
afford fine china. My parents. What I mean is that
they're forgiving in a way that they might not be

(35:27):
for the older children. Um. Yeah, they were kind of
tired by then, I guess. But my brothers looked after me,
and thank thank God that they did. You know, they
looked out for me. My dad was constantly working, so
I hardly saw him, and my mom just kept herself
to herself. We lived in a tiny house and there
was music, there was food on the table, there was love,

(35:50):
you know. So it wasn't disruptive in that kind of
way until I became a young teenager and started playing music.
Now Council states from a US viewpoint, is the lower
economic end of the scale and its post war To
what degree was it impoverished under privilege or not a

(36:14):
factor it was. It was built by the local council
to house people that were in temporary accommodation after the
Second World War. So, for instance, before we moved in
to the house we had on the estate, we were
living in a prefab which was built specifically for people
who didn't have homes after the Second World War. So

(36:34):
that was my first home, and a prefabs like a
flat building now stairs, and you know, we were all
sort of crammed in and there was like four prefabs
in a row. But they weren't very healthy places to live.
They had a lot of damp and it wasn't very
It wasn't great. So we moved on to this council

(36:55):
estate with lots of other people and and it quickly
became um sort of the nest from where the birds
began to lay their eggs. Now, as I say, we're
coming from across the park, what do we know about
the UK and that era? There's limited radio, records are expensive.

(37:17):
What was it like growing up before you actually got
into a band. Yeah, records were expensive, but and you
had to go miles to get them, you know. That
was the great thing. You know, if like the Allman
Brothers brought out a live album and have to get
on a bus go all the way into London, that
would take an hour and a half. I'd queue up,
get a copy of the Allman Brothers, put it in

(37:39):
the bag on the bus, come all the way back
and then put it on the record player. So music
was so important. It meant so much more because you've
gone out of your way to get it, you know,
And that's what my record collection was it was a
dedication of love, really, And whenever somebody like Todd Rudgreen
or Frank's Upper or someone like that would bring out
a record record, you know, I would be on the

(37:59):
bus up to London to get the first copy of it.
But those were the days where people would judge you
based on your record collection. So what kind of kid
were you growing up? We were a member of the
group We're good in school? What was that like? I
wasn't good at school now, I was kind of what
we were looking at my school report the other day
and it said I was backward. Um, you know, I

(38:24):
was just let what you called today dyslexic. So I
was put in a special class with other kids that
were backward. Um. This guy that I used to sit
next to, Derek Shot, he had crayons, you know, and
he was kind of more backward than me. But we
were just there, you know. And that's why I just
used to get a pencil and write down poetry. And

(38:44):
I don't know why. I think it became a way
of isolating from the rest of the class. And um,
it became like a a safe place to be amongst
all these words and the teachers didn't seem to mind
what I was doing, so I felt like I was
doing the right thing. But you that's kind of an

(39:08):
interesting connection. Poetry and look slexia. Those don't tend not
to go together. Maybe I'm not the selestic and I
don't understand, well they don't. But there's just words, and
you know they in those days they were very floral
or very kind of had no meaning. They were just
fun words. It was just the words were just a

(39:28):
place to sort of exist outside of the rest of
the school, I guess. But I was constantly listening to music,
and that was what was influencing me. You know, I'd
listened to King Crimson record and I think, Wow, the
lyrics this are amazing. You know, I want to be
Pete Simfield. I want to write lyrics like like this,
And so I would go off and try and copy him.

(39:52):
So in America we had the folk scene, and then
the Beatles came on the scene at the very beginning
of nineteen sixt Were they broke in the UK? Sixty
two sixty three? To what degree were the Beatles impactful
on your sensibility and career and desires? Ordered to come
sooner was an influenced by something later. My elder brother

(40:16):
was a massive Beatles fan, and they were an institution
in our house. They were almost like religious figures. Whenever
a record came out, it constantly got a spin, and
at Christmas they were always on television. They were kind
of like, you know, the Boys, two men of their time,
I guess, and they were just like constantly respect you know,

(40:37):
you respected them all. They didn't seem to put a
foot wrong everything that, you know. I joined the fan club.
The fan card records were amazing, the books, the magazines
that used to come, they were so clean cut, you know,
they were the boy next door. And so my parents
accepted that that was the music that I might want

(40:57):
to get into because it was a respectable player. But
I didn't want to get into that place. You know,
I'd already at this point anyway, discovered the m C
five and the Stooges and you know, rock and roll
and stuff that was filthy. And that was because my
other brother didn't like the Beatles and like rolling Stones,

(41:17):
and so down his tree came bow Deadly how the
Stooges m C five, So you know, there was those
two branches of the family tree. That were rocking in
different direct direct directions, yeah had in one house. Usually
you didn't get that opposition in one house. So what
point do you pick up an instrument and say this

(41:38):
is my destiny. I think when I was about fourteen,
I picked up an instrument started writing songs and before
I met Glenn, i'd written probably forty or fifty that
was quite pleased with. It was quite fluent, but not
very good. But it didn't matter, you know, the the ambition.

(41:59):
The ambition was every think that they needed. And the
ambition came from two very important gigs that I saw.
The first one was The Who Who played at Chilton.
I went to see them. I managed to get backstage,
and to be backstage to watch The Who play in
front of a hundred thousand people in a football ground

(42:22):
was extraordinary. It was the most exciting thing. And the
camaraderie between them being in a band, it was like
being in a gang being and going a skinnets. You know,
they're all getting on, dancing around, having fun. So I
was like, okay, that's the job for me. And then
a little bit before that, I had seen David Bowie

(42:42):
this is pre Ziggy and he was playing in a
local college. All the audiences in those days sat cross
legged on the floor and David Bowie walks on and
plays all these amazing songs and the lyrics just hit
me and I think, wow, I wish I could write
lyrics like like that. You know that? And I sort
of moved away from King Crimson and from the kind

(43:04):
of fantasy lyricism to the more sort of structured lyric Okay,
so when do you stop going to school? I stopped
going to school in my head that there I went. Really,
I mean, I wasn't very good. It didn't get any results. Um,
I was always looking out the window. I wasn't bothered
with it all. You know. It was the only class

(43:26):
that I took to was the art class. And that's
because we had a really beautiful art teacher called Gail.
And Gail was a real sweetheart, and she was a
young teacher from a local college. And she used to
say to us, bring your records in and we will
play them while we're painting and drawing and stuff like that.
And I was like, wow, a teacher actually has got

(43:46):
a record collection. And after school one day she invited
me around to her house to listen to the new
Fleetwood Mac album. And then she tried to seduce me.
Really yeah, I was terrified. So what happened? You run
out the door? I ran out the dog on the
bus and went home and the next day, the next day,

(44:09):
I went back to school and nothing was said. How
much older than you was? She? She was older than me? Okay, Um,
do you ever have a straight gig? Or you pretty
much made your living as a musician? Might a few
jobs when I left school. I worked down the docks

(44:30):
with my brother for a bit. Um, nothing really to
write home about. I mean, the ambition was always to
try and write songs and try and being a band.
And so you say your parents disapproved of that. They
did until they saw me on Telly, and then suddenly
the penny dropped and it was like, ah, yeah, what

(44:51):
a great boy. You are fantastic, well done. So okay,
you you're writing songs? How do you start forming bands?
I put an advert in a sweet shop window in
nineteen seventy three for a guitarist to join a band,
and the only person to ring was a guy called
Glen Hillbrook. It was April nine three, and I was

(45:15):
quite nervous about meeting him. For the first time. I
didn't know where it was going to lead. And I
met him outside a pub, him and his girlfriend Maxine.
I'd recognize them from being people that had seen locally,
so I kind of was aware of both of them
because they stood out from the crowd. They were very different.

(45:36):
They were hippie hippie kids, if you like. He had
bare feet, she had bare feet. He had a mandolin,
they had long hair, and they looked beautiful and angelic together,
and there was something about it that was so beautiful
that I thought, I've got to give this a go.

(45:57):
And I went to their house, listened to some songs.
We listened to some Jimmy Hendricks, which Glenn was really
into at that point, and then he came to my house.
I played some songs, some that I'd written before we
knew where we were. By the summer of that year,
we'd written about fifty songs. I guess why the Sweet Shop.

(46:21):
Why the Sweet Shop? Well, because because I just thought, well,
it's local, you know, And I thought, well it was.
The advert was above bunk bed for sale, freezer for sale,
you know, second hand budgery, garcage for sale, and then
guy looking for guitarist. It was kind of surreal, and

(46:43):
I suppose I didn't know what was going to happen.
I could have put an advert in the Melody Maker,
which everybody did, but I didn't. Right, Okay, So when
it comes to your house and you're writing songs or
there's the division of duties happened pretty quickly where you're
the lyricist and he's an musical end of it. Yeah,
I think it did really. Glenn recognized, I guess a

(47:04):
skill I had been working on, which is the lyrical
side of music music, and I realized that musically likewise,
he was really good at putting songs together. So we
were in a we're in a van going to a gig,
and he asked me for a lyric and I had

(47:24):
a whole load of lyrics and I gave him one.
He wrote a tune, and to that day, to this
I've never written another tune. And where was that in
Squeeze his career. That was before Squeeze. That was just
the beginning. So he had been at school with Jules Holland,
and so he introduced me to Jules and that was
really the nucleus of the early part of squeeze, and

(47:49):
how does it become squeeze? And how do you get
a manager in a record deal? And well, a lot
of rehearsing, a lot of playing in the local pubs,
a lot of writing songs, playing teammates. That was the
most important thing. Um. And then there was a band
called the Own Only Ones. I don't know if you

(48:11):
remember them, and Glenn had been hanging out with one
of them, and they had this guy called Lawrence, and
Lawrence was a manager, and Lawrence had been at school
with Stewart Copeland. And Lawrence said, you know, I'd been

(48:32):
a manager, but I think you need someone who really
knows what they're doing because you're such a great band.
And that was a really nice thing for him to say.
So he looked after us for a little bit finance
some of her early work, and then he introduced us
to It's Larger than a life character. Myles Copeland and
Miles came to our rehearsal room. We played him fifteen

(48:53):
songs and he just wanted to sign us there and then,
and so what to inspire, Well, we signed a massive
document that was like five ft tall. It was a
publishing agreement, an agency agreement, and a record and a
record company agree agreement. They were all cross collateralized, but

(49:16):
it meant that we got fifty in quid a week.
So we said, yeah, we'll sign this. Fifteen quid a
week sounds amazing. So well, and he said to us,
a look, if you don't, if you haven't got a lawyer,
just show it to your dad. So I showed it.
I showed it to my dad, who worked in the
gas works, and he said how much are you going
to get? And I said fifteen quickly said sign it?
And to what degree do you regret signing that today? Well,

(49:38):
fifty percent of all of the songs that I wrote
with Glenn up until I don't own and I don't
get the publishing four they go. They used to be
owned by Miles he sold the company. So um, yeah,
that's part of the past of the hundred percent of
your interest. How much do you not get because there's

(49:58):
a publishing of the Raidar side. Well, um, he was
the publisher, so he got fifty okay, So we took
all of the publishing, yes, and then Glenn and I
will get right okay, So now what happens with making
a record? Um? Well, he we punk new wave just

(50:21):
started to come to London and we were going around
looking at other bands like The Clash, people like that
in clubs and wondering what the hell was going on.
And Miles had a friendship with John Kale from the
Velvet Underground and he suggested that we did some work

(50:45):
with John. So our first meeting with John was extraordinary.
We went to a rehearsal and we played him twenty
songs that we've been working on and he fell asleep.
So we wrote I am a c U n T
on his forehead in delible link and we sent him
back to his hotel and the next day came back

(51:05):
and it was still on his foot, theol But it
didn't matter because you know, he kind of said to us.
He said to me, in particular, I think your lyrics
are too sweet. I want you. I think if we're
going to work together, you've got a shop in your
pencil and do something different. And he was kind of right,
But you know, when you're young, you think you're right,

(51:26):
you know, So it was a bit of a clash.
So first and foremost, you named the band after the
last Velvet Underground album, Squeeze, which really is a Doug
Yule incremation as opposed to reading John Kle in creation.

(51:48):
Then you work with John Kyle, what's that about? I
know what that was? That was fate. I mean, we
had lots of names that went in a hat, and
Squeeze was the one that came out. Bass player put
the name in that. But yeah, I mean that's kind
of weird that both of them sort of linked together,
but it was, you know, I look him back thankfully.
That stuff with John was was really what made us

(52:09):
individual as a as a band. We could have been
a sweet pop band. You know, there's other record labels
that wanted us to be like the Rubettes or the
Basity Rollers. You know, they they wanted to mold us
in that kind of way. But luckily John Klee wanted
us to be different and he was absolutely right. How
do you end up with A and m um? Well,

(52:31):
various labels came along. I mean I remember Maurice Oberstein
coming to see us in London the Hundred Club and
he said, I think I'm going to pass on you guys.
He was very honest and I thought that was great.
It was very honest with him. He gave us the
reasons why and then the next pub we played in,

(52:52):
Derek Green from A and M came down and they
signed us. And well, I loved about A and M
and A record companies in general in those days is
they would stick with you. So if you had a
tough record the first one out, they'd stick with you
for two or three more, just to see if you
had any gas in the tank. And we certainly did so.
You know, after the first album didn't really sell that many,

(53:16):
they allowed us to record the second album with John
Kale's engineer guy called John Wood, and the third album
with John Wood, and they were successful. Okay, yes you
have cool for catch, you have other hit certainly in
Los Angeles. Those are records that were played on K Rock,
which dominated the airwaves in Los Angeles, and the programmers

(53:38):
they ended up at MTV, which helped you. What was
the experience on your end? I mean we're I'm on
the listening and you're on the manufacturing and touring end. Well,
I felt like my feet weren't touching the ground. You know,
we were in and out of the studio. You know,
we get to the end of one record than the

(53:59):
record and he would say we want another record. Um,
like quick. Um So, me and Glenn would have to
work double e quick when we got back from touring.
And we love touring, so we were always on the
road in America or in Europe, and then we'd be
back in the studio again. And luckily Glenn forged a

(54:19):
fantastic relationship with John Wood um so that when the
songs were being produced, Glenn was very much at the
at the helm with John m putting together the melodies
and the structure, if you like. Um So, it was
a very productive five years. I guess it was just

(54:41):
the constant roller coaster of motels, two buses, studios, hangovers
and all the bad things. Well, you know you're saying
you love touring, what do people say? You know, it's
twenty three hours of hell from one hour of Evan
on stage. Well did you partake of the lifestyle on

(55:04):
the road, the wine, women, etcetera. But of course, you
know when you're young, you know, coming to America for
the first time, I remember extremely well, we got off
the plane in New York. It was just amazing. You know,
we're getting a minibus. Miles Copeland, our manager provided a minibus.
We got in it and we drove around America for

(55:25):
two months. We played absolutely everywhere that we could possibly play,
and while we were there, Miles would go and knock
on radio stations doors and say, you've got to play
these guys. But they were reluctant. They were playing zz
Top and um Sticks and you know r e O Speedwagon.
They weren't interested in young bands from Britain at that point.

(55:47):
So it was an uphill struggle at the very beginning,
but it was a struggle that we were prepared to
take on board. And we like to have a great time,
and we did. We certainly did have a great time.
And then pulling Muscles from Michelle becomes a big radio
success amongst those radio stations that will play it, as
radio was transitioning from you know, meat and potatoes right

(56:10):
to the British sound. Yeah, and then I reft to
say that college radio saved our lives really because everywhere
we went, we played colleges and the college radio would
be open to us playing for them. They would play
our music music, the kids in the college would enjoy it.
They come to the gig, and then when they got

(56:31):
older and they had families, they come and see us again.
So it was kind of like the breeding ground for Squeeze.
And how does Jewels decide to leave the band? Well, um,
I guess he got offered some TV work out of
the Blue, and Miles Copeland offered him a TV in

(56:53):
the UK called The Tube. He got an audition and
he passed, and he decided to take that and to
form his own band and go off and do his
own thing. And I remember meeting with him and Glenn
in a cafe in black Heath and he told us
what was going to happen, and I went home and cried.
I was that sad. I thought this was you know,

(57:13):
like one of the main members of the band had left,
and I sort of was upset with Miles for not
kind of keeping everything together. And then a few months
later we met a new manager and we met a
new keyboard player and everything was rosy again. And the

(57:33):
new manager was Jake Rivieria. And Jake, well, you know
Stiff Records, that's a that's a world and to itself,
well it is and Jake was creative, exciting, every completely
different from Miles and fun to be around again. It

(57:55):
was like being in a gang, you know, you had
Elvis Costello, Dave Edmonds, mc loebe or Cara. You had
this great fraternity of musicians who all wanted the same
thing and wanted to do it with joy and happiness
and great artistry. I suppose even though we were pissed
most of the time, it didn't seem to matter. And

(58:16):
he came up with some great ideas, like a you know,
the East Side Story album was going to be a
four sided record. Dave Edmonds was going to produce one side,
the Nick one side obviously still a one side, and
Paul McCartney was gonna record side four. We went in
the studio with Nick low Um, which was great fun,
but we ended up in the pub mostly so that

(58:38):
never saw the light of day. Dave Edmonds did the
original version of Tempted, but it didn't sound like Squeeze,
and then we went in with El Elvis and it
just made complete sense. How does Paul Curic get into bed, Well,
we didn't never keep board player, and there he was,
and well, certainly he's had a parapatetic career after but

(58:58):
he starts in ace. He does how long I have
that album? I like it, but nothing really happens. And
then he's in your band. He's playing in Mike and
the Mechanics. You know, he's cutting solo. He never seems
to stay anywhere he's with Eric Clapton. Um, Yeah he doesn't.
But you know, I think that keeps him healthy, you know.

(59:21):
And he's a talent. He can sing so beautifully and
emotionally that when I'm writing songs with him, I find
it really hard to contain my feelings because he's such
an incredibly emotional singer. So to have him in Squeeze,
I didn't know that at the time, but to have
him in Squeeze was just genius. And what were the

(59:41):
circumstances and how did you feel when he left? Well,
that's when I started to think that the chain was
beginning to snap and started. Glenn, we were tired. We
toured constantly, recorded constantly, UM and we were doing an
album with a I called Ian McDonald who was an engineer,

(01:00:03):
and we went into Sweet Side Story with him in
Roger Adultery's studio in Batassy, and yeah, I was tired,
Glenn was tired, and we were on a train together
and we both said the same thing at the same time,
I think we should rest the band, and we broke
the band up. Which was upsetting for everybody, including us,

(01:00:27):
and we recorded Suits from a Stranger and that was that. Okay,
But Black Coffee in Bed is a big radio success,
at least in the US. It was a huge radio
success for us. But it was very long as a song,
and I was surprised. That's what I liked about it. Yeah,
I liked it to and when you come and see
us played live, it is the longest song of the night.

(01:00:47):
It's like the second set and just in that one song. Um,
you know, Glenn was his genius point at that, you know.
He we'd written When the Hangover of the Strikes and
then the music to that and the music to Black
Coffee and Bed were like the highlights of that part
of our career. And lyrically, I felt like I was

(01:01:10):
beginning to fade. The lights were beginning to get dim
in my head, and so it was a good time
to say good night. So we said good night. In Jamaica.
That was our last gig. We were on stage with
the wreath of Franklin there Grateful Dead, the Clash. It
was a festival and yeah, it was kind of like

(01:01:31):
a great way to go out, okay, but you go
out that must have been emotionally very difficult. You come home,
what's the player and there wasn't one. There was no
plan until about two months later, a guy from a
local theater presents Glenn and I with a script for

(01:01:52):
a musical called Label Would Love. Glenn and I read it,
we liked it, We were used the band and it
ran for three months. The needer Land of family from
America came to see it. They wanted us to tour
in America, but we didn't want to do that. UM,

(01:02:13):
so we went off and recorded an album on our
own called Diffident Tilbrook. We changed managers again and who
was the new manager? Chef Gordon right, and that was
Chep very well. I forgot that point of this h
managerial career. So yes, you have the new manager, and

(01:02:35):
what does Chef tell you to do? Because Sheep is
not short of ideas. He he had some ideas about
us working with Grandmaster Flesh, which was surreal, and we
did some tracks with them in New Jersey. UM, but
the coming together was strange. It didn't really work. It

(01:02:59):
was like it could have worked with a bit more
input from myself and Glenn possibly, but it didn't really
want it didn't really seem like it was going to fit.
So we went off and recorded the Different Tilbrook album
with Eric thorn Gren, and Eric thorn Gren was their
engineer and he'd never been out of that studio with
a grandmaster flesh, so it was like a new beginning

(01:03:21):
for him too. He went on to record with the
Talking Heads and stuff, so he came to London and
help us finish that that album. And so how do
you decide to become Squeeze again? It was very easy.
The Different Tilbrook album was a masterpiece on reflection, but
not at the time a Glen Again. Glenn's genius was

(01:03:46):
at the forefront musically, I think um and we he
was co He was working on it with Tony viscon Visconti,
and we took it to the record company and they
turned it down. They didn't like what Tony had done.
And that's the only time Tony Visconti has been turned
down by a record label after that, you know. So
that was kind of sad. Um. So then we get

(01:04:08):
that somebody approaches Glen about doing a charity gig locally
for and so we get Jewels, Gilson, everybody back in
the band, and we go in the pub, we play
the electricity is reformed, we're oscillating as a band again,
and then we're off. We're off to the races. But
what do we do? We call Miles Copeland and Miles

(01:04:30):
comes back to manage us again. And why do we
do that? Because he's got such a great relationship with
A and M. Because of the police that we figure
that we can get as many doors open for us
as possible. And to some degree that did work. You know,
Miles had a lot of weight to throw around and
that helped us record the next few albums. But ultimately

(01:04:52):
A and then rejects you when you jump to reprieve. Yeah,
that was weird. They we got to the stage where
we dumped my hours again and they phoned us up
and they just said, I'm sorry, you come to the
end of the road. And then we Glenn and I
were like, oh my god, what we're gonna do now?
Another hurdle to jump over. And then the next day

(01:05:15):
we get a phone call from Lenny one Oker and
he says to us, I want to I want you
guys on Warner Brothers come to Los Angeles and record
an album with Tony Berg. So we go to Los Angeles,
and that's where I hit my darkest point in my life,
right at the beginning of the recording of that record.

(01:05:36):
What Why Um. I think I've kind of taken to
many drugs, drunk too much, isolated too much. I've lost
any communication skills I had with the band, particularly with Glenn,
and I regret that. And Glenn had this great vision
that we would all be in like a house in

(01:05:58):
Los Angeles, like when the band got together to record,
But as soon as we got to Los Angeles, I
checked out of the house and got myself in the
apartment on Venice Beach and drew the curtains and isolated
from everybody and left Glen really to sort of hold
court and he and Tony did all the work on

(01:06:22):
that record, but emotionally I kind of was dried up,
I guess well. On that album, which many people consider
to be uh not, one of the beings high points
is Satisfied, which is one of my favorite Squeezed tubes.
Absolutely it's one of mine too, and it's a terrific
song that we never play life but wish it that

(01:06:44):
we did. And I think the production of that was
recorded in Tony's garden shed. It's amazing. It's just an
amazing thing. And then you go back to and him,
how does that happen? We've had a checkered past um
you know. Well they had a change of heart at

(01:07:07):
the top of the label and they decided that, well,
you know, we've got their back catalog, how can we
enhance the new cat catalog. We gave them some new songs.
Some Fantastic Place came along. I've been in rehab, I
was on a pink cloud. Some Fantastic Place was a
great record. We have Pete Thomas in the band playing drums.

(01:07:30):
We had Poor Carrot back in the band, and for
me that was that was like a genius time. You know,
we were really back, really back in the saddle there.
I think, yes. But needless to say, while you were
doing all this, musical trends were changing. Were the fifteen years.

(01:07:52):
So certainly your sound can be in and can be out.
What was that like in terms of making music? Certainly
in that era the Seattle sound was becoming very big. Yeah,
it was you know, the A and R guys were saying, hey,
you should you know, you should sound a bit more
like Blur, or you should sound a bit more like,
you know, they were trying to sort of guide us,

(01:08:13):
and we're saying, well, no, we're going to sound like squeeze,
thank you very much. And then secretly they would send
their songs off to be mixed by people in Sweden
and it was like, what the hell are you doing
that for? You know, it's like stupid, and so it
started to peter out again, you know, I mean, it's
it's extraordinary. We've we've been extraordinarily lucky to to bump

(01:08:38):
along the rock and roll road. And about the same
time Jewels starts his road to real stardom on the
Tube in the UK. What are your thoughts there? Um, Well,
I've always remained great friends with Jules, and I sing
in his orchestra every now and again as a tour

(01:08:58):
at the end of this year that I'm supposed to
be on singing with him. I write with Jules. I've
never been far from his side, and I really enjoy
our friendship. It goes back many years after all, and
I really was not jealous of what he did. I
was in in awe and it was great to hang
out with him. But did you foresee this giant success? No,

(01:09:24):
I didn't, but it seems now natural. You know, he's
on television all the time, and thankfully he is introducing
fantastic music to a younger crowd. So that's you know,
we're there's very little music on television as as you
well know, so to have something like Jules's show is
just a tiny bit of fresh air for people to

(01:09:47):
tune into. So one must ask, over this long career,
with no absolute staples, how this worked out financially for
you over all these FI decades almost Um, well, there
were times when royaltism prs would come through the door

(01:10:10):
and I would go and buy a Maserati or fly
concord every other weekum. Consequently I ran out of all
the money, you know, or went And now we're at
the other end of the ark where royalties don't mean
very much. You don't get people don't buy records obviously,
so the Spotify don't pay you particularly well. So the

(01:10:31):
royalties have died out, and it's all about being on
the road as Squeeze, and about about trying to reinvent
who we are in a digit in a digital world.
If you like, let's just assume you never toured again.
Do you have enough money to get to the end. No,

(01:10:52):
I definitely don't, you know, I know him. As Nickolos says,
we're in the last we're in the final third. I
think that's a lovely quote. And yeah, we're in the
final third, and I wouldn't want to stop anyway. I've
only just in the last ten years begin began to
own the fact that I am one half of Squeeze,

(01:11:15):
and I do enjoy who I am, and I like
to sing the songs. And that's taken a lot of therapy,
a lot of time, a lot of understanding, and a
lot of respect for the people that I work with,
particularly Glenn. It's taken a long time for me too
to hold his hand. Oh what did you believe previously?

(01:11:37):
I don't know what I believed, but it always seemed
to me like the competition was fruitless, really, and yeah,
I wanted to be in competition the whole time. I
couldn't sing like Glenn, obviously, I can't sing like Paul Carrot,
but I learned to sing like me, and so when
I do black coffee in bed myself, it sounds like me,

(01:12:00):
and I think that's absolutely fine. And when I go
out and do my solo stand up show, which is
like an hour long. It's like tell tales, to tell jokes,
and I play a couple of songs. It's kind of
that's all I all. I really really need. Um, you know,
I enjoy that. I enjoyed the camaraderie of Squeeze again,
and I'm really missing not being onto, not just for

(01:12:23):
the band, but for the crew, for the audience, for
the whole chemistry of what being a human being is
all about. Let's go back to prior to that. Prior
to that realization, So you felt like less than half
I did because I was I just couldn't handle. I

(01:12:47):
suppose the fact that I found it difficult to play
the guitar. I found it difficult to sing that kind
of guy. That was the dyslexic, backward kid who is
in the special needs class. That was always me and
Squeeze in my head, and I couldn't express that to
other people in the band. So I used to just

(01:13:08):
dwell on it and be isolated. But I don't have
to be that person anymore. I am much more confident,
and UM, I really have our audience to thank for that,
and I have the people that are around squeeze to
thank for that too, and my and my my wife Louise,

(01:13:30):
who constantly holds my my hand. Well, you know, we'll
let me put it this way, other than squeeze. When
you look at the world at large prior to this realization,
did you feel less there or did you put other
people on a pedestal? Yeah? I did feel less than

(01:13:53):
and I did put You know, when when you're in
a band and the lead singer is also the lead
guitarist and he writes all the melodies and he's the
one all the girls look at, you know, you kind
of step backwards towards your amplifier just a little quicker

(01:14:14):
because you don't feel like you can be that guy.
But that's okay. It's like, not everybody can be Pete
Townsend and not everybody can be Roger Adultery. So if
I was one of them, I was probably Roger. Well.
I guess that the reason I go deeper here is,
you know, I'm stunned at these people who were big

(01:14:34):
successes in their twenties and thirties. I was brought up
in a family where they always said somebody else can
do better, and it was It has him into like
the last year that I've had this realization like you have. Well,
I'm here, I'm on the landscape. I'm equal. But I
know people would verbalize that before, but I never believed.
I never believe that either. And you know that's that's

(01:14:57):
accept acceptance and it comes with age. I think, you know,
and I think I'm very fortunate to be in the
place that I'm at. There's no rush anymore to do anything, particularly,
you know, there's no rush to make a new album,
although I would love to make a new album. I

(01:15:19):
think this being in lockdown is like being in three
It's kind of like there's nothing to do. You kind
of sit around. And I've just been starting writing songs again,
so I'm in a good frame of mind. And um yeah,
I'm looking forward to the day when we get back
out there. So what is your personal songwriting process? Um? Well,

(01:15:43):
I sit at my desk where I am now, and
I wait for lyrics to arrive. I don't go chasing them.
I might get an idea. I like today, I had
an idea and it came to me. I put down
the idea on my computer screen and it just poured out.

(01:16:04):
It just came straight out, and I sent it to
a friend of mine in Austin and she just wrote
the music for it. Well, I guess what I'm asking.
Are you the type of person? Well, you know it's
ten am. I have to go to the shed and
right or you're waiting for inspiration. No, I am fortunate
insofar as um, whenever the news takes me, I will

(01:16:28):
sit in the shed for as long as it takes
to write whatever I need to write. Um. You know
the Randy Newmans school of going in in the morning
from ten o'clock till five suits me. Fine, that sounds great.
That's what I love to do. So for instance, if
we were going to make a new Squeeze record, that's
why I would do it. Cut myself off from ten

(01:16:48):
to five every day. Okay? Are your best songs written
when you say I have to work or when lightning strikes?
The best songs I've ever written from the subconscious mind?
They just appear. I don't know what they're about or
where they come from. Um. People, and then you go

(01:17:09):
out on the road and people interview and they say
what's that song about? And you go, actually, I have
to think about that, you know, because sometimes it comes
from the from the back part of the brain which
is kind of floating around black, you know, in the
in sunlight, and it takes a while for it to
see through into the lower valleys of the front of

(01:17:30):
the mind. Well, like today, you say this poured out
of you. Once it pours out of you, is that
it or do you change it into? What degree do
you change it? Um? Well, it depends. So I'm working
with writing for Glenn. I have Glenn right in the
middle of my mind, and I think about Glenn constantly
while I'm writing, because he's the guy who's going to

(01:17:51):
be singing it. So and I've got to think about
his personality, what he feels, what he believes, and try
and get into what he would like to sing. If
I'm writing with Paul Carrot, I try and think about
what Paul would like to sing. So I'd rather like
being a tailor, you know, lyrically, I've got to kind
of dress the person in something that would suit them best. Well,

(01:18:14):
I guess let's just assume you don't have a raw inspiration,
but you want to write. You go out to the shed.
Are you a procrastinator? Do you have to serve the
web sharpen your pencils or do you go right into it. Oh, no,
I don't do it. I just I just get there.
I used this software called I a Writer, and I

(01:18:34):
A Writer is just the black screen with white typing
on it. There's no nothing around the outside of the screen,
so you only see the words. And I just sit
here and I tie up and imagine. I don't stress,
and I just let it come, and then I'll come
back the following day and read it. And if it's rubbish,

(01:18:55):
I just don't bother finishing it. If it's good, then
I've finished it. Is it sometimes hard to get into
the same mood from what you've done before and to
finish the song. Not really, No, I'm kind of once
I'm in the in the groove to write, it comes
thick and fast. And you know, that's what I try

(01:19:16):
and get across to the writers that I'm teaching that
they have to go with their instinct and not and
not really challenge themselves or make it difficult for themselves,
but just go with how you feel within. You know,
it's it's it's it's it's a gift after all, having
the ability to write lyrics, I feel, so you know,
you have to nurture the gift and be with it.

(01:19:40):
So let's just assume you finish the song. Would you
change it or it's done? It's done. Um. Well, again,
it's who I'm working with, and I'm working with Glen.
We normally tweak the songs lyrically. We might change the
world or two. Um. And on the last two albums
of Squeeze, Glenn has contributed quite a lot lyric lyrically

(01:20:03):
him himself. UM. So that's been a different dynamic for
both of us. And that's been that's been fun and
different for us. And then if I'm working with somebody else,
I probably wouldn't tweak it quite as much. I don't
think now when you say Glenn writes lyrics that after

(01:20:23):
you've established something he then changes it or he comes
with his own lyrics. No, he predominantly on the last
couple of records he's come he's changed some of the
influences of the lyrics, kept what he feels are the
best lines, I guess, and then embellishes it with his
own structure, in his own ideas. And I suppose that's

(01:20:47):
what co writing is about. It's about being able to
share that. It's never happened until recently, I have to say. So,
you know, we've for a long time had the Bernie
Telpen Elton John relationship, but without the money, where you know,
I would deliver the lyrics walk away, and then the
next thing I would be on stage playing this, this, this,
these songs. But that dynamic has changed. And what lyrics

(01:21:12):
are you most proud of? Um, jeez, I'm proud of
a lot of the earlier stuff, particularly the East Side
Story album. I was talking about this the other day
that it's the most complete album from a lyrical point
of view that I feel very proud of every track.
And I think that's because Elvis Costello was producing it.

(01:21:33):
And Elvis is a dear friend and and a dear
friend because I respect him so much as a writer.
So when we're in the studio together, he would be
like the teacher that I would be trying to impress.
So I'd come in with a lyric and I'd read
it to him, or Glen would sing him a song
and I'd be looking at him for a reaction. And
that's what made that record special. So sometimes having a

(01:21:56):
producer come in from the outside can really enhance your songwriting.
Skills and it makes it less less kind of, um,
it gives it more oxygen, I think. And let's assume
you're not on a project. Are you writing anyway? Yeah,

(01:22:17):
I'm trying to. I'm trying to write short story, short stories,
which I'm learning a lot about. I'm constantly writing down
notes about lyrics. Or I'm working on the next Zoom concert.
I've got nil Nil Rodgers is joining me on the
next one, which I'm looking forward to. And then if

(01:22:37):
I'm not doing that and I'm teaching or you know,
I'm just sort of focusing on staying in the day. Okay,
So who do you respect lyrically? Well, it's got to
be people like Johnie Mitchell, um, Pete Townsend. Um, it's

(01:23:01):
people from the past. In many ways. Alex Turner is
a lyricist of most recent years that I love. I
think he's just a complete genius, genius. Um. There's a
lyricist called Chris Wood who's a folk singer who I

(01:23:21):
really like. Um. Other than that, it's few and far between.
I guess can you name any specific Johnny Mitchell or
Pete Townsends Lost? Um? What uh you know? When I
listened to the Blue album. I mean, it's an obvious

(01:23:43):
album to take but lyrically it's a very moving record.
Um and you know, when I listened to that record,
it takes me to a very soft and feminine place.
I'm like the new Bob Dylan record, which doesn't take
me to a feminine past, but it takes me to
a place of inspiration. So there are still genius, it's

(01:24:07):
still people from the generation before the impressed, like Dylan,
Neil Neil Young's new album, well, Neil's Neil Young's new
album Homegrown is certainly and it's very good recorded from
a previous era. It's certainly Bob. Certainly Bob Dylan has
been through a lot of changes, and I'm a big

(01:24:28):
Dylan fan. But I thought the two previous records, uh,
we're overrated, and that seems to be the word now
in terms of the new record. It's something I can respect,
but I don't find that easy to listen to. What
has your experience been? Exactly that? Exactly that? But but

(01:24:49):
that's the challenge for me. You know, it's on repeat
in the car because I find it sometimes difficult to
listen to and I'm not sure what that is, So
I to get to the bottom of it by constantly
listening to it. But it's the lyrical challenge that he
throws up that is the most important thing. He's portraying
such beautiful imagery, um that I could only dream of writing.

(01:25:16):
And that's what I I indulge in that kind of lyric. Okay,
So needless to say, you started your career in the
pre internet era. What do you think about business and
music today? Well, I don't know anything about business and
music today. It doesn't exist for me. We're on the

(01:25:36):
outskirts of that. We used to be very heavily in
the middle with A and M and Warner Brothers and
Universal and people like that. But that's not out. You
know that we were in the department store, I guess,
in the shopping mault of music and industry in those days.
Now with the corner shop, you know, we've just got
a few things that we sell, but they're fresh, um,

(01:25:57):
you know, fresh fruits and fresh vegetables and stuff, and
and that's really actually I remember Pete Townshend saying to me,
you know, you've got to stop thinking of squeezes as like,
you know, the big shop that you're working in, you're
working in a corner shop now, you know. And that's
exactly what it's like. And I love that. I think
it's great. And we have more fans now than I

(01:26:20):
think we've ever had. We played in the Atlanta in September,
and our audience was so young. When we came on stage,
I looked at Glennie looked at me, and we went
and we at the right gig, you know. And this
is an audience that had found us, I guess via Spotify,
you know, and via the internet. So we are a

(01:26:41):
new band just broadening our rises, leaving Squeeze out of it.
Do you pay attention to what's popular on the charts,
what is being released or you say I'm in Squeeze world. Um, yeah,
I take on board what's going on in the industry,
you know. I listened to things that I think are great,

(01:27:02):
like Laura Marlin. I'd love to listen to things that
come along and stroke my imagination lyrically. But other than that,
not really that fast. It's not for me. It's for
a different generation, which begs the question of hip hop. Yeah,
that's not really my thing. I don't think lyrically. I

(01:27:25):
love Storm C, I love Dave, I think they're both
incredible lyricists. They're like, you know, they're like the Dickens
of their day, um, and you know, um, people like
that are extraordinary storytellers. UM. And that's what I find

(01:27:47):
very appealing about that kind of music. Music when it's
done right well, Chris, I think people have really gotten
an idea of who you are. You certainly become more
three D than what I've known previous Slee, even being
on one of your webcasts. Thanks so much for doing this.
Thank you, it's been annment. Until next time. This is
Bob left Send