Daryl Hall

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Podcast. My
guest today is the one and only Daryl Hall. Darryll,
you've been out this summer with Todd Rundgren on the road.
How did that come together? Well, I, you know, I
have what I call a body of work album that
I put out in one February March, I Forget and uh,

(00:32):
and I wanted to tour behind it and play songs
that uh that are you know that are my solo
part of my solo work, and and and I wanted
somebody to sort of make the Dallas House the life
of Dallas has experience, uh come to the stage. And

(00:53):
my first thought was my old friend Todd Rundgren. And
because it really is a perfect combination. Um, you know,
his his musical history and mine are a sort of
very unique and very unique and similar, and and uh
it's a great It wound up being a really great show. Uh.
He uses my band, and then we do stuff together

(01:15):
and stuff separately, and it's all really it's all really
working out very well. Now. You're both from the Philly
area in the late sixties. Uh, Todd was from Upper Darby.
He had the band Naz were you aware of all that?
Did you like that? Did you know Todd back then?
I didn't know Todd back in the in the late sixties.

(01:36):
He worked, uh, he was doing that stuff, right, he
was in NAZ and what he struck stopped at all
those bands, which I was aware of, but I was
I was definitely well ensconced in the world of Philly soul,
you know, with Gamble and Huff and Tommy Bell and
people like that, and and UH and and all the
all the radio stations that were involved in that UH,

(01:57):
in that UH genre. And so we didn't really know
each other, and we met in UH. We really met
in New York in the early seventies, appropriately at at
a movie showing of Fantase. And how did Todd end

(02:17):
up uh doing the producing the third Holland Oldts album,
war Babies. Well, it started with that. You know. I
thought I had just moved to New York and I
I was experiencing New York. You know, I was really
full of beans. It was like Philadelphia was one experience
I had left that and I said, I want to

(02:39):
do something completely different and really opened my mind up
and and opened my mind to the sound of New
York when I said the sound, you know, the the
actual street sounds of New York. And I wanted to
make a record to write songs that reflected that. And
I was aware of Todd's he had just started working
with Utopia, and I was I went to see him,

(03:03):
uh a bunch of times, really, and I was so
impressed with what he was doing. And also that was
what he was in his his role. He was he was,
he was he was producing everybody from Alice Cooper to
the New York Dolls to god knows who, you know,
a million people. And Uh, I said, okay, well, why
don't this this on paper sounds good? You know, an

(03:23):
ex Philadelphia moved to New York. Obviously he's gonna understand,
you know, creative person. And let's try and see what happens.
And what war Babies album is the result of what happened?
You know? Well, that was your third album on Atlantic,
and it was not commercially successful. Now, you know most

(03:43):
people when things are not happening, they sort of break
apart from those people. How did you maintain a relationship
with Todd? Uh? I have always respected time and and
it was just because it wasn't a commercially accessive, accessible
or with commercially accepted album that that really wasn't what
my agenda was about with that album. Um, I was

(04:06):
naive enough and uh idealistic enough to just say, okay,
let's move on. I did that. That was that was
an interesting experience, and let's let me use that and
and uh incorporate that into whatever the future is. And
I never really lost track of Todd over the years,
and and uh and so we we've sort of maintained
this kind of loose relationship for all those years. Now

(04:29):
ultimately you and your partner produced the Hall and Oates
albums together, Daryl Hall and John Oates. Uh what did
you learn from working with Todd? Um? I learned what
not to do? Don't know? So what shouldn't you do?
Try try and be accessible, don't don't be inaccessible for

(04:53):
its own sake. Uh, that that is a lesson I learned.
Uh It Todds of stubborn, a stubborn guy, and he
he has a a version to uh to being easily accepted.
And I used to have arguments with him about it. Said, Todd,

(05:13):
you know this song, this could work out really well
and a lot of people would like it. He and
he did everything he could have like Funk with that idea.
You know. Uh, It's just it's his personality and he's
in his mellowness and age now he he has accepted
the idea that you could be accessible, which is even
a better reason for us to be working together on stage. Okay,

(05:35):
do you think if someone else had produced War Babies
or you've done it yourself, it would have been more
commercially viable. It would have been more commercially viable, but
it would have been the same album. Maybe I don't
even know if it would have been the same songs.
Uh it was. I tend to write for projects, and
uh that was written with the idea that I was

(05:57):
going to work with Todd in New York and New
York environment, and and uh I may have written a
completely different set of songs on my own with somebody
else or whatever. You know. Tell me about writing for projects,
what do you mean there? Well, I I don't write.
I mean I do write randomly, but I tend to

(06:18):
not not focus my writing until I know that I'm
going to either work with somebody or there's some project
that's coming up. Um, and then I write with that
in mind. It's sort of like energizes me and I
start writing like crazy and you know, coming up with
ideas and do this all of a piece, and uh

(06:40):
that that tends to come out. I like to keep
a momentum going. I recently, i've uh deviated from that.
And I didn't like that because I was doing a
lot of false starts because I'm so busy with other things,
and I would get all excited about something to do it,
and then it would sort of like sit on the shelf,

(07:00):
and uh, I don't like doing that. I like working
for the project, putting out the project, keeping the enthusiasm
going for the project, and taking it through to its completion.
So what would be the time window prior to going
into the studio we call an album a project? When
would you get excited and then start to compose when

(07:22):
I knew I was gonna start doing it, you know,
when when it when it started getting scheduled and I
knew who I was gonna work with. Uh, And and
even in the early stages of the recordings, I would uh,
my my mind would be on fire, you know. And
that's and I write things right, you know, very spontaneously
and quickly. Uh Uh. That's usually the way as worked

(07:46):
for me. Okay, And you say you change the content
depending on who you're working with, Yeah, to some degree,
I changed the mood. I might change. I won't change
the emotional uh source of of the song that that
comes from me and my experiences. But as far as

(08:08):
production goes and even my the melodies I choose, with
the chords I choose, it really has to do a
lot with with with with with with the moment, with
with what what I'm trying to um with the people
that I'm working with. Really, Okay, let's go back to
the beginning. You grow up in the Philly area, in

(08:29):
town and the suburbs where I grew up in Pottstown,
which is a Chest County and it was it was
an industrial town with farms all around it. And I
sort of had my feet on both sides. Uh uh.
I lived in amidst farm land, a bicycle right away
from the deepest neighborhoods that you want to deal with.

(08:53):
And uh so I've always been a sort of a
rural urban person, you know, a foot in both sides.
And what did your parents do for a living? My
mother wore it was a singer and and she was
in a band. And she worked also at a radio station,
the Pottstown Radio Station. And uh, and my father was

(09:14):
around a pattern making department because Potstown was at that
time was a very industrial town. And how many kids
in the family. I have a sister that's it five
years younger than me. And what's your relationship with her?
Extremely close? Anything you see visually? Uh, ever is my

(09:37):
collaboration with her? You know, she's a graphic a graphic designer, artist, ah,
many many things, and she she sort of controls my
visual world. Okay, I'm a little younger than you, and
I remember listening to the early sixties radio and knowing
some of those tracks, listening to sports and then the

(09:57):
Beatles hit and it really took off. What was your
experience listening to radio and getting into music. Well, in
Philadelphia it's a really unique environment, or it was a
really unique environment, continues to be really to some degree. Uh.

(10:18):
And in the when I was a teenager, pop radio
was not popular. Uh in Philadelphia people the hip Wi
Zi anyway, it wasn't popular with those people. And and
if you were cool, you listened to you either listened
to soul of music which was everywhere, and that was

(10:38):
that was baby food, or even the precursor of that,
which was was street corner music, which was the acapella
music and doo wop and early early vocal rock and roll. Uh.
And there was a guy named Jerry Blavitt who was
a very very influential person to people who cared about music.
And I was just a total devu tea of that,

(11:01):
and I was just I was sort of a street
corner singer and uh um. And that was my beginnings
doing that. And then that's closely aligned with the whole
soul thing, you know, I mean vocal groups, uh, whether
they be the Temptations or or the Dandeliers. You know,
it's it's it's it's just a progression of the same

(11:21):
kind of music. But we rejected. The Beatles were not
even thought about in Philadelphia until later later period, let's say,
around Revolver Stargard Pepper, people started saying, oh, the Beatles
have something interesting to offer Philadelphians. Before that, they just
looked at him like a bar band. Okay, you say

(11:43):
you were street corner singer, You're living in a rural area.
What did that literally look like? Being a Street corner singer. Well,
I my parents lived in a rural area, but my
all her, all their friends lived in black neighborhood in Philadelphia.
I mean sorry in pots Uh so I would I've
sort of lived. Sometimes I would sleep at home, but

(12:05):
I would, especially in the summertime, I would just be
over there on on on Walnut Street in Pottstown. And
uh and it was it was. It was music on
the streets. That's the best way I could put it.
It was it was an integrated neighborhood. And uh and
it was the kind of music I liked, everything from
gospel music and church music from the corner churches to

(12:27):
uh uh two people playing record players in their houses
on the front porches and stuff like that. Okay, you
come from a soul influence. What about doo wop or
Dion and the Belmonts where it was part of your consciousness?
Was that something different? Well? Do Deanna go abouts were
way too pop? I mean that that that's uh that

(12:50):
kind of thing. Yes, I do want music. Vocal group man,
you know, people just standing around um and and that
kind of stuff. Okay, so you're growing up. What kind
of kid? Are you? A good student? Bad student? Have
a lot of friends out you know, an outsider. I
was an outsider. I was a restless, a restless person. Uh,

(13:15):
I was you know, I'm a I know you know this, Bob.
I'm an avid reader, like a book worm and in
the story and and all that kind of thing. And
that put me in odds as a child. You know,
I was a good student. Yeah, very good student until
I so I got to be a teenager and then
I became a very restless and indifferent student. And uh,

(13:36):
I was more interested in, uh hanging out than I
was uh doing my homework. So at what point did
you learn to play musical instrument? I started playing piano
at five, and uh, and I played. I took you know,
former piano lessons until I was about twelve or thirteen.

(13:58):
And uh then my mother or for some bizarre reason,
decided that she wanted me to play the trombone and
I and I picked up the trombone. And I pretty
much hated the trombone, you know, I mean, what cornball instrument.
But I wanted to play the saxophone. But she said
something about your mouth shape isn't right for you know,
why didn't I get a saxophone? I don't know, but

(14:20):
uh uh, So I stopped the piano lessons and then
started playing on my own and writing songs and and
becoming you know, learning sort of playing self taught, so
you know, self teaching. And then when I when I
was I went to tump of University music school so
that I resumed my more formal piano studies. And I

(14:43):
was actually a piano opera major. And I went there
for five years. And but you didn't graduate, right? I
quit a few weeks before in graduation. What was the
reason there? I had a choice between having to complete
this rigorous UH student teaching program or playing a bar band.

(15:04):
And I was in a I thought it was a
good bar band, and and my supervisor says, you can't
do both. You have to choose your life. Either you're
going to do this music education thing or you or
you're going to be a rock and roll singer. And
I said, okay, you just made my mind by now.
Frequently when someone has as much success as you do,

(15:26):
their old college reaches out and gives him an honorary
degree or something. Has temple reached out. Yeah I didn't.
I didn't bother with it. I've been I've been offered
honorary honorary degrees by Berkeley and Temple, and I just
I'm not interested. I don't care. Okay. So when you're
going to Temple, you're then living in Philly. Oh yeah.

(15:51):
I moved to Philadelphia when I was a seventeen and
immediately jumped into the heart of the whole thing. And uh,
that was the that was the great thing about being
going to Tumpy University where in North Philadelphia, at five
blocks from the Uptown Theater and uh and you know,
and in the middle of the one of the deepest
black neighborhoods in the city. And uh I lived in

(16:16):
inhabited that area for five years. And and beyond that,
of course, uh and that that really quote of sort
of formed me. You know, I was I was. I
mentioned what I was into in Pottstown, but then when
I got to Affiliate really just kind of locked in
and I immediately met, uh with within a few months,

(16:39):
I met Gamble and huff And and Tommy Bell and
people like that, and uh so it all it all
started formalizing and and you know, coalescing. Okay, So when
you went to Temple on this music program, what did
do you think do you think, well, you know, I
got to do something now, or I want to do
something you know more class to call, probably want to

(17:01):
mark time before I become a rock and roller soul star.
What was in your mind? Well, No, I was learning
things in school. I learned how to be a ranger
and and uh you know, I did a lot of
sophicio and you know, I home home my craft, uh formally,
but at the same time, I was sitting in the corner,

(17:22):
and I was hanging out and making records with the
Temp Tones and and uh and and and hanging out
with Tommy Bell and people like that. So it was
that to me, that was my real education. Was was
was was being introduced and and working with with with
the early Philadelphia sound. Well, how did you meet tom
Bell and Gamble and Huff. I had a band, We

(17:46):
formed a temple called the Temp Talents. It was a
vocal group and uh we they used to have just
like the Apollo in New York. They used to have
talent shows when I believe it was Wednesday nights and
uh we uh did did a talent show at the
at the Uptown Theater and we won the talent show

(18:07):
and the prize was you got to make a record
with Kenny and Leon and and uh so they had
this you know, small label, Arctic Records. We went into
the sport track studio Virtue Sound Studios and uh uh
Frankie Virtue Studio and uh uh and and we made

(18:28):
uh we made a record. And uh, this guy Jimmy Bishop,
who was a DJ and one of the top DJs
in phil in the in w D as in Philadelphia,
uh picked us up and started sort of semi managing us.
And uh and you know, we had a chart record
in w D A S charts, R and B charts

(18:51):
and uh. Through that, I can't remember how I met Tommy.
I actually can't remember, but immediately got along with him
and I used to go and hang out and he
used to have an office at Cameo Parkway. This was
before Philadelphia National and H and I used to go
and sit there and listen to him play the piano

(19:12):
and come up with ideas. And uh so I certainly
learned a lot from Tommy Bell. What year are we in?
Uh sixty? Okay? The fact that you were white? Did
they see color? Were you the only white guy? Was

(19:33):
it accepted? Was it integrated in those days. That was
it was, it was integrated. I never I never once
had a problem with any of that stuff back in
the day, and I never have since then. So you
have a dream, you have a record, it's on the chart.
What did that feel like? I mean, it's played on
the radio. It was wild. I remember I was walking

(19:56):
on on Broad Street. Uh. And these kids, they're really
cool kids, like you know, it's cool Italian kids. They
look like it could have been on American dand Stand
or something. And then and they're walking down the street
and they're singing girl and I Love You and they're
like harmonizing. And I ran up to him and I said, hey, man,
that's my song, and that's my song and they went,
oh yeah, I get the funk out of here. You know,

(20:27):
So you have that one success, then what about a
follow up? Oh? I don't know. I wasn't thinking about
follow ups. I My brain wasn't. It's never been there, Bob.
You know, I'm not a commercially oriented person. And the
irony is that I've had such success commercially, but I
don't really care about that stuff. I don't write for

(20:48):
those kind of with with that in mind, Um, I
U I we made another record, you know, and and
it was called say These Words of Love. He didn't
do anything. And then I moved on and the Tempts
broke up. And then, uh, like I said, I moved on. Okay,
when you moved on, you know, you had the singing groups.

(21:10):
At what point did you form a band? And it
was more you know, rock and soul. I never really well,
I was in a bar band for a while and
that was what I quit the Temple for. And it
was called Paling the Profits and they were that was
the closest thing to a bar band I was ever in.
And uh, I don't know. I didn't really get along

(21:31):
with Paler that well, he's a he's a good guy,
but I you know, we we bumped heads. So that
didn't last too long. And uh then I started just
sort of kicking around and and and using my connections.
I started hanging out with uh with in Stigma Sound

(21:51):
and doing backup work, doing on the odd keyboard playing
and things like that, odds and ends and uh and
and sort of hooked up with this guy named John
Madera who was his One of his claim to fame
was he wrote it at the Hop okay, and you know,
and he wrote you Don't on Me with Leslie Gore
and one to three with Letty you know, yeah, I

(22:13):
mean that's that's John Madera. You know, he wrote those
songs and he had a production of production and publishing company,
and I sort of attached myself to that, and he
gave me a little money occasionally, and I played, you know,
I do sessions for like thirty bucks and stuff like that,
and and well I lived in a place it only
cost eighty five dollars a month, so it was it

(22:35):
wasn't that hard to live and uh and then I
uh uh yeah, the end of all that is when
I met John and we decided to play some songs
together acoustically and uh and we started playing in coffee
houses and places like that. And that's when that Okay,

(22:56):
when you met John and you formed men and playing
pistically was that because it was the moment the late
sixties what was going on? Because that seems to be
a little bit of a change from your soul background.
It was a change. I think that uh, meeting John,
I was the reason that I got together with him

(23:17):
is because he was involved in a scene that I
didn't know anything about I knew nothing about bluegrass music
or folk music or any of that kind of stuff.
It just didn't it wasn't, you know, it was invisible
to me. And uh, I was sort of fascinated by
it because I was still a student, you know, and

(23:37):
I was trying to expand my mind and I was learning,
trying to learn about things that I didn't know that
and I did gravitate the bluegrass music because it's it's
it's over kind of soul. I mean, bluegrass is very
soul for music. And we started I started listening to that.
He started turning me onto all that stuff. And that

(23:57):
was really how we form related in our early relationship. Musically,
was my natural what did I do, you know, my
my background, my soul thing, and and his what I
what they call these days Americana, you know, and and

(24:17):
mixing those two things together. Okay, you're doing this. It's
just one of the many things you're doing or you're saying,
wait a second, this is my road to success. Well,
at that point we were sort of doing both. I
was still with Gamble and Huff doing stuff. But one day,
I mean, I can remember this, I had made a

(24:40):
decision and Kenny. He came to He came to me,
He said, do you want do you want to work
with Philadelphia International? You want to be a songwriter, you
want to be an artist? And I I said no,
I said, I think I want to move to New
York with Oates and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna

(25:01):
take what we do and go out of Philadelphia. I
just wanted. I wanted to expand outside of Philadelphia. I
don't know why, but I did. And so that was
a decision made and we moved to New York and
then all that other ship started. Okay, did you let
me stay? When you're in Philadelphia? What is your rep
is you? Are you known as that guy who's got

(25:22):
that voice or you're just one of the people. You know,
How were you perceived? Uh? Yeah, I was perceived that way,
that that guy, that guy that sings that way. Uh
I was. You know, it was a relatively small environment

(25:42):
and community, and uh uh yeah, I got it. I had.
I had a reputation for doing what I do. Now,
for those on the inside, they know that success is
not accidental and usually it's a matter of relationships. Working
in religious anybody's working in mand is not successful knows that,

(26:03):
so are you relatively a hustler? Connector to what degree?
Was John like that? What was going on? I am
a person who takes advantage of opportunities whenever I can
find them, and if they if if I feel like
they make sense to me. I'm certainly more that way

(26:24):
than Oates was. Okay, so you moved to New York,
no manager, no band, Where do you live? What's the
first step? Well, I did sort of have a manager. Okay,
so we'll go back to that. I I did not
get along with John Madera. Ultimately we parted company not

(26:48):
so well. And he but the one thing that he
did for me is he had a temporary he used
to lease his publishing out and at the time he
at least his publishing publishing out the Chapel Music up
in New York. And I went up there and with
him to go to the office one time I don't

(27:10):
know why, and met this kid, uh named Tommy Montola,
and ah, he was years old and he had an
office the size of a telephone booth and uh, I
don't know, I'm not even sure if that was his office.
But anyway, he said, what's going on, you know, and

(27:34):
we we became sort of started talking, became friends, and
he heard what I did and he said, basically said,
why don't you move to New York City and I'll
manage you? And he was years old. Well I was
only twenty two and h and I said, Okay, I

(27:55):
can't stand what I'm doing, so let's go for it.
And he started pretending to be a manager. And uh.
One thing that happened that chapel, which was very useful,
is that this guy named Norm Wiser, who is his boss,
hooked hooked me up with a trip and John too

(28:20):
too with with a trip to the West Coast and
we went to l A and we started auditioning to people,
four people, and we uh we wound up with this
guy named Errol her mc grath who had a little
tiny label called Clean Records, and even he used to

(28:41):
be sort of a he had a salad of musicians
and artists and all that. And we played for him
and he said, would you like to sign to our label?
And we said yes. And then he for whatever his
reasons that this is a part behind the scenes that
I don't know about. Somehow that parlayed into me auditioning

(29:02):
for a Reef Martin and an Amen and Jerry Greenberg
U in New York City. And the next thing I knew,
Earl gave up his claim to us and I was
on Atlantic Records. Well of course, or or all ended
up running Rolling Stones Records, which was through Atlantic. Who
knows what the story was there? What year we in? Okay,

(29:26):
this this is about n Okay? So was it you
and John that are out there? Yeah? This is this
is a whole notes story. Tommy makes a deal with
Atlantic Records. Tommy didn't have the ability to make that question.

(29:47):
He was twenty one years old. No, No, this guy
Role McGrath made a deal. He roma grath said, check
these guys out. I sat down to a broken piano
and aid for a Reef Marten with with with the
flu and and and and am it And they said
you're signed, buddy. And that's how it happened. Okay, who

(30:09):
made the deal for you? Who? Need you have a lawyer? What?
How did that happen? Yeah? I had a lawyer and
I can't remember his name. I did have a lawyer. Yes,
a lawyer was involved. Okay. Frequently when someone is knocked
around as much as you have. If you have any success,
somebody comes out and says, I have paper you know,
you know I had a contract those songs of mind

(30:30):
that happened to you at all. Yes, John Madera, John
Madera has been living off me for years. He claims
made claims of of uh of owning demos that I
did on my own and with John and with this,
with these guys, this guy named Tommy Sellers, we had
this kind of studio band we called Gulliver and he

(30:53):
put them out under Hall and Oates Record early days,
all on Oates and all that, and he never I
never saw a dime at all. And that's that story.
But yes, of course that that inevitably happens. Okay, so
you signed with Atlantic, you're making a record. We're along
the line, do you have a band or if you
ever have a band. Well, we started when we were

(31:18):
playing in these tiny places. It was just the two
of us, and then we we did add a drummer
and and a guy who uh played upright bass, and
and an electric bass. And so by the time we
actually had a this beginning of a record deal, we
actually had a four piece band, and we we went

(31:40):
in the studio with the first album with part of
the with those guys to some degree, and also a
Reef studio bands, you know, various people that that he
liked to use for the Atlantic records. Okay, you moved
from Philly to New York and with Tommy's you know, instigation.
What was it like suddenly being in New York And

(32:03):
did you ever gain a rep in New York or
just Tommy got you to go to the West coast
we meet her in McGrath, etcetera. No, we we didn't
really move to New York until we had already signed
with Atlantic and we're we're in the process of starting
to make the first record and and so we we
were newcomers in town and uh we were in the

(32:23):
Atlantic studios and uh uh like that, I mean that
was we weren't really even playing in New York. We uh,
it was mostly just for recording and and then we played.
We were playing in Philadelphia, we played a few other places.
We weren't really playing a lot a lot at that
period of time. Okay, you meet John, you ultimately lived together.

(32:46):
You know the nature of these relationships as you kind
of grow up with people, then you grow apart you're
in you know, buses. How do you maintain a friendship
if at all? Or how do you start to argue
over you know, this ends up being over decades. Uh,
it's it's it becomes sort of very similar to brothers

(33:10):
in my case, in John's case. You know, you get
along with your brother. Sometimes you don't get along with
your brother. You uh, you know you don't have to
be around that person, but yet you know you see
him at Christmas time? You know, hey, how you doing?
And and that's that's as much as you need to
do that kind of stuff. That's that's that's pretty much
describes my relationship with John. Uh. We we have experienced

(33:34):
a lot together over the years, and we've experienced a
lot separately. And time changes. Time changes things. It changes
your relationship. It doesn't change certain things, uh, brothers or brothers,
but time does change things. Okay, see him make a
record with the wreath. You know who's some of a
lot of experience and a lot of success. What was

(33:55):
that like? And what you learn from a reef? Everything?
I learned everything from Reef. He he was, he was unbelievable.
I I will never stop saying that I, uh, the
best thing ever happened to me was was my relationship
with Reef. He was a He was to me A

(34:18):
Reef and Quincy Jones are the two best producers in
modern music. Uh. He could do anything. He could put
anything together and make it work and make it real.
His his his musical knowledge was so desparate, it was
so all encompassing, h that you couldn't throw anything at him,
No artist could throw anything at him that he didn't

(34:41):
have the ability to relate to and understand and and
and formulate into something coherent and and good. Um. He
was a real gentleman. And I had a very close
relationship with him for years and years, even after all
this stuff went down, Uh, and all the way to

(35:01):
his death. A relationship with Okay, a lot of people
say they make the first record even though you had
experience in your case, and they're kind of overwhelmed and
they let the producers steer them. Was that your experience?
Who you have so much experience you could sort of
stand up for what you wanted? Well, I I didn't

(35:22):
know what I wanted with a Reef and the whole
Oats record. I don't even like that record. If you
want the truth, Uh, but what I like what a
Reef did to it. That that's the best part. The
best part is a Reef of that record. Um um.
It was a It was a bunch of songs that
we had written while we were in school and all that,

(35:42):
and it was sort of a compilation that we decided
it was a first album, you know. So I was
I was more than happy to have somebody like a
Reef directing the show. Now, I'm not usually like that,
and I don't respond so well to autocratic producers. He
wasn't that, by the way, but uh, I was very

(36:02):
happy that he jumped in and made something out of
that record and out of those songs. Okay, what does
the label say when the first record is not really successful?
They didn't. It was different times. Many they they said,
don't worry about hits, just make great music. And that
was what Alma said to me, and I always respect

(36:26):
him for that. You know. They they believed in developing artists.
So next you make a band in luncheon at what's
the different experience there from making the first album? Well,
I we that was purpose purpose written. That was written
for that project, as I was talking about earlier, and

(36:48):
uh uh, it was a really to me, that was
a whole of its album. Um, there was a lot
of John's John could remat it a lot to that album,
and She's Gone is the ultimate contribution. That is the
ultimate Hall of Notts song because it was written by
all of notes and uh uh it was really really

(37:14):
exquisitely produced album, interestingly produced. Uh. I don't think there's
anything like it. It's a bizarre album, but in its
own way. Uh. And I'm I'm I continue to be
very proud of that album. I think that was a
great album and it and it defines whatever. And if
you want to talk about Hall and Oates, that's that's

(37:36):
the record to pay attention to. Now. Frequently when someone
writes a classic, they know it. And did you know
She's Gone was a classic? And how did you feel
about the fact that it didn't get traction at that time?
I don't think anybody knows they read a classic until
after the fact. That's impossible to know. I knew that

(37:59):
I were a groups. We wrote a good song. A
reef his eyes lit up the first time I played it.
I sat down and played that that riff that I
play on the on the piano. I knew there was
something good about it, and uh I uh was what's
the word I was? I was patient enough to let it,

(38:22):
let the cards fall, you know. I mean the first
thing that happened was it got covered by a bunch
of people. Uh even Lou Rawls covered it, you know.
Uh Tavaris had a hint with it, um and and
And it wasn't until Sarah smiled at anybody really focused

(38:42):
on it as as as a Darrel and Johns song,
although on quote underground radio and it got a lot
of play back in those days. Okay, since who owned
your publishing at that point, well that's always been a
key subject. Uh, I don't even know. I don't even

(39:09):
know what. I wasn't paying it. I was stupid, like
many people were stupid, and I wasn't paying much attention
to my publishing. I didn't even understand publishing back then.
When did you learn about publishing? Too late? Too late
to who owns your songs? Today? Uh? I owned them
and the other seventy yeah right now? BMG. Okay, just

(39:34):
so I know of the publishing such that if you
write the song, you get seventy five cents on the dollar. No,
I get period yeah, okay. And b MG does not
own it, it's just licensed to b MG. Real they

(39:57):
owned Okay. So out, let's assume you stop working tomorrow
only only owning only you're publishing. Is that enough to
have you make ends meet? Oh? Yeah, probably is okay?

(40:21):
So you make the second album, you make the third album,
At what point do you realize there's gonna be no
future in Atlantic? And how did you end up at
our c A. Well, it was it was ah, it
was more business. I again, this was more Tommy Matola
talking to people. You know, he talked to us, guy

(40:43):
Mike bernick Er and and and I mean I kind
of remember these names, uh at our c A and
I think they offered us a lot of money to leave,
and I think Jerry Greenberg said it's okay, we're not
it's not really it's not really clicking yet, and we'll
let it go. And I'm not quite sure how that
all went down, but that's that's sort of what happened. Well,

(41:05):
I don't know to what degree you were conscious, but
at the time Our c H did not have a
good reputation for breaking acts. I didn't know ship. All
I know is they were giving us you know, Matt All,
I was incredibly ignorant, Bob. That's all I can say. Okay,
So how did you How did you approach the first
album in r C A differently from how you approached

(41:27):
the records on Atlantic Um. I can't remember because Chris Bond,
uh oh, I was working. We had a guitar player
named Christopher Bond, and he was active when they abandoned
Legendent record and he said let me produce you and

(41:50):
I said okay. And it was basically he was the
band's guitar player and he was very talented guy. And
and uh uh, I don't know what else to say
about it. I wrote a bunch of songs and there
they are. So how did you write? Sarah Small sat
down with the piano and wrote it. It was I

(42:13):
was in living in an apartment street and uh I
basically it was a postcard. I mean Sandy was there.
I mean she was in the other room probably when
I wrote it. Well, were you writing it for a
project or did you get an inspiration standing in the
shower and go I gotta run with this? Oh? Well,

(42:34):
I mean I totally inspirational. And then always songs are inspirational.
It just happens to be within the project. But yes,
I I was reading, I knew that I was writing
for that album, and I said, okay, here's a song.
I mean it was. It was total inspiration. And so
let's assume you're writing for a project. You know, you

(42:55):
could sit in your studio and say it's from the guitar. Well,
you could wait for a bull to lightning. What is
that experience like? Or there's certain tricks you use try
to be inspired, Well tricks, There are no tricks. I
I just observe. I observed and opened my heart and

(43:15):
and and that's how things happen. And that's as simple
as that. It's it's it's it's not it's anti intellectual.
Well two things. What happens if hey, what happens? If
it's not coming, I walk away. I just move on.
I don't. I don't. I don't be laboring. Okay, do
you ever say this isn't working, so let me go

(43:36):
to a movie, let me go out for a drive,
and maybe that'll loosen me up. Well, yeah, I don't
even sit down with the idea that I'm going to
do anything. I usually it's an inspiration and I walk
over to the guitar, walk over to a keyboard, and
and and make something happen. It isn't that I sit
there and like a typewriter and say, okay, well this
is working, and this isn't working. It's it's working because

(43:59):
I walk over to the keyboard now and one of
these projects. Did you ever find that you weren't inspired
enough before the recording date hit? No? No, I always
I always rest to the occasion. Uh. The results aren't
always what I was hoping for or whatever, but but

(44:19):
I I rested the occasion. I always do. So how
did you meet the Allen sisters? I met Sarah Allen
in Philadelphia? Uh, actually John introduced me to her. Johnny
used to like to walk around and he still probably
does that, and uh, you know, on the streets and
just say a lot of people and uh, Sandy Allen,

(44:40):
Sarah Allen, who was living around the corner. Not to
my knowledge, she was just out of college. She was
a charter she worked for Charter Airlines, and uh, she
was in and out of town, you know. And she
came over to the house one day and I met
her and I said, no, you know, and we eventually

(45:01):
we did something clicked, and uh we wound up living
together and uh we trying to remember we didn't live
together Philadelphia. We that was right around the time when
I was moving to New York and we we shared
that apartment on eighty two Street, and her sister lived
in Chicago. She was a la kid and uh I

(45:25):
met her around that time. Family stuff, and and we
grew very close, all the three of us, and uh
and and Joanna moved to uh the East Coast, and
we were all sort of hanging out together and it was, uh,
it was, it was. It was really quite nice. I mean, uh,

(45:47):
like I said, John, I was just a kid, and
uh but she was a very eager to learn kid.
She was really a talented musician. I have to say,
she was really talented. Okay, now you've been married, how
did you decide to get married? Is your work? As
things are kind of bouncing off the walls before. So
that was that was I look at that as kids stuff,

(46:09):
you know, as you know the error I grew up in.
You went study and you got married, you know, I mean,
this girl, it was it was a school school stuff,
and uh, we quickly learned that we weren't going to
last you know it was we were just kids, and uh,

(46:30):
it lasted like two and a half years or something
like that. How did it end imicably? It did just
sort of who and in the fifty decade, five decades
fifty years since then, have any contact or never seen her?
I haven't seen her in decades. Okay, So how do

(46:52):
you end up writing songs with the Allan system? Well
it started on the silver album. I had this song
you know, it doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't matter. And uh,
I mean Sandy was around. You know when we say
Sandy is Sarah? You know? And uh, uh she was

(47:14):
around just as we're there is her birthday? Sandy or Sarah?
And how did one day come? The name is Sarah
Allen and and she everybody calls her Sandy that knows
her any reason, any reason? Why do we know she's
been Sandy is says she was a kid. Okay, so

(47:35):
you're sitting around continue there, So anyway, I'll use Sandy
now because I know that everybody knows who Sarah is.
And uh, and she used to just sit around and
well she'd be there, you know, in the house we
were I've right in the living room, you know, and uh,
she started contributing things, and she's in that song. You know,

(47:55):
it doesn't matter anymore. She contributed to the song, and
I went, oh, okay, well, she actually has something interesting
to say here. And in those days she didn't. It
was it was not anything official, and she didn't really
write with me very much in those days. I can't
remember when she actually started really collaborating or co writing

(48:19):
or throwing lyrics out. I can't remember which song would
have been the first one other than that one. Uh.
But in the in the late around and well, all
those eighties songs is when it really came into fruition
and she was really in the middle of all that
and and really contributing a lot. Uh. And as far

(48:42):
as Joanna goes, Janice the first, the first song I
ever wrote with Janna. She was that at that time,
she was living where the parents had no no with
the parents. She was living in l A. And Uh.
She had the idea of a song called kiss on
my list, and it was a first song I ever
wrote with her. She's twenty and and I sat down

(49:04):
whether to a world or her piano she had in
her little living room, and I started playing those chords
and and and she started. You know, we we literally
wrote the song together. And I wrote it because she
says she wanted to be an artist, and I said, well,
let's write a song for you. And I did that song,
and I went back to New York and made it.

(49:27):
I did a four track demo of it, and that's
what you hear. That's the four track demo. Yeah, oh
really kissing. Okay, let's go. Let's go back to the
silver album. So Sarah Smile as a hit, and in
the wake of that, She's Gone is released and as
a hit too. What was your experience? Sarah Smile had

(49:52):
an amazing and and somehow appropriate beginning. We were we
had released that was the third third single that that
r c A released on on the Silver album, and
we were in Germany. We were in Germany touring and

(50:14):
somebody said, in Ohio on the on the black stations
in Ohio, suddenly they're planning Sarah Smile. I think it
was it started in Dayton or Acron or somewhere like that,
I can't remember. And Uh, it suddenly started spreading all
over into all the black stations, and we had it.

(50:37):
We had a hit on R and B radio. Uh
and it was like, whoa, this is happening, and it
really was word of mouth. It was one of those
things that spread like wildfire. And then then uh, then
pop radio what I call white radio star at that time,

(50:57):
started playing it and it became this giant year. And
but it all started in the black community. I mean, uh,
Sarah Smile was was generated from that world, which again
I find to be appropriate to the song and to
my career in life. So that's successful. She's gone as successful.

(51:18):
How does that change your confidence and outlook? Well, I
figured we had some figure, we had some ability to
to stick around for a while. I mean, I didn't
have any master plan, but I thought, okay, well it's working.
Something's working. Now we can go out and tour. You know,
now we can play we have songs to play for

(51:40):
people that they want to hear. And it was, um,
it was the beginning, you know, it was the beginning.
It validated what I was doing, and that's encouraging. Validation
is really an important thing because it makes you more
confident what you're doing. Okay, so that record, how does
the bigger than both of the album come together? That

(52:02):
was another Cris Bond record and we did it, and
we decided, well, he was living in California and we
decided to go out there and do it. Uh and
it was uh yeah, that's what I'm That's all I
could say. It was a California record, and the musicians,
the sidemen that we're on it were a lot of
the l A players. Okay, so how did your right,

(52:26):
rich girl? Okay, let's we'll backtrack a little bit and
I'm back at street. UM in my apartment, same keyboard,
I wrote Sarah smile on UM. Sandy had a old
boyfriend came over from uh Ohio and uh he was

(52:50):
you know, this was a mid seventies, early seventies. Everybody
was high as motherfucker, you know, and he was Let's see,
I think it's I think his father had a fast
food chain or something like that. I'm not even I'm
a little vague on all that. But anyway, he in

(53:11):
my in my perception, he was a rich He was
a rich guy. You know, he came from a rich
he came from a rich family. And uh so he
he left and uh, he was acting kind of strange.
I mean, he was a good guy, but I it
gave me, gave me the inspiration, and I sat down
as he left. I went, he's a rich guy and

(53:32):
he's gone too far because he knows it. Don't bad
it anyway, And I wrote it about rich guy and
then I U I said, no, that doesn't sound right.
I can't write a song called rich Guy, So I
changed the Rich Girl. Did you know as you were
writing it how successful it would be? Uh? No, no,

(53:55):
definitely not. So you cut it in l A. You
got a finished version. You still have no idea how
successful would be. I think it's the rare person and
in my entire career, and I've had a lot of
sucking success, you know, commercially, I never was sure. Everything

(54:15):
is a surprise. Everything is surprised. Sometimes songs that I
thought we're gonna be hits were zero, and sometimes I
thought songs okay, whatever, but became it. It's you never know, man,
you can't tell. And a lot of that has to
do with things that are out of my control, has
to do with the fucking Paola and you know, record
business in a level ship, Okay. I vividly remember hearing

(54:40):
Rich Girl the first time and having to go by
the album, which was great. Needles to say that becomes
an iconic hit. How does life change for you? Uh,
it didn't really change. It was just more the same. Uh,
you cant understand something. Two. Tommy Montola was a very

(55:03):
controlling human being. I think anybody that knows anything about
Tommy Montola's history, he liked to keep things under his control.
He didn't like things to get out of control. He
didn't like things to get too high or too low. Uh.
And you were sort of in a bubble, uh, asked

(55:23):
Mariah Carey. Uh, you were in a bubble if you
were controlled by Tommy Montola. And Uh, it wasn't conducive
to highs and you know, major major highs or realizing
where you were what you were doing. All I knew
that I was a road musician. I was out playing

(55:45):
on the road and then I was in the studio
writing songs. At what point, if any, did you start
to see some money about five years ago? Really? What
changed five years ago? Which what change was? I got it.

(56:07):
I got the right manager for the first time in
my life. And Jonathan Wilson, he was a PR guy
and now he's your manager. How did that come together? Well?
He was PR guy, and I realized that we had
a rap war and and and an understanding of each other.
And he had an instinct an instinct, and I ran

(56:28):
with it and UH made it, made a major decision
in my life and John's life, and uh and and
never looked back. And I've never been felt more justified
in doing it. And what is John done differently from
the people before? Let me let my instincts drive the bus. Okay,

(56:57):
so you have this major success, Just one thing, one
ly come there which always sticks out for me? Earth
shoes Chicago Blues. Was that yours? Or was that John's? No,
it's mine? So what I mean earth shoes for a
big deal that. Remember, you know a lot of people
write songs. They don't like to put specific names. And
you remember where that came from, if at all, it's

(57:18):
a long time ago specific names to what you put
earth shoes in the song? Oh earth shoes? Well, I
couldn't think of I was thinking of all the different things,
uh that that you could uh, all the opposites that
you could think of it. It didn't matter, because you
just have to follow your instincts. Do what you want,

(57:39):
be what you are. You know, do you believe in
hot cars, leather bars? And movie stars. Do you believe
in earth shoes? Chicago Blues? What do you know? It's
it's yeah, like that. I wrote that song. By the way,
John didn't read that song. Okay, if the credits are
such that, I didn't want to make an assumption. Okay,
you're incredibly hot, then you get cold. Do you feel

(58:02):
that you're getting cold and nothing seems to be working? No,
I don't. I felt that first of all, the late
seventies were a bizarre time. They were a bizarre time
societally and a bizarre time musically. And I was caught
in the crossfire. Uh I was. I look at that

(58:23):
as as as as au opened up an opportunity to me,
and uh I uh that's when I that's when I
started working with Robert Fripp and uh and and did
those albums that I did with with him, and and
started being more involved with in that world. And uh

(58:44):
that opened my whole, that whole that expanded my life
to be quite a degree and allowed and allowed me
to get to the next stage. It was a transitional period.
How did you meet Fripp and what you learned from Frip?

(59:05):
I learned that you could have douce that my my
sense of uh spontaneity and and and and and let
anything's happen uh uh quickly and on the spot. And
I that there are there were people that could roll

(59:26):
with that and and and and and expand upon it,
and you could have that kind of interaction creatively. Uh.
Robert is like that. We we we created that ship
out of nowhere. I mean, I I just came up.
He would just play a guitar riff, and I would
start seeing whatever came into my mind. And uh and
a lot of those songs are like that. I mean
some songs are more structured than that, but a lot

(59:48):
of it did come that way. And uh we my
the Sacred Songs album happened. We made that album in
about six weeks start to finish, and u uh and
and the Exposure album, which I did the whole album
when you know, saying all that wrote wrote us, saying
almost all the songs. Um that that didn't take much longer.

(01:00:11):
I'm thinking about it. Um. But it's that sense of
spontaneity that I and and and and freedom, freedom and
joy and all those things. That's that's what I got
from working with Robert. Okay, how did you end up
working with David Foster was that your choice are foisted
upon you. It was sort of foisted David that we

(01:00:36):
were his second project. He was again, he was a kid.
He was twenty two. Uh, and he had I forget
who he had done first, was an earth Wind of Fire.
Maybe it was earth Word Fire, which is a hell
of the beginning. Uh, or maybe it was the Sons
of Champlain. I don't know whatever I'm battling. Um I

(01:00:57):
I wouldn't call it foisted because he was suggested and uh,
I thought that he was interesting and I met him
and and and he had a very strong personality as
you can imagine, and uh he was he had very
strong opinions musically. But yeah, he was a kid, so

(01:01:20):
he was unformed. And uh we uh we. We went
to California and we made a couple of records. Okay,
as I say, these records are not really big successes,
like bigger than both of us. And the next thing
I know, you're playing clubs and you put out a
live album. I certainly went to the rocks you to

(01:01:40):
see you from the inside. There's no understanding that, wow,
this is going in the wrong direction. We need a hit.
I don't know if it was that we ever said
it's going in the wrong direction, But I think that
the idea that we needed to hit, especially in the
early eighties or ninety or whatever, was certainly on, you know,
in our minds. Uh uh. If it wasn't my mind,

(01:02:04):
it was, it was certainly in Matola's mind. Uh And uh, yeah,
like that, I mean, but then I don't know. I
wrote a bunch of songs, then they became his. Okay,
So how do you end up producing yourself? And whose
idea is it to cover you've lost that love and feeling.

(01:02:24):
I thought that the key, I thought that the key
to some kind of success was for me to produce
the well I go, I have to include John in this,
for me and John to produce the album ourselves, because
I just felt that nobody really understood what we were
doing other than ourselves. And uh that came especially after

(01:02:46):
working with David, who is a very talented guy. We
all knew that, and but he had his own opinions
and and he didn't necessarily see music the same way
as I did. Uh. So that was that was the
important step, is producing ourselves. And uh uh And as
far as who you also love feel we had we

(01:03:06):
had done the whole album and we felt that we
needed something else to a round out the album. And
I happened to be in the Mud Club in New York.
That was one of those days when everybody went to
mud club and uh and and they played in the
room they were playing you lost that love of feeling,
and I thought to myself, that's an interesting thing, you

(01:03:27):
know what to duo. Maybe we should just like sing
do a modern version of that song. Uh. And that's
and we the next we were in the Electric Ladies
studios and I think it was like the next day.
We went in there and we cut it. And we
cut that song in about three hours and U there
it is, so tell me the story if you make

(01:03:48):
my dreams. Uh, well, there's not a whole lot of
story other than I was sitting in my apartment in
h in the village and uh and I I came
up with that. I had a my working instrument of
those days was a c a Yamaha CEP thirty and

(01:04:10):
I mentioned that because of the distinct sound of it,
and it's that honky kind of strange, unique sound. And
I just started playing that riff at where I didn't,
you know, and uh, I started singing something over it,
and uh uh there was you know, I and I

(01:04:32):
you make my dreams. And I thought to myself that
that's that's lame. You make my dreams come true. And
and I realized that I tried to think around it
and outthink myself, and I want to no that, let's
just stick with the original thought. It's it's it's directed.
It is what it is. You make my dreams come true.

(01:04:54):
And then I beside I was going to offset that
with a slightly more flower flower um h verse lyric.
And if you listen to those lyrics, there a lot
more high blown than you make my dreams come true? Right, So,
now you have unbelievable success with this album. You have

(01:05:14):
three hits. That's gotta feel good. And what do you
think about going into the next record. We were really
in a whirlwind at that point. We were we were
on the road, we were experiencing immediate success. We were
all over the world. Uh we were. If we weren't

(01:05:37):
all over the world, we were in the studio making
the next record. It was a very active time and
with not a whole lot of time to reflect or
understand what was going on around us? Uh? The old,
the old cliche I of the hurricane. Uh was pretty
much the way to describe. Okay, I can't go for that,

(01:06:00):
Oh can do. What's the story there? I we were
doing the privatized album right yeah, and and uh I was.
It was sort of after hours and I I had
this cord crappy little organ and uh and I started

(01:06:20):
I turned on and I had and I had a
thing called the rolling COMPUVERYTHM, which is the most rudimentary
drum machine that ever was built. And uh, I pressed
rock and roll one boom Dick Dick boom, you know
that beat, and I started playing boom but at on

(01:06:41):
on the organ and uh and then I started playing
in the right hand in it, and uh, I said,
wait a minute, I think I have something here, and
uh I I I John was packing. He was He
was still there and he was packing his guitar. I said,
you know, John, come in plug it, just play play

(01:07:03):
exactly what I say to you. Play bump bump up
bump bomb right here. He was right there, Okay, bompopo
bomb and he played exactly what I dictated to him.
And I had a track that was it. That was
the track. And then I went in the in the room,
in the vote, in the in the control room, and
said give me a microphone and I started saying, Hey,

(01:07:25):
that right, and I started doing that and that was
That is literally how the song was created. And then
how did the ultimate lyrics come together through my frustration? Okay,
so in the midst of all this, MTV launches and

(01:07:46):
you make videos. This is in the rudimentary era of
videos at first private eyes, etcetera. But also suddenly which
we learn, MTV makes people bigger than ever. So what
was your experience with m DV like it not like
and then you end up having a long career there. Well,
I had a love hate relationship with it. I I

(01:08:10):
was there, as you said, I was there from the
the beginning, like the first bloody day, and uh, nobody
really knew what they had and they didn't really know
what they were doing that they didn't have they had
no scripting, the VJs. Uh, they would just give Marth
Quinn or you know who, you know, you name it

(01:08:33):
two hours, just go here's here's play this. When that's
a bat Pat Benatar, play this would played that you
know and you and just talk, and I have to
hand it to these well, they were like radio DJs.
They would just talk and uh, very early on they
asked me to do it, and both both on my
own and with John uh to to be VJs and

(01:08:55):
we would just do anything just to pass the time.
I mean, I remember one time I had t bone
on their cooking cooking eggs or something in between songs.
I mean, it was it was all kinds of It
was anything goes. It really was anything goes, and that
was great. It was like the early days of television
when you hear about Sid Caesar and you know, and uh,

(01:09:17):
you know those days. It reminds me a lot of that.
It was nobody really had any rules. So they didn't
because it was a brand new thing. So uh, it
was a really heady time, really a really fun time.
But then you had to deal with the videos and
the videos where you know, these extravaganza is generally done
by cokeheads that did commercials, you know, uh, and and

(01:09:41):
they were all always overblown and they were always ridiculous
and they always had nothing to do with the song.
And that was the part it didn't like. So there
it is okay, but now everybody over the all over
the world. Not only knows your songs, they know what
you look like. And you could you feel that change
anywhere you when people knew who you were? And was that,

(01:10:02):
you know, inhibiting or it was it wasn't was it inhibiting?
You know? I mean I had already experienced that to
some degree, but it actually my my big commercial success
came simultaneously with that. So I can't differentiate. I don't know.
All I know is that I was you know, yeah,
it was Darryl Romania. I mean people, which you know

(01:10:23):
I was. I couldn't go to Christmas shopping or do anything.
I mean I I was chased down the streets and
you know it was like the Beatles, you know that
that's bullshit, you know it was. It was that that
kind of stuff, screaming girls and uh uh it was.
It was weird. I got to say it was weird.

(01:10:44):
So you have a long run of success album after
album with hits. Did you just feel you would come
up with hits or do you go into the studio
and you say you start your project, Man, I gotta
I gotta equal I gotta have something like that on
the album. No, I have never in my I thought
that way, because that is the death of anything, death
of creativity. I at the back of my mind, I

(01:11:08):
always tried to do my best, and I realized what
what I what I was doing. But I wasn't writing
songs with the idea they were gonna be hints. I
write the best song I can think of to express
the emotion that's going on in my head in my heart. Uh.
And that's that's that doesn't get any farther than that, really,

(01:11:29):
I mean, that's that's how the songs get written. So
at the peak of your success you end up going
to air a staff. How does that come together? Oh? Again,
that was the machinations of Tommy. Uh I I didn't
care where I was one of the truth and and

(01:11:53):
you know again more than I have to say, and
being insulated and isolated. Uh h and uh, I guess
I don't know. Clide Clide, Jesus Clive not client. Uh.
Clive Davids said he wanted us badly. I don't know,

(01:12:15):
you know he and and he he basically gave us
a pitch to go there. And I guess it worked.
Worked for Alan Grubbin and Tommy Mattola and nothing to
do with me. Clive has a great, great, a big
reputation for meddling with the music. Did he meddle with

(01:12:36):
your music? Yes? He tried it? Did it didn't? My
My experience with with Clive didn't really turn out very well. Uh,
because I I don't like being told what to do
by anybody. And I mean, I don't want to put

(01:12:58):
Clive down, you know, but yes, he was a middler,
and he and just what he thinks. His instincts are
not necessarily what's best for the artist. And uh, you
know I had I had one memorable meeting where I
walked out of the basically walked out of the meeting
when he tried to get me to sing a song
called I've Got a New Blue Suit. So you know,

(01:13:25):
it's a bad experience all around. Clive is middling and
you have no hits. What's going through your brain? What's next?
I don't know. Uh, I can't even remember what was
going on. Then, you know what I I don't know.
I was I was starting to think about making some
solo records, and uh and and and moving into that

(01:13:46):
direction for a while. And uh, I've always spent a
lot of time in England, especially in London, and I
decided I had a house at that time. I well,
I had boadhouse, and I decided to move to England.
So I moved to England and made a couple of

(01:14:06):
records basically out of there. And uh, I'm very proud
of it. That's what I'm promoting right now. That's I'm
I'm promoting the uh excerpts from the from those albums.
And uh, I looked at that as it was. That
was that was a lot of fun. The early nineties
were great. Okay, so things keep moving on MTV changes,

(01:14:30):
it becomes hip hop, you know, grunge, etcetera. Very slick videos.
You make those albums when you come up for air.
What does the world look like to you? Uh? It
was it when I came up for air out of
my good time in London, it started going like, Okay,
now I gotta figure out what I'm really gonna do.

(01:14:52):
And uh, I I will say that the second half
of the nineties, I was I was looking for direction,
I was looking for something. I was looking for whatever
U Matola had left. I mean that was that. We
go back to that in that nine is when we
parted company, just to be very specific. He ended up

(01:15:14):
going from the management side to the label. Is that
what rupture the relationship ors is something totally separate. It
was a little a combination of both. He he he
left me for Mariah and uh and I say it
that way because that's what it was like. And uh
and uh and then at the same time he managed
to Uh, well, there's book has been written about it

(01:15:37):
that he got into managed to get into the position
of the head of it, of the sony and uh.
Uh so we didn't really have That's when our relationship
changed completely. And uh uh uh and I moved on
and I and I went up with with somebody who
used to work in the mental organization, and and and

(01:16:00):
he was also my tour manager and he started managing
me for quite a while until until Jonathan came on
the scene. Okay, so prior to Mariah coming on the scene,
and based on what you just said, can we say
that you were number one in Tommy's book, that you

(01:16:20):
trumped everything and he was thinking about you, etcetera. Oh,
without a doubt, without even in shadow of a doubt.
I mean he had other artists, uh, and I feel
bad for those other artists. If you want the truth.
I mean one of my somebody who I think is
one of the great overlooked artists as August Arnell with
Kid Creole in the Coconuts. He was he was managing August,

(01:16:43):
but he christ he you know, he had had a
clue what to do. It lost. Yeah, And and even
though Aggy had great success in Europe outside the United States,
Tommy didn't know what to do with him. He was busy,
busy with me basically, and you part ways. Is that

(01:17:03):
the end of the relationship or do you have any
contact with him thereafter? Through today? Not through today so much? Uh?
We we we were in contact for many many years
after all that. Uh now nowadays we're not really so

(01:17:23):
much in contact. So you come back to the States,
it's the nineties, you're looking for direction. Pick up from there.
I'm thinking I did. I did my solo albums, two
solo albums. I did an album called Marigold Sky with John.
Decided to try a record with John, and then uh

(01:17:46):
then I'm did oh I did to do It for
Love album which with with John that was in England.
Uh and uh then we did other things. We we
did We did a Christmas album and I mean, you know,
this all kind of runs together. Uh, it was just
kind of random. I don't know. We we we didn't

(01:18:08):
really have a focus direction either as Hall and Oates
or as solo artists. It was sort of in between.
It was the beginning of that is the beginning of
of us going in two different directions and uh uh,
but but still doing the occasional project and doing and
and uh and playing live. That was when we sort

(01:18:29):
of became a live band for real and started playing everywhere.
And was that driven by a need to be on
stage or a need for money? Both? You gotta make money.
You gotta you have to support a band, and you
have to support yourself. Uh. You know, I'm like anybody

(01:18:51):
you have a job, and uh uh as far as
need to do, I do. I need it. I I've
been doing in my whole life. So I don't know
if you call that a need or not. But I
do live to perform. I love to perform. I'm I'm
a performing animal. Okay. At what point in this story

(01:19:21):
do you get into construction projects? Ah, that's that's a
parallel story. I've been doing that forever. I grew up
in a in a in a strange family of there
were either musicians and or people who worked in Like
my grandfather was a stonemason and brick layer. When I

(01:19:46):
say brick layer, he wasn't. He built houses, He built chimneys.
He was, he was. He was a specialist. And uh,
I used to live on construction sites. My father built
the house that I grew up in. Um. I I've
always been around people who work with their hands, and

(01:20:07):
carpenters and and and and and and specialists. And I
grew up in Chester County, which is uh, you know,
and in the midst of the eighteenth century basically, uh,
that's you know. My family houses are those kind of houses,
you know, antique structures, and uh, I've always had a

(01:20:27):
love of history. And let me thank the first. The
first house I renovated was that one I told you
about that I would pay eighty five dollars a month
for it was a late eighteenth century house row house
in Philadelphia that was completely destroyed. And I went in
there and started renovating and painting and doing everything and
fix that house up to live in. And then the

(01:20:50):
second one. I've done so many houses, it's just over
the years, uh uh I've done many many historic houses,
and I really like doing it. I know how to
organize it, I know how to I understand the history
of it. I understand how things, how things work. I
understand construction. I understand all those things, and I really

(01:21:13):
enjoy it. It's sort of an avocation. The house that
I'm doing this in right now is the house that
I completely renovated from scratch, Hies House. Okay, so they're
always existing houses. You never want to build from scratch.
Oh No. The house that I did the Life of
Darrell's House show, and I did, I took two houses

(01:21:37):
down in in uh in uh, near Hartford, Connecticut, and
moved them to Dutchess County, New York, uh from the
and and then and built them from below the foundation up.
So I reconstructed those houses out of uh, you know,
out of the original materials. Okay, it's let's just say,

(01:22:02):
this is what you like to do. Are you always
looking for a project? How do you find the house? Well?
I'm always sort of in a projects. I don't think
there's been much time that I haven't been under construction
or in a situation where this construction going on under
my under my direction. But as I say, what do

(01:22:25):
you decide? How do you find the projects to work on? Well,
a lot of in in well just about all the
cases I was there were houses that I want up
living in for at least a while. Okay, so you
say you really know how to do it. Let's say
we find a classic house seventeen hundreds eighteen hundreds in

(01:22:45):
need to repair. Walk me through the steps of bringing
it up to your standards. Well, it depends what it needs.
I mean, let's let's talk about the worst case scenario.
What what might that be? That might be something that
needs foundational work, needs detail work. Uh need you know

(01:23:07):
to what degree can you do with your friends? To
what degree you need to outside contract stuff like? Okay? Sure? Uh, well,
I mean you need specialists because that's the whole thing.
That's one of the things I like about it is
that that all these people are artisans and they do things.
I like to do things in a in a way
that we're done originally. I don't like to bring things

(01:23:28):
in unless I have to, uh that are that are
that are modern additions to it? For example, this house
and I'm in I had foundational issues the wall over
by the not this room, and then the other side
of the house was starting to cave in around where
the chimney stack is and I had to shore that up.

(01:23:50):
I had to use I beams and I had uh
re restructure the wall to uh to shore up the foundation.
Uh some I had had columns. I had to uh
you know that weren't there before. Um, Well, there you go.
That's that's how you fix it. You're need to say,

(01:24:12):
you're a working musician. To what degree are you supervising
all this? Well, it depends on the project. I was
very much supervising the Flinthill project because it was I
was there as to do with proximity this house. It's
been taken me forever to do. It started when I
had the TV show and I was that's when this

(01:24:33):
this house that I'm sitting and started that project and
I'm now just finishing it because I've been working so
much that I couldn't be around physically, and so it's
taken years to uh uh to to bring to completion. Um.
But I find that you have to use good g C.
You have to have a sympathetic GC, somebody who really

(01:24:55):
understands antique architecture. And I have an architect who is
my friend as well as uh she's an amazing uh uh.
She has an amazing ability to work with an antique
projects and uh and I trust her. I trust her.
She doesn't she does the heavy lifting literally uh and

(01:25:18):
uh you know does does the drawings and all that.
But but you know, it's it's all about my decision making.
Anybody's involved with construction know that it's done by individuals
and it's never perfect. To what degree have this Has
this been your experience and to what degree do you
let things go? To what degree do you make them

(01:25:38):
do it over? Now? Well, towards the end of one
era of this project that I'm in, uh, I had
a GC walk off the job. He was a jerk.
He basically I I turned him onto some people and
instead of any any any left me for those people.

(01:26:02):
And you know, that's one of those kind of and
so I was stuck. I was stuck without a g C.
I was stuck with that and uh uh and I
was in the middle of it was a very difficult
at the time. I was not getting along with my
with my wife and and uh, I don't want to
get into that, but uh, I had to hire an

(01:26:23):
architect and I hired a g C from the area
that I really wasn't that familiar with, and uh and
in a construction company to to sort of keep the
project going. And they acted like they knew what they
were doing, but they didn't know what they were doing.
And then I wound up having to go on the
road to pay for all this and uh uh. Anyway,

(01:26:46):
long story short, that's when they started doing funked up
things and I came back and said, what is this?
And I did make them rip things out. I'm still
in the process of some of the things of undoing
some of them at work. So that happens, so you
enjoy it. But when the process is done and you

(01:27:08):
sell it, are you in the black or the red? Uh?
Depends depends on the time. Uh depends on the real
estate time. Right now, I would be in the right now,
I would be in the in the black because it's
a good time for real estate. But if I like
the Flynn Hill project, it was sort of a financial

(01:27:31):
disaster because I was doing it all. It was my
my major one, my my big work, right and uh,
magnus opus and and and uh and I completed it.
When right when the real estate when when everything fell

(01:27:54):
to pieces when when nothing was worth anything. So that
wasn't such a great result, but but the project itself
was was amazing. So how many houses you own right now? Oh? Well,
I this one that I didn't. I have a studio

(01:28:16):
house that's about a couple of miles away, and I
have a family house in London. Okay, So tell me
about the genesis of life from Darrell's house. I just
had And it was an idea, a simple, simple idea
that I could bring the world into my into me

(01:28:41):
as opposed to me going to the world. And at
the time, the Internet wasn't being used for entertainment in
any way. It was being used for communication and information,
uh and things like that and commercialization. But nobody even

(01:29:02):
really had anything that resembled an entertainment show, at least
nothing important, especially not a music show. So I decided
I was going to do a music show, and I
got somebody to fund it, which is super important changed
my life, and uh, we started doing it. We just
did it. It was it was all very real, and uh,

(01:29:24):
I said, you know, no audience, Let's just get it
in a room and with people and show show the
world what it's like to be in the inter sanctum
of of you know, musical creativity and interaction and uh.
And one of my first guests with Smokey Robinson, I

(01:29:46):
called in my cards, you know, I called in my
I was just on the phone with people, and Smokey
unbelievably came up to Duchess County, you know, which is
not that closed anywhere, and U he came up and
it was amazing, and uh, that was one of the
first shows. But and it just went from there and

(01:30:07):
people really responded to it, and I'm so happy. It
made me so happy. It's it's the happiest I've ever
been is doing is doing these these shows and that
in that series. It fulfilled me. It defined me really,
It's it shows people what I do, what I'm like,
what I'm like as a person, what I and what

(01:30:27):
I do in life, what I'm good at. And uh, yeah,
so I got some new shows coming. Okay, that's giving
my next question. So you know you put them out
of the web series. As you say, the buzz was
unbelievable and you were way ahead of everybody else. Then
ultimately you've gotta deal for television. So what's the status

(01:30:47):
of it now? Well, you know, everything changes now I don't.
I have I have regained the funding, and so that's
an important part. This is not an easy show to
do financially. And uh uh. But having said that, how
to put it out I'm not sure because everything changes,

(01:31:10):
I mean, how do I want to put it out now?
I mean I've been toying with the idea of of
just going on YouTube and putting it out that way,
you know, because YouTube is now a channel, a channel
into itself. Uh, maybe do a combination of I don't know.
I haven't found I don't know where it's spot is

(01:31:31):
going to be, but it's going to be somewhere obviously.
But but the thing is that it is international show
and whatever I do will be I want to do
something that makes it easier for everybody around the world
to watch it. So I may use regular terrestrial television,
I might use some streaming service. I might use YouTube

(01:31:53):
I don't. I don't know yet, or a combination thereof.
So how many shows you plan to do? But to
start with six? Next one season and then um, let's see, now,
how expensive is it to do a show? Well, it
costs money, but it's not the production. The production is

(01:32:13):
relatively well, you know, it's a little bit of money,
but it's the clearances and all that stuff. You know,
there's a lot of money. You have to pay a
lot of people, you know, you know, artists and publishers,
and you know, there's a lot a lot involved in it,
a lot of legal things and a lot of machinations.
And it was hard to get going in the beginning
because there was a lot of people who didn't understand

(01:32:34):
what I was doing, and they thought that I was
trying you know, they were some people thought that I
was like Napster Jr. You know, back in those days,
that I was trying to steal from the artist, not
enhance the artists career. So I had a lot of
of of resistance to getting this stuff started. But I

(01:32:55):
will say that my manager and me figuring it out
how to do it and at this late day, because
you've done so many At first you call in your cards,
how do you select guests? Now? Well, I still call
in cards. Um. I have some feelers out right now
that that are interesting ones. Um. But a lot of

(01:33:19):
it comes down to scheduling. Most artists have lives and
they work and then they're on the road and they're
not in this necessarily in anywhere near upstate New York,
you know. So there's a lot of that that that
that that's actually one of the biggest factors in trying
to get people to figure out how they're going to

(01:33:39):
actually be able to do the show. Most people say, yes,
that's the funny thing, not funny and it's the happy thing. Uh.
People say yes, you man, I love that show. I
watch it all the time. And I said, Okay, when
can you do it? Well, you know, I'm doing a
tour that maybe next year, you know that kind of thing.
So will it be done in the same space, with

(01:34:00):
same format, with cooking, etcetera. I think, so, I'm going
to incorporate this house, which is different than the old house,
and I do it in my club, So I think
I'm probably going to do the music in the club
and the food and conversation and dinner here in this house,

(01:34:21):
which is only a couple of miles away. Now, people
always talk about owning a club and owning a bar,
but it is a business and it's an incredible headache.
So how did you decide to own the club and
how much of your in putting hands on attention, does
it need? Well, Luckily I have a partner and he

(01:34:43):
has another club. He has a club in the West Coast,
and uh so he's and his his his club is
a version of the kind of club that I have,
and so he understands that it started with a lot
of his bringing his his cook in and things like that.
So I had a lot of help in getting it going.

(01:35:05):
I make the creative decisions. I have a lot to
do with the food. Uh I. Uh, you know, we
figured out as far as the booking goes and things
like that. Um, and I leave the actual nuts and
bolts financing and and those those that area to my partner,

(01:35:28):
who uh, like I said, has plenty of experience in this. Uh.
I will say that we managed to somehow survive the pandemic,
which was really not easy. So prior to the pandemic,
is this just a labor of love or can you
make any money? Well, it's it's it's sort of a

(01:35:51):
it's a generator, you know, it's it's it's it's I
have people from all of the world come and play there,
and people from all the world actually come there, So
it's become a it's become a physical shrine to whatever
is the Darrel's House kind of thing and uh uh
and it's it is a labor of love. I love clubs.

(01:36:13):
I love the idea of clubs. Clubs are where all
the good stuff happens, uh, the best music and U
I uh. And it's also the place that that I
do my show out of. You know, it's it's it's
it's a home for me. It's the home home of
the show. Uh. So it's uh, you know, it provides

(01:36:34):
a lot of it. There's a lot of the generates
out of it. Okay, just to be clear, where the
original episodes were shot from live from Darrel's House. That
is not the club. That's the house you used to own, right, Yeah,
that's the that's the Flint Hill house that I created
from scratch and you ultimately sold that when in in

(01:36:59):
in about twenty you know, I don't know, I'll say something.
We're in that area, maybe I don't know. Okay, needless
to say, we're all getting older by the minute, and
no one gets out of here alive. You know, do
you feel that at all that you know there's a

(01:37:19):
limited time left and you want to accomplish or you
just want to ride. What what's your perspective on aging
and you know the grim Reaper. Well, my perspective is
that at this time of life, it is time to
not pull punches. Do whatever it is that makes that

(01:37:41):
fulfills for me. I'll say me do whatever it takes
to fulfill myself. What I do it, now, do it,
don't funk around. You want to do something, go do
it if you can do it, uh because right that
much of a future come on, you know. I mean,
I'm gonna do it until I can't do it. And uh,

(01:38:04):
I have a I'm very lucky that I have a
pretty good jeans. My mother's ninety eight and my father
was ninety six when he died, and that wasn't his fault.
Uh So, Um, I think I have some time left,
you know, and and but I'm gonna do my best
to take advantage of that time. That's what else gotta say.

(01:38:28):
Needless to say, you started a long time ago when
music really drove the culture. He had a hit, everybody
in the world knew it. Today, we live in a
very broad culture where a number one hit reaches fewer
people than ever before. In addition, there scenes that don't
seem to stream that well, but do incredible live business.

(01:38:48):
Do you keep up on hit music or you just
say I'm doing what I'm doing. That's just something different. Um,
I don't keep up with anything. I don't try to.
I use I I listen to music randomly. I'm not
a great audience, although I'm a very heartfelt audience. What
I like something. I'm really a lucky person because that

(01:39:11):
what you talked about, I experienced. I had a hit.
The whole world knew about it. It was that I
I benefited from that. I I made my bones on
that and and I used that for what I do now,
which is very tribal. And I I can relate to
tribalism very well. I mean, I like having my people

(01:39:34):
and and playing to the people that give a shit
about me. And uh that's yeah, I mean it. It's
worked out very well in my favor. I think, I
feel okay. We both came of age in the sixties.
Fifties were sort of somnambulance. Sixties come along, you know,
the boomers take over. There's a war of the generations,

(01:39:56):
the Vietnam War. Needless say, it's radically different. What do
you think about today's environment? Well, we live in a dysfunctional,
crashing and burning world. It's that's a whole other podcast

(01:40:17):
if you want the truth. I mean, I don't even
know what to say. I'm I'm I'm a I see
this horrible, horrible disparity between mindsets and uh, that's that's uncrossable.

(01:40:37):
And I don't see things getting better. I'm a historian,
maybe an amateurist story, but I'm an a storian. And
uh and and I we were I see parallels. Man,
We're headed to the dark ages. Good luck. Well, we've
believed in the sixties that use could save the world.

(01:41:01):
Does music have a role or have times changed or
it never had that power? I think that there was.
There was a time where music actually did have a
lot of power. It really did. Uh, Beatles come to mind,
you know, I mean you know, I mean it was

(01:41:22):
it was changing things. It was, it was, it was,
it was. It drove a social movement, I think in
in in the late sixties. Uh. Now, does music have
any thing, any power? No, but it can't because of
what you said before, Because you can't have a hit
and everybody in the world hears it. So you have

(01:41:42):
your tribe and that's it. You know, it's it's it's
never going to have that kind of ability to move people.
It can't possibly. And what about legacy? Do you care
if you're remembered? You care if your songs last? Uh? Well,
I'll take the John Lennon thing and says who gives
a ship after him dead? You know, I mean, do

(01:42:08):
I care? No? I caring is a funny word. Uh.
I mean, I'm proud of what I've done, and uh
that's that's all I can say about it. You know,
I mean people could once it leaves me, it belongs
to the world. I think that's a perfect note to
end on. Darryl. I want to thank you for taking

(01:42:31):
the times, very insightful, great to learn things I didn't know.
Thanks again, sure man, we could do it until next time.
This is Bob left Sex