Pat Simmons

Pat Simmons is the only person who has been in every iteration of the Doobie Brothers. We talk about motorcycles, playing live before the Doobies, hooking up with Tom Johnston, New Orleans...there's a lot of history here!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set Pod. Next,
my guest today was Pat Simmons of the Doobie Bills. Pat,
it's a thrill to talk to you. I thank you,
Bob appreciated your ticket the time with me. So you
and Tom have a new book about the Doobie Brothers
Long Tream Running. How did that come to be? Let's see, Well,
you know, I always thought I would write a book

(00:29):
about the band, and then I you know, I kind
of started doing stuff for years ago and never really happened.
And then I thought, you know, it's probably never gonna happen,
and I was doing let's see, I I was, I was.
This is a little convoluted here, but I was on
a at a motorcycle event. It was something called the

(00:56):
Cannonball Uh antique motorcycle and Earns run and my wife
and I have done it quite a few times, and
it's a motorcycle ride across country on antique motorcycles. I've
been into old bikes forever and so we were on

(01:17):
our old bikes. I had my nineteen fourteen Hourly to
Speed and she was on her nineteen twin and we
had made it. Oh gosh, kind of a cross country.
I think my bike had blown up by that time,
but she was still riding her bike. And we we

(01:38):
had scheduled to do an interview with a guy from
the Huffington Post and his name is Crips Chris Epting,
and he wanted to do an article about the ride
and about our participation, and it came through, you know,
the the band's publicist at the time, and so he

(02:02):
showed up. We were sometime somewhere down out in the
Palm Desert, somewhere. We had made it that far, and
uh so, Chris showed up and he took some pictures
and started talking with us, and we did this interview
and it came out in the Huffington Post and it
was just a really nice little article about the ride

(02:24):
and my wife and I ended up being more about
my wife than me. So uh So, then we played
in San Diego, probably I don't know, a week later.
I went right back on the road from this ride,
ridden across country and then boom, I'm back on tour
with the band and we're in San Diego playing and

(02:48):
Chris lives down there. He said, you know, I'd like
to come to the show. And so came to the
show and after sometime during the course of events, while
he was there, it around in our my hotel room.
My wife and I were both there, and he said,
you know, do you guys have a biography about the band?

(03:10):
Anybody ever write a book about the band? I said no,
and told him the same thing I said to you
that it was always something on my bucket list, but
I had never done any goes. Well, you know, I
just got done writing a book with John Oates kind
of about his life and you know, his take on

(03:30):
his participation in Hall of Oates. And he said, you know,
I you know, if you're into it, I could help
you get started on something. So I said, well, you know,
maybe we could talk to the rest of the band,
and so we went in. I had a little meeting
with myself and Tommy and John McPhee was there as well,

(03:51):
and started talking about it, and Chris said, I could
you know, I could help you. I could either you
could do interviews with me and I could uh, you know,
right stuff and it would sort of be He said,
I think it would be most interesting to have it
from your you guys joint vantage point, you know, Tommy

(04:14):
and I you you started the band and you're still
doing it, so it would be you know, you'd have
a really great overview. So um, that was how it
came about. And in the end, you know, I would
say Tommy and I probably wrote more than Chris in
the end. He would write, he wrote things, and he's

(04:35):
a great writer, and but sometimes he'd send me something
back and I think that's not the way I would
tell that story. And then I would just sit down
at my computer and I would retype, you know, the
whole thing kind of more a little bit more from
my perspective or more in my own voice. And but
it was really Chris's prompting that that helped us to

(05:00):
put it together, helped us to you know, dust off
the cob webs and remember events. It was funny, you know,
we as we did it. Uh. We we wrote things
and I would think, well, that's good, there's a story.
And then i'd I'd read it and I'd go, oh,
I forgot about this or I forgot about that, and go, Christal,
I have time to put this in. And you go, sure,

(05:21):
you know you want to write it or you want
me to interview in. We'll put it together and I go, well,
let me try it, and so I would sit down
and write and it became a It was a lot
of work because it took us literally years to do it,
but it was fun at the same time to to
remember things and and it was from from my perspective anyway,

(05:43):
it was something that I originally wanted to do myself.
So being having that opportunity to actually sit down with
my own in my own voice and with my computer
to write it myself, I enjoyed that aspect of it.
So so that was it. And uh, you know, um,
you've got to thank Chris for you know, prodding us

(06:05):
to get the project going, because really, I don't I
don't know if it would have ever gotten off the
ground if it hadn't been for him. Now, the two
points in the book that stuck out for me were
the transition from Tom to Michael McDonald. There was a
lot more detail than we've ever seen in the press,
and a number of negative comments about Skunk Baxter at

(06:26):
the end of his tenure. How did you feel about
writing that stuff? Was that something well, I'm just writing
the truth, or you were fearful that Skunk would not
like it? What was going through your mind all of that. Absolutely. Um,
I h that was a very difficult time and a
difficult um you know, with with Tommy leaving the band,

(06:49):
that was a horrible time for me personally. UM. Thanks
to Jeff for really uh standing by me and and
you know I got a hand it to him. I
think he was really strong at that point in at
that transition as it as it turned out, you know,

(07:10):
it just kind of went to went to hell in
terms of his relationship with with the band. You know,
in the end, kind of sad I was. I didn't
know exactly how to present that in the end. I
just kind of wrote it up the way it happened.

(07:32):
You know. That was probably the only real kind of
negative moment for me with anybody in the band in
terms of kind of a rough road to maneuver. But
you know, I felt like that was that was the

(07:52):
way it went, and that was the way I wrote it. Now,
subsequent to the band breaking up in the early eighties,
and there were a couple of charity gigs. Have you
seen Skunk? Do you have any relationship with Skunk? I
have seen him, Yeah, sure, UM, not not a lot. Ideologically,
we don't. We don't mesh. You know, Um, I don't

(08:16):
know how far to get into politics because it really
is political and you know what I mean, well, I
won't say political ideological, but but these days, you know,
ideological and political are kind of the same thing. So
um yeah, I just I don't I don't buy the

(08:37):
right wing, you know, sort of militaristic, ah intolerant if
you will, attitude about that part of our of our country.
Let's go back to the motorcycle. So how did you
get into motorcycles? Let's see, Well, you know, kind of

(08:57):
I had friends in high school that that row, and
they were always encouraging me to get into bikes. And
I my first, you know, probably serious girlfriend's brother, um
road with He had an old gosh, it was in

(09:22):
nineteen forty forty one Knucklehead Harley that he wrote that
was his everyday transportation. Really, I don't even think he
had a car at that point. And I loved that bike.
I just admired the bike so much. And I had
I had ridden, um you know, Hondas and stuff, and

(09:42):
um not nothing I ever owned. It always belonged to
my friends, and I rode and then one day this
buddy of mine, Bill said, you know, I have a
B S A four. He went, Victor, it's up in
northern California at the guy's house and I loaned it

(10:05):
to him to ride. And uh, I can't remember. We
had probably talked about it at one point, he said,
but that bike's up in northern California. He said, I
gave it to him to ride, and he's not riding it.
So you know, if if you want to ride that bike,
all you gotta do is go up and get it
and you can ride it. So I said, oh, let's go.

(10:26):
So we jumped in. I had a little MGB hatchback
and we jumped in that car and we drove up
to Crescent City, which is way up in northern California,
right on the Oregon border. And uh. We got to
the guy's place late at night and he said, you know,
where's the bike. He said, Oh, it's in over and

(10:48):
my dad's business. It's in the garage. His dad had
some kind of a of a business, screen door business
or something. He goes over there and we can go
get it in the morning. So so we stayed the night.
We got up in the morning, we went over there
and we walked and go where's the bike and he
points over in the corner. He goes, it's over there,

(11:08):
and we look at a bunch of cardboard boxes and
the bike was completely disassembled. So there's the engine here,
the frames laying there and stuff is you know, not
completely the engine had not been disassembled. Luckily, it was
still in one piece. So anyway, we we Uh. My
buddy says, well, we're taking the bike and he goes, yeah, well,

(11:31):
I tried to fix it. He goes, I was gonna
I'm fixing it. He goes, if you're fixing it, why
did you tear it all to apart? And he goes, oh,
you know, we just thought that's what we needed to do.
And he goes, I shook our heads. So put it
in the back of my hatchback and I, you know,
I tied the back. It couldn't even fit it in there, really,
so it's hanging out the back. And we drove back

(11:53):
up north and we got to San Jose and there
was still it was in those days, it was late sixties,
there was still a B. S. A dealership in San Jose.
So we stopped either and I picked up a manual,
a repair manual, took it home, laid it all out

(12:13):
and started putting it together. I had my manual there
and I started putting the bike together, and then my
girlfriend's uh brother came over and he kind of gave
me a few pointers. All I really had for tools
was like a couple of screwdrivers and a pair of
pliers in a crescent ranch. That was kind of the
extent of my tool collection. But believe it or not,

(12:36):
you can do a lot with with that. And so
I started putting the bike together. I put it all together,
put it back together, and I couldn't get it started.
It wouldn't start. And then so I'm looking through, well,
it could be this, it could be that, and uh
so I I just started take went down to the

(12:57):
b s A shop. I said, give me a give
me this or that and different parts, and started replacing
parts in the bike. And every time I would replace
a part, I try to start it and try to
start it. And then finally it started and it wasn't
you know, it was running really rough, but I dialed

(13:18):
it in and had a little uh you know, British
carburetor on it. I forget what they call those carburetors,
but anyway, and just started, you know, tweaking on it,
and dialed it in, got that bike running, and I
rode the bike for the next couple of years. That
was not my main motor transportation, but at times it
was because my car would break down and then I

(13:38):
have nothing but that that motorcycle. So um and it
was a single cylinder bike with it had was supposed
to have a compression release because they are super high compression,
and the compression release was broken. So when you started,
it would kick back, and sometimes it would kick back

(13:59):
and just about send you over the handlebars, you know,
it kicked back so hard. And anyway, I learned a
lot about, you know, mechanics on motorcycles. I already understood
a certain amount of mechanics. I had worked in gas
stations and stuff. But uh so I really cut my
teeth on that bike. And then years later I got in,

(14:20):
you know, I went out and bought a Harley. When
I finally made some money with the band, I went
about Harley Davidson. But but that old B S A
was a great, great old bike. It was fun. You
could you could it did a lot, you know. It
was a good street bike. You could take it in
the dirt. It was just a lot of fun. It
was a neat bike, and I had another one until

(14:41):
recently I just sold it. But anyway, that's kind of
my beginning. That's how I got into bikes. You worked
in gas stations and you rebuilt this motorcycle. Were you
also a tinker with your musical equipment a little bit? Uh?
You know, Uh, I didn't really, I I was. I

(15:03):
started playing guitar when I was eight years old, so
you know, I had to learn about the ins and
outs of replacing strings and tuning and and you know,
parts of the guitar. I never really built or rebuilt guitars. Um.
You know, I just my guitars were all always stock

(15:24):
instruments pretty much. Um. If I had anything you know,
crazy I want to do, I would send it to
a you know, an expert, you know, somebody that had
a guitar shop or something, you know where they worked
on instruments. But yeah, you know, in terms of you know,
really tinkering, I don't think I ever really. I mean,

(15:48):
I've taken guitar guitars completely apart and put them back
together again, uh you know, but they were always with
the same parts that that came out of them pretty much.
So how many motor cycles you own now, I don't know.
Quite a few I've got, I've got, you know, a
garage I keep mad. I don't know, probably thirty or forty,

(16:13):
about forty forty, probably closer to forty. Okay. I don't
know anybody who's ever owned a motorcycle who hasn't dumped frequently,
not even their fault. Fault is a driver in a car, whatever,
what has been your experience. There's only two types of bikers,
the ones that have been down and the ones that
are going down. You know, it's uh, it's something that

(16:39):
kind of comes with the territory and and really you
have to I don't think everybody has to take a
spill on a bike, but often, you know, you you
push the envelope and that's where the problem is starting.
It's usually often you're not going that fast. Um, you know,

(17:00):
most people dump a bike in the gravel and they
may be only going a couple of miles an hour,
but bikes get really squirrely in the gravel, and if
you hit the brake, especially the front break, you're probably
gonna go down on the bike on the street. That's
often when you you're you know, maybe you're you're out

(17:21):
on a wet road, or you're you're somewhere where somebody
has been parked or dropped some oil and you happen
to go through that that spot. Um Probably most often
it's when people are going too fast on a bike
and they you know, coming into a corner. That's often

(17:43):
a place where people lose it on motorcycles. I've really
learned a lot about safety equipment, wearing the right clothes.
I didn't used to wear a helmet in the old day.
After friends of mine had some horrible accidents and were

(18:05):
wearing helmets, I decided, I'm going to go, you know
with with the helmet, and I'm glad. I had one
spill and I was wearing a helmet, and I don't
think I actually hit my head, but I was really
happy I was wearing a helmet and and and wearing
all the equipment that I needed. I had the leather

(18:26):
pants on, and I know, skidded on the road, and
you know, I actually my toe in my boot, which
is a steel toe boot, wore all the way through
the leather to the steel toe and scraped. So you know,
we're having the right equipment is really important on a bike.
I have gloves on as well, you know, so I

(18:47):
didn't sustain any injuries. I kind of squashed squashed my
toe in my boot and my toe hurt for a while.
And but the bike was fairly well scraped up and
you know bent bent components and so on. So you know,
there's safety is an issue, and the proper clothing can
really make a big difference. And how you you know

(19:10):
what happens to you in that instance. So what motivated
you to play the guitar at AG Well, let's see,
I had taken piano lessons when I was a little kid, uh,
and I you know, I just loved music, Um, I had.

(19:31):
I've listened to music all my life, you know, since
I was a small child, and so I've always been
inspired by by music in general, all kinds of music, uh,
specifically rock music in the fifties. You know, I probably

(19:53):
had a similar kind of experience that that Tom had,
and that I had a you know, an older friend.
I think it was his brother that probably turned him
onto some of the the coolest music. But I we
I had a friend of the family that had come
to stay at our house he was in the middle.
He was just going into the army and he came
stayed to our house a little bit, and then he

(20:14):
left his entire record collection of forty five and it
was just all the best songs from the area, you know,
the Everly Brothers, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Bobby Darren, the Coasters,
Connie Francis, too too many to even remember. But so um,

(20:42):
I list sat there and listen to those records for
every day, for hours. I would just sit and listen,
you know, until I was exhausted, you know, from listening,
and uh, across the street one you know, I met
the kid across the street and I around the same time.
Everything kind of clicked at once I went over to

(21:03):
his house. I had met him, you know, playing outdoors.
We just moved into the neighborhood and went over to
his house and walked. He took me into his bedroom
and sitting there in the corner was a guitar and
it was, you know, an arch top harmony guitar, but

(21:24):
kind of a upper upper end harmony. It was a
nice guitar for the times. And I just I froze,
you know when I saw the guitar, because I had
never I've never seen a guitar in up in person,
you know. I've seen him on television and of course
new people played guitars here him on records, but I

(21:48):
had never seen one. And there it was in the corner.
I'm just like, it was magical, you know this, wow,
there it is. We had a piano and that that
was pretty magical too, But guitar, there's something about it.
They're just called to me. And so I said, you know,
can I touch it? Yeah, go ahead to pick it up,

(22:11):
you know, strum it if you want to. So I
took it overset on his bed and he put the
guitar in my hands and and I just, you know,
I strummed it. And he goes, you want me to
teach you a chord? And I go yeah. So he
taught me a g chord and that was the beginning.
And I was there every day at his house after that.

(22:33):
Every Hey, Ronnie, can I can I come in look
at your guitar player? Guitar? Sure, come on in. And
he had his dad had a guitar to his mom.
His mom and dad were sort of country folk musicians
and they had a band or had had a band
at one point or another, and so his dad had
a guitar too, So we sat there together and he

(22:55):
would he taught me chords, and then pretty soon we
were playing so looks together. He taught me songs and
that was it. I was off from there on. I
was you know, live, eat, breathe, guitar songs music. You know,
that was okay. So this was in the state of Washington.

(23:16):
It was in California nineteen fifty eight probably, but you
were born in the state of Washington. Is I was
born in the state of Washington. And how did you
end up moving to California. My father was an educator.
He was a teacher, and my mother was also and
my father had I went to school to my dad

(23:38):
in Washington for a little bit. He was a principal
at a school I attended when I was just a kindergartener,
and that's how I came to play the piano a
little bit. My dad would take me to some uh
one of the students parents and lived nearby, and this

(24:00):
kid's grandmother was there, and somehow my dad became acquainted
with her and asked her if she would keep an
eye on me. After I got out of class. I
would go half a day, and then my dad was
there all day until about three or four in the afternoon.
And so about noon I would go to this lady's

(24:21):
house and really like the first couple of days we
were there, I saw her piano sitting in the living
room and I went over and I tinkled on. I
can remember really memorable going over and you know, hitting
the keys. And she said, oh, do you play the piano?

(24:42):
And I go, Now, we my sister plays. She was, oh,
you have a piano at home. I go, yeah, she said,
what would you like to learn? I go sure, She said, well,
I I teach piano among other things, and you I'd
be glad to you know, your hair every day, you know,

(25:03):
would you like to learn to play? And I go,
she goes, I love. I love to teach piano. So
she started teaching the piano, and I was there every
day for the next I don't know how it was,
probably however long you go for a year, eight months
or something, but five five days a week I was
there at her house, playing the piano and loving it,

(25:28):
you know. And then she was more than she was
a teacher, but she was a mentor as well, so
she you know, we would spend a half hour on
the piano and then it was a cool routine. Every
day I looked forward to it. We would play a
little piano and then she would say, okay, time for
cookies and milk. And so then we'd sit and she

(25:53):
turned on the radio and every day, you know, the
Liberaci at a radio show, and she loved that, being
a anno person, music person. And we'd listened to Libracci
live on the radio and you know, he would play
and he was of course, he was fabulous musician and
funny too, you know, so it was entertaining for all,

(26:14):
for both of us. But you know that it was
you know, great applic you know, really uh direct application,
you know. So I would learn and then I would
listen to what you know, what could happen if you
continued in music, you could be playing like and she
would she told me, you know, if you if you
keep going, you know you could you could do this too,

(26:37):
if you if it's in your you know, if it's
something that calls you, you know you could you could
be a great piano player. So I never I loved it.
But then when we ended up in California, my dad
got an offer for a job in California. So I
was so happy because I was in Aberdeen, Washington, which

(26:59):
is like, you know, arguably the rainiest part of the state.
You know, it's the Pacific rainforest near the coast, and
pretty much my memories are rain every day. You know,
it rained every day in my rain really hard some days.
But even if it wasn't raining hard, it was sprinkling

(27:21):
or something. It was just always wet, always misty. And so,
you know, come in California was like I had heard
of California. It was like, you know, that's where the
cowboys go, you know, that's where they take their cattle.
And so we ended up in Palaulto, kind of south

(27:42):
of San Francisco there, and we spent a year there
and then ended up in San Jose. And when I
was about six, I guess six seven, we ended up
moving to San Jose and I grew up there. That's
where I was through high school and college, through San Jose,
all through you know, getting together with with the band

(28:04):
the Doobie Brothers. I was, you know, I'm a San
Jose guy. Okay, So you're in school, good student, popular,
bad student, unpopular. I was a good student. I don't
know what popular is. I wasn't as popular as I

(28:25):
as I wished I was, you know. Um, but I
did well in school, and I love sports. I participated
in everything, you know, student council. I was always involved,
you know, and that that aspect of school and you
finished college. I did not finish college. I went until

(28:48):
I got a high lottery number in the draft. You know,
I kind of thought I would go back. I I
the whole time, I should say, I was playing music,
like continuously really, from the time I was eight years old,

(29:09):
playing the guitar. I just played, you know, every day,
all the time until I could really perform, you know,
until I could get up in front of an audience
and and entertain. Um. I think my my parents sort
of encouraged me in that aspect for a while until

(29:32):
I until I reached high school, and you know, everything
kind of changed culturally too, you know, long hair and
psychedelics and stuff, and then it became a different you know,
they were freaked out by that, of course, Um, but
pretty much, you know, continually continually played music and and

(29:56):
that was always part of it. And so so I
love college, love learning. And when I went I ended
up at San Jose State UM, and you know, had
all intentions of getting a degree, and as time went
on UM music became more of a focal point for me.

(30:18):
I thought, you know, if I, if I don't pursue this,
I could see people around me who were, you know,
having success in music, and I didn't think we're that great.
And then so I thought, you know, I you know,
I may, I may never get rich doing this, but

(30:39):
at least I can uh maybe make a living around town,
you know, I can get some gigs at clubs, and
I did. I was able to work, you know, so
to me, you know, I've always had jobs, you know,
hourly jobs, but none was as satisfying as as playing

(30:59):
you sick, and you know, you make you make more
money per hour, you know, playing music than then you're
going to make doing almost any well, not almost anything else,
but certainly minimum wage jobs at least. Okay, I'm a
little younger than you, and you know, the early sixties
was the folk boom. Everybody was playing a nylon string guitar.

(31:22):
The Beatles hit boom, everybody gets an electric guitar, everybody's
forming bands. Ay were you playing out before the Beatles? B.
What was it like when the Beatles hit for you?
I was already playing electric guitar. I kind of I
went from acoustic guitar. I was kind of a roots guy.

(31:46):
I I played, you know, a little bit of country
music when I was very young, and then when the
folk boom came about in the early sixties, I love
that music. I mean I you know, they were TV
shows that you know, every week that portrayed music, the Limelighters,

(32:09):
and you know, there were some successful groups in the
Kingston Trio. Um, this is earlier, kind of pre there.
I kind of there was a delineation from more ah,
what would be the word real early American folk songs?

(32:32):
Would he got three um pete seeger Odetta. I'm trying
to think of people that were, you know, within that context,
even people like Johnny cash Um. I can't remember some

(32:53):
of some of the names, but people that sang more
traditionalist word it's more traditional music. It's it's early American music,
older songs, things that were written at the turn of
the century and then came a more modern era with
I would think probably the most obvious proponent or you know,

(33:19):
someone to site would be a band like Peter Paul
and Mary who suddenly were writing more contemporary songs and
and UM singing songs by contemporary writers, Bob Dylan being
the obvious writer, and so that UM really appealed to me.

(33:39):
Those new songs. I had been singing, you know, early
American folk songs, burl ives kind of stuff. I had
teachers that that loved that early music, and I loved
it too, you know. And and then suddenly there was
this new uh songwriting going on and kind of obscure

(34:04):
images that were not as obvious and what those songs
are even about. Sometimes probably for my young mind, I
didn't even know what some of those songs were about,
but I knew that they connected with something, you know,
in in my in my psyche and and my soul.
And so that's where I started looking at another aspect

(34:29):
of of music, songwriting particularly. And then there were at
that same time here shortly after that, there was in
the British music scene with you know, the Stones, the Animals,
um them uh and I love that, and I thought

(34:54):
that was a There were other artists that I had
been was familiar with that were more rock oriented artists
that were blues based, you know, um bo Diddley Chuck Berry.
But in my mind those were kind of folk artists

(35:18):
as well. The songs that they wrote and sang, we're
reflective of our of our daily lives, you know, uh,
certainly of their daily lives. Probably not my daily life.
I was, you know, white kid in the suburbs. They
were black kids from you know, the south and the city,
but certainly similar music, probably to some of the more

(35:42):
modern folk music that was coming out. So it all
it all for me, It's all jelled into a movement
in music that really spoke to me. And you know,
I began to two. I discovered the blues, you know,
uh that that was really meaningful to me at that

(36:07):
moment in time. I had a friend that was a
singer at a folk club and I I went I
would see him play. It was an older guy and
he was singing the blues, and I thought, that is
there's there's some music that I aspired to, and so
I started taking lessons from him. He turned me onto

(36:29):
you know, different blues artists and and that, and that
became another focal part in my life. And then from
there I started looking around and realizing that there was
some you know, the British blues scene was so wonderful
because it it turned turned a lot of people onto

(36:54):
you know, really great people that we had probably not
I I certainly had not been aware of bb King
and Albert King and you know, Bobby Blue Bland and
so when I've heard their music, but only on the fringe,

(37:15):
you know. And then suddenly that music came alive for me.
And so I started listening to the blues and uh
and and learning the blues and you know Paul Butterfield,
Mike Bloomfield again that I bought that that first Butterfield album,
and I listened to that album over and over and

(37:39):
over again. I was like, I wouldn't you know, it
was just such a wonderful album. And then being there
in the Bay Area when the Psycho, you know, when
the Bill Grahams and and all the San Francisco bands
began again that was the edge of folk and electric. Um.

(38:01):
It was just such a you know, I was so
inspired by that, that whole movement, and I was there.
I was part of it in a sense that not
that I was, you know, in some really big band
at that time. I played with a few bands around
the area and play with the Chocolate Watch Band for

(38:21):
a little while, which was kind of a uh you know,
a regional band there that had some success. But primarily
I was just out playing by myself with my guitar,
and you know, I would sit in with people and stuff.
But I recognized that if I was going to work, UM,

(38:43):
I had better have it together myself by myself before
anything else. Because band sort of came and went and
the one you know, you join a band and then
it would fall apart, and you join a band and
it would fall apart. But I could always depend on
the fact that if I had some songs and I
could leaved, I could I could keep a band together,

(39:03):
you know. So I did. I was able to make
a living and and do something I loved at that time.
You know, so at that time, when did you stop
doing day gigs and just play music. In the mid sixties,
I was well, let's see, I probably was in high

(39:23):
school then, um, and I was always working. I always
had a job part time. Uh, And so I would
work during the day and then I would play at night.
I got gigs and clubs even as a kid. Uh.
Those are the days of coffee houses, so you could,
you know, there was no nothing about age. You could

(39:46):
be as and in fact, being young sort of work
to my advantage. I was a the youngest kid on
the stage at most of these coffee houses. So it
enabled me to have a kind of a unique pres
since that, oh, here comes the kid, he's gonna play.
Are you working tonight? Yeah, I'm working, cool man, you know.

(40:07):
And and so I would get these gigs as a kid,
and I was able to work. It was just, you know,
really great. And my parents were cool with it as
long as it was a weekend. They don't like me
working during the week because I had to go to school.
But you know, I didn't make a ton of money,
but uh, you know, I would work. I worked at

(40:29):
a gas station. I made a buck a dollar an hour,
and I worked ten hours, ten twelve hour shift when
I was sixteen, make twelve dollars. And then you had
to pay you know, taxes and so security and all
that stuff. So maybe if I made nine bucks after

(40:50):
working ten hours, and even by the standards of the time,
that wasn't much money. And although you know, it was
money that I made and it was mine, it was
in my pocket. I could do what I wanted with it.
But if I played a gig, I could make ten
bucks in three hours. Uh, you know, at a club

(41:15):
and doing something I really love. So that was that
was what I wanted to do. Okay, one theme in
the book that is really camered and I mean that
in a good way, over and over And this is
the first time I've really seen it so consistently. Is
this love for Moby Grat tell me all about that.
I had a friend who I played with in a

(41:37):
band in high school and uh, it must have been
I forget when that album came out, sixty sixty seven maybe.
And now one day he calls, maybe, goes, Pat, I
got something you gotta listen. You gotta here, and I
said yeah. He goes, I'm coming over. So he comes

(41:57):
over and he goes, you gotta hear this. This is
He goes. You know, he had turned me on to
a big brother in the holding company. He told me,
you gotta go up to this club in the Santa
Curus Mountain, the Barn, and here this band, big brother
in the holding company. And this was sixty six, he said.

(42:19):
He goes, they've been playing up in San Francisco. He says,
but they're act there down here and they're playing the
club in Scott's Valley, which was but twenty minutes from
my house, you know where I lived. So I drove
over and I sat there and here comes big brother

(42:39):
in the holding company of the Janis Joplin, and I
was cold. My friend, the same guy who brought me
the Moby Grape album, I sat there and listened to
the band. Never heard him before, was before they recorded,
and it was like I never heard any any woman
singing like this in my life. This is again life

(43:00):
changing moment to hear that live. I think I paid
a dollar and a half or something to come in
and see him. It was the barn in Scott's Valley
was an old barn. I saw Country Joe there. There
are all these bands from San Francisco that used to
come and play. So anyway, the same guy who turned

(43:22):
me on to going to see Janis Joplin says, you
got to hear this record, and so we put it
on and it was the first Moby Grape album. He goes,
what do you think? He goes, He goes, I think
it's the best San Francisco band of all of them.
He goes, what do you think I go, I think

(43:44):
you're right. I think I go. There isn't a guitar
player in the whole state, in the whole you know,
of all the guitar players I had heard, uh, there
probably wasn't a better rock and roll guitar player than
Jerry Miller. And it stands up today. He listened to

(44:07):
the playing. You know, I love you know, I love
Jerry Garcia, I loved your mcauchinan, I love Barry Melton.
Back then, I mean I was over the head over
heels for the San Francisco music, Gary Duncan. I loved
all those guys. I mean, they were great players, I thought,

(44:31):
and uh, you know, I still love them to this day.
But Jerry Miller, he was just amazing, A great sort
of bebop player, you know, like I'm trying to think
of the bop guitar players, you know, it doesn't matter,
but just a great all around player, great blues player,

(44:55):
a great jazz player, a great country player. Uh. He
blew my mind. And then the songs were and again,
you know, this is something that probably our band is
all the guys in our band I think take to heart,
and I certainly do. It's about the songs. That's what people,

(45:20):
at least for for a band like ours, it's and
in my own mind it's always been about the songs.
When I hear a great song, that's what stays with me,
that's what I you know, uh, connects me to an artist.
And the songs that Moby Grape had were just great

(45:43):
songs and all these different singers and players writers. It
was a phenomenally talented bunch of guys. Uh misguided in
terms of, you know, the business and their management and
everything else that went that goes with that aspect of

(46:07):
being an artist unfortunately, but musically, I to this day,
I think they're one of the best of the San
Francisco bands ever. And a lot of people don't aren't
that familiar with them because they never really made a
big splash nationally. They were limited by their own foibles,

(46:29):
if you will, you know, the things that you know,
the obstacles that they put in their own pathway. But
still a great band. I think people would do the
do yourself a favor, go back to go listen to
eight oh five by themby Grape by Skip Spence was

(46:49):
you know a crazy person, you know, you know, really
a wild guy. But Oh Maha is a song that
he wrote that I still think a great rock song.
It just had it was magical for the times and
pretty modern for that era, you know, with feedback and

(47:12):
just just an odd rhythmic track. Really interesting production. David
Rubinson was it was a great producer. So anyway, great
great band, great album. Okay, so you're playing solo, you

(47:35):
don't have to worry about the army. How do you
get involved in bands? And then how do you ultimately
meet Tom? I had regular gigs around San Jose Los
Gatos on my own as a as a solo guitar player.
IM I have written songs and I was doing covers

(47:56):
at the time, and then I at one point I
played this little club in half Moon Bay and it
was called the shelter In and it was owned by
a guy that I was acquainted with. He had a
club in San Jose, also called the shelter In, in

(48:17):
downtown San Jose, and at that time, in that particular
club downtown San Jose, your mcachenen was playing um Dave Nelson,
who ended up playing the new Writers of the Purple Stage,
had a regular gig there with a band his the
Pine Valley Boys. I think it was a blue grass band.

(48:40):
I believe Skip Spence played there a time or two.
Ah gosh, some some other people that had that had
done well in the music business around the BA area
ended up playing there from time to time. Anyway, Mike
relocated to Half Bay. He sold the place to someone else,

(49:04):
and then he opened another shelter, and I think the
shelter in San Jose finally closed. He opened another one
in half Moon Bay. So I went up there. I
had heard about it and auditioned, and I got the
gig and I started playing there. Well, it turns out
Mike was a pretty good violin player, and he asked
to sit in with me. Um, this is the owner,

(49:25):
And of course you don't refuse the owner sitting in
with you, so he said. And sure enough, he was
a really good violin players. So we started digging together
and I I had I got the gigs, and he
would join me. Um, and then he finally moved down

(49:46):
to Los Gatos, and then we ended up playing all
around San Jose and he one day he goes, you know,
I know this guy is a great bass player. Um,
you think you'd want to have a bass player play
was I go, of course, and that would be wonderful.
So it goes. Let me call him, you know, and

(50:08):
see if he's interest in coming and sitting. We were
getting a little bit better, more high profile gigs paying
a little bit better. And then I had regular gigs.
I was doing weekly, So I wasn't making a ton
of money, but it was regular money coming in for
for both of us. And so we called he calls
the bass player and he and this was Tyronne Porter,

(50:33):
who ended up being the bass player for the for
the Doobies UH a couple of years later. So Tyrone
uh flew up. Those are the days you could get
a flight uh for dirt. You know, it's about fourteen
dollars to fly from l A to to San Jose.
So we picked him up and we rehearse and started gigging,

(50:54):
the three of us, and so he would come up
every weekend, and UH started gigging around San Jose and
and last adis Santa Cruz and we were doing pretty well.
And so we ended up digging at the Chateau Liberty
and that was my first experience at that club. The
three of us gig in there. I think I had

(51:16):
gig there once by myself, um and then the three
of us. So we started digging regularly at the chateau,
and Mike h Mike and I kind of broke up.
The band broke up, the three of us. Tyronne had

(51:36):
something else going on, and I forget something happened with nothing.
Mike had other things to do. He ended up, I think,
leaving town, and uh, so I was back on my own.
So I started playing around town with this guy, Peter Grant,
and Peter was he was a local I had known

(51:59):
for years. He was the banjo player, guitar player, he
had played. He was friends with some of the guys
in Grateful Dead. He had played on one of the
Dead albums. He had taught himself to play pedal steel
and ended up on I think oxom oxiwa playing steel
and anyway a really decent banjo player. So I had

(52:26):
played with three different banjo players around town and doing
blue grass because I was kind of one of my things.
I had made an effort to study a little bit
about blue grass, and I had friends that played, and
so I would just sit in and learn the you know,
how to learn the songs. You know the lot of

(52:48):
instrumentals and stuff, and I learned that task myself with
learning and listening to blue grass. So um, playing with Peter,
and one day we got this. I get this call.
It's Mike Mindel, my ex middle player. He goes, I'm
opening a club in h Campbell. It's the old Campbell
Theater was the downtown theater in Campbell, California, which is

(53:12):
kind of a suburb of San Jose. And I'm going
to call it the gas Lighter Theater. And I'd love
I love to have you come and play. What are
you doing now? And I said, well, I'm Paile playing
with this guy, Peter Grant. He goes, well, I'm trying
to book hot Tuna, and uh maybe you you guys
could come and open for hot Tuna. I go, yeah,

(53:35):
of course that would be wonderful. So so we get
to the I told Peter Bouty goes, I go, how
much are you paying? He goes, I'm paying you know whatever.
It was pretty good. I think he was paying me
like fifty bucks, which was a lot in those days.
So um, we get there and uh, no, hot Tuna.
Hot Tuna. They had a a commit that they had

(54:00):
to honor, and he couldn't They couldn't show up. So
he hired this other band, Pachuco. I go, well, I
know Pachuco. It's uh, Skip Spence and this guy, Bill
Andres was a guitar player in the band at the time.
So um, I go, well, that's that's great. You know,
I love both those guys, and that will be great anyway.

(54:22):
So um, so I had known Skip previously, and that's
another story in itself. But so we get there and
so Peter and I play, you know there, Skip's not
there yet. Peter and I set up and and we

(54:44):
do our set. We play an hour or so and
then I see Skip comes in, and I see these
other guys, and they go, well, where's Bill Andres. He's
not with them. So I go I talked to Skip.
I go as the worst. Bill He goes, I he's
in jail. So I got these guys. This is you know,

(55:05):
I mean, you didn't gotta meet these guys. Guys are great.
I go, okay. Skip was really kind of high strung
at that point, and uh, he goes, this is Tom.
This is John. So I to He goes, hey, how
you doing? You know? He goes, and we caught you.
We listened to your set coming in this man, you guys,

(55:26):
you sounded great, you and Peter and you really you
really nailed it. It was really great, you know. And
I go, well, I'm anxious, you know, hear you guys,
And he goes, yeah, well it's kind of loose. You know.
We really haven't rehearsed much. We just you know, Skip
told us he, you know, that his regular band members
weren't going to show up, and so he called us

(55:46):
and asked us if we play with him. So he go,
I go, well, whatever. You know, I was used to
see in bands like that that are kind of thrown together.
And but I was anxious to see because I I
hadn't seen Skip for years, and I was anxious to
see him. And he had this guitar that he had built,
and it was a stratocaster. Somewhere he'd gotten these longhorn

(56:11):
cattle uh horns and had him grafted onto the guitar.
It looked really demonic, you know, and it was painted
with you know, pin striping like they did on hot
rods and stuff. And he's wearing this long, this trench coat,
and he's wearing a hat like I'm wearing, right, now

(56:32):
he had a beret on backwards. He looked great, you know,
he looked every bit the rock star that he had
been and was. And uh so they get up there
and I can't even hear skips guitar. It's like, I
don't even I don't think it was plugged in. And

(56:55):
he's like doing all this you know stuff, and Tom
is up at the microphone own singing, and John and
they had a bass player with him, and they are
killing it. I mean, Tommy, you could tell that they
were whatever Skip was. These guys were rehearsed, and they

(57:16):
started playing kind of like like heavy metal, like cream.
You know, it was before there was even a term
heavy metal. It was you know, hard rock trio just
killing it. I mean I was like, oh my god,
these guys are really good. You know. It was not
my kind of music. I was like Peter and I

(57:36):
just got done doing traditional kind of a bunch of
traditional music and bluegrass and stuff, some blues a little bit.
And these guys are killing it. And they're playing the
blues too. But it's like loud, you know to me,
and as loud as they could get as he could
get his amplifier to go and they are killing it,

(57:59):
and I'm just like going, man, where these guys come from?
You know. And so afterwards I go back, I go, good,
you guys, you guys are great. You guys are really good.
And what are you doing? You know? He goes, well,
you know, I'm John. Was kind of a character, and
he was like really animated. He goes, yeah, I just

(58:20):
got here from uh, from Virginia, False Church, and I
just got into town. Yeah, I met I met up
with Skippy. Was kind of job. He's going, yeah, I
just made up a skip and we're putting a band together.
It's gonna be like really big, really good. And uh,
we're looking for some other guys. And we saw you playing.
We thought yeah, and then you know, this guy is
pretty good. You know, maybe you'd like to come in

(58:41):
and sit with us. You should come on, come by
the house. Man. We were we jam, we work out,
we we play all the time. You know, just this
rapid speech, and I'm going I'm going, oh, I don't
know about this, but but I liked him, you know,
I mean it was to me. They were really great

(59:02):
characters and really good musicians. And so I said, well,
you know, I said, I I said I will come by,
you know, I will come by sometime. He goes, well,
maybe you'd like to. You know, we're trying to put
this band together. We could use another guitar player, and
you look like you'd fit right in with what we're
trying to do, you know, with Tom's rhythm and you
and your picking, man, we could we could have this

(59:23):
whole thing and be like Moby great. You know. We
get skipping and I go, well, I go, I have
a band that I'm playing with, you know, um and uh,
I'm playing with Peter now. And I and I had
been playing on and off with Mike still the guy
that had the gas lighter, and Tyranne a little bit. Still.

(59:44):
We didn't play all the time as much, but we
still did play around. I said, oh, I have these
other things I'm doing. But I said, I will come
by and we'll connect and you know, see where it goes.
So so I never did. I never went by because
I thought, you know, I don't know, it's not I'm
not sure if it's my thing. So one day i'm

(01:00:05):
I'm at my house and knock, knock, knock. I lived
about about five blocks from from where those guys were living.
And I get to hear this knock and it's John Hartman.
And John he was in those days. He weighed about
three d and fifty pounds. He he was wearing clothes

(01:00:26):
that it looked like he'd slept in him, you know,
lived in him. They were just, you know, like he
looked like a hell's angel, you know. And I was like,
I loved what who he was and how he presented
himself that I was kind of like a little bit intimidated. Right,
So he goes, hey, man, I thought you're gonna come

(01:00:47):
over to the house, you know. I go, uh, you know,
I really I really wanted to. I just I've been busy,
and you know I've been I had a job, I
was still working. I had a day job as well.
So I go, you know, but I will, like I promise.
He goes, well, you gotta come by, man. We have
these jams. I mean it is they're out of sight, man,
and you would love it. You would love it. He goes,

(01:01:09):
you know, you got an electric guitar. I going, well, no,
I have this acoustic, but I do have a pickup.
I had this darm and pickup that I put on
my guitar. So so I go. Finally, I go, I
got it. I can't keep I can't, you know, not
go by after all that. So I got I got
the address, and I go by and Tommy's here. He's, hey, man,

(01:01:31):
come on in. You know. Yeah, I'm so glad you
came by. Hey, you want a jam, you know? I go,
I go, yeah, I just brought my acoustic. Giuse well,
come on out in the backyard. He says, I got
my acoustic too, and we'll just sit around a jam.
What the hell you know, I want to smoke one.
I go, sure, you know. So, so we go out
in the backyard and John brings the congo drum out there.

(01:01:53):
Tommy is this acoustic. I got my acoustic, and we
start just playing. I played some of my songs. He's
playing some of his stuff, and we're just you know,
backing each other up and having fun. And that was
the beginning of our relationship. I just I was wondering.
We spent hours just doing that, you know, we didn't
we never set up and played electrically or anything. Tommy says,

(01:02:14):
you gotta come back. Then we set up, we we jam,
and other musicians combine. He goes, probably some people you know.
He started name and name. It's like, oh, yeah, of
course I know that guy, this guy, and he goes, uh,
he goes, we're playing at San Jose State. Uh, this weekend.
You gotta come in and hear us. He goes, it's

(01:02:34):
it's different from what you heard was Skips. Skips not
in the band. So I go over. They play this
gig and it's like the trio again, but with a
horn section. It's so great. It's so real and amazing,
you know. It was like the horn section was really good.

(01:02:57):
So they're guys I knew already. They're surround town that
that I knew of them. They played in different bands
and I had played with. The sax player used to
come and sit in with me at a club I
played at, and so well rehearsed, they killed it. I
came away thinking, yeah, this is really good. This is

(01:03:19):
really something real. These guys are really they really got something.
I don't know what it is, but and I don't
know how I might fit into it, but I loved
to be a part of this, you know. So I
started going over to the house and we would just jam,
sit and I had my acoustic guitar with a pickup
on it. Somebody would have an amplifier. I think I

(01:03:41):
had an amplifier. I brought my aunt and we started
jamming and that was the beginning. And then one day
they said, you know, hey, uh. I can't remember exactly
how it came about that. Tom said, you know, we're
we we have a gig and we'd really like you

(01:04:02):
to play on the gig with us. And I said,
who who's in the band and he said, well, it's myself,
John and this bass player we got and the other
guy we had left. We got this new bass player.
So I go over to the house and it's a
guy went to high school which was in the band,

(01:04:22):
Dave Shogrin. So I didn't, you know, I wasn't close
friends with Dave, but I knew him. I had met
him here and there and remembered him from high school.
He's to see him around the campus. And so that
was the band and we started. Uh. We we had
a gig, our first gig, I can't remember. It was
probably some club somewhere and we started playing and then

(01:04:44):
we just kept playing and we're still playing. Okay, so
you're playing because you've been doing it for a while.
At this point, At what point you say, man, we
want to get a record deal or were you always
looking for a record deal? That is kind of a
fun story. Um, I was living in this house, the
house that John came and found me at in the house,

(01:05:08):
and uh, one of the gals in the house played
in a band and the band was had been playing
around town. And I had known her for years, but
I never really knew she was a singer. And suddenly
she was in this band. And she's in a band
with other people that I knew, and they put they

(01:05:28):
started this band, and it was sort of bankrolled by
this guy who had inherited some money from his parents
somehow they had a trust fund or something, and so
they he went out and he bought them all instruments
and they started rehearsing, and they started gigging and getting gigs.
And I went to see him and I thought, my friend,

(01:05:49):
that singing is the best that this in this band.
She's the best part of the band. She could sing
the rest of it. I'm not sure about, you know,
And I'm not sure but the songs exactly how they're
you know, how they're getting these gigs because I'm thinking,
but you know, those were the days when it really
didn't matter if you had a guitar and you could

(01:06:12):
you had something going on, you you could get gigs.
But you know, I mean I liked them all. They
were all the good people and and uh as individuals,
I had seen them in different entities and I thought, well,
they're this guy is pretty good. That guy's good. But
as a band, I thought, I'm not sure about this band.

(01:06:32):
So one day she comes home, she goes, Hey, we're
gonna go make we're making a demo at the studio
up in San Francisco. And the guys that are that
have the studio, they're here right now in the house.
And I was there in the house because I shared

(01:06:55):
this house with her and a couple of other people.
And um, we paid. We paid a hundred dollars a
month for the house and there were three three of
us that split the rent. It was thirty three dollars apiece,
and somebody had to pay each each month. Somebody had
to pay the extra dollar, you know. So uh so

(01:07:18):
she comes in and with these two guys and they
introduced themselves. This is Marty, this is Paul, and uh,
I go and they were kind of like yeah, well
yea audio only so they have their noses in the
airh yeah, okay. They're kind of like high rollers, you know,

(01:07:40):
you know, elitist types. And she's going, we're going up
to make this demo tomorrow, and they're going, yeah this man,
the guys are really good. And I go, oh cool,
you know, I'm glad that's happening. So so, uh, they
go make the demo. I guess, and h I don't know.

(01:08:02):
I don't know. I think I heard the demo was like,
you know, not that great. So it's one name over
at at Tommy's in John's place and they go, hey,
we made this demo. You know you want to hear it. Uh,
you know, it's this two song demo and they he
puts it on and I go, yeah, that's pretty good.

(01:08:23):
You know, it's like these He goes, yeah, I just
I just wrote the lyrics these. I don't even know
what I was talking about it. I just wrote these
lyrics in the studio, you know, we threw these things together.
And I'm listening to him. I'm going that sounds pretty good.
You know, those aren't bad, And he goes, yeah, the
guys that have the studio up in San Mateo and

(01:08:46):
and there look there they're they're letting bands come up
and and do demos, you know, And so I go,
I guess wouldn't be named Marty and Paul. They ya,
those are the guys. I go, how did you find
how'd they find you? And he goes, Skip found they
found Skip, and Skip found us and took and brought tom.

(01:09:11):
It was Tom John and I think at that time
it was before Dave Chobrin they had made this demo.
I go, yeah, I met those guys and they go, yeah, well,
you know, we might be able to do some more demos.
We're just kind of waiting to hear back. He goes,
you would you want to, you know, play on something,
and saying if if we get another opportunity, I go,

(01:09:32):
of course, you know that that would be wonderful. So
I don't know. A few weeks later, Tommy calls me
and says, Skip just called us. He said we should
get up to the studio right away. He goes, they
want to do they want to do some more demos,
And I go, really now and he goes yeah. I goes, wow,

(01:09:54):
I got a gig. I'll cancel my gig and you
know we'll go do it. So so we drive up
to San Mateo and there's Skips there and and Marty
and Paul and we set up and we talked through
you know, what we're going to do. And so they say, well,
you know, we have a deal here. If if we

(01:10:17):
give you the free studio time, you have to sign
this contract with us that we're going to be your
representatives and that whatever we whatever these demos are, that
we own them, uh in the capacity that we're allowed
to shop them for you. And so that sounded reasonable

(01:10:41):
to me. I didn't that we don't mean better offers.
So so we went ahead and signed the contract and
then we go and start doing demos. So over a
period of three or four days, I guess, we threw
these demos together. It was a couple of songs of
mine and then four songs of Tom's. So, uh, weeks

(01:11:03):
go by. We heard the demos, we were like, wow,
those sound really good. We we never thought we could
sound that good. And we're going, yeah, wow, amazing. You know,
maybe maybe something will happen. You know, when we're playing
the demos for all our friends, you know, and they're
all going, wow, you guys are that sounds really good, man,

(01:11:26):
you guys, you guys are really going to do something. So, um,
weeks go by, months go by, we don't hear anything.
I guess nothing's going to happen. And and then all
of a sudden we get a call from the studio
and they say, look, we got some interest from some

(01:11:46):
different parties. A and M as interested in it. They're
the first ones that called us. And so we spoke
to producer at A and M. And at that point
we we would have taken anything, you know. And uh,
then we here that well, um, a couple of guys

(01:12:08):
from Warner Brothers that want to come and see you
guys play somewhere. People from and M. I think we
did alive in the studio where we played for them.
We set up and then we did, you know. We
ran through a few songs and uh it was a
producer of note I can't remember his name. Was it

(01:12:29):
David Anderley? It was not David Anderley, it was I'd
know the name if I saw it. I think I've
seen it not that far in the in the past.
But um, so then we hear that there are a
couple of guys from Warner Brothers are coming, So they're
going to come and see us play at the Chateau Liberty,

(01:12:52):
which is this club we've been playing in the Santa
Cruz Mountains, which is kind of a hippie biker bar
really kind of ah a great place to hear music,
but it's you know, a psychedelic inferno. And we're sort

(01:13:13):
of arguably the house band that we play there all
the time, but they love us there. We packed the
place and it's a small place, I mean full up.
It would be you know, three people, maybe three or
four people, and they would be spilling out the doors,
and we used to pack them in. I mean literally,

(01:13:34):
you know, people were packed shoulder to shoulder in the club.
So in walks ted Templeman and Lenny Warrenker and I
one of them was wearing like a white cardigan sweater
with with uh, you know, penny loafers and you know,

(01:14:00):
Teddy had you know, longish hair, but not long. It
was kind of like and and and Lenny is like
straight as an arrow, and and he's I think his
his his sweaters like draped over his shoulders and the
sleeves are tied front of that kind of thing. And
they're looking around and here's like the Hell's Angels and uh,

(01:14:23):
you know, hippies with you know, beards down to their
waist and you know, chicks with their boobs tips hanging out.
And I mean it's a scene right and drinking and
and it's loud in there. And we were in there,
and by that time I had an electric guitar and

(01:14:45):
that I had bought from the bartender, so I got
my ample and we're turned as loud as we could go,
and we're blasting, we're rocking hard, you know, and I
look over and you could see these guys. They stand
out like a spotlights on and their eyes are as
big as saucers. And I'm looking at and they're kind
of like look, you know, looking cursory back and forth,

(01:15:09):
like oh man, what have I got myself into? So
they're they're at They sit there through really the entire set.
We do a whole set there there the whole time,
and then finally, at some point, you know, we take
a break, we go over and meet and they're really nice,
you know, very you know, complimentary. Man, you guys sound good.

(01:15:33):
We heard your demos. We really we really liked the band.
And my memory is somebody said we really like to
sign you guys. And we had talked to the people
at A and M and they had never said, we
really like to sign you guys. And UM, as far

(01:15:53):
as I was concerned, A and M was a great label,
but Warner Brothers was, you know, a staple in entertainment industry,
from films to some of the people that I that
I had admired were on Warner Brothers at the time.

(01:16:14):
So we didn't take us long to decide, Yeah, Warner
Brothers is where we would want to be, so that
that's how we started. And you know, I think it
was just a you know, one of those random things
where our demo tape ended up at the right place.
Ted was had had been his job was kind of

(01:16:38):
listening to new music that was being sent in through
from different artists, and ours happened to be in the pile.
And from what he told me, he listened to you know,
fifty plus artists today sending material. And he told me
the way he listened to music was he listened to

(01:16:58):
the first song and he would listen for you know,
thirty seconds to a minute, and if it, if it
kind of he liked it, he would go on and
get to the middle of it and listen to some
of that, and that was it. If if he liked it,
he knew it, and then he would go on and

(01:17:20):
listen to the whole thing. But he said, if it
didn't hit him within that first thirty seconds to a minute,
it wasn't probably going to get go much further than that.
So sort of neat knee jerk reactions to the music,
which is I think probably how it really still is

(01:17:43):
that way in the music industry. Um, I find myself
listening that way a little bit. I listened further because
these days because I hear things that you know, maybe
there's something there that maybe I don't like it right away,
but if I give myself a chance, uh, you know,

(01:18:06):
there's there is something much deeper that you can discover
if you give yourself a chance. But anyway, that that
was our our experience. So the two of them produce
your first record, which I'm sure is a thrill You're High,

(01:18:27):
has the single Nobody Everything Stiffs Okay, even though Nobody
is your set opener, now set opener of your box set?
What goes through your head? And then how much pressure
is there for the second album? I don't think we
were surprised necessarily. Um, it's you know, we were well

(01:18:51):
aware of how it works, how the music business works,
and all the stories with that. People like to tell
you right away, you know, and don't don't get your
hopes up, kid. Um. And so when it didn't really hit,
I kind of thought to myself, well, boy, that was
a great chance we had. And and we got to

(01:19:15):
make an album. How many bands get to do that
on a major label. You know, I'll always be able
to pull that album out and say, see look what
I did. I did once, you know. And but we
still love playing together, and so we didn't really give up,

(01:19:35):
we thought, you know, um, Personally, I believed in Tommy Johnston.
You know, I believe I still believe he's a great,
uh songwriter, a great singer, a great stylist, a great poet.
So to me that that, you know what, was meant

(01:20:01):
so much to me. And I just at that time,
at that moment in time, I knew he had other
great songs that he would write. I just knew it.
And I was still writing, and I felt like I
was getting better as a writer, and uh and I
and the whole process is a gift. You know what

(01:20:22):
I mean. Music is and was has always been a
gift for me. It's something that I didn't do because
I thought I was going to be Liberaci. I did
it because I love Liberacci. So you know, I want
I wanted to be able to do that much. I
wanted to be able to play and have fun and

(01:20:46):
if if there was any success that came with it,
that was just frosting on the cake for me. So
I didn't know how long I would feel that way.
I mean, I obviously there's a point in your life
where you're going to go, you know, give it up.
You know you're not gonna make it. So but you know,

(01:21:06):
I never happened. We kept on going and uh but
initially it was simply because I loved what we were doing.
And and really through the years we've had moments where
we we haven't done quite as well. Um I could
say that now you know we're not. We haven't had
big hit records for a long time. You know, who cares.

(01:21:29):
It's about whether or not somebody wants to come to
your gig and see a play, and whether or not
you know you can afford to pay the guys to
to to show up, you know. Um, so that it's
still kind of the same for me, But back then
it was it was simply just believe in in in

(01:21:49):
the Tommy, particularly as an artist. I knew that he
was going to write some good songs that I would
enjoy playing. You know, So the second album comes out,
I'd be pretty close to tension. If I ever read
anything about the first Black and White album cover that album,
I don't remember. And I'm living in the hinter land
and out of nowhere. Listen to the music just black

(01:22:13):
you're reading about everywhere there's this band that do be
brubh blah blah blah blah. When you were cutting that album,
did you know that? Listen to the music, man, this
is gonna be our ticket to paradise. I don't think
you can predict things like that. I certainly knew it
was a good song, and I knew that for our
band anyway, I don't think it it's funny because I

(01:22:35):
don't think our music is quite like a lot of
other bands. You know, we're a little more We're like
the the White Eisley Brothers, you know what I mean.
In a way, we're kind of um. You know, you
could just you look at bands from the era, they

(01:22:56):
weren't doing quite as much UH pop R and B
maybe as we were doing at that time. A lot
of the music was more h I'm not sure. I
can't even you know, I can't even tell you what
was going on in the music world. But I knew

(01:23:17):
that we were we had a different take on what
we were doing and who we were. UM. Even as
as big a fans of the Moby Grape as we were,
we weren't like the Moby Grape in that regard. We
were different, a different kind of a band. UM. But

(01:23:38):
I knew that that song listen to music, I just
knew it was a good song, and I knew it
was as far as what we were presenting, it was it.
It exemplified the kind of music that we were doing. UM.
And in a certain sense, that was an extension of
a song like Nobody. UM. We had another song on

(01:24:02):
that record called Feeling Down Farther. I think it was
more of a direct um result or not result, but
much more related to that that kind of a riff.
But the riff was so catchy when I heard it,
I thought, well, that that is who Tom is as

(01:24:23):
a guitar player he has that, you know, it's sort
of a signature kind of a way of playing. And
I loved that aspect I was so you know, it
was really uplifting for me personally to hear him recognizing
that aspect of himself that he did so well, and so,

(01:24:47):
you know, I felt it was really good. And then
as a song, I just loved the you know, being
an old hippie and as as much of a hippie
then as I ever was, you know, it really had
a message that of goodness and peace and brotherhood that

(01:25:07):
that I believed and still believe in at the time.
And uh, you know, I was able to jump in
head first and help to make it as as good
as we could possibly make it. So the song that
I play most on the album at this point in
time that really resonates and I'm not blowing smoke up
your grass is to Loose Street, which is your song?

(01:25:30):
Tell me the backstory on that. We had been on
the road with Mother Earth nineteen seventy one. I think
we went out on the road with them, traveling around
the country, and my memory is we did end up
in New Orleans briefly. I think we did a date there,
I want to say, with Alice Cooper and UH and

(01:25:53):
Mother Earth maybe the three of us, and we were
we had done a tour called the Mother's Brothers Show,
which was a series of dates sponsored by Warner Brothers.
We both were UH kind of new acts for the label,
and they were those are the days when they were

(01:26:15):
trying to break their acts in you know, different you know,
going out at different ways. But anyway, they put up
the money for this tour and we went all over
the country, did about thirty shows maybe something like that,
and we ended up in New Orleans. Well, of course,
anyone that's been to New Orleans and knows what a
wonderful town it is, and so I basically fell in

(01:26:38):
love with it. So months later, after you know, the
album had um had kind of stiffed. I think by
that time, we were still booking shows everywhere, and we
got this offer to play these various venues around the South,

(01:27:03):
and so we ended up somehow we went down to
New Orleans and we stayed in town there and then
we went out and we played these you know, Baton
Rouge and these little parishes that were had clubs, and
we were able to make enough money to we wandn't
make a lot of money, but we're able to make

(01:27:24):
money to UM pay for our overhead. And we took
albums down there, and we went into a record store
there and we tried to sell some albums in the
in the area. I don't know if we ever did.
I think we went to ended up in a record
store like Spinal Tap and nobody nobody even came, you know.

(01:27:48):
But so we're down there for quite a few days,
and I think we had already begun working on the
album to Lose Street, and I was walking just you know,
walking around town and experiencing like a tourist New Orleans,

(01:28:10):
and you know, eating at the gumbo shops and uh,
you know, down in the French Market and taking the
street car and so on. And UM came away from
that experience just in love with New Orleans as as
a town, the people, the scene. UM and and wrote

(01:28:35):
that song and we went into the studio in San Francisco.
Wally Hiders and Warners had been dumb enough to give
us a budget, and we ended up in the studio
there as our own producers. We decided we could do
it better than than Ted and Lenny and we UH

(01:28:58):
started recording songs, and out of all those songs, I
think we got three songs that ended up on Talu Street,
one being Talu Street, another something White Sun, and then
this song called snake Man that Tommy wrote, and they
were all ended up on the album, almost abbreviations of

(01:29:20):
what we had actually done in San Francisco, except for
Toulu Street. And I had written that song and we
went in and recorded it, and I had been playing
the flute. Somebody gave me a flute, and I had
learned to play taught myself to play the flute, and
we got UH. We had the record of the song

(01:29:41):
and I and I I realized it was in a
key that was good for the flute, and I said,
the guys, the guys cure if I try a flute
on this song. So I went in and I played
the flute on it, and it was kind of the
perfect tonality and kind of mood for the song. So
it ended up on the record as well. UM and
then we've recorded that song, did the background vocals, the

(01:30:04):
three of us, and it was myself, Tom and Dave
Shogren and Dave was our bass player at the time,
and he ended up playing acoustic guitar, and he did
picking guitar with mine as well, which was really added
to it. I never realized he could do that until

(01:30:24):
we did that record, and then so that ended up
being on the album. In the end, Ted said, yeah,
we're gonna put that out that on the record as well,
and then we as we did the record, we realized
it was a real reflection of our love for Southern
music because there's so much on there. The blues based,

(01:30:47):
uh and some kind of folky based stuff, but all
of it reflects kind of that Southern mentality and our
experience in the South. You know, I think we all
we all loved it h and had not we were
really California guys when we got down there. We weren't

(01:31:09):
California guys anymore. We were Southern guys. We kind of
we didn't reinvent ourselves. I think we found ourselves who
we who we had been all along, and uh, you know,
that's kind of where we are today. The second album,
you almost can't ask for more success, but the third
album becomes ubiquitous with China Grove and Long Train Running.

(01:31:33):
But my favorite song on that album is the open
or natural thing. And if you go into the credits,
it's Robert Margloff and Malcolm cec. Of course we're famous
for working with Stevie Wonder. How did those guys get involved?
We heard that Stevie Wonder album. Um, I want to
say songs in the Key of Life, but it might

(01:31:54):
have been something. I think it was talking book at
that point. That's right, That's right, that's it was. And
uh was just the most amazing record and the you
know whatever Stevie wondered us, it's amazing. But uh that
he for the first time, and I'm sure we had
heard the synthesizer before in music, but he it was

(01:32:17):
at the forefront of his record, and uh, you know,
start reading about it. I'm sure there was articles written
about it, and we heard about these guys and we
mentioned it Ted, Ted, we'd really like to graduate to this,

(01:32:37):
you know, this instrument, and I don't know how we
can do it, how we can incorporate it into our music,
but we really feel strongly about moving in that direction.
What do you think? And he said, absolutely, I know
about it as well, and uh, let's do it. So
we contacted them. I'm sure Ted contacted them because as

(01:33:01):
a producer. He was always at the forefront of helping
us to contact our resources and musicians and pull it
all together. He had this assistant, Benita Brazier, who was
this incredible assistant of his who was really um instrumental

(01:33:24):
and and doing so much for us. She's the one
who helped us put that album covered together for the
Captain and me among other things. But anyway, we contacted
UH Robert and Malcolm and and they came and brought
this This UH structure was huge. Um it was probably

(01:33:50):
you know, three ft high and four ft wide, and
it had all these plugs and they were you know, um,
quarter inch plugs like guitar type plugs, and that you
would they would plug. And then and then there was
a keyboard in front and a small keyboard. It was

(01:34:12):
maybe you know, a third of an actual piano keyboard
what you'd see a normal keyboard would be. And and
then they would take the plugs and they would plug
from one junction point to another in this UH the structure,

(01:34:34):
and it would create waveforms. And every time they plugged differently,
it would come up they'd come up with a new
waveform UH different. It was how they plugged it as
to how the the tones would change. So for a
low tone, they would plug it a certain way. For
a high tone, they'd plug it a certain wave for

(01:34:55):
you know, uh, for a a waveform that was uh,
you know, spiked kind of a form, they plug it
a certain way. So every form had a certain h
and they knew it. They knew the formula for how
to how to make the sounds, and so they just

(01:35:17):
started doing it. Well, what do you how do you
like this sound? How do you like that sound? What
do you what do you think of this sound? And
we would play, you know, we got to play the keyboard.
We would play, or they would play, somebody would play
until we found that sounds that we that were generated
from this U synthesizer that we liked. And in that
with natural thing, it was a horn sound. I'm sure

(01:35:39):
Tom said, do you have something that's more brassy sounding
or horn like? And I'm sure he had something in mind,
something you'd heard on Stevie's record or something, And so
they came up with that horn sound for us, and
Tom said, I love that. That's that's it, that's it.
And so Tommy played that he uh, and all you

(01:36:01):
could play was one note at a time in order
to get a chord. You'd play that one note and
then you'd have to double that note using another key
on the keyboard to get a harmony, and then you
just build it up until it made a complete chord.
So I think that's probably three notes to build that.
But by spreading it, you know, across the mix, it

(01:36:25):
makes it sound huge. And you know, Don Landy was
really good at product producing, making more out of a
sound than you had so with reverb and effects and
so on. So um, anyway, that's how that song was.
That sound was created and we ended up using I
think we used it on three different tracks on the record.

(01:36:49):
Uh Salsie Midnight Lady was another track, and there's something
else on that record. I don't remember those two songs.
Those two songs, it stands out in the tracks, so
you can really hear what the synthesizers doing. But it
was life changing from us, you know. So you go

(01:37:10):
from nowhere to somewhere to being so ubiquitous. This is
now and we have Friday and Saturday night music shows
on TV. You're on those that there's almost a Doobie
Brothers backlash because you're so big what's it like on
the other side of the footlights? Okay, what's it like
being in the middle you're finally making some money in retrospect,

(01:37:33):
when you're ripped off where you're so busy working that
you didn't know which end was up? What was it
like for you? Boy? Good question. You know, I think
I was so happy just to have some success at
what we were doing. I don't ah, certainly, you know,
you get tired, and you know, things get a little

(01:37:58):
you know, um foggy as it were. But I enjoyed
every minute of it. I just kind of went, you know,
this is what we worked towards. And I knew I
always in the back of my mind, I always felt, well,
this you know, it took us a long time to
get here, but at any moment, you know, it could end,

(01:38:21):
and so you know, enjoy every moment of it, get
get the most out of it that you can. Um.
I I really didn't second guess it. You know, I
recognized that it was probably taking away from other aspects
of my life that I was missing, you know, some

(01:38:41):
of the some of the ride, but I really didn't
care to be honest with the music. Was I was
married to music? And everything else sort of took a
back seat. So I think I just enjoyed every bit
of it, you know, I mean, I love to travel.

(01:39:06):
I got to go back to New Orleans. I love
that I go there a lot. Still, Um, I loved California,
so you know, I got to got to see California
for you know, the place it really is. You know,
most people, you know, you live one place and it's
a it's a great state to live in. But you know,

(01:39:29):
to to get around and see from one end to
the other, and to see the whole planet from one
end to the other became, you know, something that I
never in my wildest imagination could have could have foreseen. Um.
You know, I'm a hopeless collector. I collect stuff, right,

(01:39:51):
I collected stamps when I was a kid. So I
saw the planet in little you know, one by one
squares for a good portion of my child my life.
And to be you know, seeing places that I've only

(01:40:13):
seen in postage stamps, you know, was beyond what I
had ever hoped for. So you know, I love what
I do. You know, I love what we do. Okay,
Captain Me almost couldn't be more successful. Doobie Brothers, one

(01:40:35):
of the biggest beings in the land. You put out
the next album, What were one's vices are now habits?
I don't care what anybody says. It's the Apotheosius, the
best album from that era, and there was a lot
of print type about it. And the song is going
to be another Park another Sunday. You know, Tom has
told me that, you know, their issues with radio stations

(01:40:56):
took it off because you know, what's the lyric in
the song. Whatever its stalls. The album comes out in February,
all of a sudden November, Blackwater comes on and then
just sustains it becomes a classic. So just a few
questions on that album. One did you feel the pressure? Two?
Were you disappointed? Three? Tell me the backstory on Blackwater? Well,

(01:41:21):
you know that that album, Uh, it took a long
time to get going. Um, and I think there was
a certain disappointment obviously. You know when you're a musician
an artist that you know you've been riding the gravy
train for a while and then suddenly it's like, where's

(01:41:42):
the hit? You know, I don't think I worry about
the hit. I think I you The whole thing for
me personally is the act of creativity. So I worry.
I worried more about the fact that will we be

(01:42:04):
able to continue our creative process, because you know, I hit,
HiT's a hit, but it's just another song that we made.
Albums we didn't make, you know, hits. We wanted to
make records, and you get a hit. It's the thing

(01:42:25):
that drives your career. And so the career being making music.
You know, it's not making hits or making money, it's
making music. And so I that's probably was, if anything,
that's probably the thing that I was most concerned about.
I wanted to keep making music, certainly want to make

(01:42:45):
a living, but you know, how much money do you need?
Who cares? You know, it's more about are you happy
and are you doing the thing something that you love?
And so that was a concern to me. So when
when the record petered out a little bit, I kind
of thought, well, you know, we gotta go back in

(01:43:05):
and make another record. That's all, you know, the big deal.
You know, that's what we would want to do. And
if you know, how many of those are we going
to get a chance to do, we better do it
while we have a chance. So so I was ready
to kind of go back in. I was right, you know,
writing more songs myself, and I think Tommy was probably

(01:43:29):
you know, we probably had that discussion at some point. Yeah,
it looks like we're maybe not going to get a
hit off this record. Maybe we need to, you know,
get go in and write some more songs. And then
we were we were in Europe, I think, doing we
we got this invite to do this again. Warner Brothers
are so innovative in terms of what they do and

(01:43:50):
at that time how much money they were spending on
their artists. They took the Doobie Brothers, Little Feet, Tower Power, Montrose,
uh Graham, Central Station, and a band called Bonnaru to
Europe to do this tour. Um. And we were there

(01:44:16):
doing that tour when one day somebody came in and said, hey,
looks like you got a hit. Really, what what's going on?
They said Blackwater? I go, I don't think so, you know,
we all we're looking at another song. I was anyway
thinking there's other songs that could be hits off the record.

(01:44:39):
That wasn't one of them. Um. But I kind of
took you with a grain of salt, because you know,
people say stuff like that doesn't mean it's true, and
we just kind of continue the tour and you know,
we're it was good news if it was true, but
if it wasn't true, you know, we're here are doing

(01:45:00):
something really cool that we love and with all these
great bands. And so it turns out it was true.
We got back and the record was getting played. It
was just, you know, a big surprise, and I told
the guys see all along, I was it was me,
it was but you know, so that we lucked out

(01:45:23):
on that one. How was that song created? Kind of
the same way to Louse Street was created? The song
to Louse Street down in New Orleans. Um, I had,
I had the riff and I played it for Ted
in the studio one time. I think we were making
uh we were in the studio doing the Captain and
the album and I had that riff way back then

(01:45:46):
and I was fiddling around between takes on something else.
I was putting some guitar on something and I was
fiddling with the riff and that's what is that? And
I go, just, you know, some riff that I have,
and that's really cool. You should think about writing a
song with that. And I go, yeah, I'd like to

(01:46:07):
I don't know, you know, I've been trying so anyway,
got down to New Orleans and still fiddling around with
that riff. And really I have always kind of written
songs in two different ways. One way, I'll write, you know,

(01:46:27):
chords and try to lay lyrics on top of that
with melodies and other what times I'll write poetry and
then bring the poetry back and see if I can
fit it in somewhere with with something I'm working on.
In the case of Blackwater, I started writing images and
poetic themes, and I think the first thing I remember

(01:46:52):
writing was I was going up to the uptown on
on the street car goes up St. Charles Uptown towards uh.
I think it's two lane University up there, and I
was riding on the car and it was raining outside,

(01:47:14):
and I had a piece of paper and I always
used to carry a pad and paper around within those days.
I wrote, if it rains, I don't care, don't make
no difference to me. I'll take I'm taking that street
car that's going uptown And that was the beginning of
the song. That's kind of how it started. And I
got to the laundry mat I was going uptown to
do my laundry, and uh, I started continuing to write

(01:47:38):
stuff and and wrote some more images. And you know,
I always loved you know, Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn
and the books. And I wrote something about, you know,
building a raft and and you know, floating on the Mississippian.
And I had heard the term black water somewhere and
it really was really in regards to the Mississippi River

(01:48:03):
Old black water. And I don't know whether I heard
a song or a poem or a story, and so
I incorporated that into it as well. And then I
wrote the song and came back and put it together
in the studio, you know, as as we usually do
with things, you know, we kind of either rehearse a

(01:48:24):
little bit and then we go in the studio. And
but a lot of it came together in the studios
as it as it turned out. Um, but I had
I had the lyrics, and I had the melodies, and
I had the guitar changes in the chords and so
on going in and then it was just a matter
of nuance and arrangement these songs. This is almost fifty

(01:48:46):
years ago, and I vividly have a memory of the
song was living in Los Angeles and I went to
live with these guys because my sister moved where I
was living with her and another woman. And I lived
with these guys all of three weeks. But we were
going up in my car. Blackwater came on and different
people in the car. There were three people the car
were seeing different parts and it was a good car stereo.

(01:49:09):
You could hear, you know, the left and right. Whose
idea was to do all that? I had the idea
for singing around like that. I I didn't think it
would go into an acapella section, which I which I love,
and that was really Ted's idea I had. My concept

(01:49:31):
was it was going to go into a you know,
five piece Dixie Land band. So I was going to
take the guitars and everything to a clarinet, uh, you know,
a trumpet, a tube, a band joe, that kind of thing,
and do a traditional dixieland uh kind of an arrangement

(01:49:54):
behind it while singing those vocals. And Ted said, well,
that's a it's a cool idea, But do you mind
if I if I try some other ideas that I
have And I go no, of course not, because by
that time we had recognized Ted's it was a brilliant
producer and that you know, when Ted said something, listen

(01:50:17):
to what he's saying, because you know, it could be
a really good idea. And so um, we decided that
it would be better as an acapella thing, and uh,
I didn't Again, I didn't think it would break down
totally to an acapella because it really I always envisioned
at least some rhythm or something going on, and it

(01:50:40):
works perfectly in that and that doing that, it's really
that street corner thing that I love. That anyway, And
and then Ted brought in um someone to play viola
on it, which I thought was Again I wasn't sure
about the instrument because you know, violin is something I

(01:51:03):
always was familiar with, but viola that's a little darker.
And why why a viola instead of a of a violin?
And and is it going to be a Cajun thing
or what are you gonna do? Well, it turns out
it's really not a Cajun thing. It's really more melodic
and totally different. And Ted had been producing this band

(01:51:24):
Chunky Nova and Ernie, so that is no v I
can't remember how you pronounce her lasting narvo narvo or
something like that, Um playing the viola, and of course
when I heard it, I flipped. I thought, oh my god,
this is so perfect. This is exactly where it should go,
and the right instrument, the right player, every you know,

(01:51:48):
just was like, you know, a dream come true for me. Okay,
the next album once again, my favorite song is yours.
Not that it was the one on the radio, but
well I told you it was Nils fan Dangle. Tell
me the story of Niels fan Dango. Oh gosh. Well,
I was a huge fan of Jack Caro Whac and

(01:52:11):
all those guys had a presence there in San Jose
and the Santa Cruz Mountains with unbeknownst to me, I
always thought they were, you know, San Francisco, the the
Beat generation. And I learned that Neil Cassidy. In fact,
I saw Neil Cassidy at that venue I was talking
about with where I went to see Janis Joplin. There

(01:52:34):
was Neo Cassidy walking around with a washing machine and
some kind of a tube going to some kind of
a gas mask that he had. Just a crazy, crazy artist,
you know, nonconformist guy. Um. But as I read those books,

(01:52:57):
I recognize that Neil Cassidy was this really character. Of course,
and then later on when I began reading, uh, you
know about the electric kool Aid ascid test, and I'm
trying to think, I I learned about Neil Cassidy before
I even read that book. He was a legend in

(01:53:18):
where I lived around the area there as to being,
you know, the just this character, and everybody talked about
everybody seemed all of my a lot of musician friends
and people in the literary community, they all knew Neil.
I never knew him, although I saw him the one time,
but everybody had a story about Neil Cassidy. You know,

(01:53:42):
he talks a mile a minute. He juggles uh uh hammers.
You know what do you call it? Huge? Uh? My
mind's are blank, but you know, sledge hammers. He juggled sledgehammers.
I'm trying to visualize this guy. He takes more speed

(01:54:06):
than anybody and stays up for a week and then
he sleeps for a week. And he could take more
or less d than anyone and drive a bus. And
I was just like, what is superhuman? Crazy artist? You
know what is this? And so um, I'm living in

(01:54:26):
Las Gatis and I'm I'm at a club and I
have a friend that plays in a band, and I
go to see this band and and I hear and
I hear the band, I go, well, these guys are
pretty good and and I'm sitting there and uh, after
they took a break, this guy walks out of the
band who was playing the guitar in the band. He goes, uh, hi,

(01:54:48):
you don't know me. My name is John Cassidy, you know,
and uh you might know my dad, Neil. And I
and uh so, I'm so I'm meeting Neil's son John.
You can be becoming good friends. And and he goes,

(01:55:08):
you need to meet my mom, you know, Caroline, you
need to meet my mom. So at some point. And
my my girlfriend's brother Bill, he's an author, he wrote
an author. He wrote a book called be Nut Content.
And he's a friend of Ken Ken Kesey. And so

(01:55:29):
there's this just you know, serendipity about you know, Neil Cassidy. So, um,
I have this riff and this is one of those
instances where I'm having this song, this you know, musical
thing that I'm thinking, you know, I want to write
something like the Almond brothers. You know, I want to

(01:55:50):
write something with rhythm and fast and you know, bluesy
and and stuff and so uh then I started thinking
about Neil. And the song is fast, but it gets
faster one of the great things about it. And I'm thinking,
this reminds me of Neil Cassikia and so I think,

(01:56:11):
I gotta, I gotta write a song with Neil and
it it's really not about Neil. It's really about about me,
about my experience, but he is part of He is
part of my experience. So um, and I find out
he lived up in the Santa Cruz Mountains where I lived,
and not far from where I lived, and and John
and I were talking, you know, and he's telling me

(01:56:33):
things about him, and then I'm reading about, you know,
where he lived in Las Gados and how he lived
in the Santa Cruz Mountains and what he did and
and and it all kind of came together as a
as a little tribute, if you're will, to Neil Cassidy.
So it's it's about both of us. It's about my

(01:56:53):
love for that area and and I know he loved
that area. He he ended up coming back again and
again to last get us Okay, the line going back
to my mountain, the home Loma Creata. Was that your
life or his both? I think, you know, Loma Priata
is the like, like the highest peak there in the
Santa Cruz Mountains. I think there's a you know, some

(01:57:16):
kind of defense Department of Defense thing up on top
of the mountain, you know. But Loma Priata is kind
of a part of the Santa Cruz Mountains that you know,
a lot of people refer to as thea. It's up
near Loma Prieta. There's a road Lama Priata. There was

(01:57:39):
a train station in Loma Priata and the eighteen hundreds.
You know, it's just kind of an iconic part of
that area. So you know, I lived near there and
and Neo Cassidy lived there at one time as well,
near there, so uh so we both ended up going back.
So okay, needless to say, Tom get it's sick. Michael

(01:58:01):
McDonald comes in, You make a couple of oubs. I
remember buying that album to Drive Cross Country Taken to
the to the Streets and just being shocked like it
was a different band that had some success than the
Living on a Fall line. Did Minute Pie Minute comes out?
And it's it's almost more successful than The Captain and me.

(01:58:21):
Did you have any idea that that album was going
to break through that way? Not at all. No, U. Yeah,
you always hope that the records are going to do well. Um.
I I love the songs on the record, although you know,
there was a lot of tension probably making the record,

(01:58:42):
and I know for a fact that Mike felt very
um ambivalent about about the record itself. You know, he
didn't feel that he'd achieved at the time. Mean, we
talked about it openly, that he he was achieving the

(01:59:06):
music that he had set out to, you know, or
not that he had set out, but he didn't feel
that he had risen to the occasion as much as
as he hoped. And I can't. I kept tell him that, Mike,
you know, it's brilliant. You know, the songs are great.
You did a great job. You're saying you're butt off.
Really you have nothing to be worried about with this.

(01:59:29):
I I go, you know, and I think there was
a little um insecurity in terms of you know, we
had had this success with taking to the streets. Living
on the fault Line is arguably probably our least successful
record beyond our very first album. Although it's one of
my favorite records, it's such an obtuse uh musical venture,

(01:59:56):
you know. Really it's nothing like being we ever did
before or after it, although there are you know, songs
that certainly fit within our you know, scope of creativity.
But it was crazy, you know, experimental record. We did
a lot of experimenting. But minute by minute I I

(02:00:18):
thought it was a great record, and particularly I felt
Mike's songs were of it had risen to another level.
You know, I just you know, it was very mature
on his part, you know, with a song like minute
by Minute, I just felt like, um, with that interesting opening,

(02:00:43):
and that it was really bluesy, the kind of music
that you know, we sort of are known for. He's
singing the blues on that record, and but it was
a little more jazzy, which I at that point in

(02:01:05):
my presence in the band, I was kind of shooting
for a little bit more. You know. We certainly did
some rock and country and all kinds of things, but
I love the kind of jazz tinge things that we
were doing at the time. I'm kind of a you know,
if not a great jazz player at least a real

(02:01:26):
jazz fan. So I liked that we were experimenting in
that direction, and I felt on that record we were
doing that. At the same time, I felt a song
like What a Fool Believes was just a great uh
contemporary pop kind of a of a song that that
still had a legitimacy as a musical uh presentation. I thought,

(02:01:52):
you know, it was really some serious chord structure and
rhythmic properties there and just great. We all participated, we
all saying we all you know, did our usual contributions,
and uh, you know, it was meaningful for me as

(02:02:13):
a as a part of that, you know. And what
where There are songs on records that I never even
played on, and some that I never sang on, not many,
but some, and you always feel a little left out,
you know. But on on that record, you know, we've
all participated, and you know we were we were here

(02:02:36):
and there and everywhere, and I like that. I love
that opportunity, and it's it just makes you feel part
of the part of the whole. And but but I
love the album, you know, as as much as as
as is insecure as we were about it, I really
liked the record. Okay, let's talk about something really important. Okay,

(02:02:57):
you make that album, you make the sub to Queen album,
You cut your hair. You were legendary for your long year.
You cut your hair and then eventually you grew it back.
What's going on there? Well, you know I hadn't cut
my hair in like forever, and so, um, I thought, well,
now that we're firmly established, maybe I can change something

(02:03:23):
and it'll be uh something to talk about. You know,
we're always We had a great publicist at that time,
David Guest. I don't know if you're familiar with David.
David Guests who married Lizamanel. Yeah, I wish he was
still around for you to do an interview with him,
because it would be a real something special. But he

(02:03:45):
was just a madman. But you know, just cutting my
hair was something he could use to to make publicity
out of. So you know, that was a good something
to do, and then you know, it's just something to try.
At that time, I think it was the beginning of um,

(02:04:05):
you know, kind of alternative music too. You know, there
was especially where I lived. I was living in the
Santa Cruz area at that time, and there were a
lot of uh, you know, sort of punk bands going
on and stuff, and I sort of went, well, these
these guys are my friends. You know, I want to
be I want to be a punk too. So I

(02:04:27):
always was a punk anyway, but um so that was
part of it, you know, just kind of wanting to
do something different. And then once I had done it,
I realized, oh, jeez, you know, I got a comb
combe this stuff, this hair, and so then I thought,
you know it, some was so much easier having a
longer hair. All I had to do is brush it,

(02:04:47):
and uh, I have to you know, jel it or
you know, do anything to it. So I kind of,
you know, and I'm you know, I'm really I'm really
not a punk. I'm a hippie. So okay, So you
have this tour with Michael McDonald and Tom and then
COVID happened. Presently you're doing a residency in Vegas. Is

(02:05:10):
it a matter of satiating the fans or as long
as you can sell tickets, Mike will go out with you.
Or is there no plan or is this a one
time deal? What's going on? I don't think there's any plan.
I had mentioned Mike years and years ago, I said,
you know, would you ever want to come and do
a tour with us? Because I think it would be

(02:05:34):
just a great thing for for our audiences. You know,
when we're doing gigs, you know, fans come up to
gonna Have you talked to Mike lately as Mike can
ever come back and play with you guys? And I go,
he does, you know, gigs with us once in a while,
or or we're playing somewhere and he's around, he comes
and sits in. But I don't know, I don't know
if that will ever happen, you know, because Mike likes

(02:05:56):
the way it the way he does it. And so
I mentioned to him one time he had he was
living in uh he had bought a place over in
Maui and we hung out there, used to go surfing
once in a while, and I said, you know, would
you ever feel like coming and doing some kicks with
us and do a tour? I have to do a

(02:06:16):
big tour, you know, just something to go out and
do a few dates and the fans would flip and
he goes, no, I'd love to do that. You should,
We should do something like that. And so we kind
of never did it, you know, we just kind of decided,
and every once in a while I'd see, might go
still up for coming and doing some gigs with us? Yeah,

(02:06:36):
just let me know whenever, you know. And so finally
I went to the guys. I said, you know, Mike
keeps telling me come out and do some gigs with us.
Would that be something that would be cool with you guys?
And John and Tom said yeah, sure, you know, ask him,
you know when when you'd like to do that. And
so that's kind of how it came about. It was
really informal, and and then we just we knew it

(02:06:59):
would be, you know, something cool that people would really like.
And so at that point, we know the pandemic hit,
and I think we kind of that we're on the
cusp of doing it in the pandemic hit, and we said, well,
you know, we have to postpone it, and so we did.
We postponed it, and then as we postponed it, you

(02:07:20):
know more, we kept getting more and more offers people,
Oh yeah, you gotta come here, you gotta come and
play it. You guys should come and play there. So
we ended up playing, you know, booking a lot of
shows and uh, you know, Mikey, sure you want to
do this. He says, yeah, this is this is cool.
You know, well we'll have a lot of fun, and
I don't have to work so hard. You know, it

(02:07:41):
has a lot of work getting out there, you know,
shouldering all that, and and Tommy's had to work hard,
you know, his shoulders most of the most of the
songs for the night. So this has been in some
sense a bit you know, we're gonna be older guys.
It's nice to have a little bit of cushion, you know,
help each other out a little bit so that that

(02:08:04):
you know, it's in some ways a lot of fun
in that regard, just because we we can in what
we've extended the show. You know, we we actually were
playing about a two and a half hour show, almost
three hours. We're down here working in Las Vegas. They
don't want us to play that long. They want people
to get back out on the slot machines. But we're

(02:08:25):
still playing an hour, a little more than an hour,
or I'm sorry, a little more than two hours here.
But it's a good show. We get to do all
the songs that all the hits that people you know
that they got to hear the hits, and and then
we sprinkle in a few of the songs that you know,
we enjoyed playing and some deep cuts and stuff, some
stuff we've never played ever. And then, uh, we have

(02:08:48):
this new album out that we put out and it
was October of last I think was October October. Yeah,
and so we're doing a few songs. We do three
from from the new album. So that's that's really a
treat for us to do some new music as well.
So we're really, uh, I mean, we're having the time

(02:09:09):
of our lives. You know. It's never would have thought
in a million years, fifty years from more than fifty
years from the time we put it together, that we'd
still be out here doing it and having the fun
we're having being able to And I gotta say again
for me that it's it's all selfish. You know. I

(02:09:29):
get to play with great musicians, singing and playing songs
that are you know, iconic in in uh the American
soundscape these days. You know, I mean we never never, again,
I never really would have thought that we would have
ever made this kind of musical impact as as a band.

(02:09:50):
And uh, to be able to be a part of that,
and to me, it's like a you know, it's a
gift for me personally. I get to do work in
this dream band with these fabulous musicians, and our music
is certainly popular music, but it's it's much more complicated,
I think than the average songs that are that are

(02:10:13):
out there on the radio or that have been um
and and you know there are certainly there are other bands,
yes Kansas, you know STEVEE. Dan that write music that
is equally interesting and complicated. But I love the fact

(02:10:34):
that the music is challenging and even after playing songs
for years and years, I still have to think about
what I'm doing and that really makes for a great
enjoyment for me every night. I don't you don't go
out there just taking over. Oh I know this stuff
so well. I have to worry about it. You know.

(02:10:56):
The intricacies of the music are such that you can
play a thousand times and still it's it's challenging. If
you're not paying attention, you're going to screw up. And
so uh, you know, I'm always deep into it, every song,
every everything, all night long. It's just it's it's a
good thing for you know, keeping your brain active. You know,

(02:11:19):
as as you get older, I'm still always thinking. Another
question though, this is very significant in the Doobies career,
is you had this manager, Bruce Cone. He had a
very high profile and a lot of managers do not
so that people in the who are just fans are
aware of him. He's part of the legacy in terms

(02:11:40):
of bringing the band back together for charity things. You
ultimately switch to irving A's Loss operation, and in addition,
in the book, Bruce is really not mentioned. How did
you decide to switch managers and what is the difference
with the new managers opposed to the old. Well, you know,
I'm not really supposed to disclose, you know, Well, we'll

(02:12:04):
talk about what you can. I'm not trying to you know, yeah,
I will because you know, Bruce was a great manager.
I think he did a great job for the band.
We we had, you know, a lot of success with
with Bruce, and you know, he was a great person.
Um at a point there was there were some um

(02:12:28):
disagreements and we've found ourselves in a predicament where we
we had to make a change and it didn't It
wasn't something that I guess I should speak for myself,
and it wasn't something that I that I looked forward
to at the time. Um, but it was necessary. It

(02:12:54):
was an impast that came about and we we had
to make the change. And we I've known Irving really.
I met Irving through Mike McDonald. Mike introduced me to

(02:13:15):
Irving gosh over thirty years ago, forty years ago, something
like that. And naturally everyone is aware of Irving's abilities
and presence in the in the music industry. And when
we when we signed with Irving, it was, you know,

(02:13:38):
something that for myself it was like wow, you know,
he's like this incredible person, both as as a business
entity and as a person in general. He's kind of
a guru to me musicians. And we had reached a

(02:14:06):
point in our um in our career with Bruce where
we've kind of hitting a stagnant point and I think
probably the band was on the verge of just retiring,
you know, and um, we we made the break with

(02:14:31):
Bruce before. We didn't go to Irving and say we
want to make this break. We made the break earlier
on and we kind of managed ourselves for a while
because we could. We were you know, had enough knowledge
at that point to continue with with what we were doing.

(02:14:52):
And we did that for a while. Uh, and then
of course we knew we were we would be out
searching for someone to represent, and we spoke to several
different a lot of different people before we made the decision.
But when we found Irving would be interested, that was
we knew that that would be a great place for us.

(02:15:15):
Just for me again, once again, I kind of speak
for myself on this. I'm a California guy. That the
Irving's business is based in California. UM, I want to
stay within that context. You know, I feel like we're

(02:15:36):
a California band and who thinks they're from New Orleans.
But you know, so it has been really invigorating for
the band to be working with Irving and Kareem Karmi,
who is really our day to day uh management. Kareem

(02:15:58):
works for Stop Management, And it's been, you know, I
don't know, really a shot in the arm. You know,
we're really being more creative, more enthusiastic about what we're doing. UM,
having a vision for the future that we kind of

(02:16:20):
had begun to dissipate a little bit. I think we
kind of you know, it wasn't that we were it
was we were done or anything, but I think we
had felt like, well we're going to probably at least yeah,
I think we probably might have been done as a band,

(02:16:41):
and we would certainly go on to continuing to be
musicians and to write and try to be creative. But um,
there it is. That's really where we ended up. Okay,
you've been making music professionally for over five two years.
You know we had VH one behind the music. The

(02:17:04):
stories are legend of the people being ripped off or
blowing all their money signing bad deals. The Doobie Brothers
has never been a small group. How have you done
financially over the years and where are you at now?
I've certainly made some bad decisions financially. Yeah, it kind

(02:17:25):
of comes goes with the territory. I think musicians or
musicians first, and and that's our weak point. You know,
people can talk you into doing things because they know
you're you know, you're you're busy tuning your guitar. But
I mean I've signed bad publishing deals, and you know,

(02:17:48):
I've had people who have done nothing and then sued
you because they can. And then you have to waste
all your time and on something that really if if
if you went before a jury or something they would
never prevail, but you realized by that time you went

(02:18:10):
to a jury, you'd lose way more money than it
took you to get there. So those things happen. I've
tried to be conservative in terms of of who I
am financially, I don't you know, I don't have private
jets and limousines and a lot of expensive jewelry or

(02:18:36):
you know, just you know, bad bad drug habits and stuff.
You know, I've tried to be aware of uh, you know,
myself and the people around me. Um and I and
I haven't been afraid to work, you know, I Uh,
we're working. Is is good. It's good for all of us,

(02:18:58):
you know, to continue to to do what we love
to do, not take it for granted and just go well,
you know that it used to be fun, more fun.
I'm not gonna I'm not going to subject myself to that.
To me, you just hang in there and do it.
And uh, you know is that old adage if if
you do something you love, it's going to come back

(02:19:19):
to you. And that's that's really the way it's been
for me. Uh, financially, you know, I'm not the richest
guy out there. I'm not the poorest guy out there.
I'm kind of in the middle, and and that's really
where I want to be. I don't I don't. I
don't have this, you know, I don't have I don't
need to make a lot more money. And it's not
about making money, you know, if you can survive, and

(02:19:42):
you know, I don't have a lot of debts, thank god,
you know, I do own my home. Um, that's really
all I want out of life. I have a wonderful family.
I have children, I have grandchildren. That's that's those are
the real Uh, that's the real wealth, you know, and

(02:20:03):
your health. Having your health is health is wealth. So
you know I'm I'm a rich man. Okay, So you
mentioned your wife and the motorcycles earlier. Is this have
were you married before? Is this your one and only wife?
I have had two marriages. My first marriage was to
a gal that I spoke about, her brother, Bill Cradock.

(02:20:28):
Diane was my first wife, great wonderful person. Um, and
we still, you know, are good friends and stay in touch.
I am married to Chris Summer Simmons. We've been married
for thirty two years and got three children and three grandchildren,

(02:20:54):
and UM, It's been a a wonderful relationship we've we
met through motorcycling. We met that Sturgis, South Dakota, the
motorcycle rally there. She came to a fundraiser that we
were the Doobies were doing for the Fight against US

(02:21:15):
Muscular Dystrophy that Harley supports and supported then still support.
And I was the the chairman of the Biker's Fight
Against Muscular Dystrophy and I was given a press conference.
The band was there um to play and I was

(02:21:38):
doing a press conference with the head of marketing for
Harley Davidson talking about, you know, the concert and our
efforts on behalf of the Muscular District Association. And she came.
She had a motorcycle magazine called Harley Women, and she
and her partner came to cover the press conference for

(02:22:00):
the magazine, and I was introduced to the head of marketing,
Clyde Vesseler, and we became friends and have been together
ever since. Chris and I we she she We went
out to Sturgis that night or the next I was

(02:22:22):
that night. We went out Sturgis to the to the
rally and hung out and walked around and bought some
t shirts and just got to know each other. And
we've been together ever since. It's amazing. So, what's the
key to being together when you're on the road, etcetera.
You know, the rock and roll road is it has
littered with divorces. How do you keep together? She has

(02:22:45):
traveled with me a lot from time to time. When
my children were small, they accompanied us on the road.
We took them on the road with us on the bus.
They all of their bunks. They loved that, you know,
camping out with the Doobie brothers on the bus. Um.
So that's helped. Um. We share so many common interests

(02:23:12):
and spend a lot of time together all all the time.
You know, when we're when I'm not working, we're together
when I'm working. She comes, um, and you know, I'm
I love that. I mean, we just have a wonderful relationship.
It's probably the most important thing in my life really

(02:23:33):
is my marriage and my children. So you say, okay,
you're rich because of that. We're rich in information you
having taken the time to tell us all these stories
in depth. Thanks so much for doing this. Thank you, Bob,
Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it, spilling my guts.
You know the other thing. I'm a huge Doobies fan.

(02:23:54):
You know that I have too good two things Don Handley,
the End of the Innocence and the do Be Brothers.
When it's like they're just in my head, they just
click through. And that's not blowing smoke up your grass either.
And on that note, I'll leave it again. Thanks again,
pat Hey, thank you, Bat great talking to you. Until
next time. This is Bob left Sex