Steve Lillywhite

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Barbed Left Sides podcast.
Like yesterday is the Record Producer explordinare Steve Uli Steve?
Hello there, Bob. Now you called me a record producer.
I always say that people over the age of sixty
know what a record is, people over the age of
forty called it a CD, so I was a CD producer,

(00:30):
and then people over the age of twenty only know
as streaming. So I would rather call myself a music producer.
I almost said that, but hey, shows my age. A
second thing. You are speaking to us from Jakarta, where
you now live. Let's start, especially for the ignorant Americans.
Where exactly is Jacarta? Where is Jacartia is? Jakarta is

(00:53):
the capital city of Indonesia. Indonesia is the fourth largest
country on the planet, with about fourth largest by population
after China, America and India. It's about eight Muslim uh
seven or eight percent Christian. The rest are sort of

(01:15):
scattered between Hindus and Buddhists, and they've got a couple
of atheists, of which I am one of them. But
the great thing about it is that that everyone lives
in perfect harmony together, you know, and that's great because
there's not many places on the planet where Christians and
Muslims live in um, you know, in in UH next

(01:36):
door to each other, and they're fine with it. So
how did you end up in Jakara? I was living
not very far from you, Bob, really in just off
sunset in Hollywood, and and I was thinking, there's something
about my life here that I don't know. It was.
I wanted some my my My thing has always been
my enthusiasm for life. And I was I was living

(01:59):
in l A and I you know, I just got
a Latin Grammy for for my album with j one Is,
and you know, things were okay, but I felt I
wanted a new, um, a new challenge in life. So
I was invited to go to Singapore to give a
speech at UH Music Matters, which of course you're familiar with.

(02:21):
And I was so excited. I thought, Southeast Asia, this
is going to be fair. The moment I got to Singapore,
it was like, oh my god, this is like going
to Disneyland. I mean, it was very nice and it
was very clean, but where is the Where's the excitement
of the of the East, you know? Um? Although I
I got some great friends in Singapore, and I love

(02:42):
it now actually, but I I then sort of went
to China and went to to to career and and
and these places. None of them really made me feel great.
And then a friend of mine said there's a band
in Indonesia want an English record producer, and that I
googled them. They were huge over here, and I came

(03:02):
out and did some songs and and I just fell
in love with the place. It's a it's got its
own I mean, I mean for me, I I've learned
so much about a whole different musical culture and that's
really um And and he gave me a new lease
of life. To be honest, I have a great lifestyle here.

(03:23):
I now. I came over here as a music producer
and I now worked for KFC. Okay, before we get there.
Deep the last time we spoke, you were playing the
field and never anticipated getting married again, but reasonly you
did get married. Tell me that story. Oh, it's so

(03:43):
funny you you and I. I don't I don't mean
to be disrespectful to any culture, and I believe it,
you know. And as I say, I am not a
believer in and afterlife or or any you know, I
believe in a higher power than me. But my higher
power than me is basically a group of us. You know.
I don't think there's anything outside, and that's quite a
prevalent view in the West, but over here it's not.

(04:06):
And and my and my girlfriend Um and her parents
felt that it was sort of wrong that we were
living together, and so so I said, okay, well we'll
do a you know, I will convert, not that convert,
because I'm not anything. So it doesn't matter if i'm either,
you know, I'll do what anyone says if it makes

(04:29):
them happy. So I did. I did acquire a Muslim name.
And apparently when you become a Muslim or acquire a
Muslim name, you can choose any name you want. So
guess what I chose, Bob, I am now in Muslim world.
My name is Mohammed Ali. That is the fantastic denly

(04:53):
quite a sense of humor there. Okay, how did you
meet this woman who's now your wife? She is Um,
just just mutual friends and and we got on grades
and she's far too young for me, and it's perfectly
acceptable over here, you know. But but but I've realized, Bob,
the difference between. You know, it's it's not age gap

(05:13):
that that that makes problems. It's the fact that one
of us is male and one of us is female.
I mean, I think that's that's the main difference. It's
nothing to do with how old you are, is to
do with one is male and mine is female. But
we got on great, We've got a great life. Her
family are lovely and yeah, and at the moment, COVID

(05:34):
is sort of bubbling here. But but but you know,
as I say, most of them are Muslims. If if
anyone dies of COVID, they shrug their shoulders and say
it's God's will and they bury people here within twenty
four hours, which is the Muslim tradition. So there's not
really any autopsies to see what they died of as well.

(05:55):
So it's it's you know, but but but the good
news is that people in Asia have been wearing masks
for a long time, you know, so so that there
is no political divide over anything like that. You know,
everyone deals with with mask wearing, everyone deals with you know,
they're all the same. So I wouldn't think of leaving

(06:17):
the house, and no one thinks of leaving their house
without wearing a mask, and we all wash our hands,
and we all get temperature tested if we go anywhere
we go, you know, everywhere there's a guy with a
little temperature thing to to take your temperature. About probably
three or four times a day. I get my temperature done.
I get tested once a week for my job. U.

(06:39):
So you know, it's all good. Okay. To what degree
is there an expact community there? I well, when I
came here six years ago, there was a fairly big
expact community. It's shrunk a bit. And and to be honest,
the oil business was huge even before I came, so
I sort of got the end of that at But

(07:00):
there isn't so much of an expact community. And that
doesn't bother me because I'm not really I don't need
to be with ex pats, you know. I when I
enter a culture, I love to to dive right in,
you know. So I've learned the language to a certain extent,
and I love the food. I love the music, you know,

(07:21):
because the music is my job. I put these CDs
into into KFC and I sell you know, up to
a million CDs every month, So I have to know
what the what what the businesses in Indonesia, So so
you know, there's not I have some expact friends obviously,

(07:41):
but you know, because I don't drink alcohol, so I'm
not one of those people who goes to the bar
and get drunk. And you know, and and and the
typical expact that you hear about in Bali and places
like that. Okay, how long has it been, if always
that you don't drink to ety three years and nine months,

(08:01):
I think, And what was your motivation to start one
day at a time. And by doing it one day
at a time, I've realized I couldn't get to twenty
three years, so you know, it was relatively easy. And
you know, I work, I produced the Rolling Stones, Bob.
You know, I and I lived, and many people didn't live.

(08:22):
So I've you know, I understand the pitfalls and I
I didn't get to a place where my life collapsed
or anything, but I got to a place where I
thought I crossed an invisible line, which was basically, it'll
probably get me eventually. And when you come to that
realization that your lifestyle will will will probably get you eventually,

(08:45):
it sort of takes all the fun out of it.
So I dealt with it in the way that so
many people in our business deal with it, and I
and I love it. You know, my life is a
lot more open now, you know. Um, you think you're
free when you're living that sort of lifestyle, but actually
you're much freer when you're not. Your life becomes a
lot wider and a lot bigger. You're preaching to the converted.

(09:08):
But in this particular case, the KFC thing is still
going on. Explain from my audience the whole period. I
just threw in KFC that. Okay, let me start. The
KFC in Indonesia is a destination restaurant. It's um. It's
because there's no pork and beef is is not really

(09:32):
that that that prevalent here. Chicken rules, and chicken here
is not pumped full of full of chlorine. It's not
washed in chlorine. It's not pumped full of um steroids
and stuff to make it big. So they're really small,
they're really tasty, and chicken here is great and KFC
franchise has really become the thing here. People love KFC

(09:56):
and honestly, I I love it here. It's it's exactly
how you remember it as a kid, you know, when
you first heard it and it was great. But you
now go and have KFC and it's like you walk
in and it just smells stale of stale. You know,
it's not good. Whereas here we have you know, there's
coffee shops in the in a lot of the KFC s,

(10:18):
they're very clean. Our flagship restaurants have stages where there's music.
And basically I didn't start it but my um, but
my predecessor decided to start bundling c ds with chicken. Now,
this started to take off and when record stores closed,
it was the only place people could get their CDs.

(10:40):
So it's become a sort of tradition when you go
to KFC, people buy CDs. So it's a very prestigious
thing to have your CD for sale at KFC because
you know, I I say, pre COVID, I would my
My biggest month sale was one point one million in
a month post COVID. I'm at about five fifty, so

(11:04):
it's it's but it's improving again. And I have ten well,
I have eight c d s now at any one time,
and two DVDs because I felt that I can give
a you know, I do a DVD for kids and
a DVD for family, um and and you know it's
it's nothing to do with my taste. Producing was always

(11:24):
to do with my taste. That was how I became
a producer, because you know, it was all too I
would never do anything for money. I did it because
whether I liked it or not. But you know, now
I'm I'm getting older. I have other people who helped me,
but it's not my taste. I choose things for all
the family, you know. I I put a CD in

(11:44):
for the teenage girls because you know, they always love
these these these soppy you know, and it's great fun.
And I've got this, you know. And I'm enthusiastic about
my job, and being enthusiastic about what you do in
life may exit so much more exciting. And and you know,
I've I've I've always been lucky. I've never had a

(12:06):
job because the definition of a job is you can
complain about your job. That's one of the things about
having a job. What I've always had is a vocation. Now,
a vocation is great, but you're never allowed to complain
about it because you would not be as as enthusia
you would not be true to that that that young

(12:28):
seventeen year old boy who walked into a recording studio
full of wonder. I think the sense of wonder is
something that used to abound in the music business, and
that sense of wonder is something that now, you know,
you don't see that with the young artists. It that
there's the sense of innocence and wonder. You you know,

(12:50):
homogenization is a great thing, but maybe not for truly
great creative people. Okay, let's flow down for a minute.
You're so CD s a KFC. A lot of questions. First,
can you buy a CD at a place other than KFC,
not the CDs I sell. The CDs I sell. We

(13:11):
have a we have an exclusive deal with our artists
and they come in and we we asked them to
do certain not promotional things for for KFC, but we
asked them to to to do some store visits. Uh
and the you know, there's no branding involved. It's not
like they sell our CDs and they have to hold

(13:32):
KFC and say I love it. I mean, to be honest,
most of them do really love KFC, so they feel
they don't mind going to a store. But the idea
is go to the store, do a little meet and
greet with some fans speak to the staff. Get you know,
it's to keep the staff. You know, take a couple
of photos with the staff. So the staff two things

(13:53):
keeps them happy and it and it's um and it
makes themselves the seat, you know, it makes them want
to sell the CD more. And it's it's all around
the glimp thing. Okay, what is the company you work for?
What's the name of that? Well, my my company is
called jms R Jagonian Music and Sport Indonesia. But it

(14:14):
doesn't really matter. It's just a it's a shell, you know,
it's a it's a part of KFC Indonesia. But you know,
my my boss owns all the franchises of KFC UM
and KFC and and unlike other big worldwide corporations like
Disney have such you know, you cannot do certain things

(14:37):
worldwide with Disney. With KFC, they've been very good because
they've allowed my my boss and his team to to
to tweak the the KFC the product for the Indonesian market.
So most people eat KFC with rice. Um. They they
love spicy food here, oh my god. Everything you know,

(15:00):
they the chili is is so they do the spicy KFC,
so you know, and that's what I like. Uh, and
they're always doing you know. But I'm not here too
to promote KFC in general. But I would say, if
anyone does visit Indonesia, it's a trip to KFC is
it's not as outrageous as a trip you know, it's

(15:21):
not as weird as a trip to KFC in the West.
And in fact, just very quickly, a friend of mine
heard about this when I was in New York working
on the last U two album. He said to me, Steve,
do you think he was a journalist? He said, Can
I pitch your story to the New York Times? I said, yeah,
but I don't think they he said, oh my god,

(15:42):
they're dying to do this. So I was actually on
the front cover of the New York Times Arts section
at the weekend, holding a bucket of KFC and you know,
telling my story about what I do. Now KFC, big
worldwide corporate is called the Young Organization and believe it

(16:04):
or not, and you know, they have never been on
the front page of the New York Times in their life.
So all of a sudden they got like this, Q
dos that you know? Um, so so they are very
proud of of the Indonesian KFC on on the worldwide basis. Okay,
a few questions in terms of landscape of music, KFC

(16:25):
has what percentage of the overall market or how many competies?
Well pretty much ninety. Well that since KFC did it,
other chicken outlets have done it. Their California Chicken Company
and is one and there's one other one but there,
I mean, we have six hundreds at six hundred and

(16:47):
fifty outlets. They only have about two or three hundred,
and they they don't, you know, they're kept there. They're fried.
Chicken is like a level below ours, you know. So
it's it's it's more like American case. So we have Okay,
So what you're saying essentially is there are no record stories.
Everybody buys their music and a a chicken store, yes or

(17:10):
they yeah, it's I mean a lot of people what
YouTube and stuff. So my job is becoming harder and harder.
And what I do is, you know, I'm trying to
and to be honest, I'm selling them something that they
can get on YouTube for nothing, you know. So so
I'm forever trying to think of new ways to bundle
it all together. Like compilations of styles of music, and

(17:33):
you know, because playlist mentality is is happening more and more,
even if you don't subscribe to any streaming service. The
idea of the album is I once wrote to you, Bob,
and you ignored it. But I actually in the West Side,
I read it. I get replied everything because I know, no, no, don't.
He was slightly flippant, which is no, you always do.

(17:55):
You know, you're you're very good to me. But I
actually had this, this this idea that the only thing
that will save the album in the West is the
legalization of marijuana, because you know, you know, when you
were fourteen or fifteen and you had your first joint
and you listen to Dark Side of the Moon, there
was a whole new thing happening, all right, And I think, maybe, if, if,

(18:22):
that's the only possible thing that will save the album
is the legalization, But I don't think it probably will
because the technology has no need for albums, and technology
will always lead the art form. Okay, what is the
price of v CDs? You said they are They're priced
at a point where Indonesia, you know, people here are

(18:44):
very poor, so they're like five bucks each okay, and
to what But it doesn't. Doesn't everybody have a morbile phone.
That's why my job is getting more and more difficult.
But yes they do, but they have cars and they
and and well they do, but it's more the a

(19:05):
lot of people have have well, yes they have a
mobile phone. What you're talking about, Bob left sets is
a smartphone because a mobile phone will not play music.
A smartphone is the one that plays music. And yes,
a lot of people have smartphones. But but but the
problem is is the broadband. There's not much broadband and

(19:26):
there's no five G or uh. You know a lot
of the rural areas don't have very good reception. So
you know, it will all change in the future. And
Spotify numbers are going up here. But you know, I'm
I'm getting to the point where I mean, I'm I'm

(19:46):
enjoying my job, but it's not gonna last forever. So
I'm I'm you know, and okay, let's just assume it
ends somewhere in the next five years based on your
need for excitement. Will you then continue to work or
will you get into lifestyle sale under the sunset? Now,
i I've actually just invested in a house. I've just

(20:06):
bought a house in Bali, so I I shall, I
shall probably move to Balley. But you know, I'm also
writing a book and I do a sort of U
and I've written my own life story in a stand
up form and actually it's with music and I've you know,
it's two It's a two hour show with a with

(20:27):
a gap, with a break at at one hour, and
it it goes. You know, it's just a lot of
self effacing stories and I play music. I've got about
twenty segments of music where I paid little bits of songs.
I tell funny stories, I tell sad stories. Um. And
I had this all done. I did one show in Jakarta,

(20:51):
which was fantastic, and then I my plan was to
take it around locally Asia, Southeast Asia and then go
around the odd with it doing my show and because
a lot of people when they heard about it said
oh I come to see that, you know, and then
COVID hit So everything is. It was about a year

(21:12):
ago in February that I did my first show. Um,
and I've still got the script, you know, I've got
it all ready to go and it's okay, this beg
this begs a question. You've made your rep on the
other side of the glass, Yes, sir, So did you
always want to be a performer, your reluctant performer. Did

(21:33):
the light bulb just go off? No? I never wanted
to be a performer, and I never even wanted to
be a teacher, because I I always, um, I always
subscribed to the idea that those who can't teach, you know,
and and in fact, actually my kids school in New
York there, their teachers at the school had a band

(21:54):
and they actually called the name of the band those
who Can't, which is which is a great name for
a band, right, especially if you are all teachers. They
called it those who Came. But I've subsequently come to
the conclusion that that if people like me who actually
um who who who have been both old school and

(22:19):
modern recording techniques, you know, I have something I can
give back to young people. Uh, And so I I
quite And also my story is it's quite funny. I mean, look,
you know you went to see the Jeff Emmerick. You know,
it was very good, but it was all a little worthy.
You know. Yeah, he was he he was fantastic, but

(22:42):
you know, and and his work speaks for itself. But
but I'm you know, I'm one of those produced. There
are a lot of brilliant producers in the world. But
I'm a people person and I think, um, you know,
I'm I'm pretty good at speaking and and I enjoy
it and that's the sort of thing that gives me

(23:03):
more excitement at the moment. So okay, yeah, we'll have
to wait for covid M. Let's go back to the beginning.
What kind of circumstances did you grow up? In? White,
middle class um post war possibly the greatest example of
socialized life the planet has ever seen. Um, you know,

(23:27):
I mean everything. You know, it was socialism in the
greatest way. It was. The BBC is an institution that
I will defend forever because it has it has been
impartial through various different governments. Musically, it was completely um.

(23:51):
You could not bribe anyone at the BBC to get
your song on the radio, you know. So we got
the best of what America had to offer. You know,
I we got the best American music. Now it sounds
like I'm being snobby. How do you do find the best?
I never ever heard Kansas, you know, I had funny Okay,

(24:14):
let's go back to what did your parents do for
a living? Oh, my god, My my dad was an accountant.
My mom was a housewife. You know how many how
many kids in the film? Oh, there's three of us.
I'm the eldest. Never had any chance. I never finished
high school, let alone go to college. I I managed
to get a job in a recording studio at the

(24:36):
age of seventeen as a tea boy and U and
even then I wasn't there was no you know, I
was just one of those people that punk rock was
my was my entry point, really, you know, because it's
you know, to be a producer. It's like a catch

(24:56):
twenty two situation. You know, you need the work to
get the hit. But the only way you get the
hit if you have the work. So you know what
comes for the hit or the work, you know. And
and I was lucky that there was this sort of
wave called punk rock. And we don't get waves of music,
you know, as you've always said, it doesn't mean so

(25:18):
much anymore. And when it doesn't mean so much, you
don't get waves. Um. But punk rock was a wave
in the UK and on the eastern West coast of America.
It was only when Green Day came many years later,
that that punk thing actually traversed to Middle America. Funnily enough,
the sex pistols in the clash never meant anything in

(25:39):
Middle America. Um, but I wrote this wave. And I
always used to say, what better than having bands who
couldn't play than having a producer who couldn't produce? And
so that was my that was my thing. And of
course I got a hit record. And once I had
a hit record, um in a September nine band called

(26:04):
Susie and the Banshees with a song called Hong Kong Garden. Um,
it was like, oh my god, I've got a hit. Now.
You can look at your life in two ways. Once
you have a hit. You can either go, aren't I brilliant?
I can turn turns into gold? Or what I did?
It was like, oh my god, I've had a hit.

(26:25):
I can just work with really good people. That's how
I looked at it. You know. So because I was
a fanboy, you know, so I and you know, when
you're very young, you have many many people you were saying,
oh what boy a fan boy. I was just loved music,
and I was very opinionated, and I and nowadays, when

(26:47):
I ever I talked to young people and I'm either
interviewing someone for a job or you know, I can
learn a lot from them. If I say, you know,
what sort of music do you like? And if a
young person says, I like all sorts, no good? You
know you shouldn't like all sorts of music. You should
be opinionated when you're young, because when you get older,

(27:08):
you you start to understand that everything has a value.
But when you're young, that that that that narrow minded focus.
You know, you're like a boxer going into the ring.
You know, you you're focused on your career. And that's
what I was. So I I just you know, I thought,
what God EXTC I love extec, I'll go and produce them.
And you know, I wanted to work with the creative,

(27:31):
talented people. I had no ego that said I wanted
to turn your rubbish act into a great act. So
you know, every time I, you know, I had a hit,
I would be offered all these bands who sounded like
the band that I produced. You know, I've got nothing
against a flock of seagulls. But just because I produced

(27:52):
you two doesn't mean I should have produced the alarm
or a flock of seagulls, you know, and I love
them both, but it's just like, why so I used
my success with one artist to expand, which is why,
you know, at the height of that sort of era
in n I went off and produced Joan Arma Trading
and Peter Gabriel, which had nothing to do with punk rock,

(28:14):
you know, but it was like, Okay, I've had success,
these are creative, great artists, are going to work with them. Okay,
you're talking about being opinionated. Needles to say, I am opinionated,
and especially now and you're old, okay, but now more
than ever, people don't like opinionated people. So when you
were growing up, were you remember the group or people

(28:37):
either love you or hear you? What was it like? No,
you're you're, you're you're You're supposed to be opinionated when
you're young, you know, you're you know. I would never
let guitarists bend notes because that was not you know,
that was from that era before us. That was from
the sort of you know, even though I produced Peter
Gabriel that was sort of Genesis and all those the

(28:57):
Eagles they all did, you know, it was long boring
guitar solos. It was not what we wanted, short, sharp,
angry songs, you know, And of course that's dismissing everything
that Dave Gilmour ever did by saying, don't bend notes. Now.
Of course I love all sorts of things like that,

(29:17):
so you know, um, and actually no, I'm not as
a pinion. You know you are, and you're very but
you are more the exception, Bob, because I think I
hated the Eagles growing up, I hated the Eagles. Now
I actually have Hotel California on a playlist. I listened
to it for fun. You know, who would have thought, okay,

(29:40):
why and how did you get a gig as a
tea boy For those people don't know that essentially the
lowest below you low even a second engineer. And sometimes
what drove that I drove that fear. Fear has been
my driving force throughout my career. Fear has been the
thing that has has has kept me not complacent. Fear

(30:02):
has been the thing that uh enables me to do
to overachieve, because I know if I don't overachieve, my
natural talents will only enable me to flip burgers at McDonald's.
I mean seriously, because I know I didn't go to college.

(30:23):
I didn't even finish high school. I didn't, you know,
so when I got that job in a recording studio,
it was like my, my, my. It was fear joined
with wonder. You know. It's that wonder of of of
the of of what it was, the thing that you
would do. And I still have that, you know, those
moments and this doesn't happen so much anymore because you know,

(30:46):
records are made by committee, records are made one person
at a time. You know, it's just and the reason
for that is is technology. Because technology enables you to
do that. So and I've said this before and I
always say this technology will always lead the art form.
The people who make the technology they don't know how

(31:07):
the artists are going to use it, because artists take
the technology and they abuse it. That's how it should be.
You know, That's how distortion came about. You know, distortion
didn't come about from the from the from the people
who invented amts. It came about through people turning it
up to loud. Okay, but why did you get a job.

(31:28):
What was your motivation to work in a recording studio
to begin with, because I didn't want to fucking flip Burgers.
I talked to you, did you have that incredible sense
of wonder about music? Always? When I was a bass
player from the age of twelve, I I, um, you know,
I was a musician and I loved playing the bass.

(31:51):
And then when I got the job in the studio,
my bass playing became less and less and and now
I don't even own a basse, which is a bity
because I do love just that love just sitting there
playing it. You know, do you do you have natural
music ability? I mean, I know after the Beatles, everybody
I knew bought a guitar, but it was clear who

(32:11):
could do it. I mean the story I always tell
I was playing with a friend who is now we're
going to change keys, and I said, I'm out. Okay,
So do you have natural ability at music? Yeah? I
think I do. I think I do, but but so
many people do. I have a great analogy about about
about the way the music businesses. Now. You know, there's

(32:32):
because there are the gatekeepers are I mean, you can
argue there's no official gatekeepers anymore. You know, the gatekeeper
is just and an artificial algorithm based on people, you know.
But the way I've always looked at it, I've I've
I've looked at it. It's like the you know, the
New York Marathon. You know, there's forty people running, and

(32:55):
I would never stop those forty people running. You know,
they doing it for fun, right, that's the music business.
Everyone's running for fun. There are on a fun run.
I would never stop them. But the ones I'm interested
in are those five Ethiopians at the front. Those are
the ones I really because they want to win. Those
are the ones I want to help with their career.

(33:17):
And that's how I see. You know, my job is
to is to always recognize those five Ethiopians at the front.
You get the analogy, don't you. Boy? Of course, how
good an engineer are you? I was never a great engineer.
I was. I was a taypop. But you know, my
instincts were always just too but maybe not being taught,

(33:41):
not being a very good learner or a slow learner.
I tended to to only learn the things that I needed,
and I think that's probably a good thing. And I've
a lot of people who are very clever, they don't
they learn everything. And I could never learn everything. I
just had this I had this thing where I I

(34:03):
was just clever enough to learn the things that I
needed to learn, even though I didn't know what they
were at the time. It was just a natural thing,
you know. So how did you decide you were going
to be a producer? What what pushed you internally other
than fear. Well, my my my recording studio. My boss
allowed us at weekends to take in if the studio

(34:26):
was empty, we could take in our own projects, you know,
and just to go and learn how to become a
better engineer. So the first project I took into the
studio was was a new wave band who were called Ultravox.
Now this was the Ultravox, the first version of Ultravox,
who had a different singer actually and a guy called

(34:48):
John Fox. They were much more like Punky Roxy music.
And and I did their demos in the studio and
it was through those demos that they got a record
deal and and uh, and that's how I got my
first ever production, you know. Okay, so when the world

(35:12):
opened after Susie, uh, the next record was what Well,
So Susie came about through Johnny Thunders actually from the
New York Dolls. I produced his album, which a lot
of people still like, but that wasn't a hit, So
Susie was the first hit. Then I did UM, I
did XTC, I did a bank called the Members, I did.

(35:34):
I did a lot of punk rock in those days,
and oh well, I didn't do I seem to remember
that by the time I got the call for you too,
I'd already I was already a name for sure. I mean,
I was you two second well good needles to say
you could close anybody in a meeting. But for yourself

(35:55):
at that time, why you were you? What skill were
you bringing into the studio that major projects for success? Well,
as I say it was it was my enthusiasm, it
was my being. Okay. I remember the first time I
ever saw my name in in in uh In in
the Enemy, I think it was or melody Maker. I

(36:20):
was called omnipotent, and I thought this was fucking great.
And then I looked it up and I realized it
wasn't actually that that great word, but I didn't know
what it meant. Um. Basically, I would go to the
Marquee Club, I would go to all these gigs. I
was around town looking at these bands, and even though

(36:42):
you know, not all my records were hit, but but
you know the Johnny Thunders album and the Ultravox album,
and the and and the Susie and the Banshees album,
and then the Members and XTC and there were more.
There were more. I'll have to okay with I'll be
I'm not. I don't need an exhaustive list. But when

(37:03):
you went into the studio, needless to say, can't some
come with the songs written, Some can play their instruments,
some do not. So what was your skill in taking
the raw talent of the performer and ending up with
a recording? My skill, I will instincts I I and

(37:25):
I like to think that when I I've always said
there are two sorts of producers. Let's let's just take
I'll say let's say, well, I won't say you too,
I'll say Dave Matthews Man, for instance. You know this
came way way further down the line, But there's two
sorts of producers. One will look at Dave Matthews Man.
They'll see Dave Matthews He's the guy. He's like, obviously

(37:49):
the main guy. I'll go and and work on him.
I'll work that he you know, I'll make sure he
me and him have this this this thing. I'm the
other sort of producer. I look at the band and
I go, Okay, where are the wheat links. Where's the
person who's not feeling that confidence. I'll go and talk

(38:10):
to them, because I know that the Dave or the
or the Bonno or whoever will always you know, they
don't need to ingratiate myself with them. They have the ego,
they're fine. But maybe that bass player, he's quiet. He's
the one that the rest of the band are slightly
mocking or something like. You know, Mike my I've become

(38:31):
so good at this, Bob. I can almost tell who
plays what instrument in a band just by meeting them,
because I see this sort of you know, I love
the village. I love the the infrastructure of of of
a of a working of a working organism, you know
I I see it not as a Okay, So you

(38:54):
find the weak link and you work with them. How
other than they're one particular skill, How does that trans
lead to the others and make the project better? Well,
they don't need the others don't need well, because you
are only as strong as your weakest linked right, So
if I work on the weakest linked, then the whole
thing will become better. Um, and you know one thing

(39:18):
I didn't. It's just common sense, you know, for me.
And this sounds fucking stupid to say, but a lot
of people don't think of this, is that a record
has to get better the longer time you work on it.
And that sounds stupid, well, of course, but so many
people their records go off courts. You know how many

(39:38):
people have you met After the first week they go, oh, Bob,
the album sounding great. We want a great drum sound.
And then after two months they're they're saying, Bob, something's
gone wrong. They're pulling their head, they're pulling their hair out.
And you know, my job as the producer is to
see that and to realize when that's happening. You know,

(39:59):
it's your I always say, it's like I'm the I'm
the captain of the ship. My job is to steer
that ship safely to port. Now, the Titanic was a
fucking great ship, but look what came to that. Let's
assume they come into the sort with a song. Might
you say, need another verse, change a lyric? Would you

(40:19):
go into those specific creative elpments. But of course I would.
But I go back to what I said earlier. I
wanted to work with the best people. You know, I'm
not a Svengali. Well, i am in my own way,
but I'm not this, you know, it's it's not for me.

(40:41):
I'm not like a film director. A film director is dictatorial,
you know. A record producer is all about collaboration. And
if I feel when I meet them and see them live,
that there's enough wiggle room between the creative and me.
You know, I'm not the sort of producer who who

(41:02):
is proud to say I had to fire the drummer.
Who the funk am I to say I had to
fire the drummer that band? Maybe the drummer his job
was not just the drumming. His job was to tell
the singer your ship write better lyrics. You know, did R. E.
M Ever have a hit record after Bill Berry left? No?

(41:24):
They had the best drummers in the fucking world, but
they never had a Yet. There's a reason why the
greatest musician is not always the best, because it's the
infrastructure of the band and what their job is. And
who am I to say, you know, fire the drummer.
You know, it's that's that's my punk ethic. Still, would

(41:47):
you ever bring in ringers? Would you ever bring in
studio players to play parts? And maybe the part of
you know, completely of one of the band members, Na
Mick Jagger brought in Anton fig to play the bass drums,
because I mean, Charlie Wats is fantastic and his and
his and his snare drum is always great. But but

(42:08):
but this was in the days where you you know,
there was no sampling or anything, so we literally brought
in a bass drum to um to to to to
replace the bass drum. But you know, his foot was
sometimes not so good. But in general, no, I would
you know, I have the patience of a saint. I
mean I will sit with someone for hours and hours

(42:30):
and hours to get the performance, and I will train
them and I will make sure that they can do it.
So before I enter a project, I would make sure
that I can get an acceptable performance out of this musician.
You know, so replacing a member of the band has
so many unforeseen consequences. You know, you are not you're

(42:54):
destroying the weakest link. You are not building the weakest
link on left sets, Okay, do you have a preference
and what's the difference between working with a solo act
and a band. Well, my history just speaks itself. I'm
I've had many more. I'll veer towards bands much more
because for me, a band has this thing that that

(43:17):
you know, I mean. But even when I work with
with solo artists, I like to make, you know, a
band idea. I like to I like to to make
it seem like a band, you know, because that that
that's But that's in the days of working with musicians
who interact with each other. Now people don't do that.

(43:37):
Is it's just a different world. I'm not I'm not
saying the world was better before or worse. You know,
I'm not a ludder when it comes to that, because
technology will always lead the artful. Okay, so you say
you were driven by fear at the beginning. You've worked
with literally the biggest acts in the world. They don't
get any bigger. Do you have any fear you're meeting

(44:01):
anybody now? And would you still have anxiety and fear
making a record with anybody? Or have you've done so
much success, so much confidence of the anxiety and fear
of disappeared. No, no, no, I still have the fear.
I'm not really making records at the moment. I mean,
I've sort of retired without even knowing it, weirdly, you know,

(44:23):
I haven't been into the student, you know. I don't.
I don't want to be one of those jobbing producers,
you know. I I there's other things in life to
do than you know. And I've done it for forty years.
And as I say, my enthusiasm coupled with my fear.
That's I mean, it's it's this sort of balance between
fear and enthusiasm. Um, and as my fear has slightly gone,

(44:46):
so is my enthusiasm. When I and I moved to
Indonesia and and my you know, it's just a whole
new set of music to learn, you know. And I
know all about their local styles of music. I know
they're their stars. I know that gossip. You know. I'm
completely you know, I love it. It's it's a whole
new thing for me. But but but yeah, fear, fear

(45:12):
is something, but yeah, and my enthusiasm is Okay, let's
go to some of these famous records. How did you
get the job with Peter Gabriel and What was it
like recording that record? Oh, well, Peter Gabriel was That
was the first time I had been I mean, it
was so left field that when I got the core
from his manager, I actually thought it was one of

(45:34):
my friends, um telling me, uh to, you know, making
a joke, you know, because Peter Gabriel was definitely from
the the the era that we were all um rebelling against,
you know, because you know he came for you know,
he wore a horse's head and you know, it's like

(45:56):
Genesis were considered that the hippiest, dippiest, you know, boarding
school type type music, you know. But but then I
realized it wasn't someone phoning me up for a joke.
So I had the meeting with Peter, and when we talked,
it was like, wow, he sounds like he was you know,
he was into the sort of records that I've made,

(46:18):
um he And there was one thing that he said
that really got me. He said, Steve, I want to
make an album without any symbols, you know, and and
because of the sorts of person I am and my enthusiasm.
I mean, there's some producers who would go that's ridiculous.
You can't make a run record without symbols, you know.

(46:39):
But for me I and I see a problem and
see that as a challenge, you know. So it was
like my enthusiasm clicked in immediately and I thought, Wow,
no symbols, that means I can do this, I can
do that, and I can you know, And and that
got me enthusiastic, the fact that he wanted to do
things that were not like normal, you know. So even

(47:02):
though that album was you know, when you listen to
it now, it sounds like one of the darkest you know,
it's songs about being in the mental hospital and you know,
very very worthy songs about Steve Beaco, which I thought
was about Phil Silver's by the way, umkay, you know

(47:22):
I wondered. Okay, but let's let's stop for a second.
When you work with Peter Gabriel, not only did he
have experience, he's opinionated himself. So when you work with
somebody like cam Or Jagger and Richard et cetera, do
you your roles shrink or does it stay the same? Oh? No,
I am you know you have to be if you've

(47:42):
worked with so many different look. I have read interviews
with my contemporaries who have so many set rules it
absolutely astounds me. I have no rules. I mean, my
job is the captain of the shape. As I said,
it's you know, I mold myself off to what the
artist wants. Keith Richards wanted to start work at midnight,

(48:05):
one o'clock in the morning. That's what time we came
to the studio. I mold myself around what the artists needs,
and my my job is to work out how to
get the best record within the parameters of what they
you know. And also they must love their album. I mean,
you know, they must. They at the end of the day,

(48:28):
they must. It's their arts and they always you know,
my artists always think of it as art. You know,
they're artists, so they have to love the end results.
And my job is to help them realize their vision.
You know. As I say, I'm the worst producer. If
someone says to me, Steve, I'll do whatever you want,
I don't want that. I want someone to come up

(48:50):
to me and say, Steve, I've got these ten ideas.
I say, Okay, give me the ten ideas. Take a
bit of that, take a bit of that. That one
there that's great, but expanded, do this and then you know,
um and uh yeah, that's that's that's how I do it.
I need you know, I I can help grow the seed.

(49:14):
I am not the seed. You know my job. Let's
let's go back to Gabriel fan. I was not a
big Genesis fan before that. There were so many prog
rock bands, couldn't be into all of them. But I
certainly was involved from the beginning of the solo career
as a fan. Uh you know. I worked with Ezrin,
then he worked with what's his name from King Grim's

(49:34):
and Fripp, then he worked with you a couple of things. Hey,
how did you feel did you think you should have
been hired for the next record. Secondly, don't forget I
have an American perspective. In America, the buzz on his
solo career was not high. Two albums that come out
Atlantic dropped him, came on Mercury, which is the worst label. However,

(49:57):
and I know all the records. I firm he believed
that is his best work. So when the record came
out and it didn't immediately shoot to success, did that
did you know how good it was? And how did
you feel that he moved on from you? We loved
making that album. I mean we it was in a
way we had this, especially as Colodna used to come

(50:19):
to the studio and because Colodna signed him to Atlantic
and eventually dropped him and then re signed him to Geffen,
as you know the story. But but but you know, uh,
I mean, you know, we we we were. He used
to come over from l A. And when when we
knew he was coming, we would turn the air conditioning

(50:41):
up so so high in the studio that it was
fucking freezing just about ten minutes before he came into
the studio. So when he came in, you could see
him flinch because he was like Mr. California guy, and
it was so cold, and but we pretended that it
wasn't that cold. So we sat him down and played

(51:04):
him the songs and we were freezing, but we wouldn't
say it because we wanted that, you know, and it
wasn't and it was childish, you know, but but we
wanted our thing, you know. And Peter was fearless, you know,
it was like, you know, he wanted it to be

(51:25):
different and m and we knew we had something good there.
But but but but it came out of joy, even
though as I say the album is very dark. Um
and I no, I never thought about working with him again.
In those days, there was you know, there were so
many records, and I never thought it was my job
to stay with an artist forever. You know, you can,

(51:47):
you know, you can argue that the George Martin model.
But I liked the idea In those days. I used
to think that I can work with so many different artists.
It's why shouldn't you you know. I had sort of
idea with you too. I I after every single album
of theirs, I said no, I don't want to do
the next one, and they said, okay, but can you

(52:09):
do the next one? I went all right then, Literally
I gave them an out after every time I worked
with them, and they always asked me back for the
first three. Um. But but no. With with Peter, it
was yeah, it was that that air conditioning. That's a
true story. We used to do it just for fun, really,
because we wanted because you know, Colodner's idea of the

(52:33):
best record in the world was the one that sold
the most, you know, I mean that was literally his
way of thinking, and and we tended to disagree with that.
Graciously we disagree with that, Mr Colodna, the best record
in the world is not the one that sells the most.
Now I can understand what he was talking about, but

(52:54):
I as it was such a a a a an
idea that he that he when he said that, it
was like, how can you say that? It was so
against what we were doing for us? You know that's
that that you know we immediate I immediately lost any
respect for him. Okay, how did you en they're poking

(53:17):
up with you two? With you two? They that there
was you remember Factory Records. Factory Records. Tony Wilson was
a good friend of our What a lovely man, What
a lovely lovely literally the most educated man in the
music business. You would walk through me and Chester he
would point stuff out. It's like unbelievable. I would just

(53:38):
be quiet. He was a fan of information, Yeah he was.
He was brilliant. And of course he had Factory Records,
which had Joy Division. Now Joy Division had a producer
called Martin Hannett and Martin Hanne. He was all parts
of Joy. He was almost like a fifth member of
Joy Division. He he was their sound. He put them
all to He was a bit older than them. Obviously,

(53:58):
and so you two when they were looking for their
first producer, they chose Martin Hannett. And you know in
those days when you and and Martin Hannet went and
recorded one single with them and they loved it, song
called the eleven o'clock TikTok, and they asked him to
produce the album. Well, what happened was that Ian Curtis

(54:22):
from Joy Division committed suicide and Martin Hannitt um decided
it really affected him in a bad way. And and
you know, because he was like really close close to
Joy Division, and so he said to YouTube that he
couldn't produce their album. So you two then went back
to their list of producers. A number two on the

(54:45):
list was Steve lily White. So I got this is
a funny story. I got flown to the West coast
of Ireland to see a gig and I was told
I would be met by a Mr McGinnis. Now in
those days, in those days, if you are if you
in you're met by a Mr McGinnis at Cork airport.

(55:08):
I was really expecting a guy on a tractor with
with straw out of his ears. You know, get to
the airport, come off, Hello, Steve, Paul McGinnis here as
you know him, right, And I, oh, hope Paul, and
come with me. So we got in his car and
we drove forty minutes to the gig, during which point

(55:31):
he started to play the worst sounding demos I had
ever heard. I mean, honestly, they were just so embarrassing.
But for him, he was in salesman mode. You know,
Paul McGinnis is a fantastic salesman. And he never once
came to the student. He never gave an opinion on

(55:52):
his artist's art because for him, why would he question
his artists art if he was their manager. They do
the art, he does the business, you know very much.
He was that sort of a manager who I as
a producer I love because he never questioned what we
were doing in the studio. So anyway, he was like

(56:12):
selling me on this terrible sounding demo in the car
on his terrible shitty car speakers, you know, and I
was my heart was starting to sink um. And then
we we we got to the gig and it was
in a in a in a school hall, and literally
all the boys were on one side and all the
girls were on the other side, and and I'm and

(56:34):
I'm I'm standing in the middle, and I have only
twenty three years old, but I feel old, you know. Um.
So the band came on straightaway into I Will Follow,
and I went, oh great, you know. So then it
was a good gig. And there was something, you know,

(56:54):
like everyone in those days, was that there's something about
this band, you know, So we went to meet them
stage afterwards. They had the personalities of teenage boys, which
is basically mumbling, you know, but when they were on stage,
they were not. You know that Borrow very much became
out of his body, you know, he he um, he would.

(57:19):
He's very able to get to a place that other
people get to only with drugs, you know, that that thing.
I mean, you know, drugs can get you to a
very creative place. But I mean, I'm sober. I told
you twenty three years I only got my Grammars after
I got sober, and so you can be creative without that.

(57:44):
But some people but but it's all but it's more difficult,
you know. You can, you can to get to that
place and and and Bono manages to get to that
place without without external stimulation. And I think that maybe faith,
you know, it may maybe a god belief that that
that gives him that ability to just because he's the

(58:07):
most cat handed person, you know. He's like, he's famously
a bad a bad driver. Everyone says, don't get in
a car with borrow, you know. But but he's like
a ballet dancer on stage. But he's the most clumsy
person you'll ever meet outside, you know, So he has
this ability to just just become this uh, this swan

(58:30):
when he's on stage. Now, living in Los Angeles, we
had k Rock, which immediately when and I will follow.
I certainly bought the album for a long time until
our two baby. I was convinced it was the best one.
Did you know what you had after making Boy? No?
And you know what, they didn't either. No one really
knew it's only and it was funny twenty year anniversary

(58:54):
of Boy and and it was remastered and the band
had to listen to the remastering and and and I
think they've never heard the album obviously you don't, you
know you you live, but they had to check the remastering.
And I got a phone call from Bono's Steve our

(59:15):
debut album, it's fucking great, you know, And I went well, yeah,
thank you Bow, you know, because he didn't know, and
he listened to all the production values and all the
like weird little things that I did, and you know,
and and for him it was like just you know, fantastic.
And he actually went out and really gave you know,

(59:36):
he truly believed it was a great album. Only on
the twentieth anniversary, but he did say to me, Steve,
it's really great. But there is one thing I don't like.
I said, what's that? Mosis? I don't like the singer
good Now, the Edge is famous for creating sounds with

(01:00:01):
effects in the studio. How much time did you spend
getting those sounds? Oh? Well, you know, Edge Edges famous
for spending of his time getting the sound and one
percent of the time recording it. You know, I mean
that's his thing. I mean Edges a sonic. Uh. You know.

(01:00:21):
Edge is the scientist of the band. He's the one
he wears a white coat with with with pains in
his top pocket and and and his slow and methodical
and and and that's him. He's never perturbed. You know,
very rarely does Edge get incredibly enthusiastic, And very rarely

(01:00:43):
does he get incredibly down. He is the steady turtle,
you know. He he's slow but steady. Botto is the
fucking headless chicken, you know. As you know, Okay, you've
had those guys right, you made these three record it,
then they move on with you know. But it's kind

(01:01:04):
of like Godfather three. They always pull you in. What's
that about? And it seems like every recordgend to working
out anyway. It's it's true. And and this is thanks
to Mr McGinnis, who is very very very black and
white in his thinking. Because it was on the Joshua Tree.
I didn't do anything on Unforgettable Fire, you know, but

(01:01:27):
but when the Joshua Tree was being made, they basically, um,
they're they're they're eighteen months into the album. They've they've
you know, and they had a meeting with Paul and
so so legend has it. Paul said, look, you know,
you're a big band, but we've got everyone on salary.
We need to get out. We need to finish this
album because we can't keep recording forever. And and he

(01:01:52):
said when you you know, and he said, when you
were recorded with Steve, you made records in like three
months maximum, you know. By war took about three months.
I think boy took six weeks October two months, and
he said, why don't you get Steven maybe he can
he can help finish off the album. So the band went, okay, great,

(01:02:16):
so they invited me back and um and basically they
were they were. They gave me the songs that they
felt were the most For some reason, with them, I
had this sort of reputation as the guy who would
do the singles, you know, I was the guy. And
it wasn't just mixing it says mixed by but that

(01:02:37):
that is not much. It's much more like a relay race,
you know, a YouTube. And now many people make records
this way, funnily enough, but this was probably the first
relay race that that um that in recording it. So basically,
but Brian you know, and Danny Lanoir said to me
they were they were burnt out on where the streets

(01:02:59):
have no name. So they basically handed the baton to
me and my job was to just carry on the
production while they went and worked on One Tree Hill
and some you know, some of the more obscure songs
on site too, which still had to be finished, you know.
But but I was like the guy I was ready
dare I've always thought that that was my um my

(01:03:22):
job with you two, okay, but what it like working
on tracks that you didn't cut, that aren't finished and
it was fine? You know. It's like I'm as I say,
I'm there's no rules in my book, you know, because
I'm never confident enough to to to to have any
specific definite as to what I do. I mean, I

(01:03:47):
had this drum sound, you know, in the early eighties,
and I used to pretty much try and do this
drum sound on all my records until I did an
album with Marshall Crenshaw and I did that drum sound
and completely fucking in the album, you know. So so
I realized that that's not a rule, you know. So
I don't have any rules about anything. I just I

(01:04:10):
use something in the back of my you know. I mean,
there's a faith I have, you know, even though I
have no God God belief, I have a faith in
humans and that if me and people get together, we
can make something greater than what they can make on
their own or what I can make on my own.

(01:04:32):
Just some magic that that that we can come up with. Okay,
tell us about the drum sound that that's just a
load of you know, it's well with you two, And
I'm very proud of this fact that that that Ireland
had made rock stars before you too, you know thin
Lizzie boomtown Rats, Rory Gallagher and Taste, you know, some

(01:04:53):
very good artists, but they'd all had to they'd all
gone to London to make their records. No one had
made a rock album in um, in Dublin or in Ireland.
And you two wanted to do their first album in Ireland.
And and I remember walking into Windmill Lane Studios and
in the actual studio area it was made for recording

(01:05:16):
Irish folk music. It was very dead sounding um you know,
so if you clip your hands it would you don't
hear any echo. There was nothing. It was like not
exciting sound and it's shit, I'm not going to get
a great sound out of this. But actually when you
walk through reception to get into the studio, there was

(01:05:36):
this big area where the receptionists sat with the uh
you know, there's no mobile phone so if you wanted
to get and there was also winbill Lane was not
just a recording studio, it was a video editing thing.
There was three floors. The studio was in the in
the ground floor, in the basement, so she sat there
and the phone calls would come in and she would

(01:05:56):
direct it off to different departments. You know, you remember
the states right when when um so and I clapped
my hands out there and it sounded like they had
these stolen things on the on the waters handed great
and I said, oh, so I got the studio manager.
I said, look, I'd like to record the drums out here, please,
and he looked at me like I was smoking crack

(01:06:18):
and he said, no, this is where the all right, Steve,
this is where the you know, tried to bad Irish accent.
I'm sorry, this is where the receptionists. I said, well,
what time did she go home? And he said, well,
she goes home at six o'clock. I said, okay, well
we'll set the drums up after six o'clock, at which
point I got into trouble with Larry Mullins dad, because
Larry was only seventeen and his dad used to come

(01:06:40):
and collect him from the studio every day, so I had,
you know, I had to placate his dad. And but
we set the drums up outside and they sounded fantastic
and and I and I'm very proud that I made
this this sort of you know, punk It was sort

(01:07:01):
of punk psychedelic tyme album. But but even then, you
know that the Clever Money was not on YouTube. The
Clever Money was on Julian Cope with Teardrop explodes. The
Clever Money was on Echo and the money Men. You know,
no one really put their money on YouTube. But you know,

(01:07:23):
a mixture of of of dedication, a mixture of of
mcguinness's vision of seeing the world rather than seeing the
front cover of Enemy. I think, you know, to be honest,
a lot of these artists once they got you know,
for instance, Echo on the Money Men especially, you know,

(01:07:44):
once a one once u their singer had been on
the front cover of The Enemy, It's like, hey, I'm
the biggest star in the world. You know. It's that,
It's that mentality you two have, that sort of you
know again had the fear of it. I think they
had fear as well, you know, fear is it? Is
it great driving force? Is there any you two album,

(01:08:04):
whether the Unforgettable Fire that you didn't work on. I
didn't work on Pop, I didn't work on one of
the songs of something or other, They all they will
mix up to me, Roy Roy, Roy Ray, So what
did you What do you do? Because my other favorite
is like Couldn't Baby, which is really on many levels
of left field record from what came before? What do

(01:08:24):
you do on that? I worked on? Oh god, my
least favorite of all you two songs is Who's going
to Ride Your fucking Wild Horses? I'll tell you the
great story about that. Apparently, you know, they've had Joshua
Tree and act on Baby and it was very successful.
So it seemed like and they were still having trouble
with acting Baby, similar thing, you know, to you know,

(01:08:46):
eighteen months into recording. Oh my god, it's not finished.
What can we do? We have to you know, one thing,
it was like, it couldn't be anything like Joshua Tree.
The idea was, you know, it had to be a
complete you know, Bollo said this, we had to chop
down the Joshua Tree. Very melodramatic, but you know, the
idea was, we had to make a record that was
not that was not like the Joshua Tree. And so

(01:09:11):
I got invited in again to come and do my
thing to the Redder. Dare come and pull it in,
come and finish off the the important songs, you know.
So I did even better than the Real Thing, Yeah,
which is a great song. I love that song. But
I was given Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses?
And and I have to say I I worked a

(01:09:35):
month on that song, and I and I there's not
very many songs that I twitch when I hear, you know,
like you can see me. But the listener, if they're
still listening, they've probably gone by now this one. And
I'll believe they're riveted. Oh maybe they're not. Um, yeah,
I would. I would twitch when when I still do

(01:09:58):
whenever I hear it, because you know, for me production wise.
But but but let me go back. The reason there
was so much emphasis on that song was that they
were having a meeting with Jimmy Irvine and they were
playing rough mixes of Acting Baby, and like Jimmy, Jimmy
was just a friend, you know, I don't I don't
think he was there, or maybe he was their their

(01:10:20):
A and R guy at the time, But anyway, they
were meeting with Jimmy Irvine and and he was like,
you know, confused because you two had become a rock
band and that in America at the time was considered
the most, um the greatest thing. They had no problem
with rock bands. YouTube always had a problem being a

(01:10:40):
rock band, you know. They didn't want to be a
rock band. They wanted to to be an arts band,
you know. So um So, Jimmy, I think was a
little bit confused. I think when he heard Acting Baby
until and they were they were listening to the songs
and and they were talking about this new thing called
house music. Right, And as they were talking about house music,

(01:11:03):
Who's going to Ride Your Wild Horses? Came on the
stereo and you guys, hey, yeah, that's some hart of
the music. That's fucking house music. You can buy a
new fucking house with that song, you know. So it
had got the blessing of Jimmy Irvy because it was
a house music, meaning you could buy a new house
with that right as opposed to Manchester. Okay, that record

(01:11:28):
was famously cut in Berlin. Does location effect the recording? Okay,
that record was not cutting Berlin, of that record was
cut back in Dublin. But the idea, and this is
where you too succeed for me, is when they have
a big idea, the big idea of the Joshua Tree

(01:11:48):
was the desert, and I think that you feel that
when you hear that album. The big idea for Acting
Baby was Eastern Europe. They sort of stole it from
Bowie and you know, but that's okay. That was the
big idea for that album. The big idea for Um
All that you Can't Leave Behind was retrospection. They absolutely

(01:12:10):
managed to get that right. You know. Now, some big
ideas don't work, you know. The big idea for No
Line on the Horizon was North Africa, was belly Dancers,
was hookers. They went to North Africa to record the album.
None of that is you know, they were chasing a

(01:12:32):
hit instead of keeping to their big idea, you know,
the big idea when they when they get it right,
they nail it. Okay, let's just go back to the
drum sound. I think he said, let's just load back
more times with me than everything my talk to with Crenshaw.

(01:12:53):
What was the specific drum sound you use that clap
brings up. Oh, well, he had his first album where
he was considered you know, like Buddy Holly with the Glasses,
and it was all there for his second album. You
know that the album I did was called field Day,
and I basically recorded I mean, I just put this

(01:13:18):
really big ambiance sort of sound on it. And and
he will still he he will defend that album. And
subsequently I've had people say to me, oh, that's a
special little gem that album. I don't know if you've
ever heard it called field all right, Well, the song

(01:13:40):
if ever You're on my Mind, whenever You're Whenever You're
on my mind. Yeah, it's got a great sound, like exactly.
But at the time I think people were slightly confused
by the sound because they expected Marshall Grenshaw to come
out sounding a lot less sort of cluttery. Maybe you're
something I don't know if cluttery is a word. Sticky.

(01:14:04):
Sticking with the drum sound, though, legend has it that
you invented the gated drum sound. Is that true? Would
you agree with? Well, I I certainly can lay claim
to that, even though you know that it was a
team effort like anything. You know, I only work as
a team. I'm not you know, I've said this all along.
You know, team efforts are what what I believe in.

(01:14:26):
And yes, I it was certainly refined on the on
the Pieter Gabriel album. But a lot of people call
it gated reverb. It's actually just it's a gated ambience.
I don't think I've ever used a gated reverb on
anything in my life. I use a natural sound of
a room, and I gate that. But you know, no

(01:14:49):
one wants to hear technical stuff. They want to hear
stories of drug taking with Keith. Okay, okay, so speaking
and so tell us the story of working with the
story of the Stones. Well, you know, basically, a real
man never turns down the rolling stones, you know, And
back in those days, I considered myself a real man,
even though I knew the moment I got in there

(01:15:09):
and I heard and well, okay, they they they auditioned
a handful of producers. Basically, I think Mick Jagger called
up this is how I heard the story, called up
Elton John and said, who is there? We need a producer.
You know, there's there's there's a lot of tension in

(01:15:30):
the studio at the moment. We need someone to diffuse
the situation, you know. And I'll tell you why there
was tension when I get to it. We need to
diffuse the situation. Who is there? And Elton John, who
you probably know still gets the top ten every week.
He's an absolute because he's you know, the great thing
about Elders that he's never written a lyric in his life,

(01:15:52):
so he never feels like anyone is his competition because
he's just a fan, you know, because really, a lyric
writer is the one who shows their dirty underwear. No
one else shows their dirty underwear, right, it's a lyric
writer who shows their dirty fucking underwear. So Elton is
completely oh, listen to anyone's lyrics because I have nothing,

(01:16:15):
you know, I will never think something. There's no Carton,
will never think anyone's lyrics are better than mine. So
Elton said, well, there's this guy, you know, Steve Lillywhite.
I like the sound of him. And there's so and so,
and then said so I went and and the audition
was to hang out with the Stones in Paris for
the night, you know, in the studio, so they were

(01:16:38):
working only you know, no one got the studio till
about one in the morning, you know. So I remember meeting.
When I arrived for my session, it was just as
Rupert Hein was leaving. Who's a mate who was a
mate of mine and lovely rightly man. And I hear
from his widow. Yeah, probably I used to. I used

(01:16:58):
to hear from him, but now I hear from the
widow and he um, he's one of the He was
one of the nicest guys. I don't think he would
have lasted with not right for stones. But but I
somehow managed to get the job, you know. And but
but from from the moment I walked in, I realized
when where you know, it was just after Nick's first

(01:17:20):
solo album had been released, and you know, which was
affectionately known as that fucking disco album by all in
the studio. So I thought, oh, oh, now I know
why they need to They want someone else to an
arbitrator at least, you know. So I um, so my

(01:17:40):
job was as much Henry Kissinger, you know, because I
would have Mick going go and tell it because they
never spoke to each other. Literally, they didn't speak, you know,
even when they were out jamming, and they would jam
a lot, and and you know, but I mean we
did Harlem Shuffle, which was okay, I mean it was
a cover version of an old Bob and our song

(01:18:02):
we did. I mean, there was a song called one
hit to the Body that was acceptable, but it wasn't
a great album. They never toured it. And I always
said I did the worst Rolling Stones album ever until
the next one. You know, I don't I I you
know they but you know, the Rolling Stones were, yeah,

(01:18:26):
hey that I don't put them in one of my
greatest bands. I think they you know, they were a
great blues band, but I don't, you know. And they
were very true to the roots, you know. I mean
Keith richards Is is like as faithful to his music
as he is to his wife, you know, And that's
a very honorable that's a very honorable thing. Tell me
the story of doing the Times and Twins in the

(01:18:49):
Name of Love. I'm a huge Times and Twins fan,
and I remember hearing that radio immediately had to buy it.
And it doesn't really sound like they're big records thereaft No,
it doesn't. And it doesn't sound like what they were
like before that as well, because um I spoke to
Tom Bailey the other day actually he was in in

(01:19:10):
quarantine in Auckland. He's such a lovely man, such absolutely
lovely man. Um. Because you know, as you get older,
you realize that if you don't speak to various people,
you probably will never speak to them again. Because listen,
when our contemporaries are dying, it is so strange. Uh.
You know, when you can see if the end is
in sight, you say, well, what do I want to comment?

(01:19:32):
I was talking to my shrink today. It's like I
can't read every book. I can't watch every movie, can't
listen every record. I have to choose it. It It makes
me crazy. Before he said, I'll get to it. I'll
get to it. No, I'm never gonna get to it. No, Well,
I I don't care about I'd much rather be I'm
a people person. So I just want to make sure
that I get to speak to my old friends because
you know, I know there's going to be a point

(01:19:54):
where it's like, oh wait, maybe it's me. You know,
who's the next one to go? You know, m absolutely so. Anyway,
in the name in the name of Okay. So, before
that song, the Thompson Twins were a sort of rag
tag and tale hippie dippy band, six piece, seven piece
band who played sort of psychedelic long pieces, you know,

(01:20:19):
And we were doing the album in Rack studios in London,
and it was an okay album It wasn't great, but
it was at the very end of that album um
and this Rat Studios was owned by Mickey Most who
was like a legendary British producer and he um and

(01:20:39):
he just took uh. He bought this new thing called
this new drum machine called a movement drum machine, and
it was put in the studio. Tom suddenly started playing
it and got this immediate like rush of creativity. And
of course, you know, for me as a producer, it
was not like, oh it is I said great, you know,

(01:21:02):
because that's where the enthusiasm comes in. You see someone
being creative, you have to push them because you never
know when they're not going to be creative, you know.
So when they're being creative, my job is to is
to to make sure everything is going well. So he
started doing the drumbeat and then started you know, and

(01:21:22):
he wrote the song there on the drum machine, and
we did it and you know, and and and it
was so different from the rest of the album. And
I still think it's the only song I've ever had
in the dance charts because in general, I didn't pick
records with drum machines, and I you know, I much
prefer a real drummer. But Tom's enthusiasm was so great.
And when we made this record, and of course then

(01:21:45):
you know they went on and and and and carried on.
But but but you know it wasn't you know that
that their music subsequently was not necessarily my style? You know,
I loved because you know, I would not say anything
bad about it, because you know, when you know someone,
you give them the benefits of the doubt for their art.

(01:22:07):
Of course, you know. Okay, okay, since you mentioned rack, Hey,
does the studio make a difference? Be do you have
a preferred studio? Three? Would you rather have the band
live in their hometown or to relocate to make the rest? Oh?
My god? Ay do I have a favorite studio? Well,
in those days, the two prerequisits three prerequisites. One was

(01:22:29):
that it was near where I lived, because I needed
to get there. Two, I liked a good live area
where I could if I wanted to, or some of
the times where I always did make that drum sound.
And three they had to have a table tennis table.
Are you a good pink plank player? You know what

(01:22:50):
I picked up about yesterday for the first time in
about three years and I was useless, so I can't say,
but I had the skills in those wis do you
do you know that the big thing in Russian now
and it spread around the world, is betting on people
playing table tennis table you see, I called it table
tennis rather than pin point. But as I said, I
couldn't believe this. These are not star players. But there's

(01:23:12):
a whole thing. You watch it on YouTube. Your bet
it's crazy. So anyway you want a table tennis that, honestly, literally,
those are the three things U would I take a
band look with U? I always said. With the first
three Dave Matthews albums I did, we recorded them. We

(01:23:34):
we went away to record them, you know, the first
two in Bearsville in upstate New York and the third
one at the plant in in Sorcelita. Now this was
great because we we went there for a specific time
to make the album and we and it was great.
Now for the fourth album, they wanted me back, They said, Steve,

(01:23:55):
we want to do this album. We built our own
studio in Charlottesville. I said, okay, but let me warn
you from my experience, it will it will go from
making an album to going to work. Big difference when
you're making an album because you're away from your home,
you're somewhere else and you're making an album. If you're

(01:24:18):
living in your home and you have a studio in
your hometown, you are not making an album. You are
going to work. And of course when you're going to work,
you can start complaining about it. And all of a sudden,
the band members started, you know, there was it was
going on longer, and I warned them, this album will
take longer because you are in your hometown. You have

(01:24:39):
other things going on in your life. And and of
course I you know, I got fired. My rough mixes
went on to Napster. At the height of Napster, it's
still the most downloaded bootleg album in history, called the
Lily White Sessions. You know, I always say I got
heartfully aware of this from I downloaded these, the fact

(01:25:02):
that they ultimately went to uh, Greg Glenn Ballard. Do
you give a ship that your stuff, you know, wasn't
releasing that time? You say here that to business. No,
I got all the kudos and none of the cash.
And at the end of the day, you know, when
I die, I'm a legend in that world. And you know,
I know that's that sounds very arrogant, doesn't it. But

(01:25:24):
you know I got that band. You know, Glenn Ballard
just wanted to make pop record and that's fine, you know,
but um but I'm glad that that my album has
been validated. That that that because because I did a lot,
you know, with Dave Matthews band. They would I would

(01:25:45):
allow them just to play and I would do everything else.
I would edit, I would make them, you know, I
you know, but that's look, I I did very well
from them, and you know, but I don't feel that
connection with them like I do with you know, with

(01:26:05):
you two. You know, I got you know when when
when when I meet them, it's hugs and like hey
hey hey, you know, with with them, it's it's not
such a lovely inning. But that's life. Okay. Let's talk
about the money. Traditionally, a producer gets a fee and
hopefully you get royalties from record one. You gotta earn

(01:26:27):
back whatever you've been paid. How has it worked out
for you financially? Have you gotten the money you deserve?
Are you stay you're still fighting for their money? Well,
you get a fee, you get an advance against a royalty,
meaning that yeah, you get paid from record one if
you're very if you if you have that in your contract,
whereas sometimes the artists don't get paid from record one

(01:26:48):
because they have a big advance that they need to
pay back, you know. But yeah, I mean I I
had my my very early records. I didn't get very
much because you sort of it's more about I want
to do it rather than you know, you know, you
have to give to get, you know, in that way.

(01:27:08):
But but also a lot of those um, those early
certainly those early virgin contracts, I don't know. I think
they were very artists unfriendly because you know, Andy Partridge
one of the most talented guys I've ever worked with.
Just you know, he's up there with with we need
just so intricate, such fantastic. You know, he hasn't got

(01:27:33):
what he's deserved, you know. And that sort of rubbed
off on my money as well from that, so you know,
it's but no, I've I've made a great living. I don't.
For me, it's not about money. It's about what you
leave behind them. And you can only spend so much
and what do you what do you do? Did you
blow your money or you have it, what do you
do with the money? Oh? Look, for some reason, my

(01:27:56):
apple watch just said he didn't understand what you said. Yes,
so they really are listening in everywhere, Bob oh yeah,
oh god? So, um did I blow my mind? I
don't think so. I've never had that, even in in
the sorts of crazier days. I wasn't like one of
those people who bought a Rolls Royce and because I

(01:28:19):
never moved to l a and for me, it was
like I always worked. It was always about the work
and the art, you know. And I was just not
stupid enough to think that if I earn a million
bucks this year, I need to live a million dollar
a year lifestyle because I probably won't be earning a
million dollars every year, you know. So you know, it's

(01:28:41):
like some some sports stars still don't get that they
think they're going to be playing basketball at the age
of sixty five. You know, No, certainly in sports, you know,
very in sports, it's very, very bad. I think it
probably has changed now. I think they have financial advisors
and it improved, but you know, it's still a problem.
But let's go back. You talked about losing the wonder

(01:29:05):
in the excitement just before you moved to Jakarta. Well,
I was losing. Losing it's a little bit. Yeah, okay,
but let's just apply that to the music itself. For you,
you seem to indicate earlier that the music itself changed
or maybe your reaction there too. Can you plat? I

(01:29:26):
mean when I listen, the Beatles came along, music drove
the culture, and then it faded at the end of
the seventies, and the MTV came along and it happened again.
And there's certainly music it's successful. People have no idea.
You're talking about the BBC earlier, how we were addicted
to the radio. So when did it change and why
did it change? Oh day, was just the technology changed

(01:29:48):
and and and it's enabled the technology enabled people to
make records in their homes and and the sort of
you know, the recording studio is my church, you know,
that's that's my religion. You know, as I say, I
have no rules, but I actually do have one rule.
I will not let anyone eat in the control room.

(01:30:10):
You know, I won't let anyone it because because I
the idea of smelly you know, eating at your workstation
is bad enough. And that's a very American thing, by
the way, people eating at their desk. But if you know,
if there's a rule I say to someone when they
come in munching a fucking burger with onions, I said,
excuse me, could you go out? Because it's like you
walked into church eating a fucking hamburger. It's just not right.

(01:30:34):
And for me, the studio is this wonderful place of
mystery like the churches too religious people, So I don't
that's my one rule. I tell people not to eat
in the control room. Um. But but but the sense
of wonder, I mean, you don't have the sense of
wonder as much when your first thing that you do
is to turn on a you know, is to is

(01:30:58):
to have sequences and and no musicians, and everyone's looking
at the screen, you know. I think that's when you know.
I've always used my ears, you know, my ears have
been my thing, not my eyes. And now I think, um,
a lot of people look to see what's wrong rather
than listen to see what's wrong, you know. And I uh,

(01:31:22):
but also given the way record everything has to be
so christine and perfect because it's easy for it to
be christine and perfect, whereas back in the day, our
favorite records were all this wonderful sort of connection of smudginess,
that that that that you just listened to and was
we're just amazed by and every time you heard it,

(01:31:45):
you heard something new and some you know, and it
was mysterious. Maybe kids now find music mysterious, but I
don't know whether they do. You know, you know, I
don't think anything with any real profile is mysterious. Now
today the biggest genre is hip hop, and there's still pop.

(01:32:05):
Are you a fan of those records who died in
the wall? Rocker? Oh? I'm I was never really a rocker.
I've no, I never really. I don't think I've ever
done power chords on a record in my life. I
don't like power chords. It's the most uncreative way of
making power. I've always tried to do other cover of dogs,
working on UM. I've always tried to look for other

(01:32:28):
ways to get the right sounds. So you know, I've
I've always turned down those artists. You know, if we
had time, I would tell you my Guns and Roses story.
Are you gonna tell it? Did you brite it up? Oh? Okay,
And I'll tell you why I'm telling you this story. Okay, okay, Well,

(01:32:49):
you know guns and roses, they are rocked royalty to
Americans especially, and to many many people. So when I
got the phone call that Axl wanted to meet me
for Chinese democracy, and this was only a couple of
years into it, you know, so it wasn't like this,

(01:33:09):
you know, no one really knew that the red flags.
But anyway, so they flew me to l A, you know,
to meet to meet me, and and and we went
to dinner, uh that one mccassie Japanese restaurant just over
the hill of the Fame. Yeah, anyway, absolutely, you know,

(01:33:33):
I've forgot the name. So and you know, we get
on great, you know, me Axel and his manager of
the time. I can't dug someone another's gold team. So
we're chatting and we're great, great, we got on. Well,
we and he says, look, I've got the studio book
for the next six months. Do you want to come
to the studio? I said, yeah, great, So we went
to the studio and we're in there and and he said,

(01:33:55):
I'll play a few tracks. So he played me a
few few tracks and and actually I thought, oh, I
understand why he might want me on this album, I think,
And I started to get excited. I said, but but
all that they were just backing tracks, none of them
had any vocals on. I said, do you have anything
with vocals, because yeah, I have one song. So he

(01:34:15):
played this one song with singing, and I suddenly went,
oh shit, I've just realized I literally could never press
the talk back and say that sounds really good, because
for me, it would always sound better without singing, because no, no,
and I and I and I'm and I'm honest about

(01:34:37):
this and I and I and and my heart sunk
because you know, I've forgotten that that, you know, for
for some people, as I say, they loved the sound
of his voice. For me, I didn't, And I maybe
should have said that before I went to the meeting,
But anyway, whatever, I just had this sinking feeling in
my heart, but I didn't say anything. We finished the evening,

(01:34:59):
I went back to the to the hotel. Next morning,
Doug called me, Steve, you're in Axel things. You're fucking great,
and well, actually, Doug, I I don't think I'm the
right man for your album, and he goes, oh, really, blah,
blah blah blah art. But you know you can't force
someone to have sex with k so um so we

(01:35:22):
I didn't go, and that would be the story. I
would never have told this to you and your millions
of adoring listeners, except the next issue of Rolling Stone
comes out and it's axl Rose turns down Steve lily
White and I got you. You should have just said nothing.
You know, you know, And so that's why I tell

(01:35:44):
the story, because you know, if if I hadn't, if
he hadn't said that, and they can set the record straight. Okay,
so you're obviously working. Are you working all day or
is there anything else that fills the rest of the day,
Your reader, your TV streamer. I'm a huge football soccer fan,
you know, I mean that's my thing. I well, Indonesia

(01:36:07):
right now, Jakarta is is in what they call semi lockdown.
I can go to my office at KFC, but I
can also do a lot of work from home, you know,
which everyone's a lot of people have realized they've realized
that they don't have to go. But you know, I
am a people person, so I do like to be
with people. Um I restaurants here are open til eight

(01:36:31):
o'clock in the evening at thirty capacity. But you know,
I take a lot of I have a test every week,
COVID test. I wash my hands, you know, I know
lots of it. You know. It's the cases are starting
to slowly, slowly built here because it's always you know,
it's always centigrade thirty thirty two degrees. So I don't

(01:36:53):
think you've double that. They have thirty two. So that's
basically ninety six degrees. Yes, something is in ninety six Yeah,
during the day at about twenty five at night. Um,
so it's it's it's lovely and it's a little polluted,
although less polluted now because of because there's less industry,
you know, there's less going on, but less cars on

(01:37:15):
the street. But I mean, I think I have to
after it's right now, it's for you, it's what seven pm,
right exactly seven pm? It's ten am for me, so
I will yeah, I don't know yet, but it's it's
a you know, okay, what do you what do you

(01:37:37):
think about what's going on in Britain with Brexit, collvid, etcetera.
And now that you live in Dakarda, well the whole
I mean, it's just so sad that, you know, Brexit
was a problem that we didn't even know we had.
You know, it was a problem. You know, David Cameron
was actually not the worst Prime minister we had, but

(01:37:57):
he did the worst thing ever to the British people.
If you give if you only have a two horse
race and you give them a choice this or this.
I mean you look at American politics, Actually what happens
is it normally splits very close to whatever, whether it's
like the devil or gods. You know, it's um So,

(01:38:21):
you know, no one really hated it wasn't a big deal. No,
no one hated Europe. But you know Brexit comes about
and all that, the lies being told about. You know,
it's got to be done. We need our own sovereignty.
It's bullshit, you know. All I all I know is
that if you're in a storm on the ocean, would

(01:38:41):
you rather be in a little rowing boat or would
you rather be in the Queen Mary? You know, And
that's pretty much where Britain is now. We're a little
rowing boat. Now. Everyone goes, oh, yeah, but we've got
far more vaccines at the moment. Yes, that's true, but
you know, Um, it's because we're you know, you look
at the huntries that have vaccinated the highest population are

(01:39:03):
the ones with the you know, I mean Israel doesn't
have a large population really, you know. So it's um.
But yeah, I'm I'm very proud to be British, but
I am a European as well, you know. Now I'm
paying Okay, prior to COVID, how much did you get
out of Karna? And where did you go? Oh? Well, Bali,

(01:39:24):
of course is part of Indonesia, but there's that's only
one of thousands of islands, and they're these fantastic places
to visit, you know, which are sort of weakendable for me.
So um. But also you know, I like, you know,
I live to eat. You know, I don't eat to live.

(01:39:44):
I live to eat. So for me, one thing that
my lifestyle has enabled me is the ability to eat
at probably the most expensive restaurant in the world. You know,
how often, Bob, can you afford what is considered the
best in the world of everything? I'll never be able
to afford the best car in the world, now that's
what I say. I use a much baser thing. I

(01:40:06):
talk about chocolate chip cookies. If I'm meeting chocolate chip cookies.
Why I take the ones off the shelf. I can
get the best chocolate chip cookie for fire under ten dollars.
I can live like a king. Well, that's true, you know.
And and one of the great things about food as
a general art form is there are no um there
no one owns the copyright on anything. So you know,

(01:40:29):
you can go to a little village in Colombia and
eat something, and you can take it to your restaurants
in Ohio and tweak it, and then someone can come
to your restaurant in Ohio and then take it to
a restaurant in l A and then tweet. You know,
So you get this wonderful getting better and better because
it's all different people working together. You know, there's no

(01:40:50):
copyright on any food, so I I you know, even
in Jakarta we get great food. Indonesian food is pretty good.
But the thing I love at the moment is my
air fryer. Are you familiar with? What are you cooking
your air fer anything? It's great for heating up, it's
great for chicken, it's great for oh god, chicken livers

(01:41:11):
in there are delicious. Um. Are you familiar with so
not only do you eat, you know how to cook
well a little bit, A little bit, Okay, I don't
really cook it off. Okay, one can cook with an
air fried bob by yourself an air fryer. Okay. What's
the best meal you've ever had? The best meal I've
Oh god, I don't know. I mean, depends how hungry

(01:41:32):
I am. But but have you eaten some of the
great what is it normal? Have you eaten this ill bully?
Is the is the best one? And I've been to
a two mission. There's only three Michelin stars, right, And
apparently someone told me the difference between a two Michelin
Star restaurant and a three Michelin Star restaurant is only

(01:41:53):
the service is the silver stood the actual quality of
the food between the two and the three stars about
the stay right. So I've been to a two Michelin
Star in Singapore. Um, but you know, I'm always just
you know, when I find something that I like. You know,
the same with the chocolate chip cookies, I artias and

(01:42:13):
all like. You know that the big thing in Indonesia
at the moment, and I don't know about l A,
is that is that people they sort of advertise on
Instagram and stuff. You know, on this day we are
doing a batch of this and if you wanted to
order it, order it now and we'll deliver it to
you on that day, you know. So you know my um.

(01:42:38):
So there's one place that that does this clam chowder,
but you know it's only every two or three weeks.
So I always they have clam chowder in Jakarta. Yes,
on sour dough. It's delicious. I loved a huge clam
chowder fit And you don't have to give you three
what's the clear? Okay? So what's your last meal? What
kind of cuisine do you want? Oh? Oh? Japanese, followed

(01:43:03):
by Italian. They are followed by Indian. I think those
are my top three, I think, and then the Japanese.
Would it be sushi, sushimi or would it be good dishes?
So it would be sushi. I mean, you know, the
greatest sushi in the world. I mean, you know those
places in on Sunset which which are like which you know,

(01:43:26):
not romantic at all, and you sit at the sushi
bar and I love that you can spend a couple
of hundred bucks in half an hour, you know, I
just feed me for me, you know, I don't go
This is the trouble with America is too much choice.
If you have too much choice, you can hide. Mediocrity
hides behind choice if you have Wow, that's a great statement.

(01:43:49):
I've never heard that before. Well no, I've never said
it before, but it does it well. This is my
idea that that that if you have less choice, it
has to be good. Otherwise you would you would um,
you would, you would go out of business. So if
ever there's a restaurant that only serves one thing but
it's busy, I would go there because I know if

(01:44:12):
there's ever a business that only does one thing but
it's a successful business, I know that it's it's great,
you know, and Amakassie is pretty much that. You know,
it's only what they find that day. And you know,
I don't I don't tell someone how to cook my food.
You know. It's like I don't tell someone how to

(01:44:33):
cut my hair. I just don't go to that barber
or I don't go to that restaurant. Again, great philosophy.
You know, when when I talk about you the third parties,
I say, Steve is completely opposite of what you think
of a record producer, certainly Phil spector recently. Not someone
who's introverted, lives the dark. Whatever. You're a guy who

(01:44:53):
could be playing on the football team. As you say,
you are a people person. Uh. You know, there's so
many other sub next we could talk about, but I
think we've come to the end of the feeling we've
known for today's styes about if ever you need anything else,
And look, it's been great. I loved it very good
and I loved it too, and I know people love
listening to it. Until next time this time, Okay,

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Host

Bob Lefsetz

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