November 17, 2022 • 39 mins
The Book of Joe Podcast begins with Hosts Tom Verducci and World Series Champion Joe Maddon discussing meeting fans while on the road doing book signings. While the AL MVP will likely be awarded to Aaron Judge, Tom doesn't want the greatness of Shohei Ohtani to be even slightly overlooked. As Ohtani's former manager, Joe looks at what next for the phenom and his upcoming free agency. We move to the impact more experienced managers are having on baseball and how they turn knowledge of the game into success. Tom reveals a system Dusty Baker uses to find his most reliable hitter. Meanwhile, the Astros are looking for a GM and we could see a philosophy change for the team. Speaking of change, teams will be looking to add 'glue guys' to rosters. Who are they and what do they do?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My
Heart Radio. Hey We're back. It's Tom Berducci and Joe
Madden with another episode of the Book of Joe podcast.
Of course, it is based on the actual Book of Joe.
It's out now and available wherever you buy your books.
(00:26):
Whether you want the print version or the audio version,
you will absolutely love it. Joe. How you doing. I'm good, Tommy.
I'm here in Chicago. We represented yesterday at the Union League,
really nice luncheon. David Hall helped out with the interview
on stage, kind of like the fireside chat thing, and
we sold over two hundred there and the people were great.
And then last night I went with the Downers Grove
(00:47):
which was truly incredible. It's a suburb, beautiful area and
over seven d there that that really blew me away.
People were standing in line outside. It was cold, so
it's a very very humbling moment for all of that,
but it was a great experience. So it's always great
to get back through the Chicago a little cold today,
but I've enjoyed my state. Yeah, it's it's so interesting, Joe,
(01:09):
when you're out and about and you get reactions from
people about the book, and of course we had an
event at book Ends in Ridgewood, New Jersey recently, and
it really warns my heart that people are coming to
this book who are not necessarily baseball fans, or maybe
not hardcore baseball fans. I think everybody's pulling something different
out of it, whether it's life lessons, whether it's leadership lessons.
(01:30):
I've had a lot of feedback from people in the
business world about, you know, how to manage people and
how to connect with people. So I think it's really
cool that, Yeah, a baseball fan is going to love it,
there's no doubt about it. But the audience for this
book seems to be really broad, very cool. Yeah, that
happened again yesterday, the whole day both places. Um, it's
just incredible. I mean, I'm looking out the window right
now being here, it was here for five years and
(01:52):
just very quickly reminded what I loved the place so much.
And a lot of it has to do with the people.
I mean, these folks were buntled up state in Line,
came through very brief encounter, but god, they were so
up appreciated. Even in the exchange was very warm and sincere.
So sometimes you know we we we forget rather too quickly,
and that was great to be reminded by the fans
(02:14):
of the Cubs and the people of Chicago. Was just
a wonderful experience from me on a personal level. Well,
a lot to get into in the course of this
episode of the Book of Joe podcast, we're gonna talk
about glue guys for you d I wires out there
will explain what that is. And we'll also talk about
older managers, which I think Joe will be happy to
chime in on. And we need to talk about Show
(02:36):
Hey Otani. There's some great insight from you, Joe into
Show Hey Otani in your time managing him. And of
course he is up for the American League m VP Award,
which will be handed out later tonight Thursday night, most
likely going to Aaron Judge. But we need to talk
more about Show Hey Otani because I hope people out
there do not take for granted what this young man
(02:59):
is doing and his talent level and his dedication to
this game. We will never see anything like this again, unless,
of course it's Show Hey does it again. So Joe,
you know him well, you were the one who really
took the reins off him and as you said, never
stand in the way of greatness. He took off some
of the governors that were on him where the angels
were trying to protect him physically. He has certainly responded
(03:20):
to that by just being a pure baseball player. Give
me an insight on what motivates show hey Otani to
be elite at this level. Yeah, he Um, he came
here for a purpose. He came here to be a
to a baseball player. He came here to be the
best player in the game. Um, he's just motivated, motivated
to be the best at what he does, and that's
both pitching and hitting pretty simply as a baseball player.
(03:43):
There's there's nothing else really, I don't think in his
life that distracts him from that. Him and he paid
live really close to the ballpark there in Anaheim, and
he's there all the time. I mean, whether it's to
be rehab the bit or just get ready for a game, whatever,
or just extra work, whatever it may be. It's just
the motivations on another level. This guy truly does want
to be great, and he is great already. But that's it.
(04:06):
I mean, it's very uncomplicated. Is that do simple better
method or moment. He um came here for a reason, man,
And in the beginning, of course, I was not given
that opportunities. As we did take the reins off as
you suggested, it just became he went from like a
little bit. I don't once they introverted, but he wasn't.
You could sense he wasn't as happy as to when
(04:26):
he was given the opportunity to really attempt to fulfill
his destiny and play both sides at the baseball and
play often and not as many days off, etcetera. Uh,
and we're all worried about guys getting hurt, and you
know what happens. Guys get hurt, bodies get hurt. So
it just was all of that just he needed to
be permitted in a sense to just let go go
do your thing. And he's responded beautifully. Yeah, of all,
(04:48):
I don't listen. There's an amazing amount of stats and
ways to look at the greatness of Shoheio Tani. This
is just one for me from the season. He threw
more pitches one miles an hour or more than any
other amount American League starting pitcher, and he hit more
baseballs one hundred miles an hour or greater than any
(05:11):
designated hitter in baseball. It's just crazy now for all
these people out there who are saying, well, show hey,
he should just specialize. Imagine how good he'd be as
a starter. Imagine how he'd be good just as a hitter.
No stop. The man came to this country, to major
League Baseball to do both, and as you I think
just highlighted there, Joe, he loves being a two way player.
(05:35):
Do not take that away from him. Would you ask
Bruce Springsteen to stop writing songs and just play music,
or just play music and don't write the songs. No,
this is a guy who's following his heart, so listen.
I don't know, Joe, if you are concerned at all
about physically show hey, holding up, But I know what's
in his heart. It seems like this is what he
wants to do, and this brings out the best of him,
(05:57):
not specializing. Yeah, that's that's the point right there. I
think he does better or will do better by being
permitted to do both. I think if you pigeonholed him
into one over the other, you're not going to see
the same performance. I think he needs the the diversion,
whether it's gonna pitch one day or hit for four
days or five days. He needs to be able to
(06:18):
park his mind in other areas to really try to
get the best out of what he does on that
particular day, whether it's an offensive player or that's the
day that he has to pitch. Um, it would really
injure him to not be able to I mean mentally
injure him, uh, to not be permitted to do both.
So it's one of those cases, man, it's it's it's
like this conventional wisdom component where you think, if we
(06:38):
took this away from him, he's gonna get better at this.
It's always one of those be careful what you wish
for moments. My my opinion is strongly and I thought
that's from the beginning when I first got there, I thought,
if we permitted him to do both, you're gonna see
better at both, because in the beginning he wasn't. And
like I said, it just reflecting his personalities. Joy for
the day. I can't wait to get there. I am
(06:58):
the best player in baseball based on the fact that
I'm doing two things, which is what I always wanted
to do. So, Um, if you listen, we just can't.
You just can't constantly worry about people getting hurt. And
that's a part of the daily conversation when it comes
to a lot of young players. And um, I've always
had a hard time with that. There are athletes you
can get hard driving her card to the ballpark. They
(07:19):
could get hurt just walking down the steps. Let him alone,
let him go play, and I think you're going to
see a better product. Well said, Now, can I put
you on the spot, joh, what's ahead for show Hey Otani?
Because I know the Angels have come out and said
they're not trading him this winter. Well, we know that
because the team is up for sale. You're not gonna
trade Otani, who was one of the great assets of
(07:40):
the organization when the team is on the market. Doesn't
make any sense. So that pushes the possible trade window
to next July because he would be a free agent
at the end of next season. So the Angels are
on the clock here. They essentially have the first three
months of next season to play competitive enough baseball to
convince show Hey Otani. Besides whatever the contract umber is
(08:04):
to remain with the Angels and listen, it's gonna be
difficult for anybody to sign shoe A Otani because there
are no comps to him, right, you just cannot compare him.
I mean basically, when I look at his numbers from two,
he's actually a compilation of last year's n l CY
Young Winner n m v P. You know, Corbin Burns
and Bryce Harper is So I mean, where the money goes,
(08:26):
we'll see. But tell me about Otani and what you
think he wants beyond next season. Because we knew he
came here and he immediately ruled out some of the
bigger market teams. He ruled out the East Coast. It
was important to him to do both as we talked
about in terms of pitching and hitting the show. Hey Otani,
who we have not seen play a postseason game yet,
burned to go to a winning team. Will he go
(08:49):
to a big market team? Give me a sense of
what you think is ahead for show, Hey Otani? Well,
I think first of all, the idea of him being
there for a couple of three months whatever at the
beginning of next year is wise. In regards to the
Angels on the Angel side, I mean they just got Anderson.
The picture that you look at their staff and I
like these guys a lot um and Perry does dig
lift handed pitching, and they have plenty of them, so, um,
(09:12):
that's interesting. And who knows what they may do at
short stop and when he Foth can repeat what he
did last year, and of course David Fletcher, who I loved.
So I think that's why it's to hold on to
that and see where it goes. Um. And also while
you're doing that, possibly build up the value of the franchise.
I don't know to what extent, but and again I
(09:32):
don't even know what Arty's intentions are this winter, so
that that would be number one. I think that's why
it is to hold on and see what occurs after that.
If if in fact it doesn't roll, well, I think, Um,
I know show he wants to win, he wants to
play winning baseball. Um, what else is there from on
an individual level, um, to accomplish. He's gonna receive his
(09:53):
money's gonna achieve level four, and but he's always been
in level five. All he wants to do is when
the difference is I think, excuse me is when he
first came over, the simity on the West coast to
Japan was very important to him. I think now that
he's understands the culture here better and he's been to
the different cities and he's got to know more people.
(10:14):
I think that opens up the whole uh continent to him.
I do um, and probably even into Canada. I'm not sure,
but UM. Anyway, the whole league now I think is open.
We're in the beginning. I don't think it was. The
whole league is now open now because the h is
um available in both leagues where it wasn't before. Uh.
Those are the kind of things that I think that
there was some restrictive components that are now no longer factors.
(10:36):
I don't think so he'll want to go to a winner.
He'll want to go to a place that he's very smart.
He want to go to place that probably you know,
he could highlight the showcases skills, but the most important
overarching component would be he wants the ability or be
with the group that he knows can win and went
on a consistent basis. It's gonna be fascinating to the
(10:58):
plays out. I was told that the Angels expected the
sale process once are Marino said the team would be
sold probably anywhere between six to nine months, which probably
brings us close to that trade deadline. Next year, a
new owner comes in. Maybe it's a Steve Cohen type
who has a ton of money and wants to invest
more in Otani and keep him. Or maybe it's a
(11:19):
situation like Juan Soto, or an organization just sees an
immediate ability to rebuild the franchise with multiple players. It'll
be fascinating to see. Uh. It's important for the Angels
obviously to get off to a good start either way
next season. But I agree with you on Tyler Anderson.
That was a great signing. We love the changes he
made with the Dodgers, so we'll see where that goes. Hey,
(11:41):
we're gonna take a quick break when we come back.
I told you we're gonna talk about older managers. What's
going on in the game. Joe Madden is gonna tell
us when we get back. Welcome back to the Book
of Joe podcast. Did you see the Manager of the
(12:01):
Year awards handed out this week? Buckshew Walter and Terry
frank ConA. Maybe not a surprise, but he've got show
Walter at sixty six years old, frank ConA at sixty three,
coming off a World Series in which we had Dusty
Baker at seventy three years old, Rob Thompson at fifty
nine years old, and you had Bob Melvin playing for
the National League Pennant at sixty one years old. You
(12:24):
had Brian Snicker last year winning the World Series at
sixty seven years old, and now the Rangers have hired
Bruce Bocci at sixty seven years old. Joe is the
pendulum swinging back to begin to value experience again. I
like that word over older managers and more experienced managers.
(12:44):
Let's go there. Yeah, I don't know. Yes, this year,
this coming year is gonna have a lot to say
with that, I believe, Um, these guys are really good
at their craft. Every guy you mentioned there has put
in a lot of time developing and honing his skills.
A lot of these guys really go back to the
minor leagues as minor league grunts, which I really had
entify with. And believe I can tell you this much.
(13:06):
When I'm managing a game and the guy and the
other dugout has had a lot of minor league experience,
it's obvious, Um, you just got to keep up with
more stuff. This goes back even to when I first started.
There's Jimmy Leland and the other dugout and it's like
when you go to that game, you're you're more concerned
about what Jimmy Leland's thinking as opposed to just really
bearing down on the game. I mean there's something there's uh,
(13:28):
I don't know what's intimidation, but there's a high respect
factor going with all of that UM. So I'm a
big proponent of that, and again it's gonna come down
to what organizations seek. I'm really happy for their success
Tito and Buck. Congratulate both of them. They're good friends.
I think it's wonderful. And even Brandon Hyde being involved
in that hiders a little bit younger than that, but
(13:49):
I was so pleased that he got mentioned as much
as he had. So again, it's just gonna come down
to again this year, I think the way the season
um plays out, and and how much uh responsibilities given
to the managers, and then how much it's recognized that
maybe the o their way. It's not just about how
(14:10):
you use your bullpen. It's about everything else that you
do in the clubhouts conversationally, uh, you know, philosophically, I mean,
how you run a camp and and what do you,
what do you perceive to be important? And how how
well does your team carry out those fundamentals during the season,
and really, how do you value that those fundamentals and
how important do you think they are to your success?
(14:32):
I mean, these these are the questions that groups have
to answer. And I'm telling you, I don't buck really well,
and I uh and I know too, I mean, and
and of course I don't boat. I mean, these guys
are going to demand all that stuff, So what do
you want? Do you want that or you want the
less experience, where then you may rely on other components
or factors that you think will just take care of
(14:53):
itself and not really recognize the importance of that steady
hand in the clubhouse. Yeah, you know, Joe. My experience
these last few years has been that the more experience
its manager can really impact the postseason. Uh in the
smaller sample size when he, let's face it, the heat
of the moment gets even hotter. And I've seen some
(15:13):
of the younger managers rely more on the script, so
to speak, and and based on analytics, which is really
the safe way to go, especially if you have a
very influential front office in terms of how a game
is run. So it just as an example here. I
love what Rob Thompson did. I know a lot of
people were talking about his lineup and why is Bryce
Harper hitting fourth? He should be up there in the
(15:35):
first inning, making sure he gets up there, you know,
at the first time around against the picture. But you know,
Rob Thompson said it's working. He went to the players,
they were happy with the way it was chasing. These
little incremental edges don't always work in the small sample
of the postseason. And I think about Aaron Bone, who
was very much run by analytics. The Ekes lineup seemed
to change every day. I mean, Judges hitting second, then
(15:57):
he's hitting first, kind of a leftist shortstop, then he's
not the shortstop. Clay Holmes can't pitch the third day
in a row, and there was some miscommunication there. So
you know, sometimes that can create more problem than experienced
manager is just going to go by what he sees.
I shouldn't say just go by what he sees, but
at least we'll fold that into the decision making process.
So I think these guys can impact the postseason, maybe
(16:19):
more than the regular season. And Joe, you had something
really interesting. We have this in our book, The Book
of Joe Podcast about the better the team is and
the more important the games become, the more the analytical
people want to get involved. I thought that was fascinating,
and maybe the reverse tends to be true, that maybe
that's the time you need to rely more on experience.
(16:42):
It's true. Um, you know, you get to the end
of the year, and you know you've worked so hard
and you're playing the same teams again in the playoffs
that you played all year. Then all of a sudden,
there comes to even more volumes of information to digest.
And truly, I mean, we're just we're talking about it's
a it's a it's a harder moment, it's a distinct moment.
It's the playoffs. Everybody's watching. You've been trying to get
here for years, and it's it's it is the small
(17:04):
sample size, it's a micro it's not the macro man.
And in that moment, things change rather quickly and you
just can't rely on these large numbers. You definitely need
to be more into trends at this particular point. Um. Yeah,
I've I've always wanted less info and not more info.
This time of the year. I wanted, uh, just a
(17:25):
few nuggets for anybody to hold onto because again, we've
played these teams primarily. All you're like, if there's a
group that you really haven't seen often, or there's new people, yeah,
everybody wants that intel. But if it's a guy you've
seen for a bit, whether it's a hitter or a picture, um,
just remind me, Just give me a nice quick reminder
here and then permit the coaches to fill in the
(17:47):
blanks when it's necessary. So yeah, I I really believe that.
I believe when you go into those moments, less is
better than more. I believe in those moments that you
really have to be nimble, flexible and rely on what
you're seeing to make decisions based on this trend, this
the short term, this micro as opposed to a larger
sample size that will benefit you in November when you
(18:08):
want to acquire somebody all about it. Yeah, and you know,
one of the more fascinating cases going on right now
when we talk about perhaps the pendulum swinging back, is
in Houston, right the world champion Houston Astros. They don't
have a general manager right now. James Click was let go,
or at least he was offered a contract that was
really designed to turn down just a one year deal.
Jim Crane is taking that organization in a different direction.
(18:31):
Of course, Jim Jeff lu Now built that organization heavily
on analytics. But it seems now that people like Jeff Bagwell,
Craig Vigio, Reggie Jackson have a big say and how
that team is being run, and Jim Crane listens to them.
He's around the clubhouse a lot more. I think Jim
Crane saw a team that, yeah, analytics won, but it
also got them in trouble with sign stealing. It all
(18:51):
began with algorithms from their analytical group about how we
can decipher signs, and it grew into something far worse.
So he's more in control. In the name I'm hearing
right now who might be the next general manager of
the Astros is Brad how Smith. He's a guy who
told the A's he wasn't coming back to their coaching
staff this year. Of course, he's very good friends with
both back Well and Busio, having played there. Fascinating to
(19:12):
see that a team that we thought was on the
front lines in the analytical movement. Now maybe, and I
say maybe, going in a more balanced direction. Yeah, and
again I'm all about that too. I think that's wise.
I I met Mr Crane, I just don't conversationally no
clicker really well. James and I worked together in Tampa Bay,
and of course I know Dusty, but uh, it is
(19:34):
it's all about balance and I we don't know exactly
what the conversations were like or why it led to
that particular momentum, although it does appear to me that
Mr Crane is looking it's just like you're saying, for
maybe a more traditional method in regards to getting this done,
utilizing the analytics in the where it really belongs. Like
I've said before, primarily I believe in the acquisitional area,
(19:58):
it's stellar. It doesn't make many mistakes. The thing, when
you talk about Houston's ascension, I think their defense really
got better. To run prevention got really better than that
is a heavy side of the analytical world. Where they're
pitching is so good and their players are normally standing
in the right spot, we catch line drives. I mean, see,
that's that's really what it comes down to. That you
get the right guys, you you lose a Korea And
(20:20):
here it comes Peen you lose a springer, and here
it comes to McCormick and and then Alonso goes to
left field and he holds that job down. Well, Uh,
Tucker sins. And of course Bregman was a great acquisition.
Moldonado not really good offensive player, but goes back there
and he's got a PhD In catching. And I don't
hand a picture so that there's a lot of old
(20:41):
school methods in this. But the reason when you talk
about analytically and lun and I don't again, I don't
know the process. But what they did, they're they're great
at run prevention. That's really what they're great at. And
then offensively they got some contact guys, guys that can
move the baseball. They had some pop, but they did
there's a lot of old school traditional stuff within that
if you really break it down. And I give him
(21:02):
a lot of credit, but you know, from clicks perspective,
I'm curious to speak to him at some point because
earlier in the year we were I was with the Angels,
yet we were playing him in Houston. I walked up
to when I said, you know, you guys got the
best team in the league. We're standing behind the batting
cage there and we talked about that, and James is
a really he's a good guy man. We used to
have great conversations. I know, is his wife Ace wonderful. Um,
(21:26):
So I'm curious and one of these days I'll get
to find out exactly what went on, because obviously there's
always more to it than the what appears to be
on the surface. Yeah, it's I agree on James Clark.
He did a great job there. Maybe just the fit
is not right for Jim Crane, but I'm sure he
will land somewhere and do well elsewhere as well. Um.
And finally, the last point for me on the Astros, Joe,
(21:47):
you mentioned there kind of a little blended old school
new school, but I think it shows up especially in
the postseason. It's remarkable to me that the Houston Astros
have essentially played the equivalent of a season in the
postseason the last six years. Their winning percentage of six
ten equated to playing at a hundred win pace. You're
talking about postseason baseball. And it was Billy Bean who
(22:08):
famously said, Hey, my stuff doesn't work in the postseason.
It's the postseason is a crapshoot. All our analytics go
away because it's a small sample size. And yet the
Astros are saying, no, no, wait, we can control a
lot of things like putting the ball and play, like
trusting our starting picture a third time through the lineup,
like playing good defense. There's a reason the Astros have
played six ten baseball in the postseason for six years,
(22:30):
within eighty games, and it's not because of luck. You've
seen that team play and it was a great call
on your part to see it early in the season
last year that it was the best team in baseball. Yeah,
you're right. I mean, that's that's a great uh breakdown
of exactly what occurs. Um. So when you're gonna build
your team, did you build your team for the playoffs?
And what we're just talking about their strident real stuff.
(22:52):
They got pictures, You got starting pictures that could go
more deeply in the games, which takes a burden off
your league pictures have been pitching all year there there's
they're normally fatigued by that time. But if you can
carry one more time through the batting water, that makes
them all better all season long. I love the the
contact component of the whole thing too. Whereas you just
can't go up there at home run walk, uh, strikeout.
(23:12):
These guys don't like the strikeout and they want to
move the baseball and they know there's there's different situations.
I've talked about this a lot. There's the different buckets
about the strikeout. It's not just one site fits all.
Run around there lesson to outs of strikeout really stinks,
run around second base, nobody out of strikeout really stinks.
Nobody on the two outs. I'm okay with the strikeout.
I mean, there's there's different reasons there, different methods to
(23:34):
attack a picture. A walk is always good in the
sense that you have you established your strike zone. And
rememb me when you get at the end of the
year and you have a balance between your walks and
your strikeouts, you're probably hitting to your potentials which are
capable of doing and maybe not be a three here,
you might be a solid two. But I'd like to
see a balance among all of that. Defense man, and
(23:55):
that reminds me of something Dusty Baker told me. Now,
a lot of people kind of miscast him as anti
analytics is just because he has some much experience. It's
they kind of overplay that angle. But he said listen.
I have my own system of analytics when it comes
to hitting. And what he does is he keeps track
of when there's a guy's second base less than two
outs or with nobody out, does the guy move him
(24:17):
over runner on third less than two outs? Does he
get him in runners in scoring position? Does he put
the ball in play and deliver runners? And he has
this little system, this a little math system where he
has points that he adds and subtracts based on whether
the hitter came through or not. It's the first time
I heard about this. Dusty was telling me this story
the postseason and he said there was one guy in
his team who came out on the positive side. He said,
(24:40):
that's my best clutch hitter, and it was Alex Bregman.
I thought that was great that, but Dusty Baker had
his own way of sort of measuring what it takes
to be a clutch hitter. Pretty cool. Yeah, I mean
I had the same set with the Angels even back
in the Instruction League in the nineteen eighties, and they
gave it to Jeremy Reid, and a couple of years
ago we were implementing it to the point where I
(25:01):
was giving got a nice bottle of wine after win
and winning game to the guy that had the best
point total during the offensively during the course of that game.
It's funny you wrote you're talking about that. I wrote
this a couple of days ago, and I don't know
if I've talked shared it with you yet. But experiences,
the experiences, you're analytical background that's necessary, always running in
the background, always uh permits the recognition of nuance, the
(25:24):
ability to adjust on the fly. That's that's experience is
an analytical too, and nobody recognizes that. When you have that,
it's always running back here it's always that, or even
in the RAM the part of the random axis memory
of your head um, it's always running. So experience has
an analytical component to it that's not given nearly enough credit.
(25:46):
Well said, Hey, we need to take a quick break,
and when we get back, we're gonna talk about Glue guys.
Gil Madden will explain Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Podcas asked glue guys. This time of year, Joe and
(26:07):
teams are on the market looking for players. It seems
to be I think, and I know you do. I
think especially important. But first let's define it right. What
is a glue guy? Yeah, I was, I was thinking
about We've talked about this as you're alluding to Um.
First of all, glue guys there are leaders, aren't they.
I mean, glue guys have a leadership component to them.
(26:27):
That doesn't mean they have to be the star of
the team, but when in fact he is the star
of the team. That makes it even better, but doesn't
have to be the glue guys, it's part of it.
It's their personality, UM. And they're always working in the background,
there are they When they walk in the in the clubhouse,
they see things that nobody else recognizes. Somebody's in the
(26:47):
somebody's down, or something just something off with a particular player,
maybe something that occurred in the game the day before
that he really needs to bring to this person's attention,
normally something that went arise. Sometimes it could be something
that was good. But he's always working UM in the background, always,
and he's has this ability to connect with others and
a lot of that's probably great listening skills, but again,
(27:10):
it's like this antenna that goes up. You're you're able
to recognize when something's arry with somebody. Else. Um it is.
It's another sense. And for those that um uh poo pooh,
that that that notion, that's just because you don't have it.
Um it's a It's again it's ability to recognize when
something's um just awry within the group. And it's very
(27:32):
difficult to measure that. You have to be passionate. That
this person has got to be passionate about what he's
saying and it's got to be felt. It's it's almost
um it's a visceral. He doesn't have to be a
visceral component, doesn't have to be eloquent, but um, it's
just something that needs that has been felt, that needs
to be given to the rest of the group, either individually,
(27:53):
which it can be, or as a group. Level five guy.
All this guy uh wants to do is whin. He's
at that point in his career. And again, it doesn't
mean he has to be thirty three, thirty four with
the great back of a baseball card. It's just I'll
tell a guy that I really liked was Jared Wallace
with the Angels. Jared just started made the All Star
team last not this year, but the year before. While
(28:15):
she's got great respect among that group because of the
way communicates and handles difficult moments. As an example, I thought,
while she was really good in that clubhouse in Anaheim, Uh,
guys like we're talking, we're gonna talk about Rizzo and
even think David Fletcher, Rossi and Hayward with the with
the Cubs. I think Tony Camp with the A'SU does
(28:35):
a nice job and Schwerber demonstrated that this year and
with the Phillies and Tommulas Stella. As another example, utilizing
guys that I've been with, Tommy Law incredible the kind
of work he does on a daily basis when he
walks in the clubhouse. But these guys recognize see field
things that the other group doesn't necessarily pay attention to.
(28:56):
You can't just be about yourself to be a glue guy. Yeah,
my experience is the same Joe that to be a
glue guy, it takes the power of empathy. You have
to feel for other people and see things from outside
of your perspective. Now, if you don't, there's nothing wrong
with that. As you know that there's a lot of
just self starters who who need to stay in their
own bubble. That's the way they need to operate. It
(29:19):
doesn't make them bad guys. It just means that they
need those other people to be the mortar of a
team or the glue of a team to bring them together.
And you mentioned a couple right there. I think we
would be remiss if we didn't pay particular attention to
Jason Hayward and Anthony Rizzo, both of the news this week.
Of course, the Cubs just said goodbye to to Jason Hayward.
He had one more year left on his contract but
(29:39):
just doesn't fit and where they are right now, he'll
always be remembered, I think with the Cubs, not just
for that Game seven meeting during the rain delay, but
for being a great teammate, which is a very powerful
legacy that will be remembered beyond whatever his numbers were
with the Cubs. And then Rizzo signing back with the
New York Yankees. The Yankees understood this is a very
(29:59):
important piece of their puzzle. The left handed hitter, for sure,
very good defender at first base, yes, but he's the
glue of that team. And I'll give you an example.
They're hitting coach Dylan Lawston told me stories about how
Anthony really connected with Aaron Judge and Aaron Judge is
he's the heart and soul of the team because he's
such a good player. He's such a respected teammate, but
(30:22):
he's not really a vocal guy around others. He is
very diligent about what he does and you want him
on your team, but it takes a guy like Rizzo
to bring out the best in him. And Dylan Lawston
was telling me Anthony would go up to him before
a game and say, a big guy, if you don't
get your two hits, and if one of them not
a home run, we ain't winning today. And Judge would
(30:44):
be able to laugh about it because Anthony has that
way about him to say the right thing and put
a smile on your face and not feel like you're
being challenged by what he is saying. So empathy, sense
of humor, the ability to connect with others so important.
So if I'm a general manager and I'm houring a
free agent market, you better be darn sure there's a
(31:07):
box there for me to check on what else am
I getting from this player? Besides the numbers? You know
you're right. I mean, the part of it is he
just broke through that crusty nous of the Yankees and
permitted them to relax. That's what I see from Anthony,
and that's why he was so pertinent to their to
the to the how well they played this year and
how deeply that they got. I totally believe that. Then
(31:28):
you just said something that I was gonna bring up there.
I I don't understand why more guys don't pay attention
to acquiring guys just for that reason. I think it's
so important to my first when THEO Tom we got
David Ross, I was in my sixty sixty seven Galaxy parked.
I pulled over in the side of the road conversation
with David Ross, and after I didn't know David, after
(31:49):
five minutes, I knew this is exactly what we needed
with the Cubs to really get to the next level. Um,
when I was at the Raise in two thousand seven
into eight offseason, here came Cliff Floyd, Eric Kinsky and
Troy Persval that I mean Hinsky and employd part time players,
really pertinent. But then Percy was the closer until he
(32:10):
got hurt. But these are the guys that put you
over the top. These are the guys that within the clubhouse,
no we don't do that here, or yes, let's let's
do that here, and he kind of blesses it and
permits everybody else to relax and just move on. Sense
of humor is important, man, sense of humor, not taking
yourself too seriously is really important to all of us.
(32:31):
And I know that that's what Anthony brought to that group.
And again for all the groups out there that if
you're putting your your team together, don't ever overlook that
everybody wants uh and we all want the best of everything.
You want the best hitting coach, the best pitching coach,
the best short stuff whatever, the best backup catcher. But
don't don't overlook that this is a position that really
(32:54):
can add up to more wins. And it's really it's
really beneficial after some tough losses or after a little
when you're in a bad street, the glue guy, you
can get out and and say something to bring guys together,
just take him out to dinner or whatever. That really
helps you, uh uh, regain your momentum, regain your thought process,
get you back to where you had been. I'm all
(33:16):
about these guys. Yeah, and let's again talk about Jason
Hayward because I again, we talked about that meeting during
the rain delay Game seven of the World Series. But
as you know, Joe, you had conversations with Jason during
that series explaining why he wasn't in the starting lineup,
and you talk about as being a situation where it
would be easy to go into that woe is me h,
(33:39):
you know that shell and kind of check out, and
this is a guy not starting is the one who's
getting the team together to remind them, Hey, guys, we're
the better team here. We got here for a reason,
We're the best team. We're going to win. Let's not
lose sight of that. I mean, you talk about being
able to see outside of whatever your own issues are.
I mean, listen, I don't want to make too big
(33:59):
a deal out of it, Joe, but I think that
will go down as a classic exam bull of a
guy being a glue guy and seeing what's best for
the team and not himself. Yeah, we had some really
hard conversations that that postseason, and it goes back to
one of the things we've talked about. I've always said,
if I tell you the truth, you might like me
for a week or two, But if I allow to
(34:19):
You're gonna hate me forever. So we had some tough conversation,
and I think it's a big part of that particular
job as a manager, as a coach and major league coach,
you have to have some difficult conversations and you have
to be straight up. And we were in our conversations
with Jeff j Hayward and I and eventually that You're right.
At least at this moment, he could have he could
have folded up. Why I'm you know, screw these guys.
(34:43):
I'm not I'm not even playing. Why should I even
attempt to help in any way, even though I recognize
um at this particular juncture is something needs to be said,
And he really felt within his sain you I got this.
I know exactly what needs to be said right now,
and I'm gonna do it. That's bold, that takes that
takes some or there's a fearlessness about that. That is
(35:05):
true leadership to me. And of course, uh, I'm on
a on a book signing tour right now, and I'm
getting all these accolades that people are very nice, But
I don't even know to what extent or how much
percentage lies in the fact that that j Ward had
this wherewithal in this thought process and its leadership ability
to call them in that room and all of a
sudden everything changed. Uh and I really respect that a lot.
(35:28):
So yeah, God bless the Glue guys man. They can
make a huge difference in organization. Yeah, and I won't
surprise anybody to hear that Jason Hayward is is still
a glue guy even though he's no longer with the Cubs.
He's doing a lot in terms of providing opportunities and
financial resources for youngsters in Chicago, especially underserved families to
(35:49):
give them opportunities to play the game of baseball. So
he is again seeing outside of himself and contributing to
this game on a macro scale. So kudos to Jason Hayward.
So this is something Joe, I think we can always explore.
I'd like to make it a regular point of this
podcast or we talk about glue guys. Maybe get some
Glue guys on here to explain how it is what
(36:10):
they do. So I think it's something as you, being
a three time manager the year, understand that these guys
are important to to what you do. So how about
we make this a kind of a regular gig. I
love it. I've already written down some names. I'm gonna
try to get some phone calls or text out there
to try to grab some of these dudes come on
the show with us. I've reached out to Anthony, and
(36:31):
Anthony sure to be that he's gonna eventually do this
and in the near future, so I've got to get
back to him. I haven't had the chance to congratulate
him yet on being a Yankee again. So I think
Anthony be a perfect first guy to attempt to have
on our show. You love it. And by the way,
who would be the glue guy of the E Street Band.
It's you know, you think about being in a rock
(36:53):
and roll and having a band that stays together as
long as they have I mean back in the day,
I mean, was it Max Weinberg? Was it? I mean
Clarence Clemens would put us mile on anybody's face. I'm
not sure he's the most vocal guy, but everybody loved
being around him. And then you got the boss himself.
I mean, as you said, when your star is the
glue guy, that's the best of all worlds. Yeah, I mean,
(37:15):
of course, um, Bruce has got to be right there.
But I thought the same thing I thought Max, and
I thought Clarence, I really did when when you originally
asked that question. But then I went to the drummer.
The drummer isn't at the heartbeat of the whole group.
I've gotten to know Max. Max is now caught honorary
degree from Lafayette. He came in with my buddy Willie
(37:35):
for with the B Street Band, and they came and
did a gig at Lafayette at Z my fraternity house.
After the Steen World Series, I went back here for
the Lehigh game and Max came and played. He was
was up on the on the stage there with Willie
and his group. And then at that time he let it,
you know, and he wanted to go to Lafayette College
this whole time growing up, and then eventually think he
(37:55):
became a commencement speaker and uh and then now a
graduate of Lafayette College. So I'm going for Max just
based on being a Leopard to I. I love that,
I love the fact that he's the heartbeat of the group.
I love that we'll have to get one of those
E Street guys on here one of these days and
talk about it. We get Max. Look, get Max. You
gotta he's gotta, he's gotta accommodate a leopard. He's a
(38:18):
Jersey guy, right right. I'll get in touch. I got it,
got a good connection. I'll get in touch with Max.
I would love to hear that, like the similarities between
being in a band and being in a baseball team,
that kind of teamwork and what being a glue guy means.
I can't wait. We'll devote it's higher podcast episode to that.
An We'll go get Max. We'll get him on here.
(38:39):
I'm in, I'm in. I'm gonna start it today right
after we hang up. That's awesome. Always pleasure, Joe, you
got something to leave us with as we get out
of here, I do thank you. Always a pleasure, Manu.
Jay and I went to Lambertville down the New Hope,
New Hope, Pennsylvania, Lambert Deals across the bridge, um in Jersey, Pennsylvania. Beautiful,
magnificent area, and was our anniversary. Stopped in this cool
(39:00):
little shop and um it's called Zinc. Really wonderful, and
I picked up this little leather bound book for my
own personal notes. I'm doing a lot of writing in here.
But there's a quote from St Francis of Assisi, who
is a big part of the book Wayne Dyer's Wisdom
of the Ages. He has like three or four pages
devoted to him. But I thought this was great, and
that's why I got it. He who works with his
(39:22):
hands as a laborer, he who works with his hands
and his head as a craftsman, He who works with
his hands and his head and his heart as an artist.
And that was from St Francis of Assisi. I love that, beautiful, malicious.
Let's see you next time, all right, brother. Thanks. The
(39:48):
Book of Joe podcast is a production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My
Heart Radio. Hey We're back. It's Tom Berducci and Joe
Madden with another episode of the Book of Joe podcast.
Of course, it is based on the actual Book of Joe.
It's out now and available wherever you buy your books.
(00:26):
Whether you want the print version or the audio version,
you will absolutely love it. Joe. How you doing. I'm good, Tommy.
I'm here in Chicago. We represented yesterday at the Union League,
really nice luncheon. David Hall helped out with the interview
on stage, kind of like the fireside chat thing, and
we sold over two hundred there and the people were great.
And then last night I went with the Downers Grove
(00:47):
which was truly incredible. It's a suburb, beautiful area and
over seven d there that that really blew me away.
People were standing in line outside. It was cold, so
it's a very very humbling moment for all of that,
but it was a great experience. So it's always great
to get back through the Chicago a little cold today,
but I've enjoyed my state. Yeah, it's it's so interesting, Joe,
(01:09):
when you're out and about and you get reactions from
people about the book, and of course we had an
event at book Ends in Ridgewood, New Jersey recently, and
it really warns my heart that people are coming to
this book who are not necessarily baseball fans, or maybe
not hardcore baseball fans. I think everybody's pulling something different
out of it, whether it's life lessons, whether it's leadership lessons.
(01:30):
I've had a lot of feedback from people in the
business world about, you know, how to manage people and
how to connect with people. So I think it's really
cool that, Yeah, a baseball fan is going to love it,
there's no doubt about it. But the audience for this
book seems to be really broad, very cool. Yeah, that
happened again yesterday, the whole day both places. Um, it's
just incredible. I mean, I'm looking out the window right
now being here, it was here for five years and
(01:52):
just very quickly reminded what I loved the place so much.
And a lot of it has to do with the people.
I mean, these folks were buntled up state in Line,
came through very brief encounter, but god, they were so
up appreciated. Even in the exchange was very warm and sincere.
So sometimes you know we we we forget rather too quickly,
and that was great to be reminded by the fans
(02:14):
of the Cubs and the people of Chicago. Was just
a wonderful experience from me on a personal level. Well,
a lot to get into in the course of this
episode of the Book of Joe podcast, we're gonna talk
about glue guys for you d I wires out there
will explain what that is. And we'll also talk about
older managers, which I think Joe will be happy to
chime in on. And we need to talk about Show
(02:36):
Hey Otani. There's some great insight from you, Joe into
Show Hey Otani in your time managing him. And of
course he is up for the American League m VP Award,
which will be handed out later tonight Thursday night, most
likely going to Aaron Judge. But we need to talk
more about Show Hey Otani because I hope people out
there do not take for granted what this young man
(02:59):
is doing and his talent level and his dedication to
this game. We will never see anything like this again, unless,
of course it's Show Hey does it again. So Joe,
you know him well, you were the one who really
took the reins off him and as you said, never
stand in the way of greatness. He took off some
of the governors that were on him where the angels
were trying to protect him physically. He has certainly responded
(03:20):
to that by just being a pure baseball player. Give
me an insight on what motivates show hey Otani to
be elite at this level. Yeah, he Um, he came
here for a purpose. He came here to be a
to a baseball player. He came here to be the
best player in the game. Um, he's just motivated, motivated
to be the best at what he does, and that's
both pitching and hitting pretty simply as a baseball player.
(03:43):
There's there's nothing else really, I don't think in his
life that distracts him from that. Him and he paid
live really close to the ballpark there in Anaheim, and
he's there all the time. I mean, whether it's to
be rehab the bit or just get ready for a game, whatever,
or just extra work, whatever it may be. It's just
the motivations on another level. This guy truly does want
to be great, and he is great already. But that's it.
(04:06):
I mean, it's very uncomplicated. Is that do simple better
method or moment. He um came here for a reason, man,
And in the beginning, of course, I was not given
that opportunities. As we did take the reins off as
you suggested, it just became he went from like a
little bit. I don't once they introverted, but he wasn't.
You could sense he wasn't as happy as to when
(04:26):
he was given the opportunity to really attempt to fulfill
his destiny and play both sides at the baseball and
play often and not as many days off, etcetera. Uh,
and we're all worried about guys getting hurt, and you
know what happens. Guys get hurt, bodies get hurt. So
it just was all of that just he needed to
be permitted in a sense to just let go go
do your thing. And he's responded beautifully. Yeah, of all,
(04:48):
I don't listen. There's an amazing amount of stats and
ways to look at the greatness of Shoheio Tani. This
is just one for me from the season. He threw
more pitches one miles an hour or more than any
other amount American League starting pitcher, and he hit more
baseballs one hundred miles an hour or greater than any
(05:11):
designated hitter in baseball. It's just crazy now for all
these people out there who are saying, well, show hey,
he should just specialize. Imagine how good he'd be as
a starter. Imagine how he'd be good just as a hitter.
No stop. The man came to this country, to major
League Baseball to do both, and as you I think
just highlighted there, Joe, he loves being a two way player.
(05:35):
Do not take that away from him. Would you ask
Bruce Springsteen to stop writing songs and just play music,
or just play music and don't write the songs. No,
this is a guy who's following his heart, so listen.
I don't know, Joe, if you are concerned at all
about physically show hey, holding up, But I know what's
in his heart. It seems like this is what he
wants to do, and this brings out the best of him,
(05:57):
not specializing. Yeah, that's that's the point right there. I
think he does better or will do better by being
permitted to do both. I think if you pigeonholed him
into one over the other, you're not going to see
the same performance. I think he needs the the diversion,
whether it's gonna pitch one day or hit for four
days or five days. He needs to be able to
(06:18):
park his mind in other areas to really try to
get the best out of what he does on that
particular day, whether it's an offensive player or that's the
day that he has to pitch. Um, it would really
injure him to not be able to I mean mentally
injure him, uh, to not be permitted to do both.
So it's one of those cases, man, it's it's it's
like this conventional wisdom component where you think, if we
(06:38):
took this away from him, he's gonna get better at this.
It's always one of those be careful what you wish
for moments. My my opinion is strongly and I thought
that's from the beginning when I first got there, I thought,
if we permitted him to do both, you're gonna see
better at both, because in the beginning he wasn't. And
like I said, it just reflecting his personalities. Joy for
the day. I can't wait to get there. I am
(06:58):
the best player in baseball based on the fact that
I'm doing two things, which is what I always wanted
to do. So, Um, if you listen, we just can't.
You just can't constantly worry about people getting hurt. And
that's a part of the daily conversation when it comes
to a lot of young players. And um, I've always
had a hard time with that. There are athletes you
can get hard driving her card to the ballpark. They
(07:19):
could get hurt just walking down the steps. Let him alone,
let him go play, and I think you're going to
see a better product. Well said, Now, can I put
you on the spot, joh, what's ahead for show Hey Otani?
Because I know the Angels have come out and said
they're not trading him this winter. Well, we know that
because the team is up for sale. You're not gonna
trade Otani, who was one of the great assets of
(07:40):
the organization when the team is on the market. Doesn't
make any sense. So that pushes the possible trade window
to next July because he would be a free agent
at the end of next season. So the Angels are
on the clock here. They essentially have the first three
months of next season to play competitive enough baseball to
convince show Hey Otani. Besides whatever the contract umber is
(08:04):
to remain with the Angels and listen, it's gonna be
difficult for anybody to sign shoe A Otani because there
are no comps to him, right, you just cannot compare him.
I mean basically, when I look at his numbers from two,
he's actually a compilation of last year's n l CY
Young Winner n m v P. You know, Corbin Burns
and Bryce Harper is So I mean, where the money goes,
(08:26):
we'll see. But tell me about Otani and what you
think he wants beyond next season. Because we knew he
came here and he immediately ruled out some of the
bigger market teams. He ruled out the East Coast. It
was important to him to do both as we talked
about in terms of pitching and hitting the show. Hey Otani,
who we have not seen play a postseason game yet,
burned to go to a winning team. Will he go
(08:49):
to a big market team? Give me a sense of
what you think is ahead for show, Hey Otani? Well,
I think first of all, the idea of him being
there for a couple of three months whatever at the
beginning of next year is wise. In regards to the
Angels on the Angel side, I mean they just got Anderson.
The picture that you look at their staff and I
like these guys a lot um and Perry does dig
lift handed pitching, and they have plenty of them, so, um,
(09:12):
that's interesting. And who knows what they may do at
short stop and when he Foth can repeat what he
did last year, and of course David Fletcher, who I loved.
So I think that's why it's to hold on to
that and see where it goes. Um. And also while
you're doing that, possibly build up the value of the franchise.
I don't know to what extent, but and again I
(09:32):
don't even know what Arty's intentions are this winter, so
that that would be number one. I think that's why
it is to hold on and see what occurs after that.
If if in fact it doesn't roll, well, I think, Um,
I know show he wants to win, he wants to
play winning baseball. Um, what else is there from on
an individual level, um, to accomplish. He's gonna receive his
(09:53):
money's gonna achieve level four, and but he's always been
in level five. All he wants to do is when
the difference is I think, excuse me is when he
first came over, the simity on the West coast to
Japan was very important to him. I think now that
he's understands the culture here better and he's been to
the different cities and he's got to know more people.
(10:14):
I think that opens up the whole uh continent to him.
I do um, and probably even into Canada. I'm not sure,
but UM. Anyway, the whole league now I think is open.
We're in the beginning. I don't think it was. The
whole league is now open now because the h is
um available in both leagues where it wasn't before. Uh.
Those are the kind of things that I think that
there was some restrictive components that are now no longer factors.
(10:36):
I don't think so he'll want to go to a winner.
He'll want to go to a place that he's very smart.
He want to go to place that probably you know,
he could highlight the showcases skills, but the most important
overarching component would be he wants the ability or be
with the group that he knows can win and went
on a consistent basis. It's gonna be fascinating to the
(10:58):
plays out. I was told that the Angels expected the
sale process once are Marino said the team would be
sold probably anywhere between six to nine months, which probably
brings us close to that trade deadline. Next year, a
new owner comes in. Maybe it's a Steve Cohen type
who has a ton of money and wants to invest
more in Otani and keep him. Or maybe it's a
(11:19):
situation like Juan Soto, or an organization just sees an
immediate ability to rebuild the franchise with multiple players. It'll
be fascinating to see. Uh. It's important for the Angels
obviously to get off to a good start either way
next season. But I agree with you on Tyler Anderson.
That was a great signing. We love the changes he
made with the Dodgers, so we'll see where that goes. Hey,
(11:41):
we're gonna take a quick break when we come back.
I told you we're gonna talk about older managers. What's
going on in the game. Joe Madden is gonna tell
us when we get back. Welcome back to the Book
of Joe podcast. Did you see the Manager of the
(12:01):
Year awards handed out this week? Buckshew Walter and Terry
frank ConA. Maybe not a surprise, but he've got show
Walter at sixty six years old, frank ConA at sixty three,
coming off a World Series in which we had Dusty
Baker at seventy three years old, Rob Thompson at fifty
nine years old, and you had Bob Melvin playing for
the National League Pennant at sixty one years old. You
(12:24):
had Brian Snicker last year winning the World Series at
sixty seven years old, and now the Rangers have hired
Bruce Bocci at sixty seven years old. Joe is the
pendulum swinging back to begin to value experience again. I
like that word over older managers and more experienced managers.
(12:44):
Let's go there. Yeah, I don't know. Yes, this year,
this coming year is gonna have a lot to say
with that, I believe, Um, these guys are really good
at their craft. Every guy you mentioned there has put
in a lot of time developing and honing his skills.
A lot of these guys really go back to the
minor leagues as minor league grunts, which I really had
entify with. And believe I can tell you this much.
(13:06):
When I'm managing a game and the guy and the
other dugout has had a lot of minor league experience,
it's obvious, Um, you just got to keep up with
more stuff. This goes back even to when I first started.
There's Jimmy Leland and the other dugout and it's like
when you go to that game, you're you're more concerned
about what Jimmy Leland's thinking as opposed to just really
bearing down on the game. I mean there's something there's uh,
(13:28):
I don't know what's intimidation, but there's a high respect
factor going with all of that UM. So I'm a
big proponent of that, and again it's gonna come down
to what organizations seek. I'm really happy for their success
Tito and Buck. Congratulate both of them. They're good friends.
I think it's wonderful. And even Brandon Hyde being involved
in that hiders a little bit younger than that, but
(13:49):
I was so pleased that he got mentioned as much
as he had. So again, it's just gonna come down
to again this year, I think the way the season
um plays out, and and how much uh responsibilities given
to the managers, and then how much it's recognized that
maybe the o their way. It's not just about how
(14:10):
you use your bullpen. It's about everything else that you
do in the clubhouts conversationally, uh, you know, philosophically, I mean,
how you run a camp and and what do you,
what do you perceive to be important? And how how
well does your team carry out those fundamentals during the season,
and really, how do you value that those fundamentals and
how important do you think they are to your success?
(14:32):
I mean, these these are the questions that groups have
to answer. And I'm telling you, I don't buck really well,
and I uh and I know too, I mean, and
and of course I don't boat. I mean, these guys
are going to demand all that stuff, So what do
you want? Do you want that or you want the
less experience, where then you may rely on other components
or factors that you think will just take care of
(14:53):
itself and not really recognize the importance of that steady
hand in the clubhouse. Yeah, you know, Joe. My experience
these last few years has been that the more experience
its manager can really impact the postseason. Uh in the
smaller sample size when he, let's face it, the heat
of the moment gets even hotter. And I've seen some
(15:13):
of the younger managers rely more on the script, so
to speak, and and based on analytics, which is really
the safe way to go, especially if you have a
very influential front office in terms of how a game
is run. So it just as an example here. I
love what Rob Thompson did. I know a lot of
people were talking about his lineup and why is Bryce
Harper hitting fourth? He should be up there in the
(15:35):
first inning, making sure he gets up there, you know,
at the first time around against the picture. But you know,
Rob Thompson said it's working. He went to the players,
they were happy with the way it was chasing. These
little incremental edges don't always work in the small sample
of the postseason. And I think about Aaron Bone, who
was very much run by analytics. The Ekes lineup seemed
to change every day. I mean, Judges hitting second, then
(15:57):
he's hitting first, kind of a leftist shortstop, then he's
not the shortstop. Clay Holmes can't pitch the third day
in a row, and there was some miscommunication there. So
you know, sometimes that can create more problem than experienced
manager is just going to go by what he sees.
I shouldn't say just go by what he sees, but
at least we'll fold that into the decision making process.
So I think these guys can impact the postseason, maybe
(16:19):
more than the regular season. And Joe, you had something
really interesting. We have this in our book, The Book
of Joe Podcast about the better the team is and
the more important the games become, the more the analytical
people want to get involved. I thought that was fascinating,
and maybe the reverse tends to be true, that maybe
that's the time you need to rely more on experience.
(16:42):
It's true. Um, you know, you get to the end
of the year, and you know you've worked so hard
and you're playing the same teams again in the playoffs
that you played all year. Then all of a sudden,
there comes to even more volumes of information to digest.
And truly, I mean, we're just we're talking about it's
a it's a it's a harder moment, it's a distinct moment.
It's the playoffs. Everybody's watching. You've been trying to get
here for years, and it's it's it is the small
(17:04):
sample size, it's a micro it's not the macro man.
And in that moment, things change rather quickly and you
just can't rely on these large numbers. You definitely need
to be more into trends at this particular point. Um. Yeah,
I've I've always wanted less info and not more info.
This time of the year. I wanted, uh, just a
(17:25):
few nuggets for anybody to hold onto because again, we've
played these teams primarily. All you're like, if there's a
group that you really haven't seen often, or there's new people, yeah,
everybody wants that intel. But if it's a guy you've
seen for a bit, whether it's a hitter or a picture, um,
just remind me, Just give me a nice quick reminder
here and then permit the coaches to fill in the
(17:47):
blanks when it's necessary. So yeah, I I really believe that.
I believe when you go into those moments, less is
better than more. I believe in those moments that you
really have to be nimble, flexible and rely on what
you're seeing to make decisions based on this trend, this
the short term, this micro as opposed to a larger
sample size that will benefit you in November when you
(18:08):
want to acquire somebody all about it. Yeah, and you know,
one of the more fascinating cases going on right now
when we talk about perhaps the pendulum swinging back, is
in Houston, right the world champion Houston Astros. They don't
have a general manager right now. James Click was let go,
or at least he was offered a contract that was
really designed to turn down just a one year deal.
Jim Crane is taking that organization in a different direction.
(18:31):
Of course, Jim Jeff lu Now built that organization heavily
on analytics. But it seems now that people like Jeff Bagwell,
Craig Vigio, Reggie Jackson have a big say and how
that team is being run, and Jim Crane listens to them.
He's around the clubhouse a lot more. I think Jim
Crane saw a team that, yeah, analytics won, but it
also got them in trouble with sign stealing. It all
(18:51):
began with algorithms from their analytical group about how we
can decipher signs, and it grew into something far worse.
So he's more in control. In the name I'm hearing
right now who might be the next general manager of
the Astros is Brad how Smith. He's a guy who
told the A's he wasn't coming back to their coaching
staff this year. Of course, he's very good friends with
both back Well and Busio, having played there. Fascinating to
(19:12):
see that a team that we thought was on the
front lines in the analytical movement. Now maybe, and I
say maybe, going in a more balanced direction. Yeah, and
again I'm all about that too. I think that's wise.
I I met Mr Crane, I just don't conversationally no
clicker really well. James and I worked together in Tampa Bay,
and of course I know Dusty, but uh, it is
(19:34):
it's all about balance and I we don't know exactly
what the conversations were like or why it led to
that particular momentum, although it does appear to me that
Mr Crane is looking it's just like you're saying, for
maybe a more traditional method in regards to getting this done,
utilizing the analytics in the where it really belongs. Like
I've said before, primarily I believe in the acquisitional area,
(19:58):
it's stellar. It doesn't make many mistakes. The thing, when
you talk about Houston's ascension, I think their defense really
got better. To run prevention got really better than that
is a heavy side of the analytical world. Where they're
pitching is so good and their players are normally standing
in the right spot, we catch line drives. I mean, see,
that's that's really what it comes down to. That you
get the right guys, you you lose a Korea And
(20:20):
here it comes Peen you lose a springer, and here
it comes to McCormick and and then Alonso goes to
left field and he holds that job down. Well, Uh,
Tucker sins. And of course Bregman was a great acquisition.
Moldonado not really good offensive player, but goes back there
and he's got a PhD In catching. And I don't
hand a picture so that there's a lot of old
(20:41):
school methods in this. But the reason when you talk
about analytically and lun and I don't again, I don't
know the process. But what they did, they're they're great
at run prevention. That's really what they're great at. And
then offensively they got some contact guys, guys that can
move the baseball. They had some pop, but they did
there's a lot of old school traditional stuff within that
if you really break it down. And I give him
(21:02):
a lot of credit, but you know, from clicks perspective,
I'm curious to speak to him at some point because
earlier in the year we were I was with the Angels,
yet we were playing him in Houston. I walked up
to when I said, you know, you guys got the
best team in the league. We're standing behind the batting
cage there and we talked about that, and James is
a really he's a good guy man. We used to
have great conversations. I know, is his wife Ace wonderful. Um,
(21:26):
So I'm curious and one of these days I'll get
to find out exactly what went on, because obviously there's
always more to it than the what appears to be
on the surface. Yeah, it's I agree on James Clark.
He did a great job there. Maybe just the fit
is not right for Jim Crane, but I'm sure he
will land somewhere and do well elsewhere as well. Um.
And finally, the last point for me on the Astros, Joe,
(21:47):
you mentioned there kind of a little blended old school
new school, but I think it shows up especially in
the postseason. It's remarkable to me that the Houston Astros
have essentially played the equivalent of a season in the
postseason the last six years. Their winning percentage of six
ten equated to playing at a hundred win pace. You're
talking about postseason baseball. And it was Billy Bean who
(22:08):
famously said, Hey, my stuff doesn't work in the postseason.
It's the postseason is a crapshoot. All our analytics go
away because it's a small sample size. And yet the
Astros are saying, no, no, wait, we can control a
lot of things like putting the ball and play, like
trusting our starting picture a third time through the lineup,
like playing good defense. There's a reason the Astros have
played six ten baseball in the postseason for six years,
(22:30):
within eighty games, and it's not because of luck. You've
seen that team play and it was a great call
on your part to see it early in the season
last year that it was the best team in baseball. Yeah,
you're right. I mean, that's that's a great uh breakdown
of exactly what occurs. Um. So when you're gonna build
your team, did you build your team for the playoffs?
And what we're just talking about their strident real stuff.
(22:52):
They got pictures, You got starting pictures that could go
more deeply in the games, which takes a burden off
your league pictures have been pitching all year there there's
they're normally fatigued by that time. But if you can
carry one more time through the batting water, that makes
them all better all season long. I love the the
contact component of the whole thing too. Whereas you just
can't go up there at home run walk, uh, strikeout.
(23:12):
These guys don't like the strikeout and they want to
move the baseball and they know there's there's different situations.
I've talked about this a lot. There's the different buckets
about the strikeout. It's not just one site fits all.
Run around there lesson to outs of strikeout really stinks,
run around second base, nobody out of strikeout really stinks.
Nobody on the two outs. I'm okay with the strikeout.
I mean, there's there's different reasons there, different methods to
(23:34):
attack a picture. A walk is always good in the
sense that you have you established your strike zone. And
rememb me when you get at the end of the
year and you have a balance between your walks and
your strikeouts, you're probably hitting to your potentials which are
capable of doing and maybe not be a three here,
you might be a solid two. But I'd like to
see a balance among all of that. Defense man, and
(23:55):
that reminds me of something Dusty Baker told me. Now,
a lot of people kind of miscast him as anti
analytics is just because he has some much experience. It's
they kind of overplay that angle. But he said listen.
I have my own system of analytics when it comes
to hitting. And what he does is he keeps track
of when there's a guy's second base less than two
outs or with nobody out, does the guy move him
(24:17):
over runner on third less than two outs? Does he
get him in runners in scoring position? Does he put
the ball in play and deliver runners? And he has
this little system, this a little math system where he
has points that he adds and subtracts based on whether
the hitter came through or not. It's the first time
I heard about this. Dusty was telling me this story
the postseason and he said there was one guy in
his team who came out on the positive side. He said,
(24:40):
that's my best clutch hitter, and it was Alex Bregman.
I thought that was great that, but Dusty Baker had
his own way of sort of measuring what it takes
to be a clutch hitter. Pretty cool. Yeah, I mean
I had the same set with the Angels even back
in the Instruction League in the nineteen eighties, and they
gave it to Jeremy Reid, and a couple of years
ago we were implementing it to the point where I
(25:01):
was giving got a nice bottle of wine after win
and winning game to the guy that had the best
point total during the offensively during the course of that game.
It's funny you wrote you're talking about that. I wrote
this a couple of days ago, and I don't know
if I've talked shared it with you yet. But experiences,
the experiences, you're analytical background that's necessary, always running in
the background, always uh permits the recognition of nuance, the
(25:24):
ability to adjust on the fly. That's that's experience is
an analytical too, and nobody recognizes that. When you have that,
it's always running back here it's always that, or even
in the RAM the part of the random axis memory
of your head um, it's always running. So experience has
an analytical component to it that's not given nearly enough credit.
(25:46):
Well said, Hey, we need to take a quick break,
and when we get back, we're gonna talk about Glue guys.
Gil Madden will explain Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Podcas asked glue guys. This time of year, Joe and
(26:07):
teams are on the market looking for players. It seems
to be I think, and I know you do. I
think especially important. But first let's define it right. What
is a glue guy? Yeah, I was, I was thinking
about We've talked about this as you're alluding to Um.
First of all, glue guys there are leaders, aren't they.
I mean, glue guys have a leadership component to them.
(26:27):
That doesn't mean they have to be the star of
the team, but when in fact he is the star
of the team. That makes it even better, but doesn't
have to be the glue guys, it's part of it.
It's their personality, UM. And they're always working in the background,
there are they When they walk in the in the clubhouse,
they see things that nobody else recognizes. Somebody's in the
(26:47):
somebody's down, or something just something off with a particular player,
maybe something that occurred in the game the day before
that he really needs to bring to this person's attention,
normally something that went arise. Sometimes it could be something
that was good. But he's always working UM in the background, always,
and he's has this ability to connect with others and
a lot of that's probably great listening skills, but again,
(27:10):
it's like this antenna that goes up. You're you're able
to recognize when something's arry with somebody. Else. Um it is.
It's another sense. And for those that um uh poo pooh,
that that that notion, that's just because you don't have it.
Um it's a It's again it's ability to recognize when
something's um just awry within the group. And it's very
(27:32):
difficult to measure that. You have to be passionate. That
this person has got to be passionate about what he's
saying and it's got to be felt. It's it's almost
um it's a visceral. He doesn't have to be a
visceral component, doesn't have to be eloquent, but um, it's
just something that needs that has been felt, that needs
to be given to the rest of the group, either individually,
(27:53):
which it can be, or as a group. Level five guy.
All this guy uh wants to do is whin. He's
at that point in his career. And again, it doesn't
mean he has to be thirty three, thirty four with
the great back of a baseball card. It's just I'll
tell a guy that I really liked was Jared Wallace
with the Angels. Jared just started made the All Star
team last not this year, but the year before. While
(28:15):
she's got great respect among that group because of the
way communicates and handles difficult moments. As an example, I thought,
while she was really good in that clubhouse in Anaheim, Uh,
guys like we're talking, we're gonna talk about Rizzo and
even think David Fletcher, Rossi and Hayward with the with
the Cubs. I think Tony Camp with the A'SU does
(28:35):
a nice job and Schwerber demonstrated that this year and
with the Phillies and Tommulas Stella. As another example, utilizing
guys that I've been with, Tommy Law incredible the kind
of work he does on a daily basis when he
walks in the clubhouse. But these guys recognize see field
things that the other group doesn't necessarily pay attention to.
(28:56):
You can't just be about yourself to be a glue guy. Yeah,
my experience is the same Joe that to be a
glue guy, it takes the power of empathy. You have
to feel for other people and see things from outside
of your perspective. Now, if you don't, there's nothing wrong
with that. As you know that there's a lot of
just self starters who who need to stay in their
own bubble. That's the way they need to operate. It
(29:19):
doesn't make them bad guys. It just means that they
need those other people to be the mortar of a
team or the glue of a team to bring them together.
And you mentioned a couple right there. I think we
would be remiss if we didn't pay particular attention to
Jason Hayward and Anthony Rizzo, both of the news this week.
Of course, the Cubs just said goodbye to to Jason Hayward.
He had one more year left on his contract but
(29:39):
just doesn't fit and where they are right now, he'll
always be remembered, I think with the Cubs, not just
for that Game seven meeting during the rain delay, but
for being a great teammate, which is a very powerful
legacy that will be remembered beyond whatever his numbers were
with the Cubs. And then Rizzo signing back with the
New York Yankees. The Yankees understood this is a very
(29:59):
important piece of their puzzle. The left handed hitter, for sure,
very good defender at first base, yes, but he's the
glue of that team. And I'll give you an example.
They're hitting coach Dylan Lawston told me stories about how
Anthony really connected with Aaron Judge and Aaron Judge is
he's the heart and soul of the team because he's
such a good player. He's such a respected teammate, but
(30:22):
he's not really a vocal guy around others. He is
very diligent about what he does and you want him
on your team, but it takes a guy like Rizzo
to bring out the best in him. And Dylan Lawston
was telling me Anthony would go up to him before
a game and say, a big guy, if you don't
get your two hits, and if one of them not
a home run, we ain't winning today. And Judge would
(30:44):
be able to laugh about it because Anthony has that
way about him to say the right thing and put
a smile on your face and not feel like you're
being challenged by what he is saying. So empathy, sense
of humor, the ability to connect with others so important.
So if I'm a general manager and I'm houring a
free agent market, you better be darn sure there's a
(31:07):
box there for me to check on what else am
I getting from this player? Besides the numbers? You know
you're right. I mean, the part of it is he
just broke through that crusty nous of the Yankees and
permitted them to relax. That's what I see from Anthony,
and that's why he was so pertinent to their to
the to the how well they played this year and
how deeply that they got. I totally believe that. Then
(31:28):
you just said something that I was gonna bring up there.
I I don't understand why more guys don't pay attention
to acquiring guys just for that reason. I think it's
so important to my first when THEO Tom we got
David Ross, I was in my sixty sixty seven Galaxy parked.
I pulled over in the side of the road conversation
with David Ross, and after I didn't know David, after
(31:49):
five minutes, I knew this is exactly what we needed
with the Cubs to really get to the next level. Um,
when I was at the Raise in two thousand seven
into eight offseason, here came Cliff Floyd, Eric Kinsky and
Troy Persval that I mean Hinsky and employd part time players,
really pertinent. But then Percy was the closer until he
(32:10):
got hurt. But these are the guys that put you
over the top. These are the guys that within the clubhouse,
no we don't do that here, or yes, let's let's
do that here, and he kind of blesses it and
permits everybody else to relax and just move on. Sense
of humor is important, man, sense of humor, not taking
yourself too seriously is really important to all of us.
(32:31):
And I know that that's what Anthony brought to that group.
And again for all the groups out there that if
you're putting your your team together, don't ever overlook that
everybody wants uh and we all want the best of everything.
You want the best hitting coach, the best pitching coach,
the best short stuff whatever, the best backup catcher. But
don't don't overlook that this is a position that really
(32:54):
can add up to more wins. And it's really it's
really beneficial after some tough losses or after a little
when you're in a bad street, the glue guy, you
can get out and and say something to bring guys together,
just take him out to dinner or whatever. That really
helps you, uh uh, regain your momentum, regain your thought process,
get you back to where you had been. I'm all
(33:16):
about these guys. Yeah, and let's again talk about Jason
Hayward because I again, we talked about that meeting during
the rain delay Game seven of the World Series. But
as you know, Joe, you had conversations with Jason during
that series explaining why he wasn't in the starting lineup,
and you talk about as being a situation where it
would be easy to go into that woe is me h,
(33:39):
you know that shell and kind of check out, and
this is a guy not starting is the one who's
getting the team together to remind them, Hey, guys, we're
the better team here. We got here for a reason,
We're the best team. We're going to win. Let's not
lose sight of that. I mean, you talk about being
able to see outside of whatever your own issues are.
I mean, listen, I don't want to make too big
(33:59):
a deal out of it, Joe, but I think that
will go down as a classic exam bull of a
guy being a glue guy and seeing what's best for
the team and not himself. Yeah, we had some really
hard conversations that that postseason, and it goes back to
one of the things we've talked about. I've always said,
if I tell you the truth, you might like me
for a week or two, But if I allow to
(34:19):
You're gonna hate me forever. So we had some tough conversation,
and I think it's a big part of that particular
job as a manager, as a coach and major league coach,
you have to have some difficult conversations and you have
to be straight up. And we were in our conversations
with Jeff j Hayward and I and eventually that You're right.
At least at this moment, he could have he could
have folded up. Why I'm you know, screw these guys.
(34:43):
I'm not I'm not even playing. Why should I even
attempt to help in any way, even though I recognize
um at this particular juncture is something needs to be said,
And he really felt within his sain you I got this.
I know exactly what needs to be said right now,
and I'm gonna do it. That's bold, that takes that
takes some or there's a fearlessness about that. That is
(35:05):
true leadership to me. And of course, uh, I'm on
a on a book signing tour right now, and I'm
getting all these accolades that people are very nice, But
I don't even know to what extent or how much
percentage lies in the fact that that j Ward had
this wherewithal in this thought process and its leadership ability
to call them in that room and all of a
sudden everything changed. Uh and I really respect that a lot.
(35:28):
So yeah, God bless the Glue guys man. They can
make a huge difference in organization. Yeah, and I won't
surprise anybody to hear that Jason Hayward is is still
a glue guy even though he's no longer with the Cubs.
He's doing a lot in terms of providing opportunities and
financial resources for youngsters in Chicago, especially underserved families to
(35:49):
give them opportunities to play the game of baseball. So
he is again seeing outside of himself and contributing to
this game on a macro scale. So kudos to Jason Hayward.
So this is something Joe, I think we can always explore.
I'd like to make it a regular point of this
podcast or we talk about glue guys. Maybe get some
Glue guys on here to explain how it is what
(36:10):
they do. So I think it's something as you, being
a three time manager the year, understand that these guys
are important to to what you do. So how about
we make this a kind of a regular gig. I
love it. I've already written down some names. I'm gonna
try to get some phone calls or text out there
to try to grab some of these dudes come on
the show with us. I've reached out to Anthony, and
(36:31):
Anthony sure to be that he's gonna eventually do this
and in the near future, so I've got to get
back to him. I haven't had the chance to congratulate
him yet on being a Yankee again. So I think
Anthony be a perfect first guy to attempt to have
on our show. You love it. And by the way,
who would be the glue guy of the E Street Band.
It's you know, you think about being in a rock
(36:53):
and roll and having a band that stays together as
long as they have I mean back in the day,
I mean, was it Max Weinberg? Was it? I mean
Clarence Clemens would put us mile on anybody's face. I'm
not sure he's the most vocal guy, but everybody loved
being around him. And then you got the boss himself.
I mean, as you said, when your star is the
glue guy, that's the best of all worlds. Yeah, I mean,
(37:15):
of course, um, Bruce has got to be right there.
But I thought the same thing I thought Max, and
I thought Clarence, I really did when when you originally
asked that question. But then I went to the drummer.
The drummer isn't at the heartbeat of the whole group.
I've gotten to know Max. Max is now caught honorary
degree from Lafayette. He came in with my buddy Willie
(37:35):
for with the B Street Band, and they came and
did a gig at Lafayette at Z my fraternity house.
After the Steen World Series, I went back here for
the Lehigh game and Max came and played. He was
was up on the on the stage there with Willie
and his group. And then at that time he let it,
you know, and he wanted to go to Lafayette College
this whole time growing up, and then eventually think he
(37:55):
became a commencement speaker and uh and then now a
graduate of Lafayette College. So I'm going for Max just
based on being a Leopard to I. I love that,
I love the fact that he's the heartbeat of the group.
I love that we'll have to get one of those
E Street guys on here one of these days and
talk about it. We get Max. Look, get Max. You
gotta he's gotta, he's gotta accommodate a leopard. He's a
(38:18):
Jersey guy, right right. I'll get in touch. I got it,
got a good connection. I'll get in touch with Max.
I would love to hear that, like the similarities between
being in a band and being in a baseball team,
that kind of teamwork and what being a glue guy means.
I can't wait. We'll devote it's higher podcast episode to that.
An We'll go get Max. We'll get him on here.
(38:39):
I'm in, I'm in. I'm gonna start it today right
after we hang up. That's awesome. Always pleasure, Joe, you
got something to leave us with as we get out
of here, I do thank you. Always a pleasure, Manu.
Jay and I went to Lambertville down the New Hope,
New Hope, Pennsylvania, Lambert Deals across the bridge, um in Jersey, Pennsylvania. Beautiful,
magnificent area, and was our anniversary. Stopped in this cool
(39:00):
little shop and um it's called Zinc. Really wonderful, and
I picked up this little leather bound book for my
own personal notes. I'm doing a lot of writing in here.
But there's a quote from St Francis of Assisi, who
is a big part of the book Wayne Dyer's Wisdom
of the Ages. He has like three or four pages
devoted to him. But I thought this was great, and
that's why I got it. He who works with his
(39:22):
hands as a laborer, he who works with his hands
and his head as a craftsman, He who works with
his hands and his head and his heart as an artist.
And that was from St Francis of Assisi. I love that, beautiful, malicious.
Let's see you next time, all right, brother. Thanks. The
(39:48):
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