January 10, 2023 • 53 mins
The Book of Joe Podcast begins with hosts Tom Verducci and World Series Champion Joe Maddon welcoming Philadelphia Phillies Hitting Coach Kevin Long. Hear an interesting conversation about how some of the best hitters in the game get even better.
Kevin takes us through his playing career and making the transition to becoming a coach. Kevin explains how working with Carlos Beltran gave him confidence and how he started fundamental work by breaking down the swing of Barry Bonds. Tom highlights Kevin working with four different teams that all went to the World Series. Joe reveals what it was like working with specific hitters like Derek Jeter and Kyle Schwarber and how sometimes his job was being a psychologist to address issues on and off the field. We wrap up with a reading from 'The Book of Joe' where Kevin picks page 333, which addresses Joe's exit from the Cubs organization.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My
Heart Radio. Hey, welcome back to another episode of the
Book of Joe Podcast. You've come to the right place
if you want to learn a little bit about baseball leadership, teamwork,
(00:26):
and I don't know, maybe some rock and roll too.
This is Tom Berducci and I'm here with my good
buddy Joe Madden and Joe, I'm super excited about our
guest today. I think he's the best hitting coach in
the business, Kevin Long, Philadelphia, Phillies. Yeah. I've been around
Kevin for actually a long time, and I'm right it
now because Okay Long, I've actually scott at you in
(00:48):
nine when you're done at you have a I think
we've talked about this and uh I looked it up.
I have to be honest, just to get all the
correct teammates and Senter was there, j T was there,
Hoffey was there, Damon may Shore was there, Ericson who
I was really wanted to draft badly too, and of
course Aree Kindle and Jimmy Wing. Uh. I used to
wear out a path between my house up here and
Masa down Interstate. Tend to your ballpark down there and
(01:12):
this guy could hit. Uh, Tommy, this guy could hit.
I had him on my draft list. We never ended
up with Kansas City, I believe. But this goes way
back to the eighties and and I've watched his abilities
as a hitting coach from the other dugout. He was
with my buddy Davey Martinez winning World Series. Before that,
he beat us up with the Mets when Danny Murphy
(01:32):
was just unbelievable for four games against the Cubs. Anyway, Keeth,
thanks for coming on. It's great to have you on.
And I feel the same way. I really have a
lot of respect for you to do in your in
your job, and you're a wonderful guy on top of that. Well,
I appreciate it and I'm excited to talk a little
shot today. And those are those are fond memories going
back to U of A days and eight eighty nine.
(01:54):
Bunch of good dudes I played with you named a
bunch of them. We talk all the time. Just talked
to Hoffey. Gonna see Scott ericson shortly. I'll talk to
j T Know all the time. Demon May sure of
course was on that team. Off to him quite a bit.
But uh, I'm excited for today and excited to actually
talk with you guys and see what's up. Well, Kevin,
(02:17):
we have to point this out. Joe loved you so
much that you didn't get drafted until the thirty first
round by the Royals. I didn't have that much shoes
back then, babe, I didn't have that much choice. Hey, Tom,
I was going to bring that up, but I let
that one go. But you know what, seven you just
kind of grind and get through eight b s and
(02:37):
play baseball as you can, and thirty first round was
probably about right in all respect. You know, I think
that's that's that's fine and fair. I think I had
been for the thirties run Actually so well, Kevin. I'm
always interested in and origin stories and how guys who
are at the top of their business get there. And
for you, obviously, you get drafted by Kansas City, played
(02:59):
eight years in the minor leagues to seventy three hitter.
But there was a point I think it was and
you can tell the story. Um, when it was the
end of the road for you as a player and
you become a coach with the Wilmington Blue Rocks. You're
thirty years old. Tell me about that transition, because I
know no player was to hear that you're done, you
(03:19):
can't play anymore. No, and and that was my choice.
I was. I was gonna make the team, the Omaha
Royals team out of spring training. There was three days left,
and I sat down with my wife and I said,
you know what, I think I'm just wasting time right now.
I said, I'm twenty nine, and um, you know, I'm
just holding a job and I think I might have
(03:41):
more value as a coach. She said, ah, you promised
me you would get coaching. And I said, I really
have a strong passion for this. I think this is
my calling, um. And she said what makes you think that?
And I said, well, I just feel like I have
a lot to offer, um, guys that are maybe like
(04:03):
in my situation where if I felt like if I
was coached up a little bit more or um, you know,
just a little bit of tricks and trades here and there,
that maybe I could have made it to the big leagues.
So anyway, I walked into our farm director's office. His
name was Bob Hagman. I said, Bob, I've made a decision.
I'd like to retire from the playing field. And I'd
(04:25):
like to start coaching. He said, well, it just so
happens that our guys are in having a meeting right now.
I'm gonna go in there and see what they think.
So he went in there. Five minutes later he came back.
He said, all right, you'll start coaching tomorrow, we'll start
to extended spring. UM. So I started an extended spring, UM,
and that was a lot of fun. I was still playing.
(04:49):
I was actually playing with a lot of the guys,
and and coaching as well. I would play in all
the inner squads and and I was more like a
player coach. And then one day Bob Hagman says, at
your first time, I said, what would that be? He says, well,
there's a kid in Wilmington, Delaware, and we want you
to teach him how to switch it. I said, we're
(05:09):
a month into the season. I said, who is this kid?
And why would we do this during the middle of
the season. He said, well, we've got a lot of
people that think that, Um, you know, we should start
that process now and and start developing him as a
switch hitter. Well, the guy's name was Carlos beltron Um,
and UM I went into Wilmington's UM didn't know Carlos
(05:32):
from a man on the moon, and we started the
process of which which hit, which was left handed. So
we'd get to the field at ten in the morning, UM,
and we'd start with the left handed swing, and then
we'd go to lunch together, and then we come back
and we hit some more left handed, and then the
rest of the day he did right handed, and then
(05:54):
at the end of the day when the game was over,
we do one more session left handed, and we did
that for about sixty days, UM, and then he took
it into the game and as they say, the rest
is history. It was good for him and was good
for me because it taught me basically how to build
the swing. So we've basically built the left hand spring
(06:15):
from scratch. Becus. I was just going to say, because
you've never done that before night you never I mean,
they give you this assignment and you say, of course
I can do this, and you get there and you think,
what am I gonna do? But I have been in
situations like that with Devon White years ago, also when
he was struggling in the major league level. Although I
think I had a year or two under my belt
as a hitting coach, but you left your own devices.
And that's the beauty of it. I wrote down started
(06:36):
with extended spring. Um, that's the part that I love.
I love the fact that you've earned the right to
be where you're at. Plus all the cache, all the
different methods, thoughts, problems you've you've been confronted with as
you've moved up. You have to use your own imagination
in regards to get your point across. Get this guy
to understand what you're talking about, and you have to
read your pupil. What's he capable of hearing? What's he
(06:59):
capable of implementing? Some guys retain well, some guys do not.
So UM, I think that's pretty cool because I totally
get that. And from that one experience, I mean, that
had to give you a lot of confidence moving forward. Yes,
because at that point I knew what I was doing
was because he went straight into competition left handed and
(07:21):
the first night he hit a home run left handed
like and it was it was just it was electric
the things that this guy could do and still of
hitting UM left handed when you hadn't even done it
ever in your life. It was remarkable. And spoke to
his talent um you know as well. But you know
(07:45):
you're right, Joe. You go into this year, you're going
in naked. You don't know really you know where to start. Um.
But I called on my my roommate j T. Snow,
who was uh playing Barry Bonds, and I said, is
there any way you can send me video Barry Bonds?
(08:05):
And I ideus and I just broke down Barry swing.
And then I got with my biomechanic teacher at the
University of Arizona and said, just break down you know
the mechanics of his swing, um, you know, from the
physical standpoint um. And he did that. Now I started teaching,
and then when I started teaching, I started teaching ground
(08:25):
up UM. And I was teaching the lower half of
the swing way before other people got involved with that.
You look at the work from the ground up, and
you look at results and work backwards. And that's what
I've always I maybe you probably worked with Rick down right,
worked with Rie you know that was that was Rick Lane.
You know, you work from the ground up and you
look at results and works work backwards. And I've always
(08:48):
believed that to be true. And that's what people don't
understand when they look at a complete or finished major
League baseball player. While you think it's always been like that,
of course it's not been like that, and all the
different things that the building blocks they get into that
particular point. For me, everything everything in our game starts
with defeat. Everything. I don't care every hitting, if you're pitching,
if you're playing defense, we're throwing about whatever it might be.
(09:11):
It really starts with good feet. And when you established
good feet, the rest as possible it is. It's just
it's the base of the fountain. And when you have
that um, you can start to build a swing. You
can start to build um the mechanics of a good
a good infield or a good outfielder. But I totally
agree with that. Well, just so our listeners can get
(09:31):
a better sense of how accomplished Kevin is um point
out he spent ten years coaching and managing in the
minor leagues before he got a shot in the major leagues.
That was with the Yankees, and I believe it was
two thousand seven, and all they did that year was
they let the league major leagues and runs scored and
the most of the Yankees franchise history since nineteen thirty seven.
(09:53):
So he goes from the Yankees after the fourteen season,
to the Mets, after the Mets to the Nationals, and
from the Nationals to the Phillies, and oh, by the way,
each of those stops goes to the World Series. Joe.
He is the only coach in Major League history to
take four teams to the World Series. I think the
only player to go to the World Series with four
(10:15):
teams is Lonnie Smith Kevin Long. That's not by accident
that you get to the World Series four times with
four different teams, and let it just adds them. As
a hitting coach, that's really difficult. I mean, right now,
hitting coaches are getting fired on an annual basis um
and and it's just all the blame seems to always
be laid at the feet of either the pitching coach
of the hitting coach. Um, you're a psychologist, this guy's
(10:38):
a psychologist. On a daily basis. I mean, really, when
a guy struggling, like a really accomplished it is struggling.
Even you can talk about the guys that are not
accomplished it, but the ones that are when they get
into a tough streak, man, it's hard because that's you
have to almost almost speak with them post every at bat.
I mean they get to that particular point. So it
goes well beyond the mechanics of hitting the physical side
(11:00):
of this thing. For me, as the seasons in progress,
it becomes increasing the more mental, the mental mechanics of
what's going on, and you have to be able to
be kind of like a psychiatrist with these guys on
a daily basis. Um. You know, you know yet bat
where they at bats over the hitter find you at
the rail and you stand at the rail and you
talk about what has just happened. I mean talk about
(11:20):
that too. People don't understand I mean the psychology, but
you do. Also, Yeah, there's a lot more of the
psychology than people think. Um, you're really trying to keep
them in a good headspace because there's so much doubt
in these guys minds. It's such a difficult thing to do. Um,
and they're gonna struggle. The best in the business m
(11:42):
v PS two times, three times, four time. M v ps.
I've seen him go through strings where you couldn't even fathom.
Um myself, Jeter go through an over thirty I've seen
a rod where um, you know, he didn't know if
he was gonna be perform and and go out there
and and be a rod. Um. Bryce Harper go through
(12:06):
struggles that um, you know, they just battled. They So
my job is to make sure that they're in a
good headspace. And how you do that and how you
go about it, well, you've got to know the individual.
You've got to know what makes them tick. Um. It
may be something to do with her family. It. Maybe
um we go have lunch it. Maybe we grind in
(12:26):
the cage and maybe we get the field early. Um
it maybe we look over from down and just see
if you know, um, we can find something there. Are
they not hitting the fastball right now? Are they not
catching up the stuff at the top of his zone? Um?
Do we need to work on breaking ball stuff? There's
just so much that goes into it. And I think
(12:49):
the key, uh is to stay positive number one, and
then understand the individual. If you understand the individual and
you understand what makes them tick, um, that's half the battle. Um.
And it's not easy. There's days where you know, I
have some self doubt on what I'm doing because it's
(13:10):
it's very intricate and there's a lot of things, UM,
that are involved. It could be something off the field.
It could be UM something pisces them off with their teammates.
It could be the managing And you know, my job
is to make sure UM that I'm getting the best
version of that athlete I can on a daily basis,
(13:31):
and that's that's what I strive to do. But we're
gonna take a quick break, and when we get back,
I want to take you inside the batting cage with
Kevin Long. There's so much information and honestly, gadgets available
to a major league hit her these days. Let's get
into the cage next with Kevin Long. Welcome back to
(13:59):
the Book of Joe podcast. Our guest today Kevin Long,
hitting coach for the Philadelphia Phillies. And Kevin, I had
a fascinating conversation with you at the World Series about
some of the work you do in the cage. And
we all know there's so much information that's out there.
I mean, I'm lucky enough to go around different camps
and spring training and I see these caves and forest
plates and you walk in and to some hitting cages
(14:21):
and it looked like computer labs. Uh, And that's not
even speaking about all the different kinds of gadgets that
are available for guys to swing or different kind of
baseballs to hit at, and machinery I pitches and all
this stuff. So give me a sense if I'm a
Philadelphia Philly hit or I'm working with you in the cage,
where are the things you like? What have you found
works in terms of what's out there? What doesn't work well.
(14:44):
I've tried all the new stuff. I've tried all the
k best stuff. I've tried all the gadgets and pretty
much everything underneath um the moon, And what I found
out is um A t clips the machines just basically
(15:04):
the old school stuff works best for me. UM. I
love UM all the analytics. I love information. I'll dissect
and dig deep into um, you know, information and trying
to figure out ways. And basically I'm trying to paint
a picture for myself and the player on why things
are happening or why things aren't happening. Uh. And then
(15:28):
we're old fashioned. We're just gonna get in the cage
and and we're gonna grind it out. We're gonna come
up with drills um um and sequences and things that
we do that, are going to help that individual overcome
some obstacles. Um. We you know we have some bands
in there, we'll do some bandwork. Um, we're all. I'll
(15:49):
um put a belt around them. And basically what I'm
doing is just using the ground and keeping them into
the ground. And usually what happens when I do that
is they spread out and they get their base right, um,
and they become stronger into their lower half and their
legs without me even saying anything. I've had a net
drill that I've for years and I continue to do
(16:11):
that with almost Ryce Harper does it every day. UM.
But you know certain guys um gravitate towards certain drills. Um.
And and you know, hey, Kevin, let me stop you
right there, because I remember you at that net drill
going back to Robbie Cano. It's the first time I
remember that, and he wound up pulling the baseball with
(16:34):
power like nobody thought he had. So why don't describe
to our folks what you do with that net? You
take one of those protective nets and run it across
the center line of the plate. Correct. Yeah, So what
I'll do is I'll get them one bat length Basically
the knob of the bat. Um. You can put it
on their belly button and wherever the barrel ends up,
(16:55):
that's how close to the net they're gonna be. UM.
And I'll go out in front and I'll do front
flips um and basically I'm just gonna split the distance
between their body um and the net. UM. And what
it does is it gets them really really tight um
to their core. They have to use their lower half.
They can't um. They can't get away from their core,
(17:18):
they can't um. And what it does is it it
stops forward movement as well, so they can't rush out
to the baseball because they'll get jammed. UM. And Robinson's case, um,
it got his direction right, It got him tight. It
slowed down his forward movement, so it allowed him to
(17:42):
get two pitches that were, you know, closer to his
body um and he and basically I didn't have to
say much. I just did the drill um and he
got the field. And then in the game he would
he would ask me to say, you know, well, why
did I hit an opposite field home run? All we
did today was work on pulling the ball. I said.
(18:02):
What we did was we got your swing tight and
he started to use your corn, start to use your
legs better. Um, So what happened in this case again
is Robinson would have hit a home round and said, well,
we gotta do the net draw again today, when in
every single day, and you know, I told himself, Robbert,
you got to get to the field at two o'clock
to do this because I got all the other guys
(18:23):
showing up doing their normal routines at three, and he
had no problem showing up at two. Is okay, whatever
time you tell me to be there, to be there,
but I want to do the net drill. Aren't you
describing Barry bonds of swing? Also? I mean that's everything
you're saying right there, I'm saying bonds. I mean nobody
was nobody was shorter, no longer to the ball than
than him. And it's almost like he didn't have anything
(18:45):
happened behind him. And it's almost like I started here,
then all of a sudden, the pass out front and
the ball is going far. There's no way you could
beat him inside with any kind of velocity. It was
the shortest, quickest, strongest swing I saw him. I actually
saw him play at Arizona State right before you were
there at you have a and just watched how he
morphed into what he did eventually. But um, he is
the poster child for me for short swing and we're
(19:07):
choking up and we're hitting balls out of sight obviously,
but everything you're talking about, I would even imagine. I
don't even know if you know if Bonds did that
kind of a drill, but it almost seems like that
kind of a drill had an impact on on the
Barry Bonds. Yeah. And you know, Joe, when I started
uh and I got into it again, I leaned on JT.
Snow and who guy that I wanted, you know, his
(19:30):
swing and I wanted to mimic one. It was Barry Bonds.
The sorts most compact explosives I've ever seen. For a
guy to command the strikes on the way he did,
it was incredible. This guy was on top of the
dish and you could not be how do you do that? Well,
it's it's the net drill in essence, that's exactly what
(19:53):
very swing want. It was everything tight to the core.
I can remember story Trevor Hoffman goes, I'm working on
the cutter this offseason, and I want to work on
this cutter and I'm gonna bust it out Barry Bonds.
I said, okay, I'm thinking myself, good luck, pal. He
works the cutter all off season and he's got his
(20:14):
first situation of face Barrie and it's it's crucial. Um.
I think that's first and second padres are up by two. Um,
he's facing Bonds. Well, he busts out this cutter and
Bonds sits it into the water. Um. And I said, boy,
So I called Trevor a couple of days. I gave
him a couple of days. I said, how did that
cutter work? Buddies? Unbelievable? Well, what you're talking about. Also,
(20:39):
what I love is you you set up field drills
because you want to stay away from a lot of
mechanical conversation. But if you could put a guy in
a position to feel exactly what you're talking about the
movie trying to create and then he says, I feel
it as you're watching it and saying that's right now,
we've got something. The moment to me an athlete, we're
talking about hitters right now, I could tell you that
(21:00):
they feel it. That's the moment that they know it
while you're actually and observing that it is the correct move.
So that really resonates with me because I wasn't hitting
coach for a bit and the minor leagues with the
Angels too, and I was big on field drills because
anytime you could get your point across mechanically without having
to talk about mechanics, you're really getting something done. I
(21:23):
agree with that, and I'll come up with drills um
and do stuff with guys and I'm not even telling
them why I'm doing it. I just want them to
feel it, and that's what they'll say, Oh, I feel that.
I feel how tight I like not swinging hard and
the ball is jumping off my bat um and I
feel like I'm I'm going to get the ball as
(21:45):
much as I was before. And so I'll come up
with drills and and things um in the cage um
out on the field. That kind of gives them that feel.
And if I can get the feel and get them to,
you know, tell me, yeah, that's it. I feel that,
then then we're on the right path. Agree with that. Man,
(22:05):
that's great stuff. And obviously any great hitting coach knows
there's no cookie cutter method. You're dealing with individuals, human
beings and Kevin, I know you're great about that. So
if I can, I want to do a rapid fire
here going through some of the great hitters that you've
worked with, because they are different, they respond differently, approaches
are differently, So real quickly with some guys, just give
(22:26):
me what comes to top of mind in terms of
what they do well, what stands out when you're dealing
with this kind of a hitter. Let's start with a
guy you had now both in Washington and in Philadelphia,
Bryce Harper. Explosive. I mean when I look at Bryce site,
it's it's one of the most explosive swings I've ever seen.
And to be kind of that violent um and have
(22:50):
the back to ball skills that he has, Um, he's
just special. I mean I really admire um what this
guy has done. He's made changes in a swing. When
you saw him when he first came up to where
he is now, it's a completely different swing. I mean
the violence is still there, but he's controlled his movements
a lot better, especially now we see him spread out
(23:11):
like you're talking about with two strikes. So great example there.
How about Juan Soto, another guy with an unbelievable bass
underneath him. The best young hitter I've ever seen, and
to this day be the best swing I've ever seen
besides Barry Bonds. Um Wan Soto Um is almost perfect
(23:34):
with this wing. It's really that good. But having said that,
you go, you know, he hit two forty something last year,
So even a guy with that swing can go through
some struggles. It's a hard game just to tweak Joe here,
Daniel Murphy. What did you do with Daniel Murphy? Wow? Yeah,
(23:54):
just gonna throw that one out there. That was the
most obscene four games I've ever seen in my life.
Let me tell you, in so many ways, he is uh,
he's got a end of his own. He thinks differently
than most people. I remember when I first met Murph,
I had this list I do offseason stuff with with
guys swings, and I write all these notes. Why had
(24:16):
all these notes on mirth? And he said, well, why
would I change anything I do. I'm making eleven million
dollars right now. I said, well, what if you could
make twin? What if there was more in their mirth?
He said, all right, I hear you. Let's let's try it.
So in spring training, Um we started messing with this swing,
(24:37):
doing some things, and after many he might have been
hitting two oh five to ten. It was not very good.
It was the year that Joe was talking about where
he went crazy in the playoffs. You think importonists, don't you,
I said, I surely hope not, because I think you're
starting to get it. He goes, Oh, yeah, I'm getting it.
He said, it's it's coming. I can start. I'm starting
(24:59):
to feel it. And Joe was talking about he started
to feel it, and by the end of the season
he was right where he needed to be. And then
the playoffs started, and this guy was a man possessed.
I've never seen anything like it. It was seven home
runs in seven straight games against the best pitching in baseball,
one after another. It was Arietta to Lester to Fernandal
(25:24):
Rodney at homer off of Kershaw Grinky. It was. It
was unbelievable. It was. It was a fascinating run. I
also like the fact that you referenced his batting average
and not his OPS. He was sitting two five, he
was sitting to his His OPS wasn't like six seventy
three or something like that. And I had Daniel, I
had Daniel no, exactly, we're talking. I love the guy.
(25:45):
I we still we texted this this this winter already.
Um uh a unique young man, really bright these Uh
you're not. You just can't tell him stuff like ka
long salk. You just can't say stuff to him. You
got to really back it up because he will challenge
you every and I love that. I love when a
play are will challenge my theories or what I'm saying
(26:06):
to him. And those are the guys that make you
better coaches, because there's nothing you're going to get away
with with talking to the s guy unless of substantiated.
And Daniel is a perfect example of that. And yeah,
I mean listen, he hit everything. He hit everything that series.
I don't care if it's breaking ball down, fastball in
elevated whatever. It was incredible to watch a display that
he put on. Well here here's another fascinating thing. He says, Okay,
(26:30):
I'm gonna sit on Fernando Rodney's changing right in the
middle of history. Murph, you do whatever you need to
do out of your way, right. So he goes up
there and he hits a nineties seven mile out of
fastball off Rodney the right centery. It's a Homer and
he comes in and he's shaking his head. He goes,
(26:51):
don't ask me. I don't even know how Hey, Kevin,
how about how about Derek Jeter? To me, of all
the guys I've covered, he may be the most routine
oriented great player that I've been around. Just the same
guy every day, Like it's the same guy. You wouldn't
know if he was over twenty or twenty. He did
(27:13):
the same and he acted the same every single day.
And I tell you know, we had a we have
a kid, Alec Bomb, and Bomb would like where his
emotions on his sleeve, and he'd have a chip on
his shoulder and it was just so up and down.
And I said, I'm gonna give you an example of
a guy might have been one of the greatest players
(27:34):
that's ever played, who never changed. You couldn't tell I
want you to be more like him. And this guy
was his name was Derek Jeter. And when he came
to the cage, it was the same routine every single day.
It was the same drills. He never he never got
off that, he never got away from it. I mean
there was times where I wanted him to pull the ball.
(27:55):
He pulled the ball. I don't pull the ball, klong.
I'm not doing anything that with Poland I'm not gonna
do um And that was That was Derek Jeter. It
was incredible to watch him because nobody stayed inside the
ball longer than he did, or try to do it more.
I mean, you knew that as a pitching staff, you
knew that. As a defense, you knew that you hit
the ball in the ground. I've never had such a
(28:17):
good player opposition wise that hit more groundballs than he did.
That was as good as he was. Um. It was
just constantly, like you said, stayed with one method and
and it worked and he made it work, and it
was you have to be really um strong mentally in
order to do something like that. But I've never I mean,
everybody knew what they wanted to do against him, and
(28:38):
you try to do but if you made one mistake
just a little bit over the plate, it was gonna
get ripped. And I'll tell you what, if there's runner
in scoring position late in the game, two outs, the
ball is gonna find grass in the outfield. Somehow. That's
just who he was. I think I was absolutely fascinating.
He really and the bigger the situation, the more I
knew he was gonna come through correct, truly felt that.
(28:58):
So an age Tom Joe we talked about lonch Angle
and the ball in the air. Eric Jeter had the
lowest no I think career of any any guy that's
ever played, which I think it was like one. Hendrick
was very low and I think he was at four.
And they did the same thing. They backed the ball
(29:19):
up and they hit the ball the other way. That's
what made Derek Jeter a Hall of Famer and what's
what made him so great. If you think about it,
if you're going to hit an off speed pitch, but
you already backed up the ball, it kind of helps
you do that. So that's helpe Jeter and it helps
Howie Kendrick tremendously because they were always able to back
the ball up. When you backed the ball up the
(29:41):
way they did, it's hard to hit it in the air.
It's just if you're bad enough time to work the
proper angle. So um, that's the way they hit. Um.
They were you know, both those guys, Howie and Jeter.
Um to me, Um, we're very much alike in it
and their thought processing and how they swung them ay
(30:02):
one more for you. K It's a guy that you
and Joe know really well, Kyle Schwarber. And one of
the things we like to do on this show is
we talk about guys we call glue guys, guys who
contribute to the team because they their mortar. They bind
the team together, they see beyond themselves, they make the
guys around them better. And I remember you telling me
(30:23):
about Kyle and some of the things he did in
two for Bryce Harper specifically. UM, so give me your
take on Schwarb's just helpless. I mean, all he cares
about is winning. That's it. It's all he wants, all
he wants. And he's in the cage and he'll be
down there with his coffee and he'll get down there
at one o'clock and we're just shooting the ship for
(30:45):
hours and we're just talking baseball. We're pulling up video
and we're talking about guys on the team. Uh, it's
not even about him, it's just about other people and
um trying to get the team to jail. I remember
we were, you know, I just got to Philly and
we were talking about free agents, and UM, they said, well,
(31:08):
you know, our clubhouse is a little fraid we're missing
something in that clubhouse. And I said, well, I got
a I got a guy, and I said, he'll change
the whole complexion of that clubhouse. And the guy's name
is Kyles Farber. And you know he's gonna be hit
or missed, and there's gonna be some times where you
(31:28):
know you don't want him at the plate. He's just
he's um, you know. But at the end of the day, UM,
he's going to help everybody in that clubhouse become the
best version of themselves that they can possibly be. UM.
So they targeted Swarber and he did what he do
and I'll tell you what. That clubhouse and that team
(31:50):
jailed and came together, and Kyle's Farber Um, in my opinion,
deserves most of the credit for that. He handles failure
really well, especially obviously at the plate. I mean, even
going through bad moment said that he doesn't lose his confidence.
He might, at least he won't show it. He's always
the same cat every day. And I really believe where
(32:12):
he comes from. His family has a lot to do
with this. He comes from a family first responders, very
blue collar, and he's very very grounded. I grew up
in Indiana, played football there. Whatever, But he is He's
exactly who you think he is. There's nothing kidden. There's
no pretense about this guy whatsoever. He is. He is.
(32:32):
He is the dirt he is that. He's that solid,
and so he handles adversity well because he could strike
out ten times in a row and he'll tell you
look at you straight in the eyeballs with that look,
with his big brown eyes, and he just goes right
through you. And I'm fine, I'm gonna get this guy
right now. I'm gonna get him this that bat. And
he believes it, and that's a big part of the
why it's so successful. So I was looking at something.
(32:53):
Kyle Slober started off the playoffs over twenty. I don't
know if you remember he was over twenty. You know
what Kyle Farber ended up doing in the playoffs, ended
up with a nine thirty seven O p s. I
know you don't. That's fine, We're good. I mean he
hit to eighteen is on base was four he slugged
at and we were talking about this. He goes, you know,
(33:17):
give me, let's go through my stuff from last year.
So because he's gonna start hitting today. Okay, this stuff
and I'm going, dude, the playoffs, he goes bro I
started off the playoffs over twenty I was like, he
had fifty five at bats. So it's just it's just
takes to cosh Warber and who's right on team player. Hey,
(33:40):
we're gonna take a quick break and we get back.
I really want to ask Kevin about new rule changes
in baseball in three I have a feeling he's gonna
like him. Hey, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts.
(34:03):
And I mentioned rule change is the one that stands
out obviously is defensive positioning. Uh, no more shifts, No
more infielders playing on the outfield. Grass Um and Kevin,
I think about especially the left handed hitters, and just
to throw some numbers at you, I mean you're aware
of this trend obviously, going back to before the world
went crazy with shifts. If you are a lefty and
(34:26):
you hit a ground ball to the pull side, you
hit a buck eighty six. It's not great. Nobody wants
to hit groundballs, but sometimes you get a hard ground ball.
Back then, it was a base hit. Last year, remember
what SI last year with all those shifts same groundballs
to the pull side for lefties one and it was
one thirteen when there was a shift in play. So basically,
(34:49):
if you're a lefty and saw a shift, you hit
a ground ball, you're out ninety percent of the time.
And that's going to change, Kevin, you know that with
two infielders have to be on each side of the
bag and they cannot be on the outfield grass. So
give me your sense of what we're going to see
how it will change baseball. Well, it's gonna change. It's
(35:10):
gonna help the hit her, no doubt about it. Um,
there's gonna be more run scored, there's gonna be more
traffic on the basis UM, And I think hitting is
gonna get back to UM guys being able to move
the ball the way they want to. UM. You know,
the whole era of getting the ball in the air
(35:32):
and this whole launching will evolved because if you hit
a ground ball basically the pull side, you were out.
So what happens is you have to start working out
in front of the baseball. So strikeouts are gonna increase
because you're trying to elevate the ball and you can't
elevate the ball by hitting it off your back hip.
So what happens is you start working out in front
(35:53):
of the baseball and strikeouts increase. UM, and guys, you know,
just they forget how to hit. Um. You know that's
simple stuff on getting a guy in from third and
and moving runners. It becomes non existent. Um. You know,
lefty lefties had to work so far out in front
(36:13):
of the ball. It ruined Brian McKinnon swing. It literally
ruined this wing. He knew anything to the pull side
on the ground he was out. Um. It affected Jay
Bruce when I had him a lot, Um, Curtis Granderson,
it actually might have helped him because UM, I don't
he was able to there was a fine line, but
(36:34):
he was able to hit a lot of home runs
because we knew that any groundball to the pull side
would have been out. But for the most part, Um,
it hurt hitters and it hurt their ability to move
the baseball the right way. So I'm excited, um for
what's about to happen. I think you're gonna see the
averages go up. I think you know, hitting so hard anyway,
(36:58):
and we need some more confidence in what we do.
Joe was talking about how hitting coaches don't last. Well,
the reason why they don't last is because it's hard
to be consistent hitting, it really is, and and good pitching,
for the most part, beats good hitting. Um, so this might,
you know, I don't equal out the plane surface a
little bit. We'll see what happens. You know, it's it's
(37:22):
definitely gonna gonna favor the hitter. But that's really music
to myers because I agree with all what you're saying there,
keb I, Um, I really um. I would like to
see a retro kind of thing, going back to the
original game at baseball the way they've been played. Um,
what's what are you? What are you gonna compensate for?
That's part of the problem too. I mean the home
runs are being compensated for. Strikeouts are okay, don't worry
(37:43):
about striking out. It's okay to strike out and try
to accept your walks. Under those circumstances you're talking about,
hitter is lefties with less time to make a decision
and longer swings, which then led to more out in front,
ground ball, strikeouts being fold etcetera. I'm into compensation. I
think you know, at the end of the day, which
whatever you want, compensate for it. So if you want
to see greater batting averages, which will also lead to
(38:06):
some opious it's gonna lead to runs being scored with
two ounce. It doesn't have to be a home run,
situational hitting, moving runner second and third with lesson to
us the ball has been moved, run run third, and
feel then feel back. I mean, all this stuff that
we drilled and you drilled that you have and beyond
with kse, etcetera. It's kind of gone away, man, because
I mean, I've been involved in meetings the last couple
of years where people sitting on the sidelines talking about
(38:30):
this stuff really aren't interested. They aren't interested in those
things because again, at the end of the day, they
don't think it's going to impact the winning baseball team.
But with like you're saying, the new rules being in place,
I think there's gonna be a greater emphasis on execution
once again, and I'm looking forward to because that's that's
to me, what the fans are missing. And when you're
talking about us losing appeal on a broader sense and
(38:51):
a broader scale, because the game has become boring because
it is so predictable, and the lack of predictability would
be hitters that are able to do other things. Put
the ball, play, moved the ball, play the game as
that have been designed. But if you're gonna do that,
compen safe for it. Right down to stealing bases, you're
talking about bigger bases, less distance between the both go
ahead and compensate base stealers, UH based stealing champions, etcetera.
(39:15):
Whatever you want to get out of the game, compensate
for a little bit more, because you got what you
wanted with the strikeouts and home runs when it was
compensated for. And that's exactly what happened. And I talked
to our guys when we get into the playoffs, I said, gentlemen,
this is gonna be about how we command the strike zone,
our discipline at the plate, and our ability to move
(39:36):
the baseball and do the little things. So we got
done with our first two series is and UM. At
the end of those first series against St. Louis UM,
we were five for five with runners on second moving
on to the third, and I think we were nine
for sixteen getting guys in from third. So those types
(39:58):
and I and I would reiterate this to these guys.
I said, okay, after the first two series, I think
were seven for seven, moved runners from second and I
don't know, maybe I don't have me, but it was very,
very good. And what happened was we started to believe
in each other um our teammates, and we started to
(40:19):
do the little things. UM. And when you do that,
you start to build team camaraderie. And it was happening,
each guy to a man um harbor. At one point Bunted.
I was like, oh, I don't I don't know about that,
but you know we he did it, he Bunted. I
think it was against St. Louis. He laid down a
(40:39):
bunt Um. But guys became selfless and we started to
be developed as a team. UM. And that's truly what
happened is um. It was offensive baseball at its best.
And then it becomes very very difficult at times to
do that, especially when you're facing the likes of the
Houston Astros pitching staff. UM. It just became harder up
(41:03):
to ext a cute. But nonetheless, that's that was our
goal going in. Last point with that, I mean, when
you're talking about here, it's not a physical adaptation. This
is all mental you guys. You guys decided as a group,
we're gonna do this. So then when you're taking batting
practice wherever you're working, you call it a situation, and
the hitter then adapts and makes the adjustment. How do
I do this? How do I get the ball the
(41:24):
ground on the right side. They'll do something internally because
they know what it takes to move the ball to
that side. It doesn't take a mechanical thought or adjustment.
It takes a mental thought or adjustment. And that I
called adaptation. So that when you get the whole group
thinking that way, brother, you guys, you become very dangerous.
And I told you, guys, I said, that's actually what
happened with the Washington Nationals. We did the exact same thing. Guys.
(41:48):
We're playing team baseball. When you play team baseball and
you nine guys pulling the rope the same way, it
becomes a very very difficult situation for the other team.
And that's that's exactly what happened. Kevin. I got one
more job for you where you get out of here.
Of course, our podcast is based on our book, The
Book of Joe, and we like to play a game
(42:10):
with our guests that we call a reading from the
Book of Joe. So you get to pick any number
between one and three. That's the number of pages in
the Book of Joe. And uh, I'm pretty confident, as
we've done before, no matter what page you turn to,
you're going to find something interesting in this book. So
(42:31):
it's your choice now, dealer's choice for Kevin Long one
through three D WHOA, let's go with three thirty three. Ah,
that's spoken just like a hitting coach. Is that your
gold standard? By the way, not just three hundred but three.
That just came to I just go it could have
(42:54):
been to ninety nine. I always like that. Okay, um wow,
this is about Joe's breakup with the Chicago Cubs. Um
of course this was um theo Epstein and Joe Madden
kind of their last meetings, if you will, where they
had a meeting in St. Louis pretty much mutually agree
(43:16):
that that that was it. Uh. So here's Joe talking
about kind of what led to or at least finished
off really was an unbelievable marriage. I wanted more involvement,
I wanted good information, Joe says, And I've never turned
my nose to the information. Ever, all of a sudden,
the information started to become more and more important to
(43:37):
the people upstairs, more vital to what we're doing. To
the point, and I think this is where my big
rub is, they started eliminating jobs. Guys that have put
in their time were not wanted anymore. The newer front
office guys really did not want to hear from the
old baseball guys, and they especially did not want to
hear their evaluations because the new method evaluation had to
be done in an analytical perspective. It was in their
(44:00):
minds eye more precise. It's subtractive feel, It subtracted experience,
it was more unaffected. It was pure because the numbers
lacked emotion, the process lacked emotion. I always talked about
the process as being fearless. Maybe that's the part of
what their aspirations were to have this fearless method. I
(44:21):
admit I kind of agreed with it sometimes, So there
you go. We talked about the balance between data and art. Kevin,
and I know you deal with this on a daily basis,
because that's what baseball is. It's a balance of the two.
There is that was well said by the way, because
I think we've all been in those situations, especially if
(44:44):
we've been around as long as we have, and Joe's
been around a long time and seeing to go the
game evolved into maybe a little bit more analytical than
than baseball on the field and guys that just have
been there, done that. Um, the old school way of
doing things. Um, there's a lot of good data, there's
a lot of good people, but there's gotta be a mix,
(45:06):
and there's gotta be um you know that that there's
gotta be value for the baseball people that really does
and when it when it's ways the other way, it
becomes difficult. So um. And and you know what the
other part of that is is I've been through that
where I've had a marriage, uh, and it's ended and
(45:28):
it's not easy, especially you know my marriage with the Yankees.
The Yankees was tough when it ended. Um, but um,
you know it was I have a lot of good memories,
as Joe has a lot of good memories with THEO.
Um those were everlasting, that will be there forever. Um.
I think that's what you gotta lean on, is the
(45:49):
good times. But um, you know, I think that the
mix between the two is vital to one last point.
I'll turn it back to you told me. I'm just
my biggest concern is that the words feel, experience, wisdom
do not become archaic. I mean, they're they're they're they're
really almost frowned upon when you're bringing something like that
(46:10):
up in a meeting and you express yourself as something
as a field or something I've experienced, and then you
don't even want to talk about wisdom. That's for somebody
else to determine if you have that or not. But
it's almost becoming archaic UM and people uh looking for
more controllable commodities, people that lack that stuff because I
want to tell you what to feel, what to think,
and how to react, as opposed to have me gone
(46:32):
through the gauntlet starting in UM extended spring training, what
nineteen ninety nineteen, So whatever that was for you whenever
whenever you started, it's not not nineteen and you started
playing whenever you started, you're extended spring training. That is experienced,
that's wisdom, that's feel that you developed by through trial
and error. And there's times you did the absolute wrong thing,
(46:53):
but you did it on the back field where nobody
can notice and you could fix it, and you could
talk to people and you could almost apologize, which I've
done for some of the stupid things I've said to people.
But uh, those really important things that I'm concerned are
going to become more of an our kig part of
our baseball society and society in general. Yeah. And there's
there's coaches that are guys that just played and they
(47:15):
think that coaching is easy, and they think they should
start off big weeks. Right, I spent eighteen straight years
and minors eighteen straight and people go, God, you've you've
you've had it so easy, right, things things have worked
out so good for you. Yeah, well you should have
been there in those bus rides. You should have been
there when I was making thirty two thousand or less
(47:35):
for fifteen straight years. I mean those are facts. Um,
those are who what made me who I am today.
And people think, just because you know, they had this
marvelous baseball career, that they can just walk into coaching
and it's gonna and it's that's not the case. I
think you gotta, you know, put in the time and
(47:56):
do do the analytical people do that? Do they where
do they start? They start right at the top, or
do they have to go through some trial one error.
I mean, I don't I don't know. It just doesn't
seem like some of these guys have have been through
the grind um the way they should. But I don't know.
That's whole another discussion. Well, we talked about it all
the time here, Kevin. The struggle. You know, the struggle
(48:19):
is a beautiful thing. There's nothing wrong with it, and
you more than paid your dues to get where you're at.
One more thing, Kevin, before you go. If I'm a
Phillies fan, what a ride? Man? I mean, last year
was just unbelievable. That place was electric. The vibe is
back in Philly. What can you tell a Phillies fan that, Hey,
this wasn't a one hit wonder. It's like we've got
(48:39):
something sustainable here. This wasn't a hot team, you know,
through the month of October, but there's something that's just
getting started. Um, give us something to hang onto there.
If you're a Phillies fan, Trade Turner would be one,
not bad one. Taiwan Walker might be another. Um. It's
the fact that the John Milton is not content, he's
(49:02):
not sure it was a great run and um, you know,
there's some good things happening in Philly, but ultimately we
felt short of our goal, which was to win the
World Series. Um what did John Middleton go out and do?
He said, let's let's go get some some more players,
get some more death. Let's let's take this a little
(49:22):
bit further and see what happens. So, um, you know,
we still have Nolan and Wheeler at the top of
our rotation. Ranger Swarez is as good as anybody, Taiwan Walker.
We got a young kid, Andrew Painter, who's um, a
fabulous young pitcher who's the nineties six to a hundred. Um,
We've got a great offense, um, and we got a
(49:44):
we had a lot of good things happening. UM. So
we'll we'll see where this takes us. But the Philly
fans are I should be excited about about this team,
about where we're going and about what we're trying to accomplish.
Awesome stuff. Really, this has been a pleasure, Kevin. We
could talk all day. It's just so fascinating, and you're
(50:05):
not only great at what you do about you're great
explaining it. So we appreciate your time. Bett Thanks guys,
it was it was a blast. That was awesome. Thanks
Ka Long appreciate your brother. Happy New Year, Happy New Year,
do you guys see Babe? Alright, Sabe, Tommy, you just
we were just talking kind of off air a little
bit with Kevin. But UM, I think more people need
to hear Kevin speak on subjects other than just hitting. UM.
(50:25):
I mean I'm sitting here, We're sitting here doing the
City of You almost an hour and you could hear
the completeness of his baseball acumen. I mean, this guy's uh,
he relates to people, he's got. He definitely established his
trust within the group. He has definitely connections regarding relationship building. Uh,
there's so much going on there. And I think when
(50:47):
a guy is a hitting coach, especially, I think even
so a certain extent a pitching coach, you get known
as that and it's almost like being a character actor.
You can't be the leading man. But when you listen
to him, UM, I'd love for him to get more
opportunities to be heard because I think he uh, he's
a man for all seasons. He speaks about the new
with the old. UM. I think when he explains himself
(51:09):
it's really lucid and um, if you're looking for a
higher right there, my goodness that you don't have to
look much further. I know, you know he's not maybe
an analytical maybe and sometimes that turns people off, but
he's he always he said it already. I mean, he's
into all that stuff, but he wants to more things
together and not just try to get to top heavy
with one or the other. So I just I would
(51:31):
just like to see where people listen to Kevin. I
think his message was outstanding. Yeah, great observation. I'm with
you on that. You know, he did interview twice before,
once with the Mets when Mickey Callaway was hired and
then with the Nationals when Davy Martinez was hired. He
did manage a couple of years in the minor leagues,
winning percentage over six hundred. You can just tell hopefully
our listeners do listening to him. That's not just about hitting.
(51:53):
His overall philosophy and above all else, his communication strengths,
which to me is job one with the major league manager,
those are off the charts. And you know, maybe he's
another lou Pinella. I mean, lou Pinella was a great
hitting coach, and you know it kind of broke through
that mold as a manager wind up winning a World
Series with the Cincinnati Reds. Charlie Manuel Charlie is the
(52:14):
same guy. Perfect example. Yeah, it could be the next
next role for Kevin Longber right now. He's as I said,
I think he's the best hitting coach in the game.
That was a pleasure listening to him. All right, Joe,
that's another edition of the Book of Joe podcast. You
got something to take us out? I do. I think
it's like perfect for everything that just we talked about today.
Kevin the time that he spent grinding through the minor leagues.
(52:36):
Hitting coaches, they pretty much live in a concrete tunnel
called the betting cage or tunnel underneath the ballpark stands.
And I think this is perfect. This comes from Andrea Agassi.
All the good stuff is on the other side of tired. God.
I love that it's all about work. As he's talking
about the grind um. You see all the wonderful things
(52:57):
that occur in an athletes life, but it really is
on the other side of tired. That's outstanding. I love it.
Amen to that. See you next time, all right, brother
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of I
heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit
(53:18):
the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My
Heart Radio. Hey, welcome back to another episode of the
Book of Joe Podcast. You've come to the right place
if you want to learn a little bit about baseball leadership, teamwork,
(00:26):
and I don't know, maybe some rock and roll too.
This is Tom Berducci and I'm here with my good
buddy Joe Madden and Joe, I'm super excited about our
guest today. I think he's the best hitting coach in
the business, Kevin Long, Philadelphia, Phillies. Yeah. I've been around
Kevin for actually a long time, and I'm right it
now because Okay Long, I've actually scott at you in
(00:48):
nine when you're done at you have a I think
we've talked about this and uh I looked it up.
I have to be honest, just to get all the
correct teammates and Senter was there, j T was there,
Hoffey was there, Damon may Shore was there, Ericson who
I was really wanted to draft badly too, and of
course Aree Kindle and Jimmy Wing. Uh. I used to
wear out a path between my house up here and
Masa down Interstate. Tend to your ballpark down there and
(01:12):
this guy could hit. Uh, Tommy, this guy could hit.
I had him on my draft list. We never ended
up with Kansas City, I believe. But this goes way
back to the eighties and and I've watched his abilities
as a hitting coach from the other dugout. He was
with my buddy Davey Martinez winning World Series. Before that,
he beat us up with the Mets when Danny Murphy
(01:32):
was just unbelievable for four games against the Cubs. Anyway, Keeth,
thanks for coming on. It's great to have you on.
And I feel the same way. I really have a
lot of respect for you to do in your in
your job, and you're a wonderful guy on top of that. Well,
I appreciate it and I'm excited to talk a little
shot today. And those are those are fond memories going
back to U of A days and eight eighty nine.
(01:54):
Bunch of good dudes I played with you named a
bunch of them. We talk all the time. Just talked
to Hoffey. Gonna see Scott ericson shortly. I'll talk to
j T Know all the time. Demon May sure of
course was on that team. Off to him quite a bit.
But uh, I'm excited for today and excited to actually
talk with you guys and see what's up. Well, Kevin,
(02:17):
we have to point this out. Joe loved you so
much that you didn't get drafted until the thirty first
round by the Royals. I didn't have that much shoes
back then, babe, I didn't have that much choice. Hey, Tom,
I was going to bring that up, but I let
that one go. But you know what, seven you just
kind of grind and get through eight b s and
(02:37):
play baseball as you can, and thirty first round was
probably about right in all respect. You know, I think
that's that's that's fine and fair. I think I had
been for the thirties run Actually so well, Kevin. I'm
always interested in and origin stories and how guys who
are at the top of their business get there. And
for you, obviously, you get drafted by Kansas City, played
(02:59):
eight years in the minor leagues to seventy three hitter.
But there was a point I think it was and
you can tell the story. Um, when it was the
end of the road for you as a player and
you become a coach with the Wilmington Blue Rocks. You're
thirty years old. Tell me about that transition, because I
know no player was to hear that you're done, you
(03:19):
can't play anymore. No, and and that was my choice.
I was. I was gonna make the team, the Omaha
Royals team out of spring training. There was three days left,
and I sat down with my wife and I said,
you know what, I think I'm just wasting time right now.
I said, I'm twenty nine, and um, you know, I'm
just holding a job and I think I might have
(03:41):
more value as a coach. She said, ah, you promised
me you would get coaching. And I said, I really
have a strong passion for this. I think this is
my calling, um. And she said what makes you think that?
And I said, well, I just feel like I have
a lot to offer, um, guys that are maybe like
(04:03):
in my situation where if I felt like if I
was coached up a little bit more or um, you know,
just a little bit of tricks and trades here and there,
that maybe I could have made it to the big leagues.
So anyway, I walked into our farm director's office. His
name was Bob Hagman. I said, Bob, I've made a decision.
I'd like to retire from the playing field. And I'd
(04:25):
like to start coaching. He said, well, it just so
happens that our guys are in having a meeting right now.
I'm gonna go in there and see what they think.
So he went in there. Five minutes later he came back.
He said, all right, you'll start coaching tomorrow, we'll start
to extended spring. UM. So I started an extended spring, UM,
and that was a lot of fun. I was still playing.
(04:49):
I was actually playing with a lot of the guys,
and and coaching as well. I would play in all
the inner squads and and I was more like a
player coach. And then one day Bob Hagman says, at
your first time, I said, what would that be? He says, well,
there's a kid in Wilmington, Delaware, and we want you
to teach him how to switch it. I said, we're
(05:09):
a month into the season. I said, who is this kid?
And why would we do this during the middle of
the season. He said, well, we've got a lot of
people that think that, Um, you know, we should start
that process now and and start developing him as a
switch hitter. Well, the guy's name was Carlos beltron Um,
and UM I went into Wilmington's UM didn't know Carlos
(05:32):
from a man on the moon, and we started the
process of which which hit, which was left handed. So
we'd get to the field at ten in the morning, UM,
and we'd start with the left handed swing, and then
we'd go to lunch together, and then we come back
and we hit some more left handed, and then the
rest of the day he did right handed, and then
(05:54):
at the end of the day when the game was over,
we do one more session left handed, and we did
that for about sixty days, UM, and then he took
it into the game and as they say, the rest
is history. It was good for him and was good
for me because it taught me basically how to build
the swing. So we've basically built the left hand spring
(06:15):
from scratch. Becus. I was just going to say, because
you've never done that before night you never I mean,
they give you this assignment and you say, of course
I can do this, and you get there and you think,
what am I gonna do? But I have been in
situations like that with Devon White years ago, also when
he was struggling in the major league level. Although I
think I had a year or two under my belt
as a hitting coach, but you left your own devices.
And that's the beauty of it. I wrote down started
(06:36):
with extended spring. Um, that's the part that I love.
I love the fact that you've earned the right to
be where you're at. Plus all the cache, all the
different methods, thoughts, problems you've you've been confronted with as
you've moved up. You have to use your own imagination
in regards to get your point across. Get this guy
to understand what you're talking about, and you have to
read your pupil. What's he capable of hearing? What's he
(06:59):
capable of implementing? Some guys retain well, some guys do not.
So UM, I think that's pretty cool because I totally
get that. And from that one experience, I mean, that
had to give you a lot of confidence moving forward. Yes,
because at that point I knew what I was doing
was because he went straight into competition left handed and
(07:21):
the first night he hit a home run left handed
like and it was it was just it was electric
the things that this guy could do and still of
hitting UM left handed when you hadn't even done it
ever in your life. It was remarkable. And spoke to
his talent um you know as well. But you know
(07:45):
you're right, Joe. You go into this year, you're going
in naked. You don't know really you know where to start. Um.
But I called on my my roommate j T. Snow,
who was uh playing Barry Bonds, and I said, is
there any way you can send me video Barry Bonds?
(08:05):
And I ideus and I just broke down Barry swing.
And then I got with my biomechanic teacher at the
University of Arizona and said, just break down you know
the mechanics of his swing, um, you know, from the
physical standpoint um. And he did that. Now I started teaching,
and then when I started teaching, I started teaching ground
(08:25):
up UM. And I was teaching the lower half of
the swing way before other people got involved with that.
You look at the work from the ground up, and
you look at results and work backwards. And that's what
I've always I maybe you probably worked with Rick down right,
worked with Rie you know that was that was Rick Lane.
You know, you work from the ground up and you
look at results and works work backwards. And I've always
(08:48):
believed that to be true. And that's what people don't
understand when they look at a complete or finished major
League baseball player. While you think it's always been like that,
of course it's not been like that, and all the
different things that the building blocks they get into that
particular point. For me, everything everything in our game starts
with defeat. Everything. I don't care every hitting, if you're pitching,
if you're playing defense, we're throwing about whatever it might be.
(09:11):
It really starts with good feet. And when you established
good feet, the rest as possible it is. It's just
it's the base of the fountain. And when you have
that um, you can start to build a swing. You
can start to build um the mechanics of a good
a good infield or a good outfielder. But I totally
agree with that. Well, just so our listeners can get
(09:31):
a better sense of how accomplished Kevin is um point
out he spent ten years coaching and managing in the
minor leagues before he got a shot in the major leagues.
That was with the Yankees, and I believe it was
two thousand seven, and all they did that year was
they let the league major leagues and runs scored and
the most of the Yankees franchise history since nineteen thirty seven.
(09:53):
So he goes from the Yankees after the fourteen season,
to the Mets, after the Mets to the Nationals, and
from the Nationals to the Phillies, and oh, by the way,
each of those stops goes to the World Series. Joe.
He is the only coach in Major League history to
take four teams to the World Series. I think the
only player to go to the World Series with four
(10:15):
teams is Lonnie Smith Kevin Long. That's not by accident
that you get to the World Series four times with
four different teams, and let it just adds them. As
a hitting coach, that's really difficult. I mean, right now,
hitting coaches are getting fired on an annual basis um
and and it's just all the blame seems to always
be laid at the feet of either the pitching coach
of the hitting coach. Um, you're a psychologist, this guy's
(10:38):
a psychologist. On a daily basis. I mean, really, when
a guy struggling, like a really accomplished it is struggling.
Even you can talk about the guys that are not
accomplished it, but the ones that are when they get
into a tough streak, man, it's hard because that's you
have to almost almost speak with them post every at bat.
I mean they get to that particular point. So it
goes well beyond the mechanics of hitting the physical side
(11:00):
of this thing. For me, as the seasons in progress,
it becomes increasing the more mental, the mental mechanics of
what's going on, and you have to be able to
be kind of like a psychiatrist with these guys on
a daily basis. Um. You know, you know yet bat
where they at bats over the hitter find you at
the rail and you stand at the rail and you
talk about what has just happened. I mean talk about
(11:20):
that too. People don't understand I mean the psychology, but
you do. Also, Yeah, there's a lot more of the
psychology than people think. Um, you're really trying to keep
them in a good headspace because there's so much doubt
in these guys minds. It's such a difficult thing to do. Um,
and they're gonna struggle. The best in the business m
(11:42):
v PS two times, three times, four time. M v ps.
I've seen him go through strings where you couldn't even fathom.
Um myself, Jeter go through an over thirty I've seen
a rod where um, you know, he didn't know if
he was gonna be perform and and go out there
and and be a rod. Um. Bryce Harper go through
(12:06):
struggles that um, you know, they just battled. They So
my job is to make sure that they're in a
good headspace. And how you do that and how you
go about it, well, you've got to know the individual.
You've got to know what makes them tick. Um. It
may be something to do with her family. It. Maybe
um we go have lunch it. Maybe we grind in
(12:26):
the cage and maybe we get the field early. Um
it maybe we look over from down and just see
if you know, um, we can find something there. Are
they not hitting the fastball right now? Are they not
catching up the stuff at the top of his zone? Um?
Do we need to work on breaking ball stuff? There's
just so much that goes into it. And I think
(12:49):
the key, uh is to stay positive number one, and
then understand the individual. If you understand the individual and
you understand what makes them tick, um, that's half the battle. Um.
And it's not easy. There's days where you know, I
have some self doubt on what I'm doing because it's
(13:10):
it's very intricate and there's a lot of things, UM,
that are involved. It could be something off the field.
It could be UM something pisces them off with their teammates.
It could be the managing And you know, my job
is to make sure UM that I'm getting the best
version of that athlete I can on a daily basis,
(13:31):
and that's that's what I strive to do. But we're
gonna take a quick break, and when we get back,
I want to take you inside the batting cage with
Kevin Long. There's so much information and honestly, gadgets available
to a major league hit her these days. Let's get
into the cage next with Kevin Long. Welcome back to
(13:59):
the Book of Joe podcast. Our guest today Kevin Long,
hitting coach for the Philadelphia Phillies. And Kevin, I had
a fascinating conversation with you at the World Series about
some of the work you do in the cage. And
we all know there's so much information that's out there.
I mean, I'm lucky enough to go around different camps
and spring training and I see these caves and forest
plates and you walk in and to some hitting cages
(14:21):
and it looked like computer labs. Uh, And that's not
even speaking about all the different kinds of gadgets that
are available for guys to swing or different kind of
baseballs to hit at, and machinery I pitches and all
this stuff. So give me a sense if I'm a
Philadelphia Philly hit or I'm working with you in the cage,
where are the things you like? What have you found
works in terms of what's out there? What doesn't work well.
(14:44):
I've tried all the new stuff. I've tried all the
k best stuff. I've tried all the gadgets and pretty
much everything underneath um the moon, And what I found
out is um A t clips the machines just basically
(15:04):
the old school stuff works best for me. UM. I
love UM all the analytics. I love information. I'll dissect
and dig deep into um, you know, information and trying
to figure out ways. And basically I'm trying to paint
a picture for myself and the player on why things
are happening or why things aren't happening. Uh. And then
(15:28):
we're old fashioned. We're just gonna get in the cage
and and we're gonna grind it out. We're gonna come
up with drills um um and sequences and things that
we do that, are going to help that individual overcome
some obstacles. Um. We you know we have some bands
in there, we'll do some bandwork. Um, we're all. I'll
(15:49):
um put a belt around them. And basically what I'm
doing is just using the ground and keeping them into
the ground. And usually what happens when I do that
is they spread out and they get their base right, um,
and they become stronger into their lower half and their
legs without me even saying anything. I've had a net
drill that I've for years and I continue to do
(16:11):
that with almost Ryce Harper does it every day. UM.
But you know certain guys um gravitate towards certain drills. Um.
And and you know, hey, Kevin, let me stop you
right there, because I remember you at that net drill
going back to Robbie Cano. It's the first time I
remember that, and he wound up pulling the baseball with
(16:34):
power like nobody thought he had. So why don't describe
to our folks what you do with that net? You
take one of those protective nets and run it across
the center line of the plate. Correct. Yeah, So what
I'll do is I'll get them one bat length Basically
the knob of the bat. Um. You can put it
on their belly button and wherever the barrel ends up,
(16:55):
that's how close to the net they're gonna be. UM.
And I'll go out in front and I'll do front
flips um and basically I'm just gonna split the distance
between their body um and the net. UM. And what
it does is it gets them really really tight um
to their core. They have to use their lower half.
They can't um. They can't get away from their core,
(17:18):
they can't um. And what it does is it it
stops forward movement as well, so they can't rush out
to the baseball because they'll get jammed. UM. And Robinson's case, um,
it got his direction right, It got him tight. It
slowed down his forward movement, so it allowed him to
(17:42):
get two pitches that were, you know, closer to his
body um and he and basically I didn't have to
say much. I just did the drill um and he
got the field. And then in the game he would
he would ask me to say, you know, well, why
did I hit an opposite field home run? All we
did today was work on pulling the ball. I said.
(18:02):
What we did was we got your swing tight and
he started to use your corn, start to use your
legs better. Um, So what happened in this case again
is Robinson would have hit a home round and said, well,
we gotta do the net draw again today, when in
every single day, and you know, I told himself, Robbert,
you got to get to the field at two o'clock
to do this because I got all the other guys
(18:23):
showing up doing their normal routines at three, and he
had no problem showing up at two. Is okay, whatever
time you tell me to be there, to be there,
but I want to do the net drill. Aren't you
describing Barry bonds of swing? Also? I mean that's everything
you're saying right there, I'm saying bonds. I mean nobody
was nobody was shorter, no longer to the ball than
than him. And it's almost like he didn't have anything
(18:45):
happened behind him. And it's almost like I started here,
then all of a sudden, the pass out front and
the ball is going far. There's no way you could
beat him inside with any kind of velocity. It was
the shortest, quickest, strongest swing I saw him. I actually
saw him play at Arizona State right before you were
there at you have a and just watched how he
morphed into what he did eventually. But um, he is
the poster child for me for short swing and we're
(19:07):
choking up and we're hitting balls out of sight obviously,
but everything you're talking about, I would even imagine. I
don't even know if you know if Bonds did that
kind of a drill, but it almost seems like that
kind of a drill had an impact on on the
Barry Bonds. Yeah. And you know, Joe, when I started
uh and I got into it again, I leaned on JT.
Snow and who guy that I wanted, you know, his
(19:30):
swing and I wanted to mimic one. It was Barry Bonds.
The sorts most compact explosives I've ever seen. For a
guy to command the strikes on the way he did,
it was incredible. This guy was on top of the
dish and you could not be how do you do that? Well,
it's it's the net drill in essence, that's exactly what
(19:53):
very swing want. It was everything tight to the core.
I can remember story Trevor Hoffman goes, I'm working on
the cutter this offseason, and I want to work on
this cutter and I'm gonna bust it out Barry Bonds.
I said, okay, I'm thinking myself, good luck, pal. He
works the cutter all off season and he's got his
(20:14):
first situation of face Barrie and it's it's crucial. Um.
I think that's first and second padres are up by two. Um,
he's facing Bonds. Well, he busts out this cutter and
Bonds sits it into the water. Um. And I said, boy,
So I called Trevor a couple of days. I gave
him a couple of days. I said, how did that
cutter work? Buddies? Unbelievable? Well, what you're talking about. Also,
(20:39):
what I love is you you set up field drills
because you want to stay away from a lot of
mechanical conversation. But if you could put a guy in
a position to feel exactly what you're talking about the
movie trying to create and then he says, I feel
it as you're watching it and saying that's right now,
we've got something. The moment to me an athlete, we're
talking about hitters right now, I could tell you that
(21:00):
they feel it. That's the moment that they know it
while you're actually and observing that it is the correct move.
So that really resonates with me because I wasn't hitting
coach for a bit and the minor leagues with the
Angels too, and I was big on field drills because
anytime you could get your point across mechanically without having
to talk about mechanics, you're really getting something done. I
(21:23):
agree with that, and I'll come up with drills um
and do stuff with guys and I'm not even telling
them why I'm doing it. I just want them to
feel it, and that's what they'll say, Oh, I feel that.
I feel how tight I like not swinging hard and
the ball is jumping off my bat um and I
feel like I'm I'm going to get the ball as
(21:45):
much as I was before. And so I'll come up
with drills and and things um in the cage um
out on the field. That kind of gives them that feel.
And if I can get the feel and get them to,
you know, tell me, yeah, that's it. I feel that,
then then we're on the right path. Agree with that. Man,
(22:05):
that's great stuff. And obviously any great hitting coach knows
there's no cookie cutter method. You're dealing with individuals, human
beings and Kevin, I know you're great about that. So
if I can, I want to do a rapid fire
here going through some of the great hitters that you've
worked with, because they are different, they respond differently, approaches
are differently, So real quickly with some guys, just give
(22:26):
me what comes to top of mind in terms of
what they do well, what stands out when you're dealing
with this kind of a hitter. Let's start with a
guy you had now both in Washington and in Philadelphia,
Bryce Harper. Explosive. I mean when I look at Bryce site,
it's it's one of the most explosive swings I've ever seen.
And to be kind of that violent um and have
(22:50):
the back to ball skills that he has, Um, he's
just special. I mean I really admire um what this
guy has done. He's made changes in a swing. When
you saw him when he first came up to where
he is now, it's a completely different swing. I mean
the violence is still there, but he's controlled his movements
a lot better, especially now we see him spread out
(23:11):
like you're talking about with two strikes. So great example there.
How about Juan Soto, another guy with an unbelievable bass
underneath him. The best young hitter I've ever seen, and
to this day be the best swing I've ever seen
besides Barry Bonds. Um Wan Soto Um is almost perfect
(23:34):
with this wing. It's really that good. But having said that,
you go, you know, he hit two forty something last year,
So even a guy with that swing can go through
some struggles. It's a hard game just to tweak Joe here,
Daniel Murphy. What did you do with Daniel Murphy? Wow? Yeah,
(23:54):
just gonna throw that one out there. That was the
most obscene four games I've ever seen in my life.
Let me tell you, in so many ways, he is uh,
he's got a end of his own. He thinks differently
than most people. I remember when I first met Murph,
I had this list I do offseason stuff with with
guys swings, and I write all these notes. Why had
(24:16):
all these notes on mirth? And he said, well, why
would I change anything I do. I'm making eleven million
dollars right now. I said, well, what if you could
make twin? What if there was more in their mirth?
He said, all right, I hear you. Let's let's try it.
So in spring training, Um we started messing with this swing,
(24:37):
doing some things, and after many he might have been
hitting two oh five to ten. It was not very good.
It was the year that Joe was talking about where
he went crazy in the playoffs. You think importonists, don't you,
I said, I surely hope not, because I think you're
starting to get it. He goes, Oh, yeah, I'm getting it.
He said, it's it's coming. I can start. I'm starting
(24:59):
to feel it. And Joe was talking about he started
to feel it, and by the end of the season
he was right where he needed to be. And then
the playoffs started, and this guy was a man possessed.
I've never seen anything like it. It was seven home
runs in seven straight games against the best pitching in baseball,
one after another. It was Arietta to Lester to Fernandal
(25:24):
Rodney at homer off of Kershaw Grinky. It was. It
was unbelievable. It was. It was a fascinating run. I
also like the fact that you referenced his batting average
and not his OPS. He was sitting two five, he
was sitting to his His OPS wasn't like six seventy
three or something like that. And I had Daniel, I
had Daniel no, exactly, we're talking. I love the guy.
(25:45):
I we still we texted this this this winter already.
Um uh a unique young man, really bright these Uh
you're not. You just can't tell him stuff like ka
long salk. You just can't say stuff to him. You
got to really back it up because he will challenge
you every and I love that. I love when a
play are will challenge my theories or what I'm saying
(26:06):
to him. And those are the guys that make you
better coaches, because there's nothing you're going to get away
with with talking to the s guy unless of substantiated.
And Daniel is a perfect example of that. And yeah,
I mean listen, he hit everything. He hit everything that series.
I don't care if it's breaking ball down, fastball in
elevated whatever. It was incredible to watch a display that
he put on. Well here here's another fascinating thing. He says, Okay,
(26:30):
I'm gonna sit on Fernando Rodney's changing right in the
middle of history. Murph, you do whatever you need to
do out of your way, right. So he goes up
there and he hits a nineties seven mile out of
fastball off Rodney the right centery. It's a Homer and
he comes in and he's shaking his head. He goes,
(26:51):
don't ask me. I don't even know how Hey, Kevin,
how about how about Derek Jeter? To me, of all
the guys I've covered, he may be the most routine
oriented great player that I've been around. Just the same
guy every day, Like it's the same guy. You wouldn't
know if he was over twenty or twenty. He did
(27:13):
the same and he acted the same every single day.
And I tell you know, we had a we have
a kid, Alec Bomb, and Bomb would like where his
emotions on his sleeve, and he'd have a chip on
his shoulder and it was just so up and down.
And I said, I'm gonna give you an example of
a guy might have been one of the greatest players
(27:34):
that's ever played, who never changed. You couldn't tell I
want you to be more like him. And this guy
was his name was Derek Jeter. And when he came
to the cage, it was the same routine every single day.
It was the same drills. He never he never got
off that, he never got away from it. I mean
there was times where I wanted him to pull the ball.
(27:55):
He pulled the ball. I don't pull the ball, klong.
I'm not doing anything that with Poland I'm not gonna
do um And that was That was Derek Jeter. It
was incredible to watch him because nobody stayed inside the
ball longer than he did, or try to do it more.
I mean, you knew that as a pitching staff, you
knew that. As a defense, you knew that you hit
the ball in the ground. I've never had such a
(28:17):
good player opposition wise that hit more groundballs than he did.
That was as good as he was. Um. It was
just constantly, like you said, stayed with one method and
and it worked and he made it work, and it
was you have to be really um strong mentally in
order to do something like that. But I've never I mean,
everybody knew what they wanted to do against him, and
(28:38):
you try to do but if you made one mistake
just a little bit over the plate, it was gonna
get ripped. And I'll tell you what, if there's runner
in scoring position late in the game, two outs, the
ball is gonna find grass in the outfield. Somehow. That's
just who he was. I think I was absolutely fascinating.
He really and the bigger the situation, the more I
knew he was gonna come through correct, truly felt that.
(28:58):
So an age Tom Joe we talked about lonch Angle
and the ball in the air. Eric Jeter had the
lowest no I think career of any any guy that's
ever played, which I think it was like one. Hendrick
was very low and I think he was at four.
And they did the same thing. They backed the ball
(29:19):
up and they hit the ball the other way. That's
what made Derek Jeter a Hall of Famer and what's
what made him so great. If you think about it,
if you're going to hit an off speed pitch, but
you already backed up the ball, it kind of helps
you do that. So that's helpe Jeter and it helps
Howie Kendrick tremendously because they were always able to back
the ball up. When you backed the ball up the
(29:41):
way they did, it's hard to hit it in the air.
It's just if you're bad enough time to work the
proper angle. So um, that's the way they hit. Um.
They were you know, both those guys, Howie and Jeter.
Um to me, Um, we're very much alike in it
and their thought processing and how they swung them ay
(30:02):
one more for you. K It's a guy that you
and Joe know really well, Kyle Schwarber. And one of
the things we like to do on this show is
we talk about guys we call glue guys, guys who
contribute to the team because they their mortar. They bind
the team together, they see beyond themselves, they make the
guys around them better. And I remember you telling me
(30:23):
about Kyle and some of the things he did in
two for Bryce Harper specifically. UM, so give me your
take on Schwarb's just helpless. I mean, all he cares
about is winning. That's it. It's all he wants, all
he wants. And he's in the cage and he'll be
down there with his coffee and he'll get down there
at one o'clock and we're just shooting the ship for
(30:45):
hours and we're just talking baseball. We're pulling up video
and we're talking about guys on the team. Uh, it's
not even about him, it's just about other people and
um trying to get the team to jail. I remember
we were, you know, I just got to Philly and
we were talking about free agents, and UM, they said, well,
(31:08):
you know, our clubhouse is a little fraid we're missing
something in that clubhouse. And I said, well, I got
a I got a guy, and I said, he'll change
the whole complexion of that clubhouse. And the guy's name
is Kyles Farber. And you know he's gonna be hit
or missed, and there's gonna be some times where you
(31:28):
know you don't want him at the plate. He's just
he's um, you know. But at the end of the day, UM,
he's going to help everybody in that clubhouse become the
best version of themselves that they can possibly be. UM.
So they targeted Swarber and he did what he do
and I'll tell you what. That clubhouse and that team
(31:50):
jailed and came together, and Kyle's Farber Um, in my opinion,
deserves most of the credit for that. He handles failure
really well, especially obviously at the plate. I mean, even
going through bad moment said that he doesn't lose his confidence.
He might, at least he won't show it. He's always
the same cat every day. And I really believe where
(32:12):
he comes from. His family has a lot to do
with this. He comes from a family first responders, very
blue collar, and he's very very grounded. I grew up
in Indiana, played football there. Whatever, But he is He's
exactly who you think he is. There's nothing kidden. There's
no pretense about this guy whatsoever. He is. He is.
(32:32):
He is the dirt he is that. He's that solid,
and so he handles adversity well because he could strike
out ten times in a row and he'll tell you
look at you straight in the eyeballs with that look,
with his big brown eyes, and he just goes right
through you. And I'm fine, I'm gonna get this guy
right now. I'm gonna get him this that bat. And
he believes it, and that's a big part of the
why it's so successful. So I was looking at something.
(32:53):
Kyle Slober started off the playoffs over twenty. I don't
know if you remember he was over twenty. You know
what Kyle Farber ended up doing in the playoffs, ended
up with a nine thirty seven O p s. I
know you don't. That's fine, We're good. I mean he
hit to eighteen is on base was four he slugged
at and we were talking about this. He goes, you know,
(33:17):
give me, let's go through my stuff from last year.
So because he's gonna start hitting today. Okay, this stuff
and I'm going, dude, the playoffs, he goes bro I
started off the playoffs over twenty I was like, he
had fifty five at bats. So it's just it's just
takes to cosh Warber and who's right on team player. Hey,
(33:40):
we're gonna take a quick break and we get back.
I really want to ask Kevin about new rule changes
in baseball in three I have a feeling he's gonna
like him. Hey, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts.
(34:03):
And I mentioned rule change is the one that stands
out obviously is defensive positioning. Uh, no more shifts, No
more infielders playing on the outfield. Grass Um and Kevin,
I think about especially the left handed hitters, and just
to throw some numbers at you, I mean you're aware
of this trend obviously, going back to before the world
went crazy with shifts. If you are a lefty and
(34:26):
you hit a ground ball to the pull side, you
hit a buck eighty six. It's not great. Nobody wants
to hit groundballs, but sometimes you get a hard ground ball.
Back then, it was a base hit. Last year, remember
what SI last year with all those shifts same groundballs
to the pull side for lefties one and it was
one thirteen when there was a shift in play. So basically,
(34:49):
if you're a lefty and saw a shift, you hit
a ground ball, you're out ninety percent of the time.
And that's going to change, Kevin, you know that with
two infielders have to be on each side of the
bag and they cannot be on the outfield grass. So
give me your sense of what we're going to see
how it will change baseball. Well, it's gonna change. It's
(35:10):
gonna help the hit her, no doubt about it. Um,
there's gonna be more run scored, there's gonna be more
traffic on the basis UM, And I think hitting is
gonna get back to UM guys being able to move
the ball the way they want to. UM. You know,
the whole era of getting the ball in the air
(35:32):
and this whole launching will evolved because if you hit
a ground ball basically the pull side, you were out.
So what happens is you have to start working out
in front of the baseball. So strikeouts are gonna increase
because you're trying to elevate the ball and you can't
elevate the ball by hitting it off your back hip.
So what happens is you start working out in front
(35:53):
of the baseball and strikeouts increase. UM, and guys, you know,
just they forget how to hit. Um. You know that's
simple stuff on getting a guy in from third and
and moving runners. It becomes non existent. Um. You know,
lefty lefties had to work so far out in front
(36:13):
of the ball. It ruined Brian McKinnon swing. It literally
ruined this wing. He knew anything to the pull side
on the ground he was out. Um. It affected Jay
Bruce when I had him a lot, Um, Curtis Granderson,
it actually might have helped him because UM, I don't
he was able to there was a fine line, but
(36:34):
he was able to hit a lot of home runs
because we knew that any groundball to the pull side
would have been out. But for the most part, Um,
it hurt hitters and it hurt their ability to move
the baseball the right way. So I'm excited, um for
what's about to happen. I think you're gonna see the
averages go up. I think you know, hitting so hard anyway,
(36:58):
and we need some more confidence in what we do.
Joe was talking about how hitting coaches don't last. Well,
the reason why they don't last is because it's hard
to be consistent hitting, it really is, and and good pitching,
for the most part, beats good hitting. Um, so this might,
you know, I don't equal out the plane surface a
little bit. We'll see what happens. You know, it's it's
(37:22):
definitely gonna gonna favor the hitter. But that's really music
to myers because I agree with all what you're saying there,
keb I, Um, I really um. I would like to
see a retro kind of thing, going back to the
original game at baseball the way they've been played. Um,
what's what are you? What are you gonna compensate for?
That's part of the problem too. I mean the home
runs are being compensated for. Strikeouts are okay, don't worry
(37:43):
about striking out. It's okay to strike out and try
to accept your walks. Under those circumstances you're talking about,
hitter is lefties with less time to make a decision
and longer swings, which then led to more out in front,
ground ball, strikeouts being fold etcetera. I'm into compensation. I
think you know, at the end of the day, which
whatever you want, compensate for it. So if you want
to see greater batting averages, which will also lead to
(38:06):
some opious it's gonna lead to runs being scored with
two ounce. It doesn't have to be a home run,
situational hitting, moving runner second and third with lesson to
us the ball has been moved, run run third, and
feel then feel back. I mean, all this stuff that
we drilled and you drilled that you have and beyond
with kse, etcetera. It's kind of gone away, man, because
I mean, I've been involved in meetings the last couple
of years where people sitting on the sidelines talking about
(38:30):
this stuff really aren't interested. They aren't interested in those
things because again, at the end of the day, they
don't think it's going to impact the winning baseball team.
But with like you're saying, the new rules being in place,
I think there's gonna be a greater emphasis on execution
once again, and I'm looking forward to because that's that's
to me, what the fans are missing. And when you're
talking about us losing appeal on a broader sense and
(38:51):
a broader scale, because the game has become boring because
it is so predictable, and the lack of predictability would
be hitters that are able to do other things. Put
the ball, play, moved the ball, play the game as
that have been designed. But if you're gonna do that,
compen safe for it. Right down to stealing bases, you're
talking about bigger bases, less distance between the both go
ahead and compensate base stealers, UH based stealing champions, etcetera.
(39:15):
Whatever you want to get out of the game, compensate
for a little bit more, because you got what you
wanted with the strikeouts and home runs when it was
compensated for. And that's exactly what happened. And I talked
to our guys when we get into the playoffs, I said, gentlemen,
this is gonna be about how we command the strike zone,
our discipline at the plate, and our ability to move
(39:36):
the baseball and do the little things. So we got
done with our first two series is and UM. At
the end of those first series against St. Louis UM,
we were five for five with runners on second moving
on to the third, and I think we were nine
for sixteen getting guys in from third. So those types
(39:58):
and I and I would reiterate this to these guys.
I said, okay, after the first two series, I think
were seven for seven, moved runners from second and I
don't know, maybe I don't have me, but it was very,
very good. And what happened was we started to believe
in each other um our teammates, and we started to
(40:19):
do the little things. UM. And when you do that,
you start to build team camaraderie. And it was happening,
each guy to a man um harbor. At one point Bunted.
I was like, oh, I don't I don't know about that,
but you know we he did it, he Bunted. I
think it was against St. Louis. He laid down a
(40:39):
bunt Um. But guys became selfless and we started to
be developed as a team. UM. And that's truly what
happened is um. It was offensive baseball at its best.
And then it becomes very very difficult at times to
do that, especially when you're facing the likes of the
Houston Astros pitching staff. UM. It just became harder up
(41:03):
to ext a cute. But nonetheless, that's that was our
goal going in. Last point with that, I mean, when
you're talking about here, it's not a physical adaptation. This
is all mental you guys. You guys decided as a group,
we're gonna do this. So then when you're taking batting
practice wherever you're working, you call it a situation, and
the hitter then adapts and makes the adjustment. How do
I do this? How do I get the ball the
(41:24):
ground on the right side. They'll do something internally because
they know what it takes to move the ball to
that side. It doesn't take a mechanical thought or adjustment.
It takes a mental thought or adjustment. And that I
called adaptation. So that when you get the whole group
thinking that way, brother, you guys, you become very dangerous.
And I told you, guys, I said, that's actually what
happened with the Washington Nationals. We did the exact same thing. Guys.
(41:48):
We're playing team baseball. When you play team baseball and
you nine guys pulling the rope the same way, it
becomes a very very difficult situation for the other team.
And that's that's exactly what happened. Kevin. I got one
more job for you where you get out of here.
Of course, our podcast is based on our book, The
Book of Joe, and we like to play a game
(42:10):
with our guests that we call a reading from the
Book of Joe. So you get to pick any number
between one and three. That's the number of pages in
the Book of Joe. And uh, I'm pretty confident, as
we've done before, no matter what page you turn to,
you're going to find something interesting in this book. So
(42:31):
it's your choice now, dealer's choice for Kevin Long one
through three D WHOA, let's go with three thirty three. Ah,
that's spoken just like a hitting coach. Is that your
gold standard? By the way, not just three hundred but three.
That just came to I just go it could have
(42:54):
been to ninety nine. I always like that. Okay, um wow,
this is about Joe's breakup with the Chicago Cubs. Um
of course this was um theo Epstein and Joe Madden
kind of their last meetings, if you will, where they
had a meeting in St. Louis pretty much mutually agree
(43:16):
that that that was it. Uh. So here's Joe talking
about kind of what led to or at least finished
off really was an unbelievable marriage. I wanted more involvement,
I wanted good information, Joe says, And I've never turned
my nose to the information. Ever, all of a sudden,
the information started to become more and more important to
(43:37):
the people upstairs, more vital to what we're doing. To
the point, and I think this is where my big
rub is, they started eliminating jobs. Guys that have put
in their time were not wanted anymore. The newer front
office guys really did not want to hear from the
old baseball guys, and they especially did not want to
hear their evaluations because the new method evaluation had to
be done in an analytical perspective. It was in their
(44:00):
minds eye more precise. It's subtractive feel, It subtracted experience,
it was more unaffected. It was pure because the numbers
lacked emotion, the process lacked emotion. I always talked about
the process as being fearless. Maybe that's the part of
what their aspirations were to have this fearless method. I
(44:21):
admit I kind of agreed with it sometimes, So there
you go. We talked about the balance between data and art. Kevin,
and I know you deal with this on a daily basis,
because that's what baseball is. It's a balance of the two.
There is that was well said by the way, because
I think we've all been in those situations, especially if
(44:44):
we've been around as long as we have, and Joe's
been around a long time and seeing to go the
game evolved into maybe a little bit more analytical than
than baseball on the field and guys that just have
been there, done that. Um, the old school way of
doing things. Um, there's a lot of good data, there's
a lot of good people, but there's gotta be a mix,
(45:06):
and there's gotta be um you know that that there's
gotta be value for the baseball people that really does
and when it when it's ways the other way, it
becomes difficult. So um. And and you know what the
other part of that is is I've been through that
where I've had a marriage, uh, and it's ended and
(45:28):
it's not easy, especially you know my marriage with the Yankees.
The Yankees was tough when it ended. Um, but um,
you know it was I have a lot of good memories,
as Joe has a lot of good memories with THEO.
Um those were everlasting, that will be there forever. Um.
I think that's what you gotta lean on, is the
(45:49):
good times. But um, you know, I think that the
mix between the two is vital to one last point.
I'll turn it back to you told me. I'm just
my biggest concern is that the words feel, experience, wisdom
do not become archaic. I mean, they're they're they're they're
really almost frowned upon when you're bringing something like that
(46:10):
up in a meeting and you express yourself as something
as a field or something I've experienced, and then you
don't even want to talk about wisdom. That's for somebody
else to determine if you have that or not. But
it's almost becoming archaic UM and people uh looking for
more controllable commodities, people that lack that stuff because I
want to tell you what to feel, what to think,
and how to react, as opposed to have me gone
(46:32):
through the gauntlet starting in UM extended spring training, what
nineteen ninety nineteen, So whatever that was for you whenever
whenever you started, it's not not nineteen and you started
playing whenever you started, you're extended spring training. That is experienced,
that's wisdom, that's feel that you developed by through trial
and error. And there's times you did the absolute wrong thing,
(46:53):
but you did it on the back field where nobody
can notice and you could fix it, and you could
talk to people and you could almost apologize, which I've
done for some of the stupid things I've said to people.
But uh, those really important things that I'm concerned are
going to become more of an our kig part of
our baseball society and society in general. Yeah. And there's
there's coaches that are guys that just played and they
(47:15):
think that coaching is easy, and they think they should
start off big weeks. Right, I spent eighteen straight years
and minors eighteen straight and people go, God, you've you've
you've had it so easy, right, things things have worked
out so good for you. Yeah, well you should have
been there in those bus rides. You should have been
there when I was making thirty two thousand or less
(47:35):
for fifteen straight years. I mean those are facts. Um,
those are who what made me who I am today.
And people think, just because you know, they had this
marvelous baseball career, that they can just walk into coaching
and it's gonna and it's that's not the case. I
think you gotta, you know, put in the time and
(47:56):
do do the analytical people do that? Do they where
do they start? They start right at the top, or
do they have to go through some trial one error.
I mean, I don't I don't know. It just doesn't
seem like some of these guys have have been through
the grind um the way they should. But I don't know.
That's whole another discussion. Well, we talked about it all
the time here, Kevin. The struggle. You know, the struggle
(48:19):
is a beautiful thing. There's nothing wrong with it, and
you more than paid your dues to get where you're at.
One more thing, Kevin, before you go. If I'm a
Phillies fan, what a ride? Man? I mean, last year
was just unbelievable. That place was electric. The vibe is
back in Philly. What can you tell a Phillies fan that, Hey,
this wasn't a one hit wonder. It's like we've got
(48:39):
something sustainable here. This wasn't a hot team, you know,
through the month of October, but there's something that's just
getting started. Um, give us something to hang onto there.
If you're a Phillies fan, Trade Turner would be one,
not bad one. Taiwan Walker might be another. Um. It's
the fact that the John Milton is not content, he's
(49:02):
not sure it was a great run and um, you know,
there's some good things happening in Philly, but ultimately we
felt short of our goal, which was to win the
World Series. Um what did John Middleton go out and do?
He said, let's let's go get some some more players,
get some more death. Let's let's take this a little
(49:22):
bit further and see what happens. So, um, you know,
we still have Nolan and Wheeler at the top of
our rotation. Ranger Swarez is as good as anybody, Taiwan Walker.
We got a young kid, Andrew Painter, who's um, a
fabulous young pitcher who's the nineties six to a hundred. Um,
We've got a great offense, um, and we got a
(49:44):
we had a lot of good things happening. UM. So
we'll we'll see where this takes us. But the Philly
fans are I should be excited about about this team,
about where we're going and about what we're trying to accomplish.
Awesome stuff. Really, this has been a pleasure, Kevin. We
could talk all day. It's just so fascinating, and you're
(50:05):
not only great at what you do about you're great
explaining it. So we appreciate your time. Bett Thanks guys,
it was it was a blast. That was awesome. Thanks
Ka Long appreciate your brother. Happy New Year, Happy New Year,
do you guys see Babe? Alright, Sabe, Tommy, you just
we were just talking kind of off air a little
bit with Kevin. But UM, I think more people need
to hear Kevin speak on subjects other than just hitting. UM.
(50:25):
I mean I'm sitting here, We're sitting here doing the
City of You almost an hour and you could hear
the completeness of his baseball acumen. I mean, this guy's uh,
he relates to people, he's got. He definitely established his
trust within the group. He has definitely connections regarding relationship building. Uh,
there's so much going on there. And I think when
(50:47):
a guy is a hitting coach, especially, I think even
so a certain extent a pitching coach, you get known
as that and it's almost like being a character actor.
You can't be the leading man. But when you listen
to him, UM, I'd love for him to get more
opportunities to be heard because I think he uh, he's
a man for all seasons. He speaks about the new
with the old. UM. I think when he explains himself
(51:09):
it's really lucid and um, if you're looking for a
higher right there, my goodness that you don't have to
look much further. I know, you know he's not maybe
an analytical maybe and sometimes that turns people off, but
he's he always he said it already. I mean, he's
into all that stuff, but he wants to more things
together and not just try to get to top heavy
with one or the other. So I just I would
(51:31):
just like to see where people listen to Kevin. I
think his message was outstanding. Yeah, great observation. I'm with
you on that. You know, he did interview twice before,
once with the Mets when Mickey Callaway was hired and
then with the Nationals when Davy Martinez was hired. He
did manage a couple of years in the minor leagues,
winning percentage over six hundred. You can just tell hopefully
our listeners do listening to him. That's not just about hitting.
(51:53):
His overall philosophy and above all else, his communication strengths,
which to me is job one with the major league manager,
those are off the charts. And you know, maybe he's
another lou Pinella. I mean, lou Pinella was a great
hitting coach, and you know it kind of broke through
that mold as a manager wind up winning a World
Series with the Cincinnati Reds. Charlie Manuel Charlie is the
(52:14):
same guy. Perfect example. Yeah, it could be the next
next role for Kevin Longber right now. He's as I said,
I think he's the best hitting coach in the game.
That was a pleasure listening to him. All right, Joe,
that's another edition of the Book of Joe podcast. You
got something to take us out? I do. I think
it's like perfect for everything that just we talked about today.
Kevin the time that he spent grinding through the minor leagues.
(52:36):
Hitting coaches, they pretty much live in a concrete tunnel
called the betting cage or tunnel underneath the ballpark stands.
And I think this is perfect. This comes from Andrea Agassi.
All the good stuff is on the other side of tired. God.
I love that it's all about work. As he's talking
about the grind um. You see all the wonderful things
(52:57):
that occur in an athletes life, but it really is
on the other side of tired. That's outstanding. I love it.
Amen to that. See you next time, all right, brother
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