January 3, 2023 • 49 mins
The Book of Joe Podcast begins with hosts Tom Verducci and World Series Champion Joe Maddon welcoming Golf Analyst and former caddie John Wood to the show. In our theme of 'Glue Guys', Tom wants to discuss the importance of a caddie and golfer working together to bring success. John takes us on the greens to describe the working relationship between a caddie and a golfer and how it differs from a coach or trainer. Despite any differences on or off the course, John stresses the importance of trust between a golfer and caddie. John explains how someone gets into being a caddie and how long it takes to be comfortable in the role. Joe explores how golfers stem the flow of too much information affecting their game. We learn why and how Tiger wins tournaments with his prep and consistency. We wrap with 'A Reading from The Book of Joe' with John picking page 22, in honor of his favorite SF Giants' Will Clark.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
#fsr
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My
Heart Radio. Hey there, welcome back to another episode of
the Book of Joe with Me, Tom Berducci and three
time Manager of the Year Joe Madden. Joe, I guess
it's time to say Happy New Year. It is. It's
(00:24):
getting right there. I had a great Christmas. I hope
you did also. Um, I don't know. I'm not much
of a New Year's celebrator like we had been in
the past, although I'm trying to make a commitment to
be a little bit more hedonistic than I've been lately.
So maybe we'll get out there and have a good
time in some in some method or way. But I
need to do that. For those math fans out there,
(00:45):
is a big year because three is called a hard
shot number, where you add up the numbers of the number,
which in this case is seven, and if that is
a divisor of the number, you have a harshot number
two eight nine times seven three. Why is that important
Because the word are shot means joy giver, So we're
(01:05):
in for a year of joy. Joe, get ready, I
just said that. He just here, let's go, not even
realizing that. Well, you know, our our book. The Book
of Joe is a book that sensibly it's about baseball,
but we dive into a lot of areas and that
that's why I'm excited about our guests today. You're saying,
why are you having a former caddy and golf analyst
(01:28):
on the Book of Joe podcast? Well, he's a great
listen Uh. Mark john Wood has been a caddy was
it caddy? For twenty four years and then he decides
to jump into the TV business and immediately becomes the
best golf analyst on TV. And I really mean that.
He's a pleasure to listen to. He's getting busy for
the Hawaii swing right now. Welcome John. Would I guess
(01:48):
I bury the lead? John? Also San Francisco Giants fan. Uh,
you know at this time you can bury that lead.
I'm totally fine with that with what's going on there.
But thanks for having me on, guys. This is a
true pleasure for me. Well, one of the things we've
been exploring, John, is the idea of glue guys in
baseball and bands, movies, any place that involves teamwork, and
(02:11):
a lot of people might be thinking, well, golf is
such an individual sport. What does a glue guy have
to do with golf, And that's why Joe and I
immediately thought about you and the job of a caddy.
So give us an idea of the dynamic. We know
that the guy holding the trophy, he's the one who
signs the scorecard, he gets the glory. But how important
(02:33):
is the caddy in terms of keeping things together either
on or off the course. Yeah, it's it's a great question,
and if there is a glue guy in golf, I
definitely would say it is the caddy. Um. Golf is
very unique in that during play, you're you're the only
guy that can give advice to your player. Is coach can't,
his sports psychologist can't, his trainer can't. Nobody else can
(02:55):
except for you. So you try and take all that
information that he's working on with his swing coach, with
his short game coach, his psychologist, his trainer, his wife.
You know is something going on? You know it was
the kid up all night in the hotel room and
he didn't get any sleep. So you're taking all that
information as a caddy, you know, sometimes noting it down,
sometimes just putting it in your in your brain, going okay,
(03:16):
I might need to talk about this at some point
today and trying to bring it all together for him,
but you want to, uh leave him out of it
as much as possible. He he doesn't need to know
any of the stuff you're talking about with his coach,
with his psychologist, anybody. But in case you need it,
you can bring it to him at certain key points
in the round. So that that's kind of how I
(03:38):
see a glue guys in terms of a caddy working
out there. Um, so it's a it's a great concept.
I love the concept of a glue guy. Those were
always my favorite players anyways. But um, you know, I'd say,
if there is in that team, uh, the caddy is
definitely the glue guy in golf. Does this include like
a pre tournament meeting that you might have, like the
practice round you're walking the course? Uh, do you go
(04:00):
through like almost like a prep, like a pre series
prep like a major leage team would do going into
a series. Yeah. I I never let uh when we
got to a course, I never wanted the player to
get on at the same time I did. I wanted
to be out there Monday or Tuesday before the practice round,
look over everything, figure out how my player whether it
(04:21):
be Matt Cootcher or Hunter Mayhan, Mark Calcabekia, how he
was gonna best play that course. And it's very different
for everybody. Um, you wanted to the biggest thing, Joe
is not wanting any surprises during the round. You're you
don't want your pro to have surprises. You want to
be prepared for everything. So um, like one day you'll
(04:42):
you'll play a hole and it's straight down wind and
you all you gotta do is hit a three iron
out there and you'll have wedge in your hand. You
knowing that the wind's gonna shift around, say after Friday.
You know, you look all that up during the week
and you want to make sure on Tuesday or Wednesday
you let them know, hey it's three iron today, but
by Saturday, when this wind completely turns around, it's driver
all day. Um. And here's why. So when he gets
(05:05):
to Saturday, he doesn't get out there and just grab
the three iron thinking okay, this is the play. We've
can make it all week it's worked. Um, you don't
want to have that discussion. Then you want him prepared
ahead of time. So yeah, a ton of homework um.
And and definitely, um, you know, you talk about how
to play the course, and caddies have their opinions, players
have their opinions, and it's usually the same page. I
(05:27):
would say, of the shot decisions, you're on the same page.
But those those five ten percent that you're not. Um,
You've got to have reasons to back up your decision.
And you can't just say it's a field. A player
can say, I feel like you can hit the shot,
and you're fine with it because they're the one hitting
the shot, they're the one making the swing. But as
(05:48):
a caddy, if you feel if you think he's hitting
the wrong shot, wrong shot, you've got to have reasons. Um.
You know, Matt, you hit this club two holes ago
the exact same direction. It carried one seventy three. You
only have to carry this one one seventy It's plenty
of club um or or or um. You know, things like, hey,
we played this part three two days ago. We were
(06:09):
on a different tea. You hit this club and this
is why you need two more here. Um. So as
you're constantly keeping that stuff in your brain um as
a caddy, and do you use it all? No, Because
like I said, usually you're on the same page. But um,
I always say, a good caddy has the answers to
ten questions that never get asked. And I always joke
(06:30):
with Michael Grell or Jordan's space Caddy because he gets
asked all those ten questions. Well, I was I was
wondering because as a bench coach. When I was a
bench coach, it's kind of like the same thing. It
sounds like you always have to be prepped for everything
here comes to game games in progress, things are happening,
and you have to either be able to suggest things
(06:51):
or just be a great sounding board one of the
other things. So when it came to giving suggestions, I
always took that very seriously in a sense because, um,
this is the guy that has to answer if it
doesn't work. So, I mean, when it comes to openly
making suggestions to your player, UM, this has to got
to be the residue of a great relationship that you built.
Also right, because sometimes you're gonna be wrong. I mean,
(07:11):
you're not gonna be right all the time, and you
have to be able to um absorb that, I guess
the best way to describe it. So when it comes
to the openness and your suggestions, it is there any
kind of trepidation at times, only because of how this
guy may react if it doesn't go right. That's a
that's such a good point. Um, if you have the
most important thing in a caddy player relationship is trust.
(07:34):
You might not have anything in common. You know, different politically, different, religiously, different,
the way you live your life. But if he trusts
you on the course and knows that you've done the
work to support your decisions, then he will believe you.
I mean, there are times when you've got to uh,
you know, dig deep and go Okay, I need three
or four reasons why I think this is the right shot.
(07:56):
I gotta keep going because he's not buying it yet.
But um, yeah, definitely. Um. A great example of that
is Tiger and Joe Locava. Joe Locava used to work
for Fred Couples for ages, now he works for Tiger
and Joe is is in my mind, one of the
best caddies of all time, no question about it. He's
so diligent, does all his work. But when you watch
(08:17):
or listen to to Tiger and Joe on the course,
when Tiger asked a question, Joe is very succinct and
very much yes, no, uh, Tiger, will this will this
club carry that bunker? Yes? No, Joe does not have
to go through those reasons, because Tiger knows he's already
done all the work. He's not guessing here, He's not
(08:39):
guessing that this club. He he knows Joe's gone and
done all that work. And to to have to go
through these arguments or to sit or discussions, it's not
necessary because he trusts Joe so much that he's done
the work. He knows Joe is not guessing. Um and
and other relationship you'll watch and Um, you do have
to go through everything. You have to explain why this
(08:59):
is the club, why you think this is right. Um.
And at the end of the day, it's the players decision,
and you have to leave it at that. If he
doesn't buy into what you're saying, then at the very end,
you've got to buy into what he's trying to do
and give him a percent confidence because these guys are
so good when they make mistakes. In my mind, it's
in decision. They're so good. When they are sure they've
(09:22):
got the right club, they're gonna make a good swing
or good enough swing. Tom And we've talked about this.
I E. Mike Borzello in the Game seven of the
World Series, calling the pitches to breaking balls to the
the hitter. There. Um, you have to be a really
good coach is not afraid to put his neck out
there based on what he believes in. There's some guys
that will do all the prep work in the world.
(09:42):
Then they'll they'll stay up all night to have all
this stuff in front of them. But do you have
the kind of cajone to make the suggestion in the
appropriate moment and not worry about it being wrong. To me,
that's the guy one on my staff. I don't want
the guy that again is ambivalent, is not sure, doesn't
want to hanging on his head if he's wrong. But
if you have that guy that's done the work and
is not afraid to make the question, that is truly
(10:05):
a valuable member of your team. Yeah, Joe, I would
add on to that. It's also the way the message
is delivered. You talked about Joe Lacava John being just
just so succinct and obviously a high level of trust.
My favorite caddy story on the amateur side in Alves
Roger Clement Roger Clements is playing at pebble beach in
the pro am and he's got it's not a full wedge,
(10:26):
and the caddy says, just choke down, flight it down,
you'll be good. And Roger and turns to and says,
what did you just say? You said, just choke up,
choked down on the club. He said, never use that word.
Don't even say that word to me. Careful. But I
always noticed that caddy's on TV. John, I mean, you
(10:47):
have to be a positive. I mean the last words
seemed to me always being it's the perfect club. Absolutely,
whatever it is, it's just reinforcement of yeah, you got it, yeah, absolutely.
You've got to be once the decision is made. You know,
you can't let him go into the shot um not
believing this is the right shot. And you watch his
(11:08):
body language, You watch his face when you ask him
a question about a shot, or you present something to him.
If he gives a long pause and he's kind of
staring out at the pin, you know, trying to noodle
through what you're telling him. You can tell when he's
not buying into it, and you have to keep going.
At that point, you can't just say I've made my
piece and watch him get over the shot. He doesn't
believe it yet, you know, which is it might as
(11:30):
well give him a driver from a hundred yards. If
he doesn't believe it, it's it's not the right shot.
So you are the catcher. You are the catcher. The
pitch selection matters, you know, it really comes down to it.
I mean, if you have indecision in your pitch selection,
it's gonna be a bad pitch of the time. It's
a perfect analogy. I was thinking about, you know, coming
on today, and and one of the things is is um.
You know, I figured, I feel like a bullpen session
(11:52):
before the round, before the game for a starting pitcher.
You're seeing what he has, what he worked, what's working,
what looks good, what doesn't. The same thing as a
caddier watching him warm up, going gosh, this this he's
not cutting the ball to day. It's just not going
left to right at all. So you're gonna have to
deal with that. Um. And then when you get out
into the course, obviously, the same thing is pitching. You
don't always bring what you had in the bullpen to
(12:13):
the mound. Same thing on the course. You might have
the greatest warm up in the world. You get to
the first tea. You hit a first bad tea shot
and his mind starts racing all of a sudden, So
you gotta pay attention early on what is he hitting
well today? You know, there's there's not always one right shot.
There's multiple ways to get a ball in the right
right spot. So if he's not hitting a high cut
(12:33):
good like you you know, well, like he normally does,
then you've got to work around it until he finds
that swing. You know, so, um, it's not one right shot.
You've got to figure out what he's doing well, what
he's feeling well about, and and really go with those
those swings until he figures out why the other one's
not working. Hey, John, we started out talking about how
the way a lot of people look at golf as
(12:54):
an individual sport, and I mentioned it is a team
sport in its own way, give us an idea and
in the caddy a lot of times is the glue guy.
The amount of people all that it takes for a
quote unquoted individual golfer, whether it's physios, coach, trainers, whatever
it might be. How many people is that caddy really
interacting with to bring out the best And this guy, sure,
(13:15):
it's it's amazing how big the teams have gotten UM
in the last ten fifteen years. Obviously, most guys have
a swing coach with them, not every week, but swing
coaches are probably out the most. UM. A lot of
guys have a separate short game coach who work on
you know, chipping and pitching and bunker shots and putting. UM.
They'll have a sports psychologist, they will have UM. Obviously,
(13:36):
the agents around you don't usually have to deal with
the agent too much unless it's a timing issue. If
you if you feel like he's your players getting tired
and spread a little thin, then you have to have
that conversation with the agent and say, hey, cut these
you know, cut these outings. The week of the tournament,
you're you're wearing this guy out. UM. So those are
the three main are are sports psychologist, UM, swing coach
(13:59):
and short game. But then you also need to go
to his trainer. UM. And if his trainer comes to
tell you, hey, his warm up was okay today, but
his back is tight or um, you know his you know,
his left wrist has has been bothering him. You need
to know that stuff so you don't call for certain
shots that he's not going to be able to hit Um.
He might not tell you that, but um, you have
(14:21):
to know that information. And like I said, even the
life you know, it's it's invaluable to have a good
relationship with with his wife or his girlfriend, knowing, Hey,
he didn't get any sleep last night, the baby was
up all night, or um, he didn't get a practice
a whole lot at home last week, we had some
stuff going on. Um, just to get all that in
your brain going into a week, so you can plan out,
(14:43):
um the week and you're in your head um as
to how to get him most prepared and freshest for
Thursday morning. The parallels are incredible. You're talking about you know,
talking about what we do every day. It's amazing. Is
there's so many parallels, and I want to explore one
more after we take a quick break. I always wondered,
how do you become a caddy Like you want to
(15:04):
become an umpire, you go to umpire school. I'm not
aware of any caddy schools, but apparently it involves the
literary world. John's gonna answer that when we get back. Hey,
welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast. Our guest
(15:26):
is John Wood. PGA Tour caddy for twenty four years
and now the best golf analysts in the business with
NBC and Golf Channel. John I t s this getting
into the world of caddying. I don't know what the
the quote unquote regular path is for someone who does
get involved in p g A caddying. But for you,
give us an idea of how it came about for you,
(15:46):
a guy who did play college golf. Well, I used
to say, how do you become a caddy? My My
line used to be, you fail at everything else in
life and then you end up as a caddy. But
I was I had played collegiate golf at cal Um,
didn't graduate from there. I never finished. But I was
kind of out of the golf world. I was playing
in here and there, and I knew some golfers. A
lot of my buddies who you know, went to college
(16:07):
and played Division one golf. Um, but I was managing
a bookstore in Sacramento. I was kind of playing golf
here and there, but certainly not thinking of a professional
career or anything. UM. I knew a player named Kevin
Sutherland very well from Sacramento. Knew his coach, Don Bacham
very well. Um. This was Kevin's second year on tour
and we were just out hitting balls one day and
(16:28):
he asked if I'd be interested in coming out and
trying it. Um. You know, I thought about it for
a week or two, and UM, I really I thought, well,
what else am I gonna have this chance? If I
fail at it, if I'm terrible with it, so what
I'll come back and and you know, get another job
or or or go in a different direction. Um. So
I just totally fell into it, fell in love with it. Um.
(16:50):
But even then I thought I'll do it for a
year or two and then get back to the real world.
And um, you know, I was almost thirty years ago
at this point, So I kind of fell into it.
It wasn't anything planned. Um. Today I think on tour
there there used to be you would get your tour
card and then you would go out and find a
(17:10):
tour caddy and and learned that he knew the courses,
he would lead you around. Um, and then he would
have to learn your personality. You're as a player, your personality,
what worked best for you. It's completely flipped now. Uh,
players are bringing out you know, brothers, college teammates, guys
who know their personalities very well and need to learn
(17:30):
how to caddy. So um, it's a it's a different
definitely a different dynamic the way it's turned into now.
But I think this way is better because I think
sometimes the the personalities and how to talk to your player,
when to give him a pat on the back and
when to give him a kick in the ass, um
is way more important than the xs and os the numbers.
(17:52):
So um, it's it's really changed over the years. So guys,
almost everybody now brings out a college teammate or a brother,
you know, Joe, he got me thinking. They're about you
talking in our in our book about the five levels
of being a perfect when you start as a caddy
no experience, there's a point we talked about this in
the book where you begin to believe I belong here.
(18:13):
How long was that? If you want learning curve for you,
John to understand that, you know what, I am pretty
good at this. You know it took it took a while,
because you know, playing high level amateur golf Division one golf,
you think you know the game and you think you
know golf, but when you get to that level, it
is so much more information and so much quicker. You know, guys.
(18:35):
Everybody thinks guys play slowly out there, and I agree
they do. But the amount of information they are going
through compared to what a good amateur going is going
through is mind boggling. If that's what I try to
do as an announcer. Sometimes it's really, you know, go through,
here's everything they're really thinking about. This isn't one two
nine iron, It's not that you've got so much more
(18:57):
information to go through to make sure you're hitting the
right shot. And they do it relatively quickly, most of them. So,
But about my I, UM, I I started out the
first couple of tournaments with Kevin was okay, but it
was very much a yes man, you know, because I
I didn't want to get in his way. I wanted him,
I wanted to learn, and once I had a solid opinion,
you know, and knew what he wanted, then I would
(19:18):
start interjecting a little bit. So it was probably a
good ten twelve tournaments in um. Once you give a
couple of really good pieces of advice that work out,
UM that you start feeling okay, I get it, you know,
I get it. And Joe, you said it, you know
earlier on. You can't be afraid to be wrong, and
you can't be out there trying to play Kate and
(19:39):
agree with this guy all the time because he's not
gonna be right all the time, no way. But he's
paying you for your opinion and you have to you
have to be able to give it no matter what
the situation and not be afraid of it. You can't
be afraid of losing your job. Um. I can tell
you know, watching and listening to guys, I can tell
when guys are just trying to keep their job and
(19:59):
when they're seriously cattying. Um. And it's a it's a
it's a vast difference in terms of of those two
approaches to catting. Absolutely, tell me what you think now
what you've heard. I want guys that are gonna give
me all of themselves. You just said it too about
the Triple A to the major league experience, where the
vast amount of information are so different. The minor leagues
(20:21):
primarily are to get your mechanics in order when it
comes down to the game planning. Of course, management things
like that are there, but they might become more important
as you get the Triple A at maybe the latter
part of double A. But when you get to the
big leagues. When I got to the major leagues as
a coach, was completely different. I thought I knew, but
I didn't. Um still ninety feet still sixty ft six inches.
(20:42):
Defensives are relatively the same, but the game couldnot have
been more different, and you have to learn that. You
have to learn. I had to learn as a coach,
just like you're suggesting, how do I help my guys?
What do I need? What level? What level do I
need to think at? What do I need to know
in order to be a contributing member of this coaching staff?
Because I wasn't when you're when you begin, and you're
saying it as a caddy. When I first began as
(21:03):
a major league coach, it was hard for me to contribute.
I didn't have I didn't know the league, I didn't
know the other players. I didn't know how this whole
thing worked. And then Tommy intimated there. I sat down
one night, and I don't even it just came to
me the five levels of being a professional. Level one
being happy to be here, Level to survival. I like this,
I want to stay here. Level three I belong to
(21:23):
I can do this. Your seminal moment occurs where all
of a sudden, it's like, wow, this makes sense. Now
I can contribute. Level four would be I want to
make as much money as I possibly can. That would
be as a player, because as a coach, God, you
just you're just at the mercy of some general manager.
And I was at the mercy. But then level five,
all I wanted to was win. And I think it's
easy for a caregory coach to fall into that category.
(21:44):
All I want to do is win. So you have
to go through those stages, I think in order to
really contribute in your situation to the player or for me,
the players that I was working with from the minor
league to the major league level. So it's really like
we just already talked about it. The unique Uh, it's
it's so similar what you do and what we've done,
what I've done in the minor leagues, and even your path.
(22:06):
I mean, I'm listening to you talk, it's incredibly similar. Yeah.
I mean once once Tom invited me Beyond I I
sat on the couch and read almost the whole book yesterday,
and I was amazed at the similarities. In in um,
you know, the preparation and the approach um. The biggest
difference I saw from from amateur golf high amateur golf.
Two pros like you said, get your fundamentals in order
(22:28):
when you get on the PGA Tour. If you get
to that level, you've got enough game in every part
of your game to succeed if you get there. But
when you get there, it's it's completely about playing the game.
How do I outthink this guy? How tough am I
in these these high pressure situations? Do I back off?
Do I? You know? So? I think for a player
(22:48):
and a caddy, it's much more about forgetting all those fundamentals.
They're here. You've got to accept that they're here and
believe that they're here and play the game. They become
embedded after a period of time. I mean, you have to,
whether it's batting practice, side piece on the map, taking
your groundballs, pregame. And I said, I'm I'm a now
an avid golfer. I've I've come back after thirty years
(23:09):
of not playing, and I'm a freak right now. Brother.
I mean, and when I go out to play, I
really got to get away from my mechanics in the
days that I do, I play the best. So it's
it's just it's the same everywhere. Man, we get caught
up in our own heads, and that comes to my
son asked me to ask you a question. Joey's spectacular, uh,
And he asked me to ask you. When you guys
get in their own head, and we all get in
(23:31):
our own heads, what do you do to get him
out of it? Is there anything you do specifically? That's
a great question, and it depends on how they're in
their head. Are they angry in their head? Are they
I'm lost, I don't know what my swing is doing? Um?
And are they just nervous? Are they just completely wrapped
up in nerves in this big situation? So you take
it different ways. If they're angry, you give them a
(23:52):
couple of holes to work through it. If they don't,
then you gotta give them some tough love, because at
that point, you know, the the nice hey you're you're great,
you're a great player, Come on, that doesn't work. They
don't want to hear that. You got to get in
their face and go, hey, quit it all right, you know,
knock it off. You're better than this. Let's go come
on and make one good swing or back in this
if they're nervous, um, and it's a big situation coming
(24:14):
down the stretch for the first time or at a
major and they're trying to win a huge tournament. Um,
I like, I think those times in between the shots
are just as important as the information you give during
the shot. Get his mind out of golf. Hey, uh,
you know with Couch it was you know, his two boys,
Cameron and and Carson are amazing athletes, So let's talk
(24:36):
about what they're doing. Hey, how Cam play in his
tournament last week? What's Carson doing? You know? Um? Other
times it's um, you know, did you see this movie?
So and so did you? I'm reading this book, and
here's what it's about. All of a sudden, they've got
they're out of their head even as for thirty seconds
and when they get to the ball, it's fresh. You know,
they didn't spend three minutes walking with their head down
(24:58):
slowly grinding on. This is so important. What if I
win this tournament or gosh, I'm not hitting the shot, Well,
what am I doing? Get him out of that, completely
out of it for for three minutes as they're walking
each of the ball. It's a fresh start. So there
there's there's different things, different approaches, and you gotta watch
their body language and to figure out what's best. It's
the silence between the notes to create the music. That's
(25:20):
what you just described, you know, And that's uh you're
and again Tom described you as the best analysts. Everything
you just told me makes you one of the better
coaches you've ever met and also one of the better analysts.
I mean I partly because I guess I really agree
with everything you just said. I think it's right on.
I appreciate that. And I say best analysts too, because
I know and you've you've heard it throughout this this
conversation here. You know John is well prepared to be
(25:42):
an analyst on TV, not just because of what he
did as a caddy, but his work habits. Because I
know in this business, preparation is, if not everything, it's
pretty darn close to it. And John, you know, going
into a telecasts, you're you are like a caddy, prepared
for any eventuality and have to respond in real time
in that moment, and not only respond, but be concise.
(26:04):
And to me, that's why I don't know if you
feel this, John, it's one of the great challenges to
distill all that information that you have. And for me
it's some if I'm a field reporter, get it in
between pitches, which is not a lot of time, and
for you, between shots and saying the right thing, a
lot of information distilled in a quick period of time
that's digestible and more than anything interesting. Uh, it sounds
(26:26):
like you'd like that challenge. You You do it so well.
I love it. And what happens typically is you know
you've got the producer in your ear, you've got the
telecast in your ear, and you know they're coming to you,
but you're not exactly sure. When you're not exactly sure
when this guy is gonna hit the shot, it's not
like it's you know, you have fifteen seconds every time.
So when I know they're coming to me and I'm
(26:47):
watching the guy's pre shot, are they still talking and
they picked the club? How man? I have more time
to extemporize on on what what's going on into this shot.
But when when you know they're coming to you for something,
you have a thirty second answer, a fifteen second answer,
and a seventh second answer. Um, you know, obviously if
you've got thirty seconds, you can talk a lot about
what's going into the shot, what they're talking about, the decisions,
(27:09):
what to avoid, what they're trying to do. If it
cuts down a little bit, you can knock some of
that out. And you know, if it's if it's the
seven seconds and you have got to get down to
the kernel. And and instead of saying one nine iron,
which I think is boring, I want to say, here's
this single most important thing about this decision and this shot,
(27:29):
and I want to get it in quickly. So you
kind of you're right along with the telecast and go okay,
I've got thirty noe, now I've got fifteen. Now I
want to have seven. Here's what it is. So yeah,
I love that challenge. Um and um, it's a it's
it's similar to caddying. You know, you don't want to
give your player a ton of information. He doesn't need
it all. You want to tell him the one thing
(27:50):
that's gonna make him believe in the shot. So um,
you know I try to do the same thing, uh,
you know, talking on the air as I did to
my player. Very cool. Well, Joe, you know, John is
a guy who travels with his guitar. So we have
to talk about music and especially rock and roll, and
we will right after a quick break. Welcome back to
(28:20):
the Book of Joe podcast with John Wood and John
I mentioned you travel with your guitar. You recorded some
music an album in fact. Um we talk here, Joe
and I about sometimes when you want to get your
head right, you jump in your car, you turn up
the stereo, you put Bruce on, uh, and just enjoy
the ride. For you what gets you right? Oh, I
(28:45):
can't express how big music has been in my life
for every reason. Um, It's been every as a as
a you know, the typical teenager. Um, there were certain
bands that that changed change my world. There's no question
about it. They changed my life and they continue to
do so to this day. Um, it's so important to
me in every way. UM. When the band R. E. M.
(29:07):
Quit being a band, I got to know those guys
fairly well over the years, and I wrote a letter
to them when they when they finished at talking about
how amazing it was that they provided the soundtrack to
so much in my life. You know, when I hear
certain songs, I'm immediately transported back to a person or
a place or a time in my life. Um, you know,
(29:27):
and music to me has always given me. If I'm
in a good mood, it can make me in a
better mood. It can take me higher, you know. Um
if I'm in a you know, a sad mood, Um,
it's um it's almost like a friend saying I understand
what you're going through here. I mean, you're gonna get
through it. Don't worry about it. It's it's okay to
be feeling like this. And and UM, that to me
(29:50):
is it's I listen to music so much and play music.
It's uh, other than than you know, finding little league
games and minor league games on the road. First thing
I do is look at all right, who's in town
this week? And I go see any shows. So it's uh,
it's invaluable in my life. Losing my religion, brother, yes, absolutely,
absolutely one of my favorite. Can I just go back
(30:11):
for one second, Tammy, because you kind of you kind
of touched on last segment, John. Uh. The overabundance of
information too much, a glut of information that could tend
to confuse um in our game. Baseball analytics have become
a really big part of it. And uh, you know,
I've I've been into it for years and actually was
(30:33):
at the forefront of it with the Tampa Bay Raise,
Devil raising and the rays. And there's different reasons why
I think it's important, but I also believe that at
some point you gotta shut the doors, um and and
really minimize an amount of information that you carry. So
how much do you utilize or as any utilization of
analytics and your prep and prep for golfers going into
(30:54):
a tournament, or actually how much is used during the
course of a round because you do want to minimize
the noise and get back to the being unconsciously competent
to see the ball hit the ball your target kind
of a thing. Sure, probably very similar to baseball, and
that it's the last few, last five ten years, um.
An amazing amount of of of stat statistics are used
(31:15):
now in terms of preparation. A lot of guys higher
stats guys, and and it will say, you know, they'll
go through things like, um, hey, this whole last year
in this tournament played over par, and let's figure out why.
As the whole field as a field played it over par.
Let's figure out why and know when you approach this
hole during this week. You do not have to make
birdies to gain gain strokes on the field. If you
(31:37):
make four pars, you're gonna pick up you know, one
and a half shots on the field compared to last year.
So in terms of approach to certain holes, it makes
a huge difference. Um, I think is my personal opinion.
I think good caddies have all that information without having
the numbers, you know, um uh yeah, A good caddy
(31:57):
writes down everything about every shot when they hit it.
How far did we have, what was the wind doing,
what club did we hit, how far did it go? Um?
So you go back year after year and go, hey,
I know we hit hybrid off this t four times
last year, but we hit it in the rough three times.
We played the whole overpar um And if you hit driver,
it's carrying that bunker and leave me with a sandwich.
(32:18):
Even if you only hit the fairway once, it's a
huge advantage to do that. So, um, I think without
having a huge bank of information as a caddy, you
know what's gonna work, right. Um. So there's there's a
there's a type of caddy that we all we all
referred to as overkill guys who like you said Joe
a moment ago. You can have all the information in
(32:39):
the world, but if you're not confident about what that
one thing is to get him to hit the right shot,
all that information is completely useless. So you hear on
the air if a guy gets asked a question, Uh,
if a caddy gets asked a question, instead of saying
yes or no and then leading into the explanation, they
will talk for forty five seconds giving information without giving
an opinion. Um, sorry for Yeah, that's that's perfect that's
(33:07):
perfectly that is perfectly well, Joe. You also talked in
the book about how when the stakes got higher, basically
in the postseason, the more people wanted to get involved
with numbers and and and getting even more detailed. I'm wondering, John,
if you found that at whether Ryder Cup, President's Cup,
(33:27):
or especially the majors um where the atmosphere is a
little bit different and my experience as great players tend
to treat those moments exactly the same. Nothing changes. The
tendency human nature is to make it bigger. We need
more information. Uh So, giving an idea of what it's
like being at a major or some of the high
profile events, that's so true. I've I've watched more players
(33:48):
overwork Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, UM at a major and they
get to Thursday and they're just exhausted. They've got nothing
left in the tank because they've changed their their routine.
You know, if your routine is what you think is
best for you during um, you know, the riviera in
l A, Um, why is it? Why is it when
(34:09):
you get to Augusta you completely change that routine. You know,
if if you think the correct thing to do is
what you're doing at Augusta, then you should be doing
that every week. But when you you know, you change everything,
you're telling your body in your mind that this is bigger,
this is something else than what you normally do. UM.
So I think it's huge as a caddy to keep
(34:29):
keep him in the same routine. UM. The best guy
at that it was Tiger Tigers. I mean he prepared
the exact same way every single week. UM, and he
put as much you know, the shot seven iron he's
hitting at home and t shirts and his short he
gave the shorts he gave the same amount of attention
to as the seven iron he needs to hit at
(34:49):
Augusta to win the golf tournament. So when he gets
to that shot at Augusta, he's not nervous. It's the
same feeling. You know. Obviously it's bigger and he's more
amped up, but it's the same feeling. Um. I'll tell
you Hunter Mayhan. When I worked for Hunter, his first
President's Cup was in Montreal. Big time. When when you
make your first American team, it's huge. You know, you're
(35:10):
there with Tiger and Phil and all these guys that
have been your your heroes and your examples over the years.
And you know, Hunter had a really good team around him.
He had a sports psychologist and he had a punting coach,
and they were both there kind of as a reward
for for being with him the whole time. And um, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
it was like they wouldn't let him get five feet
(35:30):
away from him every They were right on top of
him the entire time. And I let it go for
a couple of days, and you know, I just once
he didn't play well in his first match on Thursday, Um,
and I sat down with those two guys. I go,
you guys are amazing. You do a great job. But
let's once you stand thirty feet back and when we
need you, if we need you, we'll call you in. Absolutely,
(35:52):
we'll call you in, you know, during the practice. But
but to be there every second, it's it's too much.
So they you have no idea what you're saying. You
were qualified to work in my world. I'm not qualified
to work in yours. The funniest thing about that was,
you know, Tiger notices everything. You think he's very insular
(36:12):
in his own world. But uh, that day when Hunter
started warm up on Friday, UM, Tiger was hitting balls,
you know, eight or nine stalls down and I hear,
what do you come here? So he calls me over
and I go over. I go what's up? He goes,
did you tell so and so to f Off? I said, yeah,
I said we need a little break. He goes, good,
(36:33):
call so Tiger. You know, he notices everything. It's incredible.
It sounds familiar on Joe this. I mean, listen, I
I'm really I'm so impressed by everything you're saying right now.
And and it dovetails perfectly into into our baseball world
right now, um and writing notes down as we're talking
right now, because everything we are we're touching on right now,
(36:55):
it really UM. It's very familiar to me. It's very familiar.
It's the kind of things that that's the stuff that
bothers me about us too, where there's so much uh
so many people wanted to create input right prior to
the game, and and you you don't need it right
prior to the game. I want them to give us
our work and then, like you said, stay thirty feet away.
(37:17):
You don't really need to constantly being reminding people about
something that some kind of work that you had done
hours ago. Of course I want to hear about it,
but I don't want to continually uh here about it.
So there's times less as well. One of my first
when I have my opening UM talk with the team
in UM in spring training, I'll say, listen, I want
(37:37):
us to play the same game on March fifteenth as
we do on June fifteenth, as we do in October
fift same game. I want the same kind of prep attitude.
Actually I want less. Like Tommy suggested, when you're when
you're doing it all year long, the body takes a
beating without even realizing a repetition constantly. It's difficult. It's
difficult to recreate physically that kind of movement precisely, unless
(37:59):
you do give yourself a little bit of a break.
I think diminishing me turns thats set in. So I've
always wanted my guys to space things out, but the
approach of the day has got to be the same.
So by the time you get to October, you're not
adding more weight to that moment. The weight should be
the equal amount of weight that you've played in April, June,
July and October as you're playing in the ALCS, NLCS
(38:20):
trying to get to the World Series. Yeah. Um, I
hate to keep going back to him, but he's the
example of how to do things, you know, the right
way so much. I asked Tiger, once you know, would
you rather, um, would you rather be completely prepared physically,
knowing you had every shot in your bag the way
you wanted it Thursday morning and maybe be a little
(38:42):
worn out, or have things that you're still working towards
and be completely fresh on Thursday. Before I finished the question,
he said, I want to be fresh on Thursday. I'll
figure the rest out. I'll put up a score and
I'll figure that out. We're gonna work together in some place.
I mean, if I ever get a manager's job again.
You're gonna be on that staff somehow. All this, if
(39:04):
you're talking about it, taught me knows because Tommy and
I talked about this all the time. You're describing such
parallel universes. It's it's really great to hear. Uh. It's
it's the great tear your thoughts validated by someone in
your position. But it's it's so similar, it's it's scary.
It actually is scary. I'm holding you to that. I'm
(39:24):
I'm gonna report this, and if you get another manager job,
I'm calling my producer right away, I says, I'm out.
I'm I'm going to work. What if we play the Giants?
So what if we played the Giants? Where's your right now?
I got no problem? Okay, yeah, but Joe, you broke
his heart. I'm sure that. Yeah, that was great to
(39:46):
two thousand two, wasn't two thousand to Let me tell
you a story about two thousand too. You know, I
was I was a huge Giants fan and had never
been there for as a fan for a World Series win,
and things were looking great. Five nothing um with our
ace rest urts on the mound, and I saw Dusty
walk up those steps, and I loved Dusty, but I
I saw Dusty walk up the steps and I think
(40:07):
all of Russ had given up. Was like a cheap
ground ball that got through and maybe a walk and
Dusty took him out, and I just I shook my
head and I put this is the time of VCRs.
I put a tape in left and listen to music
for two hours, driving around, came back, saw the scores
and I knew it. I'm glad I didn't watch that
(40:27):
because I knew it was coming. I guess something I
would have done exactly. Yeah, listen that that's that really
safe because the guy brought in Fernandez, right, Tommy's from
Hernan Fernande. Yeah, he only threw fastballs and Speace could
only hit a fastball, and that was that was a
perfect matchup for us. Yeah, I remember, in hindsight, I'm
kind of glad that the teams that wanted first were
(40:50):
they got their first UM just because they were more
likable teams than than you know, the Bonds era. But yeah,
that that one broke my heart at the time for sure. Well, John,
we do have a job for you right now. That's
to be part of a segment week all a reading
from the Book of Joe. We believe that every one
of these pages has a good story and interesting factoid,
(41:11):
or maybe it's just some life lessons involved in it.
So we ask our guests to pick a number at
their choosing from one to three hundred sixty eight, and
that's when we will have a reading from the Book
of Joe. So your turn. Uh. You know, I thought
of a couple of different ways to go about this,
but I gotta go with my favorite giant of all time,
(41:31):
Will Clark, and I'll go with twenty two. Start early
in the Will Clark, Right, Okay, this is getting into
uh Joe's background and uh, of course he's from Hazelton,
p A. And we talked about one of his idols,
Joe Nameth. Sports fueled him. Friends called him broad Street Joe,
(41:52):
the Hazelton quarterback version of Broadway Joe. Nameeth his favorite
football player, or Termite because he was small and feisty,
or Monsigor because of his clean language, a trait that,
to his parents chagrin, would not last. Madden was a
three sports standout at Halton High School. He went on
football recruiting trips to Gettysburg and Brown but as someone
(42:14):
who had never slept outside his own bed on the
East eleventh Street, he was uncomfortable at both places. He
decided to play football Lafayette College, about forty minute miles
from home, for coach Neil Putnam. In late summer of
seventy two, Joseph and Beanie drove their oldest son to
Lafayette and dropped him and his foot locker at Room
one twenty three of McKeen Hall. Only three days later,
(42:37):
just after freshman football practice had begun, Madden walked to
pay phone at the end of the hallway at his dorm.
He called his mother, Mom, I want to come home,
he told her, I'm going to become a plumber, just
like dad. He was homesick, and the competition he faced
for playing time was nothing like what he'd known in
little Hazelton. No, you are not coming home, and and
(42:59):
he said, no, I really want to. Joe told her,
I can't do this. I'm not good enough. After a
week or so, you're going to be fine, she said,
you're going to get into it and you're going to
enjoy yourself. You're staying there. Madden hung up. He stayed.
Of course, after a week or two. She was right,
he says, And boy, doesn't that ring true It almost
(43:20):
all of us, right, John. I mean, you get those
moments of doubt in your mind, and whether it's family
or friends, you have influencers. Um, we'll kind of get
pull you through those moments. And you're the better for
going through those tough times, no question. I think sometimes
people around you know what you're capable of more than
than you know. Um. And that sounds like one of
(43:41):
those points where Joe's mom knew that he could do
this and he just needed to stick it out past
this one point. So um, it's important, so important to
have those people that that believe in you more than
maybe you believe in yourself. I mean, it's a little
pay phone at the end of the hall by the bathroom,
those cell phones at that com you gotta put your
quarters in there. I probably called the reverse charges at
(44:01):
that time, right. And Mom's a tough pole. She's still
with us, should be ninety on January one, and beanies,
she's still tough. She still I walk in the room,
she gives me a hard time. I didn't show up
a cup for a couple of days, and she I
walked into she said, well, well, well, like, where have
you been? Uh? So, I'll never be and you'll never
(44:22):
stop giving me crap and I love her for it.
Oh that's tremendous. Tom. You mentioned your your plumbing emergency
on Christmas. If that hadn't worked out for Joe, he
might have been over there fixing your mirfe the next day.
I've been dialing up Joe. Hey, can you come over
at three fifteen in the morning. But Joe, I remember
you telling stories about your dad would do that all
the time, and those Hazelton winters, and would do it
(44:44):
with a smile on his face. That's a life lesson
right there. My mom would go with him a lot,
and if the guy the people couldn't pay, he would
just trade something off. I mean, that's just how he
was special. Yeah, and you went long enough to understand
that that's not what you wanted to do. Yeah, that's
I figured that out rather quickly. I didn't know at
nine sixteen. From the seven eighths, I had no clue. Still, dope, Hey, John,
(45:06):
give us some idea as we enter this new year here,
what's ahead for you is short term and long term.
Got some great stuff coming up this year. I'm starting
obviously in at Cappela in a couple of weeks, which
is uh actually about a week, which is always a
great place to start the year. UM. So I worked
those two in Hawaii, then I worked the American Express
in Palm Springs. UM. Then the things kind of switch
(45:27):
over to CBS at that point from NBC for a while,
so I'll have some time off after that. But boy,
we've got some women's US Opens at Pebble for the
first time Men's US Open at at l a country club,
which will be incredible. Never been played there before, or
if it has, it's been ages um Royal Liverpool for
the Open Championship, which is I love the course. It
(45:48):
probably doesn't get as many accolades as it should um,
But then you know, we got backed back in in
Spain and Italy the Ryder Cup and the Solheim Cup,
so I'm really Ryder Cups my favorite, uh favorite event
in any sport anywhere, And if you guys haven't been
to one, put it on your bucket list because it's like, uh,
it's like a college football game and happen to be
(46:09):
golf going around it. But it's just the the atmosphere
is just electric um from a team standpoint, So really
looking forward to all those. We accept the invitation. We're there,
you're in. Hey, I need I need a yardage guy.
Every week you can doe where's it at? Where's it at?
This year? It's in Italy in Rome. Oh my goodness
(46:33):
speaking Hey Paisano you speaking my language? Wow? Uh? Yeah,
this has been just so much fun. We knew you'd
you'd be able to kind of hone in on some
of the things we have in the book, but I
think Joe, both of us realized or didn't realize the
level of similarities, and it was really just so instructive
(46:54):
and entertaining and interesting to hear explain all that. So
I can't thank you enough. Guys. I've working golf. Baseball
is my all time love and on a I've never
been more nervous for a podcast or an interview than
than coming in with you guys, because it's baseball. You know.
What can I say? It's just it's always meant the
world to me, So it's been my honor. So thanks
(47:15):
for having me on. It's been a blast. Unknowingly, you
are a baseball guy. I just want you to know
that you truly are a baseball you get it. You totally,
you totally get it. You absolutely get it. Thank you
very much. That's a high high compliment. And happy New
Year to you, to you and your family, Buddy, thanks
for being guys to hope we run into you on
the road sometime. Just get in touching here. We will
please do we will trust me. Italy sounds good, real good, well, Joe,
(47:40):
what a pleasure that was. And spent some time with
John Wood, a guy who's I knew he was a
huge baseball fan by the way, because he told me
like I did as a kid. He played the game
Ethan Allen's All Star Baseball that was the baseball game
of the Cards and the Spinner. Uh So he's a
bona fide baseball guy and obviously a great observer of
(48:01):
human nature. Would you have to be as a caddie?
He really he is. He's he sees things, man. That's
what I talked about. The best coaches see see things. Um,
and I would I would have to believe that any guy,
any player that got to work with John Um, they'd
want him back. I mean, what would he just related
to us um just freely from a coaching sense to
me was outstanding, and um, I didn't realize he was
(48:25):
all of that, but he's all of that. Yeah, that
was a lot of fun. So happy New Year, Joe.
You got something to uh kind of start us off,
to take us out. Yeah. Yeah. This is from Henry
Rowlands from the nineteen eighties punk scene that you might
know Black Flag, because I think you're more and tune
to that than I was am. But I know John
Wood would enjoys into the replacements and the punk scene.
(48:47):
There you go. So I thought this was great. But
if you want a good body, work at it. If
you want to be as success, work at it. If
you want to be truly exceptional, be a touch and saint.
You need a little insanity to do great things. We've
talked about at it. It's gotta be a little bit
crazy to be great. And I read that. I thought
(49:07):
it was absolutely perfect. You got to take a chance.
And I always remember fortune favors the bolt, all those
thoughts all wrapped up into one going into the new year. Uh,
nineteen seventies six two point Oh, that's how I'm looking
at it. Awesome, Get outside your box. That's it, baby,
that's where, that's where the real, real living begins. Happy
New Year, Joe, see you next time. You two brother,
(49:28):
Thank you man. The Book of Joe podcast is a
production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My
Heart Radio. Hey there, welcome back to another episode of
the Book of Joe with Me, Tom Berducci and three
time Manager of the Year Joe Madden. Joe, I guess
it's time to say Happy New Year. It is. It's
(00:24):
getting right there. I had a great Christmas. I hope
you did also. Um, I don't know. I'm not much
of a New Year's celebrator like we had been in
the past, although I'm trying to make a commitment to
be a little bit more hedonistic than I've been lately.
So maybe we'll get out there and have a good
time in some in some method or way. But I
need to do that. For those math fans out there,
(00:45):
is a big year because three is called a hard
shot number, where you add up the numbers of the number,
which in this case is seven, and if that is
a divisor of the number, you have a harshot number
two eight nine times seven three. Why is that important
Because the word are shot means joy giver, So we're
(01:05):
in for a year of joy. Joe, get ready, I
just said that. He just here, let's go, not even
realizing that. Well, you know, our our book. The Book
of Joe is a book that sensibly it's about baseball,
but we dive into a lot of areas and that
that's why I'm excited about our guests today. You're saying,
why are you having a former caddy and golf analyst
(01:28):
on the Book of Joe podcast? Well, he's a great
listen Uh. Mark john Wood has been a caddy was
it caddy? For twenty four years and then he decides
to jump into the TV business and immediately becomes the
best golf analyst on TV. And I really mean that.
He's a pleasure to listen to. He's getting busy for
the Hawaii swing right now. Welcome John. Would I guess
(01:48):
I bury the lead? John? Also San Francisco Giants fan. Uh,
you know at this time you can bury that lead.
I'm totally fine with that with what's going on there.
But thanks for having me on, guys. This is a
true pleasure for me. Well, one of the things we've
been exploring, John, is the idea of glue guys in
baseball and bands, movies, any place that involves teamwork, and
(02:11):
a lot of people might be thinking, well, golf is
such an individual sport. What does a glue guy have
to do with golf, And that's why Joe and I
immediately thought about you and the job of a caddy.
So give us an idea of the dynamic. We know
that the guy holding the trophy, he's the one who
signs the scorecard, he gets the glory. But how important
(02:33):
is the caddy in terms of keeping things together either
on or off the course. Yeah, it's it's a great question,
and if there is a glue guy in golf, I
definitely would say it is the caddy. Um. Golf is
very unique in that during play, you're you're the only
guy that can give advice to your player. Is coach can't,
his sports psychologist can't, his trainer can't. Nobody else can
(02:55):
except for you. So you try and take all that
information that he's working on with his swing coach, with
his short game coach, his psychologist, his trainer, his wife.
You know is something going on? You know it was
the kid up all night in the hotel room and
he didn't get any sleep. So you're taking all that
information as a caddy, you know, sometimes noting it down,
sometimes just putting it in your in your brain, going okay,
(03:16):
I might need to talk about this at some point
today and trying to bring it all together for him,
but you want to, uh leave him out of it
as much as possible. He he doesn't need to know
any of the stuff you're talking about with his coach,
with his psychologist, anybody. But in case you need it,
you can bring it to him at certain key points
in the round. So that that's kind of how I
(03:38):
see a glue guys in terms of a caddy working
out there. Um, so it's a it's a great concept.
I love the concept of a glue guy. Those were
always my favorite players anyways. But um, you know, I'd say,
if there is in that team, uh, the caddy is
definitely the glue guy in golf. Does this include like
a pre tournament meeting that you might have, like the
practice round you're walking the course? Uh, do you go
(04:00):
through like almost like a prep, like a pre series
prep like a major leage team would do going into
a series. Yeah. I I never let uh when we
got to a course, I never wanted the player to
get on at the same time I did. I wanted
to be out there Monday or Tuesday before the practice round,
look over everything, figure out how my player whether it
(04:21):
be Matt Cootcher or Hunter Mayhan, Mark Calcabekia, how he
was gonna best play that course. And it's very different
for everybody. Um, you wanted to the biggest thing, Joe
is not wanting any surprises during the round. You're you
don't want your pro to have surprises. You want to
be prepared for everything. So um, like one day you'll
(04:42):
you'll play a hole and it's straight down wind and
you all you gotta do is hit a three iron
out there and you'll have wedge in your hand. You
knowing that the wind's gonna shift around, say after Friday.
You know, you look all that up during the week
and you want to make sure on Tuesday or Wednesday
you let them know, hey it's three iron today, but
by Saturday, when this wind completely turns around, it's driver
all day. Um. And here's why. So when he gets
(05:05):
to Saturday, he doesn't get out there and just grab
the three iron thinking okay, this is the play. We've
can make it all week it's worked. Um, you don't
want to have that discussion. Then you want him prepared
ahead of time. So yeah, a ton of homework um.
And and definitely, um, you know, you talk about how
to play the course, and caddies have their opinions, players
have their opinions, and it's usually the same page. I
(05:27):
would say, of the shot decisions, you're on the same page.
But those those five ten percent that you're not. Um,
You've got to have reasons to back up your decision.
And you can't just say it's a field. A player
can say, I feel like you can hit the shot,
and you're fine with it because they're the one hitting
the shot, they're the one making the swing. But as
(05:48):
a caddy, if you feel if you think he's hitting
the wrong shot, wrong shot, you've got to have reasons. Um.
You know, Matt, you hit this club two holes ago
the exact same direction. It carried one seventy three. You
only have to carry this one one seventy It's plenty
of club um or or or um. You know, things like, hey,
we played this part three two days ago. We were
(06:09):
on a different tea. You hit this club and this
is why you need two more here. Um. So as
you're constantly keeping that stuff in your brain um as
a caddy, and do you use it all? No, Because
like I said, usually you're on the same page. But um,
I always say, a good caddy has the answers to
ten questions that never get asked. And I always joke
(06:30):
with Michael Grell or Jordan's space Caddy because he gets
asked all those ten questions. Well, I was I was
wondering because as a bench coach. When I was a
bench coach, it's kind of like the same thing. It
sounds like you always have to be prepped for everything
here comes to game games in progress, things are happening,
and you have to either be able to suggest things
(06:51):
or just be a great sounding board one of the
other things. So when it came to giving suggestions, I
always took that very seriously in a sense because, um,
this is the guy that has to answer if it
doesn't work. So, I mean, when it comes to openly
making suggestions to your player, UM, this has to got
to be the residue of a great relationship that you built.
Also right, because sometimes you're gonna be wrong. I mean,
(07:11):
you're not gonna be right all the time, and you
have to be able to um absorb that, I guess
the best way to describe it. So when it comes
to the openness and your suggestions, it is there any
kind of trepidation at times, only because of how this
guy may react if it doesn't go right. That's a
that's such a good point. Um, if you have the
most important thing in a caddy player relationship is trust.
(07:34):
You might not have anything in common. You know, different politically, different, religiously, different,
the way you live your life. But if he trusts
you on the course and knows that you've done the
work to support your decisions, then he will believe you.
I mean, there are times when you've got to uh,
you know, dig deep and go Okay, I need three
or four reasons why I think this is the right shot.
(07:56):
I gotta keep going because he's not buying it yet.
But um, yeah, definitely. Um. A great example of that
is Tiger and Joe Locava. Joe Locava used to work
for Fred Couples for ages, now he works for Tiger
and Joe is is in my mind, one of the
best caddies of all time, no question about it. He's
so diligent, does all his work. But when you watch
(08:17):
or listen to to Tiger and Joe on the course,
when Tiger asked a question, Joe is very succinct and
very much yes, no, uh, Tiger, will this will this
club carry that bunker? Yes? No, Joe does not have
to go through those reasons, because Tiger knows he's already
done all the work. He's not guessing here, He's not
(08:39):
guessing that this club. He he knows Joe's gone and
done all that work. And to to have to go
through these arguments or to sit or discussions, it's not
necessary because he trusts Joe so much that he's done
the work. He knows Joe is not guessing. Um and
and other relationship you'll watch and Um, you do have
to go through everything. You have to explain why this
(08:59):
is the club, why you think this is right. Um.
And at the end of the day, it's the players decision,
and you have to leave it at that. If he
doesn't buy into what you're saying, then at the very end,
you've got to buy into what he's trying to do
and give him a percent confidence because these guys are
so good when they make mistakes. In my mind, it's
in decision. They're so good. When they are sure they've
(09:22):
got the right club, they're gonna make a good swing
or good enough swing. Tom And we've talked about this.
I E. Mike Borzello in the Game seven of the
World Series, calling the pitches to breaking balls to the
the hitter. There. Um, you have to be a really
good coach is not afraid to put his neck out
there based on what he believes in. There's some guys
that will do all the prep work in the world.
(09:42):
Then they'll they'll stay up all night to have all
this stuff in front of them. But do you have
the kind of cajone to make the suggestion in the
appropriate moment and not worry about it being wrong. To me,
that's the guy one on my staff. I don't want
the guy that again is ambivalent, is not sure, doesn't
want to hanging on his head if he's wrong. But
if you have that guy that's done the work and
is not afraid to make the question, that is truly
(10:05):
a valuable member of your team. Yeah, Joe, I would
add on to that. It's also the way the message
is delivered. You talked about Joe Lacava John being just
just so succinct and obviously a high level of trust.
My favorite caddy story on the amateur side in Alves
Roger Clement Roger Clements is playing at pebble beach in
the pro am and he's got it's not a full wedge,
(10:26):
and the caddy says, just choke down, flight it down,
you'll be good. And Roger and turns to and says,
what did you just say? You said, just choke up,
choked down on the club. He said, never use that word.
Don't even say that word to me. Careful. But I
always noticed that caddy's on TV. John, I mean, you
(10:47):
have to be a positive. I mean the last words
seemed to me always being it's the perfect club. Absolutely,
whatever it is, it's just reinforcement of yeah, you got it, yeah, absolutely.
You've got to be once the decision is made. You know,
you can't let him go into the shot um not
believing this is the right shot. And you watch his
(11:08):
body language, You watch his face when you ask him
a question about a shot, or you present something to him.
If he gives a long pause and he's kind of
staring out at the pin, you know, trying to noodle
through what you're telling him. You can tell when he's
not buying into it, and you have to keep going.
At that point, you can't just say I've made my
piece and watch him get over the shot. He doesn't
believe it yet, you know, which is it might as
(11:30):
well give him a driver from a hundred yards. If
he doesn't believe it, it's it's not the right shot.
So you are the catcher. You are the catcher. The
pitch selection matters, you know, it really comes down to it.
I mean, if you have indecision in your pitch selection,
it's gonna be a bad pitch of the time. It's
a perfect analogy. I was thinking about, you know, coming
on today, and and one of the things is is um.
You know, I figured, I feel like a bullpen session
(11:52):
before the round, before the game for a starting pitcher.
You're seeing what he has, what he worked, what's working,
what looks good, what doesn't. The same thing as a
caddier watching him warm up, going gosh, this this he's
not cutting the ball to day. It's just not going
left to right at all. So you're gonna have to
deal with that. Um. And then when you get out
into the course, obviously, the same thing is pitching. You
don't always bring what you had in the bullpen to
(12:13):
the mound. Same thing on the course. You might have
the greatest warm up in the world. You get to
the first tea. You hit a first bad tea shot
and his mind starts racing all of a sudden, So
you gotta pay attention early on what is he hitting
well today? You know, there's there's not always one right shot.
There's multiple ways to get a ball in the right
right spot. So if he's not hitting a high cut
(12:33):
good like you you know, well, like he normally does,
then you've got to work around it until he finds
that swing. You know, so, um, it's not one right shot.
You've got to figure out what he's doing well, what
he's feeling well about, and and really go with those
those swings until he figures out why the other one's
not working. Hey, John, we started out talking about how
the way a lot of people look at golf as
(12:54):
an individual sport, and I mentioned it is a team
sport in its own way, give us an idea and
in the caddy a lot of times is the glue guy.
The amount of people all that it takes for a
quote unquoted individual golfer, whether it's physios, coach, trainers, whatever
it might be. How many people is that caddy really
interacting with to bring out the best And this guy, sure,
(13:15):
it's it's amazing how big the teams have gotten UM
in the last ten fifteen years. Obviously, most guys have
a swing coach with them, not every week, but swing
coaches are probably out the most. UM. A lot of
guys have a separate short game coach who work on
you know, chipping and pitching and bunker shots and putting. UM.
They'll have a sports psychologist, they will have UM. Obviously,
(13:36):
the agents around you don't usually have to deal with
the agent too much unless it's a timing issue. If
you if you feel like he's your players getting tired
and spread a little thin, then you have to have
that conversation with the agent and say, hey, cut these
you know, cut these outings. The week of the tournament,
you're you're wearing this guy out. UM. So those are
the three main are are sports psychologist, UM, swing coach
(13:59):
and short game. But then you also need to go
to his trainer. UM. And if his trainer comes to
tell you, hey, his warm up was okay today, but
his back is tight or um, you know his you know,
his left wrist has has been bothering him. You need
to know that stuff so you don't call for certain
shots that he's not going to be able to hit Um.
He might not tell you that, but um, you have
(14:21):
to know that information. And like I said, even the
life you know, it's it's invaluable to have a good
relationship with with his wife or his girlfriend, knowing, Hey,
he didn't get any sleep last night, the baby was
up all night, or um, he didn't get a practice
a whole lot at home last week, we had some
stuff going on. Um, just to get all that in
your brain going into a week, so you can plan out,
(14:43):
um the week and you're in your head um as
to how to get him most prepared and freshest for
Thursday morning. The parallels are incredible. You're talking about you know,
talking about what we do every day. It's amazing. Is
there's so many parallels, and I want to explore one
more after we take a quick break. I always wondered,
how do you become a caddy Like you want to
(15:04):
become an umpire, you go to umpire school. I'm not
aware of any caddy schools, but apparently it involves the
literary world. John's gonna answer that when we get back. Hey,
welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast. Our guest
(15:26):
is John Wood. PGA Tour caddy for twenty four years
and now the best golf analysts in the business with
NBC and Golf Channel. John I t s this getting
into the world of caddying. I don't know what the
the quote unquote regular path is for someone who does
get involved in p g A caddying. But for you,
give us an idea of how it came about for you,
(15:46):
a guy who did play college golf. Well, I used
to say, how do you become a caddy? My My
line used to be, you fail at everything else in
life and then you end up as a caddy. But
I was I had played collegiate golf at cal Um,
didn't graduate from there. I never finished. But I was
kind of out of the golf world. I was playing
in here and there, and I knew some golfers. A
lot of my buddies who you know, went to college
(16:07):
and played Division one golf. Um, but I was managing
a bookstore in Sacramento. I was kind of playing golf
here and there, but certainly not thinking of a professional
career or anything. UM. I knew a player named Kevin
Sutherland very well from Sacramento. Knew his coach, Don Bacham
very well. Um. This was Kevin's second year on tour
and we were just out hitting balls one day and
(16:28):
he asked if I'd be interested in coming out and
trying it. Um. You know, I thought about it for
a week or two, and UM, I really I thought, well,
what else am I gonna have this chance? If I
fail at it, if I'm terrible with it, so what
I'll come back and and you know, get another job
or or or go in a different direction. Um. So
I just totally fell into it, fell in love with it. Um.
(16:50):
But even then I thought I'll do it for a
year or two and then get back to the real world.
And um, you know, I was almost thirty years ago
at this point, So I kind of fell into it.
It wasn't anything planned. Um. Today I think on tour
there there used to be you would get your tour
card and then you would go out and find a
(17:10):
tour caddy and and learned that he knew the courses,
he would lead you around. Um, and then he would
have to learn your personality. You're as a player, your personality,
what worked best for you. It's completely flipped now. Uh,
players are bringing out you know, brothers, college teammates, guys
who know their personalities very well and need to learn
(17:30):
how to caddy. So um, it's a it's a different
definitely a different dynamic the way it's turned into now.
But I think this way is better because I think
sometimes the the personalities and how to talk to your player,
when to give him a pat on the back and
when to give him a kick in the ass, um
is way more important than the xs and os the numbers.
(17:52):
So um, it's it's really changed over the years. So guys,
almost everybody now brings out a college teammate or a brother,
you know, Joe, he got me thinking. They're about you
talking in our in our book about the five levels
of being a perfect when you start as a caddy
no experience, there's a point we talked about this in
the book where you begin to believe I belong here.
(18:13):
How long was that? If you want learning curve for you,
John to understand that, you know what, I am pretty
good at this. You know it took it took a while,
because you know, playing high level amateur golf Division one golf,
you think you know the game and you think you
know golf, but when you get to that level, it
is so much more information and so much quicker. You know, guys.
(18:35):
Everybody thinks guys play slowly out there, and I agree
they do. But the amount of information they are going
through compared to what a good amateur going is going
through is mind boggling. If that's what I try to
do as an announcer. Sometimes it's really, you know, go through,
here's everything they're really thinking about. This isn't one two
nine iron, It's not that you've got so much more
(18:57):
information to go through to make sure you're hitting the
right shot. And they do it relatively quickly, most of them. So,
But about my I, UM, I I started out the
first couple of tournaments with Kevin was okay, but it
was very much a yes man, you know, because I
I didn't want to get in his way. I wanted him,
I wanted to learn, and once I had a solid opinion,
you know, and knew what he wanted, then I would
(19:18):
start interjecting a little bit. So it was probably a
good ten twelve tournaments in um. Once you give a
couple of really good pieces of advice that work out,
UM that you start feeling okay, I get it, you know,
I get it. And Joe, you said it, you know
earlier on. You can't be afraid to be wrong, and
you can't be out there trying to play Kate and
(19:39):
agree with this guy all the time because he's not
gonna be right all the time, no way. But he's
paying you for your opinion and you have to you
have to be able to give it no matter what
the situation and not be afraid of it. You can't
be afraid of losing your job. Um. I can tell
you know, watching and listening to guys, I can tell
when guys are just trying to keep their job and
(19:59):
when they're seriously cattying. Um. And it's a it's a
it's a vast difference in terms of of those two
approaches to catting. Absolutely, tell me what you think now
what you've heard. I want guys that are gonna give
me all of themselves. You just said it too about
the Triple A to the major league experience, where the
vast amount of information are so different. The minor leagues
(20:21):
primarily are to get your mechanics in order when it
comes down to the game planning. Of course, management things
like that are there, but they might become more important
as you get the Triple A at maybe the latter
part of double A. But when you get to the
big leagues. When I got to the major leagues as
a coach, was completely different. I thought I knew, but
I didn't. Um still ninety feet still sixty ft six inches.
(20:42):
Defensives are relatively the same, but the game couldnot have
been more different, and you have to learn that. You
have to learn. I had to learn as a coach,
just like you're suggesting, how do I help my guys?
What do I need? What level? What level do I
need to think at? What do I need to know
in order to be a contributing member of this coaching staff?
Because I wasn't when you're when you begin, and you're
saying it as a caddy. When I first began as
(21:03):
a major league coach, it was hard for me to contribute.
I didn't have I didn't know the league, I didn't
know the other players. I didn't know how this whole
thing worked. And then Tommy intimated there. I sat down
one night, and I don't even it just came to
me the five levels of being a professional. Level one
being happy to be here, Level to survival. I like this,
I want to stay here. Level three I belong to
(21:23):
I can do this. Your seminal moment occurs where all
of a sudden, it's like, wow, this makes sense. Now
I can contribute. Level four would be I want to
make as much money as I possibly can. That would
be as a player, because as a coach, God, you
just you're just at the mercy of some general manager.
And I was at the mercy. But then level five,
all I wanted to was win. And I think it's
easy for a caregory coach to fall into that category.
(21:44):
All I want to do is win. So you have
to go through those stages, I think in order to
really contribute in your situation to the player or for me,
the players that I was working with from the minor
league to the major league level. So it's really like
we just already talked about it. The unique Uh, it's
it's so similar what you do and what we've done,
what I've done in the minor leagues, and even your path.
(22:06):
I mean, I'm listening to you talk, it's incredibly similar. Yeah.
I mean once once Tom invited me Beyond I I
sat on the couch and read almost the whole book yesterday,
and I was amazed at the similarities. In in um,
you know, the preparation and the approach um. The biggest
difference I saw from from amateur golf high amateur golf.
Two pros like you said, get your fundamentals in order
(22:28):
when you get on the PGA Tour. If you get
to that level, you've got enough game in every part
of your game to succeed if you get there. But
when you get there, it's it's completely about playing the game.
How do I outthink this guy? How tough am I
in these these high pressure situations? Do I back off?
Do I? You know? So? I think for a player
(22:48):
and a caddy, it's much more about forgetting all those fundamentals.
They're here. You've got to accept that they're here and
believe that they're here and play the game. They become
embedded after a period of time. I mean, you have to,
whether it's batting practice, side piece on the map, taking
your groundballs, pregame. And I said, I'm I'm a now
an avid golfer. I've I've come back after thirty years
(23:09):
of not playing, and I'm a freak right now. Brother.
I mean, and when I go out to play, I
really got to get away from my mechanics in the
days that I do, I play the best. So it's
it's just it's the same everywhere. Man, we get caught
up in our own heads, and that comes to my
son asked me to ask you a question. Joey's spectacular, uh,
And he asked me to ask you. When you guys
get in their own head, and we all get in
(23:31):
our own heads, what do you do to get him
out of it? Is there anything you do specifically? That's
a great question, and it depends on how they're in
their head. Are they angry in their head? Are they
I'm lost, I don't know what my swing is doing? Um?
And are they just nervous? Are they just completely wrapped
up in nerves in this big situation? So you take
it different ways. If they're angry, you give them a
(23:52):
couple of holes to work through it. If they don't,
then you gotta give them some tough love, because at
that point, you know, the the nice hey you're you're great,
you're a great player, Come on, that doesn't work. They
don't want to hear that. You got to get in
their face and go, hey, quit it all right, you know,
knock it off. You're better than this. Let's go come
on and make one good swing or back in this
if they're nervous, um, and it's a big situation coming
(24:14):
down the stretch for the first time or at a
major and they're trying to win a huge tournament. Um,
I like, I think those times in between the shots
are just as important as the information you give during
the shot. Get his mind out of golf. Hey, uh,
you know with Couch it was you know, his two boys,
Cameron and and Carson are amazing athletes, So let's talk
(24:36):
about what they're doing. Hey, how Cam play in his
tournament last week? What's Carson doing? You know? Um? Other
times it's um, you know, did you see this movie?
So and so did you? I'm reading this book, and
here's what it's about. All of a sudden, they've got
they're out of their head even as for thirty seconds
and when they get to the ball, it's fresh. You know,
they didn't spend three minutes walking with their head down
(24:58):
slowly grinding on. This is so important. What if I
win this tournament or gosh, I'm not hitting the shot, Well,
what am I doing? Get him out of that, completely
out of it for for three minutes as they're walking
each of the ball. It's a fresh start. So there
there's there's different things, different approaches, and you gotta watch
their body language and to figure out what's best. It's
the silence between the notes to create the music. That's
(25:20):
what you just described, you know, And that's uh you're
and again Tom described you as the best analysts. Everything
you just told me makes you one of the better
coaches you've ever met and also one of the better analysts.
I mean I partly because I guess I really agree
with everything you just said. I think it's right on.
I appreciate that. And I say best analysts too, because
I know and you've you've heard it throughout this this
conversation here. You know John is well prepared to be
(25:42):
an analyst on TV, not just because of what he
did as a caddy, but his work habits. Because I
know in this business, preparation is, if not everything, it's
pretty darn close to it. And John, you know, going
into a telecasts, you're you are like a caddy, prepared
for any eventuality and have to respond in real time
in that moment, and not only respond, but be concise.
(26:04):
And to me, that's why I don't know if you
feel this, John, it's one of the great challenges to
distill all that information that you have. And for me
it's some if I'm a field reporter, get it in
between pitches, which is not a lot of time, and
for you, between shots and saying the right thing, a
lot of information distilled in a quick period of time
that's digestible and more than anything interesting. Uh, it sounds
(26:26):
like you'd like that challenge. You You do it so well.
I love it. And what happens typically is you know
you've got the producer in your ear, you've got the
telecast in your ear, and you know they're coming to you,
but you're not exactly sure. When you're not exactly sure
when this guy is gonna hit the shot, it's not
like it's you know, you have fifteen seconds every time.
So when I know they're coming to me and I'm
(26:47):
watching the guy's pre shot, are they still talking and
they picked the club? How man? I have more time
to extemporize on on what what's going on into this shot.
But when when you know they're coming to you for something,
you have a thirty second answer, a fifteen second answer,
and a seventh second answer. Um, you know, obviously if
you've got thirty seconds, you can talk a lot about
what's going into the shot, what they're talking about, the decisions,
(27:09):
what to avoid, what they're trying to do. If it
cuts down a little bit, you can knock some of
that out. And you know, if it's if it's the
seven seconds and you have got to get down to
the kernel. And and instead of saying one nine iron,
which I think is boring, I want to say, here's
this single most important thing about this decision and this shot,
(27:29):
and I want to get it in quickly. So you
kind of you're right along with the telecast and go okay,
I've got thirty noe, now I've got fifteen. Now I
want to have seven. Here's what it is. So yeah,
I love that challenge. Um and um, it's a it's
it's similar to caddying. You know, you don't want to
give your player a ton of information. He doesn't need
it all. You want to tell him the one thing
(27:50):
that's gonna make him believe in the shot. So um,
you know I try to do the same thing, uh,
you know, talking on the air as I did to
my player. Very cool. Well, Joe, you know, John is
a guy who travels with his guitar. So we have
to talk about music and especially rock and roll, and
we will right after a quick break. Welcome back to
(28:20):
the Book of Joe podcast with John Wood and John
I mentioned you travel with your guitar. You recorded some
music an album in fact. Um we talk here, Joe
and I about sometimes when you want to get your
head right, you jump in your car, you turn up
the stereo, you put Bruce on, uh, and just enjoy
the ride. For you what gets you right? Oh, I
(28:45):
can't express how big music has been in my life
for every reason. Um, It's been every as a as
a you know, the typical teenager. Um, there were certain
bands that that changed change my world. There's no question
about it. They changed my life and they continue to
do so to this day. Um, it's so important to
me in every way. UM. When the band R. E. M.
(29:07):
Quit being a band, I got to know those guys
fairly well over the years, and I wrote a letter
to them when they when they finished at talking about
how amazing it was that they provided the soundtrack to
so much in my life. You know, when I hear
certain songs, I'm immediately transported back to a person or
a place or a time in my life. Um, you know,
(29:27):
and music to me has always given me. If I'm
in a good mood, it can make me in a
better mood. It can take me higher, you know. Um
if I'm in a you know, a sad mood, Um,
it's um it's almost like a friend saying I understand
what you're going through here. I mean, you're gonna get
through it. Don't worry about it. It's it's okay to
be feeling like this. And and UM, that to me
(29:50):
is it's I listen to music so much and play music.
It's uh, other than than you know, finding little league
games and minor league games on the road. First thing
I do is look at all right, who's in town
this week? And I go see any shows. So it's uh,
it's invaluable in my life. Losing my religion, brother, yes, absolutely,
absolutely one of my favorite. Can I just go back
(30:11):
for one second, Tammy, because you kind of you kind
of touched on last segment, John. Uh. The overabundance of
information too much, a glut of information that could tend
to confuse um in our game. Baseball analytics have become
a really big part of it. And uh, you know,
I've I've been into it for years and actually was
(30:33):
at the forefront of it with the Tampa Bay Raise,
Devil raising and the rays. And there's different reasons why
I think it's important, but I also believe that at
some point you gotta shut the doors, um and and
really minimize an amount of information that you carry. So
how much do you utilize or as any utilization of
analytics and your prep and prep for golfers going into
(30:54):
a tournament, or actually how much is used during the
course of a round because you do want to minimize
the noise and get back to the being unconsciously competent
to see the ball hit the ball your target kind
of a thing. Sure, probably very similar to baseball, and
that it's the last few, last five ten years, um.
An amazing amount of of of stat statistics are used
(31:15):
now in terms of preparation. A lot of guys higher
stats guys, and and it will say, you know, they'll
go through things like, um, hey, this whole last year
in this tournament played over par, and let's figure out why.
As the whole field as a field played it over par.
Let's figure out why and know when you approach this
hole during this week. You do not have to make
birdies to gain gain strokes on the field. If you
(31:37):
make four pars, you're gonna pick up you know, one
and a half shots on the field compared to last year.
So in terms of approach to certain holes, it makes
a huge difference. Um, I think is my personal opinion.
I think good caddies have all that information without having
the numbers, you know, um uh yeah, A good caddy
(31:57):
writes down everything about every shot when they hit it.
How far did we have, what was the wind doing,
what club did we hit, how far did it go? Um?
So you go back year after year and go, hey,
I know we hit hybrid off this t four times
last year, but we hit it in the rough three times.
We played the whole overpar um And if you hit driver,
it's carrying that bunker and leave me with a sandwich.
(32:18):
Even if you only hit the fairway once, it's a
huge advantage to do that. So, um, I think without
having a huge bank of information as a caddy, you
know what's gonna work, right. Um. So there's there's a
there's a type of caddy that we all we all
referred to as overkill guys who like you said Joe
a moment ago. You can have all the information in
(32:39):
the world, but if you're not confident about what that
one thing is to get him to hit the right shot,
all that information is completely useless. So you hear on
the air if a guy gets asked a question, Uh,
if a caddy gets asked a question, instead of saying
yes or no and then leading into the explanation, they
will talk for forty five seconds giving information without giving
an opinion. Um, sorry for Yeah, that's that's perfect that's
(33:07):
perfectly that is perfectly well, Joe. You also talked in
the book about how when the stakes got higher, basically
in the postseason, the more people wanted to get involved
with numbers and and and getting even more detailed. I'm wondering, John,
if you found that at whether Ryder Cup, President's Cup,
(33:27):
or especially the majors um where the atmosphere is a
little bit different and my experience as great players tend
to treat those moments exactly the same. Nothing changes. The
tendency human nature is to make it bigger. We need
more information. Uh So, giving an idea of what it's
like being at a major or some of the high
profile events, that's so true. I've I've watched more players
(33:48):
overwork Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, UM at a major and they
get to Thursday and they're just exhausted. They've got nothing
left in the tank because they've changed their their routine.
You know, if your routine is what you think is
best for you during um, you know, the riviera in
l A, Um, why is it? Why is it when
(34:09):
you get to Augusta you completely change that routine. You know,
if if you think the correct thing to do is
what you're doing at Augusta, then you should be doing
that every week. But when you you know, you change everything,
you're telling your body in your mind that this is bigger,
this is something else than what you normally do. UM.
So I think it's huge as a caddy to keep
(34:29):
keep him in the same routine. UM. The best guy
at that it was Tiger Tigers. I mean he prepared
the exact same way every single week. UM, and he
put as much you know, the shot seven iron he's
hitting at home and t shirts and his short he
gave the shorts he gave the same amount of attention
to as the seven iron he needs to hit at
(34:49):
Augusta to win the golf tournament. So when he gets
to that shot at Augusta, he's not nervous. It's the
same feeling. You know. Obviously it's bigger and he's more
amped up, but it's the same feeling. Um. I'll tell
you Hunter Mayhan. When I worked for Hunter, his first
President's Cup was in Montreal. Big time. When when you
make your first American team, it's huge. You know, you're
(35:10):
there with Tiger and Phil and all these guys that
have been your your heroes and your examples over the years.
And you know, Hunter had a really good team around him.
He had a sports psychologist and he had a punting coach,
and they were both there kind of as a reward
for for being with him the whole time. And um, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
it was like they wouldn't let him get five feet
(35:30):
away from him every They were right on top of
him the entire time. And I let it go for
a couple of days, and you know, I just once
he didn't play well in his first match on Thursday, Um,
and I sat down with those two guys. I go,
you guys are amazing. You do a great job. But
let's once you stand thirty feet back and when we
need you, if we need you, we'll call you in. Absolutely,
(35:52):
we'll call you in, you know, during the practice. But
but to be there every second, it's it's too much.
So they you have no idea what you're saying. You
were qualified to work in my world. I'm not qualified
to work in yours. The funniest thing about that was,
you know, Tiger notices everything. You think he's very insular
(36:12):
in his own world. But uh, that day when Hunter
started warm up on Friday, UM, Tiger was hitting balls,
you know, eight or nine stalls down and I hear,
what do you come here? So he calls me over
and I go over. I go what's up? He goes,
did you tell so and so to f Off? I said, yeah,
I said we need a little break. He goes, good,
(36:33):
call so Tiger. You know, he notices everything. It's incredible.
It sounds familiar on Joe this. I mean, listen, I
I'm really I'm so impressed by everything you're saying right now.
And and it dovetails perfectly into into our baseball world
right now, um and writing notes down as we're talking
right now, because everything we are we're touching on right now,
(36:55):
it really UM. It's very familiar to me. It's very familiar.
It's the kind of things that that's the stuff that
bothers me about us too, where there's so much uh
so many people wanted to create input right prior to
the game, and and you you don't need it right
prior to the game. I want them to give us
our work and then, like you said, stay thirty feet away.
(37:17):
You don't really need to constantly being reminding people about
something that some kind of work that you had done
hours ago. Of course I want to hear about it,
but I don't want to continually uh here about it.
So there's times less as well. One of my first
when I have my opening UM talk with the team
in UM in spring training, I'll say, listen, I want
(37:37):
us to play the same game on March fifteenth as
we do on June fifteenth, as we do in October
fift same game. I want the same kind of prep attitude.
Actually I want less. Like Tommy suggested, when you're when
you're doing it all year long, the body takes a
beating without even realizing a repetition constantly. It's difficult. It's
difficult to recreate physically that kind of movement precisely, unless
(37:59):
you do give yourself a little bit of a break.
I think diminishing me turns thats set in. So I've
always wanted my guys to space things out, but the
approach of the day has got to be the same.
So by the time you get to October, you're not
adding more weight to that moment. The weight should be
the equal amount of weight that you've played in April, June,
July and October as you're playing in the ALCS, NLCS
(38:20):
trying to get to the World Series. Yeah. Um, I
hate to keep going back to him, but he's the
example of how to do things, you know, the right
way so much. I asked Tiger, once you know, would
you rather, um, would you rather be completely prepared physically,
knowing you had every shot in your bag the way
you wanted it Thursday morning and maybe be a little
(38:42):
worn out, or have things that you're still working towards
and be completely fresh on Thursday. Before I finished the question,
he said, I want to be fresh on Thursday. I'll
figure the rest out. I'll put up a score and
I'll figure that out. We're gonna work together in some place.
I mean, if I ever get a manager's job again.
You're gonna be on that staff somehow. All this, if
(39:04):
you're talking about it, taught me knows because Tommy and
I talked about this all the time. You're describing such
parallel universes. It's it's really great to hear. Uh. It's
it's the great tear your thoughts validated by someone in
your position. But it's it's so similar, it's it's scary.
It actually is scary. I'm holding you to that. I'm
(39:24):
I'm gonna report this, and if you get another manager job,
I'm calling my producer right away, I says, I'm out.
I'm I'm going to work. What if we play the Giants?
So what if we played the Giants? Where's your right now?
I got no problem? Okay, yeah, but Joe, you broke
his heart. I'm sure that. Yeah, that was great to
(39:46):
two thousand two, wasn't two thousand to Let me tell
you a story about two thousand too. You know, I
was I was a huge Giants fan and had never
been there for as a fan for a World Series win,
and things were looking great. Five nothing um with our
ace rest urts on the mound, and I saw Dusty
walk up those steps, and I loved Dusty, but I
I saw Dusty walk up the steps and I think
(40:07):
all of Russ had given up. Was like a cheap
ground ball that got through and maybe a walk and
Dusty took him out, and I just I shook my
head and I put this is the time of VCRs.
I put a tape in left and listen to music
for two hours, driving around, came back, saw the scores
and I knew it. I'm glad I didn't watch that
(40:27):
because I knew it was coming. I guess something I
would have done exactly. Yeah, listen that that's that really
safe because the guy brought in Fernandez, right, Tommy's from
Hernan Fernande. Yeah, he only threw fastballs and Speace could
only hit a fastball, and that was that was a
perfect matchup for us. Yeah, I remember, in hindsight, I'm
kind of glad that the teams that wanted first were
(40:50):
they got their first UM just because they were more
likable teams than than you know, the Bonds era. But yeah,
that that one broke my heart at the time for sure. Well, John,
we do have a job for you right now. That's
to be part of a segment week all a reading
from the Book of Joe. We believe that every one
of these pages has a good story and interesting factoid,
(41:11):
or maybe it's just some life lessons involved in it.
So we ask our guests to pick a number at
their choosing from one to three hundred sixty eight, and
that's when we will have a reading from the Book
of Joe. So your turn. Uh. You know, I thought
of a couple of different ways to go about this,
but I gotta go with my favorite giant of all time,
(41:31):
Will Clark, and I'll go with twenty two. Start early
in the Will Clark, Right, Okay, this is getting into
uh Joe's background and uh, of course he's from Hazelton,
p A. And we talked about one of his idols,
Joe Nameth. Sports fueled him. Friends called him broad Street Joe,
(41:52):
the Hazelton quarterback version of Broadway Joe. Nameeth his favorite
football player, or Termite because he was small and feisty,
or Monsigor because of his clean language, a trait that,
to his parents chagrin, would not last. Madden was a
three sports standout at Halton High School. He went on
football recruiting trips to Gettysburg and Brown but as someone
(42:14):
who had never slept outside his own bed on the
East eleventh Street, he was uncomfortable at both places. He
decided to play football Lafayette College, about forty minute miles
from home, for coach Neil Putnam. In late summer of
seventy two, Joseph and Beanie drove their oldest son to
Lafayette and dropped him and his foot locker at Room
one twenty three of McKeen Hall. Only three days later,
(42:37):
just after freshman football practice had begun, Madden walked to
pay phone at the end of the hallway at his dorm.
He called his mother, Mom, I want to come home,
he told her, I'm going to become a plumber, just
like dad. He was homesick, and the competition he faced
for playing time was nothing like what he'd known in
little Hazelton. No, you are not coming home, and and
(42:59):
he said, no, I really want to. Joe told her,
I can't do this. I'm not good enough. After a
week or so, you're going to be fine, she said,
you're going to get into it and you're going to
enjoy yourself. You're staying there. Madden hung up. He stayed.
Of course, after a week or two. She was right,
he says, And boy, doesn't that ring true It almost
(43:20):
all of us, right, John. I mean, you get those
moments of doubt in your mind, and whether it's family
or friends, you have influencers. Um, we'll kind of get
pull you through those moments. And you're the better for
going through those tough times, no question. I think sometimes
people around you know what you're capable of more than
than you know. Um. And that sounds like one of
(43:41):
those points where Joe's mom knew that he could do
this and he just needed to stick it out past
this one point. So um, it's important, so important to
have those people that that believe in you more than
maybe you believe in yourself. I mean, it's a little
pay phone at the end of the hall by the bathroom,
those cell phones at that com you gotta put your
quarters in there. I probably called the reverse charges at
(44:01):
that time, right. And Mom's a tough pole. She's still
with us, should be ninety on January one, and beanies,
she's still tough. She still I walk in the room,
she gives me a hard time. I didn't show up
a cup for a couple of days, and she I
walked into she said, well, well, well, like, where have
you been? Uh? So, I'll never be and you'll never
(44:22):
stop giving me crap and I love her for it.
Oh that's tremendous. Tom. You mentioned your your plumbing emergency
on Christmas. If that hadn't worked out for Joe, he
might have been over there fixing your mirfe the next day.
I've been dialing up Joe. Hey, can you come over
at three fifteen in the morning. But Joe, I remember
you telling stories about your dad would do that all
the time, and those Hazelton winters, and would do it
(44:44):
with a smile on his face. That's a life lesson
right there. My mom would go with him a lot,
and if the guy the people couldn't pay, he would
just trade something off. I mean, that's just how he
was special. Yeah, and you went long enough to understand
that that's not what you wanted to do. Yeah, that's
I figured that out rather quickly. I didn't know at
nine sixteen. From the seven eighths, I had no clue. Still, dope, Hey, John,
(45:06):
give us some idea as we enter this new year here,
what's ahead for you is short term and long term.
Got some great stuff coming up this year. I'm starting
obviously in at Cappela in a couple of weeks, which
is uh actually about a week, which is always a
great place to start the year. UM. So I worked
those two in Hawaii, then I worked the American Express
in Palm Springs. UM. Then the things kind of switch
(45:27):
over to CBS at that point from NBC for a while,
so I'll have some time off after that. But boy,
we've got some women's US Opens at Pebble for the
first time Men's US Open at at l a country club,
which will be incredible. Never been played there before, or
if it has, it's been ages um Royal Liverpool for
the Open Championship, which is I love the course. It
(45:48):
probably doesn't get as many accolades as it should um,
But then you know, we got backed back in in
Spain and Italy the Ryder Cup and the Solheim Cup,
so I'm really Ryder Cups my favorite, uh favorite event
in any sport anywhere, And if you guys haven't been
to one, put it on your bucket list because it's like, uh,
it's like a college football game and happen to be
(46:09):
golf going around it. But it's just the the atmosphere
is just electric um from a team standpoint, So really
looking forward to all those. We accept the invitation. We're there,
you're in. Hey, I need I need a yardage guy.
Every week you can doe where's it at? Where's it at?
This year? It's in Italy in Rome. Oh my goodness
(46:33):
speaking Hey Paisano you speaking my language? Wow? Uh? Yeah,
this has been just so much fun. We knew you'd
you'd be able to kind of hone in on some
of the things we have in the book, but I
think Joe, both of us realized or didn't realize the
level of similarities, and it was really just so instructive
(46:54):
and entertaining and interesting to hear explain all that. So
I can't thank you enough. Guys. I've working golf. Baseball
is my all time love and on a I've never
been more nervous for a podcast or an interview than
than coming in with you guys, because it's baseball. You know.
What can I say? It's just it's always meant the
world to me, So it's been my honor. So thanks
(47:15):
for having me on. It's been a blast. Unknowingly, you
are a baseball guy. I just want you to know
that you truly are a baseball you get it. You totally,
you totally get it. You absolutely get it. Thank you
very much. That's a high high compliment. And happy New
Year to you, to you and your family, Buddy, thanks
for being guys to hope we run into you on
the road sometime. Just get in touching here. We will
please do we will trust me. Italy sounds good, real good, well, Joe,
(47:40):
what a pleasure that was. And spent some time with
John Wood, a guy who's I knew he was a
huge baseball fan by the way, because he told me
like I did as a kid. He played the game
Ethan Allen's All Star Baseball that was the baseball game
of the Cards and the Spinner. Uh So he's a
bona fide baseball guy and obviously a great observer of
(48:01):
human nature. Would you have to be as a caddie?
He really he is. He's he sees things, man. That's
what I talked about. The best coaches see see things. Um,
and I would I would have to believe that any guy,
any player that got to work with John Um, they'd
want him back. I mean, what would he just related
to us um just freely from a coaching sense to
me was outstanding, and um, I didn't realize he was
(48:25):
all of that, but he's all of that. Yeah, that
was a lot of fun. So happy New Year, Joe.
You got something to uh kind of start us off,
to take us out. Yeah. Yeah. This is from Henry
Rowlands from the nineteen eighties punk scene that you might
know Black Flag, because I think you're more and tune
to that than I was am. But I know John
Wood would enjoys into the replacements and the punk scene.
(48:47):
There you go. So I thought this was great. But
if you want a good body, work at it. If
you want to be as success, work at it. If
you want to be truly exceptional, be a touch and saint.
You need a little insanity to do great things. We've
talked about at it. It's gotta be a little bit
crazy to be great. And I read that. I thought
(49:07):
it was absolutely perfect. You got to take a chance.
And I always remember fortune favors the bolt, all those
thoughts all wrapped up into one going into the new year. Uh,
nineteen seventies six two point Oh, that's how I'm looking
at it. Awesome, Get outside your box. That's it, baby,
that's where, that's where the real, real living begins. Happy
New Year, Joe, see you next time. You two brother,
(49:28):
Thank you man. The Book of Joe podcast is a
production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my
heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.