April 9, 2025 • 50 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci prepare for The Masters with a visit from NBC Golf Analyst John Wood. Watching baseball work its way through the 'torpedo' bat, John helps us compare golf's head first dive into technology assisting player performance. We explore how the game has changed through equipment and course construction. Has golf experienced the same increase with injuries that we've seen in baseball? Moving back to the diamond, which team is the 'fastest' team in MLB right now? Tom and Joe wrap up with their predictions for The Masters.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Perry.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome back to the latest episode of the Book of
Joe Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe,
I always love asking you about your golf game. You
got any updates for me, anything new equipment wise, game wise?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Just that I shanked a couple yesterday, first time in
a couple of years. I had no idea what I
did wrong, but we did come in second place. Overall.
I played well. No the yeah, the equipment's come was
that the GT one is that the new titleist driver.
I'm getting it with a shorter shaft right from the factory.
I found that by going from a conventional length shaft
(00:51):
on my driver to something shorter, I've been able to
hit the sweet spot a lot more often and hit farther.
So that's the big thing right there. And the other
part is just come on, man, stop the shanks.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I love that you got us right to equipment because
we have a special guest today, John Wood, caddy on
the PGA Tour for a couple of decades and now
one of the best golf analysts on TV. You see
him on NBC. John welcome to the show. I mean,
we've talked a lot on this show about torpedo bats
in the next couple of weeks, the last couple of weeks,
(01:23):
and I thought it really does dovetail with the golf world.
So let me start asking you about innovations in the
golf world. We know, as consumers were bombarded with this
all the time. Where is the state of equipment in
terms of innovations on the PGA tour level.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
It is so fast developing, it's it's unbelievable. It seems
like every week somebody else has a new driver or
a new shaft. And the thing about golf is it's
it's a great investment for those companies because they get
to sell what those pros use. It's not same in
wooden baseball bats, and there's not a lot of guys
going out, So I don't think the innovation has necessarily
(02:01):
been there. But now that they've opened up the can
of worms with increasing bat speed and moving the sweet spot,
who knows where it heads next. The thing about golf is,
I think golf would be in a much better position
today had they taken the same tact as Major League
Baseball and said no aluminum bats had had golf back
(02:23):
in the you know eighties, said no aluminum drivers, It's
got to be wood. I don't think we'd have all
these discussions about, you know, distance ruining the game.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
That's a great point. I'm gonna get to the Masters
and how that has sort of changed. Of course, the
Master's coming up this weekend. I want John's take on that.
But is there something you mentioned? All the new equipment,
how tailored is it? Because when we heard the stories
about a guy like Anthony Volpi who went to the
torpedo bat because he was hitting the baseball not exactly
(02:54):
the traditional barrel of a wood bat, so they moved
the barrel literally down a little bit closer to his hands.
It seems to fit him. It's not for everybody. I
get that, you know, I know it's highly scientific on
the tour. Is it getting even more scientific? Oh?
Speaker 4 (03:10):
They leave nothing to chance anymore, absolutely nothing. Every every
time some new a new driver comes out or new
equipment comes out, they will get on a launch monitor
and you know, everything is made for them right there.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
All the trailers are on site.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
So the club reps really know their players games well
and they know if a new shaft comes out, whether
it's a possibility or not. They knew when they put
a new head out, if it's supposed to have, you know,
put more spin on the ball, take spin off, they
know whether it will fit. But when they are looking
into new equipment, I mean, they will sit on a
(03:45):
launch monitor until they have it exactly right where they
want it, where they don't have to make adjustments to
their swing, hit the shot they want. And it's just
it is remarkable, you know. I think when we were
growing up playing, you found a perconmon head that looked
good to you and you put a stiff shaft in it,
or an extra stiff and the way you win it.
Now there's just hunt. There's so many thousands of combinations
(04:08):
of how you build it, of the head of the
shaft that you know players at that elite level, nothing
has left a chance.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
John, you're describing analytics how it pertains to equipment in golf,
and my question is I played with Blade Brown during
the Doss part a little bit on that Monday, and
I really thought I recognize an increased analytics component to
just strategy and playing golf. How much has analytics infiltrateed
(04:39):
the entire scope of the game of golf, beyond equipment.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
A ton a ton.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I think some guys actually lean on it too much
and they lose their feel for the game and they
forget to play. A lot of guys will bring launch
monitors out there now during practice rounds. Every shot they hit,
they're looking at you know, swing angles and spin rates
and start lines and club face. And I think guys,
(05:06):
some guys are using it too much where you know,
you forget how to play the game. You're playing golf
swing and not golf. But in terms of the analytics,
in terms of how to play, it's really changed the game.
You know, guys used to always lay up on par
fives if they couldn't reach and wanted a full sandwich.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Now analytics and statistics tells.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Them, don't lay up, get it as close to the
green as you can, and no matter where it is,
bunker rough, it doesn't matter. The closer you are, the
better chance you're going to have a making a birdy period.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
So it's brought a new.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Aggression to the game, and I think it's taken away
some players consistency.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
But if you want to win, you almost.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Have to play that way out there because somebody's going
to be doing it and playing well.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Three point field goals, home runs, go for the strikeout.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Exactly the same thing, exactly the same thing.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
That does sound familiar, doesn't it, Joe. As John was
talking about that, I'm thinking about all these guys in
the bullpen with their laptop behind them checking the spin rates,
you know, not knowing a good pitch until they actually
read the data of it. So, John, my question is
if I if I'm a young guy, I'm starting out
on the tour. We think of golf as an individual sport.
But as you know, these guys all have teams, right
(06:18):
and especially as you work your way up the ladder
and you have more resources and money, you can have
a deeper team. Do I need besides I don't know
swing coach, nutritionists. Do I need an analytics guy as
part of my team?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
In my opinion, no, but a lot of guys lean
on it.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I think good caddies have been analytics guys for their
guys for years. Look, last year we did this year,
it didn't work out. Let's try a new tact on
this hole this year. Because it didn't work in the
last couple of years. You might not have had the minute,
you know, the minutia, the details, but you knew, you
knew the guy tends to miss wright on this hole.
(06:58):
You knew the guy tends to hit, you know, come
up short on this hole.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So I think you can have one.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
I think that a lot of the information is so obvious,
but it gives them something to lean on and if
they believe in it, as you guys know, you got
to go with it.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah. I mean, the dissimilarities are so scarily similar regarding
what you're talking about, and you're almost describing the bench coach.
Who's this person on the side that could be able
to analyze this independent of a computer or whatever. I
just find it really interesting. And the other thing is like, Okay,
it's just like no different than our game in baseball.
(07:35):
If there was so all this information and it's distributable
to every team out there, why are more teams winning
at a high level or high rate. I mean, there's
a couple, obviously golfers that are dominating the sport, and
I guess that's kind of always been the case. I
guess if you break it down among the guys that
are really like a shuffler of an example, and Shoffley
(07:55):
and all these guys that are really at the top
of the leader's board on a consistent basis, mclroy whatever,
justin Thomas, how many of these guys really do you
think rely heavily on this or is it more of
the newer generation coming forward, the guys that are used
to using their phones and really relying on social media
and information to that regard, Is there like a disparate
(08:18):
group like this, this somewhat the old school group that
really are relatively young, it's compared to even like the
Blade Browns of the world just coming up? Is could
you see an absolute difference or is it kind of
a blurred line right now they're both doing it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
It's kind of a blurred line.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
I would say the best players I think are the
best for a lot of reasons, but one is they
know when to use it when not to use it.
Scotti Scheffer, he mentioned he probably uses less technology than anybody.
I mean he rarely you see him on the range
looking at a shot tracker, seeing what every ball does.
He watches the ballflight, what did that feel like? He
(08:56):
can always go back to that, and he does check
it every once in a while. But he's probably I
think he uses it less than anyone. And I think
the established players you just mentioned, justin Thomas, Scottie Scheffler
or Rory, they know when to use it when to
put it away. And that is so huge because I
think a lot of the young guys, as I said,
they lean on it too much, and all the answers
(09:17):
are on this launch monitor instead of playing the game.
And as you guys know, it's just a completely different thing.
Having a good golf swing, a perfect golf swing that's
technically perfect is great, but it's not going to let
you shoot, you know, sixty six if you don't know
how to play golf.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
They're two totally different things.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Otani equals Scheffler, Scheffler equals Altani. That's what you just
said to me right there. Yeah, that's just what you
said to me.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Yeah, I rarely, you know, when Tiger was out here,
I rarely saw Tiger with a launch monitor.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Rarely.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
I talked to him at the you know that cool
father son at the end of the year, and I
talked to him. He said he hates when his son
Charlie gets on the launch monitor because he falls in
love with numbers and he forgets what the ball's doing.
So I think the I think the greats of the
game know when to put it away more than the
really really good players.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Let's say, John, let's explore the training side of this,
because we've seen this, and I think it's analogous again
in the pitching world, the need for speed, if you will, right,
and we know that when we grew up, if you
had a good arm, you were just blessed with a
good arm. Now we know that you can actually train
for velocity and add velocity, and from what I hear,
(10:26):
the same thing is happening in golf. Everything is about speed,
and we have guys training for more and more speed.
Speed equals distance, distance equals lower scores. But isn't there
or is there an injury risk, because certainly there is
one in baseball with pitching, the harder you throw, the
more torque there is on your elbow, and the more
injuries it creates. Are we seeing the same in golf.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
No question about it, no question about it.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Like you said, the peak of golf right now I
think is better than it's ever been because of those
physical limitations that have kind of been removed at this point.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
All always had to kind of protect yourself in golf.
You hear Jack talk about.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
He never swung more than eighty percent of the driver
because the sweet spot was so small, and those persim
and heads. Now the driver heads are so big. It's
a much, much much bigger sweet spot. It curves less,
so they're allowed and encouraged to swing harder, which they
never were before. You know, when Jack was playing back
with persimon heads, let's say his normal best drive went
(11:30):
two ninety. Well, if he missed it a little bit,
that was down to two fifty. You know, it was
a bit and curving a lot. Now they can miss
by much more. It's it doesn't change the shot that much.
It's so difficult to curve these drivers and these golf
balls compared to the old ones, that they're going at
it as hard as they can. And you're right in
(11:52):
terms of swing. Coaches and trainers now are working together.
Here's what I'm trying to get him do in the swing.
What parts of his body do you need to work
on to get stronger or more flexible. They're working hand
in hand, but to your point, it's such a much
more violent move and you're seeing a lot more injuries
in everything, not just back but everything. You know, you've
(12:16):
already heard about Jack Nicholas or Tom Watson withdrawing from
a golf tournament because of an injury.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Just didn't happen. Now it's happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Well and totally. I've heard stories about the wrists especially
is at risk with these faster golf swings. Are you
finding that to be true?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
No question.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Jordan Speeth is just coming back from that. You know,
Xander had the oblique injury, which in any twisting sport,
baseball golf is probably the hardest to recover from because
you never quite trust it. Scotty Scheffler had that freak
injury with his hand, had nothing to do with golf,
But yeah, risks, wrists and back. It's just it's so
much more stress on it than it used to be,
(12:57):
like exactly like you described with baseball pitchers.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's so similar. It's incredible. Having talked about you're talking
about the physical side of this whole thing right now.
The thing that really intrigues me is the again, the
mental side, like for instance, course management and you as
a caddie for so many years, would you consider yourself
like the in charge of this team. Regarding course management,
(13:20):
I'm sure, like you know a Tiger Woods that said,
I've heard him speak about it. But how much of
this course management component of playing the game, the actual
mental side of the game, trying to beat your component,
BEATNM with your competitive nature, with your brain, with better execution.
To me, it would seem like you, guys, as a caddy,
almost like you're like the coach on the field right there.
(13:43):
I don't know how often you're willing to give advice
or whatever. That would have to depend on the relationship
between the two of you, how comfortable you are to
say something in a moment. But anyway, course management, how
much of that is your responsibility and how much does
the player himself take charge of that himself.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
I think you're right it varies between between the teams.
But caddies are more involved now than they've ever been.
They have more information, They work harder on the you know,
pre round without their player looking at the golf course
trying to figure out, Okay, what is the best strategy
for my player, because it's not going to be across
the board the same way. Players are so different in
(14:21):
their strength that you have to find out and figure
out let's say I'm working for Matt Kucher, how does
Matt Coucher best best play this golf course? And I
have to think about wind directions, whole locations because it
changes every day. But you know, to your point, I
always felt it was kind of like calling pitches. There's
never one right pitch. And as a catcher or a
(14:44):
bench coach, if you're calling pitches and you call something
and the pitcher isn't not feeling that, there's always something else.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
To go to.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So I always thought, as calling pitches, here's what I
think we should throw right here. But if you're not
feeling that one, we can come up with another option.
So that's kind of how I always looked at it.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
John let me circle to torpedo bats because it was
a perfect storm. It was a weekend at Yankee Stadium.
The Brewers came in with nine pitchers on the il.
They have the least velocity of four seamers of any staff,
so they were depleted. They left, you know, ninety mile
an hour fastballs over the middle of the plate, and
the Yankees in that ballpark hammered them. But of course
the focus was on the bats. It was hysteria I
(15:26):
think the bats are an interesting innovation, but we still
have a major League batting average that's actually down from
last April. It's still in the two thirties. There's not
widespread acceptance to the bat. I think will help some people.
I'm wondering if there has been something in golf, John
that you saw as something that was a game changer.
Was something in the shafts, the club faces, the ball itself,
(15:48):
where there was near universal acceptance that this is the
way forward.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I would say the last time that happened was when
the prov One came out, you know, back in early
two thousands. That was such a revolutionary golf ball, going
from the era of ballata with the wound rubber bands
and softcore to all of a sudden the ball that
would spend almost as much when you needed it to,
but went way farther. That's the last time I think
(16:18):
there was kind of a universal acceptance of that you
have to do this, you can't compete without doing this.
But like I said, new shafts come out all the time.
Iron heads, there's x amount you can.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Do with an ironhead.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
You know, there's there's different looks, but it's not going
to change the playability of it. Where the most of
the technology comes in golf is is drivers, and that's
where most of the money goes. They spend all their
money developing that, trying to find a way around the rules,
not to cheat the rules. But okay, they've written it
like this, but how can we maybe skirt that a
little bit or get closer to that line?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And there's there's no there's no limit to it, no
matter what kind of you know. They're talking about this
ball roll back that I think will happen, but guys
will adjust. They just always find a way, and I
don't think it's going to change scores at all.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
By the way, have you seen any lead tape out
there recently?
Speaker 3 (17:13):
It's funny.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Last time I had I always had lead tape in
the bag, but I think it was a harding park
President's Cup and the greens were really slow and Tiger,
Tiger of all people, what have you got.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Any lead tape? Because he couldn't couldn't get his much
as the hole.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
So yeah, now they all have wrenches and weights to
move around, so not much lead tape anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Hey, listen, we're gonna take a quick break here, and
I promise you we're gonna talk to John about the Masters,
and I'm going to talk to him about his first
love as well, which is directly related to baseball. We'll
do that right after this on the Book of Joe.
(17:58):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know that John is a huge San Francisco Giants fan.
I mean the commentating stuff just gets in the way
of him watching Giants games. His first love is San
Francisco Giants. You gotta be feeling pretty good about your team, John.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I'm thrilled that. I am absolutely thrilled with this start.
They're a fun team to watch. They look like they
are together, which is always a fun thing to watch
early on, and you know, you have a couple walkoffs
early in the year, you almost feel like you're never
out of.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
A ball game.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
So it's a fun team that Busters put together. We're
surprising some people.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I think, yeah, I like what I'm seeing so far too.
I think even Vera Lander really hasn't kicked it in
gear yet. However, his presence alone is going to make
a difference within that pitching staff. The team on the
feels kind of interesting. Also, I'm a big Wilmer florist guy.
I mean, this guy could absolutely devastate left handed pitching.
Saw that back with the Mets and then I saw
(18:54):
with the Giants. I mean, this guy, to me has
been an under radar, under the radar kind of performer
for a while and he's really helping get off to
this wonderful start web pitch. This is a throwback pitcher.
They've always had this throwback gene or chip within them,
and it goes back to boaching the boys and Brian Sabian.
There's something about I mean, not something obviously, it really
(19:15):
appeals to my sensibilities. So I'm kind of a closet
fan also, And you know Bomel is the manager Bobby
and our friends and was very interesting always to work
against him. And I didn't know a Buster Posey Harley
at all. Big admirer of his abilities, though. But there's
a I think they've created a balance, I guess is
what I'm tap dancing around. There's a balance between old
(19:38):
and new there that I think is really well done.
It seems to fit seamlessly. I think there's these players
there know that they have the ability to be themselves
like we were just talking earlier. If you need some information,
whether it's a analytically inclined or just something good old fashioned,
a swing coach or a pitching coach, whatever, I think
(20:00):
they got all of that stuff lined up pretty well,
and I think that's the right way do things. I'm
curious to see how this season plays offer them because
I like the way they built it.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I think a lot of from the fan base, I
know a lot of us felt like they went too
far into analytics in the last few years and kind
of lost you know, who they are as a franchise,
you know, homegrown talent and playing baseball the right way.
And it feels like with Buster moving in, he's kind
of leading it back to that.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yes, we still have analytics, I say, week, but you know.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
It's just it's almost like I was talking about in golf,
you forget how to play the game when you just
sit there and look at the monitors all the time.
And I think it's probably similar in baseball. These guys,
these guys are playing baseball again, which is fun.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, it's a great point, John. You look around the game,
and I do think the pendulum is swinging back a
little bit a correction if you will, where you see
like Buster Posey, Craig Breslo and Boston, Chris Young in Texas,
Chris Gets in Chicago, you know, giving the keys to
the car back into the hands of some players. Not
to say it's totally old school, but as you mentioned
the Blend, so and talking about Blend, let's talk about
(21:05):
Augusta and what wins there. The equipment, John does seem
to make the course play differently. I know years and
years ago they tried to tiger proof the place. But
for me, just looking at the scores in the last
seven years, you've got to shoot at least ten under.
Ten to twenty under is a winning score. And in
the first forty years of the Masters, it took forty
(21:26):
tournaments to have seven times where the score was at
least ten under. So scores do seem to be going lower.
Is the course playing differently now because of the equipment.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Very much so, and they're protecting it differently. They're protecting
the score differently. Listen, they lengthen holes, and they need
to because the ball goes so far now. But distance
is not of great defense for a golf course anymore.
Because all these guys hit it so far, not only
their driver. But you know, when I'm growing up, Jack
Nicholas used to hit a seven iron one fifty. Now
(21:58):
these guys hit it one to eighty one eighty five.
So it's not just the driver, it's everything combined. So
they used to, you know, be able to control scores
with distance, with rough Now they do it with firm,
fast greens and hopefully wind. Those are the two things
that make it scoring tough. If it is windless and
(22:20):
fairly soft conditions, I don't care what's going on. Somebody's
going to shoot eighteen under par so excuse me. Augusta
has that unique ability to you know, they've got the
subair on all the greens so they can it can
rain the day before they flip that switch and it
all the moisture gets sucked out, and all of a sudden,
it's firm and fast again. So they've gone defending the
(22:41):
golf course very very differently. If you watch you know,
old highlights of the Masters in the sixties and seventies,
you know Arnie's just taking you know, wrist break with
his putts and hitting them.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Hard because you had to.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Now everything is just so fast and so scary around
the greens that that's how that's how they're defending it.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
So it's different.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
They're hitting shorter clubs in, but it's still it's a
golf course where the difference between hitting a shot one
thirty two, which you're trying to and one thirty four,
which is dead is that's how.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
That's how a razor's edge.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
They can put that golf course on when it's firm
and fast, and I think after yesterday at rain, but
the rest of the week's supposed to be dry, so
I expect one of those fun years where the ball
is gonna be bouncing.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I mean, that's that's like every golf course, right, I mean,
I've been playing at Florida has been so darned windy.
Oh my god, it's been so darned windy. And I
just joined the Saint Pete Country Club, Saint Petersburgh Country Club,
and it's a redone. Gary Coke did the redo on
this place, and oh nice. Yeah, it's it's really cool, man.
It's an old school layout nineteen twenty four, twenty five
(23:49):
something like that. Raymond Floyd won a tournament there in
the sixties, I believe. But anyway, since they put the
new greens in. That's exactly what Gary told us from
the very first day that it's gonna be a little
bit hard and they're gonna run. They're gonna run away
from you. And you look at all the undulation and
it's not playing yet because it's a little bit slow
to putt. It's like these greens they don't hold when
(24:12):
you want to when you want them the hole and
they and they run when you don't want him to run.
They're just like they're schizophrenic. But he did a wonderful job.
It's really exciting. But win, my god, it's treacherous anywhere
right it is. And then the hard green probably two
of the most difficult things I've attempted to master as
a real, real novice at this game.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
You're you're not alone.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
That's what really in stalls the elite that those are
the two things that can stall the elite player.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Indecision when you get that wind swirling around. Yes, it's
you can't get over the ball with one hundred percent commitment.
If you can't do that, most likely you're not going
to make your best swing. But and then firm greens
where you're kind of decide. All right, am I going
to try and hit this hard, put it up in
the air with a lot of spin and stop it?
Or am I going to take it a little lower,
take some spin off, skip it back, let it release
(24:58):
a little bit. So a lot more options.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So john eighteen years ago, Zach Johnson was the equivalent
of a guy throwing about eighty seven touch and field
guy right, and he wins the Masters at one over par.
I'm not sure what his average length was, but I
mean he couldn't carry probably some of the holes at
Bethpage Black. So is that type of player. Certainly that
(25:24):
score been drummed out of the game because you just
you just have to in order to compete, you know,
have almost three hundred yards of carry.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it hasn't completely been
drummed out, but they're few and far between. I'm thinking
of a guy like Russell Henley, who's been playing some
of the best golf of his career the last couple
of years.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
He's not a long guy at all.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
He's very much into a Greg Maddox mold where he's
just gonna fool you with speed and controlling his golf ball.
And be a great putter, but there are fewer and
far between.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
There used to be quite a few of them, but
not anymore.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
That's to get out here now, even to be a
a major amateur or you know, a really good college player.
These guys are growing up with trainers with the best equipment,
and everybody when they get out here, hits it a
long way now. So there's a few hanging on to
that old school. But I get I expected to be
fewer and fewer as we go along.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, you're looking at you just described. How about the
other day, Tommy, I got in a phone conversation with
dal Maxwell for former Cardinals shortstop right he played. I
don't know how many years he played in the at
least twelve, thirteen, fourteen. He would even make like a
Triple A team these days. I mean he would have
absolutely no chance. I thinking Nelly Fox. More recently, my buddy,
my man, David Fletcher, Mark Bilandrew with the Orioles. I mean,
(26:44):
these guys would have like.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Zero Hoddy Harrol.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, I'm gone.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I know these guys had steady jobs too.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, exactly, I'm going a little bit farther back. I
understand that. But the discrepancy between then and now Billy Ripkin,
Kyle couldn't even keep him on the team. I mean,
the discrepancy is incredible, the size of the athlete, the
strength of the athlete, and so forth and so on,
And I could argue we're talking about like the ability
to play the game with the Maxwell of Fox, of Bolander,
(27:12):
of Fletcher, their ability to play the game was, Uh,
it's like superstar ability, It's like five data kappus ability,
it's like graduate school ability. But physically they didn't have
what the the current modern game requires. So that that
it bothered me a little bit that I'm talking to
and I call mister Maxwell, God, what a great conversation.
(27:33):
I got so lucky. But it's so different, and you
can't argue that at all, there's no argument. But I
would love to put their brains or their no how
our abilities, their sensibilities in regards to playing the game
into the minds or brains of some of these kids today.
They're just physical specimens outstanding, but their their gamesmanship, their
(27:54):
ability to to work the game, see the game, compete
the game, and in advance of situations. These guys really
had an edge with that.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Yeah, it's it seems like what's being asked of baseball
players now compared to what used to be asked of
certain positions. It was fine if your shortstop hit two
ten because he wanted to be a good defender. He
was fining for second baseman, you know, had no pop whatsoever,
as I an get a bunt down and run a
little bit and play good defense. Now every position seems
like they want the big guy at that position.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
There's not room for the role players as much anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I used to look at batting orders when I was
doing this thing, and I'd always look at the number
seven hitter, and I always thought, you know, from seven,
eight to nine, it would normally fall off the cliff
a little bit. It'd be there'd be some outs in
in an American Leagueland if this was when I was
with the Angels back in the day, but all of
a sudden were playing Cleveland and David Justice is hitting seven,
I thought, here we go, I mean, and then you
(28:49):
go back to the Baltimore Orioles in the night really
in the nineties, and Hoyles was hitting ninth for the
Orioles and he had twenty plus armers. The whole lineup
had twenty plus armers. I know this is more recent,
we think, but the advent began back then, and part
of that was a steroidal area era also where guys
just where beefy and the ball went farther, et cetera.
(29:10):
But it's just it's just it's been going on for
a bit. I think it just we're just recognizing it
more recently.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, John, I want you to look ahead now of
the Masters, and you know, I guess you know. You
look at Scheffler, you look at McElroy, right, Scheffler maybe
not as locked in as he was last year. But
if I gave you the choice between the field or
the Scheffler McElroy combo, would you take the top two
or you have to go to the field because the
competition is just it's so deep in today's golf world.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Last year I would have said, I'll take Sciotti Scheffler,
but this year I would take the field. I just
think I feel like this year, yeah, Rory has played great,
but there's such a monkey on his back at Augusta.
The pressure on him on Thursday is going to be
so enormous, knowing he's playing well. But I think I
think there's eight to ten guys that I would call
(30:01):
pretty close to even money this year.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
I have a feeling about JT.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
I think he's playing great golf, hasn't won yet this year,
but that guy plays so good with a chip on
his shoulder, and I think he's got that little Losing
that lead at the vus Bar, I think really chapped
him a little bit, and I expect him to have
a really good week.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
But you know, you look at Scheffler.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
McElroy, Morikawa, Rom Ludvig, Obert, Shoftley. There's so many guys
that I wouldn't be surprised to see win this week
that I don't have a big favorite like Scheffler's been
the last couple of years.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
That's pretty good to hear. I would agree with you,
and I think, you know, one of the things that
I don't like hearing during a golf broadcast is when
announcers like to say this guy's only one like one
or two major, hasn't won a major. Man, it is
so hard to win a golf tournament. I mean, I
just look at these fields and you just rattled off John.
You know almost a dozen guys who I have no
(30:58):
problem seeing wearing that green jacket on Sunday. I do
think the depth of the field is is better than ever.
I'm not sure if you would agree with that, but
it just seems to me looking from Afar that the
like legitimate guys contenders to win a major. It's deeper
than it was twenty years ago.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
No question about it, no question about it. I mean,
you look at the winners this year.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Any given week, you know, anybody can win a golf tournament.
That's how good all these guys are. In the separation
between the best and the you know, the average is
not that great. Things click one week, you guys gonna
have a chance to win. But I think, yeah, in
terms of the elite players post Tiger era, I think
we're in a point where we've got twelve to fifteen
(31:43):
guys every week and even more in the majors. When
you know you get everybody back together live with the
live players back, I think that is more true than ever.
That's just like I said, there's to me, there's not
a favorite this week, there's about ten to twelve of them.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I love the idea of them guys getting back together.
I know, y'all, I would imagine you all do. He
had all those names back in these in these even
weekly events, not just the majors. I mean, like D
Chambeau right now. To me, he typifies what the sport
needs actually be. I mean, Shuffler is a great representation.
Don't get me wrong. I love the guys in Metronome,
(32:20):
but D Chambeau and his and his personality I think
really plays. I mean that the guy works, He's got,
you know, mad talent kind of a thing, but the
way he demonstrates his emotion and how he plays with
the fans, it's it's reminiscent of a past year, I think,
and I really enjoy it. This guy started out several
years ago not being that guy viewed in a different way,
(32:43):
but all of a sudden, he's reinvented himself. And I
give him a lot of credit because I listened to him,
I watch him, and I like it. He's enjoying it
out there. He's having fun with it out there, and
I think that's why it performs so well in big moments,
because he takes himself seriously, but not too seriously.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
I think, Yeah, I think reinvention is the perfect word.
When he came out, he was very different person than
he is now, and he looks like he's having fun.
Like you said, he's interacting with the fans. He doesn't
freak out if somebody happens to cough. He's it's just
he's fun to watch. I wasn't his biggest fan when
he came out, to be honest with you, I kind
(33:19):
of felt like, so all these guys in the last
one hundred and fifty years didn't know how to play golf,
but you're you're reinventing it. But he really has reinvented
quite a few things, and he's fun to watch. I
love the tournaments and we get to watch him and
he's he's back competing against these guys.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Well, John, before we let you go with all our
guests here, we like to have what we call a
reading from the Book of Joe. You get to pick
a number between one and three hundred and sixty five.
That is the number of pages in the Book of Joe.
And we're absolutely sure that whatever number you pick, you
will land on something that's interesting. So it's your choice here.
(33:56):
You can go anywhere between one and three sixty five.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Let's go with one oh seven.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Like the fact that you went triple digits, by the way.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yeah, I think last time I took twenty two, which
was Will Clark's number, it was my favorite.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
But just coming up coming up with something a little
later this one.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, this is interesting. I'm glad you picked this one
because it's a Joe always likes to call it the struggle,
right that everybody sees the glory and the championships and
the winning, but a lot of times the happiness, especially
looking back on it, comes from the struggle to get there.
And this was a story Joe tells about Mark McLamore.
(34:36):
Remember Mac Fluff you called him, by the way, why'd
you call him fluff?
Speaker 5 (34:40):
Joe?
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Hair do? He had really this really magnificent fro. He
was seventeen eighteen, coming out of San Diego High School.
One of the nicest guys I've ever met in the game.
He came up to Salem, Oregon, and he actually had
like chicken pox or something like that on top of whatever.
But anyway, he had a magnificent season. We're still really
(35:02):
good friends. But anyway, it was all because of this
fluffy hairdoo that he had.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Okay, so Fluff is seventeen years old and there's probably
stories like this on the corn Ferry and other tours
John where he's miserable, he's homestick, he's a kid away
from home for the first time, and he goes into
Joe's office and he wants to go home, he wants
to quit, and Joe says to him, what you're missing
(35:28):
right now, buddy, no longer exists. You're missing a memory.
What you're missing is no longer there. Your friends are
not the same, your friends are not there, The places
are not going to have the same allure to you.
It's just not the same, and you're going to go
back to something entirely different, and you'll be upset with
the fact that you've done it. What your mind is
(35:48):
doing is not giving you good information. It may have
been true before, but it's not true today. I want
you to bear down on what we are doing and
really get reinvested into just playing here and know that
whatever we miss when we're seventeen, being away from home
for the first time, no longer exists at home. Mark
mcklamore mounded up having it. I don't know, at least
(36:10):
a ten year career in the major leagues, made a
lot of money.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, more than that. Listen, that happened actually in a
hotel room because my office was the hotel. That was
so early in the year, and he came in and
really desponded. And that's a pretty good recap right there.
The conversation, everything about it is pretty much right on
the money. And I just knew this kid was going
to be really really good. On top of that, like
really this effervescent personality smiled so easily, was he was
(36:38):
infectious about so many different things, ran well, had a
great arm, switch hitter everything, and he strong bodied everything
going for him. So that one moment right there that
caused me on an annual basis, especially in an a
ball when it came to be August first, I would
get the players together and have many team meetings, but
I used to on August first, and it was setting
(36:59):
down in the bleachers at our ballpark, and I talked
to him about those specifics in regards to whatever you're
missing right now no longer exists because y'all can't wait
to get home if we have one more month to play.
You miss your buddies, you miss your spots, whatever it
might be. I'm here to tell you that no longer
exists that way, because I was trying to keep them
motivated for the rest of the season and some were
(37:20):
going to go to instructional League in Arizona beginning September
fifteenth through Halloween. So I think that's just a natural
I mean, happened to me as a you know, I
wanted to come home after one week at Lafayette because
it was kind of tough. It was a cultural difference.
Told my mom I wanted to be a plumber like
my dad, and she said, no, you're not, No, you're not.
You're staying right there. So all that stuff I got,
(37:41):
I could see, like was yesterday, and he had a
wonderful major league career and he's been a broadcaster with
the Rangers, et cetera. Anyway, we stay in touch. But
that's a really good recap Tommy.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
How about you, John, did you have a Mark macklamore
moment when you started cattying where you're like, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
You know, I love that I lucked out and picked
that page because that was one of my favorite stories
in the whole book. It's a life lesson much bigger
than baseball or golf. It's it's life, but Yeah, you
definitely had those moments in caddying more than I do
now because now it's more a lot more consistent week
in week out. But you'd have those stretches where maybe
(38:17):
your player wasn't playing great or you weren't getting along,
and you'd start.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
And thinking, Eh, is there something else I can get
back to?
Speaker 4 (38:24):
And then you know, you just think, no, there's nothing
as good as this, and you know it's you figure
it out quickly. But yeah, I think everybody in life
in general, much less sports, has those moments. But it's
such a great lesson to learn that that's not there anymore,
that's it's not the same, and just deal with where
you are.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, and I shortchanged Mark mclare he played nineteen years
in the period Wow and he made twenty two million
dollars and the Kicker Joe, and I love this story
in the book as well, is when he came to
you and presented you with it was either an iMac
or a computer when the days were first coming out
desktop computers as a thank you for what happened all
(39:07):
those years ago.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I was sitting in my office in Anaheim Stadium, which
was a big conference room this is before the game.
I think it was a Sunday. I think it was
a day I'm pretty sure it's a day game. And
all of a sudden, Fluff comes walking in and he's
got this brand new box with the an Apple computer
in it, and he said, this is for you, and
I mean I was I started crying. I mean, I
(39:30):
really did. Nobody ever did that for me as a
former player, but that just speaks to the kind of
guy that he was. I had that for years. I
gave it to my daughter eventually and my son, one
of the two got it. But he walked in there
and he just just absolutely waffled me right there. I
could not keep it together.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Great stuff. Well, John, we can't thank you enough. We
always love talking to you about baseball and the golf world.
It's a pleasure always listening to you on television and
we enjoy your commentary so much. But even more than that,
we love having you on the Book of Joe's Thanks
for your.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Time, pleasure, guys, thanks for having me and I feel
the same about listening to you guys.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Great to see again, John, outstanding buddy, you too. Right.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Thanks to John Wood for joining us on the Book
of Joe always a great listen, fascinating guy. If you're
a fan of golf, you know about him. If you're not,
just listen to his commentary on TV. He's one of
the best out there.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
He is. He's a coach. He's a coach. He's an
absolute coach.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Absolutely, it's a great description. I love that.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, he's a coach. He's a coach.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Hey, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna come
back and wrap up this edition of the Book of
Joe with an interesting fact about talking about technology and
how it's changed baseball and golf. The Tampa Bay Rays
are doing something that has never been done before. Talk
about that and wrap up this edition of the.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I mentioned the
Tampa Bay Rays. This has gotten much attention, maybe because Joe.
They're playing this year at a minor league ballpark in Tampa,
the Yankee Spring training facility. Their pitching staff is the
fastest pitching staff ever. Their average fastball velocity is ninety
five point four, which is amazing. They have nine pitchers
(41:22):
who are averaging at least ninety five miles an hour.
So I went back and I looked at your two
thousand and eight rays and see how much this world
has changed. It reminds me of Zach Johnson winning the
two thousand and seven Masters at one over, hitting about
two hundred and fifty yard drives. Back then, the average
velocity of your pitchers, Joe, was ninety two. It is
(41:43):
ninety five point five this year it was ninety two.
It's not like we're going back to nineteen twenty, folks,
this is just two thousand and eight, and there were
only two guys who threw ninety five, Grant Balfour and
young David Price and Joe. Your staff with ninety two
mile an hour fastballs through fastballs fifty nine percent of
(42:04):
the time, and this year is raised. Even though they
throw harder than any staff in the history of baseball,
throw only forty two percent fastballs. Man, this game has
really changed. That's just seventeen years and it seems like
a hundred.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah. We used to really emphasize pitching the contact. We
wanted to get the hitter out within the first three
pitches of the bat. With that, then I felt that
we could have our starters pitch more deeply into the game,
which was still a big concept and I still believe
it should be. So that was a part of it.
So you want to elicit early countouts, get ahead in
(42:41):
the count, locate your fastball down in the way. Was
always a good gig. Two seemers underneath, brown ball, the
third whatever it might be, but that was it, and
then you played your breaking ball off that. Now nobody
wants the ball to be put in play at all,
So there's there's why. I mean, even though they're throwing harder,
they just want to get that that fastball strike to
(43:01):
speed up the bat. And then all of a sudden,
here comes a variety of different breaking balls, whether it's
a slider, the cutter, or the curveball, change up whatever.
So it's it's a mindset of not having the ball
put in play at all to where we wanted the
ball to be put in play in order to defend
and get a quicker route to keep my starter, our
starters in the game longer. So you can make all
(43:23):
the arguments you want to make about all of this.
You know, in today's game, the third time two the
batting order is really a big issue. And with that,
that's empty the tank for the first four or five
ining so I really don't want you to pitch the
third time through anyway, so let's really cut it loose,
spin it at the top of the zone, et cetera.
Where back then there was more of an artistic component
(43:45):
of pitching location, changing speeds, making sure everybody's in the
right spot defensively, which is still obviously a big priority too.
So just overarching conception conceptually was miss bats as opposed
to hitting bats and quick outs compared to like, whatever
it takes then put the ball in play. So there's
(44:05):
the primary differences.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
By the way the Rays. Also, besides throwing the ball
really crazy hard, they are averaging five strikeouts for every walk.
That would be far and away the greatest strikeout to
walk right in baseball history. So it's not just like
they're throwing wildly hard and living like that. They're a
secret in the game right now because not a lot
of people paying attention to them. I think the schedule
(44:28):
might catch up with them, because they have a front
loaded home schedule to make sure they don't run into
too many weather delays and hot temperatures in the middle
of the summer. That may catch up to them. But
right now, keep your eye on the rays and speaking
of keeping your eye on things, Joe, I got to
ask you give me your pick for the Masters coming
up this weekend.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
What do you like?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Well, that's very cool, man. We just went over that
obviously with John and he threw out a bunch of
really good names. Obviously, I've been I watch a lot.
I watch all these tournaments. I just hang out for
a bit. I kind of like the one that Eddie said,
being justin Thomas and I'll tell you why. He lost
(45:10):
the bows par at the very very end to Hoveland Hoveland,
and he did something really Thomas did really impressive. They
I don't remember I was on TV where I caught
it whatever, but he wished him well, congratulated him, and
then I'll see you at the Masters. So I thought
(45:30):
that was pretty hot. I really did. And you know,
he didn't take it easily. There's a fire that burns
within that fellow. I really believe you're and you see
the most focused version of Thomas ever. So I'm really
curious to see how this all plays out. I like
his fire. He's not the tallest, biggest, strongest looking guy
(45:50):
in the world, but my god, he can pieces as
harder as well as anybody on the tour, So I'm
gonna go with him.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
To me, he looks like a very streaky player and
that he does get on rolls and he's otherworldly when
he's on one of those good roles. I'll stick with. Actually,
a similar type player to me is Colin Marikawa. Not
the biggest guy in the world, but he has a
solid game all the way around. He's played well in
this tournament. So that's my pick coming up.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
So now it's the eighteenth hole, Joe. You've reached the
last hole here. It's time for you to close us
out as you always do on the Book of Joe.
What do you have this time?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Well, actually this pertains to the bats a little bit,
but it was just I got a little bit more
than that, and it's actually from the commission and it's
not necessarily a quote. Again, reading the post yesterday morning,
there was something that the commissioner had talked about with
the bats being part of the situation, and then the
word balance came into and I kind of so I
(46:44):
just went with the commissioner. So it's a little bit lengthy,
but stay with me. Players have actually been moving the
sweet spot around in bats for years, Man, Princess. But
it just demonstrates that something about the game is more
important than is captured by television ratings, for revenue or
any of those things. When you have the discussions and
debates about it, and I like that, that's the barroom,
(47:05):
that's that's your buddies, that's bell Hops at the bar
sitting there watching the Yankees versus Boston whatever on the tube. Man,
The discussions that it creates, that it keeps everything, keeps
everybody involved. So just the bat and moving the sweet
spot on the back created this huge conversation, and that's
good for the game. And whenever we have a conversation
(47:26):
about the game, whether I don't, regardless of what it is,
whether I agree with it or anybody agrees with it,
doesn't matter. It's entertainment, man, and I really liked that
he brought that out and really talked about the debate
and how it's near and dear to our hearts with baseball.
Then the next page you often hear about the balance
between pitching and hitting and those sorts of issues. One
(47:47):
thing we learned through all the research that we did
with the fans is that athleticism matters the most. Maybe
more than anything else. Wow, Okay, the heartbeat mattered, the
athlete mattered, the person mattered more so than daddy information
and everything else that's proliferating within this game we just
(48:08):
talked about within golf. So I love the fact that
the athlete was highlighted and how much that it matters.
So the debate, the discussion that was created regarding the bats,
and then the one thing the fans care about more
than anything is the athleticism of the game based dealings
back there seems to be more of a we've already
talked about you're seeing different signs or trends because you
(48:30):
get to see games more than I do in person, obviously,
So I love that those two comments to me really
at the essence of the game itself. So I kind
of dug on that, so I actually copied them, printed them,
and I wanted to make a point of that today.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
That's a great point because people do really not just
like baseball, but they care about it. They cherish the game,
they want to protect it. I used to have these
conversations with the former commissioner Bud Sealing a lot, because
he used to complain that the NFL wasn't held to
the same higher standard. Like a guy in the NFL,
say would be busted for peds, Nobody would say boo
(49:07):
the guy wo wind up in the Pro ball wasn't
a big deal. They change the rules every year. What's
past interference with not past interference? Nobody cares baseball. The
minute you suggest any sort of a change, people get
up at arms. And I used to tell the commissioner,
don't complain about that. That is a feature, not a
bug about baseball, because people really do cherish and care
(49:29):
about the game at a level that I don't think
is as deep in other sports. I'm just saying it's
more popular. I'm just saying about the level of care
and concern and that is a feature of this great
game of baseball.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Great pickup, Tommy, that's outstanding, And that's true. So you've
heard me mentioned this so many times that that's why
I get annoyed when we don't reference our game as
a national past time anymore. Maybe we've lost the right
to do that. I don't know. But the fact that
the explanation you just gave, and that among all the
professional sports, the one that's more upward debate than any
(50:03):
the one that creates more controversy when there's some kind
of tectonic change within it. That's it is baseball. So
I so wish that we could get back to referencing
our sport is the national pastime because that's what it is,
that's what it deserves to be recognized as. And hope
we could move back to that point again and in your.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Future, cool stuff, Joe. It's always fun to talk baseball
and a little bit of golf with you. Right, We'll
see you next time in the book at Joe, Thanks Time.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(50:48):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Perry.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome back to the latest episode of the Book of
Joe Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe,
I always love asking you about your golf game. You
got any updates for me, anything new equipment wise, game wise?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Just that I shanked a couple yesterday, first time in
a couple of years. I had no idea what I
did wrong, but we did come in second place. Overall.
I played well. No the yeah, the equipment's come was
that the GT one is that the new titleist driver.
I'm getting it with a shorter shaft right from the factory.
I found that by going from a conventional length shaft
(00:51):
on my driver to something shorter, I've been able to
hit the sweet spot a lot more often and hit farther.
So that's the big thing right there. And the other
part is just come on, man, stop the shanks.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I love that you got us right to equipment because
we have a special guest today, John Wood, caddy on
the PGA Tour for a couple of decades and now
one of the best golf analysts on TV. You see
him on NBC. John welcome to the show. I mean,
we've talked a lot on this show about torpedo bats
in the next couple of weeks, the last couple of weeks,
(01:23):
and I thought it really does dovetail with the golf world.
So let me start asking you about innovations in the
golf world. We know, as consumers were bombarded with this
all the time. Where is the state of equipment in
terms of innovations on the PGA tour level.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
It is so fast developing, it's it's unbelievable. It seems
like every week somebody else has a new driver or
a new shaft. And the thing about golf is it's
it's a great investment for those companies because they get
to sell what those pros use. It's not same in
wooden baseball bats, and there's not a lot of guys
going out, So I don't think the innovation has necessarily
(02:01):
been there. But now that they've opened up the can
of worms with increasing bat speed and moving the sweet spot,
who knows where it heads next. The thing about golf is,
I think golf would be in a much better position
today had they taken the same tact as Major League
Baseball and said no aluminum bats had had golf back
(02:23):
in the you know eighties, said no aluminum drivers, It's
got to be wood. I don't think we'd have all
these discussions about, you know, distance ruining the game.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
That's a great point. I'm gonna get to the Masters
and how that has sort of changed. Of course, the
Master's coming up this weekend. I want John's take on that.
But is there something you mentioned? All the new equipment,
how tailored is it? Because when we heard the stories
about a guy like Anthony Volpi who went to the
torpedo bat because he was hitting the baseball not exactly
(02:54):
the traditional barrel of a wood bat, so they moved
the barrel literally down a little bit closer to his hands.
It seems to fit him. It's not for everybody. I
get that, you know, I know it's highly scientific on
the tour. Is it getting even more scientific? Oh?
Speaker 4 (03:10):
They leave nothing to chance anymore, absolutely nothing. Every every
time some new a new driver comes out or new
equipment comes out, they will get on a launch monitor
and you know, everything is made for them right there.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
All the trailers are on site.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
So the club reps really know their players games well
and they know if a new shaft comes out, whether
it's a possibility or not. They knew when they put
a new head out, if it's supposed to have, you know,
put more spin on the ball, take spin off, they
know whether it will fit. But when they are looking
into new equipment, I mean, they will sit on a
(03:45):
launch monitor until they have it exactly right where they
want it, where they don't have to make adjustments to
their swing, hit the shot they want. And it's just
it is remarkable, you know. I think when we were
growing up playing, you found a perconmon head that looked
good to you and you put a stiff shaft in it,
or an extra stiff and the way you win it.
Now there's just hunt. There's so many thousands of combinations
(04:08):
of how you build it, of the head of the
shaft that you know players at that elite level, nothing
has left a chance.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
John, you're describing analytics how it pertains to equipment in golf,
and my question is I played with Blade Brown during
the Doss part a little bit on that Monday, and
I really thought I recognize an increased analytics component to
just strategy and playing golf. How much has analytics infiltrateed
(04:39):
the entire scope of the game of golf, beyond equipment.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
A ton a ton.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I think some guys actually lean on it too much
and they lose their feel for the game and they
forget to play. A lot of guys will bring launch
monitors out there now during practice rounds. Every shot they hit,
they're looking at you know, swing angles and spin rates
and start lines and club face. And I think guys,
(05:06):
some guys are using it too much where you know,
you forget how to play the game. You're playing golf
swing and not golf. But in terms of the analytics,
in terms of how to play, it's really changed the game.
You know, guys used to always lay up on par
fives if they couldn't reach and wanted a full sandwich.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Now analytics and statistics tells.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Them, don't lay up, get it as close to the
green as you can, and no matter where it is,
bunker rough, it doesn't matter. The closer you are, the
better chance you're going to have a making a birdy period.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
So it's brought a new.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Aggression to the game, and I think it's taken away
some players consistency.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
But if you want to win, you almost.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Have to play that way out there because somebody's going
to be doing it and playing well.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Three point field goals, home runs, go for the strikeout.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Exactly the same thing, exactly the same thing.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
That does sound familiar, doesn't it, Joe. As John was
talking about that, I'm thinking about all these guys in
the bullpen with their laptop behind them checking the spin rates,
you know, not knowing a good pitch until they actually
read the data of it. So, John, my question is
if I if I'm a young guy, I'm starting out
on the tour. We think of golf as an individual sport.
But as you know, these guys all have teams, right
(06:18):
and especially as you work your way up the ladder
and you have more resources and money, you can have
a deeper team. Do I need besides I don't know
swing coach, nutritionists. Do I need an analytics guy as
part of my team?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
In my opinion, no, but a lot of guys lean
on it.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
I think good caddies have been analytics guys for their
guys for years. Look, last year we did this year,
it didn't work out. Let's try a new tact on
this hole this year. Because it didn't work in the
last couple of years. You might not have had the minute,
you know, the minutia, the details, but you knew, you
knew the guy tends to miss wright on this hole.
(06:58):
You knew the guy tends to hit, you know, come
up short on this hole.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So I think you can have one.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
I think that a lot of the information is so obvious,
but it gives them something to lean on and if
they believe in it, as you guys know, you got
to go with it.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah. I mean, the dissimilarities are so scarily similar regarding
what you're talking about, and you're almost describing the bench coach.
Who's this person on the side that could be able
to analyze this independent of a computer or whatever. I
just find it really interesting. And the other thing is like, Okay,
it's just like no different than our game in baseball.
(07:35):
If there was so all this information and it's distributable
to every team out there, why are more teams winning
at a high level or high rate. I mean, there's
a couple, obviously golfers that are dominating the sport, and
I guess that's kind of always been the case. I
guess if you break it down among the guys that
are really like a shuffler of an example, and Shoffley
(07:55):
and all these guys that are really at the top
of the leader's board on a consistent basis, mclroy whatever,
justin Thomas, how many of these guys really do you
think rely heavily on this or is it more of
the newer generation coming forward, the guys that are used
to using their phones and really relying on social media
and information to that regard, Is there like a disparate
(08:18):
group like this, this somewhat the old school group that
really are relatively young, it's compared to even like the
Blade Browns of the world just coming up? Is could
you see an absolute difference or is it kind of
a blurred line right now they're both doing it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
It's kind of a blurred line.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
I would say the best players I think are the
best for a lot of reasons, but one is they
know when to use it when not to use it.
Scotti Scheffer, he mentioned he probably uses less technology than anybody.
I mean he rarely you see him on the range
looking at a shot tracker, seeing what every ball does.
He watches the ballflight, what did that feel like? He
(08:56):
can always go back to that, and he does check
it every once in a while. But he's probably I
think he uses it less than anyone. And I think
the established players you just mentioned, justin Thomas, Scottie Scheffler
or Rory, they know when to use it when to
put it away. And that is so huge because I
think a lot of the young guys, as I said,
they lean on it too much, and all the answers
(09:17):
are on this launch monitor instead of playing the game.
And as you guys know, it's just a completely different thing.
Having a good golf swing, a perfect golf swing that's
technically perfect is great, but it's not going to let
you shoot, you know, sixty six if you don't know
how to play golf.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
They're two totally different things.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Otani equals Scheffler, Scheffler equals Altani. That's what you just
said to me right there. Yeah, that's just what you
said to me.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Yeah, I rarely, you know, when Tiger was out here,
I rarely saw Tiger with a launch monitor.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Rarely.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
I talked to him at the you know that cool
father son at the end of the year, and I
talked to him. He said he hates when his son
Charlie gets on the launch monitor because he falls in
love with numbers and he forgets what the ball's doing.
So I think the I think the greats of the
game know when to put it away more than the
really really good players.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Let's say, John, let's explore the training side of this,
because we've seen this, and I think it's analogous again
in the pitching world, the need for speed, if you will, right,
and we know that when we grew up, if you
had a good arm, you were just blessed with a
good arm. Now we know that you can actually train
for velocity and add velocity, and from what I hear,
(10:26):
the same thing is happening in golf. Everything is about speed,
and we have guys training for more and more speed.
Speed equals distance, distance equals lower scores. But isn't there
or is there an injury risk, because certainly there is
one in baseball with pitching, the harder you throw, the
more torque there is on your elbow, and the more
injuries it creates. Are we seeing the same in golf.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
No question about it, no question about it.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Like you said, the peak of golf right now I
think is better than it's ever been because of those
physical limitations that have kind of been removed at this point.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
All always had to kind of protect yourself in golf.
You hear Jack talk about.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
He never swung more than eighty percent of the driver
because the sweet spot was so small, and those persim
and heads. Now the driver heads are so big. It's
a much, much much bigger sweet spot. It curves less,
so they're allowed and encouraged to swing harder, which they
never were before. You know, when Jack was playing back
with persimon heads, let's say his normal best drive went
(11:30):
two ninety. Well, if he missed it a little bit,
that was down to two fifty. You know, it was
a bit and curving a lot. Now they can miss
by much more. It's it doesn't change the shot that much.
It's so difficult to curve these drivers and these golf
balls compared to the old ones, that they're going at
it as hard as they can. And you're right in
(11:52):
terms of swing. Coaches and trainers now are working together.
Here's what I'm trying to get him do in the swing.
What parts of his body do you need to work
on to get stronger or more flexible. They're working hand
in hand, but to your point, it's such a much
more violent move and you're seeing a lot more injuries
in everything, not just back but everything. You know, you've
(12:16):
already heard about Jack Nicholas or Tom Watson withdrawing from
a golf tournament because of an injury.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Just didn't happen. Now it's happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Well and totally. I've heard stories about the wrists especially
is at risk with these faster golf swings. Are you
finding that to be true?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
No question.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Jordan Speeth is just coming back from that. You know,
Xander had the oblique injury, which in any twisting sport,
baseball golf is probably the hardest to recover from because
you never quite trust it. Scotty Scheffler had that freak
injury with his hand, had nothing to do with golf,
But yeah, risks, wrists and back. It's just it's so
much more stress on it than it used to be,
(12:57):
like exactly like you described with baseball pitchers.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's so similar. It's incredible. Having talked about you're talking
about the physical side of this whole thing right now.
The thing that really intrigues me is the again, the
mental side, like for instance, course management and you as
a caddie for so many years, would you consider yourself
like the in charge of this team. Regarding course management,
(13:20):
I'm sure, like you know a Tiger Woods that said,
I've heard him speak about it. But how much of
this course management component of playing the game, the actual
mental side of the game, trying to beat your component,
BEATNM with your competitive nature, with your brain, with better execution.
To me, it would seem like you, guys, as a caddy,
almost like you're like the coach on the field right there.
(13:43):
I don't know how often you're willing to give advice
or whatever. That would have to depend on the relationship
between the two of you, how comfortable you are to
say something in a moment. But anyway, course management, how
much of that is your responsibility and how much does
the player himself take charge of that himself.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
I think you're right it varies between between the teams.
But caddies are more involved now than they've ever been.
They have more information, They work harder on the you know,
pre round without their player looking at the golf course
trying to figure out, Okay, what is the best strategy
for my player, because it's not going to be across
the board the same way. Players are so different in
(14:21):
their strength that you have to find out and figure
out let's say I'm working for Matt Kucher, how does
Matt Coucher best best play this golf course? And I
have to think about wind directions, whole locations because it
changes every day. But you know, to your point, I
always felt it was kind of like calling pitches. There's
never one right pitch. And as a catcher or a
(14:44):
bench coach, if you're calling pitches and you call something
and the pitcher isn't not feeling that, there's always something else.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
To go to.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So I always thought, as calling pitches, here's what I
think we should throw right here. But if you're not
feeling that one, we can come up with another option.
So that's kind of how I always looked at it.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
John let me circle to torpedo bats because it was
a perfect storm. It was a weekend at Yankee Stadium.
The Brewers came in with nine pitchers on the il.
They have the least velocity of four seamers of any staff,
so they were depleted. They left, you know, ninety mile
an hour fastballs over the middle of the plate, and
the Yankees in that ballpark hammered them. But of course
the focus was on the bats. It was hysteria I
(15:26):
think the bats are an interesting innovation, but we still
have a major League batting average that's actually down from
last April. It's still in the two thirties. There's not
widespread acceptance to the bat. I think will help some people.
I'm wondering if there has been something in golf, John
that you saw as something that was a game changer.
Was something in the shafts, the club faces, the ball itself,
(15:48):
where there was near universal acceptance that this is the
way forward.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I would say the last time that happened was when
the prov One came out, you know, back in early
two thousands. That was such a revolutionary golf ball, going
from the era of ballata with the wound rubber bands
and softcore to all of a sudden the ball that
would spend almost as much when you needed it to,
but went way farther. That's the last time I think
(16:18):
there was kind of a universal acceptance of that you
have to do this, you can't compete without doing this.
But like I said, new shafts come out all the time.
Iron heads, there's x amount you can.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Do with an ironhead.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
You know, there's there's different looks, but it's not going
to change the playability of it. Where the most of
the technology comes in golf is is drivers, and that's
where most of the money goes. They spend all their
money developing that, trying to find a way around the rules,
not to cheat the rules. But okay, they've written it
like this, but how can we maybe skirt that a
little bit or get closer to that line?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And there's there's no there's no limit to it, no
matter what kind of you know. They're talking about this
ball roll back that I think will happen, but guys
will adjust. They just always find a way, and I
don't think it's going to change scores at all.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
By the way, have you seen any lead tape out
there recently?
Speaker 3 (17:13):
It's funny.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Last time I had I always had lead tape in
the bag, but I think it was a harding park
President's Cup and the greens were really slow and Tiger,
Tiger of all people, what have you got.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Any lead tape? Because he couldn't couldn't get his much
as the hole.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
So yeah, now they all have wrenches and weights to
move around, so not much lead tape anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Hey, listen, we're gonna take a quick break here, and
I promise you we're gonna talk to John about the Masters,
and I'm going to talk to him about his first
love as well, which is directly related to baseball. We'll
do that right after this on the Book of Joe.
(17:58):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know that John is a huge San Francisco Giants fan.
I mean the commentating stuff just gets in the way
of him watching Giants games. His first love is San
Francisco Giants. You gotta be feeling pretty good about your team, John.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I'm thrilled that. I am absolutely thrilled with this start.
They're a fun team to watch. They look like they
are together, which is always a fun thing to watch
early on, and you know, you have a couple walkoffs
early in the year, you almost feel like you're never
out of.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
A ball game.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
So it's a fun team that Busters put together. We're
surprising some people.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I think, yeah, I like what I'm seeing so far too.
I think even Vera Lander really hasn't kicked it in
gear yet. However, his presence alone is going to make
a difference within that pitching staff. The team on the
feels kind of interesting. Also, I'm a big Wilmer florist guy.
I mean, this guy could absolutely devastate left handed pitching.
Saw that back with the Mets and then I saw
(18:54):
with the Giants. I mean, this guy, to me has
been an under radar, under the radar kind of performer
for a while and he's really helping get off to
this wonderful start web pitch. This is a throwback pitcher.
They've always had this throwback gene or chip within them,
and it goes back to boaching the boys and Brian Sabian.
There's something about I mean, not something obviously, it really
(19:15):
appeals to my sensibilities. So I'm kind of a closet
fan also, And you know Bomel is the manager Bobby
and our friends and was very interesting always to work
against him. And I didn't know a Buster Posey Harley
at all. Big admirer of his abilities, though. But there's
a I think they've created a balance, I guess is
what I'm tap dancing around. There's a balance between old
(19:38):
and new there that I think is really well done.
It seems to fit seamlessly. I think there's these players
there know that they have the ability to be themselves
like we were just talking earlier. If you need some information,
whether it's a analytically inclined or just something good old fashioned,
a swing coach or a pitching coach, whatever, I think
(20:00):
they got all of that stuff lined up pretty well,
and I think that's the right way do things. I'm
curious to see how this season plays offer them because
I like the way they built it.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I think a lot of from the fan base, I
know a lot of us felt like they went too
far into analytics in the last few years and kind
of lost you know, who they are as a franchise,
you know, homegrown talent and playing baseball the right way.
And it feels like with Buster moving in, he's kind
of leading it back to that.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yes, we still have analytics, I say, week, but you know.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
It's just it's almost like I was talking about in golf,
you forget how to play the game when you just
sit there and look at the monitors all the time.
And I think it's probably similar in baseball. These guys,
these guys are playing baseball again, which is fun.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, it's a great point, John. You look around the game,
and I do think the pendulum is swinging back a
little bit a correction if you will, where you see
like Buster Posey, Craig Breslo and Boston, Chris Young in Texas,
Chris Gets in Chicago, you know, giving the keys to
the car back into the hands of some players. Not
to say it's totally old school, but as you mentioned
the Blend, so and talking about Blend, let's talk about
(21:05):
Augusta and what wins there. The equipment, John does seem
to make the course play differently. I know years and
years ago they tried to tiger proof the place. But
for me, just looking at the scores in the last
seven years, you've got to shoot at least ten under.
Ten to twenty under is a winning score. And in
the first forty years of the Masters, it took forty
(21:26):
tournaments to have seven times where the score was at
least ten under. So scores do seem to be going lower.
Is the course playing differently now because of the equipment.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Very much so, and they're protecting it differently. They're protecting
the score differently. Listen, they lengthen holes, and they need
to because the ball goes so far now. But distance
is not of great defense for a golf course anymore.
Because all these guys hit it so far, not only
their driver. But you know, when I'm growing up, Jack
Nicholas used to hit a seven iron one fifty. Now
(21:58):
these guys hit it one to eighty one eighty five.
So it's not just the driver, it's everything combined. So
they used to, you know, be able to control scores
with distance, with rough Now they do it with firm,
fast greens and hopefully wind. Those are the two things
that make it scoring tough. If it is windless and
(22:20):
fairly soft conditions, I don't care what's going on. Somebody's
going to shoot eighteen under par so excuse me. Augusta
has that unique ability to you know, they've got the
subair on all the greens so they can it can
rain the day before they flip that switch and it
all the moisture gets sucked out, and all of a sudden,
it's firm and fast again. So they've gone defending the
(22:41):
golf course very very differently. If you watch you know,
old highlights of the Masters in the sixties and seventies,
you know Arnie's just taking you know, wrist break with
his putts and hitting them.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Hard because you had to.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Now everything is just so fast and so scary around
the greens that that's how that's how they're defending it.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
So it's different.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
They're hitting shorter clubs in, but it's still it's a
golf course where the difference between hitting a shot one
thirty two, which you're trying to and one thirty four,
which is dead is that's how.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
That's how a razor's edge.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
They can put that golf course on when it's firm
and fast, and I think after yesterday at rain, but
the rest of the week's supposed to be dry, so
I expect one of those fun years where the ball
is gonna be bouncing.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I mean, that's that's like every golf course, right, I mean,
I've been playing at Florida has been so darned windy.
Oh my god, it's been so darned windy. And I
just joined the Saint Pete Country Club, Saint Petersburgh Country Club,
and it's a redone. Gary Coke did the redo on
this place, and oh nice. Yeah, it's it's really cool, man.
It's an old school layout nineteen twenty four, twenty five
(23:49):
something like that. Raymond Floyd won a tournament there in
the sixties, I believe. But anyway, since they put the
new greens in. That's exactly what Gary told us from
the very first day that it's gonna be a little
bit hard and they're gonna run. They're gonna run away
from you. And you look at all the undulation and
it's not playing yet because it's a little bit slow
to putt. It's like these greens they don't hold when
(24:12):
you want to when you want them the hole and
they and they run when you don't want him to run.
They're just like they're schizophrenic. But he did a wonderful job.
It's really exciting. But win, my god, it's treacherous anywhere
right it is. And then the hard green probably two
of the most difficult things I've attempted to master as
a real, real novice at this game.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
You're you're not alone.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
That's what really in stalls the elite that those are
the two things that can stall the elite player.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Indecision when you get that wind swirling around. Yes, it's
you can't get over the ball with one hundred percent commitment.
If you can't do that, most likely you're not going
to make your best swing. But and then firm greens
where you're kind of decide. All right, am I going
to try and hit this hard, put it up in
the air with a lot of spin and stop it?
Or am I going to take it a little lower,
take some spin off, skip it back, let it release
(24:58):
a little bit. So a lot more options.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So john eighteen years ago, Zach Johnson was the equivalent
of a guy throwing about eighty seven touch and field
guy right, and he wins the Masters at one over par.
I'm not sure what his average length was, but I
mean he couldn't carry probably some of the holes at
Bethpage Black. So is that type of player. Certainly that
(25:24):
score been drummed out of the game because you just
you just have to in order to compete, you know,
have almost three hundred yards of carry.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it hasn't completely been
drummed out, but they're few and far between. I'm thinking
of a guy like Russell Henley, who's been playing some
of the best golf of his career the last couple
of years.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
He's not a long guy at all.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
He's very much into a Greg Maddox mold where he's
just gonna fool you with speed and controlling his golf ball.
And be a great putter, but there are fewer and
far between.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
There used to be quite a few of them, but
not anymore.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
That's to get out here now, even to be a
a major amateur or you know, a really good college player.
These guys are growing up with trainers with the best equipment,
and everybody when they get out here, hits it a
long way now. So there's a few hanging on to
that old school. But I get I expected to be
fewer and fewer as we go along.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, you're looking at you just described. How about the
other day, Tommy, I got in a phone conversation with
dal Maxwell for former Cardinals shortstop right he played. I
don't know how many years he played in the at
least twelve, thirteen, fourteen. He would even make like a
Triple A team these days. I mean he would have
absolutely no chance. I thinking Nelly Fox. More recently, my buddy,
my man, David Fletcher, Mark Bilandrew with the Orioles. I mean,
(26:44):
these guys would have like.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Zero Hoddy Harrol.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, I'm gone.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I know these guys had steady jobs too.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, exactly, I'm going a little bit farther back. I
understand that. But the discrepancy between then and now Billy Ripkin,
Kyle couldn't even keep him on the team. I mean,
the discrepancy is incredible, the size of the athlete, the
strength of the athlete, and so forth and so on,
And I could argue we're talking about like the ability
to play the game with the Maxwell of Fox, of Bolander,
(27:12):
of Fletcher, their ability to play the game was, Uh,
it's like superstar ability, It's like five data kappus ability,
it's like graduate school ability. But physically they didn't have
what the the current modern game requires. So that that
it bothered me a little bit that I'm talking to
and I call mister Maxwell, God, what a great conversation.
(27:33):
I got so lucky. But it's so different, and you
can't argue that at all, there's no argument. But I
would love to put their brains or their no how
our abilities, their sensibilities in regards to playing the game
into the minds or brains of some of these kids today.
They're just physical specimens outstanding, but their their gamesmanship, their
(27:54):
ability to to work the game, see the game, compete
the game, and in advance of situations. These guys really
had an edge with that.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Yeah, it's it seems like what's being asked of baseball
players now compared to what used to be asked of
certain positions. It was fine if your shortstop hit two
ten because he wanted to be a good defender. He
was fining for second baseman, you know, had no pop whatsoever,
as I an get a bunt down and run a
little bit and play good defense. Now every position seems
like they want the big guy at that position.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
There's not room for the role players as much anymore.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I used to look at batting orders when I was
doing this thing, and I'd always look at the number
seven hitter, and I always thought, you know, from seven,
eight to nine, it would normally fall off the cliff
a little bit. It'd be there'd be some outs in
in an American Leagueland if this was when I was
with the Angels back in the day, but all of
a sudden were playing Cleveland and David Justice is hitting seven,
I thought, here we go, I mean, and then you
(28:49):
go back to the Baltimore Orioles in the night really
in the nineties, and Hoyles was hitting ninth for the
Orioles and he had twenty plus armers. The whole lineup
had twenty plus armers. I know this is more recent,
we think, but the advent began back then, and part
of that was a steroidal area era also where guys
just where beefy and the ball went farther, et cetera.
(29:10):
But it's just it's just it's been going on for
a bit. I think it just we're just recognizing it
more recently.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, John, I want you to look ahead now of
the Masters, and you know, I guess you know. You
look at Scheffler, you look at McElroy, right, Scheffler maybe
not as locked in as he was last year. But
if I gave you the choice between the field or
the Scheffler McElroy combo, would you take the top two
or you have to go to the field because the
competition is just it's so deep in today's golf world.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Last year I would have said, I'll take Sciotti Scheffler,
but this year I would take the field. I just
think I feel like this year, yeah, Rory has played great,
but there's such a monkey on his back at Augusta.
The pressure on him on Thursday is going to be
so enormous, knowing he's playing well. But I think I
think there's eight to ten guys that I would call
(30:01):
pretty close to even money this year.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
I have a feeling about JT.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
I think he's playing great golf, hasn't won yet this year,
but that guy plays so good with a chip on
his shoulder, and I think he's got that little Losing
that lead at the vus Bar, I think really chapped
him a little bit, and I expect him to have
a really good week.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
But you know, you look at Scheffler.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
McElroy, Morikawa, Rom Ludvig, Obert, Shoftley. There's so many guys
that I wouldn't be surprised to see win this week
that I don't have a big favorite like Scheffler's been
the last couple of years.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
That's pretty good to hear. I would agree with you,
and I think, you know, one of the things that
I don't like hearing during a golf broadcast is when
announcers like to say this guy's only one like one
or two major, hasn't won a major. Man, it is
so hard to win a golf tournament. I mean, I
just look at these fields and you just rattled off John.
You know almost a dozen guys who I have no
(30:58):
problem seeing wearing that green jacket on Sunday. I do
think the depth of the field is is better than ever.
I'm not sure if you would agree with that, but
it just seems to me looking from Afar that the
like legitimate guys contenders to win a major. It's deeper
than it was twenty years ago.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
No question about it, no question about it. I mean,
you look at the winners this year.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Any given week, you know, anybody can win a golf tournament.
That's how good all these guys are. In the separation
between the best and the you know, the average is
not that great. Things click one week, you guys gonna
have a chance to win. But I think, yeah, in
terms of the elite players post Tiger era, I think
we're in a point where we've got twelve to fifteen
(31:43):
guys every week and even more in the majors. When
you know you get everybody back together live with the
live players back, I think that is more true than ever.
That's just like I said, there's to me, there's not
a favorite this week, there's about ten to twelve of them.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I love the idea of them guys getting back together.
I know, y'all, I would imagine you all do. He
had all those names back in these in these even
weekly events, not just the majors. I mean, like D
Chambeau right now. To me, he typifies what the sport
needs actually be. I mean, Shuffler is a great representation.
Don't get me wrong. I love the guys in Metronome,
(32:20):
but D Chambeau and his and his personality I think
really plays. I mean that the guy works, He's got,
you know, mad talent kind of a thing, but the
way he demonstrates his emotion and how he plays with
the fans, it's it's reminiscent of a past year, I think,
and I really enjoy it. This guy started out several
years ago not being that guy viewed in a different way,
(32:43):
but all of a sudden, he's reinvented himself. And I
give him a lot of credit because I listened to him,
I watch him, and I like it. He's enjoying it
out there. He's having fun with it out there, and
I think that's why it performs so well in big moments,
because he takes himself seriously, but not too seriously.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
I think, Yeah, I think reinvention is the perfect word.
When he came out, he was very different person than
he is now, and he looks like he's having fun.
Like you said, he's interacting with the fans. He doesn't
freak out if somebody happens to cough. He's it's just
he's fun to watch. I wasn't his biggest fan when
he came out, to be honest with you, I kind
(33:19):
of felt like, so all these guys in the last
one hundred and fifty years didn't know how to play golf,
but you're you're reinventing it. But he really has reinvented
quite a few things, and he's fun to watch. I
love the tournaments and we get to watch him and
he's he's back competing against these guys.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Well, John, before we let you go with all our
guests here, we like to have what we call a
reading from the Book of Joe. You get to pick
a number between one and three hundred and sixty five.
That is the number of pages in the Book of Joe.
And we're absolutely sure that whatever number you pick, you
will land on something that's interesting. So it's your choice here.
(33:56):
You can go anywhere between one and three sixty five.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Let's go with one oh seven.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Like the fact that you went triple digits, by the way.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yeah, I think last time I took twenty two, which
was Will Clark's number, it was my favorite.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
But just coming up coming up with something a little
later this one.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, this is interesting. I'm glad you picked this one
because it's a Joe always likes to call it the struggle,
right that everybody sees the glory and the championships and
the winning, but a lot of times the happiness, especially
looking back on it, comes from the struggle to get there.
And this was a story Joe tells about Mark McLamore.
(34:36):
Remember Mac Fluff you called him, by the way, why'd
you call him fluff?
Speaker 5 (34:40):
Joe?
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Hair do? He had really this really magnificent fro. He
was seventeen eighteen, coming out of San Diego High School.
One of the nicest guys I've ever met in the game.
He came up to Salem, Oregon, and he actually had
like chicken pox or something like that on top of whatever.
But anyway, he had a magnificent season. We're still really
(35:02):
good friends. But anyway, it was all because of this
fluffy hairdoo that he had.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Okay, so Fluff is seventeen years old and there's probably
stories like this on the corn Ferry and other tours
John where he's miserable, he's homestick, he's a kid away
from home for the first time, and he goes into
Joe's office and he wants to go home, he wants
to quit, and Joe says to him, what you're missing
(35:28):
right now, buddy, no longer exists. You're missing a memory.
What you're missing is no longer there. Your friends are
not the same, your friends are not there, The places
are not going to have the same allure to you.
It's just not the same, and you're going to go
back to something entirely different, and you'll be upset with
the fact that you've done it. What your mind is
(35:48):
doing is not giving you good information. It may have
been true before, but it's not true today. I want
you to bear down on what we are doing and
really get reinvested into just playing here and know that
whatever we miss when we're seventeen, being away from home
for the first time, no longer exists at home. Mark
mcklamore mounded up having it. I don't know, at least
(36:10):
a ten year career in the major leagues, made a
lot of money.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, more than that. Listen, that happened actually in a
hotel room because my office was the hotel. That was
so early in the year, and he came in and
really desponded. And that's a pretty good recap right there.
The conversation, everything about it is pretty much right on
the money. And I just knew this kid was going
to be really really good. On top of that, like
really this effervescent personality smiled so easily, was he was
(36:38):
infectious about so many different things, ran well, had a
great arm, switch hitter everything, and he strong bodied everything
going for him. So that one moment right there that
caused me on an annual basis, especially in an a
ball when it came to be August first, I would
get the players together and have many team meetings, but
I used to on August first, and it was setting
(36:59):
down in the bleachers at our ballpark, and I talked
to him about those specifics in regards to whatever you're
missing right now no longer exists because y'all can't wait
to get home if we have one more month to play.
You miss your buddies, you miss your spots, whatever it
might be. I'm here to tell you that no longer
exists that way, because I was trying to keep them
motivated for the rest of the season and some were
(37:20):
going to go to instructional League in Arizona beginning September
fifteenth through Halloween. So I think that's just a natural
I mean, happened to me as a you know, I
wanted to come home after one week at Lafayette because
it was kind of tough. It was a cultural difference.
Told my mom I wanted to be a plumber like
my dad, and she said, no, you're not, No, you're not.
You're staying right there. So all that stuff I got,
(37:41):
I could see, like was yesterday, and he had a
wonderful major league career and he's been a broadcaster with
the Rangers, et cetera. Anyway, we stay in touch. But
that's a really good recap Tommy.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
How about you, John, did you have a Mark macklamore
moment when you started cattying where you're like, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
You know, I love that I lucked out and picked
that page because that was one of my favorite stories
in the whole book. It's a life lesson much bigger
than baseball or golf. It's it's life, but Yeah, you
definitely had those moments in caddying more than I do
now because now it's more a lot more consistent week
in week out. But you'd have those stretches where maybe
(38:17):
your player wasn't playing great or you weren't getting along,
and you'd start.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
And thinking, Eh, is there something else I can get
back to?
Speaker 4 (38:24):
And then you know, you just think, no, there's nothing
as good as this, and you know it's you figure
it out quickly. But yeah, I think everybody in life
in general, much less sports, has those moments. But it's
such a great lesson to learn that that's not there anymore,
that's it's not the same, and just deal with where
you are.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, and I shortchanged Mark mclare he played nineteen years
in the period Wow and he made twenty two million
dollars and the Kicker Joe, and I love this story
in the book as well, is when he came to
you and presented you with it was either an iMac
or a computer when the days were first coming out
desktop computers as a thank you for what happened all
(39:07):
those years ago.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I was sitting in my office in Anaheim Stadium, which
was a big conference room this is before the game.
I think it was a Sunday. I think it was
a day I'm pretty sure it's a day game. And
all of a sudden, Fluff comes walking in and he's
got this brand new box with the an Apple computer
in it, and he said, this is for you, and
I mean I was I started crying. I mean, I
(39:30):
really did. Nobody ever did that for me as a
former player, but that just speaks to the kind of
guy that he was. I had that for years. I
gave it to my daughter eventually and my son, one
of the two got it. But he walked in there
and he just just absolutely waffled me right there. I
could not keep it together.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Great stuff. Well, John, we can't thank you enough. We
always love talking to you about baseball and the golf world.
It's a pleasure always listening to you on television and
we enjoy your commentary so much. But even more than that,
we love having you on the Book of Joe's Thanks
for your.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Time, pleasure, guys, thanks for having me and I feel
the same about listening to you guys.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Great to see again, John, outstanding buddy, you too. Right.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Thanks to John Wood for joining us on the Book
of Joe always a great listen, fascinating guy. If you're
a fan of golf, you know about him. If you're not,
just listen to his commentary on TV. He's one of
the best out there.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
He is. He's a coach. He's a coach. He's an
absolute coach.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Absolutely, it's a great description. I love that.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, he's a coach. He's a coach.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Hey, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna come
back and wrap up this edition of the Book of
Joe with an interesting fact about talking about technology and
how it's changed baseball and golf. The Tampa Bay Rays
are doing something that has never been done before. Talk
about that and wrap up this edition of the.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I mentioned the
Tampa Bay Rays. This has gotten much attention, maybe because Joe.
They're playing this year at a minor league ballpark in Tampa,
the Yankee Spring training facility. Their pitching staff is the
fastest pitching staff ever. Their average fastball velocity is ninety
five point four, which is amazing. They have nine pitchers
(41:22):
who are averaging at least ninety five miles an hour.
So I went back and I looked at your two
thousand and eight rays and see how much this world
has changed. It reminds me of Zach Johnson winning the
two thousand and seven Masters at one over, hitting about
two hundred and fifty yard drives. Back then, the average
velocity of your pitchers, Joe, was ninety two. It is
(41:43):
ninety five point five this year it was ninety two.
It's not like we're going back to nineteen twenty, folks,
this is just two thousand and eight, and there were
only two guys who threw ninety five, Grant Balfour and
young David Price and Joe. Your staff with ninety two
mile an hour fastballs through fastballs fifty nine percent of
(42:04):
the time, and this year is raised. Even though they
throw harder than any staff in the history of baseball,
throw only forty two percent fastballs. Man, this game has
really changed. That's just seventeen years and it seems like
a hundred.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah. We used to really emphasize pitching the contact. We
wanted to get the hitter out within the first three
pitches of the bat. With that, then I felt that
we could have our starters pitch more deeply into the game,
which was still a big concept and I still believe
it should be. So that was a part of it.
So you want to elicit early countouts, get ahead in
(42:41):
the count, locate your fastball down in the way. Was
always a good gig. Two seemers underneath, brown ball, the
third whatever it might be, but that was it, and
then you played your breaking ball off that. Now nobody
wants the ball to be put in play at all,
So there's there's why. I mean, even though they're throwing harder,
they just want to get that that fastball strike to
(43:01):
speed up the bat. And then all of a sudden,
here comes a variety of different breaking balls, whether it's
a slider, the cutter, or the curveball, change up whatever.
So it's it's a mindset of not having the ball
put in play at all to where we wanted the
ball to be put in play in order to defend
and get a quicker route to keep my starter, our
starters in the game longer. So you can make all
(43:23):
the arguments you want to make about all of this.
You know, in today's game, the third time two the
batting order is really a big issue. And with that,
that's empty the tank for the first four or five
ining so I really don't want you to pitch the
third time through anyway, so let's really cut it loose,
spin it at the top of the zone, et cetera.
Where back then there was more of an artistic component
(43:45):
of pitching location, changing speeds, making sure everybody's in the
right spot defensively, which is still obviously a big priority too.
So just overarching conception conceptually was miss bats as opposed
to hitting bats and quick outs compared to like, whatever
it takes then put the ball in play. So there's
(44:05):
the primary differences.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
By the way the Rays. Also, besides throwing the ball
really crazy hard, they are averaging five strikeouts for every walk.
That would be far and away the greatest strikeout to
walk right in baseball history. So it's not just like
they're throwing wildly hard and living like that. They're a
secret in the game right now because not a lot
of people paying attention to them. I think the schedule
(44:28):
might catch up with them, because they have a front
loaded home schedule to make sure they don't run into
too many weather delays and hot temperatures in the middle
of the summer. That may catch up to them. But
right now, keep your eye on the rays and speaking
of keeping your eye on things, Joe, I got to
ask you give me your pick for the Masters coming
up this weekend.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
What do you like?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Well, that's very cool, man. We just went over that
obviously with John and he threw out a bunch of
really good names. Obviously, I've been I watch a lot.
I watch all these tournaments. I just hang out for
a bit. I kind of like the one that Eddie said,
being justin Thomas and I'll tell you why. He lost
(45:10):
the bows par at the very very end to Hoveland Hoveland,
and he did something really Thomas did really impressive. They
I don't remember I was on TV where I caught
it whatever, but he wished him well, congratulated him, and
then I'll see you at the Masters. So I thought
(45:30):
that was pretty hot. I really did. And you know,
he didn't take it easily. There's a fire that burns
within that fellow. I really believe you're and you see
the most focused version of Thomas ever. So I'm really
curious to see how this all plays out. I like
his fire. He's not the tallest, biggest, strongest looking guy
(45:50):
in the world, but my god, he can pieces as
harder as well as anybody on the tour, So I'm
gonna go with him.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
To me, he looks like a very streaky player and
that he does get on rolls and he's otherworldly when
he's on one of those good roles. I'll stick with. Actually,
a similar type player to me is Colin Marikawa. Not
the biggest guy in the world, but he has a
solid game all the way around. He's played well in
this tournament. So that's my pick coming up.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
So now it's the eighteenth hole, Joe. You've reached the
last hole here. It's time for you to close us
out as you always do on the Book of Joe.
What do you have this time?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Well, actually this pertains to the bats a little bit,
but it was just I got a little bit more
than that, and it's actually from the commission and it's
not necessarily a quote. Again, reading the post yesterday morning,
there was something that the commissioner had talked about with
the bats being part of the situation, and then the
word balance came into and I kind of so I
(46:44):
just went with the commissioner. So it's a little bit lengthy,
but stay with me. Players have actually been moving the
sweet spot around in bats for years, Man, Princess. But
it just demonstrates that something about the game is more
important than is captured by television ratings, for revenue or
any of those things. When you have the discussions and
debates about it, and I like that, that's the barroom,
(47:05):
that's that's your buddies, that's bell Hops at the bar
sitting there watching the Yankees versus Boston whatever on the tube. Man,
The discussions that it creates, that it keeps everything, keeps
everybody involved. So just the bat and moving the sweet
spot on the back created this huge conversation, and that's
good for the game. And whenever we have a conversation
(47:26):
about the game, whether I don't, regardless of what it is,
whether I agree with it or anybody agrees with it,
doesn't matter. It's entertainment, man, and I really liked that
he brought that out and really talked about the debate
and how it's near and dear to our hearts with baseball.
Then the next page you often hear about the balance
between pitching and hitting and those sorts of issues. One
(47:47):
thing we learned through all the research that we did
with the fans is that athleticism matters the most. Maybe
more than anything else. Wow, Okay, the heartbeat mattered, the
athlete mattered, the person mattered more so than daddy information
and everything else that's proliferating within this game we just
(48:08):
talked about within golf. So I love the fact that
the athlete was highlighted and how much that it matters.
So the debate, the discussion that was created regarding the bats,
and then the one thing the fans care about more
than anything is the athleticism of the game based dealings
back there seems to be more of a we've already
talked about you're seeing different signs or trends because you
(48:30):
get to see games more than I do in person, obviously,
So I love that those two comments to me really
at the essence of the game itself. So I kind
of dug on that, so I actually copied them, printed them,
and I wanted to make a point of that today.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
That's a great point because people do really not just
like baseball, but they care about it. They cherish the game,
they want to protect it. I used to have these
conversations with the former commissioner Bud Sealing a lot, because
he used to complain that the NFL wasn't held to
the same higher standard. Like a guy in the NFL,
say would be busted for peds, Nobody would say boo
(49:07):
the guy wo wind up in the Pro ball wasn't
a big deal. They change the rules every year. What's
past interference with not past interference? Nobody cares baseball. The
minute you suggest any sort of a change, people get
up at arms. And I used to tell the commissioner,
don't complain about that. That is a feature, not a
bug about baseball, because people really do cherish and care
(49:29):
about the game at a level that I don't think
is as deep in other sports. I'm just saying it's
more popular. I'm just saying about the level of care
and concern and that is a feature of this great
game of baseball.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Great pickup, Tommy, that's outstanding, And that's true. So you've
heard me mentioned this so many times that that's why
I get annoyed when we don't reference our game as
a national past time anymore. Maybe we've lost the right
to do that. I don't know. But the fact that
the explanation you just gave, and that among all the
professional sports, the one that's more upward debate than any
(50:03):
the one that creates more controversy when there's some kind
of tectonic change within it. That's it is baseball. So
I so wish that we could get back to referencing
our sport is the national pastime because that's what it is,
that's what it deserves to be recognized as. And hope
we could move back to that point again and in your.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Future, cool stuff, Joe. It's always fun to talk baseball
and a little bit of golf with you. Right, We'll
see you next time in the book at Joe, Thanks Time.
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(50:48):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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