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November 3, 2023 63 mins

The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon begins with the Texas Rangers winning The World Series.  Looking at the five game series, what made this series different than any other?  Joe talks about the conversations a manager has with his players during the World Series.  How did chemistry and the makeup of these teams play into who won?  Tom points out how Bruce Bochy was the first of many moves that put the Rangers on top.  

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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello Again and Welcome back.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
It's the Book of Joe podcast with Tom Verducci and
Joe Madden.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
And this is a special World Series.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Wrap Up edition wrap up because that's what the Texas
Rangers did in five games, winning the World Championship the
one hundred and nineteenth World Series. Joe, I didn't expect
it to be over in five that quickly when it began.
But after seeing those teams the first couple of games,
I will be honest with you, Joe, I thought Texas

(00:46):
was the better team, and I thought they did have
a chance to win five. So give me your quick
thumbnail take on what happened here in the World Series
for Texas to take Arizona out in five.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, I agree with you, just from a distance, and
you had a much better seat than I did. But
it just on TV appeared as the Texas was a
better ball club, more well rounded, better lineup up and down.
You know, I still like the I'd like the Diamondbacks
pitching a little bit. I think a team on the field,
they were definitely surpassed. They had the two superstars that
came through. Definitely and another one that got injured. But

(01:19):
they're talking about Sieger and Simeon and then and of
course Larcia. They were just different. They were better. They're
just they're a better ball club. During the course of
the season where they went up with right around ninety wins,
they should have been masked at least ninety five. They're
in the trouble a couple of times, but there they were.
They were the better ball club, so that that kind
of went out in the end that the better team won.

(01:40):
I think the youth and inexperience of overall of the
Diamondbacks kind of started to show through there at the end.
You know, they were like almost so naive to the
point that they won eighty four games and who cares,
We're still going to win the World Series. They carried
that attitude a long way, in a good way. I mean,
I'm not denigrating the team that I had with the

(02:01):
Cubs won the World Series and sixteen. I think we
were considered at that time the youngest team ever to
win the World Series. I don't know if that's still
true or not, but yeah, there was a lot of
the inexperience showed up, and then I just Like I said,
the real of all the Montgomery and then of the
position players of Texas kind of took over. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
I want to get back to what you mentioned about
the youthfulness of Arizona in a second, because it's an
important point and there is a theme there or a
thread with your sixteen Cubs team.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
But let me start with this Joe Game two.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Everybody got excited about how Arizona was playing this small
ball style of game, right, putting bunts down, running first
the third, stealing bags.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Listen. I love to see that style of play. I'm
glad it's back in the game.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
But I have to say this, You're not winning a
championship playing that way. I think it's what it is
is it's a compliment to having power. You need all
kinds of avenues to win a game. If that is
your only avenue to win a game, it's going to
be really, really difficult. I thought the praise of small
ball went way overboard. Let me give you some numbers here.

(03:09):
Arizona out hit Texas in this series two seventy to
two eighteen. Arizona had more hits in Texas and the
World Series forty seven to thirty eight, not even close
so far. Stolen bases not close Arizona seven to one,
sacrifice hits Arizona five to nothing. Runners in scoring position

(03:34):
both at bats and hits, Arizona had the advantage of
there too.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
They lost the.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Series in five games. Why simple as this, folks. Texas
out homereed Arizona eight to three. That's what changes a game.
And I'm sorry nobody wants to hear this. We all
want to fall in love with small ball, and again
I'm saying I love it too, but you're not winning
the World Series if you can't slug the baseball.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
You need both. So that's my take on it.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Joe.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
I mean, I'm interested to hear your take. I know
you're like me. You like to see guys move the ball.
I love having speed back.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
In the game.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
No one's saying that we want to go back to
three true outcomes. We're not saying that. But Texas won
this World Series with one stolen base and no sacrifice hits,
and they had nine fewer base hits overall than the
Arizona Diamondbacks, and they won this series quickly in five games.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, I want it all. I want to be able
to do all those different things that to me still
the right way to build a team. There's going to
be nice that you do outslug the other team, and
there's going to be times when the other team's pitching
is so good and maybe for a series whatever, that
you'd really just they're not throwing you home runs. I
still believe that pitchers throw home runs more than hitters
hit them. So I like the idea that you're able

(04:51):
to do all these different things, move the ball when
it's necessary, creat a run when it's necessary. And again,
you're talking about different parts of the batting order normally,
and when it comes to the power and the hitting
and slug and all that kind of good stuff, primarily
it should be coming from maybe your first six. And
I've talked about that first seven guys the American League
line up that I've always loved. And then there's gonna

(05:11):
be some guys in that lineup, but just aren't that guy.
They're not that capable of hitting the ball out of
the ballpark with any consistency when they try, kind of
screws up, screw them up for days or weeks at
a time. So I like the idea there's going to
be a part of the batting order that you need
to be more creative with, and there's a part of
the batting go to you just leave them alone. So
I think that's kind of I've always been there, you know,

(05:31):
the top part of the batting order, whether it was
the Cubs with Fowler and KB and Rizzo and Zo
in the World Series in twenty sixteen, I think Addison
Russell might hit fifth or sixth in that lineup, but
he had some serious pop, as he demonstrated. So you
leave like guys like that alone normally. But the bottom
part of the batting order, normally for me, where you're
going to mess around a little bit, and that's where

(05:53):
I like to be able to be creative. As a
National league manager. When the rules were National league, it
was important to be able to do those different kind
of things. I think as the rules of today is
probably somewhat less important. But final point, again, I just
can't over remphasize not everybody in your lineup is capable
of doing those things, and if they're not, you really
want to be able to utilize their abilities as much

(06:16):
as you possibly can and scratch out runs at the
bottom by utilizing different methods.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, that's well said.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
I think that blend you're talking about is really important
because you're not always going to hit home runs.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
You can't rely on that.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
But in the same token, the flip side is you
can't always just single and bunt your way to a
world championship. And I'll take you back to to me
a key point in Game five, third inning, and Corbyn Carrol,
the leadoff hitter, leads off with the four with the
base hit. First pitch, base hit, and kit Tell Marte
walks on four pitches, first and second, nobody out. Nathan
Valdi has already walked three guys. I mean, it's clear

(06:52):
that he's just trying to still get his feet on
the ground here, first and second, nobody out, zero zero game.
The number three hitter for Arizona is Gabriel Moronino. As
soon as he was talking to the plate, I looked up,
does this guy have any sacrifice buns during the season?

Speaker 2 (07:08):
The answer is no.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
And the fact that I looked that up anticipating a
bunt there, to me, that's not a good sign for
the Arizona Diamondbacks. That's your number three hitter, and I
understand the importance. And I talked to Tory Leavello about
this before the game. Super important to get the first
point on the board in an elimination game.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
I get that.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
That's the and it turns out Moreno did this on
his own, by the way, because they did talk about
emphasizing scoring the first point of the game. Your number
three hitter, with your season on the line, bunts in
the third inning, moving up the runners. The next batter
is your cleanup hitter, Christian Walker, who doesn't move to baseball.
He strikes out Tommy Famm. Your five hitter grounds out,

(07:50):
opportunity gone. Give me your take on that, Joe, I
didn't like the bunt by Moreno.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
He's hitting third, he didn't have a great series.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
I get that, But if anything, it spoke to me
about the fact that Harry's it just doesn't have enough
thump in their lineup. If they're asking their number three
hitter to bunt in the third inning, like.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
I think, you set it up pretty well. I think
the fact that they had talked about it before the
game kind of Marino kind of went rogue right there
and just try to do what he thought was the
best interest of the team. And you can't always rely
on that because when you give these really passionate speeches
before the game. These players are going to take it
to another level during the game, and I want to
just please I try to do the right thing. So

(08:31):
I'm always wary of that. I've had it. I've had
it with players in the past too, where they'll come
up in situation you're struggling a little bit to score runs.
Maybe things have been talked about before the game, and
then your player comes up and eat buns in a
situation you absolutely wanted them to swing the bat, and
you have to have that talk with them afterwards. So
I always think you should work with the disclaimer whenever
you have that kind of fire and brimstone speech. Listen. Yeah,

(08:53):
but listen, Marno, when you come up to the plate
right here, I'm not talking to you. I want you
to swing the bat. As an example. So, yeah, I
was surprised, but not surprised of them any sense at all.
The other part about it is, and it's always the
outcome biased. Who knows he could have been into a
double play, could have been the ground ball and short,
and all of a sudden there's two out. You wish
he had bun it. I mean, that's how the game works,

(09:15):
it's not always going to be You're not always always
going to get the desired results you wanted because the
other one had happened. I understand that. But just from
purely from a strategical perspective, yes, I want him to
swing the bat right there. Again, be careful when you
have these meetings before the game with players that really
aren't experienced. And I'll tell you, for a matter of fact,

(09:35):
even those that are, I've had it with like veteran
players that have come up and bun in a moment
like that that I absolutely wanted them to swing the bat.
And again, in the conversation ensued afterwards, last point, the
twenty sixteen playoff against Dodgers in LA, we were like
dead in the water. We couldn't hit, we couldn't do anything.
That turned around on a bunt. That whole series turned

(09:57):
around on a bunt. Ben zoebers Unilatity went up there
and just popped the perfect, perfect little bunt for a
base done the third baseline, and got the floodgates open afterwards.
So there's so many different ways to look at this.
And again, I want my guys to be able to
do everything, but within a lineup. You guys hit homers.
You guys hit the ball in the gap. You guys

(10:18):
will be more creative with you guys run, but you
just can't do the one size fits all. And again,
be careful what you wish for and be careful how
you present it.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, that's well said, and I agree with Toy before
the game that it was important for Arizona to get
out on board first, and he did anticipate a pitcher's
duel Evaldi against Zach. Gallon's exactly what we got in
that game, at least through six innings.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
So the idea was good.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
But you're right, I think for a young player especially,
and I'm sure players have done this with you, Joe,
and I remember Martin Maldonado did this during a game
of the Alcs, where you go up to one of
the coaches or the manager and say, hey, what about
a bunt if we're in this situation, you know, just
to get that feedback because otherwise, like you said, I thought,

(11:04):
it is planted in your head before the game, and
you just you're wedded too much to that thought that's
been emphasized before the game and not reacting to the
game situation.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
But listen again with home runs.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
You know, we all want diversity of styles again, but
I got to tell you this is now eight straight
years that if you didn't finish in the top thirteen
basically the first half in Major League Baseball and the
number of home runs hit, you are not winning the
World Series. Arizona was twenty second in home runs. The
last team that was below average home runs to win

(11:41):
the World Series was a twenty fifteen Kansas City Royals.
The game is so different than it was in twenty fifteen.
I do think it's too hard Joe to win games
now because basically, you know, pitching is so good, it's
hard to throw together multi hit rallies. You better have
that maybe one or two swings in the course of
a game that's going to change the scoreboard. In Texas

(12:02):
seemed to hit all their home runs with guys on base.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
That's another key component. But you talk about the fifteen Royals,
that was like the true definition of a lockdown bullpen.
You talk about choreography. I mean, all they had to
do in the sixth inning, this guy, seventh inning, that
guy eighth inating, that guy ninetheendty that guy. So they
were playing a five inn a game to get ahead.
That's what they were just trying to do, and they did.
And again, sometimes when you have that kind of and

(12:27):
I was going to reference that, that kind of pitching,
you can be a little bit more aware of just
trying to play for a point now and then, or
just trying to grab that lead because they're not hitting
home runs against. These guys are six seven to eight
to nineth INNY pitchers, So it really does a lot
of that depends. I think the small ball stuff does
depend on how good you're pitching and how good your

(12:48):
defense is. Listen, I always want to know who's undemound
for them, who's undemound for us. I want to know
what the state of my team is right now. I
just know the psychological where they at right now, just mentally,
how they how they acting, how they what kind of
energy do we have when we come to the ballpark.
All this stuff that nobody will ever know about is
so vital regarding like when you're on a winning streak,

(13:12):
we're on a losing streak, how do you guys come
out of this thing. I'm like so in touch with
the feel of the group in the clubhouse and how
that determines the outcome of the game tonight and for
the next maybe five or six days, the next week,
So all these things have to be considered there and
nobody's ever know unless you're in that clubhouse. You're talking

(13:33):
to the players and you have these kind of conversations.
But all these things are important. I want it all,
like I said, I want it all. I want I
want great pitching, I want great bullpen. And why wouldn't you.
I mean, when you get a great balanced team, there's
so many different ways you could win a ballgame, and eventually, eventually, yes,
you're gonna have to have to meet great pitching. I
think a superior bullpen, and I want an offense that

(13:56):
does it all. And yeah, I want to catch the baseball.
So I mean at the end of the year kind
of like that's what the event what the Texas Rangers did.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, you're right, and we can't forget too. That team
was in first place for most of the season. They
had won stretch in August. Everybody, you know this, everything
you had, all your winning teams, you go through a
funk at some point in the season.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Theirs was a little bit longer.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
I think they went ten to twenty at some point
lose the last day of the season to fall into
a fifth seed rather than a division championship. But that,
for the most part was a first place team for
three quarters of the season. That's a good baseball team.
And they did kind of have it all, Joe. I mean,
they did have speed. That's some guys who can run.
They weren't necessarily a base stealing team. Their defense was exceptional.

(14:39):
I think you saw that throughout the World Series. And
anytime you got Bruce Boci, you know, whatever their bullpen is,
they're going to max out.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
On their efficiency, and they certainly did that.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
So yeah, I don't like it when everybody after a
World Series.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Says, hey, this is the way you have to win
a World Series.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Like back in old one the Diamondback said Shilling and Johnson,
it was like, oh, you have to get two big starters.
Well yeah, it helps, but like you said, better be
good across the board to win games in multiple ways.
Pitching in defense obviously the foundation uh diverse offense.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Sure, but I don't think there's one path to win
the World Series.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
And the last point, I mean, you know, we haven't
even talked about personalities and makeup and the group as
a whole, and how do they interact and all these
these these little things that are actually very huge things
that you have to nurture and cultivate during the course
of the year, starting in spring training. I still love
when a GM or a group really pays attention to

(15:34):
makeup and who this guy is and an example, and
I heard your interview with Tommy fam a couple of
days ago. You know why Tommy Fam was so influential
in this team getting as far as they did. And
this is a guy that was kind of a role
player for the for the Mets and then eventually became
a role player somewhat for the Diamondbacks, and it began
with the Cardinals after about seven years in the minor leagues.

(15:57):
But this guy was the most influential guy within the
group because of makeup and how he is and how
he acted in the clubhouse and the workout that he
demonstrate it and all this other stuff answerary stuff that's
hard to evaluate, but it's true. So, uh, I know,
I know Chris Young, and I know see why I
had to pay attention that I know boaches from that ILK. Also, uh,

(16:17):
I listen overriting talent. Yes, I want it. I want
overwriting talent. But also you need the glue guys. We
talked about the glue guys from the beginning of the year,
and that's it has to have a little bit of
all of that stuff in order to survive or or
to be successful play the last game of the year
and win it. I love makeup guys, man, I love
guys that could count on every day. I love guys

(16:37):
that are accountable, that you could talk with them and
you're gonna get you need it straight up and you
can be straight up with them. That's a big part
of having a winning team too. Joe.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
I'm so glad you brought that up, because after this break,
I definitely want to talk about that.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
It's a huge advantage in this.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
World series, make up, experience, character, whatever you want to
call it. The Diamondbacks might have been too young and
believe they're not too fragile to win this world series.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
I'll explain that right after.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
This makeup Joe, you know it when you see it,
and to me, Chris Young and you nail this absolutely
put a premium on makeup. When it came to acquisition

(17:26):
of talent for that Texas Rangers team. Of course, you
want talent begins to it. You need guys who can
play right.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
You don't have. You're not gonna win a World Series
with a bunch of boy scouts on your team. Got
to play. But you think about signing Bruce Boccie.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
As he told Bruce Bocci, who was on his recliner
in Nashville when he called him, I don't want you
to manage this team because I'd loved playing for you
back with the Padres.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
I want you because you can establish a winning culture.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
This team had lost sixth straight losing seasons, had a
terrible record in one run games last year. I believe
there were fifteen and thirty five. They didn't not know
how to win. Bruce Boch knows how to get that done.
He goes and gets Mike Maddox has been a pitching
coach for forty two years. He sits down for a

(18:13):
breakfast with Will Vennible, his Princeton teammate, and says, hey,
how about Nathan Evaldi. Venable was a coach with the
Red Sox, and Venible says, this guy's a big time winner,
He's a leader. And Chris Young says, I need a
leader for my pitching staff. I've got two pillars in
the middle of the infield and Seeger and Simeon. Everybody
follows the way they play. I need a guy like

(18:34):
that in my rotation. That was Nathan Evaldi. Everywhere you
look around. Chris Young. He brought in Dayton Moore and
his old school wisdom. Kansas City Royals. You talked about
the fifteen Royals. The way he built that team. He
brought back a lot of former players, Nick Hunley, Michael Young,
a lot of guys to have input in the way
they ran this team. Every decision he made, I can
tell you he looked into and actually did the research

(18:57):
on the background of these players, so he had the
right group of guys. That Texas team was such a
tough minded team. I saw that. Now I'll flip it
to Arizona.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Your team. Joe started four guys in the World Series
twenty four.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Younger, This Arizona team the first team since your sixteen
Cubs to do that. And I did talk to Zach
Gallon about this, and you're right, Joe, this Arizona team
didn't know the kind of pressure that they were in.
Kind of that youthful naivete if you will. They just
enjoyed the ride. Take a game by game.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
But I saw a team being down with that team
in the clubhouse every day here in the World Series,
that didn't have that sort of experience and tough mindedness
to pull them through spots the way that Texas did.
An example for you when Christian Walker was thrown out
at the plate running through the stop sign there in
Game three, even Tory Lavello said his team let down.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
The air came out of the balloon. I saw it
in that dugout there.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
There was no energy, as Tori said, for three or
four innings when they didn't push runs across in game.
Early in the game, I felt the same thing. It's
one of the quietest dugouts I've ever seen. They respond
to when things go well, but the minute something doesn't
go well, they kind of sit back. There's no one

(20:18):
in that club in that dugout who's rallying the troops.
I suckatel Marte move runners with a productive out in
that game, a zero zero game. He didn't come back
to the dugout on the home plate side. He came
back at the far end of the dugout and there
were very few guys you got up and said, hey,
great job, this is what wins games.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
I was shocked by the reaction.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Really, the only one who's active in that dugout during
the game is the manager, Tory Lavello. I mentioned earlier, Joe,
he has more conversations with players than anybody I've seen,
but I think he needs to You mentioned Tommy fam
He's a DH he's getting ready for a bats. He
does provide spark and energy, and you know, he's so

(21:02):
determined and he worked so hard.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Those are all great qualities.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
But in terms of a glue guy bringing this team together,
I didn't see one there, Joe.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
I really didn't.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
And you know, maybe I'm reading too much into body
language in the course of a game, but I do
think this team needs someone like that going forward because
I love the talent pace. They need, you know, a
Justin Turner, they need a Marcus Simeon, they need a
Dexter Fowler. And if I'm Mike Hayes and the GM,
I'm looking at that putting this team together over the

(21:33):
course of the winter.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
That's a well explained I cannot agree with you more.
And when you just said that experience does matter. That's
kind of what you were talking about there, and it does.
It does. I know from my personal perspective, the fact
that I you mentioned became manager of the Rays, all
the experiences I had before that absolutely mattered. From the
time I drove my car all over Arizona as a

(21:56):
scout in New Mexico and Kansas and Nebraska and Cloriado, etcetera,
all the way up to the point where I get
in a dug out for the first time as a
bench coach for Marcel Then what was that ninety five
ninety six, and then you go all the way through that,
you win a World Series as a bench coach, cry
your eyes out, and then you eventually you get opportunities

(22:16):
to interview for jobs, don't get them, but you grow
from that moments, those moments, and then finally I'm in
a parking lot one day and two thousand and five,
and Andrew Freeman calls me up and asks if I'd
like to be the fourth manager of the Tampa Bay
Devil Rays. At that time, all these experiences matter, man,
And then you go out there and listen, Yeah, you're nervous.

(22:38):
I don't want to use the word scare, But you're
nervous about everything. There's an anxiety component to it, but
you fight through it and eventually you get to the
other side, and when you face difficult moments, you're able
to deal with them much better than if you did
not have all those experiences. At least I believe that.
I know from a personal experience. So guys like this
that just get there so quickly, they need They need

(22:59):
more than just your manager in the corner yelling the
whole game. They do need players within that group. I
know Longa was there too, but I know with the
with the Cubs, you're talking about that group, whether it
was David Ross, David Ross was down on the top
step of a dugout when Addison might have screwed up
on the field. I remember it. I'm saying him because
I saw it. He's walking off the field. Dave would

(23:21):
go and greet him. Then I didn't have to say
anything as he walked off the field, and that Dave
would come back and say, listen, brother, thank you for
doing that. However, just be careful, don't go too hard,
because David had a tendency to do that sometimes. But
I had that, I had him at Montero and Leicester
had all these different guys dexter within the group. They
were able to handle exactly what you're talking about. They

(23:43):
had been there before. They were always calm in the moment.
We could smile, we could laugh in a tough moment,
We could prep in a way that we weren't overly
concerned because we felt like we're gonna win. We knew
we were gonna win. That builds up over time. He
just doesn't happen overnight. So you talked about make up.
I love the word fear the business. I think the

(24:05):
experience matters. And the last point you said something about
things weren't going well, that they were just sitting on
their hands. One of the big topics for me prior
to every playoff series was remember, boys, things are not
going to go well all the time. How we handle
that moment's going to make the difference. And I'm really
a big believer in that, so I wanted that's a

(24:26):
big part of my pre series talk with the boys
playoff wise. I want them to understand that, not like
I'm the voice of doom, but just to understand it.
It's not going to be perfect all the time. And
how we react to these non perfect situations or moments
is going to be the difference speaker. So all those
things are summed up with what you just talked about.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, and it reminded me, Joe, when you talked about
playing the Yankees when you were with the Angels and
you saw that look on their faces right where like, wow,
we got them right. That's kind of the look I
saw after the Walker play where he gets thrown out
at the plate and listen, I talked with Christian about
that thought. It was a difficult read and his mistake

(25:07):
was having a late read or late break because it
was a difficult read. Instead of owning the late break,
he tried to make up for it. He tried too
hard and just went all out thinking he's going to score.
The run comes around the bag. Tony Paris Cheek of
the third base coach. I love third base coaches that
bring the guy around the bag, Joe. I don't like

(25:28):
guys who throw their hands up before they get to
the bag, before the ball is even handled cleanly.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
I think he did the right thing.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
He also got down the line, which I'd love from
a third base coach. You know, give yourself another beat
there to let the play come out and then throw
the stop sign up. In this case, though Walker never
looked up. You know, once he his head's down to
touch the bag, he's got to pick up the coach
at that point because then he would see the stop sign,
would have plenty of time to get back to the bag,

(25:56):
even if he came far around third base because the
throw's going home. That's just a mechanical a mistake of
mechanics there on Walker's part. But it really began with
this decision by Walker that I got a late read.
Now I have to make up for it to try
to score it. But I'm telling you you reminded me
of that with a face on the Yankees after that mistake.

(26:16):
First out that is thrown out at the plate, and
it was a great throw by Garcia, by the way,
I saw that same deflation in Arizona and Tory Lavello,
the manager noticed it. He noticed that that it lasted
for three or four innings in that game that they
just didn't recover. That's what I mean when I talk
about them being fragile. It's not a makeup flaw. It's
just a younger team that when things don't go right

(26:40):
early in the game. It takes them a while to
get their equilibrium again. And I think you saw that
again in Game four, the blowout game where things just
got out of hand.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
You saw a.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Two strike, two out, wild pitch. It bounced off Marino
the heel of the glove. He's a little bit unlucky there, Joe.
I thought he was in position to block. The ball,
hits the heel of glove goes off to the side.
Those daggers. I always hated that. You know, the two out,
two strike wild pitch that puts a run in. You
need to shut the game down right there, Arizona didn't.

(27:12):
Five runs follow Then the next inning, Walker kind of
fumbles a groundball that would have been the second out,
and five runs follow after that. That's what I'm talking
about when I talk about the fragility of the Diamondbacks.
That just, you know, to adjust to something negative happening
early in the game. It took him a while, if
at all, to get to recover from those things.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
That's right. You got to turn the page more quickly
than that. And just regarding the base running play, one
of my main edicts when I do the tour of
the bases as a coach, and we're talking about actually
in this situation would be second to home. He who
hesitates stops. That's the one thing I always wanted the
runners to know that he who hesitates stops. In other words,

(27:53):
if you don't get that good break, that natural movement,
you're just balls hit. I flow right into it. I'm going,
I'm going. But if you hesitate at all, that's a
situation where you really got to be aware of not
trying to get that extra base. And then you talked
about zero outs. There was no outs. I mean, you
don't want to make the first out at home play.
There's no way you want to make the first out
at home play. And I also believe the lateral movement

(28:14):
by Garcia I think may have played into some of
the decision making. Like you said, Tony did a great
job at third base. I agree, he did everything textbook.
And yes, the runner did not pick him up after
he hit the bag. Again, all those things were obvious.
So two things though, to me, you just don't go.
I hesitated, So I stopped at third base unless I

(28:35):
really get away. Because the ball's been booted and no outs,
you just cannot make that first out at.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Home play, and we need to talk about the manager.
Bruce boci by the way, By the way, Tory Levello,
I thought did a great job. I really did. Think
he did everything to get this team that won only
what eighty four games in the regular season into Game
five of a World Series. Just an amazing job. His energy,
his attention to detail just so impressive. I think he

(29:02):
absolutely got the most that he could out of that team.
And that's to me, that's job one of a manager,
you know, and maybe you only have an eighty five
win team or an eighty four win team, but make
sure you get there.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
I think he did that.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
But on the other side, Bruce Bocci, I mean, I
know you've gone up against him, Joe. You're actually the
only manager to beat Bruce Bochi in a postseason series
in his last fifteen postseason series. That is just remarkable
that this guy keeps winning postseason series. Well, I'll give
you my take on Bruce, but I want your take

(29:35):
because you've gone up against him, not just in the
postseason obviously, but in the regular season. What is it
about Bruce Bochie that makes him such a winner?

Speaker 3 (29:44):
He's he's not afraid. I mean, that's you know, there's
a fearlessness factory. He has a method, you know, he
has a game plan. He has a schematic about him,
and that is he's going to match up the bullpen.
That's the primary thing that he does so well. And
I think the teams that he's had, they've done a
nice job of giving him the ying and the yang
out there lefties and rightings people that could back and forth.

(30:05):
You have to stay ahead of that. You have to
stay ahead of that. And we've talked about this and
you brought it up, but part of that is having
a strong enough or deep enough bench that you can
answer the movement with the pitcher with another pinchit or
if it's necessary to just prevent him from always getting
what he wants. It really comes down to that. Really,
you're really trying to prevent that, and of course they're

(30:28):
trying to prevent the same thing from the other side
looking at you. So to me, it was always about
with him the bullpen. It's not you know, lineup construction.
He was very normal. I mean, like he'll stack lefties
like he did there. He had a seeker and then
part of them he had him stacked. He had him
Stack used to stack belt with the Crawford at times. Whatever,
he was never worried about stacking if he has pretty

(30:50):
it was pretty consistent about maintaining the same kind of
a lineup, and his players always know what to expect
and he always showed confidence in them. And I think
that was because he was I kept the front office
at Bay. He didn't have to worry about so much
influence because people are not going to like that. They're
not going to like when you set it up where

(31:10):
there's three lefties. I had three lefties and I had Crawford,
Iwamura and Paenam for a time with the Rays, and
of course I got flack for that, but I thought
it was the right way to set it up in
the beginning, and it actually did pay off. So I
think all these things. Boach is kind of able to
make unilateral decisions. He's very very good at the bullpen.
You have to try to stay in advance of that

(31:33):
and get what you're looking for. I mean, you know
he's going to do this, So can I combat that?
Or am I better off standing with where I'm at
regarding my hitter coming up to the plate right now?
That's where I see the strength. It's his calmness, the
fact that he is a combination of John Wayne and
who else, Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Terminator or something like that.

(31:54):
I mean, he just he's got this president's presence about
him that the players really feed off. If he's straightforward,
he's funny, he's a good dude. But I think his
main intre is in game bullpen management, and you have
to stay with them on that.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, I think we've talked about this.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
I love the line from Tory Leavello that you know,
the rest of us talking about managers, you know, have
access to all these binders and tablets, and you know
you're looking to dugout. It's like the New York Public Library.
There's so much literature and information in there. And he said,
Bruce Bochie is managing off the scoreboard, and if you
watch him in the game, it's true.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
I mean he's got very little accept what's between his ears.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
And you know there's an old line in baseball, the
scoreboard will tell you everything you need to know about
how to play the game. Bruce Bochi, let me throw
some numbers at you. Of course, that's his fourth World
Series championship. He's only the sixth manager with four World
Series title. He's the first to do it with a
second team. When he gets into these games clinching situations,

(32:54):
chance to close out a series, his record is seventeen
and five. It's amazing. If he's in a one run game,
he's going to win that game. His one run game
is now twenty and ten. And if it's a Bullpenn game,
his relievers are twenty one and eleven. These are all
numbers in the postseason, folks, where basically it is a

(33:15):
coin flip. It's hard to win these games. If you're
in the postseason. Have a five hundred record as a manager,
that's pretty darn good. And he's winning about sixty six
percent of the time, almost two thirds of the game.
Last thing I vouched for me Joe before the season.
I always look at teams. I tell people this all
the time. Every year except one since we've gone to

(33:38):
the wild card ninety five. Every year but one, there's
been a team that had a losing record the year
before that winds up in the postseason. So teams turn
around quickly right on average, it's actually two per year.
So every year I look which team is going to
be in the postseason that had a losing record last year.
My first pick was the Texas Rangers, which lost ninety

(34:00):
four games last year. Two things turn around teams more
than anything else. Number one, better run prevention. If you
increase your run production doesn't necessarily equate to turning around
a team. If you decrease your how many runs you allow. Absolutely.
The other thing is changing a manager. Managers do make

(34:21):
a difference. And this is what I wrote about the
Rangers coming into this season. I said, this is a
long shot because of how far they must improve. Remember
we're talking about coming back from ninety four losses. Only
eight of the playoff teams in twenty eight years turned
around from ninety four losses or more.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Well, now you've got nine.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
But with a change in managers, Bruce Boccie a major
upgrade and run prevention Jacob de Gram, Nathan Valdi Andrewheny.
The major's worst record in one run games that is
bound to improve fifteen to thirty five.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
And the ban on shifts. No team saw more.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Of them or was harmed by them more than the
Texas Rangers last year. Then Texas has the right profile
to turn around. Listen, I'm not saying I knew they
were going to win the World Series. It's going way
too far. But they had them as a playoff team,
and one of the big reasons was they found the
right manager, a guy who's got the pedigree, knows how

(35:16):
to win and could get the most out of a team.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
And managers do matter well.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
I mean, I have to agree with that. I mean
I've had some success with the Rays and the Cubs
in both situations, and actually I really thought, just give
a little bit more time the Angels, we could have
gotten that done there too. It does. It's the culture shift,
the philosophical shift. That's the ability to relate to your players,
and of course, if you have had success in the past,

(35:42):
the cachet you've built up, the players are more apt
to listen to you. I've got so many guys coming
into my office, like the first with the Cubbies. Not
so much with the Rays. I was my first gig,
but with the Cubs you get guys coming in. I
just want to talk to you about you know, your philosophy,
what you've done in the past, how were going to
do it, What do you got for me here? And
the same thing absolutely happened a lot with the angel

(36:03):
A guys are coming into my office that first year,
but it was the COVID year. But they the players
do recognize what you've done in the past, and they
just they've they've talked to other players and so thus
that network's out there and guys want to talk to
you and just really try to catch on to what
you which are all about and what you see unfolding,

(36:24):
and really a lot of times it's how do you
see them specifically? So yeah, I do believe that managers
do make a difference a lot, but it has to
be in union lockstep with the front office.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
For instance, see why Chris Young and Boach could not
have been more closely aligned in this situation. It seemed
like the same thing was occurring in Arizona. And that's
why it's important for a GM to be able to
hire his own manager. Uh, that's that's paramount. I mean
I had that with the Rays with Andrew, and I
had it with the Angels with THEO but they did

(36:55):
not have that with the Angels started out with Billy Epfler,
but then then it turned into you know, Perry, and
obviously it was not so all those things matter, and
regarding the setting this thing up properly. Because you do,
you do have to have a close bond, I think
with the front office because things are again, things are
going to go badly, They're not going to go well,

(37:16):
and how to react to those moments. That's the separator
because from the field perspective, you need to have that backing.
From up top, you have to feel it, and from
up top down you have to have this conversation daily.
It's pretty much a daily conversation where you are working
up the same sheet of music with the ability to disagree.
That is very, very important, and I really believe I've

(37:38):
had that and most spots that I've been.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, most important relationship in baseball, no question about it.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
Tory Leavello, Mike Hasen.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
They go back to their days in Boston together, and
I think Tory would tell you he's a better manager
now in his seventh year than he first started out.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
He is a experienced manager.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
And of course Bach and Chris Young go back to
when Chris was pitching for him with the Padres, and
that relationship there is just is wonderful. We're gonna take
a quick break and we'll have some closing thoughts on
that situation. Managers experience what wins in the postseason right
after this. You know, it's interesting Joe with Bruce Bochie,

(38:24):
you know, he wasn't going to come back to any job.
You know, he did tell me that. You know, he
was coaching the France, the French national team, of course,
he was born in France. Preparing for the World Cup
and then WBC and he actually got back into the
dugout for a tournament in Germany, and after being out
of the game for two and a half three years,

(38:44):
he got that itch back and we got back home
state side, back to Nashville, sitting his recliner. That's when
Chris Young called, and I think he feeling that itch
and wanted to be back in the dugout. Chris Young
called at the right time. Now, it didn't end really
well for him with the Giants. By the way, I
didn't think at the time. I remember talking to Boach

(39:04):
a couple of times that year. I didn't think he
was done with baseball that year. I know he said
it was going to be his last year. But you
could tell when someone still has something left in the tank,
and I felt that with Bruce Bochi. And I think
when getting back to what you talked about, Joe, the
relationship between the GM and the manager.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
It wasn't good with far Hans AEDI.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
I mean one of the first games that Bruce Bochie managed,
he's stuck with a left on left pinch hitter because
the pitcher on the mound was having trouble throwing strikes
to lefties and it didn't work out.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
I forget who the batter was.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
I think this is opening day and Farhan come down
and ask him after the game, why are you hitting
the lefty against the lefty? I mean, this is Bruce
Bocci and Boach flat out told me the managing wasn't
as fun in that last year. He kind of lost
that joy because he lost his autonomy to run a game.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Chris Young hires him.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
It's one of the first things that they talked about,
and it was one of the quickest conversations they have.
Bruce Bochi asked, do I have the autonomy to run
the game, and Chris Young fled out told him, listen,
We'll give you all the information that you want, but
the game is yours. And Chris Young has been true
to his word, and Bruce Bochi has thrived doing that.
I look around the game, Joe, I think it's a

(40:15):
lesson for a lot of these general managers. You know,
we've had Dusty Baker, We've had Brian Snicker, We've got
now Bruce Bochie. Experience matters, Allowing guys to run a
game matters. You know, everybody's out there looking for the
next hot shot manager who's never managed before, because you
want to be, you know, classified as a genius that
you identified the next phenom manager.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Great, knock yourself out.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
But I still think having a guy in the dugout
who's been there, done that, with a winning pedigree still
matters in this game. And I think as team, look
around now and then we're in that period now where
you'll see now what five openings around Major League Baseball
being filled in the next couple of weeks. Let's see
how many pay attention to that. You know, people say
baseball is a copycat game. I don't actually believe that.

(41:02):
I mean, in some cases it is, But listen, if
you're looking at the game the last few years and
what wins you know, experience, and it's not just a manager.
I mean, listen, they went now, Chris Young went out
and hired Mike Maddox forty two years as a pitching coach.
Hey he was done with the Cardinals reached out to him.
Mike Haysen reached out to Tory Leavello, reached out to

(41:25):
Brent Strom. When Brent Strom was done with the Astro,
say we want you. He's seventy five years old. He's
as good as any pitching coach in the business. Both
staffs had excellent coaching staffs, a lot of experience. We'll
see if that matters here in this go round of
teams looking for managers and coaches.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Listen, I can, I'd agree with you more on that.
The staff that's really man It's gotten to the point
where groups almost believe that anybody can be a coach
in the big leagues, and I really strongly disagree with that.
And to get back to the experience, the fearlessness that
on a daily basis, the tough conversations, the honest conversations
that are just really you know, for somebody without that

(42:05):
experience having those difficult conversations, it's just not easy. And
from a player's perspective, I believe that if you have
somebody with some cachet and they have that conversation with
you, you're going to be more readily acceptable of it. So
I like the idea of an experienced staff with an
experience manager absolutely, And it's a difference maker, you know,
from a manager's perspective me talking in a dugout, when

(42:28):
you have people that you can honestly walk up to
and ask them their opinion, whether it's during the game,
after the game, before the game, and if you know
this guy has been around and done a few things
and he's very good at this craft of coaching, Wow,
what an advantage that is for you in a group.
And another thing about that, I think it's really well
done when you keep your coaching staff for a period

(42:50):
of time as a group. I think that really benefits
the organization. It absolutely benefits that group of players on
an annual basis, and then it's going to permeate throughout
the rest of the organization. And the final point, I
like it when you promote from within your organization and
guys that have really earned the right from the minor
leagues to get to your big league team. They've done
the time, they've done different things, they've been on different levels,

(43:13):
very jobs, and that to me is the kind of
guy you want there, somebody that's been in house for
a bit, hopefully possibly, if not, then just somebody a
great experience that maybe there's a tie with the manager
or the GM or whomever. Last point, I like when
the manager gets to hire its own coaching staff too.
I think that's important. Finally, with all this stuff you're

(43:33):
talking about, all the information, I'll say it again, the
primary reason for all this analytical information should be a
acquisitional This is the time of the year when, to me,
a really good analytical staff could shine by finding players
that maybe other teams aren't seeking, because you're able to
look under the hood and evaluate strongly items that you

(43:55):
consider important within your group that maybe somebody else is overlooking.
I love it from that. But that was like my
favorite thing when talking to the analysts was that he's
talked about when we got Logan Forsyth. I remember the
conversation when Andrew called me in the winter time in
Long Beach and he says, how do you feel about
Fernando Rodney? And I'm thinking, Wow, I mean, this guy's

(44:16):
like all over the place is probably like between thirty
five and forty I don't even know. We really like him,
and then he goes on to have like the best
year ever, and then Joaquin ben Wi. I like Benny too.
Look what Benny did that year. So that's the genius
of a really good front office is getting the right
guys in the building. I think. Then after that, the
pregame stuff overblown, overplayed. That really is a superstar. When

(44:41):
it comes to defense, there's no question I want you
to tell me exactly where to put my defenders. I'm
not going to argue with that at all. Really, this
goes back to the race. That's where we really did
well and where we really sent it was because like
you talked about run prevention. That was the big thing.
Because we couldn't get the run makers, we could get
the run preventers, and that was a big part of

(45:02):
the ascension of the RAS, and that truly still I
believe is a big part of their DNA. I love
that part about it. So we got all of that
within that and beyond. I do like game planning from
a pitching perspective, game planning. I don't like edicts. I
like game planning. I like it. And again to talk
about Mike Barcelo again, and we've talked about Danny Harron,

(45:24):
a guy that can really break down the opposition and
create nuggets for the for the picture in the meeting,
or the pitchers in a meeting, catcher to hold on
to and then easily transmissive transmit transmittable during the course
of the game from the dugout to the catcher. These
are the kind of things that I think is where
this stuff shines now when it comes down to you, lineups,

(45:48):
bullpen management, all this stuff. I promise you, if you've
done this long enough, if you've been a manager or
coach and a min whatever for forty years, you'll know
how to work your bullpen and you'll understand the matchups
and you'll know what's the best lot to put somebody in.
I'm when to come down to your line if you
have the creativity to know what you're seeing when it
needs to be changed, when it needs to be the same.

(46:09):
Does it he need to be left, right, left right,
or does it need to be right, left, right, right left,
Just important to protect and right and another two rights
man in order to protect the left handed hitter. All
these things you can do. So yes, the analytical part
is really important. It does not need to be part
of the game, and in the sense that when CI
told Boach it's your game, that's the way to do it.

(46:33):
Prior to that, give me as much information as you
possibly can.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up with Boach, especially
you know he's listen.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
I not that anybody is infallible.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
I mean, we all love the second guess, right, but
when Bruce Bochi makes him move late in the game,
I tend to immediately think, all right, he's got his
reasons for doing it. It's probably the right move. I'm
not sure if it'll work out, but he's been that
good for that long, right. So in game number four,
he brings in his closer, jose Leclerk, and he had
him up with the bullpen in a game that was

(47:05):
eleven to five in the ninth inning. And then I
heard people talk about, oh, you don't want to give
the team another look at your closer.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Why get them up.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
You may have them for less the next day, because
that'll be three days in a row. Boloney, he had
a chance to close out a World Series win. You
know how precious those are. You don't mess around with them.
And once you have him up, you're more likely to
get him into the game. It's exactly what Bruce Bochi
did was the safe situation. No, but he wasn't messing

(47:34):
around with a World Series game. And guess what he
knows that Jose Leclerk, this guy of rubber Arm likes
to pitch three days in a row, wasn't going to
be extended where it was going to affect anything about
Game five. And you know what happened in game five.
He didn't need jose Laclerk. And what happened in Game
five is he puts Josh Spores out there. This is
a guy who is dfade by the Dodgers just two

(47:57):
years ago, and that the Rangers picked him up and
under the radar Minor League transaction after he was dfaed.
Now Bruce Bochie brings him into this World Series game
in the seventh inning.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
And guess what he left him in there? Why did
he leave him in there?

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Because he was throwing the ball well the same way
he left Madison Bumgardner in to finish out the fourteen
World Series.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
He's paid attention to what he's looking at. So Josh Spors,
a guy.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Who had one career save, saved the clinching game of
a World Series.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
So now you look at Bruce Bochie's World Championships, how
did they end?

Speaker 1 (48:31):
One was Brian Wilson, one was Sergei o Romo, one
was Madison Bumgardner, and now we have Josh Spors.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
I don't think that was scripted. Joe, he paid attention.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
In game four, he had a chance to close out
the game with his closer, don't mess around with it,
non save situation. Bang puts him in the game game over,
still had him for Game five, didn't need him because
he saw that Josh Spores had the game in hand
and stuck with this kid. I mean that's Bruce Bochie
to me watching him manage those two games.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
Part of the concern with the clerk there too is
if I don't put him in the game THEMB and
have to put him in the game later with a
more stressful situation because maybe he didn't have really a
lot of faith and this other guy that he may
want to put in there, because that happens also where
you try to you try to stretch it or get
through it this way, but you end up eventually having
to warm up this other your guy eventually anyhow, And

(49:19):
he might have had that in the back of his
mind too. So yeah, listen, when you have a chance
to put your foot on the neck in this situation,
you put the foot on the neck. That's that's as
simple as it is. I cannot agree with them more.
And you pointed it out. You have no idea what's
going to happen the next day. You have no idea.
And furthermore, the clerk having the ability easily, the ability
to go three days in a row. That's something that

(49:40):
I've argued with different folks regarding bullpen management. That's why
it's important to talk to and understand each and every
one of your relief pictures talked about Rafael Soriana with
the rays. Rafael comes in my office one day, so
also I listen, I could some days. I feel better
or worse on the second day, but I feel great

(50:02):
on the third day. So I pitches one night. Next
day it comes in not so good. But the assumption
is you've only pitched one one day in a row,
so let's get them two days in a row. Here.
So then you say no, you can't pitch on the
third day. Say if I come in here and I
tell you I'm good on the third day, I'm good.
So we did it. We did it without any any
problem whatsoever. We had a great year for the race.
So it's so important. All these nobody's the same. They

(50:25):
treat everybody though they're the same. They're the same China doll,
they're not. Everybody's created differently. Pay attention to them, talk
to them, watch them. And I know this year with
the Chappie the second time two days in row, I
guess was not as fruitful, but who knows. It could
be an anomaly. The guy still throw one hundred miles
an hour, but he's he've been pitching for a while.
Just know your guys, talk to your guys, pay attention,

(50:47):
and then make determinations on an individual basis and not
as a group.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Well said, just to wrap things up, the Rangers are
world champions because they were the better team. I thought
Evan Carter really lengthened their lineup. That kid is and
we'll talk about this on future podcast, Joe. He really
remind me of young Don Mattingly with speed, This you know,
slope shouldered kid that just he covers everything, great idea
of the strike zone. I mean, he just murdered fastballs,

(51:14):
especially that entire Series. I mean, that's a twenty one
year old kid who was in the minor leagues in July,
who's hitting third in your lineup in the World Series.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
Just amazing tough mindedness of that team.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
You know, Adulas Garcia and Max Schurzer get hurt and
they go out there and they they're up ten to
nothing three incs into the next game, score eleven runs.
Nothing bothered this team, eleven and oh on the road
in the postseason. I'm not sure if we'll ever see
that again. That is hard to do, folks. Eleven and
oh when they score first, they never let a game

(51:48):
get away. So deeper lineup, tough minded team, veteran manager.
That's that's your Texas Rangers, a team that flat out
earned this in the postseason.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
That sounds like a template to follow there if you
want to if you want to try to replicate of
those that did not win this year. It sounds simple,
but not as easy to put together. A lot of
it has to come down to how your worldview as
a baseball executive and what you perceive to be important.
And again it's going to be a lot of that's
based on who you surround yourself with and the kind

(52:22):
of information until you get on a daily basis, and
that's what you're going to follow. I understand that, of
course revenue, how much money do I have to spend allocate?
How many wrong decisions can we make? How much money
can we afford to make a wrong decision with Also
that matters a lot.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
So that matters a lot. Hey, I'm glad you said,
by the way, the player is centric.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
You know when I think about Chris Young, by the way,
he's only the third person ever to win a World
Series as a player and as an executive the Overleaf pitcher,
Johnny Murphy with the Yankees, and then one of the
sixty nine title with the Mets and stay Unusual. Wow,
actually want to title as a GM of the Cardinals

(53:03):
the only three I didn't know that to play and
when in World Series ring and then as an executive
And it was a player centric operation that Chris Young ran.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
We'll see if that catches on. And we've talked about
this before.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
I told you he told all his analytics guys, I
don't want you in the clubhouse, in the lunch room,
in the weight room unless you have specific business to do.
That's their space and Chris Young told me, he said,
I think I scared those guys because that one of
the first laws I laid down in spring training. He
just didn't want them hanging around literally their space. So

(53:38):
that player centric worldview from Chris Young. We'll see if
that catches on. But that was not a small thing
and why the Rangers won as well.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
I totally agree with that. That's exactly right. That's what
I'd been talking about all along. And again, people have
to understand this. I want you want the best analytical
group money can buy within your organization, absolutely, and it
starts right now November. Acquisition or what are we going
to get in CS. I need to know where to
set my defenders. I need to know where I want

(54:08):
to pitch some people. And then otherwise, if there's some
really cool nuggets, let me hear about it. But I
understand there's a lot of stuff there that any real
baseball guy that's been doing it for a while, he
could set a lineup, like I said, he could run
a bullpen, he could do all those different things if
he's been doing it long enough. We don't need as
much inteler information there as some people may think. So

(54:30):
that's where this group shines, and I've had great relationships
with my analytical staffs everywhere I've been. I've enjoyed the conversation.
I've learned a lot. I learned a lot, and I
started with Andrew. Andrew taught me a lot. Andrew was
all over my butt early on for not matching up
my bullpen more often, but I just didn't see the
point because the bullpen wasn't that good, and I was
just trying to go with how I perceived to be

(54:51):
the better guy at that time, whether he's right or
left handed, and then you go, we get further along
and then we had better options. And he began in
two thousand and eight with j Ap Howell and Grant
Balfour being middle any closers, and that really open my
eyes to a lot about the middle part of the game,
and also the part where you don't have to wait
to bring somebody in the game. If it's a high

(55:12):
leverage situation, you get the right guy in the moment
and don't worry about the next couple innings because hopefully
they'll take care of themselves. So I learned a lot
from manager and feel in a group in Chicago's same
thing and then eventually there was some really good analytical
dudes in Anaheim. Also, just like I said, the point
is know where you belong and how to distribute disseminate

(55:35):
this information. And when that's done properly with the right
kind of method, like see why employed there, you're gonna
have a real unified group. And that's what you want.
You want a unified group top to bottom. You want
the staff, the coaching staff manager to really be in
lockstep with this analytical group. And in order to do that,
you have to really set some boundaries like you just

(55:57):
talked about, and when you do do that, you're going
to get something that works really well, just i e.
The Texas Strangers in twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Last thing for me, Joe, I know the television ratings
weren't great.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
I think that was expected going in Listen, you had
two surprise teams, and you know, the star power, if
you will, was not off the charts, and not just
in baseball, but in society now we're more a star
and celebrity driven than ever before, and people are just
not warming up to cute little narratives like you know,

(56:29):
coming from two years ago losing more than one hundred games,
and going to the World Series as both teams did.
I get that, But on a personal level, I can
tell you it was a pleasure dealing with both of
these teams. I mean the front offices, the managers, to
the players, the way they accommodated us, the way they
made themselves available in game interviews.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
You know, Tory Lebelo doing that with me each and
every game.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
It was funny that one game, when they were down
ten to nothing, I took a pass, a hard pass.
I'm talking to the manager at that point in game,
and Tory complimented me the next day from my court awareness,
that was interesting. But yeah, it's just on a personal level,
I'll have to thank both these teams. The pr staffs
were just amazing. Just from a logistical and cooperation point

(57:18):
of view. These teams were off the charts, and you know,
despite ratings, I think it was a good show for baseball.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Listen, we always want seven games, but think about this.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
This was the first World Series played under these new rules,
the first World Series played with a pitch timer, and
how often did you hear the pitch timer mentioned? Almost
never it succeeded, It faded into the background. We had
our first World Series game after thirty seven straight games
going three hours or more, that was played under three hours.

(57:51):
I think the pace was good and the best part
was it did fade into the background. It did not
affect play or players whatsoever. So this new world order
that we have with the pitch timer, folks, it's established.
I know there's a lot of rumlings, Hey, you got
to give these players more time in the postseason.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
No you don't. It's a good thing.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
There's no reason to go back from where we are
right now. We continue to move forward. So ratings aside,
I thought it was a good showcase for Major League
Baseball and sort of this new generation that we're entering.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
Now that's a good point. I mean, I do love
the pace clock. I think that's the superstar. Like I've
said before, I think that's awesome. And then the assistant
to the superstar pace clock would be the PitchCom device.
Those two items, to me are the real winners with
all of this. I know stolen bases are up based
on the number of throw overs the first base, I

(58:44):
think my opinion, but the pace of the game being
what it is right now, I would take away that
the throwover rule of the first base. I would eliminate
that you already got the bigger bases. You've already constructed
a method to bring the time of the game down
towards more palatable and we all agree with that. Let's

(59:04):
just let the runner at first the pitcher to be
able to control the runner first space like he normally
had in the past. And I'm still still not a
fan of the three reliever rule, three hitter rule for
the relievers, and you talk about matching up, it makes
it much more difficult. And that also speaks or screams
to the offseason acquisition pitching wise, getting more neutral relievers

(59:26):
guys they handle both sides of the plate. And eventually
there was no but never really wasn't profound. But runner
at second base, I mean to me, all of these
rules were made I think to impact or effect the
speed or the pace of the game. That's been taken
care of, what the clock and now with the pitch
comp so I would just I would reconsider some of

(59:47):
the other things. That's my opinion.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
I respect that.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
I don't think they're going to change the rules because
they like where it's appen. I respect the opinion, and
as I always like to say, Joe, this is the
most interesting baseball podcast anywhere. You're hearing Joe Madden, three
time manager of the Year, World Series win with the Cubs,
give you an insight on what's going on in the dugout.
I'm down there, literally in the dugout, giving you stuff
behind the scenes. You're not gonna find this stuff anywhere else.

(01:00:12):
So if you stick around with us throughout this postseason here,
we'll probably get on some Texas Rangers here to talk
about their view of their championship.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
You've got the show.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Hey Otani free agency sweepstakes. Who better to talk about
that than one of his managers. Joe Madden will be
all over that and everything else that happens, managerial changes, trades.
For US, seasons not over. It's kind of restarting again
in a new and different way. So in the meantime,
that's a lot to look forward to. But for now,

(01:00:44):
we've got our closer our Josh Spores to close it out,
World Series Edition, Joe.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Madden, what do you got that's got multiple innings today?
But if I'm going to go multiple innings, then I
have to I'll give you two, all right?

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
I love it?

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
Yeah, because I'm like beating my brains out here. I
don't think I've used these yet. I'm I'm pretty sure
i'm not, and if I have, please, but I think
they're made. And I love this from Michael Langelo, the
both art and this one was like one of my paintings.
But a man paints with his brains, not with his hands,
you know. I love that. I mean, whether you talk
about playing the game itself, the fact that you get

(01:01:18):
out of your own head and you just play the
game and you see what's in front of you and
you react to it. So it's all about this strong
mental method that we employ, and that's the difference between
success or non success. And then genius is eternal patience.
And again I really dig on that because you talk
about the organizations like these two getting their butts kicked

(01:01:42):
last year and all of a sudden they find themselves
playing the last game of the year. There's a patient
component to that that you have to really believe in
what you're doing and see it all the way through.
So Michaelangelo, one of my favorites, just to be eighty
nine years of age. Back in the day in a
Renaissance period. God, there wasn't that many great specialist doctors
around it that time. I wonder what he ate and

(01:02:03):
he's always walking up and down scaffolds. That had to
be good for his health too.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Yeah, when you mentioned that patience there, it kind of
blew me away. After the game, I spoke with Mike
Maddox on the field. This is a guy who's been
in professional baseball for forty two years and this was
the first time he won the World Series, and I
asked him what it meant to him, and he literally
got choked up and he got very emotional about it.

(01:02:29):
This is as experienced and hard bitten a professional pitching
coaches he'll ever find.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
There's nothing like it, Joe. You've been there. You know
what it feels like to work your whole life to
get there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Some never get there, some get there and don't win,
and the very lucky ones get there and actually win it.
And you have felt it. I saw it in the
eyes of Mike Mannix. I saw Marcus Simeon crying in
the arms of his father after the game. There's nothing
like it, folks. I mean, we get to watch it
every year, but those who actually participate in there and

(01:03:02):
come out on the right side of it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
It's just nothing like it. And I'm sure, Joe, it's
a feeling that never ends.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
May all your surrealisms come true. That's what you just
talked about. It's nothing like it. I tried like a
baby too. Every time it's two winters, one loser. But
it's so emotional and all the work you put in
through your entire life to get there you think about
in a nanosecond and it's very powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Congratulations Texas Rangers, your twenty twenty three World Series champions.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Well earned, guys, and thanks to you, Joe. This has
been fun.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Nicely done Tommy, Thanks Budy. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
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