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May 29, 2024 56 mins

In this episode of 'The Book of Joe Podcast', Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci note a third of the season is gone and it's time to shift into gear!  Craig Counsell gets booed in his return to Milwaukee and the Dodgers have lost 5 straight.  Joe gives his thoughts on beleaguered umpire Angel Hernandez retiring from the game. Who are the best and worst umps behind the plate?  Plus, Joe notes the passing of Bill Walton and his unique personality through the years. 

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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey there, welcome back to the Book of Joe.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe,
we actually got on the other side of Memorial Day.
That means we are one third of the way through
the baseball season.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Imagine that, right, I mean, and the thing I always
felt in a baseball season would always start out slowly.
Spring training was slow time. At the end of spring training,
slow time at the beginning of the season, slow time.
You get a couple of rainouts, they give you days
off that you don't need, all that kind of stuff.
It was slow time. Then all of a sudden, man,

(00:50):
it'll just like shift gears. It goes first to second,
the third, fourth, before you know, you're in fifth, sixth gear,
and it goes it goes fast, and so that's what's happening.
It's going to keep going more quickly, and all of
a sudden, you before you know, it's going to be
September and it's October. But it's weird. It goes from
slow time to fast time like the snap of the fingers.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, it was Sparky Anderson who used to say it
takes sixty games to really know what you have in
terms of separating contenders from pretenders. First month of the
season is always a little bit sketchy a lot of times,
weather gets involved, off days, whatever. Two months now, I
think we know pretty much where the good teams are
and maybe the surprise teams like the Kansas City Royals

(01:35):
and Cleveland Guardians. We're going to get into some of
those teams, and what's happening with the Atlanta Braves with
Ronald Ucunya out as well.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
But Joe, I know one of.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Your favorite subjects besides rock and roll and classic rock
I'm talking about and cars is umpires. We're going to
get into umpires later on, but first I got to
ask you about Craig Council going back to Milwaukee. Remember,
he was a free agent after last season with Milwaukee,

(02:05):
signed a huge deal with the Chicago Cubs. He goes
back to Milwaukee for the first time as Cubs manager
on Memorial Day and he gets booed. I mean, come on,
first of all, the day that he signed with the Cubs,
somebody defaced a sign with profanity Craig Council field at
a little league field in his hometown of Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin.

(02:28):
Come on, people, and it was probably just one person
who did it, but that's just awful. And then booing
the guy because I guess he had the audacity to
take a better deal from a team that valued him
more than the Milwaukee Brewers. You know, listen, I thought
it was wrong. I thought the Brewers did the right thing.
They had a video tribute to Counts on the board.
But for the fans to boo Craig Counsel and I

(02:50):
know a lot of times these days, Joe fans think
it's cool to boo, like, isn't that funny We're going
to boot somebody? And he played a type cast, so
to speak. But this is Milwaukee. It's Craig Counsel who
seemingly every year had this low revenue team fighting for
a playoffs spot and in the playoffs, and he gets
booed for what reason. I don't get it. Not a

(03:12):
good job by the Milwaukee fan base.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah, it gets built up over probably a week or
ten days, or maybe a little bit longer than that.
A lot of it has to do with social media
and media in general, where people that can't make up
their minds for themselves decidled this will be fun, it'll
be cool to boo this guy, and then he gains momentum,
and all of a sudden, here comes the day and
they boo him. I went through something similar, but I

(03:38):
did not have that kind of a fan base when
I left Tampa Bay to go to the Cubs. Going
back to Tampa Bay, I don't think I remember getting booed.
I don't remember that specifically. It's just becoming more and
more prominent. Everybody needs to be booed, everybody needs to
be fired where things don't go well. It's the garnering
of a momentum. And I really do believe social media
has a lot to do with this, because a lot

(03:59):
of people just can't think for themselves anywhere. They have
to be part of group think. We're at that point
now where everything deserves retribution in some way. I cannot
disagree with that more. But yeah, I think there's a
momentum gain. There's this swell that starts picking up speed
when somebody will put that out there and then somebody

(04:20):
thinks it's cool, and then somebody else thinks it's cool.
Only because we cannot think for ourselves.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Anymore, and Joe, you went through this, as you mentioned,
leaving Tampa Bay for the Cubs, and you understand personally
it takes free agency for a manager to really be
valued and true value, right, You need bidders, and in
this case, the Milwaukee Brewers had plenty of opportunities to
sign Craig Council to an extension, and then after the

(04:46):
season they came in with an offer at about five
and a half million dollars a year, which is good money,
but it's true value as a guy who gets the
most out of his teams was found out when the
Chicago Cubs said we'll give you eight million a year.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Folks, that's not even close.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
You're not supposed to stay in a place just because
you've been there, and when another team values you by
so much more, and listen, I applaud Craig Counsel Joe,
because I think he realized. I'm not sure if it
was part of his plan. I do think deep down
he preferred to stay in Milwaukee. Let's face it, that's
his hometown. His dad worked for the Brewers for years
and years and years. That's where his history at home is.

(05:24):
So all things being equal, yeah, I think he wanted
to stay in Milwaukee.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
He wasn't like I got to get out of this place.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
But when another team comes around and offers you so
much more, and they're telling you we value more than
your current team, I don't have a problem with the
guy leaving, and in fact, I applaud him for what
he's done for managers by raising the bar, because I
think in general, managers are criminally underpaid. And I say
that in quotes because let's face it, they're all doing

(05:49):
pretty well, but in this scheme of Major League Baseball
and what they're paying some of the players, I'm talking
about the back end of the roster. Yeah, I think
Crek Counsel needed to push the envelope for managers, and
I applaud the way he did it, and he obviously
it does not deserve to be booed.

Speaker 3 (06:05):
No, you represent your organization at least twice a day
via the media, just talking about the pregame press conference,
the postgame press conference, and then all the other little
vignettes that you do during the course of the day
when you show up to the ballpark, so you are
the face of the franchise, is always your star player
in a sense. But then Again, nobody speaks on behalf

(06:28):
of your franchise, whether the manager does. The GM doesn't
do that, definitely not. The owner doesn't do that. There's
nobody within the group that's asked to explain good or
bad what's going on daily. It's almost like the press
secretary for the presidents. Really, I've often thought about that,
what's the difference. A lot of times you're on your left,
your own devices. You will talk to somebody upstairs about

(06:51):
something that may appear to be more controversial, just to
make sure that you're not stepping on any toes because
what that can happen. And then all of a sudden,
after you've done something you thought was completely innocent, you're
going to get a phone call where somebody's going to
come down to speak with you. So there's all of
that that has to be Nobody even thinks about that,
the idea of the fact that you have to sit
there every day and answer some difficult questions because when

(07:14):
things aren't going well, man, it's hard to really sit
there and remain composed, give them straightforward answers. Them being
the media, and again you're defending, You're constantly defending, I
could say defending when things aren't going well, then there's
the chance to play offense, which is always fun. When
things are going well, then you could be more on

(07:35):
the offensive side of the ball. When things aren't going well,
you're always playing defense with your feet. With your feet,
move your feet. That's how this thing works. So yeah,
there's so many hours in the day. This the representation.
Then you look at with college coaches are able to
garner and you go wow. And a lot of them
are football coaches that where they coach eight or ten

(07:56):
games a year. Now they have to answer to alumni
and they got to go out there and do a
lot of public appearances. I get it. But major League
Baseball managers make several appearances on a daily basis and
represent and manage two hundred games a year including spring training.
If you get to that last game of the year,
and when there's a lot going on here, man that
people don't understand unless you've actually worked the job.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I started
out in an era where speaking to the manager, you'd
have the beat writers to get together just hanging out
on chairs and couches in the office before the game
and then after the games kind of the same kind
of thing. It was not a formal setup as they
do with typically in a press conference room. Like you said,

(08:39):
it's analogous to the White House briefing room, right, Yeah,
so there's a formality to it, and the managers now
for the most part, are giving you the same corporate
speak that you're getting from the front office because you
have to tread carefully, right, because there is this we
lost the casualness of just talking baseball with the manager.

(08:59):
So I think that's created almost this robotic system where managers,
as you say, Joe, don't want to step on anybody's toes.
And that's why I'm happy when some managers give you
just this gleam of honesty.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
We talked about Ron Washington.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
And the squeeze play with Luis Guillorme andsh just saying
flat out and he's correct, He's got to.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Get the ball down, simple as that.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
And he was accused of quote unquote throwing him under
the bus, which is ridiculous. We had another case recently
here with Pedro Graffoll with the Chicago White Sox. They
were playing the Baltimore Orioles. They got no hit for
seven innings, wound up losing the game, and after the game,
Pedro said the team's effort was effing flat, and again
he gets called out for throwing his team under the bus,

(09:46):
and obviously the media then goes to the players and
the players have to respond to that. There was a
team meeting after the game and the players basically said, hey,
we don't agree, but that's his opinion. Kudos to Pedri
graffoll I have no problem with the guy saying the
team was flat.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Maybe they were. Managers should know his own team and
your ego if you're a major league player, to me,
should not be bruised Joe.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
If the manager says you were flat and calls you
out on that, I wish it was.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Done more often. So the next day, this is great.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
The next day Pedro when the media talks to him
for the pregame press conference, as you mentioned, Pedro says,
I'm doubling down on what I said. I thought we
were flat, and that's where I'm going to leave it.
I love that, So kudos to Pedro. And listen to
Chicago White Sox. This is unbelievable. They're fifteen and forty.

(10:34):
It is the worst start in the history of the
Chicago White Sox franchise. So yes, there's definitely some frustration,
and by the way, they went out and lost to
Toronto five to one the next day. But again, we
shouldn't be we'ren't a business and the journalism business, Joe
of seeking answers and looking for honesty, and when someone

(10:54):
says something that is honestly the way that they feel,
we shouldn't call them out and reprimand them for quote
unquote throwing somebody under the bus.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
I thought I liked him, now I love him. I
didn't realize he doubled down the next day. That is
outstanding and that's the way it should be. You know,
you and I have talked about this when I let
the Rays. I was a big Tom Clancy fan and
Clancy's protagonist Jack Ryan was known for speaking the truth,
and there was the time with the with clear and

(11:24):
present danger when he could double down. Not only was
he one of your friends, mister President, he's one of
your best friends. And I would talk to Rick Vaughan.
I knew something controversial would be asked after the game,
and so RB would come in and I'd say, RB,
I'm going Jack Ryan to night Man I'm going Jack Ryan,
we're running right into this thing. You don't run away from,

(11:45):
you run right into it. The moment you start telling
the truth, you know what happens, The controversy goes away.
So my established method, i'd say, from I don't know
two thousand and seven eight, whatever it might have been,
was to go Jack Ryan on him, and that would
be just not only tell him the truth, tell him
the harsh, hard truth. This is exactly what's going on.
And you know you're right. I mean you have to.

(12:06):
As a manager. You have in the back of your
head the player's reaction to and I think, again, I
hope I'm not being redundant. But there's this ally component
to all of this. When you can be critical of somebody,
specifically that person going to look for allies within the clubhouse,
and particularly probably somebody that's not doing well it doesn't
think he's getting played often enough. There's all these kind
of little undercurrent political elements of every clubhouse. So when

(12:30):
you say something as a manager, you know you know
whether you're going to be supported or not. And if
you have a nice clubhouse with a couple veterans that
really know what's going on, you're going to be supported
and they're going to tell these people to shut up.
And then again if you don't when you're kind of
fragmented like the White Sox are right now, there are
no there's no leader within that clubhouse that say, hey,
he's right. You know, we got to get our crap together.

(12:51):
This isn't working or you got to be kidding me,
and we got to respect what the manager says right here,
if you have the right kind of process built up
within the group, and so that's all that is. I mean,
telling the truth, go Jack Ryan on him, say it,
Just say it. When you say the truth like that,
you just have to sum. You have to be prepared
for the consequences that may come to you. But again,

(13:14):
if that was what you believed and that's what you meant,
then there's no reason to worry about it. But know
your clubhouse, know what's going to happen, what's going to
be the aftermath because something like that, Normally with a
good clubhouse, the players would have agreed with that and
try to do something about it.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
I like all those points, Joe, And I think you know,
as a manager, there are times where you can sense
that the team is flat, right. I mean this was
a Sunday afternoon game, you know things aren't going well.
He didn't call out anybody individually. I think it's important
to note that. And I don't have a problem with
if a manager thinks and you know, in the long
season there are times where a team is flat, and

(13:54):
you know, it's players nature not to want to admit
that that happens, but it does. It's human nature. So again,
I don't have a problem. I don't think he had
a motivation like, oh I need to rally the here.
I think kind of pop off after the game. I
think he just noticed something and it bothered him and
maybe it was building.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Yeah. The other thing for me, I always talked about
the lead bulls, and you're at least the eight most
influential players on the team that i'd have been meeting
with in spring training. In advance of that, I would
go to one of these guys, you know. In other words,
as opposed to maybe saying publicly that we were flat today,
I would go to whomever and say, listen, this is unacceptable. Man.

(14:34):
Either have a meeting individually with some guys, or you
need to have a player's only meeting because again I'm
not a team meeting guy, because I think when it
comes from peers, it has a lot more substance and
it's louder and lasts longer. So I would go to
one of the guys that I thought are several and
say listen, or maybe call a little meeting among them
and say this isn't this. We can't do this, guys,
and you got to you got to agree that this

(14:55):
is not right, and I need you to have a
team meeting among yourselves and discuss all this stuff. So
that's that's why I like that. I think when it
comes back to the manager, when the manager has to intervene,
that's pretty much when all else fails. I've always thought,
so you set up these different layers in front of you,
not too necessary to protect you, or you're afraid to sayty,

(15:19):
that's not the point. The point is when it runs
of its own volition, If it runs on its own accord,
it always runs better. When you have to start steering
it from behind. Man that gets it's a yellow dirty
Sometimes you're not always going to get the immediate reaction
you're looking for. You know, you could you could start
roughing some feathers and sometimes you have to. I agree

(15:40):
with that, but I like when it comes from the
group itself, when they could be accountable to each other
and concede. That's absolutely correct. We got to do something
about it, so that would have been my first step.
But I set that up in spring training by having
that meeting and explain it to all the guys that
this is how we're going to do it in the clubhouse.
I'm out of it. I'm not. This is your clubhouse.

(16:01):
This is how we need to run it. And if
I have to get involved, it means everything else that
we've set up has failed. Well.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Expectations were low for the Chicago White Sox that's generally
a younger team, but I mentioned we're one third of
the way through the season. The Dodgers and the Braves
were two teams expected to be among the elite in
the National League. And right now there are some issues
with both Los Angeles and Atlanta and we'll dive into

(16:26):
that right after this.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Welcome Back to the Book of Joe podcast.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
The Dodgers have lost five straight games for the first
time in five years. In their last sixteen, they're seven
to nine and hitting two ten. I mean, listen, Joe.
We know the Dodgers are fine, right, They're going to
be in the postseason. They're going to win the National
League West. No one's panicking about that. But sometimes, Joe,

(17:05):
this team just doesn't work because to me, the lineup
is so top heavy heavy ye that the depth of
the lineup just isn't there. If the big guys don't hit,
there's no other way to win a ballgame, and listen to.
Pitching is really good. But I think lately they've had
serious bullpen issues. You know, the course of a season.

(17:26):
I'm sure you went through this with the sixteen Cubs.
You know, not every team is just going to roll
the whole year. We're at the stage now looking at
the Dodgers where we're seeing their flaws and if you
want to pick a team apart and see where they're
vulnerable in a postseason environment, I think the Dodgers are
showing that to you right now. Lack of depth in
the lineup, lack of depth in the bullpen.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yeah, you're right, And having said all that, you're also right.
I believe that they're going to settle down, they're going
to get back on roll. They're going to look like
they had early on in the season, but I was
I just happened to be looking at that today and
I'm looking at their lineup itself. It really does stin
out pretty drastically towards the ball. There's a lot to
contend with at the top, absolutely there is. But those

(18:09):
guys aren't going to, like I guess, show A's struggling
a little bit right now, so there's going to be
that little bit of a struggle where you're looking for
other people to pick it up. And if after Hernandez
it looked like it really fell off dramatically, so that
will somewhat become mitigated. Some of the guys that are
not doing as well are going to pick it up
a little bit. But that's going to be I think
a constant source of concern all year, the fact that

(18:31):
they have this this real fall off after five. It
looks like but the pitching staff, I mean, Bueller coming back,
they got to get really well there. I don't know.
I haven't been following their bullpen enough to be honest
with you, but I know I know they're going to
do some things there that it's going to make it
more interesting and somebody's going to pick it up I
have a lot of faith in their process there. So

(18:52):
it's a bump in the road. It's not right right now,
but you're right. They're going to win the division, maybe
not run away with it as much as everybody else thought,
but I still think that's forthcoming. But if I had
one situation to address with them, a be somehow to
look into that lineup situation, because it did not it does.
The name's not read really well after five.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah, and you mentioned Tascar Hernandez and even he scares
me in a postseason environment because there's so much swing
and miss there. Game planning, as you know, Joe really
ratches it up in the postseason.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Rotation shortened, bullpen shortened.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
You know, you can get to Taskar Hernandez in a
big spot because there's so much swing and miss there.
So something to keep an eye on with the Dodgers.
And also we talked about Pedro Graffol and how he
responded to you know, his team looking flat on the
field and called him out.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Dave Roberts had a very different reaction.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Now, this is the difference when you have the Dodgers,
you know, sitting in first place, and you're not worried
because you're playing for October. I mentioned they've hit two
ten over the last mile basically three weeks, and his
response was, well, we're not hitting. And when when you're
not hitting, it certainly feels like lifeless. But I know
it's not from lack of care or preparation. But the

(20:09):
bottom line is it's about results, and we're not getting
the results. That's typical Dave Roberts. I mean, he handles
situations so well. I mean there's never an alarm button
that he pushes. And you expect that from Dave Roberts
because he's got a really good team. And you know,
I think Joe as a manager, and you've had bad teams,
you've had good teams. I think a team that's talented,

(20:32):
this talented that's been through it mostly a veteran team,
you can handle it a lot differently than if you
have a young team like Petro Graffall has.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
No question when you have a little bit of pedigree
to fall back on. It's a totally different thought process
from the manager, whether to his group or to the media,
or to the general public, whatever however you want to
describe it. It's completely different. His head on the pillow
at night is totally different than Griffall's. I mean, David's got,

(21:00):
you know, job security. He knows what's going on there,
he's got to and also there's this chemistry among him
and the front office that there's a lot of security
involved in that, and there's a lot of knowing that
this is going to get better. On the other hand,
Griffal doesn't know that. I don't know what his situations
like with his front office. I don't know what it's
like among his coaching staff or even his players. I

(21:21):
have no idea, but there's completely different tact and approach
from David and with Pedro. Now i've heard Pedro speak.
His guy's really sharp, and I remember years Eddie Perez
used to always tell me, take them on my coaching staff,
take them on my coaching staff if I had an opening.
He was pushing him when he was with Kansas City
for years. Then I finally got a chance to hear

(21:42):
him speak, and that's I'm big on that. It's like
John Schneider with the Blue Jays. I like when he talks.
I like what he says and how he says it.
I thought Pedro was really sharp too, and I liked
that also So these guys, just like a Schneider and
a griffall just need time. They need their teams to
become somewhat successful in order for people to believe that
these guys really know what they're talking about. Whereas David

(22:03):
has got obviously by that, so he's it's more easy,
it's easier to handle some difficult situations, things aren't going well.
He has the cachet built up. People are gonna hang
with it longer. And of course his way, his method
of saying it is going to present because David doesn't really,
like you said, he's not going to panic. He's always
got a nice way about him, whether we're having a

(22:23):
glass of wine with him, where he's managing in the
seventh inning. So it's it's just a different time in
each guy's career. It's a different organization, there's a different tools,
and again you're you're you're really subject to who's putting
this thing together as a manager, because the managers don't
put it together. It's not like an NFL team, where
an NFL coach and the staff has a lot to
do with how a team drafts, et cetera. In Major

(22:46):
League Baseball baseball, you don't have any of that. This
you're really at the mercy of people that are the evaluators,
those that are acquiring or accumulating the talent, and how
they see things and how they put it together. And
then you have to pretty much have their vision, the
front office vision work. It's not your vision, it's the
vision of the front office that you are charged with

(23:08):
making this vision work. So there's a difference. So Pedro
and Snyder as an example, I'd love to see these
guys really get their feet on the ground because I
think they can both be very good. I think they're
really bright, and I like the way they communicate, whereas
David's well beyond that.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
That's a great point about the roster too, because I
look at this Dodger team and they've had so much
churn in their bullpen, Joe.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I mean, they keep trying to.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Find and pop some guys and they've been great at
it over the years, in a manner similar to Tampa Bay.
And that's that's not a surprise given Andrew Friedman is
kind of a link between those two franchises, and his
influence remains in Tampa Bay.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
But you know, they they turn up guys you can spin.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
The ball or maybe have a pitch that plays up
with a little bit of help with the track man
and reps Soto and the technology today. But they keep
running bullpen guys through there, and Dave Roberts has guys
basically showing up every day trying to figure out who
they are are what they do. So I understand it
for the Dodgers, they don't have a subtle bullpen right

(24:09):
now that if there was an injury to Evan Phillips,
that has kind of backed everybody up as well. So
it hasn't been easy for Dave Roberts with these guys.
I mean, he had a guy Ramirez coming the other day.
He was defaide a couple of times already by New
York and winds up there, hits a couple of batters
and Dave Roberts has to take a mountain visit just
to get this guy's feet on the ground. He's not
trying to hit anybody, but he's trying to impress the

(24:30):
new manager or the new coaching staff, and there's a lot.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Of handholding has to go on.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
And you know, Joe, as a manager, it's very uncomfortable
to have guys in your bullpen that you're not really
sure what their role is or how they'll respond to
a situation. It takes some time to understand that about
each guy and their heartbeat and how they handle the situation.
So I think Dave has been dealing with that too,
And as you mentioned, that's really a product to the

(24:56):
front office trying to find the right people and the
manager having to go through a learning curve.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
I remember when the year we got Fernando Rodney with
the Rays, and Andrew called me in the off season.
He says, what do you think about Fernando Rodney? Has
it got a great arm, but it's kind of like
the nitro. You never know what nitro glycerin. You never
know what you're gonna get. It's very sensitive. And he says,
our guys really like him. Our staff are you know,
their analytical group really liked him. And sure enough, I

(25:24):
think he had like a point six something ERA that year.
The other guy was Joaquin ben Wa Benny. I always
loved Benny, and then all of a sudden he asked
me about Benny, and I said, I always love Benny,
but you know, I don't know, I haven't seen him
for a bit whatever. So we ended up getting Ben
Watt and Fernando in the same year. I remember coming
out of spring training. I don't even think Benny started

(25:44):
with the big club. I think he started in Triple A.
But the point I'm driving at is it takes you
about a month. It took me about a month to
figure out both of these guys. Where are they, how
do they fit in? What's their consistency, like, how long
as it take them to warm up? How much time
do they need off after they've pitched? What's their waterloo
mark number when they're pitching any games twenty four to

(26:04):
twenty five? I mean, at what point do you know
that things are going to go south with a short
relief pitcher? And that's a really big thing for me.
You know, you get these closers or won any guys
they come in, man, and all of a sudden the
number start get a little bit higher, and if you
want to ride them past twenty five, sometimes bad things
are going to happen. And I've always you know, you
always got to know your guys and understand that in

(26:26):
advance of the moment. So I always thought it took
at least a month to understand my bullpen Now, if
you're constantly bringing new actors in, that's going to take
longer than a month. It's going to take maybe two months,
like you're describing with the Dodgers right now. And so
a team that has an unsettled bullpen, Believe me, there's
nothing worse on a daily basis as a manager, because

(26:46):
for me, that's one of the biggest things I do
every day pregame is a to do my lineup and
then and setting up your lineup based on who you like,
of course and how you want to set them up,
but you're also thinking about pinch hitting and their bullpen
later in the game. And then the other part is
your bullpen versus them and who's the available, who's not,
and how they fit into the pockets. And it became

(27:07):
increasingly more difficult when they went to the three batter
minimum rule because now you're working out of pockets as
opposed to when you had that specialist the Randy Schults
of the world, Chad Bradford's of the world, the one
on one kind of situations that no longer existed. All
that stuff went away. So these are the kind of
things that all these different rules and setups have formulated

(27:28):
but knowing your bullpen takes some time. Man last point
I want to make very quickly too, is I've been
asked recently about closers and like the ideas with the
Mets and how he's been struggling and what would you do,
would you take him out of that roller or not?
And the thing that's this three batter minimum makes diff
more difficult is to get somebody back on their feet
when things are going badly, meaning that if I bring

(27:50):
him in the game, I got it. He has to
face three hitters, even though it's going to you can
see it going sideways quickly. Whereas in the past, if
you're trying to get somebody back on their feet, you
can bring him in with two outs. You can bring
them with two outs and haven't finished that any of course,
that's still part of the landscape. I get it. Or
maybe bring him in with one out and face one hitter, specifically,
get him out, bring somebody else in just to get

(28:12):
him in and get him out, get him up, get
him in, get him out of the game, have him
walk off the field feeling successful and getting his confidence
built up back. Then that's no longer a possibility for
managers in order to get somebody back when they're really
not doing that well.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
That's a great point.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
I'm big on that as well, and I've seen that
as well with young starting pitchers. Don't leave them in
there where they're in a position to leave the field
with their head hanging if they're throwing, well, get them
out earlier rather than later so that they feel good
about themselves and correct. You've seen Brandon Hyde and Baltimore
and now Carlos Mendoza with the Mets with closers that
you need to be backed up to try to get

(28:49):
back on track. Talking about kimberl and Diaz, I like
that approach, and you look for soft landings, and in
Kimberle's case, I thought I did a good job when
there was a three run save opportunity. That's when you
plug Kimberrell back in. Who's the confidence there? So maybe
they're getting him back. Diaz to me just does not
look the same. Stuff wise, It's gonna take some time

(29:12):
after missing all of last year, So I like what
Mendoza has done with him. Joe I mentioned the Braves
another team. I don't want to say they're struggling because
they're not. But the reality is they no longer have
Ronald Acunya Junior, which is a real shame, one of
the most exciting players in the game with another ACL injury.
But the Braves are six games behind the Philadelphia Phillies,

(29:36):
and they have ten games remaining with the Phillies, and
obviously Acunya will not be part of those ten games
they're starting. Pitching has been great even without Spencer Strider,
but looking ahead now at the road for Atlanta, of
course there's no Spencer Strider. There's no Ronald d'acunya Junior.
Can the Braves run down the Philadelphia Phillies without their

(29:58):
best pitcher and without their best everyday player.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
Only if there's a nutrition component with the Phillies too.
I mean, honestly, if they hate to say that, but
if somebody were to get injured there to kind of
level the playing field, you might see that. Otherwise, I
don't think so. I don't think they'll run them down, unless,
of course, it becomes leveled somehow. I mean, I know
the Phillies have lost a couple games on this road
trip whatever, but I watched them often here in Pennsylvania.

(30:24):
I just like the way they play. I like Philadelphia
Philly players. I like the old Philadelphia Philly players. Also,
I know the city's got this checkered pass regarding the
love and hate relationship with all their teams. But tell
you what, you gotta have some thick skin to play
in Philadelphia. And when you're good and you're playing in Philadelphia,
you know, these guys kind of they let it, like

(30:45):
just really fall off their back when things aren't going
well because they're tough guys. They really are. They're different,
and that Philly group is a bunch of tough guys.
I know several of them myself. So they're not going
to come back unless something happens, something dramatic happens, which
I'm not predicting. I'm just saying much prefer them staying healthy.

(31:06):
I think David's done a great job to Brosci there. Again,
Robbie's been perfect because of the way he goes about
his business every day. But I like the makeup of
the group from top to bottom. They support one another.
I saw a video of them the other day at
somebody's kids' birthday party. They were all there. I think
it was that's what it was. But they all showed up,
come on that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen with most teams.

(31:30):
They understand the importance of that kind of support. Day off,
get together, even for an hour or two hours, to
show up and show support for one another. That cannot
be underestimated. So without any kind of significant injury to
that group, I don't think the Braves can catch them.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
I'm glad you brought that up. About the Phillies.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
They are a tough, close knit team, and that can
be a cliche, it's real. In this case, they've been
together for a while, so that helps. It's a team
that definitely fits the vibe of the city. And here's
a quick story for you. Talking to robson the other
day and he mentioned they had an off day in Miami,
and you know off days for baseball players on the road,

(32:10):
they're golden and guys tend to scatter do different things.
In this case, all the position players got together and
they went to the country club where Trey Turner is
a member, and they all played golf, and the pitchers
went to one of the relief pitchers homes the Miami
area and they played board games.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
So the point is they hung out.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
Together even when there was no game scheduled, So that
has the factor into how well they play on the field.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
The fact they care about each other.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, I mean you see that a lot of times.
You know the Thus it was like coaching staff's getting
together a lot of times you have a team staff
dinner the night of an off day. You know that
in advance, you tell you asked your traveling secretary to
set up a good dinner somewhere, and you do, and
you go there. Man, I tell you what, you laugh,
you laugh, You should laugh. You should laugh for about

(33:02):
two hours at lead. So that's a big part of success.
Quite frankly, it is a really big part of success
when the groups come together away from the field. That
matters a lot. That was really important to me. I
loved when, like, say a catcher, but take the pitching
staff or go out with the pitching staff in that

(33:24):
situation too. Too. Again, it's just to furthest the conversation.
As an example, coaching staffs, Man, I've been involved in
a really bad dinner one night where it kind of
got ugly. I was years ago. But then again, we
had this wing place in Pittsburgh that we would go
to every time we got into Pittsburgh after a Sunday
afternoon again, we're playing there on Monday. Red Beers I

(33:46):
think it was called. We would go over to Red
Beers and we would just have beers and wings. Man,
I'm telling you out laugh. It's some funny guys. I
mean Tim Buss spearheaded it. Eric Kinsky was outstanding. A
couple of my socios are funny, funny guys, and you
look forward to it and it would carry you over,
spill over to the next dayge you'd carry on the conversation.

(34:07):
John Malee, John Maylee was great at those events. So
all that stuff was It's important, man. You don't ever
under estimate that everybody wants longer meetings. I want to
make sure that we go out as a group as
often as we possibly can.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Well, that sounds like a Netflix show. I would definitely watch.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Oh brother, it was hysterical. That's hysterical.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Hey, the Brave, as I mentioned, their pitching has been great.
Chris Sale has been amazing, you know, breaking down his stuff.
It's back to where he was competing for cy Young's.
There's no question about that. The only question is, you know,
he hasn't pitched a lot the last five years. You know,
does he maintain this stuff throughout the sixth months and
if you're the Braves, the seventh month, right although Lopez,
same thing, boy, that was a great pick up by

(34:48):
the Braves to put him into the rotation. The stuff
has been there, you know, dialed back on the v low,
the command has been better, and Max Freed lately has
just been lights out. That's a free agent to be
at the end of the year. I've always liked Max
Freed a lot. I'm surprised he has not been locked
up by the Braves by now, which tells me he
probably is pitching somewhere else next year, because when they

(35:09):
like it, they lock you up. And the key for
me Joe with the Braves is Matt Olsen, and especially
with Ronald Cuny Junior out, the power just hasn't been
there so far. This is a guy who put up
MVP numbers last year, you know, more than fifty home runs,
setting a franchise record. His slugging percentage on fastballs is
down almost two hundred points, and which is weird because

(35:32):
when I looked at his expected slugging against fastballs, which
tells you basically how lucky or unlucky he's been. How
hard he's hitting the ball, his expecting slugging is actually
higher this year than it was last year. So it
tells me Matt Olsen is going to be okay here,
that there's going to be some return to the mean,

(35:53):
if you will, in the positive direction. He's a power hitter.
I mean, Matt Olson's got tremendous power. He hits the
ball as high and far as anybody. The levers there
just work really well for Matt Olson. So I think
they're going to be fine again, I probably with six
games to make up on a really good Philadelphia team.
To me, that's a steep climb. But I wouldn't worry

(36:15):
about Matt Olson. And you saw him a lot in
the Oakland days too, Joe, I mean your take on
him and how he's made himself into a premier slugger.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
I think he had one bad year when went off
here with Oakland, as I remember. Otherwise, God, you did
not want to see him coming up. He hits left these,
en Righty's, he hits left these actually really well. You
got several good left hand hitters, Tucker with Houston, Albres
with Houston, and then of course Olson with Atlanta. They
left on left. These guys are really really good. There's

(36:45):
no advantage to be gained. None, Sorry, there's no advantage
to be gained. So if he's not driving the ball,
I'm just curious that this. Is he hurt his hands
at all recently or has risked or anything in the
recent past. Is there anything been anything going on there?

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, nothing like that.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
I mean, like I said, the metrics seem to show
that he's still hitting the ball. The exit velo is
still the same. Just eight home runs for him. That's,
you know, a guy who should be a forty plus
home run guy. He's trailing in that department. Just that
the ball's not flying over the fence.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Well, if there's no injury involved, if there's nothing with
his hands or his wrist, like you said, though, the
numbers indicate that you should be well, it's just something.
Maybe maybe he's made a more concerned effort this year
to just drive the ball more to the parts of
the field. Does he more line drive oriented? Is he
trying to strike out list? I don't know. But if
he's well and he's not too old, he's going to
hit home runs. He's going to do it again. Maybe

(37:37):
the way he hits some balls well into the wind
that has been caught up. Possibly, I don't know. But
the guy's good. He's really good, and he's young enough
and he's not hurt. He'll hit his home runs well.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
I mentioned at the top one of Joe's favorite topics
are umpires, and there was news in the umpiring world
that we must dive into.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
And we'll do that right after this on the book
of Joe Angel Hernandez.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
Just say that name Joe, and boy, you're gonna get
a response from anybody in uniform, especially managers. Angel Hernandez
announced that he's done. He's retiring effective essentially immediately. He's
had some injuries the last couple of years. Obviously, he's
had fights with MLB about the fact that he has

(38:34):
not worked a World Series game in years and years
and years. Didn't think he was being promoted as he
should have. But Angel Hernandez, in his early sixties, is
done as a major league umpire, probably the most controversial
umpire you know. Well, Joe West was in that book too.
He's also no longer an active umpire. But listen, I'm Jared.

(38:55):
I'll say it to you I'll mention the name Angel
Hernandez and you tell me what comes to mind.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
Well, first of all, I liked Angel. I first met
him like one on one. We were with the Angels.
We were playing in Puerto Rico in two thousand and three,
right after the World Series, and he was part of
the group down there, Randy Marsha's group, and I remember
going out one night and ended up in a casino
and you know, dinner and all that kind of good stuff,

(39:21):
and I got to meet him and talk to him
like one on one. Him and his wife really enjoyed
the conversation, so that kind of like started our relationship,
you know, one on one human human away from the
baseball field. Liked it. Now, on the other hand, he
was obviously his judgment was not very good. I don't
whether it was on the basis or at home plate
it was. I don't exactly know why, but it was inconsistent,

(39:45):
There's no question about it. He was often paired with
Joe West, and I always thought that Joe was there
to protect him a lot. Joe takes some of the
heat off of Angel because he could. That was my interpretation.
I didn't think that they were able to choose their
own umpiring crew guys, I don't wouldn't think so. I
remember Joe and Angel always being paired up conversationally. Really

(40:09):
good guy like him a lot umpire wise. I was
always concerned only because it's not just against you. It's like,
you know you're going to get a good or a
good call working in your favor against the other team,
but then again, you know it's going to come back
and bite you too. So the inconsistency was always difficult
to deal with because you just knew it. And more

(40:29):
recently watching you know, videos of bad calls by him,
and you could almost see that the players didn't even respond.
They had been coached before. Listen, you're gonna get some
really bad calls. Don't react. It's gonna be the same
way for both sides, et cetera, et cetera. That's what
I thought I was seeing. And I know there was
a lot of complaints from Angel and his camp regarding

(40:51):
you know, World Series of working at certain times of
the year, but I thought they did a good job
of not permitting it. Now when it gets to you know,
on the basis, his calls could be fixed, but behind
home played it would be tough in a in a
big game, to going into that game that he's gonna
be working to play it be tough, just being honest.
So as a human being, as a guy, I really
enjoyed our conversations. We had some you know, decent lasts

(41:13):
years ago. But as an umpire, that's one thing that
I once it's tenured. Once, once you've been tenured, that's
the one thing I think should be discussed more is
that as an umpire becomes a major league umpire, if
his performance isn't good, why is he unable to be
sent back to the minor leagues. I mean, I understand
unions and everything else, but players can be sent back,

(41:35):
Coaches can be fired, managers can be fired. Umpires cannot.
I mean, those are the kind of things I think
if you put a little bit more pressure on some
guys possibly for the situation that they can be sent back,
if maybe just right down to their physical appearance, their
physical performance, and then you know, the performance regarding balls
and strikes become less than when you had been hired.

(41:57):
I think that's reasonable to think that you have to
be sent back to Triple A and work on some things.
Why not? So those are the kind of things within
the umpire industry i'd like to see addressed. But I'll
defend Angel one on one. I really enjoyed him as
an umpire. A lot of what you had heard was
kind of true. He just wasn't very good behind a plate.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, and Major League Baseball has all that data to
judge these umpires.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Last year, for instance, Angel Hernandez did work ten games
behind the plate. He was the lowest rated umpire in
Major League Baseball. He was missing an average of sixteen
calls a game behind the plate. I mean, it just
it can't happen. But here's what's interesting to me, Joe,
and you mentioned maybe there should be some sort of
review process as guys performance lags. Looking at this year

(42:45):
and so far, looking you know, we're a third a
way through the season. Taking all the umpires who've worked
at least ten games, that's a pretty good rotation through
the league. The five best umpires, I'll give you them
an order in terms of their accuracy, Alan Porter, John Lipka,
Ben May, mac Tosi, and Mark Rippager. Here's their ages

(43:07):
forty six, thirty six, forty two, thirty six, forty three.
That's an average age of forty point six for the
five best umpires calling balls and strikes.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Now we're going to go to the bottom of the list.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Okay, the lowest rate in terms of accuracy, Manny Gonzalez,
Cebe Bunkner, Mark Esterbrook, Hunter wendelstat ages here are forty four,
sixty one, fifty two, forty seven and fifty two. I
left out I should mention Alfonso Marquez was in that group.

(43:44):
Average age of the bottom five fifty one point two.
So the top five average age forty point six, bottom
five average age fifty one point two. And remember I
talked about Angel Hernandez. You know he was in his
early sixties here retiring from MLB. There really is a
split here, you know, the younger generation. First of all,

(44:05):
they have younger eyes, for whatever that's worth. But they've
come up through a system where they've been graded by
this laser technology. They're calling the laser strike zone, not
their quote unquote owned strike zone.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
And I think the way they run a game is
also different.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
The younger umpire you can talk to them. The older
umpire is established. He's got you know, this idea of
that's his game, the game belongs to him, and he'll
run it and adjudicate it the way he sees fit.
I think the younger umpires are a lot less like that.
So that's what I see, Joe. We see that in

(44:43):
postseason assignments, the better rated umpires tend to be the
younger ones. I'm not saying that's across the board, but
I just gave you a quick example of how the
data is showing the younger umpires.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Are grading out better than the older ones.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
No surprise. I've been an Alan Porter fan from the
moment I met the guy. I told one of the
umpire chiefs years ago, go this guy. I love Alan Porter.
You could talk to Alan. I thought he's very good
at what he did. But y'all, he could talk to him.
He didn't lose his mind very quickly, and it was
It was very very obvious to me. Ripping Sure. I'm

(45:18):
a big Rip fan too. A lot of those guys
been may the guys you spoke about, I could easily
see why they're in that top. And like you said,
a consistent threat among them is that you can talk
to these guys. There's not a quick trigger among them.
I agree with that one hundred percent. I can't even
imagine I mean one thing. First of all, I understand
one thing about umpires. You never sit down. Okay, think

(45:40):
about it. You never sit down there in the course
of a nine to any game that's you're standing up
the whole time, whether it's man have played on the bases,
and if you're behind the play, how many squads are
they doing in one game? That's dang. I mean, as
you got older, I mean, when I was sixty, there's
no way I want umpire a game. No way am
I going to get down on that crouch that many
times during the course of a major league game fifty five.

(46:01):
I didn't want fifty I didn't want to do it.
I mean, I get it, I get it, And a
part of it, I'd have to believe is just at
some point, these younger guys are still like chasing their
vocation a bit. They've always wanted to be a major
league umpire, they got a chance to be it, and
now they're still relatively young, and they're out there doing this.
You know, on a major league level, everything's exciting, so

(46:22):
forth and so on, Whereas guys that as you get older,
it's not as easy to garner that same kind of
enthusiasm I don't think to be able to have to
be out there every night. And again, you don't sit down,
you don't take a break, You're there the whole game.
It's got to be tough. I'm sorry, it's got to
be tough. So I get it, and it should be.

(46:43):
That's one part of our game that should be relegated
to a younger group, even to the point, I'll tell
you what I mean, if you wanted to keep older
guys around. Sorry, but okay, have played umpires and have
just guys that are not permitted to work to play
and only work the bases. I know that sounds nuts,
but and you don't want to work guys up by
having them work to play too often, especially again, if

(47:05):
you have a electronic strikes on, it's become moot. But
if we're going to continue the way we are, which
I hope, then you should maybe maybe possibly not permit
certain guys to work the plate, just have them on
the basis. I know that sounds crazy. I don't even
know how you would do something like that, but if
their calls could be fixed. In other words, so that's
another Pandora's box being opened, the can of worms. Whatever

(47:27):
you want to call it, but quite frankly, man, when
you get the lineup umpire assignments before the series begins,
I always wanted to know. I wanted to know. Then
you wanted to know who your pictures were on the
plate day for the umpire coming around, and who that's
going to be. And then you try to match up
low ball picture, high ball pitch or whatever. Is he wide?

(47:48):
Is he narrow? I'm telling you, man, I thought about
that because you knew characteristics of each umpire before they
got behind the plate. You knew that, and of course
you knew your picture and sometimes it became even more
difficult before the game. You just knew you're in for
an argument that night.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Listen. I'm a big fan of umpires. I think they
do an amazing job.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
I don't want to see the robo strikes home because
I have such appreciation for what they do behind the plate.
And I bring up, you know, some of the umpire
ratings here and they're not official, it's just a guideline,
but I brought it up just essentially to underscore the
difference with the younger umpires.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
I think, being trained in this regard, they're really good.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
So it's one aspect of the game, where you know,
I think guys can come in without a lot of
experience and be really good calling balls and strikes. So
it's more about complimenting the younger guys and knocking the
older guys for me, because I have tremendous respect for
all of them, and Joe, I'm glad you mentioned the
fact that just the physical nature, whether you're younger or older,

(48:50):
it's so tough on these guys.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Now.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Think about what catchers are doing with pitch framing, and
I know, Joe, when you were coming up, there was
an emphasis on how to receive the ball, but it's
gone next level now with framing. It's just unbelievable, the
emphasis on presenting a ball to make it look like
a strike, so you've got that sleight of hand going
on behind the plate if you're an umpire. We're seeing
velocity go up every year. The average fastball now ninety

(49:14):
four point one miles per hour. We're seeing more spin
in the game today. The job is tougher than ever.
So I have nothing but respect for these guys and
I want them to continue calling balls and strikes and
not go all automated, because I think we need the
human element in the game, there's no question about it.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
Would I be in favor.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Of the replay system they tried in the minor leagues
or have tried. Yeah, I don't have a problem with
maybe checking two or three calls a game. If it's
bases loaded ninth inning, you know, three to two count,
that's a huge call you want to get right, just
like the calls and the bases. But if it's limited
to very quickly two or three calls a game, I'm
okay with that. But on the whole, you know, these
umpires deserve all of our praise because you know, when

(49:56):
I'm talking about highly rated or lower rated umpires, it's
really not a great difference in their grading when you
look at the percentage they get called right, which is
amazing when you think about the stuff pitchers that bring
into the mound and the way catchers receive the ball.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
I've always said, also, and I agree with you, ours
is the best officiated game. I think it's the most
consistent officiated game of them all. Basketball is impossible. From
what I can see. In football, there could be a
penalty on every play. So I've often thought that, yes,
our umpires are the best of all professional arbiters. I mean,
they just they just are. They're really that good. It's

(50:31):
just when you really start breaking it down, like we're
talking about at some point, man just knowing your own
physical limitations as you get older, which you can and
cannot do. Of course, there were some I mean even
like I'll defend Joe West. Joe West was really good, right,
you know, almost at the very end, Joe West was outstanding,
and you wanted Joe West. I mean there was a
lot of theatrics going on, but you wanted Joe umpiring

(50:52):
big games because you knew it was totally unbiased, and
you knew that he was very good at balls and strikes.
He was really good. He was gonna take charge of
the game. He might once in a while do some
things that upset you, but nevertheless I felt good when
he umpired a game because I thought he was good.
I thought he was good. There's like a and I
guess the biggest thing is about behind the plate when
we start evaluating umpires. I mean, on the basis, you

(51:15):
never really worried about whether a guy was good based
umpire or not. You're always worried whether or not he
was a good plate umpire and that's where the discussions
would come in. So that's I think where MLB's umpiring
has really gotten better. They have, like you said, the
guys that are coming up them and taught in a
way where you know, back then umpire the the standards

(51:36):
and the way umpires were taught because I was around
many of the guys that did that in the minor leagues.
There were the teachers and they got the supervisors. It's different, obviously,
and I think you are they are more precise, and
I agree with that one hundred percent, but it's a tough,
tough job. There's still the best in all of sports
is our game and how it's umpired. But again, as

(51:58):
you get older, man, I don't know why you want
to do it. It's just it's just increasingly more difficult,
and like you're saying, with the add of velocity and
everything else. But last point, catcher's framing. If back then
the umpire has had a lot more cachet with this stuff.
If you're a catcher was pulling pitches the way catchers
pull pitches right, and I promise you you're not going

(52:19):
to get them. They would just tell you to stop
doing it. They would stop doing it. Now you can't
because it's going to be somehow disputed via all the
different technology involved. But if an umpire thought you were
really pulling stuff, you get that in your ear real quick,
don't do it. Stop doing that. And I don't believe

(52:40):
that happens anymore today because it's a part of the landscape.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Real quick.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
As many times as you were ejected Joe Madden, did
Angel Hernandez get you?

Speaker 3 (52:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, Angel got me. I think a couple
of times. There was one really classical one that actually
Joe West got me because it was at that time
when they weren't permitting time out and we're playing in
Toronto and Carlos Pena, I thought called time. I'm well
in advance and Angel's behind the plate and he did

(53:08):
not give the time out. Pitches called a strike and
I went crazy. So I go out there and I
started yelling at Angel and I'm telling and I'm pointing
at Joe West simultaneously because I told Angel, do not
permit him Joe to umpire for you, basically because they
know Joe was really big on that time stuff and
he was in charge of that group, so they're not

(53:31):
going to put up with that. So I went back
and forth with Angel. Then it finally went out to
Joe and I told him. You know, I'm not going
to tell you exactly what I told him, but pretty
much I'm yelling at him for his influence on Angel.
That was stet was my argument. And so I got
kicked out by Joe via a call made by Angel.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
I love it well, the last call always belongs to you,
Joe Madden. So how are you going to take us
out here for this episode of the Book of Joe?

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Yeah, I mean, for me, a real substantial sports figure,
personality athlete passed away, Bill Walton. You know, i'd even
realize he had been that ill with cancer. You know,
growing up as a kid the UCLA group coach Woulden
and what he did Walton when he went up to
eventually Portland, all the injuries he had to put up with,

(54:20):
then eventually how substantial that team became. And then he
goes to Boston any places for the Celtics, and how
about getting coached by coach Woulden and also read Auerbach,
I don't read wasn't the coach, but he was there
and probably the reason why Walton even showed up back there.
Such an incredible talent, wonderful personality, definitely went by the

(54:43):
beat of his own drummer, and I really respect him
for that. How he got caught up with the grateful dead,
and how he lived his life. I mean, a lot
of people probably would not agree with a lot of
the stuff, but quite frankly, it didn't matter to him.
He was definitely following his own intercompass, his own inner
piece and what he thought, And how could you not
like the guy? And as an announcer was very colorful

(55:04):
and entertaining. But I got this thing from Ralph Waldo
Emerson that I think pretty much sums up Bill Walton,
and that is to be yourself in a world that
is constantly trying to make you something else is the
greatest accomplishment. And I think that's what he did. He
was able to remain himself to a lot of different situations,
and I just know, I think I was in his

(55:27):
company one time. But he was such a large personality
and he heard a lot of different things, especially when
he was injured in Portland, from the locals there, but
he stayed with it and he stay true to himself,
and I love that. I love when somebody stays true
to himself. And that's really what made me a big
fan of Bill Walton is how he backed up what

(55:51):
he talked about.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Oh that's an excellent call, Joe, and I never met
the man, but just based on what I've read and
seen heard from Bill Walton, we should all enjoy and
love life as much as he did. That's right, that's right,
Great job, Joe. We'll see you next time on the.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
Book of Joe YouTube brother Thanks.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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