The Book of Joe: The MLB winds of change

The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon begins with offseason moves beginning to happen.  The Cubs hire Craig Counsell and Joe weighs in on the move.  Dusty Baker revealed the obstacles that made him leave baseball.  How do those obstacles affect every manager in MLB?  Plus, what does the hiring of Carlos Mendoza mean for the Mets? Start your MLB offseason right here!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hello again and welcome back to the most interesting podcasts
in baseball. It's The Book of Joe with me, Tom
Barducci and Joe Madden and Joe, I can't wait to

(00:25):
talk to you today because what a story we had.
We had the Chicago Cubs with a manager under contract,
who go out and they sign a free agent manager
and actually get rid of that manager that they had
under contract. If that sounds familiar, Joe, I'm sure it does.

(00:46):
Of course, we're talking about Craig Counsel, free agent manager
hired by the Chicago Cubs who dismissed the incumbent manager,
David Ross. Joe, you went through this as a free
agent with the Rays signed by the Cubs. Rick Renteria
let go in the course of those negotiations. I got
to start just your your quick reaction to the turn

(01:07):
of events with the Cubs.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, nobody saw that one coming, right, I didn't. Nobody did,
wasn't on the radar at all. I thought the Cubbies
were happy with David.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
You know, I know they failed a little bit at
the end.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
But although I thought they'd gotten back into the race,
pretty well, and I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
You never know what goes on in the locker room.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
You don't know what perceptions are like, and you don't
know you know what front officers are talking about. And
again it's surprised. It's just surprise, and yes, been through it.
For me personally, it was both wonderful and not so
wonderful because Rick I didn't know Rent real well at all,
but Buddy blackspoke so highly of him, so you're thinking
about him and his family also, and that means to him,

(01:44):
and of course that's that's hard to take or swallow. However,
on the other side, you have this opportunity to do
something for your family that you wouldn't have a chance
to do otherwise, and finally get a chance to manage
the Cubs in Chicago.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
So there's there's so many different layers to this.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's I'm sure Craig's experiencing all these different emotions right now.
I attempted to reach out to Rick right after that
after it occurred. I did not get to himntil later.
You know, he's probably upset, and I don't I don't
dispute that I would have been also, so tough situation.
I did reach out to ROSSI yesterday. I did text him.
I have not heard back yet, but I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Man. It's it's it's like I said, it's both.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
It's wonderful and horrible for the for the for the
manager getting hired.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, that's well put. It is bittersweet. On the one hand,
you know, the Cubs had an opportunity to get a
manager they consider one of the one or two best
in the game. He was a free agent. You know, listen,
I do think the Cubs liked the job that David
Ross did. I think they were building towards the right place.
You know, eighty three wins. They kind of fell apart

(02:45):
there at the end of the season, but it's kind
of about their level that they should have wound up at.
It's so really, it wasn't a statement about David Ross
other than the fact that we had a chance to
get a manager we think is one of the best
in the game. And you know, listen, you know this,
it's a cold business. You're always looking to upgrade, whether
it's a play or a manager or coach, whatever it is.

(03:06):
He did have a guy under contract that the owner
did come out at the end of the season, said,
David Ross's our guy, But you know what, circumstances change,
and I understand where they're coming from, not just because
it went through a similar thing with you and Rick Bentziia,
but I also have the opinion that Craig Counsel is
one of the best managers in the game. And if

(03:27):
you're the Chicago Cubs, you know, I don't think you
just sit there idly by and say we're going to
let this guy get on the market and go somewhere else.
I think, especially this Joe, to me, the two driving
forces for Craig Counsel to get to free agency, because
remember he did not sign an extension with the Brewers.
They would have been happy to lock him up, you know,

(03:48):
even before this year began. But he wanted to get
to this point of being a free agent for two reasons.
Number one, I think he wanted to reset the market
in terms of financial value of owners in this game,
and we'll talk about that in a minute. And number two,
you know, he's a Midwestern guy. I think in his
heart of hearts, he wanted to be true to those
Midwestern roots. As a college aged son who plays at Minnesota,

(04:12):
another one who plays at Michigan. He has two daughters
in high school. He grew up in Wisconsin. That's who
Greig Council is. He went to college at Notre Dame.
And I know for a fact that the Cubs when
they just kind of you think about these things as
players and managers, eventually get to the free agent market,
you do some questions, you ask around. You know, what

(04:33):
does Creig Council want? What was he looking for? And
it came back to the Cubs that his dream job
has always been the Chicago Cubs. Again, Midwestern guy, big
market cubs, all the history, tradition, So he was a
little bit on their radar, the fact that he's a
Midwestern guy and this fits him. And let's face it,

(04:54):
the Cubs are going to reset the manager's market in
terms of salary, and the Brewers were never going to
do that. So he's worth more to the Cubs than
to the Brewers. I mean, that's the way I say it.
That's the business of baseball.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, yeah, I mean, if you have a chance to
get would you perceive to be a better shortstopper or
relief pitcher or center fielder. Don't you go out and
do that? Even though you already have a shortstop or
a center fielder or a picture that you kind of like,
I mean, not just the way the world works in
our game it is. It's cold, it's very cold. It's
a cold business. So from that perspective, it's easy to

(05:33):
wrap your mind around it and understand it. It's no
different really at the end of the day, you're just
trying to make your team better. That's your job as
the leader of the organization, as a front office person,
whether it's president, a GM whatever, ownership, You're always trying
to make yourself better. And if your hard of hearts
you actually believe this makes you better, how could you
walk away from it? Causes there are some really difficult conversations.

(05:57):
And then to this point, it's been well received regardless
outside of the organization, in the baseball industry in general,
it's been well received for a lot of the reasons
you've already stated. So they knew from the public perspective
they were not going to have a hard time with this,
even though David is a big part of that organization,

(06:19):
World Series hero and I was just a great guy.
So all those things considered, they did what they thought
they had to do to make their team better the
number two salaries. I still don't believe this is necessarily
going to drive up salaries.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
I don't. If it does, it's going.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
To be in a very minute way.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
There might be some uptick here there, but I don't
necessarily see this as doing that.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
I think the way the industry is situated most organizations
are run, they're still going to want to go with
the inexperienced manager like you've seen, excuse me, with both
the Mets and the Guardians right now. They prefer going
that route. I don't think it's going to get to
the point where they stay feel like they're going to
have to pay these guys. I don't think experience is

(07:05):
what floats money the boat of many of these front offices.
They still prefer a controlled commodity. And again, I do
believe that they've gotten to the point where they've gotten
salaries to the level that they wanted to be for
this particular position, and because of that, I think it's
going to remain that way. There's so many guys that
want to become major league managers, and there's so many

(07:28):
front officers that want major league managers that are very
good with the press and that will definitely follow their
routines and pretty much not question it. I think this
is all part of the fabric right now, and that's
why this was the unicorn unique situation with Craig there,
So I don't think it's going to really follow suit
strongly in other places.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, I want to follow up on that because those
are excellent points. But let me finish up on Council
on how he wind up with the Cubs, because a
lot of people thought he would be signed, sealed, and
delivered to the New York Mets. Right David Stearns is
hired as the president of Baseball for the New York Mets.
Worked with Craig Council for seven years. Steve Cohen. We
know he spends money. He's got a star manager out

(08:12):
there as a free agent. It made a lot of
sense on paper, but Craig Counsel to me, was not
going to the New York Mets. I don't think he
wanted New York. If that's his only option, it's a
different story. But again, Midwestern guy, it's not a great
job right now. It's going to pay plumb money, but
it's not a plumb job in terms of where the
Mets are in terms of a rebuild. They finished twenty

(08:33):
nine games behind the Atlanta Braves last year. And you know,
he's leaving a Milwaukee team that's been pretty stable, again,
not a big market team. Do you want to take
on that job with the New York Mets, which has
been a manager killer. The last seven managers who had
that job have not been rehired anywhere else, and they
have not lasted long, by the way, So I don't

(08:55):
think it was the perfect fit people thought. Besides, David
Stearns did not hire Craig Counsel in Milwaukee, does It's
not like they were best buddies. Inherited Craig Council when
he was hired as GM at the Brewers in September
of twenty fifteen. And there is a little bit of
a heavy hand there with David Stearns on analytics in Milwaukee.
I'm not sure Craig Council loved that. Bottom line is,

(09:18):
you know he wasn't going just to New York because
Stearns was there, because they would pay Again, this guy
his dream job is the Chicago Cubs. So what happened, Well,
the Mets actually asked for permission to talk to Stearns
before his contract was up October thirty. First. They had
a jump start on the process. So people heard about that,
they figured, oh, this is going to get done. The

(09:40):
Cubs waited. They made their first call on November first.
That's the first day that Craig Council was a free agent.
They jumped in November first. Now what happens is they
get involved with counsel and listen, it's they're gonna pay
top dollar, They're gonna pay market value, and then some
it's the Midwest. It made a lot of sense. Things

(10:01):
really began to fall apart with the New York Mets,
by the way, people were writing up until the day
this all happened on Monday that you know, it was
down to Greig counseling Carlos Mendoza. He was out with
the Mets days before because he was deep with the
Chicago Cubs, and so a last Sunday, Jed Hoyer, as
he did for Rick Renteria back eight years ago, got

(10:21):
on a plane and flew to talk David Ross in
Tallahassee to tell him what was up because they were
so far down the road. And it did get done
on Monday again, very difficult call or actually, in this case,
conversation for Jed Hoyer to have with David Ross. But
it had to be done. You owe him that face
to face conversation. They did that, So to me, I

(10:42):
give the Cubs a lot of credit by again, and
it is difficult. Don't get me wrong. I love David Ross.
I think he did a great job with the Cubs
this year. But again, you have a team that sought
a chance to upgrade, and Craig Counsel was out there
and I can't blame them, Joe for going out and
getting them, And this is the only way you could
get it done. You know me, face to face with

(11:04):
David Ross and say listen, we still love you, but
we think Craig Counsel is a guy that's a better
fit for us.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Again, it's just an upgrade based on your ability to
decide who's the better fit for us, who's got the
greater talent, who do we want to go with? Right,
all these different things are in play again, not any
different than a player on that team or even a
coach to a certain extent. The thing that you'd mentioned
there that to me is the most interesting, that the
assumption was made that Stearns and Counsel were that close.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
You know, I'm reading. I was following along.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
With this, and you just mentioned it that Stearns never
even hired Counsel in the first place. And again, I
just don't know. You probably know better than I do,
and others do, of course, that how close was that relationship. Actually,
it just sometimes people draw connected dots just based on history,
assuming that this was a warm and fuzzy relationship and everybody,

(12:00):
I agree with everybody on so many different things, and
it is the right thing to do as a slam duck.
Everybody had this as a slam dunk, as you suggested.
So that's the part to me that I'm curious about.
Probably never know, but was there actually that kind of
a closeness in this relationship that would have automatically Stearn's
goes to the mets, here comes Counsel right behind him.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
I'm curious about that.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
And like you said, I mean going to New York
from the Midwest, Wow, I mean, listen, I live here
in Pennsylvania not far from there, and it is it's
quite a leap.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
It's different.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
And like you said, the history of the organization itself
of course, just like going to the Cubs, or even
when with the Rays back in the day, when you
go there and you win, kind of special. Man, It's
kind of special to get that opportunity to be put
in a situation where things have not been good and
you get to go there and all of a sudden
they become good. That's what you know. For me, you
normally look for. That's what I've always found attractive. That's

(12:56):
why when I got the race job, I thought, well,
this is great to me. It was a really basically
an expansion team at that point. It was not an
Establis ten years in existence something like that. I saw
it as an expansion group. And then going to the Cubs,
same thing had been down for so long.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
Of course, some nice guys in.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
The minor league system, you know, THEO was there with Jed,
had some money to spend. So these are the kind
of determinations you have.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
What do you want? What do you want?

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Like you're saying, I think the sensibilities of Craig wanted.
He wanted to stay there in the Midwest. I get it,
and the Notre Dame connection, and of course if in
his past he's always wanted to be the manager of
the Cubs.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
To me, that is the slam dunk and that Trump's
everything else.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, well, listen again, I don't know what's in someone's
heart of hearts, but going into this I didn't think
he was winding up with the New York Mets. For
all those reasons, I think people overstated the connection to Stearns.
I think putting a Midwestern guy with family in the
Midwest in New York in the Mets job didn't make
a lot of sense to me. So listen, he needed

(14:00):
another option, right, I mean, maybe if it's not the Cubs,
does he go back to Milwaukee. Possibly, But it turned
out he had, in his own personal view, the best
of all options, and that was money and the Cubs job,
and he got the two items at the top of
his wish list. Speaking of money, Joe, we're going to
take a quick break and we're going to dive into

(14:20):
the market for managers. Is Craig Council overpaid? Is he underpaid?
We'll dive into those questions right after this. So, Joe,
one of the first things I started to hear when

(14:42):
Craig Council signed five years, forty million dollars with the
Cubs eight million dollars a year. Was that he's overpaid
because quote unquote he's never won anything. I mean, that
is such a simplistic view of the baseball world these days,
when we've had nine different World champions in the last
ten years, and he's done a great job dragging a
Milwaukee team into the postseason virtually every year with some

(15:05):
of the market resources that they have or don't have.
So let's set that aside. The guy didn't win anything.
Let's talk about the money itself, because he now has
eclipsed Joe Torre as the highest annual salary for a manager.
Joe Torre, after he won four championships, was making about
seven and a half million dollars with the Yankees. Folks,
that was twenty years ago. If you pro rate that

(15:28):
money with factory and inflation, that's between thirteen and fourteen
million dollars. So we're talking about a guy eating eight millions,
not even close to what the value as a manager
twenty years ago. And the game really got stagnant there.
And you know this well, Joe. I mean, we're talking
about the analytics age where managers were devalued, and when

(15:50):
you look at not just managers, but coaches as well
as the minimum salary for players was going up forty
two percent since twenty fifteen, now at seven hundred and
twenty thousand dollars a year for a guy who shows
up first first day in the big leagues. Managers are
grossly underpaid. They still are. So, you know, I don't know,
as you said, if Craig Council moves the need for

(16:11):
everybody in the industry, maybe he's a special case because
he was a free agent, because he is regarded so
highly in the game as a not just a guy
who runs a game well, but runs a clubhouse well.
But it was about time that the money that has
flowed into this game, and certainly down to the players
all deserved, should wind up with managers. This to me

(16:32):
is not an overpayment when you think about inflation and
how you know. Listen, last year, according to most reports,
half the managers of baseball were making one point seventy
five million dollars or less. Folks, there's a lot of money.
You don't want to sneeze at that. But in the
world of baseball, when you're talking about players on fringe

(16:54):
contracts up and down, maybe the back end of the
middle bullpen guy back into your position player roster. That's
nothing when you're talking about a guy who is it
is the face of your franchise, who represents your franchise
more than any other person in your organization when you
think about all the time spent in front of cameras
and microphones, that's your manager. So I don't know how

(17:16):
you feel about the money here, Joe, but I certainly
don't think Craig Council is overpaid based on what's happened
in the game and based on how contracts managers have
been stagnant for so long.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, and even just look back into the college ranks
for a lot of this too. I mean, you look
at college coaches, whether it's baseball and even of course
football and basketball, but these guys get paid at a
much higher clip, the better ones do.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
And really, their their.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Schedule to me, I mean a lot of it is
a recruiting component, satisfying alumni, et cetera. But their actual
daily workload I don't think comes close to one hundred
and sixty two games schedule, forty preseason games and eventually
hopefully another handful in the postseason, like up to like
twenty games annually that you're going to be in charge

(18:00):
of and the point is to win outside of maybe
the spring train, and like you said, both pre and
postgame representing your organization, having to talk about everything, including
injuries as an example too, and having to tell them
up to a certain point, which you can without going
over the top with all of your explanation. In a
situation like that, there's always it's the situation. Give them

(18:24):
an answer, don't give them the answer. That's what Gene
Walk told me at one point. But there's all these
little when you're doing these press conferences pre and postgame. Man,
I tell you, it's incredible how you're able to dissect
information as it's going to the back of your brain
before it comes out of your mouth, and you have
to filter to the point where what could I actually
say here? And you're doing this twice a day. For me,

(18:46):
the best way to have done that, which I try
to do, is just say it. That was my Jack
Ryan component. I don't want to get into it deeply
with Jack Ryan, the protagonist in the.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
Tom Clancy novels.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Jack Ryan was the guy that always told the president
straight up and the mister President, don't spin it. Just
tell him not only was your friend and he was
your best friend when he's trying to disarm that situation
and clear and present danger in the Caribbean. So I
think that's the best way to deal with it. But
again back to the Sari issue ONUNS sixty two times
too press conferences. That's minimum. That's minimum. That's not even

(19:19):
counting like the separate moments entities with in game conversations,
pregame special rider will come by, calm, this will come
by for another hit on something, the zoomers that you've done,
all the different things that you do again representing your organization.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
I don't think.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
I don't believe there's another job out there that has
to represent your entire group and actually your fan base
quite frankly, as much and as often as a major
league manager does.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
I don't see it. I just don't see it.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
So yeah, I mean the eight when you when you
look at everything that a major league manager does beyond
running a clubhouse, beyond running the game, beyond having to
ameliorate so many different groups before the game, after the game,
whether it's an analytical department where it's a GM, whether
it's somebody that thinks they should be playing more than

(20:09):
they have been, and they come into bitch about it
in your in your office.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
All these things are happening every day.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
So if you pile it all up, if you add
it all up and look at other comps with this situation,
absolutely eight billion is not out of the question.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Oh Joe, you left out those pesky national TV guys
who come in and have to have their exclusive windows
with the manager.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
I was including that somehow there. I didn't want to.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Uh yeah. And that brings me the very interesting comments
from Dusty Baker that we're on this thread.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Dusty was on a podcast with Charles Barkley Ernie Johnson,
and he mentioned that he could keep doing this job
for another four or five years if he could show
up before the game, run the game, and then go
home and not deal with the pregame in the post game.
As he put it, you're dealing with thirty year olds
and bloggers and tweeters who are all over And according

(21:05):
to Dusty Baker, that influenced his decision to say I'm done.
I'm out, that's it. And he said, you just get
tired of this. I thought it was a very honest,
revealing comment. I know a lot of people sit there
and will say, you know what, that's your job. Just
put up with it, just ignore it, et cetera. But

(21:26):
if you're the major league manager and this is happening
all the time, and especially when you have a resume
like Dusty Baker, I can understand how someone is sensitive
to that.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Now.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
He took a lot of heat this year for a
lot of things, as he always does. For some reason,
for instance, people thought he should be playing yin Air
Diaz behind the plate because you know, Diez got a
nice bat, hit a bunch of home runs, but the
pitchers all loved throwing the Martine Maldonado and Dusty Baker
knew that Diaz wasn't quite ready to be the everyday
catcher because running the game is super important. Hitting twenty

(21:59):
two home runs is nice, but he knows Mountonado was
an edge behind a plate working with his pictures. He
also got some grief for not playing Chas McCormick literally
every day, and there were stories about how that's because
Chas McCormick had put on weight and that's why Dusty
wasn't playing him because he didn't like the player. I mean,
that's just ridiculous that a manager's not going to play
a guy because he doesn't like him. You know, the

(22:20):
manager's job is to win baseball games. You're not going
to spite yourself by sitting a bat you think can
help you win. But anyway, those are sort of the
criticisms he dealt with, and I thought that was an
interesting window for a guy who's had the cachet resume
respect of Dusty Baker to say, you know what, I
could have kept doing this job, but man, the bloggers
and tweeters just wore me out.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Well.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
I got to understand that too, and that's why it's
really important to not read that stuff if you possibly can.
I know it always comes back to you somehow, But
during the season I really try to avoid any kind
of Twitter feeds and blogging. You don't read comments, you
don't read any of that stuff unless unless, and I
was able to do this, I think more towards end,
you could put it in compartmentalize it, Like I understand,

(23:02):
there's an entertainment component of this all, whereas a lot
of this stuff sells the game, whether it's good or
bad from your perspective, because you know what you do,
your players know what you do, your front office should
know what you do, et cetera. But if there's an
entertainment buyer to this also, and a lot of these
different media outlets are really important to put people in
the stands and maybe create controversy. It's no different than

(23:24):
you've heard me talk about at the bar room as
a kid growing up. I sit at bell Hops one
of the stools, and I sit among all these different
grownups and may be arguing whether the Orioles or the Yankees,
or the Phillies or the Pirates, all the teams in
my area will be a great argument discussion. And that
was the latter day Twitter x, Facebook, Instagram. It was

(23:47):
on a barstool. You know, it was much more controlled
obviously in that regard, and not everybody heard everybody's commentary
like we do now. So it's about compartmentalizing and trying
to understand. I think that it is entertainment. There's times
when it gets personal that you know, it's kind of
more difficult. Sometimes if it comes back to you and
it's a kind of a personal attack, that could be

(24:08):
kind of disconcerting and you don't like that at all.
But at the end of the day, if you meaning
the manager who, remember, this is the person that's the
subject of these moments. If you get the support, quite frankly,
from the front office, and when there's anything like really
vitriolic written or stated or stuff that's just not true,

(24:31):
if you get like somebody from above that just hey, listen,
this is not we don't believe this, this is wrong.
Actually attack it in the opposite direction. I think that's
all any kind of manager would really want and respect,
is that you're supported. You're supported from the top, and
that's really important. I think when there's radio silence, people
go crickets in a situation where something may be written

(24:53):
about one particular game, and normally it's a bullpen decision
that's bashed and nobody comes out and says, well, like,
for instance, what happened in Toronto, No listen, Schneider, Johnny
that because we had talked about that before the game
and we all decided this was the right thing to do.
Just say it. Just go Jack Ryan on him, just
say it. Those are the kind of things in today's game,

(25:14):
with the speed of information and the fact that I've
been told this most if you look at most press boxes,
most of the writers are set up there not looking
at the game, but looking at commentary on their different
media platforms in regards to writing their story. These are
the kind of things that you have to how do
you countertack that? Like I said, for me, A really
understand this is about entertainment. We're trying to sell the

(25:36):
game being if it's a personal attack, then that gets
a little bit too far. Just that people that you
work for would somehow try to intervene and set the
record straight, because when you try to do it yourself,
when you try to defend yourself, it always sounds like
an excuse. It's always sounds like you're making up an excuse.
So I always try to refrain from doing that for
that exact reason.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, it reminds me of Joe Torri when he took
the job with the Yankees. I think one of the
best things he did right away is he stopped reading
the newspapers. Back then, it was the newspapers that really
drove the narrative, the talking points. Obviously no social media
back then, so everything's amplified more now. I get that,
But I would definitely wholeheartedly agree with you Joe on

(26:19):
you know, the best thing is don't pay attention, don't
dive into it at all. But you're right, these things
do get back to you, and it's best to compartmentalize
them and understand that you know a heck of a
lot more than these people are putting their opinions out there.
They may be louder, but you have to have confidence
in what you are doing. If you don't, man, it's

(26:40):
going to wear on you. I want to get back
to something you said, Joe about again Counsel and this
being maybe something that changes the landscape for managers. And
you talked about how a lot of these guys who
are hiring managers are comfortable with the younger managers and
obviously you're going to be paid less if it's your
first job. I get that. And I think this hiring

(27:02):
here in New York with the Mets says something about
David Stearns. You know he did reach out for Craig Counsel.
I think he almost had to because of the connection,
because of Steve Cohen. I get that. But then he
moved off Craig Council all the way down to Carlos Mendoza.
And let me start by saying it's not a knock
on Carlos Mendoza. Everything I've heard, everything I've had been
around him as a bench coach with the Yankees. Really

(27:24):
good dude. He could very well do a very good
job with New York. But that's a very different signal
from David Stearns about where he wants to go by
hiring a guy who's never managed above a ball now,
listen to, everybody deserves a chance. I mean, if we
never hired guys for their first jobs, it would just
be completely recycling people. But what I'm saying is with
the Mets job here now, to me, it's a signal

(27:46):
that Stearns wants someone that he's going to have control over.
It's that simple. If you're a show you know this.
If you're a first year manager, yeah, I mean you
don't have the established platform to really fight back much
if that's the right phrase against the front office, especially
in today's world. So he's going to have to grow

(28:07):
into that job, you know, grow his own cachet where
he can say, you know what, this is what I
want to do. I don't see that starting out. That's
a very different type of manager than Craig Counsel. So
he went in a very different direction with Carlos Mendoza.
And think about this too, I think the game's starting
to swing back where experience is starting to be valued more.

(28:28):
I'm going to give you the ages of the last
six managers to manage in the World Series fifty eight,
fifty nine, sixty five, sixty eight, seventy two, seventy three.
There are no forty four year olds in there, folks.
If you want to win a World championship, to me,

(28:50):
I like having experience. So that's my take on it, Joe,
And again, everybody deserves a first job, but if you're
in a market you think you're ready to win something,
it's tough to do it with a guy who's on
his first job. Never above a ball.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
As I ascended through the ranks, minor league ranks, into
the big league ranks as a coach, et cetera, the
one thing I always kept in the back of my
mind is I never wanted anything before it was my
time to have it. Meaning that I I to be
a major league manager for me was so sacred and
I felt like I really truly had to be prepared.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
I did.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
I definitely wasn't prepared as a forty year old. I
never played in the big leagues as a forty year old.
I was just getting there as a major league coach
as a or was I a bullpen coach and I
was a first base coach of bench coach, et cetera.
But as I moved through this whole process and they
did interviews, I did interviews with the Angels with Stony,
when Sosh got it, I interviewed, I think interviewed. Yeah,

(29:46):
I interviewed when Terry Calls got it with Billy Vivesi too.
Then I interviewed with the Red Sox, an interviewed with
the Diamondbacks, and interviewed with Seattle. Again with Billy Vivasi
and Seattle. But I always had this concern and am
I ready for this? I mean, and is it my
time to do this? Do I feel like complete? Do
I feel complete in my abilities to handle a myriad
of situations, whether it's you know, running the game, whether

(30:08):
it's having a conversation, whether it's enduring long losing streaks,
being smashed like you said, possibly publicly, am I ready
for this? And so I always thought I never wanted
anything before. Was my time to have something? And I
think that's why possibly I was successful even I was
like fifty one fifty two when I got my first

(30:29):
major league job, because I had done everything and I
was ready for that moment based on the life baseball,
life's experience that I had to that point. The guys
today that are taking a job, it's to me like, wow, Okay,
do you really believe you're ready to do this? And
if they do, God bless them, because I didn't feel
like I was ready at that juncture, with the limited
experience and that particular age and the lack of wisdom

(30:52):
whatever you want to call it. I just did not
as a self evaluator, I did not want to put
myself out there without having all this cachet of a background,
uh information, history, whatever it takes in order to be
successful in this position.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
So that that part always amazes.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Me too when like like like voter and I love
Stephen vote, Steve would vote. I hope makes a great manager.
We had a great time together. He does a great
impression to me. He used to do in spring training.
I used to laugh my butt off, man, But the
guy's never done it before. So these kind of leaps
of faith, where where do you where do you believe
that you are able to handle a job like this

(31:31):
if you've never done it before. So because to me,
kind of minimizes the importance of what a major league
manager does by the fact that you never managed anywhere.
Booty hadn't done that, I don't think, and David actually.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
Had not done that.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
And now you know, voters stepping into that same realm.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
Why is that?

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Why did people consider that okay? Whereas I know for years, man,
it wasn't okay. And I needed to suffer a little
bit more. I needed to learn a little bit more.
I needed to make more mistakes. I needed to understand
what I thought better. I needed to be able to
handle situations in a way that I felt comfortable with
and I felt I was doing the right thing. So
all these things are factors to me when I see

(32:11):
all these kind of hirings. I never wanted to have
anything before. Was my time to have it based on
having earned it and experience.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, listen, we all know what's happened where the balance
of power in baseball came. It's really shifted from the
dugout to the front office in terms of not just
player evaluation and acquisition, but how games are played and won.
And lost and decision making. We get that. So if
you're a general manager of this new generation, you're going

(32:41):
to hire someone who is, let's face it, not going
to challenge you. If you hire Bruce Bochi to be
the manager, as Chris Young did, you're going to respect
his decision and his ability to challenge your thinking. If
you hire a first year manager who's never managed above
class A ball, that gentleman is not going to challenge

(33:04):
you when it comes to process and systems. He may disagree,
but he's not gonna go rogue and say, no, we're
not doing that. I'm gonna leave my starter in third
time around the lineup, or I'm gonna use this guy
a third day. That's not happening. So Joe to me,
that's the safe route for these guys who are running
teams is calling them yes, man is too far, but

(33:28):
who are basically new to that position, who are not
comfortable yet to say to a GM or president of
baseball ops, no, this is the way I'm doing it.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, it's totally far and from the past. I mean,
we've talked about this. There was a time literally that
gms were never seen in a clubhouse. I don't want
to use the word afraid, but they were intimidated, some
of them by coming into a clubhouse. The manager normally
was the manager normally did, and I also thought they
had too much power at one point, I did the

(33:57):
manager kind of ran everything. He was the facto GM
or president, whatever you wanted to call it, because he
set the tone for actually player player evaluation and player acquisition.
A lot of time they would go to the gym
and say, listen, we need we need this position, and
we like this guy.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
We want you to go get so.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
And so I heard the conversations and it actually did occur.
So that's how it used to be back in the Y,
and I'm saying that wasn't right. I even knew that
as a young coach manager, I knew that wasn't the
right way to do because I knew that all we
knew was how this player looked in spring training. We
did not know how we looked during the season, and
we definitely didn't know what he looked like against other
teams except for us. So I thought there was a

(34:36):
lot of faulty intel going on with that kind.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
Of acquisitional process.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
So, yeah, there was a time that the manager had
too much jack, and then it's gone to the point
where it's exactly the opposite right now.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
But again, I.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
For me, it's an earned, earned position, and you're supposed
to go from first grade through twelfth and then you
go for your undergraduate degree, then you go for your
you degree. They become a doctorate at some point, and that,
to me is what a major league manager should be.
Is like he's got this complete, full background. And I'm

(35:13):
here to tell you. I mean, I'm not breaking on myself,
but I started out and the most important thing I
ever did, I think as a that eventually helped me
become a major league manager. With a scout, as a
full time scout, that's never even done anymore. Go out,
look at a young player and see what he looks
like before he becomes so and so and so and so,
when he becomes a household name. What do you look

(35:34):
like before he became a household name. These are the
kind of things that aren't asked of these these people anymore.
And that to me was so viable because I could speak.
When I look at a guy, I could break him
down as a player. I break them down, just think
he did with Timmy Salmon I did with Corey Snyder,
while these Keith, Joinner, all these different dudes, you break

(35:55):
them down, That to me was the part of my
foundation that I consider the most valuable.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
And nobody ever talks about that anymore.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
So what happens to David Ross, what happens to Milwaukee,
San Diego, the Angels. We'll dive into what's next in
the manager's business right after this. All right, Joe, you

(36:26):
mentioned Steven Vote. I think he's going to be a
good manager. Is he going to be great right away?
I mean, who knows. But I like a lot of
the qualities he has shown as a player and a coach.
He's very relatable, He's got a great sense of humor,
connects with people. As a former catcher, I think that's
important because he understands the pitching side of the game

(36:47):
as well as the run production side of the game.
To me, he's got all the qualities to be a
really good major league manager. How long that takes, we'll
see that. I did like that higher as far as
the Brewers go, here's what I was told that they
were going to meet today with Pat Murphy, the bench
coach for Craig Council. Doesn't mean they're going to hand

(37:08):
him the job, but if they want to stay in
house and again a cheaper alternative, he's there for them.
Obviously he knows the talent on hand. He also has
an offer to join Craig Counsel with the Cub staff,
so there's that as well. It's not a slam dunk,
there's only thirty jobs, but maybe based on where these
teams are in the winning curve, the Cubs is a

(37:29):
better place right now than the Brewers, who I think
probably going to trade Corbyn Burns and Willia Domis and
start the rebuild. Remember, Brandon Woodruff is not available next
year because of shoulder surgery, so we'll see what happens
there in Milwaukee. David Ross, it could be an option

(37:50):
for the Brewers, There's no question about it. If you
want to take away the sting of losing a homegrown
Craig Council, the greatest manager in Brewers' history, you bring
in a name manager. You bring in David Ross or
the other name I heard was Don Maddingly. That would
be a way to sort of appease your fan base
and not just go with someone who is not known

(38:11):
Padres and Angels. Padres apparently are looking at David Ross.
I think that would be a good fit. I think again, though,
that's a team that isn't going in the opposite direction
of the Cubs comes on the upswing. Padres are going
to be cutting payroll, They'll be cutting trading mon Soto.
Not a great job in terms of timing, but generally
a good job overall. The Angels, who knows the most

(38:33):
difficult team to predict in baseball. They've talked to Benji Gill,
They've talked to Ray Montgomery, they talked to Buck show Walter.
Don't think there's a clear favorite right there, but who knows.
Maybe David Ross. I haven't heard his name with the
Angels yet, but maybe he's another option there. I would
think they're going to stay in house, But as I said,
the Angels unpredictable. A lot to unpack there. Give me

(38:56):
your thoughts, Joe on how things are playing out right now?

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Yeah, well, you covered it pretty well right there. I
just hadn't even thought about the the future of the
Brewers was an example, but you know, tit for tat
would be a great sign. With David going over there,
they make with how many ever times they play each
other those games. This would be rather interesting just based
on that. Uh, there are there are some absolutely good,

(39:19):
good qualified people there.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
I like Donnie maddingly a lot. I do.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
I like this guy treated me so well in different moments.
And beyond that, I mean, he's he's a good baseball guy.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
But yeah, by the way, Joe, I thought he would
have been a really good option for the New York Mets.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah, no, no question. He could handle that stuff really well.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
He's he's a he's an easy rider man, and he's
a great communicator, just a good dude.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
So yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Gonna be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
I mean, heck, we couldn't see that Gray Council Craig
Counsel was going to go to the Cubs, So how
we're going to figure out who's going to go somewhere else?
The Angel job? To me, I think Buck is a
front runner. And I'll just tell you why. I think
Buck's got a good shot there based on his relationship
with Perry Menasien from in the past in Texas, because
I had, you know, many conversations with Perry and he

(40:07):
always spoke really well of Buck so and I actually
think that'd be a good fit if Buck in fact
wanted to do something like that. The big thing there
is just to make sure that they get the support
they need from the front office without our ownership, without
a whole lot of interference. That be exactly what they need,
and just some some infrastructure improvements kind of things. But
the other stuff, I just don't know be interested in

(40:28):
seal shakes. I agree, you're going to see guys that
they're going to be able to get there, maybe for
less money, Guys with the lack of experience, just like
we've been talking about the whole time. That's that's just
where the industry is, and that's why I'm really reticent.
I don't believe that the eight million by by Craig
is going to really make a huge impact anywhere else.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
I think it's going to be status quo throughout. I
think they're going to continue to hire the non experienced manager.
I don't think that the front officers really are interested
in a whole lot of experience, regardless of what happened
this year with Boach and everybody else. It's it's the
way it's been established, They've they've been able to keep
the salaries and check, and they've also been able to

(41:06):
re establish their control of.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
The situation, like I said, because in the past it
was all about the manager.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
So I don't think there's going many huge surprises, quite frankly,
but I think it's going to be more or less
guys with less experience as opposed to guys with more
experience being hired right now.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
And finally, let's circle back to Craig Counsel, because I
think today, if you're a Cubs fan, you have to
be thrilled, and again you have to feel for David Ross.
Don't get me wrong, part of Joe's World Championship team
in twenty sixteen. I think he was doing a really
good job as a manager. But now you just had
your Cubs team set a new bar. As far as

(41:43):
salaries for managers. You don't do that. You don't pay
manager eight million dollars without consolidating that investment in player personnel.
So you're going to see the payroll increase. It just
doesn't make sense to hire the highest paid manager in
baseball then try to save some nickels and dimes in
the roster. So you have to like the signaling right

(42:04):
there if you're a Cubs fan. And oh, by the way,
you got a guy in the dugout to me, that
can influence outcomes of games, maybe more than anybody in
baseball right now. And I know that sounds like a lot,
but if you look at Craig Counsel's track record, the
guy has one of the two or three best records
in history in one run games. I know a lot

(42:25):
of people say one run games, well, it's fungibol. Year
after year, it can go up, it can go down,
it as a matter of luck. Well, every year, this
guy wins one run games at a rate that's among
the very best in baseball. I'm talking every single year.
He's great at managing bullpens. He doesn't wear out relievers,
but at the same time he uses them effectively. And

(42:47):
often he's very aggressive running a game. I mean he
will pinchhit for a guy in the fourth or fifth
any if he thinks the opportunity is there. This guy
does not saved his powder for later in the game.
And I love the fact that he goes out and
a seasons a game when it's there to be seized.
He's fearless, and that's what Pat Murphy told me once
about Craig Counsel. I asked him what makes him such
a good manager, and his answer was, he doesn't care.

(43:11):
He doesn't manage to cover his butt for the questions
that are coming after the game. If he sees something
that's the right thing to do, he's going to do it.
He's got an edge to him. At the same time,
he's very relatable to the players. So I think if
you're a Cubs fan, Joey, you gotta be happy right
now that you have the highest paid manager in baseball.
The payroll is going to increase, and he's gonna win

(43:31):
you some games that you probably shouldn't win just because
he's that good of manager.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Yeah, that's the.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Only way to managers in a fearless situation, a method
and to not be concerned about some of the tougher
questions you may have to answer after the game. I
know Murph really well too. I knew Murph when he
was at Arizona State also, so that was a really
nice union that they had there. So it would not
surprise me that he might might actually go to the
Cubs with Craig as opposedest thing as a manager with

(43:58):
the Brewers. I would bet he's going to get paid
almost the same as being a coach with the Cubs
as opposed to the manager with the Brewers. So I'd
be curious about that, but yeah, that's the way to
do it. One run games. He's had good bullpens. I
mean that's part of it too. I mean he had
hater the kid Williams, and he's had some really good
end of the game relief pitchers. He has the thing

(44:20):
that I've liked about their conception. I thought they were
like the Latter Day Rays. They're really good on defense.
They set their defenses really well. That was one of
the reasons why they beat us with the Cubs later
on when I was there, is because their positioning was
so good. I was really impressed with that from them.
I thought they were outstanding with that. They had the

(44:41):
Ing and the Yang, they had the lefty and the right.
They did legitimately create some platoon advantages. They took some
guys that had not been great anywhere else are not
so good. Citizen Kane Renze Kine love him. Renzo Kane
was one of the better players over the last ten years.
And nobody talks about this guy was a driving force.
He definitely he could be the glue guy with that

(45:04):
particular team. I loved them for that they had him.
And then when they picked up Shaw from the from
the Red Sox, nobody thought anything of him. And all
of a sudden he takes off. And then Thames comes
back over from what Korea where he came from?

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Uh, and then all of a sudden he takes off.
The catchers. They've done a nice job with their catchers.
They've done a nice job acquisitionally putting it together, while
they developed some really good starting and relief pitching. They've
they've they've been the race. They've been the northern version
of the race. That's how I've seen them. And now
Maddie Arnold's there, and Maddy grew up with the Rays also.
I don't know to the extent that what Stearns had done,

(45:39):
and I don't know how much influence he had as
much influence as Maddy Arnold may have had. I don't know,
but they are the Latter Day Rays and that's how
I see them. And so the way Craig managed them
was perfect. To be fearless, to push it if they
they had guys we could.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Run, they ran. They they didn't.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
They did not run because it was not cool to
run or get thrown out. They ran because they could
steal bases. They pushed it hard, and like I said,
came to me on one of the most underappreciated players
of the last decade, and they're Bullpenn. They've always had
legitimate closers.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
A great point about their defense as well positioning. They
tend to have younger teams, more athletic, and Craig Counsel
is going to have a superior defensive club with the
Chicago Cubs, so you'll see more of that style they
need to go out and I think gets some more
swing and miss arms on that pitching staff. But the
Cubs are going to be good next year, there's no question.

(46:30):
And we'll see how active they are. I think they'll
be very active this winter. Joey You has slipped in
something there about Pat Murphy and you know what he
might be paid. The difference between coaching managing not that
big as long as we're talking about salaries for staff,
how about coaches man I was talking to a coach
the other day who said it is amazing how underpaid

(46:52):
coaches are. They work more than ever before. Now, there's
no question about that. And his point was, you know,
if it's it's like an organization asks people who they
have in their employ who wants to be a major
league coach for one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. Well,
there's a lot of people in the lower miners who
are or maybe just that hired out of a college

(47:13):
system or you know, an analysts somewhere. Their hands are
gonna shoot up. I can be a major league baseball
I don't care what they pay me. That's get me in.
And if you're a former player, this guy's point was,
there's no way you're taking that job because actually, when
you factor in, especially if you're in a big market,
the cost of living, expenses, and the amount of hours

(47:34):
you put in, you wind up actually breaking. Even if
you're lucky, you're working for free. So that's the difference.
I think the rewards system, Joe is allowing people who
have never been in major league baseball to get into
major league baseball, and it's closing out the people who
have been in major league baseball. There's really something wrong
with that system there. And if you look at some

(47:56):
of the great coaching staffs, with the Braves, the Rangers,
the Diamondbacks, you see a bunch of former major leaguers
sprinkled in there, but often you see any you know,
very few, if any major leaguers, because the pay is
so poor based on what they're asking these guys to do.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
You're right, I mean it's a break even situation.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
My first year, the first couple years as a major
league coach for me in the mid nineties, I losing money.
I mean, living in two different places, you get no
rais whatsoever. There's no idea, they don't carry any costs
with the you know, paying for a place to live,
et cetera. At that time anyway, So I'm literally actually
losing money by becoming a major league coach. There's no question,
and you're right. Today, I would say it's a break

(48:33):
even situation. And just to take it to another level,
I think they should make coaches should make a major
league minimum. Whatever major league player's minimum salary is, that's
what your coach should be able to make. If not that,
at least something close to it. There should be some
kind of major league coaching salary minimum number that everybody

(48:53):
at least gets.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
I think that would be appropriate.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
But the problem is it's viewed as though anybody can
do it, Like you're talking about, there's not a whole
lot of from the perspective of up top two below,
like the impact that a coach could make. I'm always
wanted impactful coaches. I want guys that I really want
to be able to turn loose, empower them, let them
go do their jobs, and they're going to make an impact.
I mean, of course, Kevin Long, there is a great

(49:17):
example of that right now. You talk about Maddox going
to the Rangers, perfect example. And there's hitting coaches and
pitching coaches probably are going to make the most money.
But you can never underms estimate the value of a
really good third base coach or just plainly a good
infield coach, and for me, a really good outfield coach.
I like, I've done all those different jobs, so I

(49:38):
know it requires a certain level of expertise in each
area and a lot of commitment. And then right now,
like you're talking about all the information that's heaped on
you every day that you have to decipher and sift
through and then disseminate, a lot going on there man
a lot going on there and the hours that you spend.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
I've had my coaches.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
I had coaches that would go to the ballpark that
ten eleven o'clock in the morning for a seven o'clock
game at night. I say, please doing that, because I
actually used to do that when I started with Marcel.
I'd get there about eleven thirty or noon for a
seven o'clock game because at that time there was no
analytical department, so I was the whole analytical department.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
It would take me that.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
Long to prepare for a first game of a series,
about five hours for a first game of a series.
Then it would present all the information to the team,
and I know eventually that did kind of wipe me
out for a bit. So it's important to understand all that.
Hire people that you think are really good at what
they do, and then pay them and keep them because
the continuity also is going to help these teams become

(50:40):
good over period of time. I don't think that's considered enough.
When I was able to keep my same coaching staff
for several years in roy I promise you this, when
you walk into spring training different, totally different. I know
it's different for the players It's different for the manager
because you know what you're talking about here. As a group,
you know what with each other, believes in tough conversations
are easier because the skin's got a little bit thicker.

(51:02):
You're not just trying to ameliorate or please everybody. It matters.
So as a part of it, that's I've often never
understood why it's so overlooked and it's so underpaid.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
But that's a great point you just made about the consistency.
I remember talking to Chad Mattola, the hitting coach with
the Rays, when the Rays got off to that thirteen
to oh start this year, and it's exactly what he
talked about. For the first time he had probably the
same core group of hitters for like a third year
in a row. It doesn't happen often in Tampa with
all the churn they have, and he talked exactly about

(51:34):
what you just said, Joe. It's almost like the equivalent
of teaching a four hundred level course. You know, you
get deep into your major, you're a senior, you don't
have to cover the basics. You know, it's not a
one hundred level course. And I think for hitting coaches
especially and I'm sure pitching coaches as well. When we
keep the same group together, that's a big advantage. You
can dive deeper. Everybody's on the same page, and you

(51:54):
can kind of really push the envelope forward a little bit.
So it's great observation on your part. As far as
the salaries, Chili Davis was the first one who opened
my eyes to that. He talked about when you're in
a major market New York Chicago, you know a lot
of times you can't get anything shorter than a year lease.
The prices are crazy, the rent you're paying. As you said,

(52:16):
you're there only half the year. Anyway, you need to
get to the ballpark early because guys hit hit. That
often means there's no team bus to take you out there.
You're literally on your own for transportation to get back
and forth to the ballparks, even when you're on the road.
That comes out of your pocket. He basically said, and
after taxes, you know, because you have a second place

(52:36):
in your off season home, you're literally breaking even if
you're lucky or losing money. I think that is something
that's I think it's a great idea. The coaching salaries
should be equivalent to the last guy in the roster
at least, or at least get closer to it than what.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
It is now.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
So I don't think that's going to happen soon because listen,
the supply of guys who want to coach in the
big leagues is endless. And again, the younger generation and
president base bio ops who are making these decisions are
more comfortable with inexperienced people than experienced people. It's just
the way the world is right now.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
It is.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
It's uh, and we have to really, everybody's got to
realize here too. The coaches get blamed when players don't
play well.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Coaches get blamed. The player doesn't get blamed.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Coaches get blamed, and it's it's it's never really uh.
The blame has never really placed on the acquisitional process,
something I've talked about before. So if you're gonna if
you want the coaches to absorb all the blame for
when the player does not perform up to which you
perceive to be what should be the standards that this
guy should be playing at, then pay the guy. I

(53:42):
mean pay the guy, because if you're gonna give him
that much blame, if you're gonna hold him that highly accountable,
then then pay him to pay him like a boss.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Let let this guy.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Think he's that good and and make it so that
when he comes to the ballpark he doesn't have to
worry about, you know, the kids payment to go to college,
or maybe the car broke.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
Down, or we need a new TV or the.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Addition to that whatever. Take some of that off his head.
That's not even considered, that's not even talked about. The
coaches get all the blame, and the dudes that don't
are the ones that are that are recommending whomever's going
to be coming into the organization. And when that doesn't work,
odd it just didn't work. It. They eventually will work
out because of the large sample size if we stay

(54:25):
with it. But in the short term, the guys that
are work doing the work every day are the ones
who get blamed. They get and they get fired. To
this and I've been a part of that where I've
been part of firings not and I think maybe one
in all the years that I manage, maybe one, possibly
two that I really wanted proactively to happen. The other ones, no,

(54:46):
I mean to me, like I said before, I would
prefer keeping the group that I have. The grass is
always greener kind of thing. My god, is it go
brown quickly? For a lot of situations when they bring
somebody and all of a sudden, he's, you know, the
new kid on the block, the flavor of the month,
and all of a sudden, it's being that relatively fast.
It's not any better man, it's the players and so

(55:09):
so it's it's just understand what's going on here, Evaluate properly,
what is our problem right here? Evaluate it properly, and
then go ahead and attack it. But just don't constantly
lay all the accountability at the feet of the coaches
when you don't want to pay him.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah, and it's, uh, there's something wrong in the baseball
world when there's a lot of guys that, believe me,
there are a lot who would rather manage coach in
college baseball than in major league baseball. It's just a
fact these days. So there's that. Jonas has been fascinating.
We'll see how things play out. We obviously wish the

(55:44):
best for David Ross, that he lands on his feet somewhere.
He was on the wrong end of this bittersweet trade,
if you will, in Chicago. Uh, and we'll see how
the other jobs play out, and we'll be here to
break it all down for you as always. So in
the meantime, this let's call it manager Manager's Edition of
the Book of Joe podcasts, as they always do, Joe,

(56:05):
and to call on you to get the last out.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
I'll believe. Okay, this is on me.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Today's on me because people don't realize this, but we
have two. We're doing two podcasts today, and I screwed
up this morning. I was late for this, and I
want to apologize to both Vince and Tommy right now.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
Quote of the Days.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
You can't make up for lost time, And I apologize, gentlemen,
if it.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
Happens again, you got to you gotta find me. You
gotta find me. You gotta find me next time. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Nice bottle of something, Fence, nice bottle of something, Tommy,
I owe you, guys.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Yeah, Kangaroo Court will be in session right after this.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Joe, I got I'm guilty. I'm guilty.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
See you next time.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
Thanks, all right, all right, brothers, see you man.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
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