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March 12, 2024 53 mins

In this episode of 'The Book of Joe Podcast', Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci explain why this is the most dangerous time of the year.  After seeing the Yankees dealing with elbow issues with Gerrit Cole, Tom thinks we're due for a yearly discussion on pitching health.  Teams need to be concerned how much wear is on an arm when they reach the Major Leagues.  Joe reveals the pitching regimen he'd like to see followed by young players.  We explore why innings pitched are down but injuries are up. Plus, Joe recalls his first car and why it cost only $25.

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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey There and Welcome Back. It's the latest edition of
the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci and
Joe Madden and Joe. As I sit here in my office,

I can look on my wall and I can see
a framed poster, if you will, But it's actually the
original catalog of a brand new car. I don't know
if they still do that. It's been a long time
since I bought a new car. Do they still have
the catalogs of the cars and dealerships?

Speaker 2 (00:39):
I think that's all online.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Actually, I was just messing around looking at some Dodge
trucks the other day, and I think whatever you need
to find is online pretty much.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, I kind of miss those having those in your hands,
or the fact they have the paint chips and the
different colors you can choose. Yes, absolutely, Anyway, mine is
the nineteen seventy three Plymouth Satellite. Okay, that was my
first car. That's why it's in a frame on my
wall now. The Plymouth Satellite, for those of you who
obviously have not heard of it, it was used a

lot by police departments. Right, I'm going to connect this
to major league pitching. By the way, So HI with
me on this. Now, my car was not a former
police car. When I bought it used. I ripped off
eleven one hundred dollars bills to pay for that bad boy.
But Joe, if that were a police car, I'm not

sure I would have bought it. Right. Would you buy
a used police car or a used New York City cab?
Probably not right, because let's face it, they get driven really,
really hard. Right, you want the cars that was driven
to church on Sunday And that's it. My point is
when you're talking about major league pictures, and it's been

a storyline this year in spring training that once again
there's a lot of pictures going down with injuries. Essentially.
I know people want to blame major league teams for
the lack of development of keeping pictures healthy, But what
they're doing is they're buying use New York cabs and
buying it used police cars. In other words, there's a
lot of mileage on these arms before these guys get

to the big leagues. Why well, basically because of showcase ball,
travel ball, the ability now to teach kids at an
early age to throw really hard. The quest of velocity,
which is how you get noticed in the amateur market.
So all the way in Terry's showing up at an
early age, and once they're in the hands of professional organizations,
you know you're already working against the odds in terms

of people getting healthy. I bring this up because again
this spring training, and it happens every year, folks. You
know Stan Conte, the old trainer with the San Francisco Giants,
taught me this years ago. The most dangerous time of
year if you're talking about pitcher injuries is spring training. Guys.
Some guys have had some injuries at the end of
the year. They hope that rest of the offseason gets
them through it. Some people ramp up way too early.

It's the most dangerous time of year for pictures. You
think maybe August or September late in the year. No,
it's actually March when guys really start to cut it loose.
So you got Garrett call who's getting an MRI at
his elbow. You've got Lucas Giolito who's down now, Tommy
John surgery. Edward Cabrera with the Marlins now has a
shoulder issue. Jackson Cower the Mariners traded for him from Atlanta.

He's having Tommy John surgery. Well, the other guy they
got in that trade, Cole Phillips, is having his second
Tommy John surgery, and on and on it goes. So, Joe,
we're going to talk about that today. And I don't
want to pretend that we have answers, because baseball teams
and medical professionals have studied this for a long time.
But this is the game that we have now. It's
a war of attrition with pitching. And if you're sitting

there thinking there's one reason why this is happening, I
think you're wrong. It's a very complex issue, agreed.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
I mean, and if you could narrow it down, obviously
we would have done that by now.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
I really believe if.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
I had a pinpoint one item, I would think it's
this chasing velocity has a lot to do with it
getting out of like a normal pattern of delivering a baseball,
almost like a tempoed golf swing, swinging too hard but
being on time.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
I watched these.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Drills that they're they're like taking crow hops and throwing
as hard as they possibly can into nets and then
they get out on the mountain. It's pretty much you
don't even go from zero to six. So you're going
from zero to like seventy five to eighty from your
very first pitch, and that's what we're chasing. We're chasing velocity.
There's a technique is not nearly as important, although you
know you'll get on the different devices that apparently show

your armstroke and how the ball is being released ball
out of the hand.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
It's rotation, et cetera. Spin.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
But at the end of the day, I still like
the idea of a good hitting instructor watching a hitter
from the open side. And I still love the idea
of a really accomplished pitching coach watching a pitcher throw
the baseball from the side of his choice. Those are
the kind of things that I think have gone awry. Also,
I have a friend and I know we talked about this,
is a fellow by name of Jim Kernel.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
I played ball with that Lafayette.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
He's doing like a really big study on this, and
he has a really strong opinion about how this is
happening and why, and he's talked to Ron Darling about
it pretty much, regarding how far the hand gets behind
the head and with the torque in the upper body
and how it like almost like your shoulders almost touch
each other behind in an attempt to create more velocity.

He's probably made more sense of this than anybody I've
seen to this point. But anyway, there's there's a variety
of different reasons. I think chasing velocity is number one.
After that, you can't even talk about overuse or abuse.
It's not permitted, it doesn't happen. Maybe that's the problem.
We're not letting them throw enough pitches, not letting them
throw enough pitches where you're just trying to get hitters
up by making good pitches as opposed to trying to

strike everybody out.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
I mean, there's all these philosophical reasons.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
So anyway, I think it has something to do with
delivery to chasing velocity. I think it has something to
do with what happens with your hand and your arm
behind your head in regards to on your foot lands
and the torque that you're putting on.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
All of that.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
I think there's a correlation to all of that.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
All really really great points. Joe and I agree with
all of them. It does a lot to dive into there,
and we will get to mechanics because it's a very
important point. Let's start with velocity. There's no question that
we have the ability now talking about the industry of baseball,
to have guys throw harder to max out in velocity.
You and I grew up in an era where you

know you were blessed with a good arm or not,
you pretty much threw harder. You didn't. Now we realize
there are ways to train the body to throw harder.
I'm not talking about taking a guy out of your
local bar and all of a sudden he's getting hit
one hundred on the gun. No, but pushing the envelope
in terms of chasing velocity. It's easily done. They're proven
ways to do that. It's happening, There's no question about it.
Velocity is going up around the game. It has been

for the last decade or so. What that means is, again,
this is translating down to the amateur level, right, and
you're talking about players who are doing things like you mentioned, Joe,
whether it's weighted balls or throwing hard into nets. They're
training like grown men when their growth plates are still open.
I would not if I have a major league organization

touch a guy at the top of the first round
who's throwing ninety five plus in heighths wouldn't do it,
and the odds show you that their breakdowns waiting to happen.
Having velocity at a young age is both a blessing
and its curse. It's a blessing because you're gonna punch
out people. Kids at that age are not gonna hit velocity.
It's a curse because you are ramping up that arm
and pushing it to limits that you shouldn't be at

that age when you're not physically fully developed. So you've
got that again. So I think velocity, there's no question
there's a correlation here between velocity and the breaking down
of the shoulders slash elbow. There's no question about it.
And the more we chase it, the more we're putting
pitchers in harm's way. You know the the ASMI group
down in Birmingham, Alabama, it's Doctor Andrews group, and they've

done amazing things studying all this. They have drawn a
correlation between velocity and the breakdown of the arm. And
their recommendation is similar to what you said, Joe, is
don't redline all the time. Don't go out there and
max out in your velocity all the time. The ones
that lasts are the ones who have a cruising speed,
and then they can find that max pitch when they
need to have that. It's hard to convince young players

to do that when this game is predicated on go
as hard as you can for as long as you can,
even if that's four or five innings. Major league teams
are happy with that. So it's hard to convince a
guy now to not redline with every single pitch from
the first inning on.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Stay within the speed limit right for a while. I mean,
I have some of the best pictures I've been around
are those guys that have that little extra when it's necessary.
When the strikeoud is when you don't want to see
contact runner and scoring position, running a second base, zero out,
one out, two running and scoring position, you want to
stay away from contact at all. That's where you might

see a little bit more out of in the past. Really,
the Thoroughbred pictures, you saw all of that, there's something
left in the tank for those moments. They didn't show
you everything they had all the way through. Now you
just want let's empty the tank. Let's rev it all
the way up RPMs as much as you can, as
long as you can as hard as you can. And
now I think that really feeds into the system of

third time through the batting order.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
I've always felt third time through the.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Batting order it could be accomplished by an accomplished pitcher
who ways of pitching and has other things left in
his bag to show this hit or the third time through.
I think that's not even discussed. I don't even have
a way to prove all that. It's just observational on
my part. Guys that have that other thing that they
can do and know how to pitch can get through

the third time through.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
You talk about, you know, when.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
These guys just work out on the side these days,
it's normally with some kind of a monitor there and
some kind of a device there. When these guys are working.
I mean, I think it's I don't even know how
much in the big leagues, but definitely within the minor leagues.
After pitch thrown, a lot of times, the pitchro'll turn
to whomever and say what did that say? What was
my spin rate? What was the movement? What was the

vertical or horizontal movement on that particular pitch.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's what they want to know.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
It's not about you know, the delivery, picking up my target,
completing the pitch. When you throw a ball well, I
don't care if it's a football or baseball, and you
throw it well, it feels like he didn't throw it
at all. There's like this naturalness athleticism to your body.
And that's when you're probably and I'll say you were
throwing your absolute best, your max. When you throw something

well and accomplished and you didn't feel like you threw
it at all. That's what I would be striving for
as a pitcher. But these guys, there's so much recoil
and deliveries. I saw my grandson throwing the other day, Trey,
and he's got a nice arm. He's a tall kid.
He looks like Nuke l Lush. I call him Nuke.
But when he hits, he's recoiling off to the left already,
you know, at different left leg and here we go

to the left because he's probably chasing velocity. It's all
in there, man, it's I definitely believe with a different tact,
a different philosophy in play, that you'd be able to
sustain arms longer. If you really understand stay within the
speed limit, get outside of that when it's necessary. Let
your defense play. We always us to talk about pitch
the contact. Nobody wants to hear that anymore. Nobody wants

to hear the good sninker ball on the ground. Set
the way defenses are set up these days, according to
the data, which I like, I've defended that from the beginning,
that is a good way to set up your defense.
You would think that there'd be more pitching the contact situations,
and then you go for the punch when it's necessary.
These are the kind of thoughts that I'd like to
see incorporate it more.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, listen to it's first of all. One thing that
really bothers me is when people say, well, the throwing
a baseball is an unnatural act. It's not. The human body.
The way the shoulder is designed, it's built to throw.
I mean, that's the way people killed their prey back
in the day, right, But they were probably weren't designed
to throw sliders at ninety four miles an hour. Sure, Okay,
that's the difference here. The human arm is built to throw.

In fact, the fastest motion in the human body is
the rotation of the shoulder and the arm when a
baseball is thrown. The people again at s MII in Birmingham,
American Sports Medicine Institute, they actually took a cadaver and
they figured out how far could you stress the shoulder
in terms of the pressure on it before it literally
falls apart. And guess what it's exactly at the point

a pitcher puts pressure on that shoulder capsule area when
he throws a ball ninety plus miles an hour. Now,
the cadaver was not a twenty five year old, you know,
athlete in his prime. I get it, but you get
the point there. We're already at the physical envelope, the
edge of the envelope when it comes to throwing a
baseball hard. Okay, so the when you do it so
many times and again, I can't stress this enough, especially

at a young age, it's really really important. I'm going
to read you something Joe, that the people at ASMI
decided when you know this, the epidemic so to speak,
of Tommy John surgeries, it's gone on for a long time, right,
I want to say almost two decades. Weren't too that now,
So this goes back to twenty sixteen when it seemed
like we were having a ramp of injuries. Here's what

they said. When an orthopedist performed surgery on a torn
ulner collateral ligament Tommy John ligament, the surgeon will almost
always see a ligament that has frayed over time from
overuse and repetition. In previous generations, my major league pitchers
grew up competitively pitching only a few months each year,
but nowadays leagues and teams are available for adolescents to

play competitive baseball almost all year. Research has shown a
strong link between too much competitive pitching and arm injuries,
and the key phrase there for me, Joe, is competitive pitching,
not throwing. Competitive pitching when you've got the uniform on,
people are watching you, and you're keeping score and the

account's being taken, that's competitive pitching.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
No question.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
It's a different vibe completely. That's the difference between spring
training and a regular season two normally. I mean in
spring training. As a manager, I learned early on that
you know, of course you're paying attention, of course you're watching,
but don't put a lot of stock into performance at
this particular time.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
It's different.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
The moment the big lights go on, everything changes.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
For a kid.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Those big lights are anytime you see a Scout back
there with a gun, or just knowing the fact that
a Scott might be back.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
There when you're that young again.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
To be able to process all the thoughts and information
being thrown your way, it's difficult. So you're always when
you're on point, the show is on, you're going to
reach back for something more. And I definitely understand that
and agree with that as being a part of the
contributing factors. The other point just to I don't know
if this is relevant or not, but you're talking about

the chasing velocity and everybody wanting that to be what
everybody wants. We're at the point now it seems almost
like we're willing to open up a new can of pictures.
I mean, we're going to utilize this shelf and there's
a shelf life on it. They're probably stamped like a
can of beer in my fridge right now, you know
the date when it was born and potentially.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
The date that you got to throw it away.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
I mean, it's almost like we're putting a date on
these guys as they're coming up, just based on the
fact the way we're teaching them and what we're trying
to requesting them to get done. It's almost like you
put a stamp on them when that Tommy John's going
to occur, or when things are going to start breakdown,
or there's always anomalies, man, and there's always the anomaly guy,
and throughout history when we were growing up, and even

today to a point which you thought Garrett Cole was
an anomaly too. So anyway, I think part of it
is the ubiquitous nature of young guys that are able
and willing to throw hard. Right now, I think that, okay,
if this guy breaks down, that's why we got this
this stockpile in the minor leagues, bringing other guys up
that throw that hard too. I think that's part of
the philosophy I do. I don't know that there's as
much concern with the breakdown as there had been in

the past.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
I agree one hundred percent, Joe. I think you're almost
emboldened by the supply again, as we can keep training
pitchers to throw hard, not necessarily be you know, craftsmen
of the of the craft of pitching. That supply is
almost endless. And you know, got two pitch guys who
can throw hard and spin a baseball. There's a lot
out there to recover from the inevitable breakdowns. Now, over

the years, to me, the two biggest red flags for
pitcher injuries have been overuse and poor mechanics. Joe, you
brought up the idea of overuse. We're going to talk
about that as it applies to today's game. Our pitcher's
actually overused anymore. We'll talk about that right after this.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
All right, Joe.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
You know, as a manager, you're watching there that your
guy on the mound and whatever the pitch count is,
you're making sure that he stays in his delivery. And sometimes,
you know, a guy gets outside of his delivery. It's
kind of a warning side. I thought it was really
cool when you sat down with me and Bob Costas
and Terry Francona to talk about Game seven of the
twenty sixteen World Series, and Corey Klueber was out there

in the seventh month of the year, pitching for a
third time in nine or ten days, second start in
a row, on short rest, and it was interesting what
Terry Francona said that he knew watching him early in
the game that his arm was starting to drop. I
thought that was just so interesting. It's the eyes of
a veteran manager in a dug out looking at this
guy and know one he was leaking some oil out there.

My point is, Joe, that happens so rarely in the
game today. Baseball has now aired on the side of
protecting these guys of quote unquote saving bullets. It's rare
that pitchers are out there throwing at any point of fatigue.
The average rest going into a start now is four
or five days of rest, really five days more than four.

So they're pitching less than they ever have, pitching less
often than they ever have, and they're breaking down more so.
I think the argument that pitchers pitched too much and
that's the reason why guys get hurt. I don't think
that flies anymore.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Again, it goes back to what are we asking them
to do in the first place, and that's to throw
as hard as they possibly can. The game has shifted
to an emphasis on relievers. And again this comes to
the third time through. All these things are interconnected. I oftentimes,
even in the past with the Cubs and even before
that with the race, I always talked about playing the
game backward. You know there was a time if you remember,

I know you do that bullpens are not considered so valuable,
right and they're like a dime a dozen kind of guys.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Just I don't worry about it. We will pick up
whenever we want.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
We'll bos get this settled in spring training, et cetera,
et cetera. And I always just think, what are you
talking about? You could absolutely work a game backwards, and
I think you know that's actually what's happening right now.
They want to work the game backwards. It's not something
that you did because you lack really good starting pitching.
Now you do it because that's what you want to do.
So now the emphasis is on the relievers, and I

think that's a big part of the less number of
inningstone by starters. And I think that trend's going to
continue because you're not building it up in the minor
leagues because these guys are not permitted to go through
adversity in the minor leagues. Well, that's number one. You've
said that it's so important to stretch your young pitchers
out in the minor leagues. That you like that you
think these guys potentially are part of your big league team.

These guys have to go through some adversity. They have
to be permitted to pitch out of bad situations. They
have to be permitted to throw one hundred sometimes one
hundred and ten pitches in the minor leagues to get
hopefully through the sixth inning, not just the fifth inning.
Because the more you get your guys to it's it's
ups and downs. When you get guys to understand six
ups and downs and even seven, wow that now you

got somebody special coming up to your big league team.
Last point, regarding over the use. You talked about that
out of delivery, that was my big thing. As soon
as you said that, I just flashed on Shieldsy James Shields.
Shields was a horse man, and I should say permitted
him to go over one hundred and eight pitches once
because he always wanted to go more, always wanted to
go more. I thought he was coming out of his

delivery and I thought he got to that number. I
don't know why I won a wait, but all of
a sudden, bad things would happen. So eventually, you know,
when the scores right, the inning's right, everything's cool, you
let him go and see how he handles it. Eventually
he figured it out and party pretty much what that
would be was like trying not hit the ball three
point fifty down the center. Just hit it three hundred
with your three would whatever, two fifty whatever, don't come

out of your delivery. That was me with him. I'd
see him come out of his delivery. Alex Kobb come
out of his delivery. Those would be warning signs for me.
That's what I always looked at with my better pitchers,
and I would say that to the whomever st my
pitching coach or like Mike Borsello, gott he's staying in
his delivery, I'm gonna stay with him.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Or I see him coming out of it.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
He's trying to manufacture the loss of your stuff. Let's
get him and make sure somebody so and so is ready.
Those are the warning signs for me, one hundred percent.
You're out on the money with that. But the game,
the emphasis is on relievers, and because of that, you're
not going to see start a stretched out and because
of that, they want guys to swing and miss, and
because of that we're going to chase velocity.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
I'm going to tell you a story that you know,
given the events of this week with Garrett Cole getting
an MRI and his elbow the time. He may not
be perfect, but I'll tell you it anyway. I was
in the dais room before the Baseball Writers Awards dinner
this year. Garrett Cole was there to pick up his
cy Young Award, his first Say Young Award. It's amazing.
He's been so good for so long. It took him
this long to be the one who want it, but

he did. And his dad came up to me in
the dais room and he told me you are as
much a part of this cy Young Award as anybody else.
And obviously I was blown away like a cue. What
could possibly have done? And back in the day, I
used to always keep track of when teams pushed young
pictures with their innings, and I never, I never agreed

with it to just have no kind of governors on
a young picture. I'm talking about twenty five and under
in the major leagues, where Joe, you know, the stress
is a lot different with the third deck of the
stadium and everybody looking at you trying to get your
feet on the ground. And back then, I thought, if
you had a picture increase his workload by more than
thirty percent, that was like being a guy who ran
like a mile deciding one day you're going to run

a marathon. Could you do it? Maybe you could do it,
but man, you're gonna get hurts. It's not the way
to go. You got to get there by staircasing it.
Have your workload be increased incrementally. And Garrett and his dad,
to their credit, they studied everything. They read everything. And
I'm not saying I had the answer to everything, but
apparently he read what I wrote. And Garrett's dad stuck

to that. He would not let teams pitch Garrett too
much as he was growing up. And I appreciated that,
but I also thought, you know what, I actually stopped
doing it recent years because teams really don't do that more.
I think they've they've gotten a lot smarter about picture usage,
and I think part of it is protecting young pictures
as they develop. Twenty five and under man, you're still

growing as a pitcher. So I think the and we're
getting back to workload here, Joe, the organizations have gotten
a lot smarter. Maybe they go a little too far
in terms of protecting guys, but I'm talking in this
case about young pictures. I think they've gotten a lot
smarter about not just piling up endings indiscriminately just because
they can, but keeping a keeping track of those things.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
As you're saying that, I'm almost thinking out to myself
out but possibly develop kind of a sliding scale based
on I'm talking to minor leagues right now, guys with
velocity versus guys that have this innate ability to pitch.
In other words, the guys that are just velo guys
chasing velocity, throw hard. That's where their value lies. Maybe

that would be the guy at curtail a little bit more.
But the guy that's a pitcher that stays within, like
I don't know, two velocity with good sync, nice change up,
drops his curve ball over first strike guy. Basically, I
guess I'm just describing somebody knows how to pitch, as
opposed to somebody that's just there to really try to
elevate his fastball top of his zone, like you said,

rip some sliders off and maybe maybe throw a change up.
So maybe there's a sliding scaleing or developmentally speaking. And
I'm just thinking to this as you're talking velocity, a
little bit more careful, a little bit less workload, a
picture somebody that really recreates his delivery, consistently, has a
nice tempo about what he's doing. He's able to repeat mechanics,

et cetera. Maybe that guy gets a little bit more latitude.
I don't know, it might actually make sense.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah. I like what you just said there, Joe, because
when I talk about governors on young pitchers, one thing
I don't like. I think I can speak for you
on this as well. I don't like any rule that
applies to everybody. I mean, it's not a one size
fits all. So what you're talking about is a lot
of different variable in terms of stuff mechanics, body types
huge for me in terms of how you're going to

push a young guy. So you have a general idea
of the increase in innings you want on a picture,
but you cannot apply that equally to all pitchers. Are
just too many types. So just for the sake of expediency,
I would use a percentage. But I do agree it's
important for teams that show some latitude in terms of
how we can push some and others you're going to

have to protect a little more. So I'm glad you
said that it's really important that we don't treat everybody
the same because they just aren't these human beings. And
just to I want to give you an idea, Joe,
getting back to workload of how much, especially starting pitching
has changed because you mentioned how the idea now that
bullpens have risen in promise, in prominence in terms of listen,

how much they pitch more than ever, they get paid
more than ever, you need, more than ever. We get
it right. Just in the last ten seasons, so we're
going from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty three, the percentage
of quality starts, which is allowing three runs or less
over six or more innings, has dropped from fifty four
percent so the majority of starts where quality starts in

twenty fourteen, that has dropped to thirty five percent, so
one from one out of every two to one out
of every three. The average number of innings pitched per
start in ten years, We're not going back fifty years,
folks and Mickey Lolich and wilver Wood. Innings pitched average
start has gone from six innings down to five point one.

The number of pitches that pitchers are allowed to throw
on average has dropped from ninety six to eighty five,
and the number of qualified pitchers. That means in a
full season, the number of pitchers who threw one hundred
and sixty two innings has dropped from eighty eight to
forty four, literally in half in ten years. So you're

talking about thirty teams and only forty four pitchers qualified
by throwing at least one inning for every game and played.
So that tells you how fast this game has changed.
Joe in terms of really dialing back what we ask
of starting pitchers now, I didn't even mention the fact
that again they're pitching with more rest than ever before

as well.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Change their manipulated right.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
I mean, I just wrote down as you're saying all
that if you wanted to chase quality starts, you'll get them,
if you make that a priority within your minor leagues
and your major league, you'll get them if that's what
you set out to do. Because right now you're set
out to have them pitch less, and they're being trained
to pitch less. They're being trained to throw those eighty
five pitches as of post in ninety six.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
It's all about that.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
So part of it is we're not chasing the quality starts,
we're chasing the velocity and relievers number one, number two.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
With that, I don't even know.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
I would never speak to conspiracy theories whatever, but I
mean part of that would be the greater number of
quality starts and the more you look favorably upon starting pitchers.
That's a that's a big number. That's where the money
gets paid. So those start that really could suck up
those innings and give you what you're looking for an
annual basis. I don't even know that teams want three

of those guys. I don't even know if they do
or not. But there's definitely a sliding scale with that too.
I believe whatever you chase, you'll get. Like now you're
chased stolen bases last year by manipulating the rules, and
all of a sudden you got stolen bases all of
a sudden. Now bunts. I didn't like bunchs a couple
years go. Now bunts are cool. Contact striking out is

not as cool as it was five years ago. So
now you're getting less of those and potentially more walks.
Whatever you want to chase within this system industry of baseball,
you get, you'll get it. The players are going to
provide that for you. So that's part of it. I
just don't think we want quality starts, and because of that,
you're not going to get them.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
I mean, as you were right saying that, just one
quick thought, the prior statement you're talking about everybody being
the same, and how that's really a repulsive idea. In
the Book of Joe, we talked about that with Bob
Clear Bob Aloo as my mentor minor leagues.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
I was a young hitting.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
Coach my first year out and I'm in the outfield
that cedar rapids working with the hitters and had them
all doing the same drill, and I thought I was
just trying to create a habit within them to have
a first move that was indigenous to all great hitters.
I thought, God, did he get upset with me? I
came into the dugout after that. He ate me out
in the dugout right there, and we got in a

shout and match right there. I don't care it was
in front of anybody at all, because that's the way
we operate it.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
He can't clone everybody. What do you do?

Speaker 3 (28:33):
And it's Bablo, I'm not cloning. I'm just trying to
get this one movement right. He would not have. He
would not have any of that. Troy Percival. First time
we worked him out in the bullpen at Geonauntry Park.
He's there with us the field number one, left field
side bullpen.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Don't tell him anything.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Just to have him wind up and throw the ball.
Don't make him pretty. That's how his body in arm works.
Don't clone him. So anyway, I mean, just to go
back to your previous thought, that's number one, number two.
Whatever we chase industry wise going to get it, because
the players are going to provide it if you give
them latitude and permission to do it.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, I agreed, and I think you see that, and
you saw it very sharply. From twenty sixteen to twenty seventeen,
the number of qualified starting pitchers went from seventy four
down to fifty eight. I mean, that was twenty two
percent drop all of a sudden. That's huge. Why, as
you said, Joe, the team's no longer valued that sixth inning.
And there's a lot of reasons for that. You can

start with the third time around metric. All these teams
bought into the idea that I'd rather have a fresh
armor at the bullpen facing a guy a third time
than my starting pitcher. The idea that, as you mentioned here,
teams are putting tremendous emphasis on swing and miss. So
the pitchers out there are not trying to get out.
He's trying to get people to swing and miss. And
the irony of that is on offense, teams weren't really
caring if guys swing a miss. I never understood that

they chase swing a miss on defense, but on offense
it was like, oh, that's okay. It didn't make any
sense in terms of consistency. So anyway, the industry really
did deemphasize the ability to take the ball deep into
a game, and you see that as with pinch counts
as well. I mean, a manager is going to get
just absolutely destroyed if he lets a guy throw one
hundred and twenty pitches in the game. These days, it
doesn't matter if the guy's throwing well, it doesn't matter

if he's still in his delivery. He's going to hear
it for the media. He's going to hear it. So
you know, to me, Joe, part of that is just
the kind of the technology and all the information that
teams were going on that's really was driving decisions.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
Yeah, and how many World Series did all these third
time through advocates win?

Speaker 2 (30:29):
I mean, are not going the third time through advocates win.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
It's listen, you could subtract every analytical metric there is
and throw out there and play baseball and you're going
to get a really fun product and you're still going
to get The Dodgers winning, regardless with metrics or not.
Analytics are not because they have the best players. So
regardless of the system in play with third time through
or not, chase the strikeout or not, velocity or not
permit stolen basis or not, the team with the best players,

the best scouting and development group, the guys that get
the best guys in the clubhouse are still going to win.
But right now, the flavor of the month is to
break our game down analytically and speaking of it as
though it's the only way to do this, and like
everything done in the past is superfluous. Why did it
ever happen that way? And I cannot disagree with that more.
We have now become a real baseball folk, the old

school kind of guy, so have become the radicals and
the new school the analytical group would become the conservatives.
It's really flipped from back in like the early two
thousands when analytical world was looking through the window in
to the old baseball group, which was the conservative group,
the group that had kind of pretty much in charge
of how the game was run. And now it's completely opposite.

So now I'm saying we because I do advocate for
a lot of the old school tendencies, although I, like
I said before, the defense, I would not want my
defense to be put any other way except that of driven.
But at the end of the day, man, that's regardless
of the methods incorporated, whether they have technology or lack technology,

at the end of the day, the group with the
better baseball players is going to win. And I'll say
this to the group with the better coaches, guys that
could identify real baseball ability mechanics technique with their eyeballs
in real time, that group has an advantage.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
To Yeah, we talk about it all the time, Joe.
It's the balance, right. You need the humanities as well
as the science. And I think teams make mistakes when
they don't honor the art of the game baseball as
much as we love to kind of figure it out.
The percentages and the data is amazing. We all love it,
but you better honor the art artistic side of the game.

Baseball is like great music, it's like great writing, it's
like great drama. There's something there that can't be quantified,
and you have to honor that. I'm not saying you
go hole in on that and just go everything by gut,
but you better have a good balance. And you mentioned
the word mechanics, Joe, and I want to touch on
that real quickly here, And because this is interesting to me,

I can see guys now with poor mechanics who are
breakdowns waiting to happen. And it's not a surprise when
Johann Santana or Steven Strasburg or Mark Pryor or Jamison
Tai on breakdown. You can see that there's obvious flaws
in their deliveries. I can see young pitchers who go
out there, you know they're just not going to hold up.

There's certain ways, and you mentioned this, especially being a
late loader, where you don't have the ball raise to
the loading position before your front foot lands, you're going
to break down. It's going to show up on your
shoulder and eventually show up in your elbow. We know
these things we can measure these things, and data actually
can really help there too. My point is that there
are fewer guys now who have poor mechanics. I think

what's happened here and again I've talked with the people
at ASMI about this. We've done a really good job
identifying what good mechanics are. And in fact, I know
the Cubs are one of the teams and many of
them they have three D imaging in the course of
a game where they can actually see where your body's
getting outside of the delivery and measure kind of the
stresses that you're putting on your arm by maybe lowering

your arm slot or loading the ball late. Those things
we can actually measure, we know that we see it.
So people are going out there actually with better mechanics
I think than ever before. But that's the rub. What's
happening now is that it's more velocity the mechanics that's
becoming That reason why guys are breaking down, because we've
trained guys to throw more efficients efficiently, and that means

they're throwing harder, and that means the stress on the
ligaments is greater. You can train it as hard as
you can. You can strengthen your body as much as
you can. You can perfect your mechanics. What you can't
do is make your ligament super strong. That's a limit
to what you can do. What we're doing is we're
stretching the length of how far we can push those
ligaments because we have better mechanics, we have bigger muscles.

That's all winding up with stress unligament. So actually, I
think mechanics actually now has been figured out, I don't
want to say mastered, but across the industry a much
better job of figuring out who's got good mechanics, who's
got bad mechanics, how to fix those things. But it
does present now in basically putting more stress on the
arm because you figure out a way to throw harder.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
Well, you were just talking about it. We were I
don't think we were actually recording at the time when
you were talking about you wish you had the ability
to listen to Ricky Fowler and his coach talk on
the practice tee right, same thing. You'd love to hear
a good hitting coach talk to his hitter in the
around the batting cage and see what that's all about.
When it comes down to mechanics. You'd love to listen

to an outstanding pitching coach, and I had the privilege
to do that work with a pitcher in a bullpen
session for about fifteen, twenty or twenty five minutes. To me,
that's really at the that's where it's all happening, because
when the game occurs, and listen, agreed, I mean, you
want to get all of this stuff down as properly
as you can, regarding mechanics, all that stuff in your workouts, whatever.

You want to get that away from the maddening crowd
as you practice. But when it comes to the game,
you want to eliminator stay away. And that's all I
hear about talking about putting. The best putters see the hole,
get over the ball, eyeball this thing up and hit
the ball.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
It goes in a hole.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
Everybody talks about being athletic and just letting things occur,
just let anything happen, being in the moment, But then
we're always preaching all this other stuff simultaneously. I love
having coaches, like I said, I don't know how many
times I've said it, but in the dugout able to
influence Tom Braducci during the game by reminding you with
one word, one thought. One thing that's going to get

you to go up in the box the next time
and perform. And the same thing in a hot moment
when I go out to talk to you on the mound.
Just one little nugget, a nugget, not this whole soliloquy
or diatribe regarding how to get this thing done. That's
where he win man, that's the winning group right there. Yes, goad,
be as complicated as you want hours or days before

the event, but when the event actually occurs, make it
as simple as possible.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, well said Joe. And just to put a bow
on it. You know, we mentioned at the top, there's
not one reason why this is happening. Picture's breaking down
around the game. But just be prepared, folks. This is
what the game is right now. Unless there's some kind
of philosophical change about how they want pitchers to pitch
and approach the craft of pitching, it's going to continue
to happen. The game is built right now to have
pitchers pitch less, but pitch harder, put more strain. They're

throwing more breaking balls, They're finishing their pitches with more effort.
They're trying to get swings and misses. All these things
are adding up. So as much as baseball is guarding
it against the overuse factor as an injury factor, what's
happening is the chase of velocity, of spin of swing
and miss is exacerbating the problem because it does require

more effort. I do not see that changing, and I
think the industry has accepted that as a price of
how the game is played.

Speaker 2 (37:41):

Speaker 1 (37:41):
If I were a pitcher, I know what I'm signing into.
It's a dangerous job. You know that going in, and
you hope you can stay healthy enough to make that
first big contract. Joe, we're going to take a quick break.
When we get back, I want to ask you about
one of your old teams, the Cubs, and their signing
of Cody Bellinger, which I thought was really fascinating. Are
the Cubs the favorites in the National League Central this year?

We'll tackle that question right after this, Joe. I remember
I was actually in your camp this day when Dexter
Fowler re signed with the Cubs in twenty sixteen. And

I've got just an incredible bit of synchronicity for you
because it was on the same day, February twenty fifth,
that the Cubs this year signed Cody Bellinger. I mean,
you can't make this stuff up, right. I was twenty
sixteen when Dexter walked into camp. He was the perfect compliment.
He was the missing piece, you know that, Joe. I
mean just his energy, his ability as a leadoff hitter.

And I feel kind of the same way about Cody Bellinger,
who obviously his skill sets a little bit differently, but
I think he's sort of that missing piece that makes
the team feel complete. So real quick, your thoughts first
on you know what Dexter Fowler that's signing meant for
you that day, and what possibly what Cody Bellinger means

for the Cubs this year.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Well, Dexter was the outlet. He's who you plugged into.
He was that important to that particular group. I don't
know Cody that well, I don't know him at all, actually,
but I kind of gather from listening to what the
players that said, primarily that they kind of viume in
the same kind of light. Just speaking for Dexter, though,
I know on a daily basis, with that smile meant

to the entire group, with that energy meant to the
entire group. The thing about Dexter. Also, I guess Cody
might have this too. He could go through some bad moments.
Dexad go through some really bad moments at the plate,
rollover swing and miss call third strikes. Who's big on
call third strikes as he had a discipline zone. He
was trying to gather his walks too, So he'd go

through some bad moments, but it never would impact him.
He'd always show up the same cat regardless, and that
was a big, huge part. And then when he got.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Hot, man, he got hot.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
He got hot, he get in SENDI area, and this
guy could carry for a long time. The thing about
Bellinger again, and I don't know this, but you know
he has. Yes, I'm swing with holes in, but so
did Dexter. There's there's probably some identifiable similarities right there too. Defensively, Yeah,
you might even argue that metrically that Bellinger is possibly
a better outfielder with a greater range possibly, but he

could also play kind of a nice first base that
he's got a lot of value with that he could
run what he wants to. There is there's a lot
of similarities there are. I just don't know the personality
as well, because I know A big part of Dexter's
value to that group was probably, like I'm just as
we're talking out loud here, I could almost grade them
very similar in a similar fashion regarding hit, hit with power, speed, defense, arm,

et cetera. Except Cody had the other position. But then
it comes down to that thing that what he got inside?
What do you passing out every day when somebody walks
by you, could they grab onto that you kind of
inspire them or pick them up just by there and
being you. That's the part of Bellinger. I don't know,
but I guess if you wanted to, as a Scotch,

you can break it down being pretty close.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, it's interesting he brought up defense. Dexter was out
there at that time as a free agent. I think
he was close with signing with the Baltimore Orioles. Didn't
have a great market out there. Wound up coming back
to the Cubs on a one year deal with an
option for eight million dollars. The word on Dexter back
then was that his defense was poor, and listen, defensive
metrics are notoriously fickle. I mean, I never understood how

Yadi Molina could be a plus defender one year at
a negative defender the next But that's what metrics show you,
right And for Dexter, you know, he was coming off
a year in twenty fifteen where defensive runs saved had
him well below average, a minus fifteen defender, and in
twenty sixteen he wounds up being a plus defender plus one.
And if I remember correctly, Joe, you the Cubs positioned

him deeper in center field and that improved his metrics.
I know Brandon Nimo has done that with the New
York Mets. Nimo is not a great defender, but when
you play deeper, you're taking away some possible extra base hits,
You're allowing some of the balls to drop in front
of you, and the defensive metrics actually like that. So
I've seen players like Nimo play deeper and the defensive

metrics improved. But that was the knock on Dexter back then.
And I think hopefully the organizations have gotten a little
farther away from putting so much stock in these defensive metrics,
especially on a year to year basis.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
On the money, just write a note down depth.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
That was it.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
He came into my office and I went over to everything.
You just talked about listen, you know the numbers. Actually,
I think I said, listen, if you really want to
make yourself more attractive this year contract wise, analytically speaking,
just do me a favor and play deeper. Do yourself
a favor and play deeper. Cause the thing about that,
I've had that with Nick Castillanos too, with the Cubs.
Get Castellanos, get him into big trade. He comes there,

and then I get like, they're the projected week's worth
of lineups from them, and the analytical guys didn't even
have them starting because they didn't like his defense, And I.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Think, what are we talking about her?

Speaker 3 (43:10):
So I queried them, I said, Okay, what don't you
like about his defense?

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Talk to me?

Speaker 3 (43:14):
And I'm thinking, you know, they're gonna throw some technical stuff,
I mean analytical stuff mechanically like doesn't go to his
right well, doesn't go to his left well, is hesitant
coming in, whatever that might be. But there wasn't any.
They just showed me video of like a couple of
balls falling in front of him, like playing in Detroit
with that vast right center field gap right there. Dexter

played in Colorado. That's playing Yellowstone. That's Yellowstone center field
right there.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
It's huge.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
So when it comes down to if you want guys
with good metrics just saying that they're kind of have
average ability on defense in the major leagues position and better,
it really comes down to again talk. I've been complimentary
of the defense setups because and I will be because
I think they're accurate. But when it comes to when
a guy is not considered good, I'd break it down

to my analytic well, where are we starting this guy from,
where are we having him set up? And how does
that speak to him getting two more balls more consistently
based on where you think the ball is going to
be hit. I've always thought that was a big part
of it. So just something as easy as playing more
deeply all of a sudden that adds value to your
contract the next year without one day or two days

or a week of extra work defense coach on fungo,
working on your first step, toyear right, your drop step, whatever,
had nothing to do with it. Just play deeper, and
that's kind of the folly of all that.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Now about Bellinger, I'm curious your take on this. Joe,
you know a lot about hitting. I know the industry
was not sold that Cody Bellinger had completely turned a corner.
He had a three year period there with the Dodgers,
and I know part of it was the shoulder injury,
but he had two nine and was basically a strikeout
waiting to happen a three year period. Last year he
signed with the Cubs. He started working in the offseason.

He lives in Arizona, right by the Cubs facility. Really
made some I don't want to say drastic swing changes,
but I loved what he did rod more on his
back hit. He got himself started earlier, got the bat
in a better position earlier. Cody was a guy who
got by on such great batspeed. I never saw a
player who could wait to move any part of his

swing as late as Cody Bellinger could. Eventually it caught
up to him. He became to me a much better
hitter last year. Was he the same power hit or
he was in twenty nineteen. No, I think it's a
lot of ways. He was the better hitter. Only Luis Reyes,
who was like this generation's Ride Carew, was better hitting
with two strikes than Cody Bellinger. He was a guy

you could flip the ball up there with two strikes
and he would chase it no matter what. He was
a strikeout waiting to happen. So I saw him make
adjustments to me that were very real, and I loved
his approach. And now some analytics people are going to say, well,
you know, look at his exit velocity. His average exit
ve low was down. Did you watch the guy play?
Because this guy just carved balls through the infield with

two strikes, he put the ball in play. That's why
his exit velocity went down. He was a better hitter
the lower exit velocity. So my question, Joe, is when
you look at someone like this who's made some swing changes.
To me, the industry, by not giving Cody Bellinger that
eight nine ten year deal, is not convinced that what
he did is sustainable. The Cubs did a great job

waiting it out, getting him back on a three year deal.
It's essentially a one year deal because he can opt
out after the first and second years, and they wound
up getting this guy at a very cheap contract based
to me on what his value was. But the industry
told me they were not going to eight nine ten
years for Cody Bellinger. They saw risk there for you
as you break down hitters and you see guys who
make changes, how do you decide what you believe is

sustainable or not? Because this guy has done it in
the big leagues, it's not like he's never done it
is Cody Bellinger all the way.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Back goes down to what do you want.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
You talked about that earlier, you wanted to continually have
that long uppercut kind of swing that you could identify
the holes easily. With elevated velocity. He probably still gonna
have greater exit velocity, possibly hit probably absolutely hit more
home runs, but he's going to hit right around two
hundred again, and you're going to be really concerned about
all those punch outs. And the pitch ability is very

easy to pitch against. You could identify again with today's
metrics and data, where to throw a fastball and how
hard it needs to be that he cannot catch up
to it. That's real easy stuff. So he had to
make a choice, and he did. And so I don't
know if it was the I would imagine the Cubs
played into this somewhat, but it had to be a

buying from the player that he knew that I cannot
continue this way, because if I do, I'm pretty much
done because I cannot catch up the velocity. It's bad
when you're in a batters box man, and you know
fastball's coming and your prep for the fastball and you
see it go right over the top of your bat
because you can't get to it. It's a bad feeling, man.
So I got to do something about it. And that's

what he did. So is it sustainable? Of course, what
he's doing I think is sustainable now being because he
has kind of tried to level a swing off more.
He's trying to stay inside them all more. He's content
with with two strikes, making an adaptation of permission to
put the ball in play. All those things are I
think are sustainable. But then are is it going to
be enough for whomever's in charge of the organization to

say this is good enough, this is who we're looking for,
Because don't forget the guy's a great athlete. Guy could
play some defense, he could run, There's a lot of
things he can do. So what do you want here?
It pretty much comes down to what do you want?
I would for my money, I like what he did,
and I would stay right there.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
And what he.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
Did last year I think is sustainable. There may be
the bad luck moments now where that's softly hit ball
now is going to get caught. There might be where
I suppose it just fell in the outfield grass or
between a shortstop and the third basement. Those things may happen,
so there might be a fluctuation in numbers based on that,
But overall approach, I wouldn't change a thing because if
he wants to be and if the Cubs want him

to be viable in a sense where they can rely
on them for years to come, I'd like to believe
that's who he is, and it'd be hard for him
to go back to what he had been regarding just
trying to be nothing because it just didn't work for him.
And he knows his waterloo when it comes to velocity,
but so does everybody else, and they know where that
velocity needs to be thrown. I like this version of

Bell and Joe a lot better.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, And I do think to me, the Cubs are
the team to be in the central and I think
it's a great race. I don't think they're miles ahead
of everybody else, but I do think it's funny Joe.
A lot of people were on the Cubs early on
what are they doing. Nothing's going on. At the end
of the day, they had a really good off season,
and they had a really good off season because they
were patient. They got the players they wanted at the
contracts they wanted. It worked out well for them. Joe,

before we go, and I know you always close things
out for us, but I got to give you equal
time here. I started talking about my nineteen seventy three
Plymouth satellite, and I know the book of Joe, we
kind of traced the arc of your life really with
your ownership of vehicles, which is a book in and
of itself. But your first car. You got to let

our listeners know about that.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Wow, fifty three Chevy. I was a coal mining car.
Got it for twenty five bucks. I don't know where
my dad found it. What I mean by a coal
mining car, whoever owned it worked in the mines and
you take out the back seat and you just throw
a coal in the back when they come home to
heat up the house. So there was black all over
the back of that thing. Three on a tree stick,
three speed on the column. Twice the brakes failed me

once going down Carson Street towards the woods right below
twenty second street, had to pull on the wheel hard
left to make sure they go into the woods. I
can't remember if that was the first or the second time.
And in the wintertime tied a door to the front
of it so I could use it as a plow,
and really on bad days, on really real snowy days,

like about midnight one o'clock in the morning, I would
drive out.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Nobody be on the road but me. I have like
these little.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
Snow tarres with little studs or spikes on them, and
I would literally intentionally drive it into snow piles and
see if I can get out. There was nobody else
on the road. So it's a lot of fun just
to do that. No radio, There was no radio on
that thing. And I don't even know if the heater
worked or not, just hot air coming off the engine.
But that was the first one, and god, I don't
even want to say I wish I had it back,

but it definitely was a lot of fun. It taught
me how to face adversity when your breaks go out.
So it's twenty five bucks a Chevy Black I think
it was fifty three.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Only Joe Madden, folks, I mean, that's why this is
the most interesting podcast in baseball only Joe Madden. First Car.
We get a story about plowing snow with a coal
Myer's car with a door used as a plow.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
It was so fun. Man.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Well, so people understand that my dad had a buddy
named Johnny Damara who was a great mechanic and helped me.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
Met my dad and john fix that thought.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Even how they did it to the front end of
my car was outstanding.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
Somehow, Joe, You've got to top that by bringing us
to home here. What do you got for us today?

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Well, today I was looking at the sports page.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
I sit in the morning.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
I read the New York Post the Bible every morning,
not only the sports page. I love a lot of
this post because it gives me everything I need to
know very quickly. But the Yankee situation with Cole, etc.
And I'm reading all the different takes on this and
all the different spin on it. It's so fun to
read because all of a sudden they start talking about
their young pitchers and how great they are because they

have to introduce them to the fans. In cases doesn't
work out well. So it's all about adversity. And this
is very succinct and I love succinct from George costanz
in Seinfeld.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
But YadA, YadA, YadA.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Right, adversity introduces a man to himself, Einstein, an organization.
Adversity introduces an organization to itself. So that's what the Yankees.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Got going on right now.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
I mean, they have all these wonderfully high expectations this year.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
I've listened. I'm hoping there's nothing wrong.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Just the way it was reported or presented, you'd have
to believe there's something going on there. But adversity introduces
an organization to itself. So let's hope that this as well.
As I want to see the Yankees perform with all
the moves, I like Brian Cashman a lot. I want
to see that work. I want to see Riz win again.

But there's there's definitely an adversarial component of this thing
right now that they need to get right. And now
it's Snell available and all these Montgomery available. Wow, they're
just sitting in the background and seeing how this might
all play out. So it's kind of interesting. But it's
definitely an adverse situation with the Yankees.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Well said Joe as always, and yeah, adversity to me,
it's a synonym for opportunities. Right, So we'll see what
happens for the New York Yankees, and we do wish
the best for Garrett Call absolutely always fun. Joe really
enjoyed this, Thanks brother, appreciate it. The Book of Joe

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