November 21, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci look at next season stadium situations for the A's and Rays. After his time in Tampa, Joe talks about the challenges around getting a new stadium and the support of the community. Onto the future of pitcher Paul Skenes and what concerns there are as the Rookie of the Year moves into his second season. We also explore the influx of younger managers and how these former players will impact how games are managed. Plus, what does a new study on 'What I want to be when I grow up' say about the future of sports?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey, Daron, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You have found once again the Book of Joe Podcast
with me, Tom Verducci and Joe Madden.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Joe, We've got a lot to get into.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's amazing how there's quote unquote nothing going out in
the game. But there's a lot of topics I want
to get into. I want to talk about what Buster
Posey is doing putting his fingerprints on the San Francisco Giants.
I want to talk about the future of Rookie of
the Year Paul Skens, how good can he be? And
I want to talk about what you want to be
(00:41):
when you grow up, Not you specifically, Joe, I think
you've done okay, I haven't grown up yet Tom, but
what kids want to be when they grow up these days.
But let me start with a franchise near and dear
to your heart, the Tampa Bay Raised Joe, because the
news this week has not been good about the Raised
future in Saint Petersburg or even the Tampa Bay area.
(01:02):
Of course, they need repairs on the roof damaged by
the hurricane recently. It's going to cost almost fifty six
million dollars to do that, and at the meantime, funding
for their ballpark, which they thought they had lined up,
got pulled out from under them, at least for the
next three weeks, where a vote by the county commissioners
was postponed. There's a lot going on there, you know,
people are still recovering from that hurricane down there. There's
(01:24):
a lot of civic need down there, and I don't
think the ballpark is top of the mind right now.
But the Rais are saying that this delay, and of
course we had an election in between where the board changed,
where you now have two people who are not on
board quite yet with funding for that ballpark, could change
the vote. So the raiser are saying, hey, listen, we
(01:47):
may be out of here.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Joe. I know this franchise.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You know well, you took the raise of their first
World Series in the franchise history. I'm really interested in
your take here on what the future is for the Rays,
even short term. We know they're playing at George Steinberner
Field in Tampa this year, but the next three years
seem to be really critical, if not the next three months.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, obviously you're one hundred percent. I've been here for
a bit. I'm here right now. Actually, I'm actually boots
on the ground in Tampa. First of all, yeah, the
ballpark and the money, et cetera. And then to invest
all that money in Saint Petersburg. I've never really quite
understood that. Honestly, there's always been like this small feud
between Tampa and Saint Petersburg, and to the point we
(02:30):
have to call it Tampa Bay or Tampa Saint Pete
quickly to follow. I just never thought there's like a
unification component to this area, which they badly need. The
Tampa Bay Rays, I think to really survive and prosper
would be to put this ballpark on the other side
where it's more easily attainable. You just can't drive here, man,
(02:51):
it's hard going over the Gandy or going over the
Howard Franklin Bridges causeways, whatever you want to call him.
Then of a work day is very hard to do.
It's difficult. The traffic is that bad, and it's getting worse.
It's getting thicker. Saint Petersburg, the other hand, is really
ascending as a city, as a hamlet, as whatever you
want to call it. They've done some great work there,
just the infrastructure, how it looks, restaurants, opportunities, it's really
(03:15):
the art district there is outstanding also, and of course
the topography is beautiful. There's all of that. But when
we used to drive in at two three in the
morning from the airport to the ballpark to unload after
a road trip, you drive into Saint Pine, I'm thinking
to myself, this is more light and take this in
the right way because I love the minor leagues, but
more of a minor league looking town, how does it
(03:36):
support a major league entity with the there's really basically
no skyliners that the industry would be tourism primarily, and
your ballparks around it by sea creatures more than it
is human beings. So there's a lot there that I
never quite understood, and I know and I think it's
wise also that they're trying to, I believe, build a
(03:57):
ballpark into this area that's going to be influential regarding shopping, restaurants,
et cetera, not just the ballpark itself, which I think
would be the right way to do it. However, Dang,
I've always thought two things for this area. Either move
it over to Tampa where it's more easily gettable at
the end of a work day, and even for that matter,
(04:18):
more easily at tannable from surrounding areas there because it's
tough to drive around here. It's difficult, and there's not
there's no way to really expand the infrastructure when it
comes to roads. It it might open up Orlando a little bit.
So A either moved to the Tampa Bay area or
Tampa area and number two just move. I've always thought that.
(04:40):
I back in the days the Teas, I walked into
one of the winter meetings and I had Nashville Cats
on by love and spoonful I think it was, and
I thought that would be a wonderful opportunity just because
it's and this is not a slam. I love this area.
That's why I'm here. I love Tampa, I love Tampa Bay.
(05:00):
I love what they've done in Saint Pete. But over
arching to support me major league team not easy to
do here. So at some point maybe the Hurricanes answered
the question for them. I don't know, but that's what
I've always felt. Loved the area, love it, I think
it's great, but to support a major league baseball club
not easy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You made a really good point there, and I certainly
appreciate your perspective. This is your perspective is so well
informed with your history there, the rivalry between the two counties,
It's always kind of boggled my mind to the point
where we still heard about this because when it came
time to listen, the race can't play at the Drop
this year, we know that it's going to take a
(05:40):
whole year to fix the building.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So where do you play?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And Panella's County is like, why don't you just play
in this county? Play at the Phillies spring training site
in clear Water. And what major League Baseball is saying
is that there's really no comparison in terms of the
infrastructure as a major league facility. And let's face it,
a make do major league facility that George steinberg a
Field in Tampa has just better physical facilities when it
(06:07):
comes to you know, the locker rooms, the training facility,
parking areas. It was done, not done to slight anybody
in Panelas County. It was just what is the best
physical place for us to play Major League baseball in
twenty twenty five with the Rays. So it's an interesting dynamic.
I don't know if that can be no pun intended
bridged to get an issue. It hasn't for years. So
(06:30):
now Joe, we're looking at a year next year, the
twenty twenty five baseball season, Baseball, Major League Baseball will
be played in two minor league parks, you know, the
A's and West Sacramento and the Rays in Tampa Saint Pete.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
It's not ideal, believe me. Both places.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
You're going to be talking about extreme weather through the
summer months, extreme heat and Tampa as you know, Joe,
you get the almost daily rainstorms in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
But this is what we have.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And you know, if you're the manager of either one
of those teams, Markcotze, Kevin Cash, good luck, because you're
going to have to make that a point of not
a point of interest or contention. You have to kind
of diffuse it. How about that as a manager, Joe,
with those teams and those facilities.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, it's it's it is. There's a lot to be
thought of there. Even in Sacramento. It's going to be
way harder than it would be in Oakland during the
course of the summer. But let's stay here in Tampa Bay.
Did the schedule before the game is gonna have to
be altered dramatically. The kind of work you had gotten
done at the trap so easily is not going to
be as easily fulfilled at Steinbrenner, like you said, just
(07:36):
because of the daily rainstorms and even the course of
the game when you have to stall a game, stop
a game, put the tarp on, pull the tarp and
then the oppressive heat. My goodness, I mean now you
can say and I thought, obviously the Marlins win a
World Series in the heat. They actually did pretty well
because you never wanted to go when you ever you
went down there to play outside in Miami at Joe
(07:59):
Robbie at that time I think was called whatever. Not easy,
It's difficult, but they succeed it, and I give them
credit for that. There's a lot to overcome on a
daily basis. You have to have some really tough minded players.
As I'm telling you, man, it beats you down, It
can beat you down. Of course, there's getaway dames. You're
not going to play it during the daytime. You just can't.
(08:21):
Games have to be played at night, and you have
to again plan for it differently and be willing to
accept that better indoor facilities and make sure the cages
are in good order, and the extra work you have
you have to really pinpoint exactly when and make it
into smaller pockets for me extra hitting. For instance, at
an outdoor facility like that, you don't come out at
(08:43):
two o'clock if you're on the field for your regular BP,
just say it four forty five for five o'clock BP.
As an example, I would back up my extra work
right into that four forty five slot, so that all
this happens in a more unified manner, because when you
spread this stuff out, it gets very difficult, and again
for so many different reasons, a lot more to think about.
(09:03):
Can none, of course, it can be. Like I said,
the Orleans had been successful with it, not in an
optimal way though you're always talking about, you know, pitchers
of five innings. Tell you one thing, man, this wears you,
doubt as much as anything, that heat and the humidity.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
That's a great point.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
The Marlins were the first team I can remember when
they were on the field for BP. They went out
there in T shirts and shorts. It was kind of
a weird look, but it certainly made sense. Joe I
mentioned Paul Skens, named the Rookie of the Year. He's
a National League sy Young Award finalist, not going to win,
but as a rookie, that's I think he's only the
fifth or sixth rookie to finish in the top three.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
For Cy Young.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Of course, Fernando Elinzuela, the late Fernando, late great Fernando
did win it back in eighty one. I want to
get your take on Paul Skeen's watching him pitch. I mean,
his stuff is remarkable. I thought the Pirates did a
great job with him. He did not make a start
this year on four days rest.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Now you have to.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Understand normal rest now is not four days, it's five days.
The majority of interleague starts now are made that with
more rest than than traditionally. So the Pirates made sure
they always gave him, never pitching him on four days rest,
giving him that fifth day.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
It worked out great.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
At the end of the year, Joe, his era in
September was zero point seventy five and he has his
highest strikeout rate at the end of the longest season
of his young career. Give me your take on Paul Schimes,
what you see on him and as good as he
was with one nine to six cra as a rookie,
what his ceiling might be.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, It's like everything else we talk about in the
industry of sports health is the number one factory here
watching his armwork behind him from the beginning, I just
I was concerned. It just appeared like there was a
lot going on, I thought, and I might again, I'm
just watching on TV. Occasionally I thought he kind of
abbreviated it a little bit a season in progress. I
(10:59):
just thought his stroke armstroke, when I mean what happens
behind him and not in front of him when he
starts throwing a baseball. There's a lot to unfold back there,
and there's a lot to keep on time back there,
and he listened. He does it because his command is ridiculous.
So Number one, I would just continue to keep my
focus there regarding his delivery because of the split finger
whatever he calls that thing. When young players, young pitchers
(11:22):
through that pitch. I was always concerned in the minor
leagues when my guys coming up back in the day,
because one of the things was that they could get
minor league hitters out with that. They never had to
develop their fastball and their other pitches. But the other
part was I thought to put a lot of strain
on their arms. Their forums and their ailbows. And I
know people disagree with that, but I believe that to
be true. So that's number one. But regarding also the
(11:45):
length between appearances, I kind of liked that, and I
was something I advocated for even with the when I
think by the time I got to the Angels, for sure,
it might be easier to find, you know, six pitches
you like as opposed to five. Because the way the
game is being processed today, I thought by giving starters
an extra rest front, offices might be more lenient regarding
(12:07):
permitting them to throw more pitches or go more innings.
And with that, I would really create an emphasis if
you have that and if that's what you've sought and
that's what you're going to work as a six six
man basically, or you know, the extra day rest in
between really focus on how do you get the hitters
out the third time through the batting order? And we
focus on all these other things, and we have all
(12:27):
these evaluations or plans or whatever you want to call them.
If the if the big trick is the third time
through the batting order, and we really spent time trying
to focus on, Okay, what is the problem here? Is
it just the fact that they've hitters seeing them the
third time through? Is it the fact that pitchers lose
stuff because all they're doing and they're maxing out from
the very first pitch? Do you need to approach the
(12:49):
first time, first time and second time through the batting
order different differently regarding what do you actually show the
hitter of your full repertoire. How do we do this?
So number one schemes, beautiful man's is stuff is electric
and the command really is what sets him apart the split.
I'm just a little concerned with that and how his armworks,
(13:10):
but I do advocate for the extra man in the rotation.
And if we do that and we are then be
more lenient letting these guys go more deeply into games
and focus on how to teach guys to get that
third time through, whereas it's not such a problem for
analytical people and really puts a lot of stress on
the manager.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, I hear you. On the pitch he calls it
a splinker.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
It's really across a hybrid between a sinker and a splitter.
What he does is he basically throws a sinker with
a slightly or modified split grip.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It's not a true splitter. It's not that wide.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And his idea is he just throws it without manipulating
the ball it comes off. He actually changed it where
it comes off more of the index finger now than
the middle finger. But that's a power sinker, is really
what it is. It's coming in there at ninety two
ninety three. It's got thirty inches of drop, so that's
seven inches more than a typical sinker. It's an unhittable pitch.
(14:11):
He just owns the command of it. As you mentioned, Joe,
he's a strike thrower. He's not a pure power pitcher.
He's he's got the catcher set up on corners and
he can hit those corners. That's the thing that impresses
me most about Paul Skeins is, Yeah, he can throw
the ball one hundred miles an hour, but at the
same time, he can command the baseball. He knows what
he's doing out there at twenty one, twenty two years
(14:33):
of age.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I thought it was really impressive to see that.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
But I'm not as worried about the splitter as you, Joe,
because it's to me, it's not a true splitter.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah again, I haven't This is observations from watching on television.
I've never been seeing him in person, and I'm just
going through my years having done this in the minor leagues,
and you're right. I mean, those guys that I was
concerned about really did split their fingers. He'd see guys
walking around with a softball a lot of time. Most
of the time there was starters too. There were starters,
but they would walk around with the softball so that
(15:03):
they can split their fingers even wider. And then when
they got into regular baseball was easier to do that.
And I know it was a big thing. Roger Craig
brought it on man and it was it was dynamic.
And then of course you could talk about the Japanese
with their shooto, which is another form of this split,
and you can talk about you Darvish and I even
had Shugartoshi Hasagawa with the angels really good with that pitch,
(15:25):
putting hitters away. So it's very popular in the Asian
culture pitching market. So it just could be, you know,
the person himself is the proclivity to be injured whatever.
I don't know, but I saw it enough that I'm
always concerned about it. But with this guy here, Listen,
it's the real deal. I mean, what he did this
year phenomenal. The guy stays healthy, he's gonna be like
(15:47):
this for many years to come. And that's the only
thing you worry about. But you don't worry about it
to the point where you're protecting, where you just back
off on everything. If you get hurt, he gets hurt.
You try to do everything you possibly can in advance.
But the stuff is that good. The command was outstanding.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, listen, needs six foot probably about two thirty. You know,
not everybody should be treated the same way. To me,
he looks like he's built the last. I agree with
you on his armstroke behind him. When I first saw it,
I was like, whoa, you know, what's that? Not in
love with it. What he does is when he takes
the ball up, he brings his right elbow higher than
(16:24):
his right shoulder. So I call that picking the ball
up with your elbow. Most people will rotate before they
get to that point. Now, that in and of itself
is not a true red flag. The problem comes in
when you lift the ball and your elbow comes up
higher than your shoulder. It creates a timing problem. Basically,
you want that ball to be raised in the loaded
(16:45):
position as that front foot hits the down slope of
the mound. If you're lifting your elbow up, you're creating
a little more another beat there where it takes time
then to rotate up and you're what they call late,
and that creates all kinds of problems.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That puts a lot of strain in the shoulder and
eventually it gets into the elbow.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
We have some issues there, but if you really look
at Paul's skeins, yes, he brings the elbow higher than
the shoulder, but to me it's borderline. But he gets
the ball to the loaded position as that front foot lands,
so to me, he looks like he's on time.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
I remember when the Chicago White Sox drafted Chris Sale.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
He's got the same issue with that elbow comes up
and they had a lot of debate in their draft
room about whether we want to take Chris Sale because
we don't know whether this is sustainable or he's an
injury waiting to happen. And they came down the side
of the fence that you know, it is borderline, but
it's good.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And Chris Sale has had a heck of a career yeah,
you know.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I know he's hurt, you know, but he was in
the mid thirties by then and has come back unbelievably well.
But to me, Joe, I think that the mitigating factor
here is I think he's on time, even though it
looks a little funky and all. But by the way,
he also has a very low release point for a
guy who's six foot six, he's got a five and
a half foot release point.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
He's got a lot of max Scherzer actually in his delivery.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And that plays, let me tell you, especially when you're
throwing one hundred miles an hour to have that vertical
attack angle. So again, like you, Joe, I saw that
little hitch if you want to call it that and delivery,
and I'd like, huh, I'm not sure I like that.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
But when you really break it down, I think he's okay.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And like you're saying, that's a big part of his
success too, he's at that point. I don't know how
long he's been throwing exactly like that, but I bet
it's been for a while and you're not going to
change that, and you don't want to change it, and
like sureser, like the ball comes out of their shirt
almost it almost comes out of their right part of
their shirt, the right chest area. And there's deception involved,
which is outstanding. All these things are factors in him
(18:40):
being as good as he is. I have seen the
tunneling thing where the ball comes out of the same
spot and all of a sudden the pitches do so
they disperse on such a wide margin that from a
hitter's perspective, what am I swinging at here? So there's
so much to like about him. I hear him talk.
He's a great kid. I wish him nothing but the best.
(19:00):
I'm just answering questions. These are the concerns that would
have and you would watch him with. But I don't know.
You'd have to bet on this kid in the future.
He's so successful collegiately comes here and nails it in
this first year. Just be curious to watch this proceed.
I don't think you're gonna all of a sudden see
(19:21):
young pitchers trying to throw like him. That'd be hard
arm delivery to replicate. I've always felt a lot of
times really great players do things in an indigenous manner
to them, and I've used the example even like say,
go back to Stan Musual with his batting stance or
Julio Franco with his batting stance. There's different things that
really good players. Bob Boom the way he sat on
(19:42):
the ground with his butt on the ground. Guys that
are really good at what they do sometimes do things
a little bit differently than everybody else, and it's a
part of their success.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And one more thought on Paul Skans.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I'm really curious to get your take on this, Joe,
and we will do this right after this quick break.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Is there such a thing as throwing too hard?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Because you have seen velocity increase in league Baseball and
Paul Skeens.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Is at the top of the chart.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Is there a correlation between velocity and injury risk?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Will dive into that right after this. By the way,
how about the start.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Of Paul Skenes' career, even going back Joe in the
last year and a half. You know, he wins the
College World Series at LSU. He's the number one pick
in the draft. He signed the highest signing bonus in
Major league history, you know, a one to one pick
by the Pittsburgh Pirates. He starts the All Star Game
after just eleven major league starts and now he's Rookie
(20:47):
of the Year and a cy Young Finalists, just amazing.
Kind of reminds me of Chris Bryant and the start
that he get off to, right, you know, number two
overall pick, and then Rookie of the Year, then World
Series Champion, MVP. I mean, it doesn't get much better
than what we've seen.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Paul skeens, No, it's phenomenal. And you always skeptical, not
having scouted him, not knowing the guy. So when all
of a sudden all this stuff starts happening, you're watching curiously,
like really, and then you watch him throw even one
game or a couple innings. I picked it up on
the tube one time. I said, Wow, that is really legit.
(21:22):
And like I said before, the one thing that would
be concerning I thought, But then I'm thinking, my god,
he's been probably throwing like this for a long period
of time. He might have a preciously good workout routine,
all these things that I don't know, we don't know
that he does behind the scenes that permit him to
be that great. And then again, with all of that
being said and done, the command of his fastball to
(21:44):
me sets all this stuff up. If he did not
command his fastball as well as he did. Hitters might
be able to be more patient, they might be able
to recognize things sooner, but having to worry about that,
and as long as that command stays in place, he's
going to continue to be this difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I mentioned velocity, Joe, and one thing I like is
to see pitchers kind of grow into their velocity naturally.
I'm always scared when I hear about seventeen eighteen year
old kids throwing upper nineties. You know, the body just
hasn't really been fully formed to handle that kind of stress.
And Paul Skeens is one of these guys, and Blake
(22:20):
Snell is another one who came into velocity later.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
This guy went to Air Force as a two way player.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
He was a catcher, you know, he didn't become a
full time pitcher really until he went to LSU, where,
by the way, he had Wes Johnson, former Major League
pitching coach, as his pitching coach at LSU.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So I like the fact that a he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Pitched out the way kids with great arms tend to
be by the time they even before they get drafted,
and his velocity came later. You know he grew he
was a great hitter, and I think that the velocity
that he has now we do have to talk about
that because it's it's upper tier.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I went back and looked at the last four years,
and his.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Velocity this year average in ninety eight point eight, which
is incredible. So I looked at the last four years.
There's been six pitchers who average ninety seven point three
and above. Starting pitchers, Hunter Green, Spencer Streyder, Sandy Alcantra,
Garrett Cole, Grayson Rodriguez, Jared Jones, and now you have
(23:20):
Paul Skens. Obviously, Joe, there's a lot of injuries there,
and we're talking about those pictures. And you go back
over the last let's say, the last ten years, similar seasons,
rookie seasons, throwing one hundred and thirty to one hundred
and forty innings with velocity and a high strikeout rate.
You've got Walker Bueller, Spencer Stryder, Jacob de Gram and
(23:41):
Paul Skens. I mean, listen, there is a correlation. We
can't ignore it, Joe, between velocity and injuries. The harder
you throw, the more stress you have. The more stress
you have, the more likely you are to be hurt
at just an overall fact. But I do like the
fact that a unlike Bueller and de Gram, he came
(24:03):
into the major leagues or at least professional baseball healthy.
Those two guys had Tommy John surgery the year they
were drafted. And the fact that again he wasn't a
pitcher only his whole life, you know, that really appeals
to me.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, I didn't even know honestly about the catching perspective
or component when you said that. I mean, and I'm
thinking about Troy Percival when we first got Percy on
the mound, and his arm did a lot of that
stuff behind him also, But Percy was relief pitcher obviously,
and he threw very, very hard and had tremendous deception
with the high lay kick. So it happens. But you again,
(24:39):
starting pitcher throwing that hard that consistently, it just seems likely.
And the examples you gave are perfect examples. It just
has to happen at some point. How does the arm
survive all that unless the guy's just a freak it
it's hard to understand de Grom and all those people. Wow.
(25:01):
So moving forward, probably his workout program, and I'm sure
the pirates are involvement back to LSU. Once he established
this this consistent velocity, and they had to start looking
into this and try to really figure out how do
we maintain this and keep this guy healthy and well,
not that anybody else doesn't, but like you said, this
(25:22):
guy was not hurt coming into it like the other
guys had gotten there out their first Timmy John prior
to that's it. That's the key, that's the secret list.
I don't know the answer to that at all. I
don't even know if anybody does. But if I'm the
pirates are really digging deeply on that, I don't think
the answer is to throw less or monitored number of
(25:42):
pitches and all that other stuff that doesn't seem to
work anyway physically, workout wise, whatever works for this particular fella,
I would stay focused in there, but I would not
baby him on the mound.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I'm glad you brought that up, because we do tend
to think that's the answer, and we really don't know.
In fact, the other day I had a conversation with
a major league player person guy, and is exactly exactly
what he said was, we just don't know when it
comes to pictures being hurt. And I think that that
took a lot of intelligence to admit that no matter
(26:15):
what mitigations teams come up with, they really don't know
what causes injury. And there are outliers just in terms
of genetics and DNA, you know. I think justin Verlander,
Nolan Ryan have been those kind of pictures you can
throw hard and have a long career. It's been done,
so that is to me, Joe, I think it's a
great point what you made here that you know, just
(26:36):
cutting back on the number of pitches alone or the
number of innings, we're saying that's not working. I mean,
it doesn't mean you go to the opposite extreme and
just run guys into the ground the way they did
in the sixties and the seventies. But if anybody tells
you they know what the answer is, just don't believe them.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I'm with you, I don't believe them. And that's just
like the third time three of the batting. What I
know statistically is it shakes out. But I don't know
how much time is spent on teach pitchers how to
get through the third time through. And that begins into
minor leagues Collegiately speaking, most of these guys do get
that opportunity. If you're good in the college, the coach
is not taking you out of the game. You're going
(27:15):
to pitch a big number, You're going to pitch more
deep into the game. So there there's got to be
some success. Although the hitters aren't of the same caliber,
of course, but that would be my main objective. I
think two things teach teach pitchers, and I've talked about
with James Shields. I love Shields, these shields, but a competitor.
(27:36):
But when he had to work too hard for his
house early, like exposes change it really like in the
first inning too often. I was always concerned if he
came out he's stow in ninety three to ninety four,
ninety five, I would be concerned because I would think
that that's going to impact the second, third, fourth, fifth
inning at some point because either he's too jacked up,
he's over amped right now, velocity's too high, and then
(27:57):
I got to work really hard to get my ouse early,
and I'm showing everybody everything I got in the first
and second inning. I loved on the utilization of the
fastball early. I do. I love the utilization of the
fastball early to spots, not just necessarily just throw it
right down the middle. Teach your guys to spot it
up and really learn how to get quick outs. That's
(28:17):
where the quickouts occur. Early count fastball is located, and
in that situation you might get the ball in play
or you want to get the bomb play and everybody's
trying to mispats. I understand that, but you can't strike
somebody else till you get to two strikes to get
to your third one. So I like the idea of
fastball command, like the idea of not working so hard
for your outs early and really using that as a concept.
(28:40):
And then with that in the minor leagues, I would
encourage my young starters two pitch the third time through
to learn how to do this, to learn how to
be more creative, to learn how to make maybe save
something where that one, two, three, and four hitter the
third time through, I see them and make it part
of the developmental plan. I don't know how much that's discussed.
(29:00):
I don't think it's discussed at all, but that would
be a big part I think. And then the result
would be better bullpens that have less work to do, Joe.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Earlier I mentioned the San Francisco Giants and Buster Posey
is now their point guy running this organization. Have you
had a chance to kind of dive into what Buster
has been trying to do so far with the Giants?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Honestly, I have not.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Honest it's pretty interesting, And actually I started thinking about
this in terms of players now basically having the keys
to the car when it comes to running major league teams,
and it's been a while since they've been trusted to
do that. Now you've got, you know, starting with Chris
Young in Texas. Obviously they won the World Series a
year ago. Chris gets has taken over in Chicago with
(29:42):
the White Sox. He's got a huge job ahead of him.
And now Buster Posey. So we get former players now
making decisions, and in Buster's case, he's bringing back some
of the people that he knows from his playing days
in decision making positions. Danny Evans, his agent, Jeff Berry,
Randy Winn. But it's interesting because whenever anybody gets hired,
(30:03):
questions are always about analytics, right and how much you're
going to use it. And I almost have to start
with this preface Joe that everybody is using analytics. This
is not an either or scenario. Okay, everybody wants them.
It's part of the game. It has been for years.
It's a matter of how much you emphasize them. Do
(30:24):
they drive your decisions or do they influence your decisions?
And Buster Posey has some really interesting things to say that.
Remember he's got a veteran manager there in Bob Melboyne,
and he said, look, we're going to use analytics. And
I've already talked to Bo mell about this, and hey,
how do we want the flow of this to be.
(30:44):
Do we want it to be let's let the projections
spit out, but we think it should be you look
at it and then you write the lineup, or you
look at the lineup and then we look at the projections. Ultimately,
I'll leave that up to him. My sense is I
want my manager that's using his years and years of
experience to write the lineup. And I thought this last
(31:05):
part here, Joe is really interesting about, you know, decision making,
analytics and the manager and that intersection. Ultimately, I do
want to leave it to him. This is Posey talking
about Bomel again. I just think it's important for him
to have that authority and for the guys on the
field to know that, hey, this is the guy that's
(31:27):
leading the charge for us, and we're going out there
to battle for him and he's got.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Our back through all of this. How about that perspective.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
How about an amen? A right? That's that's beautiful right there.
That's exactly that is well, put that in my for
my sensibilities. That's exactly right. And this is not disparaging
to any part of a baseball operation. That's just the
way it should be. The leader is present, he's there
(31:58):
all the time when you talk to him. When a
player talks to him and he answers the player, he
answers with confidence. The manager does because he has the
authority to speak to the player freely without having to
consult somebody regarding what he's going to say to that
player right now. Because to hire this guy in the
(32:18):
first place, this manager, whomever is doing the hiring, you
have to have confidence in faith and you have to
have his back as he's doing what he's been assigned
to do, manage the baseball team, not be a middle
manager to manage the team. Yes, as a manager, you
could talk to anybody I don't care what the year
was we wanted. You always want information. You want the
(32:41):
best information. You want, give it to me, Give it
to me as much as you can, and then permit
me then to distribute it as I see fit. And
I'm going to consult you. Absolutely am in it. But
I would tell the analysts if you're really certain, like
one hundred percent, sort and please let me know. If
you're lukewarm, you could tell me you're lukewarm. I could
(33:02):
take that too. And if you're totally ambivalent, don't even
tell me about it. So when a guy comes up
to me and he's absolutely locked in on something, and
I really you know, I've got a good working relationship
with this dude, I think he's good. I'm in. I'm
absolutely in. But I've been involved in situations where the
people that you're getting this information from are really not
(33:25):
convicted and they don't have to answer any questions, and
they're sitting there and their work, and again, analytics provides
a safety and effort decision making. They're looking at large
sample sizes only, and they're not reading the tea leaves
of the day, which is really important, which are really
good manager is able to do so good for Buster.
I don't really know him that well, if at all,
(33:47):
but I'm here to tell I like the idea of
former guys, former players getting this opportunity to run organizations.
I think it's great, And furthermore, I like when the
player doing it came from that organization.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Well, Joe, let me let me have you speak to this.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
One part that really stood out for me because it
did take a former player to have this point resonate.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And that is the fact that as the player, the
guys in the field is he said, he has to
know that this is the guy who's leading the charge
for us. In other words, the manager is the one
who's making this decision. He's not implementing somebody else's decision
who's not accountable for those decisions. And in Buster's words,
(34:32):
we're going out there to battle for him. He's specifically
talking about the leadership dynamic between the manager and the
player that's so important. And let's face it, it has
been diminished a little bit as the chain of command
has changed and the power nexus has changed. But Buster's
talking about something that's been a traditional part of not
(34:55):
just baseball but all sports that as a competitor. You
are out there trying to win for your coach or
manager and because you no, he's invested in trust in you,
and he's the one who's ultimately putting you in those
spots to succeed.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, and the manager has been empowered to say with
conviction to this player what he believes. I'm telling you,
it's gotten to the point now where nobody's very few
are able to do that because and it happened to
me towards the end there too, you have to almost like, well,
let me check with so and so first before I
really tell this person what I think, because am I
(35:33):
stepping on toes? Is there something else that I'm not
aware of here? That I really need to be careful with.
So you have all of this in the back of
your mind, but if you have the total empowerment that
you can be speak to the player with conviction, then
the players truly know who the leader is. And after all,
you see them every day, you're in the locker room
with them, you fly with them, hotel lobbies, you see
(35:55):
them all the time. It's an omnipresent moment. All this
guy's always there, and this is the source of our
direction and leadership. Absolutely, and I'm not diminishing by any
means the front office. I love working with really good
front offices where you get like this union thing going
on and they're coming to you with things. But there's
(36:15):
got to be the ability to disagree, and there's got
to be the ability to when you disagree and you
arrive at a conclusion that whatever that conclusion is, we
go out and we do this, and if it doesn't work,
there's not a whole bunch of fingerpointing that occurs afterwards. Yes,
the players need to know the manager is the guy,
and when they feel that, there's like you always read
(36:37):
the I'd run through the wall for this guy. Yeah,
that's kind of what it feels like when you're totally committed.
When a manager looks a player in the eyeballs and
he tells him something sincerely from he truly believes to
be accurate and true of this guy, the player's going
to run with that man and it's going to make
him either bolster him up, make him feel greater. He
gets the ambivalent answer, he's going to be as confused
(36:59):
as everybody else. Is hire your manager, empower your manager,
support your manager, and then he does the same thing
with your players.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, it'll be interesting how it turns out.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
The Giants obviously have done a one eighty, you know,
under far Hans Aedy. It definitely deep into analytics and
playing percentages. And I like what I've heard so far
from Buster Posey. It'll probably take some time to really
change the culture, but I like the fact that he
knows what he wants the Giants to be. He seems
(37:28):
very determined and assured of the direction he wants to go,
So that's going to be an interesting watch.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Hey.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I talked earlier about what do you want to be
when you grow up?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
That's a question we hear a lot about kids.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
There's been a poll about that in different countries and
I found the results fascinating.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
We'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Next, Okay, Joe, I'll ask you the question when you
were a kid, what did you want to be growing up?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Wow? I was just discussing this a couple of days ago.
How about this is weird? But I wanted to be
a bus driver or a truck driver because I thought
the idea of driving somewhere, being on the road, going
places was always attractive to me. I loved the lines
in the middle of a highway, the passing lines, the
(38:28):
broken line. That to me was always attractive. There was
an allure to that. So I thought, as a kid,
if I can do something like that, that means pretty much,
you know, the United States was open to me. I
thought about driving to Florida or driving out west. I
always thought about going somewhere. I thought about going somewhere
via a vehicle, and I was the driver, and I thought,
(38:51):
what better way to do that than to drive a
bus or to drive a truck. How about that?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Now I understand the whole RV fascination exactly right. And boy,
you were cut out for all those years in the
minor leagues. Childhood dream come true. You just left the
driving to somebody else.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Absolutely, That's that's true, man. And I still like, just
drove down from Pennsylvania to Tampa two days to eight
hour days, beat up a little bit by the time
you get here, but still I enjoy that. There's a
there's this end component of that where you get lost
in your driving, and of course sometimes it gets a
little hectic around big cities. However, when you get out
there on the open road, there's something adventurous about that
(39:30):
and free about that that. I think that's probably what
my allure was back in the day.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Very cool for me. It was always writing. I always
love writing. I don't know why I would, just I
just came out that way. I was just wired that way. Now, listen,
I was playing sports, you know, every single day, no
matter what the sport was, what time of year.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You know, that was I as a.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Kid, the ultimate passion. And of course you want to
do that for as long as you can. But you know,
I knew deep down that that's what I was wired
to do, so it was easy for me. And now
I'm looking at Pole's Joe. The world has changed so much.
And there was a poll recently of asking kids from
twelve to eighteen what they want to be when they
(40:12):
grew up. You have any idea what the number one
answer was. They allowed kids to pick basically up to
three and rather than pin them into one thing. What
do you think was number one dream job for a
kid between twelve and eighteen?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
A social media influencer.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Oh you are so good? Number one was a YouTuber.
Number two was a TikTok creator. Also, the top five
was an app or game developer, Instagram influencer, influencer.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
That's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
And thankfully doctor and nurse did finish third, but entrepreneur
was fourth, artists was fifth, and the game developer was sixth.
You have to go all the way down the seventh
to get the athlete. Wow, it's really fascinating that you
know that has become the goal. And actually, there was
(41:03):
a poll in twenty twelve that asked the same question
in China of Chinese teenagers as opposed to American teenagers.
The American teenagers number one answer was a vlagger, a
video blogger. Right China, it was an astronaut, and teacher
(41:25):
was second. Vlogger was last. Interesting, it's fascinating that this
generation is now growing up understanding that you can achieve fame, success,
money very quickly, and in many cases, Joe, it seems
very easily. And a lot of them are making money
(41:46):
as teenagers online by promoting products, selling products, whatever. So
there is an entrepreneurial spirit to it. But the danger
to me is that you're so far into the rabbit
hole teenagers spending an average of five hours a day
on social media that the other world, virtual world, it
becomes your world. And this is the first generation is
(42:08):
growing up with this being the carrot that's driving them.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Wealth without work. I mean, that's one of the readiest
sins there is, and that always concerns me, man, and
it is a big concern. I love the Chinese kids' answers.
And as you were talking about this, I wrote down
liberal arts. It's just a thing of the past, and
I still would love to see a resurgence in that,
only because I think it creates a more complete human being.
(42:34):
And you talk about the liberal arts normally that's by
the time he got to college. Just and again, what
that means is that you become conversant on a variety
of different subjects and not just one particular thing that
you try to become good at. That should happen eventually,
but to expose yourself to a wider foundation or base
just makes you more interesting. It's just a more interesting person.
(42:55):
It's somebody that understands is I think you become more
apathetic naturally, there's all different positive just what you did
as a writer and reader and those kinds of things.
And I was and it's not going to happen, but
there'd be so wonderful even even if started in high
school bring the term up and really promote that kind
of an education is more more as compared to a
(43:17):
specific specialized education at an early age. To me, that's
it's just strong. It's just it's just not right. We're
developing people that again they think that they can get
they want not only yet, but they want things more
easily without having earned them or worked for them, or
gone through a lot of failure to get to that
particular moment. All that stuff is important to really create
(43:38):
the well rounded individual that we're looking for to lead
us down in the future. So that's that's my concern.
It's a very superficial method to a success that I
just don't it's just it's just it's just very dispariting,
I think. So I'd love to see more advocacy for
liberal arts, liberal arts educations and what that means, and
(44:01):
then get into your specialized areas you've really brought in
your base.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, and I know you're a big fan of Da Vinci.
When I was growing up, the phrase that I that
really caught my attention and I was so fascinated by
it when they would use the phrase he's a renaissance
man or a renaissance woman, right, and that's what you're
talking about. I remember Mike Reid, defensive tackle at Penn State,
was also a concert pianist. Yes, I thought that was
(44:26):
so cool, and that was, you know, if not a goal,
it was something that you admired and maybe strive for.
It's interesting that when I talked about China and Joe,
because all the kids are on TikTok, we get it.
And here in the States, the algorithms are built so
that you basically keep going down this rabbit hole of
you know, dance videos and it basically it's it's designed
(44:49):
to have you hooked on what you're already watching and
different versions of that. While the version that they have
in China is more educational, it's not designed to keep
you on and on and on watching the same thing
that are just vacuous and you don't use your mind.
But it's meant almost like turning the page of a
newspaper where you don't know what's on the page, and
(45:12):
you may come across the story you otherwise would not
have read and say that's pretty cool. So they are
presenting you not by following an algorithm, by what's going
to hook you on the same thing different versions, but
giving you. Hey, you should check this out because this
is interesting, even though it's a little bit different. I
think that's fascinating that the genes are giving their own
(45:34):
teenagers a different version of what we have here.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
It's definitely it's a plan. I mean, definitely has to
be a subversive component to all of that. You know,
we hear about that all the time. You've read about that. Yeah,
we are just not feeding our kids very well right now, mentally,
we're not. We're not doing that at all. It's a
huge concern, you know, to pop culture the way it
is it is, it's a very superficial method, and you
(46:01):
have to be concerned as parents are a concerned the future.
You have to be concerned about that too. And why
just defending our group. I mean, yeah, we had a
good time, and there was a lot of stuff going
on in the seventies and there's a lot of superficiality
going there too. But you know, the collegial component of
the whole thing was really important, and when you went there,
(46:23):
it was more about free thinking and not being influenced
in the manner that a lot of universities do now,
right down to the point where faculties are so slanted
in a really strong liberal direction, and a more conservative
method is not being really taught or concerned about. So
there's all this kind of influence and going on to
(46:44):
that I think is concerning as supposed to more balanced approach.
It's just imbalanced. Everything's imbalanced, and it's all made way
too easy, and the thought of the ability or the
the attempt to really earn some things doesn't seem to
be as important anymore. And the edification's got to be
immediate comes from you know, how we get our food
(47:06):
if well, we just drove down and we walk into
any any like gas station, big service station, and you
walk in and you look at the food choices that
we make, just on all the racks and all the walls,
and you talk about why there's an obesity concern in
the United States. It's all it's right in front of
our very eyes, but nobody's paying attention, and eventually, if
(47:27):
we're not careful, it's really going to come and bite
us in the butt very hard. So yes, I can
understand why the Chinese are doing that for their kids
while they're attempting to influence our kids in a much
more negative manner.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
One of the reasons I bring this up, Joe, is
how it relates to baseball, because what you're talking about
really is something that I've noticed as well. I don't
know how you didn't know anybody didn't notice that, the
lack of diligence. As you said, people want things easy,
they want a quick fix, they want to hack. What
about the reward of working on something through diligence, And
(48:02):
I think that defines the game of baseball. Baseball is
not an easy game to play, right. There's a long
learning curve. You just don't walk on the field and
become great. Even the best players in the world go
to the minor leagues, but even as a youth there's failure.
You have to deal with what's wrong with that? And
I just worry that the participation of the game will
(48:25):
decline because it is not an instant gratification type of sport.
It takes diligence and until that that ethic comes back
that some things are worth working at. I just worry
about the participation of the game.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
That's a great comp that's a great way of putting
it your hundred percent right. It is a very very
difficult game. It's really hard. Baseball is really hard, and
from the hitting perspective, it's gotten even more difficult. Out
of all the parts of the game, that's the one
that really is accelerated. And I listen, I'm the wrong
(49:02):
guy to talk to to appease a lot of the
minds today because the minor leagues are fabulous and the
fact that we have virtually almost eliminated minor league baseball
and really reduced it to what it is, that is
really where your craft has learned. I know there's a
lot of expenditures there that kind of don't make sense
because you're not per team, You're not going to get
that many major league players, but you're going to get
(49:24):
a lot of major league coaches, managers, scouts, etc. Maybe
even some front office people, announcers, whatever. There's a lot,
there's a lot of complementary components of this that weren't
even talked about or considered. So, yes, it's a hard
game to be really good at to have your body
constantly perform in a way so that your mechanics are
(49:46):
in order on a nightly basis. I've talked about this
and everyday major league player people have no idea how
hard that is to be. That is really hard to
be that good every night. If you look at a
Soto as an example, to be that good every night
is not easy. Now maybe it came more nationally to him, whatever,
but not easy because a part of that is the
mental anguish that is concerned with that. So yes, the
(50:09):
earning component I got. I just one of the biggest
disappointments I've had over the last several years is the
kind of almost like I said, the elimination of minor
league baseball, how important it is and what's being taught there,
and on the level that it's being taught there, and
all the great lessons learned by being there, and the
difficulty of being there, the bus rides, the amount of
(50:29):
meal money. I know, there's been a big concern about
housing and how some minor league players more recently complained
about the fact that they couldn't afford it. Who could.
When you're in the minor league, man, you couldn't afford anything.
You just had to scrap. You had to try to
save money and the off season by doing a job
and keeping a couple of bucks, or having you calling
your dat up and having a Western Union use some
fifty bucks when you really needed in Bakersfield. I mean,
(50:52):
this is all good stuff. I don't understand why that's
not considered important anymore. The facilitation of everything really kind
of is almost like the ruination.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Well, Joey, you always bring us so a fine conclusion
to the episodes of the Book of Joe And hopefully
you've got something today that hits on this theme of
either diligence or reward hard work. Usually you find an
amazing way of tying everything up.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
What do you got today?
Speaker 3 (51:19):
I have three of them. Actually, they're all interconnected, and
they do honestly blend right in Weirdly, I got to
give you all three because they all they're all germane
to what we just talked about. Number one, success is
blocked by concentrating on it and planning for it. Success
is shy. It won't come out while you're watching. That
(51:42):
was Tennessee Williams. And that's so true. If you're always
waiting for the golden ray of sunshine to occur, it's
not happening, man, But then all of a sudden, you
wake up one day and pum, the sun's right in
your face. Success is shy. It won't come out while
you're watching. I love that and then two more to
your point, experience the name men give to their mistakes, right.
(52:04):
I mean, if you really want to formulate or compile
this large cliche of experience, you've got to make a
ton of mistakes, and you got to look stupid, you
got to embarrass yourself sometimes, and you got to just
like how do you even wake up in the wonder
how do you get to this next point? That's what
experience is. And the last point from Kim Blanchard, the
(52:26):
key to leadership is influenced, not authority, and that's something
we talk about all the time. So I mean that's
kind of like with Busters talking about in San Francisco specifically,
and making mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay
to go out there and try something and screw it
up time and time again, because you know what, eventually
when it does work, while it's so satisfying and compelling.
(52:51):
So those are my three. I think we're on the
same page. And I love the fact that that success
is shy.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
I love that all really really good the failure, especially
for young people, and I try to tell them all
the time, go ahead and make mistakes.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
That's where you're learning.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
You know, everybody wanted to be a finished product right away,
but you become that finished product. Not by being good,
certainly helps, but by making mistakes so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Who is that from again? That was that was the
Tennessee Williams.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
But the Oscar Wilde was experienced. The name Oscar, the
name men give to their mistakes is experience. Great.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Great way to end it, Joe, great job. We'll see
you next time on the book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
You two brothers. Thanks man,
Hey, Daron, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
You have found once again the Book of Joe Podcast
with me, Tom Verducci and Joe Madden.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Joe, We've got a lot to get into.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's amazing how there's quote unquote nothing going out in
the game. But there's a lot of topics I want
to get into. I want to talk about what Buster
Posey is doing putting his fingerprints on the San Francisco Giants.
I want to talk about the future of Rookie of
the Year Paul Skens, how good can he be? And
I want to talk about what you want to be
(00:41):
when you grow up, Not you specifically, Joe, I think
you've done okay, I haven't grown up yet Tom, but
what kids want to be when they grow up these days.
But let me start with a franchise near and dear
to your heart, the Tampa Bay Raised Joe, because the
news this week has not been good about the Raised
future in Saint Petersburg or even the Tampa Bay area.
(01:02):
Of course, they need repairs on the roof damaged by
the hurricane recently. It's going to cost almost fifty six
million dollars to do that, and at the meantime, funding
for their ballpark, which they thought they had lined up,
got pulled out from under them, at least for the
next three weeks, where a vote by the county commissioners
was postponed. There's a lot going on there, you know,
people are still recovering from that hurricane down there. There's
(01:24):
a lot of civic need down there, and I don't
think the ballpark is top of the mind right now.
But the Rais are saying that this delay, and of
course we had an election in between where the board changed,
where you now have two people who are not on
board quite yet with funding for that ballpark, could change
the vote. So the raiser are saying, hey, listen, we
(01:47):
may be out of here.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Joe. I know this franchise.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You know well, you took the raise of their first
World Series in the franchise history. I'm really interested in
your take here on what the future is for the Rays,
even short term. We know they're playing at George Steinberner
Field in Tampa this year, but the next three years
seem to be really critical, if not the next three months.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, obviously you're one hundred percent. I've been here for
a bit. I'm here right now. Actually, I'm actually boots
on the ground in Tampa. First of all, yeah, the
ballpark and the money, et cetera. And then to invest
all that money in Saint Petersburg. I've never really quite
understood that. Honestly, there's always been like this small feud
between Tampa and Saint Petersburg, and to the point we
(02:30):
have to call it Tampa Bay or Tampa Saint Pete
quickly to follow. I just never thought there's like a
unification component to this area, which they badly need. The
Tampa Bay Rays, I think to really survive and prosper
would be to put this ballpark on the other side
where it's more easily attainable. You just can't drive here, man,
(02:51):
it's hard going over the Gandy or going over the
Howard Franklin Bridges causeways, whatever you want to call him.
Then of a work day is very hard to do.
It's difficult. The traffic is that bad, and it's getting worse.
It's getting thicker. Saint Petersburg, the other hand, is really
ascending as a city, as a hamlet, as whatever you
want to call it. They've done some great work there,
just the infrastructure, how it looks, restaurants, opportunities, it's really
(03:15):
the art district there is outstanding also, and of course
the topography is beautiful. There's all of that. But when
we used to drive in at two three in the
morning from the airport to the ballpark to unload after
a road trip, you drive into Saint Pine, I'm thinking
to myself, this is more light and take this in
the right way because I love the minor leagues, but
more of a minor league looking town, how does it
(03:36):
support a major league entity with the there's really basically
no skyliners that the industry would be tourism primarily, and
your ballparks around it by sea creatures more than it
is human beings. So there's a lot there that I
never quite understood, and I know and I think it's
wise also that they're trying to, I believe, build a
(03:57):
ballpark into this area that's going to be influential regarding shopping, restaurants,
et cetera, not just the ballpark itself, which I think
would be the right way to do it. However, Dang,
I've always thought two things for this area. Either move
it over to Tampa where it's more easily gettable at
the end of a work day, and even for that matter,
(04:18):
more easily at tannable from surrounding areas there because it's
tough to drive around here. It's difficult, and there's not
there's no way to really expand the infrastructure when it
comes to roads. It it might open up Orlando a little bit.
So A either moved to the Tampa Bay area or
Tampa area and number two just move. I've always thought that.
(04:40):
I back in the days the Teas, I walked into
one of the winter meetings and I had Nashville Cats
on by love and spoonful I think it was, and
I thought that would be a wonderful opportunity just because
it's and this is not a slam. I love this area.
That's why I'm here. I love Tampa, I love Tampa Bay.
(05:00):
I love what they've done in Saint Pete. But over
arching to support me major league team not easy to
do here. So at some point maybe the Hurricanes answered
the question for them. I don't know, but that's what
I've always felt. Loved the area, love it, I think
it's great, but to support a major league baseball club
not easy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You made a really good point there, and I certainly
appreciate your perspective. This is your perspective is so well
informed with your history there, the rivalry between the two counties,
It's always kind of boggled my mind to the point
where we still heard about this because when it came
time to listen, the race can't play at the Drop
this year, we know that it's going to take a
(05:40):
whole year to fix the building.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So where do you play?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And Panella's County is like, why don't you just play
in this county? Play at the Phillies spring training site
in clear Water. And what major League Baseball is saying
is that there's really no comparison in terms of the
infrastructure as a major league facility. And let's face it,
a make do major league facility that George steinberg a
Field in Tampa has just better physical facilities when it
(06:07):
comes to you know, the locker rooms, the training facility,
parking areas. It was done, not done to slight anybody
in Panelas County. It was just what is the best
physical place for us to play Major League baseball in
twenty twenty five with the Rays. So it's an interesting dynamic.
I don't know if that can be no pun intended
bridged to get an issue. It hasn't for years. So
(06:30):
now Joe, we're looking at a year next year, the
twenty twenty five baseball season, Baseball, Major League Baseball will
be played in two minor league parks, you know, the
A's and West Sacramento and the Rays in Tampa Saint Pete.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
It's not ideal, believe me. Both places.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
You're going to be talking about extreme weather through the
summer months, extreme heat and Tampa as you know, Joe,
you get the almost daily rainstorms in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
But this is what we have.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And you know, if you're the manager of either one
of those teams, Markcotze, Kevin Cash, good luck, because you're
going to have to make that a point of not
a point of interest or contention. You have to kind
of diffuse it. How about that as a manager, Joe,
with those teams and those facilities.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, it's it's it is. There's a lot to be
thought of there. Even in Sacramento. It's going to be
way harder than it would be in Oakland during the
course of the summer. But let's stay here in Tampa Bay.
Did the schedule before the game is gonna have to
be altered dramatically. The kind of work you had gotten
done at the trap so easily is not going to
be as easily fulfilled at Steinbrenner, like you said, just
(07:36):
because of the daily rainstorms and even the course of
the game when you have to stall a game, stop
a game, put the tarp on, pull the tarp and
then the oppressive heat. My goodness, I mean now you
can say and I thought, obviously the Marlins win a
World Series in the heat. They actually did pretty well
because you never wanted to go when you ever you
went down there to play outside in Miami at Joe
(07:59):
Robbie at that time I think was called whatever. Not easy,
It's difficult, but they succeed it, and I give them
credit for that. There's a lot to overcome on a
daily basis. You have to have some really tough minded players.
As I'm telling you, man, it beats you down, It
can beat you down. Of course, there's getaway dames. You're
not going to play it during the daytime. You just can't.
(08:21):
Games have to be played at night, and you have
to again plan for it differently and be willing to
accept that better indoor facilities and make sure the cages
are in good order, and the extra work you have
you have to really pinpoint exactly when and make it
into smaller pockets for me extra hitting. For instance, at
an outdoor facility like that, you don't come out at
(08:43):
two o'clock if you're on the field for your regular BP,
just say it four forty five for five o'clock BP.
As an example, I would back up my extra work
right into that four forty five slot, so that all
this happens in a more unified manner, because when you
spread this stuff out, it gets very difficult, and again
for so many different reasons, a lot more to think about.
(09:03):
Can none, of course, it can be. Like I said,
the Orleans had been successful with it, not in an
optimal way though you're always talking about, you know, pitchers
of five innings. Tell you one thing, man, this wears you,
doubt as much as anything, that heat and the humidity.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
That's a great point.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
The Marlins were the first team I can remember when
they were on the field for BP. They went out
there in T shirts and shorts. It was kind of
a weird look, but it certainly made sense. Joe I
mentioned Paul Skens, named the Rookie of the Year. He's
a National League sy Young Award finalist, not going to win,
but as a rookie, that's I think he's only the
fifth or sixth rookie to finish in the top three.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
For Cy Young.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Of course, Fernando Elinzuela, the late Fernando, late great Fernando
did win it back in eighty one. I want to
get your take on Paul Skeen's watching him pitch. I mean,
his stuff is remarkable. I thought the Pirates did a
great job with him. He did not make a start
this year on four days rest.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Now you have to.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Understand normal rest now is not four days, it's five days.
The majority of interleague starts now are made that with
more rest than than traditionally. So the Pirates made sure
they always gave him, never pitching him on four days rest,
giving him that fifth day.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
It worked out great.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
At the end of the year, Joe, his era in
September was zero point seventy five and he has his
highest strikeout rate at the end of the longest season
of his young career. Give me your take on Paul Schimes,
what you see on him and as good as he
was with one nine to six cra as a rookie,
what his ceiling might be.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, It's like everything else we talk about in the
industry of sports health is the number one factory here
watching his armwork behind him from the beginning, I just
I was concerned. It just appeared like there was a
lot going on, I thought, and I might again, I'm
just watching on TV. Occasionally I thought he kind of
abbreviated it a little bit a season in progress. I
(10:59):
just thought his stroke armstroke, when I mean what happens
behind him and not in front of him when he
starts throwing a baseball. There's a lot to unfold back there,
and there's a lot to keep on time back there,
and he listened. He does it because his command is ridiculous.
So Number one, I would just continue to keep my
focus there regarding his delivery because of the split finger
whatever he calls that thing. When young players, young pitchers
(11:22):
through that pitch. I was always concerned in the minor
leagues when my guys coming up back in the day,
because one of the things was that they could get
minor league hitters out with that. They never had to
develop their fastball and their other pitches. But the other
part was I thought to put a lot of strain
on their arms. Their forums and their ailbows. And I
know people disagree with that, but I believe that to
be true. So that's number one. But regarding also the
(11:45):
length between appearances, I kind of liked that, and I
was something I advocated for even with the when I
think by the time I got to the Angels, for sure,
it might be easier to find, you know, six pitches
you like as opposed to five. Because the way the
game is being processed today, I thought by giving starters
an extra rest front, offices might be more lenient regarding
(12:07):
permitting them to throw more pitches or go more innings.
And with that, I would really create an emphasis if
you have that and if that's what you've sought and
that's what you're going to work as a six six
man basically, or you know, the extra day rest in
between really focus on how do you get the hitters
out the third time through the batting order? And we
focus on all these other things, and we have all
(12:27):
these evaluations or plans or whatever you want to call them.
If the if the big trick is the third time
through the batting order, and we really spent time trying
to focus on, Okay, what is the problem here? Is
it just the fact that they've hitters seeing them the
third time through? Is it the fact that pitchers lose
stuff because all they're doing and they're maxing out from
the very first pitch? Do you need to approach the
(12:49):
first time, first time and second time through the batting
order different differently regarding what do you actually show the
hitter of your full repertoire. How do we do this?
So number one schemes, beautiful man's is stuff is electric
and the command really is what sets him apart the split.
I'm just a little concerned with that and how his armworks,
(13:10):
but I do advocate for the extra man in the rotation.
And if we do that and we are then be
more lenient letting these guys go more deeply into games
and focus on how to teach guys to get that
third time through, whereas it's not such a problem for
analytical people and really puts a lot of stress on
the manager.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, I hear you. On the pitch he calls it
a splinker.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
It's really across a hybrid between a sinker and a splitter.
What he does is he basically throws a sinker with
a slightly or modified split grip.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It's not a true splitter. It's not that wide.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And his idea is he just throws it without manipulating
the ball it comes off. He actually changed it where
it comes off more of the index finger now than
the middle finger. But that's a power sinker, is really
what it is. It's coming in there at ninety two
ninety three. It's got thirty inches of drop, so that's
seven inches more than a typical sinker. It's an unhittable pitch.
(14:11):
He just owns the command of it. As you mentioned, Joe,
he's a strike thrower. He's not a pure power pitcher.
He's he's got the catcher set up on corners and
he can hit those corners. That's the thing that impresses
me most about Paul Skeins is, Yeah, he can throw
the ball one hundred miles an hour, but at the
same time, he can command the baseball. He knows what
he's doing out there at twenty one, twenty two years
(14:33):
of age.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I thought it was really impressive to see that.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
But I'm not as worried about the splitter as you, Joe,
because it's to me, it's not a true splitter.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah again, I haven't This is observations from watching on television.
I've never been seeing him in person, and I'm just
going through my years having done this in the minor leagues,
and you're right. I mean, those guys that I was
concerned about really did split their fingers. He'd see guys
walking around with a softball a lot of time. Most
of the time there was starters too. There were starters,
but they would walk around with the softball so that
(15:03):
they can split their fingers even wider. And then when
they got into regular baseball was easier to do that.
And I know it was a big thing. Roger Craig
brought it on man and it was it was dynamic.
And then of course you could talk about the Japanese
with their shooto, which is another form of this split,
and you can talk about you Darvish and I even
had Shugartoshi Hasagawa with the angels really good with that pitch,
(15:25):
putting hitters away. So it's very popular in the Asian
culture pitching market. So it just could be, you know,
the person himself is the proclivity to be injured whatever.
I don't know, but I saw it enough that I'm
always concerned about it. But with this guy here, Listen,
it's the real deal. I mean, what he did this
year phenomenal. The guy stays healthy, he's gonna be like
(15:47):
this for many years to come. And that's the only
thing you worry about. But you don't worry about it
to the point where you're protecting, where you just back
off on everything. If you get hurt, he gets hurt.
You try to do everything you possibly can in advance.
But the stuff is that good. The command was outstanding.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, listen, needs six foot probably about two thirty. You know,
not everybody should be treated the same way. To me,
he looks like he's built the last. I agree with
you on his armstroke behind him. When I first saw it,
I was like, whoa, you know, what's that? Not in
love with it. What he does is when he takes
the ball up, he brings his right elbow higher than
(16:24):
his right shoulder. So I call that picking the ball
up with your elbow. Most people will rotate before they
get to that point. Now, that in and of itself
is not a true red flag. The problem comes in
when you lift the ball and your elbow comes up
higher than your shoulder. It creates a timing problem. Basically,
you want that ball to be raised in the loaded
(16:45):
position as that front foot hits the down slope of
the mound. If you're lifting your elbow up, you're creating
a little more another beat there where it takes time
then to rotate up and you're what they call late,
and that creates all kinds of problems.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That puts a lot of strain in the shoulder and
eventually it gets into the elbow.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
We have some issues there, but if you really look
at Paul's skeins, yes, he brings the elbow higher than
the shoulder, but to me it's borderline. But he gets
the ball to the loaded position as that front foot lands,
so to me, he looks like he's on time.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
I remember when the Chicago White Sox drafted Chris Sale.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
He's got the same issue with that elbow comes up
and they had a lot of debate in their draft
room about whether we want to take Chris Sale because
we don't know whether this is sustainable or he's an
injury waiting to happen. And they came down the side
of the fence that you know, it is borderline, but
it's good.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And Chris Sale has had a heck of a career yeah,
you know.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I know he's hurt, you know, but he was in
the mid thirties by then and has come back unbelievably well.
But to me, Joe, I think that the mitigating factor
here is I think he's on time, even though it
looks a little funky and all. But by the way,
he also has a very low release point for a
guy who's six foot six, he's got a five and
a half foot release point.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
He's got a lot of max Scherzer actually in his delivery.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And that plays, let me tell you, especially when you're
throwing one hundred miles an hour to have that vertical
attack angle. So again, like you, Joe, I saw that
little hitch if you want to call it that and delivery,
and I'd like, huh, I'm not sure I like that.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
But when you really break it down, I think he's okay.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And like you're saying, that's a big part of his
success too, he's at that point. I don't know how
long he's been throwing exactly like that, but I bet
it's been for a while and you're not going to
change that, and you don't want to change it, and
like sureser, like the ball comes out of their shirt
almost it almost comes out of their right part of
their shirt, the right chest area. And there's deception involved,
which is outstanding. All these things are factors in him
(18:40):
being as good as he is. I have seen the
tunneling thing where the ball comes out of the same
spot and all of a sudden the pitches do so
they disperse on such a wide margin that from a
hitter's perspective, what am I swinging at here? So there's
so much to like about him. I hear him talk.
He's a great kid. I wish him nothing but the best.
(19:00):
I'm just answering questions. These are the concerns that would
have and you would watch him with. But I don't know.
You'd have to bet on this kid in the future.
He's so successful collegiately comes here and nails it in
this first year. Just be curious to watch this proceed.
I don't think you're gonna all of a sudden see
(19:21):
young pitchers trying to throw like him. That'd be hard
arm delivery to replicate. I've always felt a lot of
times really great players do things in an indigenous manner
to them, and I've used the example even like say,
go back to Stan Musual with his batting stance or
Julio Franco with his batting stance. There's different things that
really good players. Bob Boom the way he sat on
(19:42):
the ground with his butt on the ground. Guys that
are really good at what they do sometimes do things
a little bit differently than everybody else, and it's a
part of their success.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And one more thought on Paul Skans.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I'm really curious to get your take on this, Joe,
and we will do this right after this quick break.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Is there such a thing as throwing too hard?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Because you have seen velocity increase in league Baseball and
Paul Skeens.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Is at the top of the chart.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Is there a correlation between velocity and injury risk?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Will dive into that right after this. By the way,
how about the start.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Of Paul Skenes' career, even going back Joe in the
last year and a half. You know, he wins the
College World Series at LSU. He's the number one pick
in the draft. He signed the highest signing bonus in
Major league history, you know, a one to one pick
by the Pittsburgh Pirates. He starts the All Star Game
after just eleven major league starts and now he's Rookie
(20:47):
of the Year and a cy Young Finalists, just amazing.
Kind of reminds me of Chris Bryant and the start
that he get off to, right, you know, number two
overall pick, and then Rookie of the Year, then World
Series Champion, MVP. I mean, it doesn't get much better
than what we've seen.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Paul skeens, No, it's phenomenal. And you always skeptical, not
having scouted him, not knowing the guy. So when all
of a sudden all this stuff starts happening, you're watching curiously,
like really, and then you watch him throw even one
game or a couple innings. I picked it up on
the tube one time. I said, Wow, that is really legit.
(21:22):
And like I said before, the one thing that would
be concerning I thought, But then I'm thinking, my god,
he's been probably throwing like this for a long period
of time. He might have a preciously good workout routine,
all these things that I don't know, we don't know
that he does behind the scenes that permit him to
be that great. And then again, with all of that
being said and done, the command of his fastball to
(21:44):
me sets all this stuff up. If he did not
command his fastball as well as he did. Hitters might
be able to be more patient, they might be able
to recognize things sooner, but having to worry about that,
and as long as that command stays in place, he's
going to continue to be this difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I mentioned velocity, Joe, and one thing I like is
to see pitchers kind of grow into their velocity naturally.
I'm always scared when I hear about seventeen eighteen year
old kids throwing upper nineties. You know, the body just
hasn't really been fully formed to handle that kind of stress.
And Paul Skeens is one of these guys, and Blake
(22:20):
Snell is another one who came into velocity later.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
This guy went to Air Force as a two way player.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
He was a catcher, you know, he didn't become a
full time pitcher really until he went to LSU, where,
by the way, he had Wes Johnson, former Major League
pitching coach, as his pitching coach at LSU.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So I like the fact that a he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Pitched out the way kids with great arms tend to
be by the time they even before they get drafted,
and his velocity came later. You know he grew he
was a great hitter, and I think that the velocity
that he has now we do have to talk about
that because it's it's upper tier.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I went back and looked at the last four years,
and his.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Velocity this year average in ninety eight point eight, which
is incredible. So I looked at the last four years.
There's been six pitchers who average ninety seven point three
and above. Starting pitchers, Hunter Green, Spencer Streyder, Sandy Alcantra,
Garrett Cole, Grayson Rodriguez, Jared Jones, and now you have
(23:20):
Paul Skens. Obviously, Joe, there's a lot of injuries there,
and we're talking about those pictures. And you go back
over the last let's say, the last ten years, similar seasons,
rookie seasons, throwing one hundred and thirty to one hundred
and forty innings with velocity and a high strikeout rate.
You've got Walker Bueller, Spencer Stryder, Jacob de Gram and
(23:41):
Paul Skens. I mean, listen, there is a correlation. We
can't ignore it, Joe, between velocity and injuries. The harder
you throw, the more stress you have. The more stress
you have, the more likely you are to be hurt
at just an overall fact. But I do like the
fact that a unlike Bueller and de Gram, he came
(24:03):
into the major leagues or at least professional baseball healthy.
Those two guys had Tommy John surgery the year they
were drafted. And the fact that again he wasn't a
pitcher only his whole life, you know, that really appeals
to me.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, I didn't even know honestly about the catching perspective
or component when you said that. I mean, and I'm
thinking about Troy Percival when we first got Percy on
the mound, and his arm did a lot of that
stuff behind him also, But Percy was relief pitcher obviously,
and he threw very, very hard and had tremendous deception
with the high lay kick. So it happens. But you again,
(24:39):
starting pitcher throwing that hard that consistently, it just seems likely.
And the examples you gave are perfect examples. It just
has to happen at some point. How does the arm
survive all that unless the guy's just a freak it
it's hard to understand de Grom and all those people. Wow.
(25:01):
So moving forward, probably his workout program, and I'm sure
the pirates are involvement back to LSU. Once he established
this this consistent velocity, and they had to start looking
into this and try to really figure out how do
we maintain this and keep this guy healthy and well,
not that anybody else doesn't, but like you said, this
(25:22):
guy was not hurt coming into it like the other
guys had gotten there out their first Timmy John prior
to that's it. That's the key, that's the secret list.
I don't know the answer to that at all. I
don't even know if anybody does. But if I'm the
pirates are really digging deeply on that, I don't think
the answer is to throw less or monitored number of
(25:42):
pitches and all that other stuff that doesn't seem to
work anyway physically, workout wise, whatever works for this particular fella,
I would stay focused in there, but I would not
baby him on the mound.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I'm glad you brought that up, because we do tend
to think that's the answer, and we really don't know.
In fact, the other day I had a conversation with
a major league player person guy, and is exactly exactly
what he said was, we just don't know when it
comes to pictures being hurt. And I think that that
took a lot of intelligence to admit that no matter
(26:15):
what mitigations teams come up with, they really don't know
what causes injury. And there are outliers just in terms
of genetics and DNA, you know. I think justin Verlander,
Nolan Ryan have been those kind of pictures you can
throw hard and have a long career. It's been done,
so that is to me, Joe, I think it's a
great point what you made here that you know, just
(26:36):
cutting back on the number of pitches alone or the
number of innings, we're saying that's not working. I mean,
it doesn't mean you go to the opposite extreme and
just run guys into the ground the way they did
in the sixties and the seventies. But if anybody tells
you they know what the answer is, just don't believe them.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
I'm with you, I don't believe them. And that's just
like the third time three of the batting. What I
know statistically is it shakes out. But I don't know
how much time is spent on teach pitchers how to
get through the third time through. And that begins into
minor leagues Collegiately speaking, most of these guys do get
that opportunity. If you're good in the college, the coach
is not taking you out of the game. You're going
(27:15):
to pitch a big number, You're going to pitch more
deep into the game. So there there's got to be
some success. Although the hitters aren't of the same caliber,
of course, but that would be my main objective. I
think two things teach teach pitchers, and I've talked about
with James Shields. I love Shields, these shields, but a competitor.
(27:36):
But when he had to work too hard for his
house early, like exposes change it really like in the
first inning too often. I was always concerned if he
came out he's stow in ninety three to ninety four,
ninety five, I would be concerned because I would think
that that's going to impact the second, third, fourth, fifth
inning at some point because either he's too jacked up,
he's over amped right now, velocity's too high, and then
(27:57):
I got to work really hard to get my ouse early,
and I'm showing everybody everything I got in the first
and second inning. I loved on the utilization of the
fastball early. I do. I love the utilization of the
fastball early to spots, not just necessarily just throw it
right down the middle. Teach your guys to spot it
up and really learn how to get quick outs. That's
(28:17):
where the quickouts occur. Early count fastball is located, and
in that situation you might get the ball in play
or you want to get the bomb play and everybody's
trying to mispats. I understand that, but you can't strike
somebody else till you get to two strikes to get
to your third one. So I like the idea of
fastball command, like the idea of not working so hard
for your outs early and really using that as a concept.
(28:40):
And then with that in the minor leagues, I would
encourage my young starters two pitch the third time through
to learn how to do this, to learn how to
be more creative, to learn how to make maybe save
something where that one, two, three, and four hitter the
third time through, I see them and make it part
of the developmental plan. I don't know how much that's discussed.
(29:00):
I don't think it's discussed at all, but that would
be a big part I think. And then the result
would be better bullpens that have less work to do, Joe.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Earlier I mentioned the San Francisco Giants and Buster Posey
is now their point guy running this organization. Have you
had a chance to kind of dive into what Buster
has been trying to do so far with the Giants?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Honestly, I have not.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Honest it's pretty interesting, And actually I started thinking about
this in terms of players now basically having the keys
to the car when it comes to running major league teams,
and it's been a while since they've been trusted to
do that. Now you've got, you know, starting with Chris
Young in Texas. Obviously they won the World Series a
year ago. Chris gets has taken over in Chicago with
(29:42):
the White Sox. He's got a huge job ahead of him.
And now Buster Posey. So we get former players now
making decisions, and in Buster's case, he's bringing back some
of the people that he knows from his playing days
in decision making positions. Danny Evans, his agent, Jeff Berry,
Randy Winn. But it's interesting because whenever anybody gets hired,
(30:03):
questions are always about analytics, right and how much you're
going to use it. And I almost have to start
with this preface Joe that everybody is using analytics. This
is not an either or scenario. Okay, everybody wants them.
It's part of the game. It has been for years.
It's a matter of how much you emphasize them. Do
(30:24):
they drive your decisions or do they influence your decisions?
And Buster Posey has some really interesting things to say that.
Remember he's got a veteran manager there in Bob Melboyne,
and he said, look, we're going to use analytics. And
I've already talked to Bo mell about this, and hey,
how do we want the flow of this to be.
(30:44):
Do we want it to be let's let the projections
spit out, but we think it should be you look
at it and then you write the lineup, or you
look at the lineup and then we look at the projections. Ultimately,
I'll leave that up to him. My sense is I
want my manager that's using his years and years of
experience to write the lineup. And I thought this last
(31:05):
part here, Joe is really interesting about, you know, decision making,
analytics and the manager and that intersection. Ultimately, I do
want to leave it to him. This is Posey talking
about Bomel again. I just think it's important for him
to have that authority and for the guys on the
field to know that, hey, this is the guy that's
(31:27):
leading the charge for us, and we're going out there
to battle for him and he's got.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Our back through all of this. How about that perspective.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
How about an amen? A right? That's that's beautiful right there.
That's exactly that is well, put that in my for
my sensibilities. That's exactly right. And this is not disparaging
to any part of a baseball operation. That's just the
way it should be. The leader is present, he's there
(31:58):
all the time when you talk to him. When a
player talks to him and he answers the player, he
answers with confidence. The manager does because he has the
authority to speak to the player freely without having to
consult somebody regarding what he's going to say to that
player right now. Because to hire this guy in the
(32:18):
first place, this manager, whomever is doing the hiring, you
have to have confidence in faith and you have to
have his back as he's doing what he's been assigned
to do, manage the baseball team, not be a middle
manager to manage the team. Yes, as a manager, you
could talk to anybody I don't care what the year
was we wanted. You always want information. You want the
(32:41):
best information. You want, give it to me, Give it
to me as much as you can, and then permit
me then to distribute it as I see fit. And
I'm going to consult you. Absolutely am in it. But
I would tell the analysts if you're really certain, like
one hundred percent, sort and please let me know. If
you're lukewarm, you could tell me you're lukewarm. I could
(33:02):
take that too. And if you're totally ambivalent, don't even
tell me about it. So when a guy comes up
to me and he's absolutely locked in on something, and
I really you know, I've got a good working relationship
with this dude, I think he's good. I'm in. I'm
absolutely in. But I've been involved in situations where the
people that you're getting this information from are really not
(33:25):
convicted and they don't have to answer any questions, and
they're sitting there and their work, and again, analytics provides
a safety and effort decision making. They're looking at large
sample sizes only, and they're not reading the tea leaves
of the day, which is really important, which are really
good manager is able to do so good for Buster.
I don't really know him that well, if at all,
(33:47):
but I'm here to tell I like the idea of
former guys, former players getting this opportunity to run organizations.
I think it's great, And furthermore, I like when the
player doing it came from that organization.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Well, Joe, let me let me have you speak to this.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
One part that really stood out for me because it
did take a former player to have this point resonate.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And that is the fact that as the player, the
guys in the field is he said, he has to
know that this is the guy who's leading the charge
for us. In other words, the manager is the one
who's making this decision. He's not implementing somebody else's decision
who's not accountable for those decisions. And in Buster's words,
(34:32):
we're going out there to battle for him. He's specifically
talking about the leadership dynamic between the manager and the
player that's so important. And let's face it, it has
been diminished a little bit as the chain of command
has changed and the power nexus has changed. But Buster's
talking about something that's been a traditional part of not
(34:55):
just baseball but all sports that as a competitor. You
are out there trying to win for your coach or
manager and because you no, he's invested in trust in you,
and he's the one who's ultimately putting you in those
spots to succeed.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, and the manager has been empowered to say with
conviction to this player what he believes. I'm telling you,
it's gotten to the point now where nobody's very few
are able to do that because and it happened to
me towards the end there too, you have to almost like, well,
let me check with so and so first before I
really tell this person what I think, because am I
(35:33):
stepping on toes? Is there something else that I'm not
aware of here? That I really need to be careful with.
So you have all of this in the back of
your mind, but if you have the total empowerment that
you can be speak to the player with conviction, then
the players truly know who the leader is. And after all,
you see them every day, you're in the locker room
with them, you fly with them, hotel lobbies, you see
(35:55):
them all the time. It's an omnipresent moment. All this
guy's always there, and this is the source of our
direction and leadership. Absolutely, and I'm not diminishing by any
means the front office. I love working with really good
front offices where you get like this union thing going
on and they're coming to you with things. But there's
(36:15):
got to be the ability to disagree, and there's got
to be the ability to when you disagree and you
arrive at a conclusion that whatever that conclusion is, we
go out and we do this, and if it doesn't work,
there's not a whole bunch of fingerpointing that occurs afterwards. Yes,
the players need to know the manager is the guy,
and when they feel that, there's like you always read
(36:37):
the I'd run through the wall for this guy. Yeah,
that's kind of what it feels like when you're totally committed.
When a manager looks a player in the eyeballs and
he tells him something sincerely from he truly believes to
be accurate and true of this guy, the player's going
to run with that man and it's going to make
him either bolster him up, make him feel greater. He
gets the ambivalent answer, he's going to be as confused
(36:59):
as everybody else. Is hire your manager, empower your manager,
support your manager, and then he does the same thing
with your players.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, it'll be interesting how it turns out.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
The Giants obviously have done a one eighty, you know,
under far Hans Aedy. It definitely deep into analytics and
playing percentages. And I like what I've heard so far
from Buster Posey. It'll probably take some time to really
change the culture, but I like the fact that he
knows what he wants the Giants to be. He seems
(37:28):
very determined and assured of the direction he wants to go,
So that's going to be an interesting watch.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Hey.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I talked earlier about what do you want to be
when you grow up?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
That's a question we hear a lot about kids.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
There's been a poll about that in different countries and
I found the results fascinating.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
We'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Next, Okay, Joe, I'll ask you the question when you
were a kid, what did you want to be growing up?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Wow? I was just discussing this a couple of days ago.
How about this is weird? But I wanted to be
a bus driver or a truck driver because I thought
the idea of driving somewhere, being on the road, going
places was always attractive to me. I loved the lines
in the middle of a highway, the passing lines, the
(38:28):
broken line. That to me was always attractive. There was
an allure to that. So I thought, as a kid,
if I can do something like that, that means pretty much,
you know, the United States was open to me. I
thought about driving to Florida or driving out west. I
always thought about going somewhere. I thought about going somewhere
via a vehicle, and I was the driver, and I thought,
(38:51):
what better way to do that than to drive a
bus or to drive a truck. How about that?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Now I understand the whole RV fascination exactly right. And boy,
you were cut out for all those years in the
minor leagues. Childhood dream come true. You just left the
driving to somebody else.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Absolutely, That's that's true, man. And I still like, just
drove down from Pennsylvania to Tampa two days to eight
hour days, beat up a little bit by the time
you get here, but still I enjoy that. There's a
there's this end component of that where you get lost
in your driving, and of course sometimes it gets a
little hectic around big cities. However, when you get out
there on the open road, there's something adventurous about that
(39:30):
and free about that that. I think that's probably what
my allure was back in the day.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Very cool for me. It was always writing. I always
love writing. I don't know why I would, just I
just came out that way. I was just wired that way. Now, listen,
I was playing sports, you know, every single day, no
matter what the sport was, what time of year.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You know, that was I as a.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Kid, the ultimate passion. And of course you want to
do that for as long as you can. But you know,
I knew deep down that that's what I was wired
to do, so it was easy for me. And now
I'm looking at Pole's Joe. The world has changed so much.
And there was a poll recently of asking kids from
twelve to eighteen what they want to be when they
(40:12):
grew up. You have any idea what the number one
answer was. They allowed kids to pick basically up to
three and rather than pin them into one thing. What
do you think was number one dream job for a
kid between twelve and eighteen?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
A social media influencer.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Oh you are so good? Number one was a YouTuber.
Number two was a TikTok creator. Also, the top five
was an app or game developer, Instagram influencer, influencer.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
That's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
And thankfully doctor and nurse did finish third, but entrepreneur
was fourth, artists was fifth, and the game developer was sixth.
You have to go all the way down the seventh
to get the athlete. Wow, it's really fascinating that you
know that has become the goal. And actually, there was
(41:03):
a poll in twenty twelve that asked the same question
in China of Chinese teenagers as opposed to American teenagers.
The American teenagers number one answer was a vlagger, a
video blogger. Right China, it was an astronaut, and teacher
(41:25):
was second. Vlogger was last. Interesting, it's fascinating that this
generation is now growing up understanding that you can achieve fame, success,
money very quickly, and in many cases, Joe, it seems
very easily. And a lot of them are making money
(41:46):
as teenagers online by promoting products, selling products, whatever. So
there is an entrepreneurial spirit to it. But the danger
to me is that you're so far into the rabbit
hole teenagers spending an average of five hours a day
on social media that the other world, virtual world, it
becomes your world. And this is the first generation is
(42:08):
growing up with this being the carrot that's driving them.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Wealth without work. I mean, that's one of the readiest
sins there is, and that always concerns me, man, and
it is a big concern. I love the Chinese kids' answers.
And as you were talking about this, I wrote down
liberal arts. It's just a thing of the past, and
I still would love to see a resurgence in that,
only because I think it creates a more complete human being.
(42:34):
And you talk about the liberal arts normally that's by
the time he got to college. Just and again, what
that means is that you become conversant on a variety
of different subjects and not just one particular thing that
you try to become good at. That should happen eventually,
but to expose yourself to a wider foundation or base
just makes you more interesting. It's just a more interesting person.
(42:55):
It's somebody that understands is I think you become more
apathetic naturally, there's all different positive just what you did
as a writer and reader and those kinds of things.
And I was and it's not going to happen, but
there'd be so wonderful even even if started in high
school bring the term up and really promote that kind
of an education is more more as compared to a
(43:17):
specific specialized education at an early age. To me, that's
it's just strong. It's just it's just not right. We're
developing people that again they think that they can get
they want not only yet, but they want things more
easily without having earned them or worked for them, or
gone through a lot of failure to get to that
particular moment. All that stuff is important to really create
(43:38):
the well rounded individual that we're looking for to lead
us down in the future. So that's that's my concern.
It's a very superficial method to a success that I
just don't it's just it's just it's just very dispariting,
I think. So I'd love to see more advocacy for
liberal arts, liberal arts educations and what that means, and
(44:01):
then get into your specialized areas you've really brought in
your base.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, and I know you're a big fan of Da Vinci.
When I was growing up, the phrase that I that
really caught my attention and I was so fascinated by
it when they would use the phrase he's a renaissance
man or a renaissance woman, right, and that's what you're
talking about. I remember Mike Reid, defensive tackle at Penn State,
was also a concert pianist. Yes, I thought that was
(44:26):
so cool, and that was, you know, if not a goal,
it was something that you admired and maybe strive for.
It's interesting that when I talked about China and Joe,
because all the kids are on TikTok, we get it.
And here in the States, the algorithms are built so
that you basically keep going down this rabbit hole of
you know, dance videos and it basically it's it's designed
(44:49):
to have you hooked on what you're already watching and
different versions of that. While the version that they have
in China is more educational, it's not designed to keep
you on and on and on watching the same thing
that are just vacuous and you don't use your mind.
But it's meant almost like turning the page of a
newspaper where you don't know what's on the page, and
(45:12):
you may come across the story you otherwise would not
have read and say that's pretty cool. So they are
presenting you not by following an algorithm, by what's going
to hook you on the same thing different versions, but
giving you. Hey, you should check this out because this
is interesting, even though it's a little bit different. I
think that's fascinating that the genes are giving their own
(45:34):
teenagers a different version of what we have here.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
It's definitely it's a plan. I mean, definitely has to
be a subversive component to all of that. You know,
we hear about that all the time. You've read about that. Yeah,
we are just not feeding our kids very well right now, mentally,
we're not. We're not doing that at all. It's a
huge concern, you know, to pop culture the way it
is it is, it's a very superficial method, and you
(46:01):
have to be concerned as parents are a concerned the future.
You have to be concerned about that too. And why
just defending our group. I mean, yeah, we had a
good time, and there was a lot of stuff going
on in the seventies and there's a lot of superficiality
going there too. But you know, the collegial component of
the whole thing was really important, and when you went there,
(46:23):
it was more about free thinking and not being influenced
in the manner that a lot of universities do now,
right down to the point where faculties are so slanted
in a really strong liberal direction, and a more conservative
method is not being really taught or concerned about. So
there's all this kind of influence and going on to
(46:44):
that I think is concerning as supposed to more balanced approach.
It's just imbalanced. Everything's imbalanced, and it's all made way
too easy, and the thought of the ability or the
the attempt to really earn some things doesn't seem to
be as important anymore. And the edification's got to be
immediate comes from you know, how we get our food
(47:06):
if well, we just drove down and we walk into
any any like gas station, big service station, and you
walk in and you look at the food choices that
we make, just on all the racks and all the walls,
and you talk about why there's an obesity concern in
the United States. It's all it's right in front of
our very eyes, but nobody's paying attention, and eventually, if
(47:27):
we're not careful, it's really going to come and bite
us in the butt very hard. So yes, I can
understand why the Chinese are doing that for their kids
while they're attempting to influence our kids in a much
more negative manner.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
One of the reasons I bring this up, Joe, is
how it relates to baseball, because what you're talking about
really is something that I've noticed as well. I don't
know how you didn't know anybody didn't notice that, the
lack of diligence. As you said, people want things easy,
they want a quick fix, they want to hack. What
about the reward of working on something through diligence, And
(48:02):
I think that defines the game of baseball. Baseball is
not an easy game to play, right. There's a long
learning curve. You just don't walk on the field and
become great. Even the best players in the world go
to the minor leagues, but even as a youth there's failure.
You have to deal with what's wrong with that? And
I just worry that the participation of the game will
(48:25):
decline because it is not an instant gratification type of sport.
It takes diligence and until that that ethic comes back
that some things are worth working at. I just worry
about the participation of the game.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
That's a great comp that's a great way of putting
it your hundred percent right. It is a very very
difficult game. It's really hard. Baseball is really hard, and
from the hitting perspective, it's gotten even more difficult. Out
of all the parts of the game, that's the one
that really is accelerated. And I listen, I'm the wrong
(49:02):
guy to talk to to appease a lot of the
minds today because the minor leagues are fabulous and the
fact that we have virtually almost eliminated minor league baseball
and really reduced it to what it is, that is
really where your craft has learned. I know there's a
lot of expenditures there that kind of don't make sense
because you're not per team, You're not going to get
that many major league players, but you're going to get
(49:24):
a lot of major league coaches, managers, scouts, etc. Maybe
even some front office people, announcers, whatever. There's a lot,
there's a lot of complementary components of this that weren't
even talked about or considered. So, yes, it's a hard
game to be really good at to have your body
constantly perform in a way so that your mechanics are
(49:46):
in order on a nightly basis. I've talked about this
and everyday major league player people have no idea how
hard that is to be. That is really hard to
be that good every night. If you look at a
Soto as an example, to be that good every night
is not easy. Now maybe it came more nationally to him, whatever,
but not easy because a part of that is the
mental anguish that is concerned with that. So yes, the
(50:09):
earning component I got. I just one of the biggest
disappointments I've had over the last several years is the
kind of almost like I said, the elimination of minor
league baseball, how important it is and what's being taught there,
and on the level that it's being taught there, and
all the great lessons learned by being there, and the
difficulty of being there, the bus rides, the amount of
(50:29):
meal money. I know, there's been a big concern about
housing and how some minor league players more recently complained
about the fact that they couldn't afford it. Who could.
When you're in the minor league, man, you couldn't afford anything.
You just had to scrap. You had to try to
save money and the off season by doing a job
and keeping a couple of bucks, or having you calling
your dat up and having a Western Union use some
fifty bucks when you really needed in Bakersfield. I mean,
(50:52):
this is all good stuff. I don't understand why that's
not considered important anymore. The facilitation of everything really kind
of is almost like the ruination.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Well, Joey, you always bring us so a fine conclusion
to the episodes of the Book of Joe And hopefully
you've got something today that hits on this theme of
either diligence or reward hard work. Usually you find an
amazing way of tying everything up.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
What do you got today?
Speaker 3 (51:19):
I have three of them. Actually, they're all interconnected, and
they do honestly blend right in Weirdly, I got to
give you all three because they all they're all germane
to what we just talked about. Number one, success is
blocked by concentrating on it and planning for it. Success
is shy. It won't come out while you're watching. That
(51:42):
was Tennessee Williams. And that's so true. If you're always
waiting for the golden ray of sunshine to occur, it's
not happening, man, But then all of a sudden, you
wake up one day and pum, the sun's right in
your face. Success is shy. It won't come out while
you're watching. I love that and then two more to
your point, experience the name men give to their mistakes, right.
(52:04):
I mean, if you really want to formulate or compile
this large cliche of experience, you've got to make a
ton of mistakes, and you got to look stupid, you
got to embarrass yourself sometimes, and you got to just
like how do you even wake up in the wonder
how do you get to this next point? That's what
experience is. And the last point from Kim Blanchard, the
(52:26):
key to leadership is influenced, not authority, and that's something
we talk about all the time. So I mean that's
kind of like with Busters talking about in San Francisco specifically,
and making mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay
to go out there and try something and screw it
up time and time again, because you know what, eventually
when it does work, while it's so satisfying and compelling.
(52:51):
So those are my three. I think we're on the
same page. And I love the fact that that success
is shy.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
I love that all really really good the failure, especially
for young people, and I try to tell them all
the time, go ahead and make mistakes.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
That's where you're learning.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
You know, everybody wanted to be a finished product right away,
but you become that finished product. Not by being good,
certainly helps, but by making mistakes so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Who is that from again? That was that was the
Tennessee Williams.
Speaker 3 (53:19):
But the Oscar Wilde was experienced. The name Oscar, the
name men give to their mistakes is experience. Great.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Great way to end it, Joe, great job. We'll see
you next time on the book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
You two brothers. Thanks man,
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