November 17, 2025 • 40 mins
Bangs. Braids. Big chops. Hair is more than style — it’s storytelling. Celebrity hairstylist Vernon François, who’s worked with icons like Lupita Nyong’o, Serena Williams, and Solange Knowles, joins Simone to explore how our hair shapes confidence, reflects our inner transformations, and helps us feel seen. From childhood insecurities to red carpet reinventions, this is a conversation about self-love, freedom, and the beauty of becoming who you are.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Today on the bright Side, we're stepping into the world
of celebrity hairstylist Vernon Francois. He's showing us how a
hair transformation can set us up for a full life
transformation too.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Whilst you may think it starts esthetically with the hair,
it actually starts with self and your environment, your lifestyle,
the choices, the people who you're listening to. It all
has a profound impact on how you then go on
that trajectory for a better version of yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm simone voice, and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine. Hi, welcome back to the bright Side. I
am so glad you're here. I actually have a quick
story to tell you before we get into today's conversation.
When I was a local news reporter, more than one
(00:49):
boss told me they didn't like my curly hair on air.
So I started to wonder, where did this idea come from?
That natural hair, curly hair, braithe and locks aren't acceptable
in the workplace, and I wondered if anyone else was
feeling the same way. Well, that curiosity took me to
places I never could have imagined, like sitting across from
(01:12):
Kelly Clarkson on her national talk show. I'll be honest,
I never intended to become a natural hair activist, but
standing alongside other black news anchors to raise awareness about
hair discrimination was one of the proudest moments of my career.
Suddenly I wasn't being singled out anymore. I was actually
(01:33):
part of something bigger. Long before that moment, a stylus
named Vernon Francois made me feel the same way, even
though I had never sat in his salon chair. I
just knew that from Afar I felt seen, supported and
never alone in my hair journey. Well, Vernon is my
guest today, which feels like a full circle moment. Born
(01:57):
in the UK, Vernon became one of Hollywood's most sought
after hair architects, redefining natural hair on the red carpet
with show stopping looks for women like Lupita Niango, Solange
and Serena Williams. And I call him a hair architect
because he brings this otherworldly structural element to the hairstyles
(02:17):
that he creates. So today he's taking us behind the
velvet rope to explore what our hair really says about us.
Why feeling seen starts with seeing yourself and which big
box store is surprisingly his go to for supplies. So
if you've ever wondered what goes into crafting a headline
worthy hair story, he'll be fascinated by today's conversation. Let's
(02:41):
get into it with Vernon Francois. Well, Vernon francois, welcome
to the bright Side. I did, ye, I was.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yes, he did. Okay, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm so happy to have you. You know. My intention
for today's conversation is to talk about hair as a
tool for transformation. It's something that's come up in my
own life. Okay, and we'll get into that please, But
first I want to start by actually playing a clip
for you. God. This is from the yeah, well you'll
hear it. So this is from the show fleabag.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Oh in England. Yeah, I know the hair. I know.
This is so okay, going.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, let's play it.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Don't blame me for your bad choices. Hair is in everything?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Wow? What? Hair is everything?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
We wish it wasn't so we can actually think about
something else occasionally, but it is. It's a difference between
a good day and a bad day. We're meant to
think that it's a symbol of power, that is a
symbol of fertility. Some people are exploited for it and
it pays your fucking bills.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Hair is everything. Hair is everything? Yes, what do you
think about that statement?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I've always said and I will continue to say, especially
in the field that I work in, and that hair
is actually, singly the most important thing, the image that
we put together. If she may have or he or
they may have an incredible outfit, face might be done,
but the hair isn't given. I think you see that
in the pictures the individual doesn't feel great. Not only
(04:15):
does it show, but more importantly you feel it.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
How old were you when you first realized this about hair?
That hair truly is that foundation when it comes to
a sense of self.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
My outlook in life was because of that one singular
moment that I had at eight years old which started
me on this path to explore in the why. And
it was simply because of how I felt when my
mom was doing my hair, which was not great, that
was very Sasobastafarian and my mum is from Jamaica and
my dad is Grenadian. When I was born in the
(04:50):
UK and traditionally every weekend was getting your hair done.
You would sit down the rise and piece would be
cooking on the stove. You'd wash your hair and then
you'd section it in big doodoo plants we used to
call it, and you twist it and then you get
the food done and eat your food and then come
back and have your hair braided. That was like ritual
in our house. And I remember one day that happening,
(05:10):
and it was just torture. It was so painful. You
would sit between my mom's legs and she would get
the comb and then you know, use part in it,
and it's just like to the side and your eyes
are watering, and she's pulling in the day and it's
just not a pleasant experience. Even talking about it, my
arm pis getting like wet. And so I remember specifically
(05:32):
looking in the mirror and being really underwhelmed by the result.
A polite person like mom wanted to do to me
the pain that I went through for this result. I
was like this, these don't seem to match up. And
so she was like, if you don't like it, go
out and do it yourself. And I was like, fine,
(05:54):
I'm going to go and learn how to break to
make sure that this is no longer torturous. For me,
surely you must be to braid and it not be painful,
like you don't have to be so discomforting. And on
the pursuit of that was the reason how I landed
where I've landed, which is working from the act of
being kind and gentle and intentional and caring and still
(06:15):
achieving the optimum with what you already have, because what
is already there is already beautiful. And I just realized
every time someone sits in my chair, I would go
back to the moment with how I felt. And that's
how I've remained consistent in what I do, because I
(06:35):
am the client.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
How did you want to make your clients feel? And
how do you want to make You're.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Trying to make me upset now and cry. I remember
sitting in the barber's chair as well, and you know
they were rough. You would go in the clippers were
half clean, and in the barbershops having big, full on
conversation which was very culturally enriching. It's that one of
the players is where you just live your best life.
(07:03):
Everyone is, everything is happening in there. And I remember
just sitting in there and he would never do my
shape up. How I asked. He would always take too
much hair off and I would always end up having
lines where my skin would be opened up basically from
the clippers because he was just it was in and out,
in and out. The haircut was good, but it wasn't
(07:25):
what I asked. And I think for those people who
I've had the privilege of working with will attest that
one of the big things that they enjoy about our
collaboration is my capacity to see them and to acknowledge
their existence in every fiber of their body. It's really important.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I actually think you just named the element of hair
that is so transformational. Like when you have a hairstyle
that feels like it's you, it feels like it embodies you.
It allows you to be truly seen by the world,
child to.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Be like, come one, now, let's go, cat, We're done.
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Everyone, Thank you everyone. But that's what it is, right,
It allows you to be truly seen.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
You know, conversations I've had before and other interviews that
I've had, people will ask and go, how do you
come up with these creations for Willow Smith or Lapida
Ormandela Stemberg, And I was like, I don't understand your question,
what do you mean how do I come up? Well,
you know, there were these amazing liberate styles that you
may not see around on people, and I was like
(08:35):
right for me and the people who I have the
privilege to work with, It's a very easy transaction. The
reason why you are enjoying what you're witnessing is because
it's done with authenticity. There's nothing that I have done
with the clients that I consistently work with where they
don't show up as their most authentic version of themselves.
(08:56):
And when you find a rhythm with somebody, yes, it's important,
and you keep the miview. It's beyond your wildest capacity
to know what you can create as an artist with
another artist that gives you the permission to be self.
It requires both of you to have courage and to
be seen. And it's really important that when you are
(09:16):
in this state of transitioning in whatever that is, Whilst
you may think it starts esthetically with the hair, it
actually starts with self and your environment, your lifestyle, the choices,
the people who you're listening to, the things you're watching.
It all has a profound impact on how you then
go on that trajectory for a better version of yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So it sounds like that exchange with your mom when
you were eight years old and she said, well, go
out and learn it yourself. It sounds like that really
galvanized this mission for you, right yes. And then you
just mentioned some of your celebrity clients Lupita Nyonggo, Angela Bassett,
Serena Williams, Amanda Stenberg. The list goes on, how did
(09:57):
you get from that place of being an ab year
old on a mission to now working with the best
actors in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
What I've learned in this journey that I'm on is
you are what you attract. It just happened to me
Lupeta at a cross path where she was seeking the
same thing that I was seeking, and we just made
a pact within minutes of meeting each other. And it's
just been timing and divine and I think we were
(10:25):
meant to align at the time that we did, and
we had a point of view, but we hadn't anticipated
it would be so transcendent in what it was doing,
because that wasn't the goal. It was actually, how do
you want to show up? Okay, cool, let's do that.
If you just open yourself out, you will continue to
not only learn about self, but learn about the people
around you. And when you want to do that, every
(10:48):
second of the day is an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
So coming back to pair as a tool for transformation, Yes,
So what are the questions that we should ask ourselves
when we're considering a big hair pivot?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
A consultation is the single most powerful thing we have
access to as a hair artist, and I don't believe
we lean into that enough to be able to ask
the questions that are needed to understand how to help
them on their journey, Like how are you feeling today?
It's a really important question. What happened yesterday? Oh how
(11:25):
are you dealing with that? You can learn so much
more about the character or what you're working for than
what they're asking for you. Most times people are asking
things that are unobtainable, unmanageable, and they need it in
that moment, but it's not actually going to be of
service for them. Wants to leave the door, and I
was like, if the client can never recreate in a
(11:46):
silent environment, if she leaves the door and count and
recreate what I've done, then I haven't done my job.
And so it's been mindful of managing expectations.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So I want to talk about the building blocks of
a hair reinvention. I'd say that client wants to make
a big transformation with how they present their hair. Yes,
where would you start?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So so funny you say that. So the first thing
that I observe is the walk, because they're walking to me,
So what does.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That tell you?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
How they're feeling, who they are, where they come from.
People have a slouch, Some people come and they're like
show their bodies down. Some people working very confident and
then sit in the chair and become very very vulnerable. Literally,
how someone shorts and stands and sits, it tells you
a lot about who they are and why they do
what they do. And you have to have the linguistic
(12:33):
intelligence to be able to recognize that as well, and
being able to look at how people shake your hand,
if they shake your hand or not, if they want
to have a close body contact. All of that really
gives you some significant signs of who they are and
potentially how this is going to go. And then it's
for you to go on that journey to either break
(12:55):
the ice cube or to offer a handout and go
I hear, I see you. You're safe with me. Let's
go in this journey even when clients sit in the
chair and they may sit and their hands might be
costed or their legs might because open language and close
body language really indicates how someone is feeling when they're
talking to you about these major moments that have impacted
(13:17):
their existence and how they deal with it and dealing
with it is very telling to how the essential you're
going to manage what you're going to do for them.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, let's take me for example, because I have been
getting very bored with my hair. I feel like I
haven't changed it in a while, and I just feel
this urge to do something radical with my hair. But
I don't really know where to start. Do I start
with a cut? Do I add length? Do I radically
change my hair color? What would what would you suggest
(13:48):
for me? Like, what's a game plan? How do I
figure out how to tackle my own hair transformation?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well? All the things that you just spoke to a
temporary So what is it that you're really bored with?
Is the question I would ask you. Life is not
being a new joy.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I guess I never thought about it that way.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Because your hair is an extension of that. So whilst
we take these radical, drastic moments meant something tragic is
happening or great is happening in our life. To lobby
your hair for color, it it's transactional and it's temporary. Yeah,
but if you're not really ready to go, actually, why
are you bored? You can't be bored because how your
(14:26):
hair looks. Your hair is an extension of choices you've made,
and so the boredom is extending from something else that
is a vibration of you making a choice that you
make now to have your hair this way.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not feeling these
feelings this like restlessness with my hair as much now
as I was probably six months ago. And if I'm
honest with myself, I was not really in a good
place mentally. I was depressed. I had just gotten into
a car accident, some other things were happening in my life,
and I was at this low point earlier this year
(14:57):
and feeling really discouraged about how this year was shaking out.
So you're right, and there's a connection there. There's definitely
a connection there.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Like your hair is external, it presents a perspective to
the world. You can use it as a protector, or
you can use it as a tool to invite conversation
to you. And so often when I do see people
walking on the street and I can just know that
this head, yes, I walk up to the God, you
look amazing and thank you for choosing yourself. Because you
(15:26):
can often see when people are living in their most
authentic being, and their hair is a big extension of that.
You can often also see when people are not and
they're conformed. It's not a bad thing, but you can
often see when people are conforming, and I feel where
you've arrived is realize that you've been conforming for so
long you actually don't even know where to start to
(15:48):
explore all the amazing wilderness about you. And your hair
is a big part of that, and often you can
get confused where all the hair should be the start,
And actually the hair is a ask thing that you
should be focusing on, because the reality is finding what
brings you joy, finding what brings you strength, Recognizing what
(16:08):
doesn't bring you joy or what is contributed to making
you feel so dark in these moments is really crucial
because if you're not dealing with that hand putting paint
on the wall is not going to address the elephant
in the room. So if you'd come to me and
you were in this moment and you had a car accident,
I would essentially go, okay, well let's not do the
big job today, but let's take more of than what
(16:31):
you wouldn't normally do. Let's start there, okay, because I
can start you on the journey, but the journey you
have the lead. I'm a guider for you, I'm a mentor.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
We've got to take a quick break. We'll be right
back with Vernon Francois. And we're back with Vernon Francois.
When it comes to hair color, are there certain rules?
Are there certain rules that you play with? Are there
certain rules that you love to break? Does everyone have
(17:03):
a perfect hair color match?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Well, I'm a redheaded black guy. I didn't know that
people like this until a couple of years ago, and
so thank you for your support. We love it. Are
you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
You're gorgeous?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
It's you know, it's I don't even know if we
have the time to unpack this here, but most of
my environment, people who are black, darker skin tones don't
have orange progression. Urburn hair, and so I was never
seeked out as somewhat attractive or desirable or beautiful until
I got older. And so I, even though I work
(17:39):
in an industry that thrives on people finding indivisionalism and
authenticity and beauty, I think one of the reasons why
I'm so good at what I do as I go
back to it, I know what it feels like to
not feel beautiful. I know what it feels like to
want someone to just hug you and tell you that
it's okay. I know what it feels like to be
abused physically, mentally, emotionally at home in your work environment,
(18:01):
with your trusted loved ones. And if there's anything that
I can personally do in this world is to never
make anyone ever go through that again. And so my
way of holding myself accountable and trying to do the
best as a public service is to offer that to everyone.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
What does your current hair say about where you are
right now personally? Because it's very expressive. You can't see
it necessarily if you're listening, but it's it's pink. I'm
seeing little PiZZ of.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Pink popping out, and that's intentional, Like I push it
so you see it hair like I have a hairline
and all that stuff. My hair has always been it's
like maybe five or six different patterns and textures in there,
and hair is well. I was going to disclose something.
I don't know if this is closing well, I just
I recognize the significance and the impact hair has. I
(18:52):
had one hair transplant and that changed everything for me,
my confidence.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
So tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I didn't know I was on a pursuit of trying
to invent something because I recognized that there was a
shortage in a service for a particular hair pattern that
didn't exist, and so hair transplants were being around for
a long time, but it wasn't able to sort of
plant it into the graphs of their scalp because I
(19:20):
had curls and blah blah blah blah blah, and so
I just went on this deep dive for many years
trying to go, Okay, well, I need to be a
part of inventing something for us. We the curl diaspora
is way greater than a straight and so anyone that
has a kink or a curl in the hair re
exists more than any other hair pattern, and in pursuit
(19:40):
of doing that, I was losing a lot of density
within my own hair. But I'd always want hat since
I was little, like I've never not been who I am.
But I realized the impact that losing my hair had
on my self confidence was way greater than I had
never anticipated or was facing myself. But once again, when
(20:01):
clients would sit in a chair, and whether they were
female or male, and would talk about hair loss for
many different reasons, I could sympathize with them because I
also was going through that with them, even though I
never communicated that. And so being a product of your
environment and also going on your own journey as for
self can really help you be a better mentor for
(20:24):
whoever it is you're trying to be of service to.
And so for me, I am when I had that done,
and it really changed how I show up just for myself.
It wasn't for anything else but myself. I think my
husband would tell you, I feel more attracted in a
way that I didn't know I needed to feel. And
(20:45):
so I never undermine and judge anyone for making choices
that impact sincerely how they feel, how they think about
they should feel. I get more concerned about why they're
making the choices based on what they've been exposed to
and what they feel is going to make them happy
versus actually what will make you happy.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Well, I can see just in the way that you
talk about this experience how transformative it was for you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And once I just told you that information.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Thank you. Thank you for trusting me with that when
I think about my own confidence with my hair. You
don't know this, but you actually had a great impact
on me from AFAR because I was an entertainment reporter
here in New York City when I started to see
a lot of your work on the red carpet and
(21:36):
I would interview some of the actors that you had
styled and had worked with. But then I also saw
the conversation that you were starting around natural hair and
texture online and it was liberating for me because I
was a news anchor on TV who felt pressure to
straighten my hair, and at times I even had bosses
(21:57):
explicitly tell me straighten my hair in the interview. I
one time interviewed for a job and the news director said, well,
I like your hair. I like your hair straight basically,
and the implication was you'll only get the job if
you're willing to straighten your hair, and so to encounter
someone like you who was giving all of us permission
to embrace our curls and natural texture, that was huge
(22:20):
for me. That was major. Do you even know the
impact that you've had in that sense?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Now I'm going to get emotional, so thank you for
sharing that. It makes total sense. My goal has always
been to show beauty and what that looks like. Yeah,
it's been a fight and a struggle, and I've been
so grateful for the women that I've aligned with that
(22:48):
are willing to walk courageously in self and trust me.
And we talk about world wars and pandemics. There's been
a beauty pandemic of self identity from the beginning of time.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Wow, I've never heard anyone say.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
That, And that's what I'm trying to help people realize
and change the blueprint. You do not have to diminish
a sense of self, of your character to walk in
the shoes that you know you should be walking in.
And I think we've arrived at a point in time
where we realize that if you're not able to show
(23:24):
up as your most evented self, then it's not a
place that you should be in. There was so much
more of the semantics around it, where you feel like
you had to take that job to survive and do
the thing. We can have those conversations, but the reality
is that you just need one person to show up.
And so when Lapiita started walking that carpet, it changed
so many people's perspective of how to show up. I
(23:46):
hadn't realized the impact that we were having because that
wasn't our intention. That intention was for her to feel seen.
And so thank you for sharing that, and I hope
that you continue to lead into that at the times
when you're feeling bored, because it's in those moments where
you will learn how to really afford yourself the privilege
(24:09):
to explore. Well.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
The courage that you have is contagious because it rubbed
off on me, and something really cool and magical happened.
Because of my own experience and my struggle with showing
up with natural hair on TV. I decided to bring
together other black women newscasters who had experienced the same thing,
and I put together this little photo shoot. It was
(24:34):
like twenty five to thirty of us maybe, and then
it got picked up by the Kelly Clarkson show. It
went viral and I was able to go on her
show and share my experience. But it was bigger than
my experience. It was all of us standing together and saying,
we deserve to be able to show up to work,
to deliver you the news, to give you the information
(24:55):
that you need, and do it in a way that's
authentic for us and how our hair grows out of
our heads. But I want to go back to what
you mentioned about Lupida, because I remember when you were
working with Lupita very closely on the Met Gala on
Black Panther, and when she walked out on those carpets,
(25:17):
her hair was revolutionary. What was the carpet the event
when you were able to really identify that and say, oh, wow,
we're really onto something here.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Oh, it was the met Gala, at first Met Gala together.
That's when people went crazy. People went nuts, people went crazy.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Can you describe that whole look for us that you
created for Lupita?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It was Nina Simone. Is that famous image of Nina
Simone from the side profile where her hair goes up
into like a pyramid and then she has these shells
hanging around and probably a braid of some sort like
a cone. That was one of many inspirations. But my
whole thing for the met Gala was and this is
a good thing and a bad thing sometimes when you
(26:00):
a creative bubble. I was like, oh, and gee, this
is my first met Gala. Metgala's like fantasy hair. It's
like ov god that it's wildest. It's a moment to
show up and to really be unapologetic. Oh my god,
this is amazing. That was literally all I had in
my mind. And she's extraordinarily intentional, very smart with collaboration
(26:24):
and knowing what she knows and knowing what she doesn't
know and seeking guidance from the professional while still having
a very strong vision about self. She's extraordinary aware of
who she is. So she will often say, oh, we're
doing the Metgala. Here are some inspirations. She will send
me a plant, she will send me a picture of something.
(26:45):
She'll send me something from Kenya or something from Mexico,
and then let me go on my wildest adventure and
come up with something. And she will just say, oh,
I want to feel tall. Oh. She will give me
words and I will go and run with that, and
vice versa. So I just showed up and I went
to build this mountain of just execution and fluid tea
(27:06):
in terms of blending the textures with like four different
textures on this sculptural headpiece that I built for her
that was towering off.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
How long did that creation take?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I build in real time, meaning that I can construct
something in the moment, but it takes me days or
weeks to figure out how I'm doing. So I go
walking out the park, I don't sleep. I walk them
around hardware stores, home depot for hours, just looking at tools,
thinking how I can manure like It takes home Deepot
literally Michael's Home Deepot.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
What I never expected you to say, home deeper? What? Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I was in Home Deeper the day for fashioning it
waits some of the best stuff ever.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Wait, what do you mean? What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
So I'm twenty eight and number seven, I know the aisles. Yeah,
it's really amazing craft craftsmanship. AM an architect.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
So what ends up in your shopping cart or home
depot as you're putting together.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Everything you can imagine? Give me give me one thing
I found. Do you use it like a pipe phae
cleaner or holder? So it's the things you put into
pipes like it's pham. Okay, yeah, but it keeps them insulated. Yeah,
and those phoneps are really good to build because they
are lightweight but have structure to it. And then you
use my weaving needle that I used to stitch hair
(28:26):
and sell hairing to stitch it onto the hair. I
very rarely use pins. I'm always sewing.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Oh interesting, I've seen you use a lot of thread
and yarn in your work.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
It's from self taught. The stitching is more secure, less discomforting,
more seamless, just as craft.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So you're telling me the key to our next hair
transformation could be at our local hardware store.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Oh it always has been. Let's just be real clear
about that. The key to your transformation is recognizing that
it's in your hands, like it's around you. But yeah,
So that was one of the most amazing looks that
I think really propelled me where people like, holy crap,
(29:10):
you are like not here to play around.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
So I'm gonna prepper you with some rapid fire questions.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Now I don't do well with those, but just letting you.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Know, Okay, we'll try our best. I'm gonna run a
couple of hair theories by you, starting with Isa. I
interviewed her last year and she says everyone should shave
their head once. Oh, agree or disagree? Absolutely agree? Why.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I believe it's really important that you free yourself of
this thing that you believe is a part of your identity,
your beauty and reconcile with the fact that it's just
an object that can be easily removed, and it forces
you to find other things and other attributes of yourself,
(29:58):
so you're not wholly relied on this thing that you
can flip and toss or build into shapes to find
a sense of self.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So there's a conversation happening on TikTok right now and
it's called the hair theory, and some users are theorizing
that right before an artist becomes famous, they do something
radical to their hair and they find this signature look
like Sabrina Carpenter and her bangs, for example. Do you
think there's something to that like having a signature look?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Absolutely. I used to work in music a lot, and
that would be one of the things we would sit
down and work with an artist and identity and food,
the creative direction as an artist enters into the spotlight
how they're able to differentiate themselves amongst all the other
things that existing in the same space. And hair plays
arguably the more important role in that exploration of identity
(30:52):
because it's the one thing that you can either be
consistent or be unconsistent with that will attract attention. And
so when I say that, I think, when you look
at adult Cha, I think, right now, I've been so excited.
I know the whole team shout out to you, doing
an amazing job because she has been extraordinarily like, just
so unconventional with consistency. It's brilliant because actually she's just
(31:16):
showing up. It's my eye, it's who I am. I
can be a chameleon and do all these things and
still show up. I think it's brilliant, Like she has
just put a middle finger up to all of that
notion that you have to have consistency. Does consistency work?
I think we've been trained to acknowledge that it works,
And I think it's probably boxed a lot of artists
(31:38):
in because now they can't do anything other than that.
But yes, building an identity through hair, especially if you're
establishing yourself as an artist, even actors is a real thing,
and Lupita gets typecast with her hair. They keep asking
us to take her back to when she first came
onto the scene. I was like, well, you know, that
was ten years ago, and her hair grows, so.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
She's also a person. She grows.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
People are not looking at that. So then my coaggressions
and the racism that's prevalent in just not recognizing that
is a real thing. It's not singular to subpoena carp
and tota thing. It's Jennifer Anderson gets type cuss because
of how she looked in friends. So Jessica Parka that
that look is she doesn't have that. No one doesn't
recognize it, and no one wants to hire up if
(32:20):
she's not doing that, And so it's a good thing
and it can be a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I was going to ask you who is killing the
glam game right now, and you brought up Doci. I mean,
that's the woman who comes to mind for me when
I think about her Paris Fashion Week debut and all
of those looks. I'm obsessed with that black mullet that
she I know, I want that mullet so bad when
it comes to styling curly hair. I thank God for
(32:46):
the gen Z curl Talk gurlies, because I have learned
so much. Yes, thank you, Yes, thank you curl Talk.
What's one curly hair hack that all of us curly
girls should you're met with?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I don't know if it's a hack, but I would
love to challenge everyone to leave your hair to dry
naturally and live in that for twenty four hours and
see how you feel.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
So you're saying, don't diffuse it, just let us.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Leave your hand, let it dry naturally, twist or whatever
you want to do with it. But have you allowed
your hair to sit in its natural form? And how
does it make you feel? Really have that conversation with yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
That's good. I prefer to let my hair dry naturally.
I always better exactly all right? For this section, I'm
going to make a statement and you fill in the blank.
Oh okay, So I never leave the house without when
it comes to when it comes.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
To hair, I never leave the house without a hair tig.
That's right. Save, Yeah, that saved the day.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
When you ever, when I outside without a hair tie,
I'm like the other day I found like a luggage
strap from my bag and it was like carabineice and
I just wrapped it around.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I don't have hair, and I have a hair tie.
I have it all in it for somebody if someone
needs it.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Oh my gosh, the hairty angel.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, I've given it to people in the street before.
I can see people looking like, oh I have one.
I work in hair and my daughter to this morning.
I put one on their list every day.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Oh my gosh, I love that so much. Okay, every
person should keep Blank in their bathroom cabinet.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Leaving conditioner and a spray bottle with alkaline water.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Oh that's good. Okay, I'm going to try that immediately next.
If you see Blank on a product ingredient list, put
it back on the shelf.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
So I had my own product company. I learned a
lot about product ingredients. I also learned a lot about
product performance. I also learned a lot about consumer behavior.
And what I learned through this experience is the pandemonium
of accessibility trumps any ingredients, and so whether an ingredient
(35:14):
is toxic or not is relative to the desire of
the need of that individual to have access to the brand,
the product, or what they think that product is going
to do for them. I know a lot of people
intentionally by product full of silicone because they prefer how
it feels on their hair, knowing that it's not the
most comforting thing to have over a long period of time,
(35:35):
but they still actively go and get it. And so,
as an experienced business professional, the one ingredient thing has
no weight anymore because people are searching for these products
for different needs and will pursue it in respect of
what they think they need from it, irrespective of whatever
I say.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
And finally, I know you have a daughter, you are.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I do the one that I know of.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Stop, don't play around like that.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Does that happen to my family? I learned I had
a sister and during COVID the same age.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I learned I had a brother about fifteen years ago,
and I love him Jason. When it comes to my daughter,
I hope she knows her hair is blank.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
When it comes to my daughter, I hope that she's
not defined by her hair, which sounds very controversial for
someone like me to say, but I want her not
to be defined by this thing that people in the
world are going to validate you by. You have to
have a sense of your beauty, strength and compassion, and
your capacity to do whatever it is with or without
your hair.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Which goes back to what is saying about shaving her
hair correct correct, rays, never wrong, life rule number one
sixty two.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
She gets it because.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
This is the bright side. I like to end each
conversation by asking our guests, what are you celebrating right now?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Oh, that's a bit. I'm celebrating joy. What you are
witnessing right now is the best version that I've had
access to in myself. I now recognize how beautiful I am,
and it's afforded me so much more self confidence. I'm
relinquishing the imposture syndrome, which has been a big thing
for me, and I am extraordinarily excited to turn forty
(37:17):
this year.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
I'm just really happy that I'm here and I have
arrived here by being consistent.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Vernon, thank you so much for coming on the bright side.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Vernon Francois is a celebrity hairstylist and global brand ambassador
for Olaplex. Hey, before we wrap today's episode, I just
want to take a moment to reflect on our time
together at Shinaway last month and that unforgettable conversation with
Chrissy Tiegan. If you were there with us in person
at the Universal Studios lot in Los Angeles, or if
(37:57):
you listen to the episode at home. Either way, I
just hope you could feel how electric that room was,
hundreds of women coming together under one roof, laughing, celebrating,
and taking in Chrissy's honesty. She was so open about
her family's journey with type one diabetes after her son
Miles was unexpectedly diagnosed, and she admitted that she didn't
(38:20):
really understand how serious the disease was at first, but
she quickly realized that their lives were changing overnight, and
now over time, Chrissy has found this thriving online community
of support around T one d. Chrissy also shared how
important early detection can be. I mean, how amazing is
it that we can actually screen for this condition, And
(38:41):
that's why she's teamed up with Santafee to help spread
the word about screening for type one diabetes. It's such
a powerful reminder that knowledge really is everything, especially when
it comes to our health and our children's health. So
if that conversation with Chrissy resonated with you, take this
moment as a friendly reminder to talk with your doctor
to learn more about type one diabetes screening, and to
(39:02):
also visit screen for type one dot com to find
out how screening can help you better understand your family's risk.
And one more time, we just want to send it
a big thank you to Santa Fie for sponsoring our
live recording at shine Away and for making conversations like
this possible. Thanks, I'll talk to you soon, and until then,
keep looking on the bright side. The bright Side is
(39:28):
a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts and is
executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Simone Boyce. Production
is by ACAST Creative Studios. Our producers are Taylor Williamson,
Abby Delk, and Adrian Bain. Our production assistant is Joya Putnoy.
Acasts executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Maureen
(39:49):
Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine.
Ali Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for
iHeart Podcasts. Our theme song is by Anna Stump and
Hamilton Lakehouser.
Today on the bright Side, we're stepping into the world
of celebrity hairstylist Vernon Francois. He's showing us how a
hair transformation can set us up for a full life
transformation too.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Whilst you may think it starts esthetically with the hair,
it actually starts with self and your environment, your lifestyle,
the choices, the people who you're listening to. It all
has a profound impact on how you then go on
that trajectory for a better version of yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm simone voice, and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine. Hi, welcome back to the bright Side. I
am so glad you're here. I actually have a quick
story to tell you before we get into today's conversation.
When I was a local news reporter, more than one
(00:49):
boss told me they didn't like my curly hair on air.
So I started to wonder, where did this idea come from?
That natural hair, curly hair, braithe and locks aren't acceptable
in the workplace, and I wondered if anyone else was
feeling the same way. Well, that curiosity took me to
places I never could have imagined, like sitting across from
(01:12):
Kelly Clarkson on her national talk show. I'll be honest,
I never intended to become a natural hair activist, but
standing alongside other black news anchors to raise awareness about
hair discrimination was one of the proudest moments of my career.
Suddenly I wasn't being singled out anymore. I was actually
(01:33):
part of something bigger. Long before that moment, a stylus
named Vernon Francois made me feel the same way, even
though I had never sat in his salon chair. I
just knew that from Afar I felt seen, supported and
never alone in my hair journey. Well, Vernon is my
guest today, which feels like a full circle moment. Born
(01:57):
in the UK, Vernon became one of Hollywood's most sought
after hair architects, redefining natural hair on the red carpet
with show stopping looks for women like Lupita Niango, Solange
and Serena Williams. And I call him a hair architect
because he brings this otherworldly structural element to the hairstyles
(02:17):
that he creates. So today he's taking us behind the
velvet rope to explore what our hair really says about us.
Why feeling seen starts with seeing yourself and which big
box store is surprisingly his go to for supplies. So
if you've ever wondered what goes into crafting a headline
worthy hair story, he'll be fascinated by today's conversation. Let's
(02:41):
get into it with Vernon Francois. Well, Vernon francois, welcome
to the bright Side. I did, ye, I was.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yes, he did. Okay, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm so happy to have you. You know. My intention
for today's conversation is to talk about hair as a
tool for transformation. It's something that's come up in my
own life. Okay, and we'll get into that please, But
first I want to start by actually playing a clip
for you. God. This is from the yeah, well you'll
hear it. So this is from the show fleabag.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Oh in England. Yeah, I know the hair. I know.
This is so okay, going.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, let's play it.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Don't blame me for your bad choices. Hair is in everything?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Wow? What? Hair is everything?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
We wish it wasn't so we can actually think about
something else occasionally, but it is. It's a difference between
a good day and a bad day. We're meant to
think that it's a symbol of power, that is a
symbol of fertility. Some people are exploited for it and
it pays your fucking bills.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Hair is everything. Hair is everything? Yes, what do you
think about that statement?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I've always said and I will continue to say, especially
in the field that I work in, and that hair
is actually, singly the most important thing, the image that
we put together. If she may have or he or
they may have an incredible outfit, face might be done,
but the hair isn't given. I think you see that
in the pictures the individual doesn't feel great. Not only
(04:15):
does it show, but more importantly you feel it.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
How old were you when you first realized this about hair?
That hair truly is that foundation when it comes to
a sense of self.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
My outlook in life was because of that one singular
moment that I had at eight years old which started
me on this path to explore in the why. And
it was simply because of how I felt when my
mom was doing my hair, which was not great, that
was very Sasobastafarian and my mum is from Jamaica and
my dad is Grenadian. When I was born in the
(04:50):
UK and traditionally every weekend was getting your hair done.
You would sit down the rise and piece would be
cooking on the stove. You'd wash your hair and then
you'd section it in big doodoo plants we used to
call it, and you twist it and then you get
the food done and eat your food and then come
back and have your hair braided. That was like ritual
in our house. And I remember one day that happening,
(05:10):
and it was just torture. It was so painful. You
would sit between my mom's legs and she would get
the comb and then you know, use part in it,
and it's just like to the side and your eyes
are watering, and she's pulling in the day and it's
just not a pleasant experience. Even talking about it, my
arm pis getting like wet. And so I remember specifically
(05:32):
looking in the mirror and being really underwhelmed by the result.
A polite person like mom wanted to do to me
the pain that I went through for this result. I
was like this, these don't seem to match up. And
so she was like, if you don't like it, go
out and do it yourself. And I was like, fine,
(05:54):
I'm going to go and learn how to break to
make sure that this is no longer torturous. For me,
surely you must be to braid and it not be painful,
like you don't have to be so discomforting. And on
the pursuit of that was the reason how I landed
where I've landed, which is working from the act of
being kind and gentle and intentional and caring and still
(06:15):
achieving the optimum with what you already have, because what
is already there is already beautiful. And I just realized
every time someone sits in my chair, I would go
back to the moment with how I felt. And that's
how I've remained consistent in what I do, because I
(06:35):
am the client.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
How did you want to make your clients feel? And
how do you want to make You're.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Trying to make me upset now and cry. I remember
sitting in the barber's chair as well, and you know
they were rough. You would go in the clippers were
half clean, and in the barbershops having big, full on
conversation which was very culturally enriching. It's that one of
the players is where you just live your best life.
(07:03):
Everyone is, everything is happening in there. And I remember
just sitting in there and he would never do my
shape up. How I asked. He would always take too
much hair off and I would always end up having
lines where my skin would be opened up basically from
the clippers because he was just it was in and out,
in and out. The haircut was good, but it wasn't
(07:25):
what I asked. And I think for those people who
I've had the privilege of working with will attest that
one of the big things that they enjoy about our
collaboration is my capacity to see them and to acknowledge
their existence in every fiber of their body. It's really important.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I actually think you just named the element of hair
that is so transformational. Like when you have a hairstyle
that feels like it's you, it feels like it embodies you.
It allows you to be truly seen by the world,
child to.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Be like, come one, now, let's go, cat, We're done.
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Everyone, Thank you everyone. But that's what it is, right,
It allows you to be truly seen.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
You know, conversations I've had before and other interviews that
I've had, people will ask and go, how do you
come up with these creations for Willow Smith or Lapida
Ormandela Stemberg, And I was like, I don't understand your question,
what do you mean how do I come up? Well,
you know, there were these amazing liberate styles that you
may not see around on people, and I was like
(08:35):
right for me and the people who I have the
privilege to work with, It's a very easy transaction. The
reason why you are enjoying what you're witnessing is because
it's done with authenticity. There's nothing that I have done
with the clients that I consistently work with where they
don't show up as their most authentic version of themselves.
(08:56):
And when you find a rhythm with somebody, yes, it's important,
and you keep the miview. It's beyond your wildest capacity
to know what you can create as an artist with
another artist that gives you the permission to be self.
It requires both of you to have courage and to
be seen. And it's really important that when you are
(09:16):
in this state of transitioning in whatever that is, Whilst
you may think it starts esthetically with the hair, it
actually starts with self and your environment, your lifestyle, the choices,
the people who you're listening to, the things you're watching.
It all has a profound impact on how you then
go on that trajectory for a better version of yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So it sounds like that exchange with your mom when
you were eight years old and she said, well, go
out and learn it yourself. It sounds like that really
galvanized this mission for you, right yes. And then you
just mentioned some of your celebrity clients Lupita Nyonggo, Angela Bassett,
Serena Williams, Amanda Stenberg. The list goes on, how did
(09:57):
you get from that place of being an ab year
old on a mission to now working with the best
actors in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
What I've learned in this journey that I'm on is
you are what you attract. It just happened to me
Lupeta at a cross path where she was seeking the
same thing that I was seeking, and we just made
a pact within minutes of meeting each other. And it's
just been timing and divine and I think we were
(10:25):
meant to align at the time that we did, and
we had a point of view, but we hadn't anticipated
it would be so transcendent in what it was doing,
because that wasn't the goal. It was actually, how do
you want to show up? Okay, cool, let's do that.
If you just open yourself out, you will continue to
not only learn about self, but learn about the people
around you. And when you want to do that, every
(10:48):
second of the day is an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
So coming back to pair as a tool for transformation, Yes,
So what are the questions that we should ask ourselves
when we're considering a big hair pivot?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
A consultation is the single most powerful thing we have
access to as a hair artist, and I don't believe
we lean into that enough to be able to ask
the questions that are needed to understand how to help
them on their journey, Like how are you feeling today?
It's a really important question. What happened yesterday? Oh how
(11:25):
are you dealing with that? You can learn so much
more about the character or what you're working for than
what they're asking for you. Most times people are asking
things that are unobtainable, unmanageable, and they need it in
that moment, but it's not actually going to be of
service for them. Wants to leave the door, and I
was like, if the client can never recreate in a
(11:46):
silent environment, if she leaves the door and count and
recreate what I've done, then I haven't done my job.
And so it's been mindful of managing expectations.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So I want to talk about the building blocks of
a hair reinvention. I'd say that client wants to make
a big transformation with how they present their hair. Yes,
where would you start?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So so funny you say that. So the first thing
that I observe is the walk, because they're walking to me,
So what does.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That tell you?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
How they're feeling, who they are, where they come from.
People have a slouch, Some people come and they're like
show their bodies down. Some people working very confident and
then sit in the chair and become very very vulnerable. Literally,
how someone shorts and stands and sits, it tells you
a lot about who they are and why they do
what they do. And you have to have the linguistic
(12:33):
intelligence to be able to recognize that as well, and
being able to look at how people shake your hand,
if they shake your hand or not, if they want
to have a close body contact. All of that really
gives you some significant signs of who they are and
potentially how this is going to go. And then it's
for you to go on that journey to either break
(12:55):
the ice cube or to offer a handout and go
I hear, I see you. You're safe with me. Let's
go in this journey even when clients sit in the
chair and they may sit and their hands might be
costed or their legs might because open language and close
body language really indicates how someone is feeling when they're
talking to you about these major moments that have impacted
(13:17):
their existence and how they deal with it and dealing
with it is very telling to how the essential you're
going to manage what you're going to do for them.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, let's take me for example, because I have been
getting very bored with my hair. I feel like I
haven't changed it in a while, and I just feel
this urge to do something radical with my hair. But
I don't really know where to start. Do I start
with a cut? Do I add length? Do I radically
change my hair color? What would what would you suggest
(13:48):
for me? Like, what's a game plan? How do I
figure out how to tackle my own hair transformation?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well? All the things that you just spoke to a
temporary So what is it that you're really bored with?
Is the question I would ask you. Life is not
being a new joy.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I guess I never thought about it that way.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Because your hair is an extension of that. So whilst
we take these radical, drastic moments meant something tragic is
happening or great is happening in our life. To lobby
your hair for color, it it's transactional and it's temporary. Yeah,
but if you're not really ready to go, actually, why
are you bored? You can't be bored because how your
(14:26):
hair looks. Your hair is an extension of choices you've made,
and so the boredom is extending from something else that
is a vibration of you making a choice that you
make now to have your hair this way.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not feeling these
feelings this like restlessness with my hair as much now
as I was probably six months ago. And if I'm
honest with myself, I was not really in a good
place mentally. I was depressed. I had just gotten into
a car accident, some other things were happening in my life,
and I was at this low point earlier this year
(14:57):
and feeling really discouraged about how this year was shaking out.
So you're right, and there's a connection there. There's definitely
a connection there.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Like your hair is external, it presents a perspective to
the world. You can use it as a protector, or
you can use it as a tool to invite conversation
to you. And so often when I do see people
walking on the street and I can just know that
this head, yes, I walk up to the God, you
look amazing and thank you for choosing yourself. Because you
(15:26):
can often see when people are living in their most
authentic being, and their hair is a big extension of that.
You can often also see when people are not and
they're conformed. It's not a bad thing, but you can
often see when people are conforming, and I feel where
you've arrived is realize that you've been conforming for so
long you actually don't even know where to start to
(15:48):
explore all the amazing wilderness about you. And your hair
is a big part of that, and often you can
get confused where all the hair should be the start,
And actually the hair is a ask thing that you
should be focusing on, because the reality is finding what
brings you joy, finding what brings you strength, Recognizing what
(16:08):
doesn't bring you joy or what is contributed to making
you feel so dark in these moments is really crucial
because if you're not dealing with that hand putting paint
on the wall is not going to address the elephant
in the room. So if you'd come to me and
you were in this moment and you had a car accident,
I would essentially go, okay, well let's not do the
big job today, but let's take more of than what
(16:31):
you wouldn't normally do. Let's start there, okay, because I
can start you on the journey, but the journey you
have the lead. I'm a guider for you, I'm a mentor.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
We've got to take a quick break. We'll be right
back with Vernon Francois. And we're back with Vernon Francois.
When it comes to hair color, are there certain rules?
Are there certain rules that you play with? Are there
certain rules that you love to break? Does everyone have
(17:03):
a perfect hair color match?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Well, I'm a redheaded black guy. I didn't know that
people like this until a couple of years ago, and
so thank you for your support. We love it. Are
you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
You're gorgeous?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
It's you know, it's I don't even know if we
have the time to unpack this here, but most of
my environment, people who are black, darker skin tones don't
have orange progression. Urburn hair, and so I was never
seeked out as somewhat attractive or desirable or beautiful until
I got older. And so I, even though I work
(17:39):
in an industry that thrives on people finding indivisionalism and
authenticity and beauty, I think one of the reasons why
I'm so good at what I do as I go
back to it, I know what it feels like to
not feel beautiful. I know what it feels like to
want someone to just hug you and tell you that
it's okay. I know what it feels like to be
abused physically, mentally, emotionally at home in your work environment,
(18:01):
with your trusted loved ones. And if there's anything that
I can personally do in this world is to never
make anyone ever go through that again. And so my
way of holding myself accountable and trying to do the
best as a public service is to offer that to everyone.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
What does your current hair say about where you are
right now personally? Because it's very expressive. You can't see
it necessarily if you're listening, but it's it's pink. I'm
seeing little PiZZ of.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Pink popping out, and that's intentional, Like I push it
so you see it hair like I have a hairline
and all that stuff. My hair has always been it's
like maybe five or six different patterns and textures in there,
and hair is well. I was going to disclose something.
I don't know if this is closing well, I just
I recognize the significance and the impact hair has. I
(18:52):
had one hair transplant and that changed everything for me,
my confidence.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
So tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I didn't know I was on a pursuit of trying
to invent something because I recognized that there was a
shortage in a service for a particular hair pattern that
didn't exist, and so hair transplants were being around for
a long time, but it wasn't able to sort of
plant it into the graphs of their scalp because I
(19:20):
had curls and blah blah blah blah blah, and so
I just went on this deep dive for many years
trying to go, Okay, well, I need to be a
part of inventing something for us. We the curl diaspora
is way greater than a straight and so anyone that
has a kink or a curl in the hair re
exists more than any other hair pattern, and in pursuit
(19:40):
of doing that, I was losing a lot of density
within my own hair. But I'd always want hat since
I was little, like I've never not been who I am.
But I realized the impact that losing my hair had
on my self confidence was way greater than I had
never anticipated or was facing myself. But once again, when
(20:01):
clients would sit in a chair, and whether they were
female or male, and would talk about hair loss for
many different reasons, I could sympathize with them because I
also was going through that with them, even though I
never communicated that. And so being a product of your
environment and also going on your own journey as for
self can really help you be a better mentor for
(20:24):
whoever it is you're trying to be of service to.
And so for me, I am when I had that done,
and it really changed how I show up just for myself.
It wasn't for anything else but myself. I think my
husband would tell you, I feel more attracted in a
way that I didn't know I needed to feel. And
(20:45):
so I never undermine and judge anyone for making choices
that impact sincerely how they feel, how they think about
they should feel. I get more concerned about why they're
making the choices based on what they've been exposed to
and what they feel is going to make them happy
versus actually what will make you happy.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Well, I can see just in the way that you
talk about this experience how transformative it was for you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And once I just told you that information.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Thank you. Thank you for trusting me with that when
I think about my own confidence with my hair. You
don't know this, but you actually had a great impact
on me from AFAR because I was an entertainment reporter
here in New York City when I started to see
a lot of your work on the red carpet and
(21:36):
I would interview some of the actors that you had
styled and had worked with. But then I also saw
the conversation that you were starting around natural hair and
texture online and it was liberating for me because I
was a news anchor on TV who felt pressure to
straighten my hair, and at times I even had bosses
(21:57):
explicitly tell me straighten my hair in the interview. I
one time interviewed for a job and the news director said, well,
I like your hair. I like your hair straight basically,
and the implication was you'll only get the job if
you're willing to straighten your hair, and so to encounter
someone like you who was giving all of us permission
to embrace our curls and natural texture, that was huge
(22:20):
for me. That was major. Do you even know the
impact that you've had in that sense?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Now I'm going to get emotional, so thank you for
sharing that. It makes total sense. My goal has always
been to show beauty and what that looks like. Yeah,
it's been a fight and a struggle, and I've been
so grateful for the women that I've aligned with that
(22:48):
are willing to walk courageously in self and trust me.
And we talk about world wars and pandemics. There's been
a beauty pandemic of self identity from the beginning of time.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Wow, I've never heard anyone say.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
That, And that's what I'm trying to help people realize
and change the blueprint. You do not have to diminish
a sense of self, of your character to walk in
the shoes that you know you should be walking in.
And I think we've arrived at a point in time
where we realize that if you're not able to show
(23:24):
up as your most evented self, then it's not a
place that you should be in. There was so much
more of the semantics around it, where you feel like
you had to take that job to survive and do
the thing. We can have those conversations, but the reality
is that you just need one person to show up.
And so when Lapiita started walking that carpet, it changed
so many people's perspective of how to show up. I
(23:46):
hadn't realized the impact that we were having because that
wasn't our intention. That intention was for her to feel seen.
And so thank you for sharing that, and I hope
that you continue to lead into that at the times
when you're feeling bored, because it's in those moments where
you will learn how to really afford yourself the privilege
(24:09):
to explore. Well.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
The courage that you have is contagious because it rubbed
off on me, and something really cool and magical happened.
Because of my own experience and my struggle with showing
up with natural hair on TV. I decided to bring
together other black women newscasters who had experienced the same thing,
and I put together this little photo shoot. It was
(24:34):
like twenty five to thirty of us maybe, and then
it got picked up by the Kelly Clarkson show. It
went viral and I was able to go on her
show and share my experience. But it was bigger than
my experience. It was all of us standing together and saying,
we deserve to be able to show up to work,
to deliver you the news, to give you the information
(24:55):
that you need, and do it in a way that's
authentic for us and how our hair grows out of
our heads. But I want to go back to what
you mentioned about Lupida, because I remember when you were
working with Lupita very closely on the Met Gala on
Black Panther, and when she walked out on those carpets,
(25:17):
her hair was revolutionary. What was the carpet the event
when you were able to really identify that and say, oh, wow,
we're really onto something here.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Oh, it was the met Gala, at first Met Gala together.
That's when people went crazy. People went nuts, people went crazy.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Can you describe that whole look for us that you
created for Lupita?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It was Nina Simone. Is that famous image of Nina
Simone from the side profile where her hair goes up
into like a pyramid and then she has these shells
hanging around and probably a braid of some sort like
a cone. That was one of many inspirations. But my
whole thing for the met Gala was and this is
a good thing and a bad thing sometimes when you
(26:00):
a creative bubble. I was like, oh, and gee, this
is my first met Gala. Metgala's like fantasy hair. It's
like ov god that it's wildest. It's a moment to
show up and to really be unapologetic. Oh my god,
this is amazing. That was literally all I had in
my mind. And she's extraordinarily intentional, very smart with collaboration
(26:24):
and knowing what she knows and knowing what she doesn't
know and seeking guidance from the professional while still having
a very strong vision about self. She's extraordinary aware of
who she is. So she will often say, oh, we're
doing the Metgala. Here are some inspirations. She will send
me a plant, she will send me a picture of something.
(26:45):
She'll send me something from Kenya or something from Mexico,
and then let me go on my wildest adventure and
come up with something. And she will just say, oh,
I want to feel tall. Oh. She will give me
words and I will go and run with that, and
vice versa. So I just showed up and I went
to build this mountain of just execution and fluid tea
(27:06):
in terms of blending the textures with like four different
textures on this sculptural headpiece that I built for her
that was towering off.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
How long did that creation take?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I build in real time, meaning that I can construct
something in the moment, but it takes me days or
weeks to figure out how I'm doing. So I go
walking out the park, I don't sleep. I walk them
around hardware stores, home depot for hours, just looking at tools,
thinking how I can manure like It takes home Deepot
literally Michael's Home Deepot.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
What I never expected you to say, home deeper? What? Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I was in Home Deeper the day for fashioning it
waits some of the best stuff ever.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Wait, what do you mean? What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
So I'm twenty eight and number seven, I know the aisles. Yeah,
it's really amazing craft craftsmanship. AM an architect.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
So what ends up in your shopping cart or home
depot as you're putting together.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Everything you can imagine? Give me give me one thing
I found. Do you use it like a pipe phae
cleaner or holder? So it's the things you put into
pipes like it's pham. Okay, yeah, but it keeps them insulated. Yeah,
and those phoneps are really good to build because they
are lightweight but have structure to it. And then you
use my weaving needle that I used to stitch hair
(28:26):
and sell hairing to stitch it onto the hair. I
very rarely use pins. I'm always sewing.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Oh interesting, I've seen you use a lot of thread
and yarn in your work.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
It's from self taught. The stitching is more secure, less discomforting,
more seamless, just as craft.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So you're telling me the key to our next hair
transformation could be at our local hardware store.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Oh it always has been. Let's just be real clear
about that. The key to your transformation is recognizing that
it's in your hands, like it's around you. But yeah,
So that was one of the most amazing looks that
I think really propelled me where people like, holy crap,
(29:10):
you are like not here to play around.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
So I'm gonna prepper you with some rapid fire questions.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Now I don't do well with those, but just letting you.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Know, Okay, we'll try our best. I'm gonna run a
couple of hair theories by you, starting with Isa. I
interviewed her last year and she says everyone should shave
their head once. Oh, agree or disagree? Absolutely agree? Why.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I believe it's really important that you free yourself of
this thing that you believe is a part of your identity,
your beauty and reconcile with the fact that it's just
an object that can be easily removed, and it forces
you to find other things and other attributes of yourself,
(29:58):
so you're not wholly relied on this thing that you
can flip and toss or build into shapes to find
a sense of self.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So there's a conversation happening on TikTok right now and
it's called the hair theory, and some users are theorizing
that right before an artist becomes famous, they do something
radical to their hair and they find this signature look
like Sabrina Carpenter and her bangs, for example. Do you
think there's something to that like having a signature look?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Absolutely. I used to work in music a lot, and
that would be one of the things we would sit
down and work with an artist and identity and food,
the creative direction as an artist enters into the spotlight
how they're able to differentiate themselves amongst all the other
things that existing in the same space. And hair plays
arguably the more important role in that exploration of identity
(30:52):
because it's the one thing that you can either be
consistent or be unconsistent with that will attract attention. And
so when I say that, I think, when you look
at adult Cha, I think, right now, I've been so excited.
I know the whole team shout out to you, doing
an amazing job because she has been extraordinarily like, just
so unconventional with consistency. It's brilliant because actually she's just
(31:16):
showing up. It's my eye, it's who I am. I
can be a chameleon and do all these things and
still show up. I think it's brilliant, Like she has
just put a middle finger up to all of that
notion that you have to have consistency. Does consistency work?
I think we've been trained to acknowledge that it works,
And I think it's probably boxed a lot of artists
(31:38):
in because now they can't do anything other than that.
But yes, building an identity through hair, especially if you're
establishing yourself as an artist, even actors is a real thing,
and Lupita gets typecast with her hair. They keep asking
us to take her back to when she first came
onto the scene. I was like, well, you know, that
was ten years ago, and her hair grows, so.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
She's also a person. She grows.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
People are not looking at that. So then my coaggressions
and the racism that's prevalent in just not recognizing that
is a real thing. It's not singular to subpoena carp
and tota thing. It's Jennifer Anderson gets type cuss because
of how she looked in friends. So Jessica Parka that
that look is she doesn't have that. No one doesn't
recognize it, and no one wants to hire up if
(32:20):
she's not doing that, And so it's a good thing
and it can be a bad thing.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I was going to ask you who is killing the
glam game right now, and you brought up Doci. I mean,
that's the woman who comes to mind for me when
I think about her Paris Fashion Week debut and all
of those looks. I'm obsessed with that black mullet that
she I know, I want that mullet so bad when
it comes to styling curly hair. I thank God for
(32:46):
the gen Z curl Talk gurlies, because I have learned
so much. Yes, thank you, Yes, thank you curl Talk.
What's one curly hair hack that all of us curly
girls should you're met with?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I don't know if it's a hack, but I would
love to challenge everyone to leave your hair to dry
naturally and live in that for twenty four hours and
see how you feel.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
So you're saying, don't diffuse it, just let us.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Leave your hand, let it dry naturally, twist or whatever
you want to do with it. But have you allowed
your hair to sit in its natural form? And how
does it make you feel? Really have that conversation with yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
That's good. I prefer to let my hair dry naturally.
I always better exactly all right? For this section, I'm
going to make a statement and you fill in the blank.
Oh okay, So I never leave the house without when
it comes to when it comes.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
To hair, I never leave the house without a hair tig.
That's right. Save, Yeah, that saved the day.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
When you ever, when I outside without a hair tie,
I'm like the other day I found like a luggage
strap from my bag and it was like carabineice and
I just wrapped it around.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I don't have hair, and I have a hair tie.
I have it all in it for somebody if someone
needs it.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Oh my gosh, the hairty angel.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, I've given it to people in the street before.
I can see people looking like, oh I have one.
I work in hair and my daughter to this morning.
I put one on their list every day.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Oh my gosh, I love that so much. Okay, every
person should keep Blank in their bathroom cabinet.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Leaving conditioner and a spray bottle with alkaline water.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Oh that's good. Okay, I'm going to try that immediately next.
If you see Blank on a product ingredient list, put
it back on the shelf.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
So I had my own product company. I learned a
lot about product ingredients. I also learned a lot about
product performance. I also learned a lot about consumer behavior.
And what I learned through this experience is the pandemonium
of accessibility trumps any ingredients, and so whether an ingredient
(35:14):
is toxic or not is relative to the desire of
the need of that individual to have access to the brand,
the product, or what they think that product is going
to do for them. I know a lot of people
intentionally by product full of silicone because they prefer how
it feels on their hair, knowing that it's not the
most comforting thing to have over a long period of time,
(35:35):
but they still actively go and get it. And so,
as an experienced business professional, the one ingredient thing has
no weight anymore because people are searching for these products
for different needs and will pursue it in respect of
what they think they need from it, irrespective of whatever
I say.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
And finally, I know you have a daughter, you are.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I do the one that I know of.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Stop, don't play around like that.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Does that happen to my family? I learned I had
a sister and during COVID the same age.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I learned I had a brother about fifteen years ago,
and I love him Jason. When it comes to my daughter,
I hope she knows her hair is blank.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
When it comes to my daughter, I hope that she's
not defined by her hair, which sounds very controversial for
someone like me to say, but I want her not
to be defined by this thing that people in the
world are going to validate you by. You have to
have a sense of your beauty, strength and compassion, and
your capacity to do whatever it is with or without
your hair.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Which goes back to what is saying about shaving her
hair correct correct, rays, never wrong, life rule number one
sixty two.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
She gets it because.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
This is the bright side. I like to end each
conversation by asking our guests, what are you celebrating right now?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Oh, that's a bit. I'm celebrating joy. What you are
witnessing right now is the best version that I've had
access to in myself. I now recognize how beautiful I am,
and it's afforded me so much more self confidence. I'm
relinquishing the imposture syndrome, which has been a big thing
for me, and I am extraordinarily excited to turn forty
(37:17):
this year.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
I'm just really happy that I'm here and I have
arrived here by being consistent.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Vernon, thank you so much for coming on the bright side.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Vernon Francois is a celebrity hairstylist and global brand ambassador
for Olaplex. Hey, before we wrap today's episode, I just
want to take a moment to reflect on our time
together at Shinaway last month and that unforgettable conversation with
Chrissy Tiegan. If you were there with us in person
at the Universal Studios lot in Los Angeles, or if
(37:57):
you listen to the episode at home. Either way, I
just hope you could feel how electric that room was,
hundreds of women coming together under one roof, laughing, celebrating,
and taking in Chrissy's honesty. She was so open about
her family's journey with type one diabetes after her son
Miles was unexpectedly diagnosed, and she admitted that she didn't
(38:20):
really understand how serious the disease was at first, but
she quickly realized that their lives were changing overnight, and
now over time, Chrissy has found this thriving online community
of support around T one d. Chrissy also shared how
important early detection can be. I mean, how amazing is
it that we can actually screen for this condition, And
(38:41):
that's why she's teamed up with Santafee to help spread
the word about screening for type one diabetes. It's such
a powerful reminder that knowledge really is everything, especially when
it comes to our health and our children's health. So
if that conversation with Chrissy resonated with you, take this
moment as a friendly reminder to talk with your doctor
to learn more about type one diabetes screening, and to
(39:02):
also visit screen for type one dot com to find
out how screening can help you better understand your family's risk.
And one more time, we just want to send it
a big thank you to Santa Fie for sponsoring our
live recording at shine Away and for making conversations like
this possible. Thanks, I'll talk to you soon, and until then,
keep looking on the bright side. The bright Side is
(39:28):
a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts and is
executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Simone Boyce. Production
is by ACAST Creative Studios. Our producers are Taylor Williamson,
Abby Delk, and Adrian Bain. Our production assistant is Joya Putnoy.
Acasts executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Maureen
(39:49):
Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine.
Ali Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for
iHeart Podcasts. Our theme song is by Anna Stump and
Hamilton Lakehouser.
Host
Simone Boyce
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