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November 4, 2025 29 mins

# 22 - Lot & His Two Daughters - In this episode of The Chosen People we delve into the dark and troubling story of Lot and his daughters, who, driven by fear and isolation, commit grievous acts to ensure their family lineage. The episode explores themes of desperation, sin, and moral compromise, drawing parallels between this ancient story and modern struggles. Through this reflection, listeners are invited to consider the dangers of self-reliance in times of despair and the importance of trusting in God’s guidance to avoid spiritual and moral decay.

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Episode 22 of The Chosen People is inspired by the Book of Genesis.

Today's opening prayer is inspired by James 1:15, “Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death.”

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Previously on the Chosen People.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
We're in the throes of arranging the wedding. I have
been working tirelessly. You could not imagine the intricacies. But
it is a labor of love. My daughters, Keziah and Milka,
deserve nothing less, and they.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Will make lovely brides.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
And the match will be most beneficial for both our houses.
Of course, there's our noble line. We can trace our
family history back to Noah, if you can believe that
through his son's shell.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
The evil and vile atrocities have caused a great outcry
against its people.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
It has become so great before the God Almighty that
he has sent.

Speaker 5 (00:44):
Us to destroy it.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Destroy it.

Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yes, the city, the city will be destroyed.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
The lightning strikes intensified a harrowing force of nature and judgment.
It was as if thick unds of flame were licking
the city of Sodom. The bright white inferno of lightning
from above met the blue flames from below, and all
that was caught in the middle was melted into the

(01:12):
molten mess that writhed beneath that blue, purifying fire.

Speaker 4 (01:17):
But you must go now. Remember what we told you.
Don't look back, and don't.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Stop I can't. I can't do this, Lot, I cannot
follow you again.

Speaker 6 (01:38):
Yes, wait around, what are you doing?

Speaker 5 (01:42):
Where are you going? Mother?

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Suddenly the wind shifted and she was in full view
from the wall. She gazed upward as if in provocative protest,
arms outstretched, and her screen cut short, and she stood
still as a pillar. But then her body fell. Now
it did not fall, it began to crumble. To Lot's revulsion,

(02:13):
the outline of her very body was falling in on
itself and dissolving into what appeared to be salt. The
wind carried larger and larger chunks until there was a
small pile where she once stood. Petrified, His daughters stopped screaming,
their eyes wide in horror. Time stood still as the

(02:35):
three of them watched a smoky gust carry the rest
of her away on a fell wind. His daughter's keening
cries filled lotsy as, driving him to his knees. This
episode of The Chosen People contains explicit content that may
be triggering for some listeners and inappropriate for young children.

(02:58):
Listener discretion is advert.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Father, what you need to come back with me if
it's time for the evening meal. You can't just linger
up here all day. You're unsettling our new neighbors.

Speaker 6 (03:15):
I I have, I have too.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
I know, but it's time to go now.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Lots held this daughter, Keziah placed her hand on her
father's arm and guided him away from the town gate
and into the heart of the town Bella, where their
mysterious saviours bid them to escape their new home. She
felt her father stiffen with fear the further they retreated
into the buildings. This tragedy seemed to have aged him

(03:47):
twenty years because I knew her father was afraid to
be away from the stone walls for too long. He
would humor her and her sister by joining them for
the evening meal, fain going to sleep, and returning before dawn.
Sometimes she wondered if guilt and regret over what happened
to her mother kept him watching on the wall, or

(04:08):
perhaps he feared being trapped within the labyrinth of buildings
should fiery judgment fall again. As for Kaziah, she wasn't
sure what haunted her more the image of her mother's
corpse crumbling into salt, or her final words.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
What do you know of it? I handed you everything
I got you A husband secured your future and gave
you stability. You would have nothing without me.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Her mother was right. She had simultaneously done everything and
expected everything from her. It was impossible to live up to,
and yet nothing had been expected of her younger sister,
Milkha would never understand the weight upon her shoulders, Upon
the eldest's shoulders, her mother was always complaining that Kasia

(04:58):
didn't do enough, or that she was allay falling short
of her lofty expectations for her. Her mother had worked
hard to rebuild their family's reputation, despite the misfortune's and
nomadic lifestyle their family had adopted on account of their
uncle Abraham. Kaziah hardly remembered the city of her birth harm,

(05:18):
but her mother constantly reminded her of its sophistication and
the intricacies of social status, and preserving those intricacies was
paramount why her sister, Milker, the one their mother clearly favored,
had even been named for their father's sister, their aunt Milka,
who was married to their uncle Nahor. Keeping their bloodline

(05:40):
was always at the forefront. The bloodline of shem Kazia's
mother spoke of little else. She had been choosy about
her daughter's mattess, and it wasn't until they were established
in the upper echelons of Sodomite society that she finally
struck the arrangements. Their bloodline was not to be compared
under any circumstances. That was her mother's constant refrain. No

(06:05):
second rate family edition would do. Not that that seemed
to matter now she and her sister's betrothed Zurum and
Laven were killed in the terrible disaster. They were surely
burned or buried or worse, But yet it was their
mother who had outright abandoned them. It was now up
to Kasia to rebuild their family. Kasia and her father

(06:30):
were rounding the corner leading to their lodgings cramped street Malak,
a kind old tanner and his wife had taken them
in the days following the catastrophe at Sodom, days had
turned to weeks, and a new sort of routine formed.
Lot haunted the war by the city gate, and Kaziah
and Milker tried to appear useful to the tanner and

(06:52):
his wife, but their mother had raised them to order
a household not working one. The transition was uncomfortable for
everyone to say the least, because I knew she had
to devise a plan and soon, but she had no
idea where to begin. As they approached the dwelling, because
I's stomach twisted, she saw a familiar gang of men

(07:15):
approach her sister Milker, who was waiting for them in
the doorway.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Hebrew, girl, pardon me, you held me outside us, infiltrate us.
How's it only you three escaped Sodom's due? How'd you
make it out in time? I? How long, dear?

Speaker 1 (07:35):
What happens?

Speaker 3 (07:36):
And Sodom happens?

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Here?

Speaker 3 (07:38):
There's some angry god after you? Huh, what do you do?
How long are we going to harbor you?

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Like the fugitives you are?

Speaker 3 (07:47):
I say we'd drave them out.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
I they've outstayed their welcome. They have because I hurried
to close the distance between her sister and the four men,
A silent, bewildered.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Lot in tow Milka, come here, gentlemen. We mean you
no harm. We're just trying to make our way here,
same as you, gentlemen.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Who do you think you are? Ah, you're fine city folk.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
You think you're bearing.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
Me trying to make you way?

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Say?

Speaker 3 (08:21):
I heard you wearing out. You're welcome. It's our hospitality
and guess rights and all that your paw don't well
really speaks. And you two pretty little things think you
too good for us noses in the air. I don't
think we didn't see the fine clothes you came with
and soul.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
What are you girls going to do when the money
runs out? Who will protect you?

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Then?

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Because I wrenched her arm out of the man's firm
grasp as Malak their host burst through his doorways scattering.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
The men live on me.

Speaker 4 (08:58):
They're my guests. You will not bring me shame by
harming them.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh, thank you, Master Molock, Yes, thank you.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
Now, little mistress. I'm not like yous. Don't need a
title or preamble before my name. You are welcome just
the same. You are right there a lot.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
He's fine, He'll be fine.

Speaker 4 (09:32):
If you say so.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Used to this, shall we go in and wash up
for the evening meal.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
I wanted to talk to you about.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Something, Milka. Why don't you take father inside? What did
you want to speak of?

Speaker 4 (09:51):
No, I've known those men all all my life. I
know those looks. Once they get their heads set on trouble, trouble,
they will have.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
I fear.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
The protection of my roof won't me much, considering how
riled up they are. The business with Sodom got us
all on the edge. Mistress, you understand.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
I do.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
No no disrespect, little mistress, But I don't think you
do now. I know your paw isn't in his right mind.
I'm jumping the shadows and his mind wandering here and there.
But I think it's time you move on from here.

(10:47):
I don't want the trouble those men will bring to
be my trouble too.

Speaker 7 (10:54):
But what will we do?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Where will we go? How will we live?

Speaker 4 (11:02):
I would tell you to go to your rich uncle
across the plain, but they're saying the air still ain't
fit to breathe. It's like fire on the insides and
stings your eyes. The whole valley is bedden and wild
and treacherous. For miles and miles, two girls, and your
father and his condition, it would be a death sentence.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Then, where.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
There's some big caves up in the mountains, big enough
to make like those tents your people favor, you could
trap rabbits and grow crops up there too. On the
flat parts in the foothills. Not many would Bathria and
it's remote and folk around here they prefer mostly the towns,
and me and mine I can help you out from

(11:48):
time to time. My wife made up some food and
supplies to help you out.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
So you've already decided you're sending us away.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
It don't sit right with me, but I got mine
to worry about, and I couldn't live with myself if
something were to happen under my roof.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
What you would send us out to go and starve.

Speaker 4 (12:14):
I told you, I don't like it, but you'll find
a way. You're a smart girl. You'll find a way
for your family to survive.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
The old Tanner's words were like a slap in her face,
but he was right. Her mother was right. It seemed
it would always fall to her to look after her family.
Months passed and Kazia and her family ran to the
caves like fugitives at night, and true to her calling,
Kaziah ensured that they survived. Their sanity and soundness were

(12:48):
held by a thread, but they were alive. True to
his word that Tanner did help them out from time
to time. When Kazai would sneak into town to beg
or bar forr food, Lot took to the cave like
an animal going to the ground. He cowered in the
back corners of the cave, the stone walls to his back,
and continued in his listless state. He sprang to life. However,

(13:11):
when he called Kazaiah creeping back into the cave one
day with wine and bread from town, Where were you?

Speaker 6 (13:18):
I thought you'd been taken or burned? What did I
tell you about leaving the castle?

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Castle? Father's gone mad. I was in town grabbing some
odds and ends. I do this every week, father.

Speaker 6 (13:35):
Insulent girl, I forbid you to leave. How am I
supposed to protect you when you wander out of sight?

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Wait until your mother hears about this.

Speaker 8 (13:50):
She's dead.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
We're not in a palace. We're in a cave, and
it's me who's been keeping you safe.

Speaker 5 (13:57):
Understand, I think you're gonna but I tell you, wanted that.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
I tell you, I tell you, I tell you, I
tell you.

Speaker 5 (14:09):
But they listen. No, only kids, these kids, It is
it is.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
Is it is these kids? Is what am I going
to do with these kids?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Kauzia was dismayed at her father's worsening condition and agitation,
book was forced to heed him. Milka made for lousy company.
She was almost as fearful as their father, and followed
what Kazia ordered her to do, like a phantom of
her former chip herself. Kauziah hated what they all had become.

(14:52):
One morning, Kazia and Milka were outside the caves on
the side of the mountain checking their snares for game.
The Tanner had given them quick tutorial of how to
set one and where it was only successful a fraction
of the time. Casiah groaned with frustration when they came
upon the third and final trap, finding it empty. They

(15:12):
would be feasting on boiled roots again tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
I can't take this any longer.

Speaker 7 (15:20):
I know, Cassiah.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Oh do you Cassiah?

Speaker 7 (15:24):
What's happening to you is also happening to me. You
act like all the suffering is on your shoulders.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
That's because it is Milka. It always has been. I've
been working to keep us alive. I have no intention
of dying here in this cave and dissolving into obscurity.

Speaker 7 (15:42):
We need a way.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Out and a way up.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
What is there to do?

Speaker 7 (15:48):
We have no connections, no friends or even neighbors, and
father is well.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Milka turned to her father, murmuring in the corner of
the cave, tracing something with his finger in the air.
It was a pitiful sight. He was degenerating before them.
The once ambitious and shrewd man they called father had
been reduced to a blubbering fool.

Speaker 7 (16:15):
The point is, everyone we knew is dead. We have
nothing but the clothes on our backs and the supplies
of a stranger. Even our futures were snatched away from us.
I should have been married by now, I should have
been running my own household. I could have been pregnant
with my first born by now. But now we have nothing,

(16:37):
not even hope.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
What about me? It's as you said, what's happening to
you is also happening to me. So you would just
have us die out here, die in a cave.

Speaker 7 (16:49):
Well, there's no life here, This is it.

Speaker 8 (16:52):
Our line ends with us. Mother would be furious if
we intermarried with anyone in that god forsake in town,
and there are not exactly eligible men roaming the mountainside. However,
if one were, I would beseech him to come and
set these blasted snares properly. I may marry him, just

(17:13):
out of gratitude and for the promise of a hot meal.
But the only man for Miles is father.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Milka had a point. Perhaps the only way out of
their situation was to stop thinking about their survival and
start thinking about their lineage. Maybe it was the malnutrition.
The Kaziah had become solely focused on their day to
day survival. What was the next meal? Was it warm
enough at night? Where would they find more fresh water?

(17:43):
Should they relocate the latrine? And on and on the
list went. Of course, Milka, their mother's favorite, would be
the one to remind her of their mother's refrain. Their
mother would chastise them for not thinking bigger. Their family
legacy was larger than all of them. The weight of
responsibility once again settled in on Kaziah's shoulders. Their mother

(18:06):
had raised them to be noble women who would one
day carry noble babes. Their duty was to steward the
family line and wealth until they successfully raised the next generation. Well,
the wealth was gone, but Kazia needed to find a
way to preserve the lion. They would need to seek
out worthy husbands. Milka was right. The men in town

(18:29):
were simple minded townsfolk at best and carousing thugs at worst.
They would not do the cities of the plain had
been wiped off the face of the earth, and their
way to anyone else was blocked. If only they could
get to their uncle Abraham and his family in Hebrew,
or even their uncle Nahor in Awe. Surely Milka's namesake

(18:52):
could not turn them away, but both were inaccessible, and besides,
Kaziah did not know the way to Or, but she
knew it was very far and dangerous. That's when a
thought took root in the back of her mind, Like
a weed slowly coiling over a garden flower. The idea squeezed,

(19:14):
intensifying with each moment. Kaziah had a dark idea. The
only family they had left was their father. Her sister
had just said it in passing, but still, perhaps the
answer was right there in front of them. Kaziah frowned.
The prospect of lying with her father was not appealing,

(19:36):
but she supposed it was not so different from the
arranged marriages of her ancestors or even her extended family.
Her uncle Nahor married his niece, their aunt Milka, and
even her uncle Abraham was married to his half sister.
The desperation of her situation was beginning to present like
an ember of hope, and for the first time in

(19:57):
a long time, Kaziah felt like she finally had a
heading away forward.

Speaker 7 (20:04):
Did you get it?

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yes, I got it. And keep your voice down, we
don't want him to hear. Fine, fine father, father? How
was your day? What your day?

Speaker 1 (20:20):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (20:20):
It was fine, child. I have some good news. I
found that we have wine.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Ah.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
I thought we had no more since we came here.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
We must have misplaced it.

Speaker 7 (20:34):
Let's drink to our good fortune of finding it.

Speaker 5 (20:38):
As you say, daughters, we have so little else.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Because I handed her father the soul cup they had,
she had filled it almost to the brim with wine
she had stolen from the town. She had nothing to
barter or bargain with, so she resigned herself to thievery
to hatch their scheme. Lot drank the first few SIPs
of the wine and then offered it to Milker, who
feigned a swig. Lot then offered it to Kaziah, and

(21:08):
she did the same. Kazi then passed it back to
her father, and on and on it went with their
meager dinner. It did not take long for the wine's
effect to take hold of their father. He was soon
drunk and did not realize where he was or what he.

Speaker 5 (21:24):
Was doingth Edith, is that you Edith? Look, the girls
have found wine. Isn't this a fine vintage Edith?

Speaker 2 (21:41):
No, Father, it's oh, yes, lot, that's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
The two women went along with what their father was
saying until he was so drunk he didn't realize when
they were before him or not. Kaziah set her jaw
and nodded for her sister to leave. She then took
her father by the hand and led him to his
bedroll in the back of the cave. She had her
way with him. Every moment made her shudder, but at

(22:09):
least she was in control. In the depths of the dark,
damp cave. She was authoring her own destiny. If she
had paid any attention to the God of Abraham, she
would have understood that a new Sodom was being reborn
in that cave, indulgence, self reliance, and blurred lines between
the sacred and profane.

Speaker 7 (22:33):
Was it disgusting, terrible?

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Not so terrible? Different than what I would have expected.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Gassire could not bring herself to admit it to her sister,
or even say it out loud, But what she had
felt last night was less disgusted and more power. She
had taken control of her destiny for the first time
in a long time, maybe for the first time ever.
She was so rarely in control and so much had

(23:03):
been taken for her. A deep, dark part of her
reveled in the power she exacted over her father.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
But he was so drunk that he had no idea
who I was or if I was even there.

Speaker 7 (23:16):
Perhaps that's for the best.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
It just doesn't seem right. Don't do that. Don't judge me.
You agreed to this plan, same as me, and you
know you still have to do this as well.

Speaker 7 (23:30):
I know, but I still wonder what he would say
he knew.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, he doesn't know, and he won't know. Yes, But
if he did, well, you know, he wouldn't want this.
He doesn't know what he wants. He would keep us
locked up here in this cave forever. Maybe us producing
airs will be the very thing that brings him to
his senses and convinces him to lead this family again.

(23:59):
He won't do it for us, but maybe he'll do
it for them.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Kazia surprised herself with this admission and saw her own
pain reflected back in her sister's eyes. They spoke no
more of it until evening began to fall, and they
repeated the same ritual from the night before. Lot had
been groggy and hungover all day, and it took some
convincing to get him to agree to accept the wine,

(24:24):
but eventually he was so drunk that he again was
speaking to people who weren't there and remembering times that
had long since passed.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Milka, what are you waiting for? Do it now? I know,
I just do it now before you lose your nerve.
I just, Milka, this is our only escape. This is
the only way out.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Milka fixed Kazia with a helpless stare, but did as
her sister bid her to do. Milka was coer into
taking her father and lying with him, just as her
sister had done the night before. Lot awoke the next
morning to a pounding in his head and a queasiness

(25:14):
in his stomach like he had never experienced before. The
cave wall above his head spun as he attempted to
sit up, he collapsed back down on his bedroll to
weak and dizzy. To change his orientation, he sighed and
rubbed his eyes. He would stink of wine until he
could muster up the strength to draw enough water for

(25:36):
a bath or make his way out to a stream.
He could already smell the wine seeping from his paws
through his sweat. The morning sun was winking at him
through the cave's opening, and with a great grow he
forced himself to sit upright to get the light out
of his eyes.

Speaker 6 (25:54):
Ah, what on earth happened last night? Why am Id
is walking around while I'm still in bed with this
massive headache?

Speaker 1 (26:04):
I his memory was so hazy he could not remember.
But wait, he could remember fragments of memories, warm bodies touching,
the rise and fall of his heartbeat, sounds echoing through
the caves. It all rushed back to him in blurred images.

(26:25):
But everything seemed wrong. He felt a pit in his stomach,
a churning beyond the queasiness of the wine.

Speaker 6 (26:33):
Ah, surely these memories are from long ago.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
My wife Edith is gone.

Speaker 6 (26:42):
Ah too much to drink. My head blasted my head?
Ah the wine? Ah, this was the wine.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Lot placed his hand beside him to steady himself before
pushing off the bed roar. When he saw it, a long,
dark hair, he blinked at it. He lifted his hand
and looked around his bed several long, dark hairs. Who
did those belong to? Though were certainly not his? The
shade and length were wrong. They were, however, a perfect

(27:18):
match for his daughter's. But how surely not? But here
was the evidence and his dream, no, not dream memories.
He realized. Lot's stomach dropped out and his throat went dry.
He hurled, his groans, echoing off the cave walls. Ha,

(27:41):
what have I tired? What has been a tied to me? A?
He was horrified? How could this have happened? And why?
How much lower could the depths of his shame go?
He felt worthless, defiled, dirty, violated, and what had been
the extent of their coupling? He shuddered? If they were

(28:04):
with a child. He couldn't fully wrap his head around that,
not right now, not with the pounding in his head
threatening to rob him of his consciousness. He felt sick.
Would he ever feel whole or clean again? But if
they were, how would the consequences of his daughter's actions
unfold of his own? He wondered what would become of

(28:28):
his daughter's children, his children in the years to come?
This prey dog comproduction is only made possible by our
dedicated team of creative talents. Steve Gattina, Max Bard, Zach
Shellabager and Ben Gammon are the executive producers of The

(28:49):
Chosen People. Narrated by Paul Coltefianu. Characters are voiced by
Jonathan Cotton, Aaron Salvado, Sarah Seltz, Mike Reagan, Stephen Ringwallld,
Sylvia Zaradoc, Thomas Copeland Junior, Rosanna Pilcher, and Mitch Leshinski.
Music by Andrew Morgan Smith, written by Aaron Salvato, bre

(29:10):
Rosalie and Chris Baig. You can hear more Prey dot
com productions on the Prey dot Com app, available on
the Apple App Store and Google Play Store. If you
enjoyed The Chosen People, please rate and leave a review,
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Ruthie's Table 4

Ruthie's Table 4

For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

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