Interview Only w/ Rep. Oye Owolewa & George Laws Garcia - Democracy Denied: Inside the Push for D.C. & Puerto Rico Statehood - The Chuck ToddCast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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it's been a couple generations since the United States added
a star to its flag. We've had fifty states. Now
going back, I guess might in my entire lifetime, we've

(01:51):
been fifty as sudden, the oldest generation that can say that,
because of course we added states in Hawaii and Alaska
before that. There's been two potential new states that have
been sort of on and off again. One is for
the District of Columbia and one is Puerto Rico. Just
to give a summary, there's over four according to the

(02:13):
last census, over four million Americans who live in a
territory or a district that does not have any state representation,
and four basically four of those four million reside in
either Puerto Rico in DC. To break it down further,
Puerto Rico with a population twenty twenty four EPs of

(02:34):
three point two million. If it were a state, it
would essentially be approximately the size of Iowa and Utah
population wise, which means at least four members of Congress
A full anywhere, depending on the estimate you use, anywhere
from eighteen to twenty states have less population than Puerto Rico.

(02:54):
As for the District of Columbia, there are two states
with less population, y Oming and Vermont. So now if
you're asking about the Pacific Islands, I did do those
numbers as well. Combined you're looking at about three hundred
and fifty thousand, so not even quite one congressional district
Quam Guam at over one hundred and fifty thousand. The

(03:15):
US Virgin Islands, which I've got an idea on this
that I will I will, I will put further, has
about eighty seven thousand. American Simona with a fifty little
under fifty thousand, then the Northern Mariana Islands under fifty thousand.
So if you took. Basically, it's about two hundred and
fifty thousand Americans in Pacific Island territories and with the

(03:38):
eighty with the nearly one hundred thousand in the US
virgin Island, to throw that in with Puerto Rico, you're
looking at three point three million. But that's the scenario.
That's a lot of people who don't have representation, who
pay taxes without representation, living in the DMV, which in
this case is not the Division of Motor vehicles, but
when I talk about the district Maryland and Virginia, that's

(04:00):
what that DMV stands for. I've spent a lot of
time with people who have had efforts to get statehood
for d C. There were moments it was close and not.
In Puerto Rico. There's a sort of a three way divide,
if you will, when it comes to the statehood conversation.
There are some people that want full independence, there are
some people that want full statehood, and there are even

(04:23):
others on the island that still argue for essentially what
we have so far a commonwealth with you know, with
the American umbrella citizenship. But that's about it. So joining
me to discuss the fight for STATEO. These are two
advocates for statehood, both with Puerto Rico and DC, because
I believe you're not going to get one state. The

(04:43):
only shot you have it each has is probably working
together two states and give both parties the idea that
they have something to gain. Here. George las Garcia is
the executive director of the Puerto Rican Statehood Council and
the shadow represent from DC who is elected to lobby
for statehood. Oya oh Oleiwa joins me. I will be

(05:06):
using his nickname of Oya for the rest of the time.
Thank you both for joining us. Oh Yea, I hope
you're okay with that. Absolutely, Thanks for having me look,
and I want to give you. I want to give
you a shout out here because you and I have
been talking for some time about this issue. You've always
been looking for better ways to get more national coverage
of this, and I suggested, hey, why don't we, why

(05:27):
don't we get somebody advocating for Puerto Rican statehood and
let's have you guys on together. And sure enough, o Ya,
you were my book aro on this one. So thank you.
Let me start. Let me start with you, Oya, which
is about ten years ago. I thought, you know, maybe

(05:48):
DC statehood happens in my lifetime, and then, you know,
and then some roadblocks have been hit. How would you
describe the status? I just recently sat down with Mayor
Bowser and she, you know, fights she you know, the
issue of the National Guard was a reminder, as she said, Hey,

(06:08):
if you don't like it, that's why you need to
advocate for statehood. Where would you how would you describe
where we are on the on the fight for statehood
in the district.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, thank you for that question, Thank you for having me.
As you mentioned before, we had the opportunity.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
To become a state, whether it's having the Democrats control
of the House, Senate and the presidency. However, the fight
for d Z state was never really prioritized, and when
I became the US representative four or five years ago, the.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Conversation about statehood usually relied and ended at Congressional representation,
which is critical for DC. However, since my election, we've
seen things like our old our bills being overturned by Congress,
the National Guard not being deployed on time on January sixth,
Even more recently, the federal occupation of agents on the

(06:59):
ground of DC. So we're seeing people, you know, really
activate behind the idea of DC becoming a state, but
definitely politically we're taking a step back because the same
dynamics that we may have enjoyed in two thousand and
eight isn't here in twenty twenty five. But because of
your platform, because of other people speaking, I believe we
are a getting closer and closer to DC statehood being

(07:20):
an actual issue.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
George, walk me through where how's the state of Puerto
Rican statehood? And if you have a pushback on how
I described the debate, I've always thought that one of
the challenges for Puerto Rican statehood is that the fact
that it isn't at clean there Really there aren't two
sides of the argument in Puerto Rico, there are three
sides to the argument.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
Yeah, well, thank you so much, Chuck for the opportunity.

Speaker 5 (07:44):
The issue of Puerto Rico's statehood is one that has
made a lot of progress in the past decades. As
you mentioned, on the island, political parties aren't necessarily aligned
along the republican and democratic political spectrum. They've mostly been
focused on where the political parties support the different status solutions.

(08:09):
So there's been a very small minority traditionally between two
and about six percent that supports full independence.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
For Puerto Rico, small percent. It's been that small.

Speaker 5 (08:21):
There has been a larger political party that has had
the control of the governorship and the legislature for a
lot of the twentieth century that supports either continuing as
a territory or improving that in some way. They call
it the commonwealth and use that term earlier, but the
reality is the Supreme Court Justice justices have decided in

(08:45):
a number of cases that ultimately, even though that's a
formal name of Puerto Rico, Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, for
the purposes of the US Constitution, Puerto Rico is an
unincorporated territory, meaning that it belongs to the United States.
It's a property United States, but it isn't actually incorporated
into the Union permanently, which is one of the constitutional

(09:06):
differences between Puerto Rico and Washington, d C. Which is
definitely incorporated on a permanent basis into the Union.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
It's written into the Constitution right. DC's existence is written
into the Constitution.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
Exactly exactly, so DC couldn't be made into independent country.
They either become a state, they're retroceeded into another existing state,
or or they stay as what they are.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
You know.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
Right now, with Puerto Rico, we've got different options.

Speaker 5 (09:32):
Right, We've got independence, which a majority of the island
residents have consistently opposed. We've got continuing to be a territory,
which means that you get treated unequally under federal laws
and programs, and you don't have a full participation in
the US Congress that makes the laws that you live under. Right,

(09:53):
so you get kind of this terrible treatment of you know,
unequal treatment under laws and then no representation the body
that makes those laws. And then we've got an added factor,
which is that, like DC, the Congress can actually govern.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
Us at the local level.

Speaker 5 (10:09):
So all states across the Union, they've got the Tenth
Amendment where the state itself is a sovereign and it
reserves all the rights to the states and the people
that aren't explicitly granted to the federal government by the
Constitution in the case of Washington, d C. In Puerto Rico,
Congress can literally pass local laws that govern us, and

(10:32):
in the case of Puerto Rico, they've done so. And
what that has done most recently is mean that we
have a federal oversight board that is essentially ruling Puerto
Rico over and above the decisions of our elected officials.
And what this has done is it has pushed the

(10:53):
residents on the island to recognize the continuing under territory
status isn't the best option. And and over four different
plubisites that have been held between twenty twelve and today,
voters have consistently rejected the current territory status and favored
statehood as the best option for Puerto Rico's future.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
What's been the biggest number on that?

Speaker 5 (11:15):
The biggest number in supportive statehood. The most recent one
was fifty eight percent. And that really just shows that,
you know, nearly two thirds of the residents on the
island supports statehood versus independence. Got like eleven percent.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
Yeah, and it.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Correct me if I'm wrong. So you got a large
majority like that. And there were three choices on the ballot,
not two, correct.

Speaker 5 (11:41):
Yeah, And I'll explain the third choice. Right, So I
mentioned independence, I mentioned statehood. There's a form of independence
called free association. And what this is is a relationship
the United States has with some of the former Pacific
Trust territories that are Palao, Federated States of Micronesia, and
the Marshall Islands, and they're basically independent countries. They've got

(12:03):
their own president, their own passport, their own constitution, but
the United States essentially.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
Protects them militarily.

Speaker 5 (12:11):
The United States uses them as a shield against the
potential influence of China in the Pacific, and in exchange,
they basically get some very limited federal support. But the
people there aren't United States citizens. And in Puerto Rico,
everyone born on the island since nineteen seventeen has been

(12:31):
a United States citizen. And I don't think anyone on
the island really wants to consider any possibility of having
us stripped of our United States citizenship, because what they
would do is it would separate the island's residents from
the three point two million on the island from the
more than six million Puerto Ricans that live stateside.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
And who wants that?

Speaker 1 (12:53):
No one? Oh yeah, I know, DC held won once
about ten years ago, a referendum. Do you think this
needs to be had again? Do you think these I've
always thought the referendums in Puerto Rico actually they were
pr efforts, right, It wasn't just about getting people on
the island to express themselves, but reminding us on the

(13:16):
mainland here, Hey, there are some basically some people who
are not getting full constitutional rights that are American citizens.
Do you think DC should be holding referendums more often
on this issue?

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well, while referendum would bring this issue to the masses,
similar to what Puerto Rico has been doing, we have
seen on a regular basis people walking around talking about DC,
stand going on the news. When it came to the
recent occupation where we had National Guard members in DC,
we have a record high or straight gays. Where is

(13:50):
the CNNs and the msnbcs we're talking about DC staylors.
So I think it's really important for us to keep
that energy. But I do also believe that we also
had to go to other states. You know a lot
of people all across this country. When I go to Utahs,
when I go to Colorado's they don't understand what's going
on in DC, and they think that the district is

(14:11):
just the White House, it's just Congress, it's just the statues,
but not the seven hundred thousand Americas living in DC. So, yes,
the referendum will help, but we also have other means
to get the message forward. As the child represented for
the past four years, I'm not only interacted with people
across the country.

Speaker 6 (14:29):
We also engage with state legislators. We introduce a DC
statehood resolution in West Virginia. We contacted people in Utah.
We went to other states, especially red states, to get
people on record to show that they support DC stately
and as an a media impact, because today's state legislator
it's gonna be tomorrow's congressional candidate, and we can get

(14:49):
people to start becoming fans and champions of DDC stale
before going into office, we in DC have a much
better bet of getting that voting passage in the getting.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
That majority in the Senate, and hopefully getting a president
that understands that this is not just a Parson issue.
This is an American rights issue. I mean, we fought
a war over tax station with our representation. We're still
seeing that happening today. And just combining the elements of
this country with the things that's happening today would be
really really important, like being vocal about the occupation and

(15:24):
not calling it a search, you know, use the words
that really mattered, that really engage people across this country
to really understand that, especially in today's time, DC residents
are so vulnerable compared to other areas. We see Brandon
Scott talking tough, we see we see Brandon Johnson Chicago
talking tough. We see Gavin Newsoen talking tough. But our mayor,

(15:47):
in certain ways, it's compromised because we're not a state.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
And that's what she'll say. I mean, I think she'd
fight more if it wouldn't maybe wreck Home rule completely.
I mean, she was in a real box here because
a Republican House might have stripped Home rule from DC.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
They tried to. There's actually the Bowser Act in the House,
and it's said that Will Lily stripped away our only
way to elect our mayor, the only way to elect
our council, attorney generals under attack, and we're seeing marches
in the street of d C. We just passed the
No King's rally, but a lot of us in office
are afraid to speak on the same way because we're

(16:25):
so compromised by not being a state.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Let me play a little Devil's advocate here. I'm not
saying I'm advocating this, but this has been I've been
here thirty five years and one of the alternative. You know,
just like with with there's sort of a third way
in Puerto Rico that some people have wanted to talk about,
there's a third way in d C, which is what
if DC became part of Maryland? What say you?

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, that's the terms called retro session, you know, Virginia
to the way parts of DC in the past was.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
I I live in the piece of I always say,
I live in Arlington. I tell people where's Arlington? I said.
If you look at a map of d C and
you see the missing square, We're the missing square.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
You are in old DC, My friends, you slim back over.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
No, I that's why I'm old d C. I'm here.
I'm here, trust me.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
But for many reasons, culturally, financially, and politically, you know,
DC doesn't want to be part of Maryland, and Maryland
sorts thought doesn't want us. You know.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, when it comes to our culture, Baltimore fights it.
There's no doubt right there, the dominant culture in the city.
I get that, and they don't, you know, because if
d C became part of Maryland, the center of gravity
would all change in that state.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, right, So we want to be disagressives. We don't
want to fight the fight. We don't want to run
from them by We want to make sure we tree
like everybody else, nothing better than Maryland, Virginia, Ohioans want
to be treated the same exactly, George.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Let me throw up a one wrinkle by you that
I've always found a bit I've just been curious about.
Why shouldn't the Virgin Islands be part of the Puerto
Rico fight for DC statehood? Accuse me? First state of

(18:13):
not DC state? Why shouldn't Why shouldn't the Virgin Islands
sort of almost the same way we have of the
Hawaiian Islands as a state. You know, is because it's
the Virgin Island population is too small to be a
state on its own. Is that is? Is there any
way that that would be of help? Do you think
to your ability to lobby for statehood?

Speaker 5 (18:33):
Well, Chuck, the reality is that the US Virgin Islands
was acquired at a different time by the United States.
They were acquired from Denmark and purchased I believe it
was around nineteen seventeen. Puerto Rico was acquired in Spanish
micrant Ward eighteen ninety eight. The culture and the language

(18:56):
is different. US Virgin Islands are predominantly African American roots
and speak predominantly English.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (19:07):
There's a lot of intermixing, particularly on the Saint Croix,
with people from Puerto Rico, particularly from the municipality of Veeks,
which is right next to the US Virgin Islands. So
there are some strong connections there. But I definitely think
that both territories see their identities as unique and distinct

(19:28):
and separate. I don't think that there has been any
serious discussion, either in Puerto Rico or in the US
Virgin Islands of having the two territories combined under statehood. However,
you know, if you ask me if tomorrow Congress says.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
We'll give you statehood if you add U.

Speaker 5 (19:48):
S v I on as part of state, I'd be like,
I'll take it, you know, and you know, we'll we'll
we'll add them on and we'll treat them with respect,
and you know they'll be The question is informed consent
and consent of the government. Course is that something that
the people in USBI would want? And I don't know,
you know, they've been arguing and trying to figure out

(20:09):
if they can even establish a local constitution now for
several decades.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
So you know that, I think is really what's at
the heart of it.

Speaker 5 (20:17):
We can't just talk about putting together jurisdictions. We had
to go back to America's founding value, which is government
by consent of the government. That requires asking the people
of those jurisdictions what is that they want.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
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(21:35):
to strategy here. I've always believed, you know, if you
look at various statehood expansions, it was never because it
was a good idea to have statehood. It was there
were always political power considerations in the moment. You know,
I always remind people, you know why South Dakota is
a state because Republicans wanted another pair of senators, so

(21:57):
they decided to break up the Dakota. There's no other
re said there's two Dakotas, but it was they wanted.
This was during the fight, you know, the North Loan
out of state, the South Lounaita state, and they were
going to be all these back and forth. So you know,
this is this stuff gets more arbitrary than people realize.
The Dakotas is a perfect example. Their perception of DC

(22:19):
is that it would be two more Democratic senators, which
is why Republicans try to block it. I think it's
pretty clear given the politics of Puerto Rico, you can't
you can't assume anything that it is automatically gonna be
one way or the other. You've got people like Rick
Scott and Marco Rubio, who for years as Florida senators,
have treated Puerto Rico as sort of, hey, you know,

(22:41):
we've got a lot of Puerto Rico, Puerto Rican cities,
people of Puerto Rican descent living in Florida. You know,
we should help Puerto Rico. And so I've always thought
that the two either coming together or neither one gets statehood.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
Do you buy that, you know, personally, I don't think so.

Speaker 5 (22:59):
I think that DC and Puerto Rico have parallel issues
in the sense that they are both jurisdictions where you
have United States citizens that lack full voting rights and
lack full civil rights in the federal government that they
live under.

Speaker 4 (23:18):
And I think that that needs to be addressed. But
the reality is that we're.

Speaker 5 (23:23):
Also coming from different constitutional situations, and we're also coming
from different political situations. And I think that therefore, kind
of conflating the two issues and bringing trying to address
them both together is challenging, right. And in the case
of Puerto Rico, we are in a similar circumstance to

(23:44):
where Alaska and Hawaii were before their admission in nineteen
fifty nine, where we were US territories that have voted
for admission into statehood. And you know, Congress has the
power to admit us. There's no constitutional constraints to that.
The only thing that Congress needs to do is to

(24:05):
pass a law a bill in the House and in
the Senate and have the President sign it.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Right.

Speaker 4 (24:11):
In the case of the.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Made it for two thirds, there's no need for some
extra hurdle.

Speaker 5 (24:15):
Yeah, it just the case at Congress, exactly simple act
of Congress.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Right.

Speaker 5 (24:19):
In the case of Washington, d C. It can be admitted, uh,
in the same way. But there is the issue of
how do you deal with the territoriality of Washington, d C.
Versus the seat of government, right, And that is a
constitutional question that needs to be addressed. And it is

(24:41):
also possible that you know, in response to the twenty
third Amendment, another amendment to the Constitution may need to
be passed, and that really is quite different from the
you know, process of admitting Puerto Rico as a state.
I know that, and and fully respect all the different
ideas for how that can be done. But I'm just

(25:03):
saying it's a different track procedurally.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Oh, I address that because I've seen so. I know it.
When this got a little bit attraction when it passed
the House about a decade ago, we had you know,
there was I remember, I think some people had some
maps that in order to essentially make sure this wasn't
you know that you weren't violating the Constitution. The District

(25:27):
of Columbia would still exist. The Federal District would simply
shrink down to I want to say, you know, for
those thinking of the map out loud, think I guess
between Pennsylvania Avenue and the river essentially. But but maybe
you can give me some more details on that. Oh, yes,
you both are one.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Hundred percent right. Under the Constitution, a new state of Columbia,
which you know, our own version of the new DC
would look like we would basically shrink the US capital
to the federal encrep think the Congresses, think the Why House,
Supreme Court in the monuments outside of that would be
the new state of Columbia. Now, while my friend right

(26:08):
here is one hundred percent right. There are two different
tracks for Puerto Rico and DC becoming a state. When
it comes to the political reality of it, states are
added by the duo. There is no party will allow
one state to come in and potentially wreck the uneven
balance of power. Now, when Hawaii and Alaska were admitted
as into the Union, Hawaii was seen as a Republican

(26:29):
state and Alaska was seen as the liberal state. Now
in due time, they flipped. Now, unfortunately today's Republican Party,
they know they can't get new people to join their party,
so instead they just take away people's voting rights and
try to retract and restrict the amount of votes available.
So I don't think the Republican Party is that interested

(26:50):
in l n DC become a state. I don't think
they can win us over. However, they do feel in
my gad, I've talked to some sanators and talked to
some staffers in the House. The only way they'll really
start thinking about DC becoming a state is that they
can have a republic in Carowell to it. I know
in the past they were willing to grant Congresolman Norm
vote if they added a seat in usaw but like

(27:12):
I said before, there will be no democratic state at
it unless there's a Republican counterpart. And they're as sure
as hell will be here republican states at it. This
is a democratic a democratic counterpart. Now that may not
be fair, but as a reporter Steve Basemith said, the
only thing, the only thing that's fair is where pigs
are sold. So this is politics.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
We have to deal with it.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
And at the end of the day, in order for
DC become a state, they probably need to be that
counterbalancing acts to manage the plical difference.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Look, I want I'm gonna play moderator here. Look I
think I get it. I think I'm gonna just be honest.
Oh yeah, you need Puerto Rico as your partner to
get statehood. Puerto Rico, what's that? You need a dance partner?
And I think George is arguing, you know, I could
probably do this without a dance partner.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
And I see, I.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Sort of see where George where you're coming from on that,
because there's been such a bipartisan history of both parties
going back and forth with the governor's office and both
parties successfully raising money off the island. Right there, is
a bit more of a bipartisan tradition in Puerto Rico
that probably wouldn't spook party leaders from either side of

(28:23):
the aisle.

Speaker 5 (28:24):
Yeah, and you know, this is not something that is
theoretical to me. I've actually served governors that have been
Republicans and Democrats. I've seen support on this issue from
both Democratic and Republican House and Senate members. The issue
has a long history of bipartisan support when it comes

(28:46):
to Puerto Rico. But what I can also very much
acknowledge is that, you know, Puerto Rico is a question
mark when it comes to where things will pan out,
you know, electorally after admission as a state. Just like

(29:07):
with Alaska and Hawaii, what you mentioned is one hundred
percent right. You know, they were looking at Alaska as
the democratic state and Hawaii as as the Republican state,
and you know, things ended.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
Up being the exact opposite.

Speaker 5 (29:20):
There's nothing that can guarantee that Puerto Rico, if it's
admitted into a state, will be a democratic state and
a republic or republican state. Although right now, if we
look at the current makeup of the political leadership in
Puerto Rico, the Resident Commission or Puerto Rico's non voting
member in the House is a Democrat, but the governor

(29:43):
is a Republican, and the speaker in Puerto Rico's houses
a Republican. The majority of the representatives in Portrico's legislature Republicans,
and the leader in the Senate is a Republican, and
the majority of the Senators in.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
Puerto Rico are Republicans.

Speaker 5 (29:59):
So it really does present a situation where members looking
at it from Washington need to actually look at what's
happening electorally on the island, and also the geographic reality
of Puerto Rico. Much like any other state, the urban
areas tend to be significantly more liberal, and if you

(30:21):
look at the rest of Puerto Rico, the rural areas
tend to be significantly more conservative. And that's a little
bit of a challenge for DC because DC is almost
entirely an urban area right in.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
If the population estimates, it would be four congressional seats
for Puerto Rico roughly, how would that break up. Would
it be two in San Juan and then the rest
of the island would be broken up that way or.

Speaker 5 (30:46):
How it would depend on how the districting is done,
which is also something very interesting because as we're seeing
right now with the whole effort to redo districting nationwide,
if you had a Republican majority in Portos we have
right now decide to draw district maps that would you know,
end up favoring Republicans, then you know, maybe that could

(31:07):
be the.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Outcome woe or something.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
But you know, the realities we don't know.

Speaker 5 (31:12):
When we've had shadow delegations appointed and then elected to
serve and represent Puerto Rico, we've had them fifty to
fifty split. They've been half Democrats and half Republicans, And
I think that ultimately that is actually what's most representative
of the island's population because we've never had the chance

(31:35):
to draw our own district maps and elect our own
centers representatives, so we just have to use the data
that we have up to nout.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Look. In total, there are four point three million people
without full American citizens, without full rights that live in
these territories, either District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, or any
of these states and territories. Is there a middle ground
at all that would give everybody more rights without statehood?
Oh yeah, let me start with you. I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
I'll be quite honest, I don't think so. If the
question was just about voting representation in Congress, then maybe
there'll be a half measure that makes everybody happy.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Well, you might get a member in the House, but
not in the Senate, like right, right, the conversations that we're.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
Having, but that requires a constitutional amendment. We're back to that.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
But give me one second. So when we had in
twenty twenty five our local budget slash and we had
to almost get rid of teachers and firefighters, when you're
seeing the President send the National Guard to patrol areas
in our communities and send ice to grab people face
off how they look. The only thing that protects DC
residents is statehood. This is no longer just how many

(32:46):
votes we can count Congress. This is really an opportunity
for DC residents to have full ownership over our lives
on local governance. There is no half measure to it.
I know. Earlier my friend here said we're far away
from from d C State. Well, within the last six
years we passed the d C State and the Missions
Act in the House. I would say anything like that. Puerto Rico,

(33:07):
we have forty more than forty centers cosponds from the
bill to make DC a state. I don't know we're
out Puerto Rico. So I do believe there is a
pathway forward for DC residents to become residents of the state.
I think we have to push forard on that because
it means so much more than just count of both
of Congress.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
George, the same question to you, do you think there's
a is there some half measure that gives more rights
to whether you live in Guam, Puerto Rico, or DC.

Speaker 5 (33:34):
So you know, I think with the smaller territories in
the Pacific and the US Virgin Islands, there is a
separate question than the one that we have for Washington,
d C. And for Puerto Rico, just because of the
population size, right, and the fact that in none of
those territories they've actually expressed themselves by votes that they

(33:56):
want to end their territorial status and that they want statehood.
One thing that is one hundred percent in alignment between
DC and Puerto Rico is that in both places you've
had voters express their consent to ending the territorial status
in the case of Puerto Rico and the seat of
government status in the case of DC and you know,

(34:18):
express their desire for statehood. The half measures don't work,
and i'll tell you why. In the case of Puerto Rico,
you can get additional federal funding and maybe treated you know,
equally in certain federal programs, but the territorial clause allows
any future Congress to claw that back at any point.

(34:39):
So even if you can get like full Medicaid parity
or full parody nutritional assistance or whatever else that we
don't have unequal right now, any future Congress can say, no,
we're taking it away, and that you can't build an
economy that's sustainable.

Speaker 4 (34:54):
Off of that.

Speaker 5 (34:54):
And then the other piece is that ultimately, if every
single day, Congress and the federal government are passing laws
and regulations that apply to the territory, and Puerto Rico
doesn't have representation that's equal in the House and zero
presentation in the Senate, and doesn't have any representation in

(35:15):
the Electoral College, then how can we expect to have
oversight over the federal agencies that apply these laws and policies,
And how can we expect the interests and the goals
and aspirations of the US citizens of Puerto Rico to
be taken into account in the legislative process. You can't
and any half measures to try to give Puerto Rico,

(35:38):
you know, and a representative in the House, or you know,
a single representative that can vote. That would require constitutional
a hounta. That's harder than passing statehood. Right, It's easier
to pass a statehood admission bill than it is to
pass an amendment to give Puerto Rico one voting representative
in the House, and that single vote would not compensate

(35:59):
that island for the representational gap in the demographic democratic
deficit that currently exists.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
The Congressional Black Caucus has been a huge advocate of
DC statehood, and it may explain why a bill got
on the floor of the House and did get passed.
What has been the How would you explain why there
hasn't been a similar effort for Puerto Rico.

Speaker 5 (36:26):
Well, you know, the reality is that we have had
two bills past the House, one in twenty ten and
the most recent one in twenty twenty two. The last
one in twenty twenty two, it's called the Puerto Rico
Status Act, passed with a bipartisan majority that included unanimous
Democratic support in the House and sixteen Republican votes, which is,

(36:50):
you know, quite impressive given this overall level of polarization
that we see in American politics nowadays. The bill had
at that point a state of administration policy from UH
then President Biden, and in the following session of Congress
we did have that bill reintroduced because the US Senate

(37:11):
just didn't have enough time to address you say.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
LA status, what what is? What would specifically would that
bill do? Put it basically that.

Speaker 5 (37:20):
Congress has a responsibility and Puerto Rico's colonial territory status
and offers voters UH single vote between the three non
territorial options of statehood, UH, independence and independence with free association,
which is this bilatteral Marshaled Marshall Island idea.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:43):
And what ended up happening is the Senate didn't pass
that UH, but it was reintroduced in the following session,
and we had twenty seven senators supported, all of them Democrats, UH,
no Rick Scott, no Rick Scott, and no Marco Ruvial. However,
since then, we have had at least one Republican senator

(38:04):
express his support for Puerto Rico's statehood, and that is
the Senator from Oklahoma, Mark Wayne Mullen, which is also
very interesting.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
Because he's just the President's here exactly right.

Speaker 5 (38:18):
So it does reflect the continued bipartisan nature of the
Puerto Rico.

Speaker 4 (38:25):
Statehood push.

Speaker 5 (38:28):
But what ended up happening in Puerto Rico is that
Congress didn't act, but locally, we decided, you know what,
we're going to continue sending the message from our citizenry.
So we took that same ballot that was designed in
the Puerto Rico Status Act, and we put it up
to voters literally exactly as it was written and passed
by the House of Representatives. And that's what happened last November,

(38:50):
and fifty eight percent of voters supported statehood for Puerto Rico.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
And this was the strongest version of independence that's ever
been on the meaning the independence with essentially protection from
the United States, and the fact that that couldn't get
the number that it got, I.

Speaker 5 (39:07):
Think, yeah, so so independence just beer independence got like
just under twelve percent, eleven point eight free association, which
is a form of independence that in that case was
included even continued US citizenship after you know, being made
a sovereign country, right, which I ultimately don't think that

(39:31):
Congress would pass it in that way. But you know,
it was a really nice offer that only got twenty
nine percent, and you ended up with fifty eight percent
supporting you know, full statehood, and that really shows that
the majority of people in Puerto Rico don't want to
continue under the current territory status and they want statehood.

(39:52):
And now it's it's up to Congress act. But as
Aye said, it's not just Congress. It's up to the
American people across all all of the states to say,
we need to end a circumstance where we have nearly
four million fellow American citizens that are being denied their
full rights, and we need to have an active conversation

(40:12):
about how we offer full enfranchisement and full democratic rights
to the citizens of Puerto Rico, of DC, and even
of the other territories.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
And there may be.

Speaker 5 (40:24):
Different solutions for each one, but that fundamental principle, that's
a debate that has to happen for America as a whole.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
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he was talking about how he's been going to other
states trying to get resolutions passed. Have you tried that?

(42:24):
And I was just inton, I was just gonna say,
let's do it Florida, New York. Right, if you had
a Governor de Santis at a Governor Holcal signing the
same resolution, that'd be pretty good, a pretty good piece
of marketing material for you with and.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
And we're working on that.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
There is a state side advocacy movement that supports statehood
for Puerto Rico. We've been working on that in the
Statehood Council for many years. There's also been another effort
called the Extended Congressional Delegation that's been working on it
for the past few years. And there's literally, you know,
tens of thousands of US citizens from across the country

(43:07):
that support statehood for Puerto Rico. And you know, also
national polling has shown this. You know, I think that
the Gallup polls have shown for decades that over you know,
sixty percent of Americans support statehood for Puerto Rico.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
I want to get before I let you both go,
I want to get to the financial consequences of a
lack of statehood. You hinted at it a bit, George, Oh, yeah,
you were talking. We were talking a bit more about
obviously control of the budget, right, some of that home
rule decisions. But is there a you know, do you
get less Medicaid reimbursements in DC because of the status?

(43:45):
What do you can you put a dollar figure on
what you think statehood costs the district financially.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
We lose millions, if not billions of dollars by not
being a state. Years ago, when we were battling the
pandemic together and they passed legislation that will provide billions
of dollars to shade the combat the COVID pandemic, d
C was regulated to becoming a territory. It's released. We
lost about half a million, half a billion dollars.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
So did Wyoming get more money?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Wyoming got more, Maryland got more, Virginia.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Got less people. Yeah, than the district. That's why sing
Wyoming absolutely.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
And unlike Puerto Rico on other locations, we were a
landlocked So the problems that Maryland was spilled into d C.
And just to piggyback on from a previous conversation, the
things I've done in other states were two tiered. It
wasn't just enough to tell people that we deserved DC statehood.
We also made sure that folks understood how their lives
would improve by us becoming a state, us having voter representation.

(44:44):
When I went to Boone County, West Virginia, where I
was the only black guy around, I didn't stop the
conversation by d C residsts, mostly minority people deserve equal rights.
We talked about the issues that they cared about, let
in their water, not having an access to employment, the
coal industry is evaporating, and talking about some of the
things that I've experienced living in common sights south East Washington,

(45:06):
d C. Bridge of those gaps and understanding that a
center from d C, voting representative from d C can
actually pass legislation that then center mansion or capital wasn't
passing and really engaging them in a way that they
felt that they gained from DC becoming a state.

Speaker 4 (45:27):
It helped a lot.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
And I advise anybody who's buying for a statement to
also make sure that we let them know what their
investment needs to folks living in other places outside of
Puerto Rico or outside of d C.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
George put a dollar figure on it. You were talking
about when it comes to certain funding things and the
lack of equity. Oh, you just talked about it with
COVID funding. If Wyoming is getting more dollars for fewer
people than DC, that does seem unequal. What's give me
a few examples in Puerto Rico.

Speaker 4 (45:57):
In the case of.

Speaker 5 (45:57):
Puerto Rico, it is definitely very explicit that Puerto Rico
receives unequal treatment under federal laws and programs. And this
not only impacts negatively the quality of life of people
on the island, but it actually spurs people and pushes
them to leave.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
Right.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Oh, that's why they I mean, that's why they leave
right Not usually?

Speaker 5 (46:17):
Yeah, And so the areas some of the main areas
where Porto Rico gets treated unequally. Most egregious is in
Medicare and Medicaid, so our elderly people don't get the
same level of financial support for their medical care.

Speaker 4 (46:32):
So let's say if the average.

Speaker 5 (46:34):
Medicare Medicare patient in the States gets about fifteen thousand
dollars per year given to them for their healthcare coverage,
in Porto Rico's five, you know, and that means that
there's a huge reduction in the amount of money going
into our medical service providers. Our hospitals are nurses, so

(46:56):
all the basic care are you know, lower income family
These in Medicaid get you know, less support services too,
and that has a massively negative impact on the economy
because ultimately, these.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
People are your workforce.

Speaker 5 (47:10):
So if they're if they're more sick, if they're more
impacted by chronic illnesses that aren't being able to be treated.
Because with Puerto Rico we don't have enough money in
our Medicaid system to have long term care access, that's
a huge problem for our economy and our society, and
it also impacts.

Speaker 4 (47:27):
The local budget.

Speaker 5 (47:28):
Portugo gets different treatment under nutritional assistance, so we have
one of the highest child poverty rates in the entire
United States, and and that's devastating. You're talking about, you know,
money that is not coming in to support children in
their critical moments of physiological development, and that impacts educational outcomes,

(47:52):
that impacts long term outcomes in terms of their socioeconomic
mobility because you know, you just didn't get the support
at the ritical moments when when you needed it. So
these deficiencies and lack of equality amount to tens of
billions of dollars in less money that's flowing through the
economy in Puerto Rico every single year. And as a result,

(48:16):
the overall quality of life on the island is lower,
which means more people leave, and then that creates a
negative spiral that we're in. The more people leave, the
more consumer demand goes down. The more consumer demand goes down,
the more businesses have to shutter, the more your tax
base gets reduced, the worse your fiscal circumstance, you know,

(48:38):
the higher the share of per capita debt for the
debt that you already have in your jurisdiction. But you know,
I think one key point that made that I would
like to also reiterate. You know a lot of people
stateside have this misconception that Puerto Rico is just a
jurisdiction that takes from the federal government, and that just

(48:59):
is not true. Puerto Rico actually pays more in federal
taxes than at least three states in the nation, even
though in Puerto Rico, local residents do not pay federal
income taxes on their income that they derive from the island.
And the other piece is that in Puerto Rico, we
have about seventy billion dollars worth of annual interstate commerce

(49:22):
between the island and the States. So Puerto Rico actually
helps to generate profits and jobs for companies stateside that
are employing people and that are making an economic difference
in Florida, in New York, in Texas, you know, throughout
the entire country. Because guess what, for example, in Puerto
Rico we import you know, I think it's over eighty

(49:44):
eighty five percent of the you know, fresh fruit products.

Speaker 4 (49:49):
Most of that's coming from the States. Most of that
is being farmed state side.

Speaker 5 (49:53):
So if we grow the pie by giving Puerto Rico
the quality that it needs to have an equal playing field,
what we see is the same thing we saw with Alaskan, Hawaii,
which is a process of economic integration where the territories
grew economically in a very significant way and they ended
up helping the other states because then those states had

(50:17):
more of a market to sell their products and services
to and we grow.

Speaker 4 (50:21):
The pie of the American economy as a whole.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Look, I can confess that I know what happens to
DC is that people leave because of the lack of representation,
and so I know the tax base would be stronger
in DC they had they had statehood. You know, people
like myself might not have left, and others might not
have left. I'm curious.

Speaker 5 (50:43):
I'm a former DC resident myself, by the way, and
now live in Virginia.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
So no, you sit there and you you know it.
The unfairness, unfair treatment of DC. Everybody starts. You know,
at the end of the day, you worry about yourself, right,
bottom line, everybody does. Last question for both of you,
Oh yeah, I'll start with you, which is are there
businesses that won't relocate to d C because of the
lack of statehood? And is that a maybe? Is there

(51:10):
a way to fire up the business world to support
something like this as well? I just think about other
ways to create more support outside of traditional political lines.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Absolutely. I mean, right now there is a recession in DC.
We are the highest unemployment because of the massive cuts,
whether it's Elon Musks, Doge, or Trump's continue planning to
fire more federal workers during the shutdown. DC residents are
in need of a new industry. And one industry that
comes to mind us really, obviously, maybe because I'm a

(51:48):
Nigerian American, is the international development scene. You go to
New York, you go to Manhattan, you see you and
a Seth, You see the un you even see the
Millennium Hotel on the Manhattan Island. And imagine if DC
had that scene. Given our lack of statehood, given our
political stagnation, the fact that because we're not a state,

(52:08):
we don't have governors, we don't have a thousand different
things could run for, Like if you're in Virginia or
man we only have looks like four or five seeds.
It makes it much harder for us to create those
new industries. Whereas all we leaned on was the government.
All we leaned on was contractors and sings like that.
So when Trump kind of sweeps them away, where it

(52:28):
can't just left but naked outside.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
It's tough to diversify your economy.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Absolutely. I think something we should do is bring in
those NGOs, those things that we've see in other areas,
because DC can be the home of that, but lack
we stay here. We have seen how hard it is
to do the best and bring in and recruit businesses
and take a chance on the niches capital.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
George, I assume there's some business because you talk about
that that specific law that if you earn money on
the island you supposedly don't get to pay taxes on
which feels like more like a loophole for an accountant
than it is like a pragmatic approach to building a business. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (53:05):
So, you know, the issue with Puerto Rico's economic development
model since the nineteen fifties and then accelerated more recently,
is that a lot of the economic development has been
industrialization by invitation based on tax exemption, right since Puerto
Rico is not subject to federal income taxes for income

(53:28):
derived on the island or federal corporate taxes for income
derived on the island. For Unfortunately, that same model that
was done for the industrialization of Puerto Rico in the
nineteen fifties and sixties. That led to a massive manufacturing
base on the island. We produce many of the top
ten pharmaceuticals for the United States. We do a ton

(53:51):
of pacemakers and other medical devices. So a lot of
people think about Puerto Rico. They think is like beaches
and rama. Right, It's not just that we've got some
really amazing advanced manufacturing that's going on on the island.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
It's critical to meet America's national supply chain.

Speaker 5 (54:06):
But if that development is all based on federal tax
loopholes that at any point future Congress can change, you
create a fragility in Puerto Rico's economic development model. And
that's exactly what happened with a provision of the IRS
tax Code called Section nine thirty six. It was phased
out from nineteen ninety six to two thousand and six,

(54:27):
and we did see a significant decline in manufacturing on
the island. With statehood, what you get is you get
more certainty around the possibility of investing in the jurisdiction
because you know what you're.

Speaker 4 (54:42):
Going to get.

Speaker 5 (54:42):
You know that you're going to get equal treatment to
all the other states. You're not going to have a
circumstance where Congress, for example, extends the medicaid funding for
a little while and then decides to drop it off afterwards,
or improves you in this area and then takes away
this tax break. The other thing that you get when
you have statehood is you have senators and representatives that

(55:04):
can fight, and they can advocate, and they can trade
their votes, and they can make sure that whenever a
bill passes, whether it's on transportation issues, environmental issues, labor issues,
education issues, the interests of your constituents in your jurisdiction
are taken into account. And right now we don't have that,

(55:25):
and that is a huge limiting factor for our economic development.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Here's what I can tell you. Any American citizen living
in one of the fifty states, if they if they
left one of those fifty states and realize what rights
they don't have living in the district in Puerto Rico,
they'd be angry. And what's interesting about this is that
giving STATA to DC and Puerto Rico wouldn't change anybody
else's life in any other of the fifty states. It

(55:51):
is what would be the argument that what hard I
can't think of the argument of harm to the other
fifty states. No, I guess it would be carving up
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Oh yeah, I've heard things like people want to see
only fifty stars in the flag but don't know that
fifty Yeah, that's ridiculous, but also an incentive. There are
people who would like being the fiftieth vogue, being the
forty ninth folks.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
So even if so, somebody will enjoy being the fifty
second vote or the fifty third vote. What's wrong with that?

Speaker 2 (56:25):
You know?

Speaker 1 (56:26):
I could do, man, there's fifty two cards in a deck.
We could have fifty two stars on a flag. I
want to bring you back to the hell shot. You
gotta come on me.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Like me.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
I mean, my issue is fifty one. That's harder to
divide up. Fifty two. That's you know, even number. We
know how to work that. But that's the yeah, I mean,
in all seriousness, you know, other than I guess, dividing
up the pie. But these are all American citizens already,
so they're already getting a smaller piece of the pie,
but they should be getting a fuller one.

Speaker 5 (57:01):
So way was transparent with regards to the issue of
political power. And you know, some people feeling threatened by
the potential admission of a new state. You know, I'll
be transparent with the issue of language and culture. You know,
there's some people who outright argue that if Puerto Rico
were admitted into the Union, you know, we'd suddenly have
you know, a whole bunch of US citizens that speak Spanish.

(57:22):
And to me, that argument is laughable because, believe it
or not, the United States has more Spanish speakers as
current United States citizens than Puerto Rico does, right, you know,
there's forty million, you know, Hispanics in the United States.

Speaker 4 (57:38):
Spanish is the second most spoken language in the I.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Don't mean interrupt, but how many states were added in
the in the nineteenth century where majority spoke German? Yeah,
a majority spoke right Like, I mean this, this is
not We did this all the time in the nineteenth century.

Speaker 5 (57:54):
And there's many states to this day that have multiple
official languages Alaska, why Alaska, and New Mexico, some of
them even have them baked into their constitution for God's sakes.
So if that hasn't been an issue for them, why
isn't an issue for us?

Speaker 4 (58:10):
Now? I think it's just another cheap excuse.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Well, look, I think that there's no doubt. There's no
doubt that some people listening to this or watching this
will assume that identity is playing a bigger part of
this than any of us want to talk about. And
it's hard to separate it out right. You just brought
up the language issue, George. Oh yeah, we know that
there's others that you know, the having two black senators

(58:33):
and you just sitt there going it kind of feels antiquated, right,
These arguments feel very early twentieth century at best.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
Absolutely, yeah, And there are things that America has to
work through if we're going to become a stronger, more democratic,
more inclusive country and a country that really abides by
its founding values of equal justice under the law and
government by consent to the government.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Uh. And I'll use the phrase more perfect union. That's right,
you got this would help us be a more perfect union.
The message that would be sent if we did have
two states that were majority minority in this country, it
would it would speak volumes around the world anyway.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Oh yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
George, you guys are terrific at this. It almost was
a mini debate, is but but it wasn't meant. I mean,
I really look, I I'm the I'm the you know,
the the faux expert here of political what what of
the political side. So I do believe ultimately, you know,
you guys will live together or die together on this.

(59:42):
But we shall see. Oh yeah, and George, good luck
to both of you.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
Appreciate it so much

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Interview Only w/ Rep. Oye Owolewa & George Laws Garcia - Democracy Denied: Inside the Push for D.C. & Puerto Rico Statehood

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Interview Only w/ Rep. Oye Owolewa & George Laws Garcia - Democracy Denied: Inside the Push for D.C. & Puerto Rico Statehood