November 14, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode, Karol sits down with Mario Loyola, Senior Fellow at the Heritage Foundation, for a wide-ranging conversation on Jewish history, the modern challenges facing Israel, and the global lessons learned from the rise of Nazism. Loyola breaks down today’s geopolitical climate, why democracies must stand united, and how Hamas has become increasingly isolated in the Arab world. They also explore the future of artificial intelligence, how emerging technologies could reshape global production, and the role of forgiveness and resilience in Jewish culture. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Wednesday & Friday.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome back to Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is Mariola Yola, the Senior Fellow in Law, Economics,
and Technology at the Heritage Foundation and a professor at
Florida International University. He's also a frequent contributor to National Review,
Wall Street Journal, and many others, and a friend of mine.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hi, Mario, so nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi Carol, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
You know, I associate you so closely with Florida, but
you're kind of a DC guy.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
No am I I wrong about that?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Oh my god. It's like the worst thing you could
have said.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Is that an insult? But I just like heart feeling.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
This is exactly the time of the year when I
start to get the District of Columbia effective disorder and
really wish that I was on the beach where I belong.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Come home. What are we doing?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Yeah, well you might be seeing me down there sooner
than you think.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Okay, good good. So I've known you a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I think of you as a very international affairs guy.
You're not Jewish, but you have what I would consider
a special relationship with Jews and with Israel. Would that
be a fair assessment.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yeah, absolutely, it's you know, it's been a long time
in the making. I think maybe I'll write an article
about this journey, I guess one of these days. But
this is a subject that, you know, was when I
started out, was almost entirely an academic of academic interest
to me, I had never really I was in college.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I majored in.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
European history at the University of Wisconsin, and which is
really a focus on Russian and German history. And so
of course anybody, any fair minded person who studies a
lot of Russian and German history is going to feel,
you know, it's going to come out of that experience
feeling very.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Protective of Jewish people.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
But this was really really just one of many sort
of strands of history that I always wanted to know
more and more about, like military history back to classical times.
And so I was building up my library of Jewish history.
And I actually remember picking up I used to I
was living in New York City. I remember picking up
at the strand of this wonderful History of Israel by
(02:18):
I think it's Howard Zachar's.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
History of Israel.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
And this was around the time that the Second Antifada
had just started, and so everybody in New York City,
of course, instantly had an opinion about this conflict. And
I didn't know what my opinion was, but I knew
that none of these other people who had very strong
opinions about it had any idea what they were talking about.
So I decided to start reading, and I spent the
summer of two thousand and one. I remember taking this
(02:43):
History of Israel to Tompkins Square and sitting time in
Tompkins Square, and then there and I remember reading the
September ninth.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Of two thousand and one.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I was reading about the Lebanon War, and I was
up to Subra and Shatila, and all of a sudden,
the book sucked me into its narrative.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It's not a great time to be a friend to
Jews right now.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Like if you tweet anything supportive of Israel or of
the Jewish community, you get comments like, oh, you're being
paid seven thousand dollars for this tweet, which I keep
waiting for that cash and it never hits my bank account.
I think it's probably the same for you. The money
just never arrives from Benjamin Yahoo.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Why do you do it?
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Well, I've actually been promised honorary Israeli citizenship by the NAM.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Just that it's easier actually actually that you might get.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I have discovered that defending defending Jewish peoples it involves
a really astonishing amount of time arguing with Jewish people.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
But anyway, that's.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Another Sorry about that, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
But no, that's another topic. But I will say this
is something that, you know, one of my preoccupations in
college was was, how did this you know this the
German people that the most literate society in the world, right,
the first society to achieve ninety five percent literacy, the
people who, you know, the society that gave us Bach
(04:08):
and Mozart and these wonderful philosophers and the greatest many
so many of the greatest scientists in history. How did
these people fall for such a primitive and savage and
sadistic cult as Nazism. And it just made me wonder, God,
if it can happen to the Germans, maybe it can.
Maybe it's something, and maybe it's Sti Leviathan in ourselves
right and and you know, but it still seemed for
(04:31):
most of my adult life it seems so far away,
right because the one thing we could all agree on
was that Nazism is bad.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It is an easy call, right.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, easy call.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
And you and now you know, for those of for
the people who were wondering how it was that Nazism
was able to seduce so many German university students and
musicians and chicken farmers. Now you're watching it all around you, right,
and you see what it is is that these victim
narratives are are very and they're very easy to manipulate.
(05:02):
And yeah, you know, you get into it and you
think free Palestine. Of course, well why shouldn't we free Palestine?
The Palestine Palestine's need to be free. And people don't
realize that if you actually study the history of this
whole thing, all of these words have like made up definitions.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
The whole thing is like this propaganda psyop and deconstructing
that history is very very important, right because as you've
pointed out, as I've pointed out, one hundred years ago,
the word Palestinian was most likely being used to describe
a Jewish person, right, because Palestinian is somebody who lives
in Palestine. There's fifty nationalities in Palestine. I have an
(05:40):
Encyclopedia Britannica, which I also bought at the Strand from
nineteen eleven or something. There's a very long article on
Palestine in there, but the word Palestinian does not appear once, right, Right.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Did you always want to go into international affairs?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I did.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I always wanted to go into international affairs from when
I started reading started reading history. I mean it was
I had the conviction that, you know that what the
reason why World War two happened was that there was
something that gave a dictatorship more freedom of action, like, right,
(06:17):
I mean, Adolf Hitler could show up in the morning
say one thing to the industrialist and another thing to
the labor unions in the afternoon, and that and that
there was something about the response of the democracies as
the Nazis rose to power and as Germany armed for
war that was like very paralyzed, right, I mean very sluggish.
There were many points in time when it was like obvious,
(06:39):
what would happen if they didn't act to intervene. For example,
let's just take an example, to prevent the union of
Austria and Germany, which left you know, Czechoslovakia surrounded on
three sides it was obvious that if this union was
allowed to proceed, that the German Germany's ability to conquer
Europe would become somewhat unstoppable.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
And yet because they were like so you know, enthralled
by self determination and the Wilson's fourteen points and all
of these like paper things, they and their pacifist publics,
they allowed themselves to be lulled into this. You know,
we call it appeasement in the West, but the French
have a better term for it, which is attantismo, which
is just not to appease, but to wait, right, just
(07:22):
wait for this thing to go away. And they were
just lulled into like waiting, waiting around while you know,
these these doubles armed for war, and they just filled
me with the conviction that in international relations we needed
to democracies to defend themselves, needed to have the capacity
for much faster action.
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Carol Marko, which show continues right after this.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You know, this is not a show about politics, but
I find you so interesting and I want to hear
what you have to say about this. I'm going to
I'm going to limit it to just a couple of questions.
But it's not a hot time for the argument that
democracies need to stand together. For example, even you know,
pro Israel people will say, don't use the whole thing
about we have common values. You know, it's irrelevant, and
(09:52):
that there's this sense of like, because we had the
nation building exercise with Iraq and we tried to bring
democracy to these.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Hour blands, that it was a foolish.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Thing that we did, and therefore democracies have nothing in
common and we shouldn't necessarily stand together.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
What do you say about that?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Well, this is I've been to Israel many times and
this is actually a topic of conversation that I have
with with israelis One thing I'll note is that, you know,
part of what produces such a potentially explosive situation in
the Middle East is almost like you know, how a
battery is like positive ions on one side of a
membrane and then negative ions on another.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah, you have this like grade.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
The gradient formed by these opposite charges creates this enormous
potential energy. And it's somewhat the same in the Middle East, right,
because you have this like very successful flourishing society in
Israel and then these very moribundu on the other side,
and to some extent, the potential for conflict is always
(10:52):
going to be there as long as that you know,
that differential exists, right, And so I think that it's
one point that I like to make is that as
long as they're as long as Israel is not surrounded
by similarly flourishing societies, there's going to be a problem there.
And this is an important point to make to Israelis
because I feel like Israelis are, you know, the furthest
(11:15):
The most conservative Israeli politician is like in many ways
to the left of the Democratic Party when it comes
to a lot of economic regulation.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Well and other things too.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I think that most people in Israel I would describe
as just flat out anti war.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Yeah, anti war, but also like kind of socialist right,
and I think that they don't realize how much the
much markets and property rights and freedom of association and
freedom of these basic democratic values that are traditional, well
at these pre progressive values from the founding of the
(11:52):
United States. This is really the answer for Israel and
for all the region right is just to have flourishing
societies in which people can and find their own way
and invent their own futures, and people can really provide
for their their children.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So it would have been Mario's Plan B if you
didn't go into international affairs.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Well, actually the plan B that I when I went
to law school. I remember from my first week in
law school thinking to myself, you better have a Plan B,
because this could really have been a serious mistake.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Was it?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And I think was it a mistake?
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I'm not ready to answer that question yet, asked me
in a decade, but I think this is probably most
law students are likely to feel in the first week
of law school like they may have made a major mistake.
I remember having a Plan B at the time, which
was I felt confident that with a like sonar device
I would have a competitive advantage over other fishermen in
(12:48):
Sri Lanka and I would just like move to Sri
Lanka and become like a successful That's plan B.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
That was always that was always my plan B.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You might still do that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Could that be something you do down the would become
the saunar fishermen of Sri Lanka.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
It's possible. I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted
to get there. I haven't made it to the Indian
side of the Indian Ocean yet, but I hope too soon.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
What are you most proud of in your life?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I mean, well, besides the obvious having a family and
my wonderful children and having very much married up. I
would say that there is I would say what am
I most proud of? Well, I think that I would
say that one of the things I'm most proud of
really is my friendship with Jewish people and my relationship
(13:37):
to Judaism. I've been I've had the opportunity to study
at Tikva institutes and these things. I'm Roman Catholic, of course,
as I think you mentioned, uh, and but I really
have come more and more, you know, I said at
the beginning, back around September eleventh, you know, the history
of Judaism and of Jewish people was like a very academic,
(13:58):
very interesting subject to me, was a very academic subject
I didn't really have any personal relationship to it, And
now over the years have made so many great friends
and you know, have just I just feel like, you know,
like Jewish people have really been a blessing to me
and are a blessing.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Not all of them, though I know some of our
mutual friends. You know, they can't all be blessings.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Well, but I think in general, right, like the Jewish people. Right,
But but and I think, you know, we I think so,
And what have we learned from them? What have I
learned from them is to be really thoughtful, to really
try to think about things from other people's point of view,
and to be in many ways, like I think, very idealistic, right,
(14:42):
you know, to get back to politics. If you think
about the situation that we're having now with Israel, this
is a lot of Israeli's put a lot of hope
and a lot of idealism into the Oslo piece process,
right into the withdrawal from Gaza. They were time and
again willing to forgive people don't know this his story, right,
but this is you know, time and again they've responded
(15:03):
to these like unspeakable acts of cruelty.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Back to the Hypha Masic one hundred years ago, right.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Uh. And they've been somehow been able to just be
forgiving and uh and uh and be willing to let
bygones be bygones.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
How yeah, and uh and uh and in the end,
you know, uh have really been uh uh And what
do they want to do? They just want to be
left alone to like study music, right, and and study
the law, and study study economics and study things and
(15:39):
create things. And I think that that is another thing
that's really that's really worthy of emulation.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
And if you think about about the Talmudic commentary, I mean,
I've never studied the Talmud, but I have seen the time.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I'm studying it right now, it is extremely boring and.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well and and but what do we do when we
when we are thinking about text, right, and we're thinking
about editing a text or writing a text, is really
looking very carefully at a small piece of text and
kind of thinking about how, uh you know, all of.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
The implications and all of the things that it could mean. Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
And this is like the right way to study law, right.
And it's just uh, it's just been just such a
you know, an inspiration to study right I mean, this
is like one of the cultures in the world where
like being a student gives you like the highest Yeah,
what is a rabbi? Rabbi, it's like a student, right,
It gives you like the highest social status possible is
(16:34):
not to be an athlete.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
But to be a student.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Right, And I really, I really have I feel like
have tried to live up to that.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
We're recording this a few days after the hostages came
home in Israel and the ceasefire began.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It's writing a little tenuous.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Hamas hasn't returned the bodies, and there's been some skirmishes
in Gaza.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Are you hopeful about the future of Israel there? Are
you hope hopeful about the whole region?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
I am, in some ways more hopeful about Israel than
I am about a lot of democratic countries.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I understand that.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, but but I will but I will say that
I think that you know, the world has gotten It's
just amazing to me and very unfortunate. The extent to
which like this mind virus of the PLO PLO propaganda,
right has I mean, you can't it's like they're every
(17:34):
word chagrins you. After a while, if you really understand, right, Like,
we're not talking about the occupied territories. The Palestinian Liberation
Organization already existed before any of these territories were occupied.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Occupation really just means that you have a Jewish neighbor. Right,
That's really what occupation means. And the whole thing is
like this big high falutin you know, Marxist version of
Juda and ryin policy. I say this because one of
the things that like Western governments have come to accept,
even like on a bipartisan basis in the United States,
(18:06):
even among friends of Israel. Besides this like two state
solutions stuff that has been like obviously a fantasy since
at least two thousand and five, is this idea that
like occupation is like the worst possible thing. Right, this
word occupation, I mean so many different things in the
real world. You know. At the end, I was saying
to a friend the other day that your you know,
(18:27):
the likelihood that a person supports Israel is like directly
proportional to how well they understand what happened.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
In World War two.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Right, And one thing that I've been saying from the beginning,
you can go back and see I had an article
in National Review October. I think it was just days
after October seventh and twenty twenty three where I pointed out,
you know that when there was you know, civil war,
General Donaldson asked ulysses as Grant for ceasefire and what
were his terms? And ulysses as Grant said, unconditional surrender.
(18:57):
Those are the only terms I can be accepted, right,
I'm not going to negotiate terms with you. And obviously
in World War Two, there was a pact at the
very beginning, actually this was the pack that led to
the founding of the United Nations, was an agreement among
all the allies not to seek a separate peace with
the Nazis and to keep fighting until the unconditional surrender
(19:18):
of the Axis powers. Yeah, and then this was really
really little light really was illuminating for me. My first
job in the government was at the pen End in
what's called the Secretary's Hallway, which is the hallway in
the Pentagon, the Eisenhower Hallway, it's called, which is the
hallway in the Pentagon that the Secretary of Defense's office
is on.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
It's called the Eisenhower Hallway.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
And there are like little cases of different periods in
Eisenhower's life.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And one of these cases is from when Eisenhower was
Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force, so that crossed
into Europe, into the continent of Europe on D Day,
and there is this placard that is Proclamation number one
of Schaefe of Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force in English
and German, that was like posted all over like light posts,
(20:10):
all over Germany. And the first thing that it said is,
you know, we come as conquerors.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
We are.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
All orders of the occupation authority will be obeyed immediately
and without question. We're going to completely extirpate this entire
society of Nazism. We're going to break and remake all
the institutions, the courts, the schools, and just uproot this
terrible ideology. And I think that until there and so
(20:41):
I think that all of this is a big, long
winded way of saying that, you know, It's what I
have been worried about all along, is that the only
alternative to a continuation of Hamas. I've thought from the
beginning that if Hamas is allowed to stand, is left
standing at the end of this conflict, then the conflict
must continue because there will never be coexistence with the Maas,
(21:04):
and it can only end in unconditional surrender. And so
the only alternative to Hamas rearming and Hamas executing people
in the streets and Hamas terrorizing everyone again and arming
to fight another day is a military occupation and a
military government, right, an extended period of military occupation.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
But the problem.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Is would it right?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Right?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
I mean, people would rather this is the thing that
university students don't understand. You would rather occupy, like, you know,
sat a moon of Saturn than occupy Gaza.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Right. Nobody in the world whs to occupy Gaza, not
even the Palestinians want to occupy Gaza, right uh? And
or at least govern a Gaza, right uh?
Speaker 4 (21:47):
And And so unfortunately, I think that we've got a
situation where now we've I don't know the question back
to you, I mean, do you think that there's any
hope for leadership and administration in Gaza that's not by Hamas?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
H I'm not very optimistic about that.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
But I think that October seventh woke up the Israelis,
so I don't worry as much about them.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I think that Israel is not.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
They're just not the country they were on October sixth,
and they are this like super peace loving people. And
you know, it bothers me because sometimes I'm like, snap
out of it, like stop caring about your enemies so much.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
And I'm talking about right wingers over there. The right
wingers are like.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
We can't just destroy the Palestinian people. And you know
the fact that they're so concerned with what happens to
their enemies is it has its pluses.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And minus Israeli Israeli Israeli self.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
This is one of the things that I would love
to be able to share with college students across America
is that one of the great perpetuating factors of this
conflict is Israeli self restraint right so much.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
I mean, I don't know how they do it, because
I would not be as restraint, but not even just
say yeah. One thing that does give me a lot
of hope, though, is that, you know, it's already been
obvious for many years that within the Arab world, Hamas
and the Palestinian terrorists, the Arab terrorists, I don't even
like using the word Palestinian, the Arab terrorists of Palestine
(23:13):
are isolated in the Arab world for a long time.
Their main source of support has actually been a non
Arab state of Irani.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, and now it's like, yeah, I don't think they
have them anymore.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Right, And so now we've were for at least for
a while like these other you know, Hesbolo was such
a terrifying prospect, one hundred and fifty thousand missiles Israeli's
just wipe them out in a matter of ten days, right.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I know.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Yeah, And so what you have now is emerging from
the war. I think that the Palestinian you know, the
Arab resistance movement, which means, by the way, for those
of you who think that this is really a resistance,
all this resistance really wants is just to get all
the Jews out of Palestine. Yeah, and I may use
whatever means necessary so resistance and scare quotes, but this
(24:00):
resistance has never maybe never been as isolated as it
is right now. And that is a very hopeful sign.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Give me a five year out.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Prediction can be about anything, the world, music, anything you want.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I believe that and I think Israel is likely to
be at the forefront of this. I think that the
I'm very hopeful about artificial intelligence and the.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I don't get that a lot on this show. I
got a lot of doom.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Yeah, yeah, No, I think the doomers are Luddites.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
I think that the reason why I'm hopeful about it
is that, to use even Marxist terms, this is maybe
the greatest democratization of the means of economic production that
we've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Right, Yeah, I've become like a designer on there. I
can make logos, you.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Know, exactly right.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
So I was just going to say that, you know,
when the PC first arose, remember this term. You might
be too young to remember, but there used to be
this thing called desktop publishing, which was like a fancy
way to describe, you know, what you could do with Microsoft.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Word or whatever.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
We're now we are now suddenly in an age of
desktop film making.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, it's cool, but.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
We're now in an age of where anybody with a
computer is going to be able to uh spectacular works
of art and science and engineering. And this is going
to unleash competition that we've normally just associated with, like
corporations and things that only corporations can invent, Like big
(25:36):
corporations have the resources to invent, and suddenly everybody, anyone
can invent them, right, And so that democrat is a
putting in the hands of every single you know, man
and woman and sometimes even child in America, the children, Yeah, right,
resources that we've normally associated with big corporations is is
(25:57):
a really wonderful thing, and it's going to unleash a
new sort of age of competition and invention that I
think will be just as great a boon to human
progress as electricity was.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I love it. I love the optimist. That's really great. Well,
I have loved this conversation, Mario.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I think you are fantastic and I've loved getting to
know more about you on this episode. Leave us here
with your best tip for my listeners on how they
can improve their lives.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Read history books on your spare time, and make as
much spare time.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
As you can.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I love that he is Mario Loyola.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Check him out at National Review, at Wall Street Journal,
and many many places.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
He is just terrific. Follow him on x at Mario Loiola.
Thank you so much, Mario, Thank you, Carol
Hi, and welcome back to Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is Mariola Yola, the Senior Fellow in Law, Economics,
and Technology at the Heritage Foundation and a professor at
Florida International University. He's also a frequent contributor to National Review,
Wall Street Journal, and many others, and a friend of mine.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hi, Mario, so nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hi Carol, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
You know, I associate you so closely with Florida, but
you're kind of a DC guy.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
No am I I wrong about that?
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Oh my god. It's like the worst thing you could
have said.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Is that an insult? But I just like heart feeling.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
This is exactly the time of the year when I
start to get the District of Columbia effective disorder and
really wish that I was on the beach where I belong.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Come home. What are we doing?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Yeah, well you might be seeing me down there sooner
than you think.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Okay, good good. So I've known you a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I think of you as a very international affairs guy.
You're not Jewish, but you have what I would consider
a special relationship with Jews and with Israel. Would that
be a fair assessment.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yeah, absolutely, it's you know, it's been a long time
in the making. I think maybe I'll write an article
about this journey, I guess one of these days. But
this is a subject that, you know, was when I
started out, was almost entirely an academic of academic interest
to me, I had never really I was in college.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I majored in.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
European history at the University of Wisconsin, and which is
really a focus on Russian and German history. And so
of course anybody, any fair minded person who studies a
lot of Russian and German history is going to feel,
you know, it's going to come out of that experience
feeling very.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Protective of Jewish people.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
But this was really really just one of many sort
of strands of history that I always wanted to know
more and more about, like military history back to classical times.
And so I was building up my library of Jewish history.
And I actually remember picking up I used to I
was living in New York City. I remember picking up
at the strand of this wonderful History of Israel by
(02:18):
I think it's Howard Zachar's.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
History of Israel.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
And this was around the time that the Second Antifada
had just started, and so everybody in New York City,
of course, instantly had an opinion about this conflict. And
I didn't know what my opinion was, but I knew
that none of these other people who had very strong
opinions about it had any idea what they were talking about.
So I decided to start reading, and I spent the
summer of two thousand and one. I remember taking this
(02:43):
History of Israel to Tompkins Square and sitting time in
Tompkins Square, and then there and I remember reading the
September ninth.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Of two thousand and one.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I was reading about the Lebanon War, and I was
up to Subra and Shatila, and all of a sudden,
the book sucked me into its narrative.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It's not a great time to be a friend to
Jews right now.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Like if you tweet anything supportive of Israel or of
the Jewish community, you get comments like, oh, you're being
paid seven thousand dollars for this tweet, which I keep
waiting for that cash and it never hits my bank account.
I think it's probably the same for you. The money
just never arrives from Benjamin Yahoo.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Why do you do it?
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Well, I've actually been promised honorary Israeli citizenship by the NAM.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Just that it's easier actually actually that you might get.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I have discovered that defending defending Jewish peoples it involves
a really astonishing amount of time arguing with Jewish people.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
But anyway, that's.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Another Sorry about that, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
But no, that's another topic. But I will say this
is something that, you know, one of my preoccupations in
college was was, how did this you know this the
German people that the most literate society in the world, right,
the first society to achieve ninety five percent literacy, the
people who, you know, the society that gave us Bach
(04:08):
and Mozart and these wonderful philosophers and the greatest many
so many of the greatest scientists in history. How did
these people fall for such a primitive and savage and
sadistic cult as Nazism. And it just made me wonder, God,
if it can happen to the Germans, maybe it can.
Maybe it's something, and maybe it's Sti Leviathan in ourselves
right and and you know, but it still seemed for
(04:31):
most of my adult life it seems so far away,
right because the one thing we could all agree on
was that Nazism is bad.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It is an easy call, right.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, easy call.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
And you and now you know, for those of for
the people who were wondering how it was that Nazism
was able to seduce so many German university students and
musicians and chicken farmers. Now you're watching it all around you, right,
and you see what it is is that these victim
narratives are are very and they're very easy to manipulate.
(05:02):
And yeah, you know, you get into it and you
think free Palestine. Of course, well why shouldn't we free Palestine?
The Palestine Palestine's need to be free. And people don't
realize that if you actually study the history of this
whole thing, all of these words have like made up definitions.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
The whole thing is like this propaganda psyop and deconstructing
that history is very very important, right because as you've
pointed out, as I've pointed out, one hundred years ago,
the word Palestinian was most likely being used to describe
a Jewish person, right, because Palestinian is somebody who lives
in Palestine. There's fifty nationalities in Palestine. I have an
(05:40):
Encyclopedia Britannica, which I also bought at the Strand from
nineteen eleven or something. There's a very long article on
Palestine in there, but the word Palestinian does not appear once, right, Right.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Did you always want to go into international affairs?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I did.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I always wanted to go into international affairs from when
I started reading started reading history. I mean it was
I had the conviction that, you know that what the
reason why World War two happened was that there was
something that gave a dictatorship more freedom of action, like, right,
(06:17):
I mean, Adolf Hitler could show up in the morning
say one thing to the industrialist and another thing to
the labor unions in the afternoon, and that and that
there was something about the response of the democracies as
the Nazis rose to power and as Germany armed for
war that was like very paralyzed, right, I mean very sluggish.
There were many points in time when it was like obvious,
(06:39):
what would happen if they didn't act to intervene. For example,
let's just take an example, to prevent the union of
Austria and Germany, which left you know, Czechoslovakia surrounded on
three sides it was obvious that if this union was
allowed to proceed, that the German Germany's ability to conquer
Europe would become somewhat unstoppable.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
And yet because they were like so you know, enthralled
by self determination and the Wilson's fourteen points and all
of these like paper things, they and their pacifist publics,
they allowed themselves to be lulled into this. You know,
we call it appeasement in the West, but the French
have a better term for it, which is attantismo, which
is just not to appease, but to wait, right, just
(07:22):
wait for this thing to go away. And they were
just lulled into like waiting, waiting around while you know,
these these doubles armed for war, and they just filled
me with the conviction that in international relations we needed
to democracies to defend themselves, needed to have the capacity
for much faster action.
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Carol Marko, which show continues right after this.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You know, this is not a show about politics, but
I find you so interesting and I want to hear
what you have to say about this. I'm going to
I'm going to limit it to just a couple of questions.
But it's not a hot time for the argument that
democracies need to stand together. For example, even you know,
pro Israel people will say, don't use the whole thing
about we have common values. You know, it's irrelevant, and
(09:52):
that there's this sense of like, because we had the
nation building exercise with Iraq and we tried to bring
democracy to these.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Hour blands, that it was a foolish.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Thing that we did, and therefore democracies have nothing in
common and we shouldn't necessarily stand together.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
What do you say about that?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Well, this is I've been to Israel many times and
this is actually a topic of conversation that I have
with with israelis One thing I'll note is that, you know,
part of what produces such a potentially explosive situation in
the Middle East is almost like you know, how a
battery is like positive ions on one side of a
membrane and then negative ions on another.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yeah, you have this like grade.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
The gradient formed by these opposite charges creates this enormous
potential energy. And it's somewhat the same in the Middle East, right,
because you have this like very successful flourishing society in
Israel and then these very moribundu on the other side,
and to some extent, the potential for conflict is always
(10:52):
going to be there as long as that you know,
that differential exists, right, And so I think that it's
one point that I like to make is that as
long as they're as long as Israel is not surrounded
by similarly flourishing societies, there's going to be a problem there.
And this is an important point to make to Israelis
because I feel like Israelis are, you know, the furthest
(11:15):
The most conservative Israeli politician is like in many ways
to the left of the Democratic Party when it comes
to a lot of economic regulation.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Well and other things too.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I think that most people in Israel I would describe
as just flat out anti war.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Yeah, anti war, but also like kind of socialist right,
and I think that they don't realize how much the
much markets and property rights and freedom of association and
freedom of these basic democratic values that are traditional, well
at these pre progressive values from the founding of the
(11:52):
United States. This is really the answer for Israel and
for all the region right is just to have flourishing
societies in which people can and find their own way
and invent their own futures, and people can really provide
for their their children.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So it would have been Mario's Plan B if you
didn't go into international affairs.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Well, actually the plan B that I when I went
to law school. I remember from my first week in
law school thinking to myself, you better have a Plan B,
because this could really have been a serious mistake.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Was it?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And I think was it a mistake?
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I'm not ready to answer that question yet, asked me
in a decade, but I think this is probably most
law students are likely to feel in the first week
of law school like they may have made a major mistake.
I remember having a Plan B at the time, which
was I felt confident that with a like sonar device
I would have a competitive advantage over other fishermen in
(12:48):
Sri Lanka and I would just like move to Sri
Lanka and become like a successful That's plan B.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
That was always that was always my plan B.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You might still do that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Could that be something you do down the would become
the saunar fishermen of Sri Lanka.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
It's possible. I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted
to get there. I haven't made it to the Indian
side of the Indian Ocean yet, but I hope too soon.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
What are you most proud of in your life?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I mean, well, besides the obvious having a family and
my wonderful children and having very much married up. I
would say that there is I would say what am
I most proud of? Well, I think that I would
say that one of the things I'm most proud of
really is my friendship with Jewish people and my relationship
(13:37):
to Judaism. I've been I've had the opportunity to study
at Tikva institutes and these things. I'm Roman Catholic, of course,
as I think you mentioned, uh, and but I really
have come more and more, you know, I said at
the beginning, back around September eleventh, you know, the history
of Judaism and of Jewish people was like a very academic,
(13:58):
very interesting subject to me, was a very academic subject
I didn't really have any personal relationship to it, And
now over the years have made so many great friends
and you know, have just I just feel like, you know,
like Jewish people have really been a blessing to me
and are a blessing.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Not all of them, though I know some of our
mutual friends. You know, they can't all be blessings.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Well, but I think in general, right, like the Jewish people. Right,
But but and I think, you know, we I think so,
And what have we learned from them? What have I
learned from them is to be really thoughtful, to really
try to think about things from other people's point of view,
and to be in many ways, like I think, very idealistic, right,
(14:42):
you know, to get back to politics. If you think
about the situation that we're having now with Israel, this
is a lot of Israeli's put a lot of hope
and a lot of idealism into the Oslo piece process,
right into the withdrawal from Gaza. They were time and
again willing to forgive people don't know this his story, right,
but this is you know, time and again they've responded
(15:03):
to these like unspeakable acts of cruelty.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Back to the Hypha Masic one hundred years ago, right.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Uh. And they've been somehow been able to just be
forgiving and uh and uh and be willing to let
bygones be bygones.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
How yeah, and uh and uh and in the end,
you know, uh have really been uh uh And what
do they want to do? They just want to be
left alone to like study music, right, and and study
the law, and study study economics and study things and
(15:39):
create things. And I think that that is another thing
that's really that's really worthy of emulation.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
And if you think about about the Talmudic commentary, I mean,
I've never studied the Talmud, but I have seen the time.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I'm studying it right now, it is extremely boring and.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Well and and but what do we do when we
when we are thinking about text, right, and we're thinking
about editing a text or writing a text, is really
looking very carefully at a small piece of text and
kind of thinking about how, uh you know, all of.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
The implications and all of the things that it could mean. Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
And this is like the right way to study law, right.
And it's just uh, it's just been just such a
you know, an inspiration to study right I mean, this
is like one of the cultures in the world where
like being a student gives you like the highest Yeah,
what is a rabbi? Rabbi, it's like a student, right,
It gives you like the highest social status possible is
(16:34):
not to be an athlete.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
But to be a student.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Right, And I really, I really have I feel like
have tried to live up to that.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
We're recording this a few days after the hostages came
home in Israel and the ceasefire began.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It's writing a little tenuous.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Hamas hasn't returned the bodies, and there's been some skirmishes
in Gaza.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Are you hopeful about the future of Israel there? Are
you hope hopeful about the whole region?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
I am, in some ways more hopeful about Israel than
I am about a lot of democratic countries.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I understand that.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, but but I will but I will say that
I think that you know, the world has gotten It's
just amazing to me and very unfortunate. The extent to
which like this mind virus of the PLO PLO propaganda,
right has I mean, you can't it's like they're every
(17:34):
word chagrins you. After a while, if you really understand, right, Like,
we're not talking about the occupied territories. The Palestinian Liberation
Organization already existed before any of these territories were occupied.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Occupation really just means that you have a Jewish neighbor. Right,
That's really what occupation means. And the whole thing is
like this big high falutin you know, Marxist version of
Juda and ryin policy. I say this because one of
the things that like Western governments have come to accept,
even like on a bipartisan basis in the United States,
(18:06):
even among friends of Israel. Besides this like two state
solutions stuff that has been like obviously a fantasy since
at least two thousand and five, is this idea that
like occupation is like the worst possible thing. Right, this
word occupation, I mean so many different things in the
real world. You know. At the end, I was saying
to a friend the other day that your you know,
(18:27):
the likelihood that a person supports Israel is like directly
proportional to how well they understand what happened.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
In World War two.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Right, And one thing that I've been saying from the beginning,
you can go back and see I had an article
in National Review October. I think it was just days
after October seventh and twenty twenty three where I pointed out,
you know that when there was you know, civil war,
General Donaldson asked ulysses as Grant for ceasefire and what
were his terms? And ulysses as Grant said, unconditional surrender.
(18:57):
Those are the only terms I can be accepted, right,
I'm not going to negotiate terms with you. And obviously
in World War Two, there was a pact at the
very beginning, actually this was the pack that led to
the founding of the United Nations, was an agreement among
all the allies not to seek a separate peace with
the Nazis and to keep fighting until the unconditional surrender
(19:18):
of the Axis powers. Yeah, and then this was really
really little light really was illuminating for me. My first
job in the government was at the pen End in
what's called the Secretary's Hallway, which is the hallway in
the Pentagon, the Eisenhower Hallway, it's called, which is the
hallway in the Pentagon that the Secretary of Defense's office
is on.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
It's called the Eisenhower Hallway.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
And there are like little cases of different periods in
Eisenhower's life.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And one of these cases is from when Eisenhower was
Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force, so that crossed
into Europe, into the continent of Europe on D Day,
and there is this placard that is Proclamation number one
of Schaefe of Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force in English
and German, that was like posted all over like light posts,
(20:10):
all over Germany. And the first thing that it said is,
you know, we come as conquerors.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
We are.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
All orders of the occupation authority will be obeyed immediately
and without question. We're going to completely extirpate this entire
society of Nazism. We're going to break and remake all
the institutions, the courts, the schools, and just uproot this
terrible ideology. And I think that until there and so
(20:41):
I think that all of this is a big, long
winded way of saying that, you know, It's what I
have been worried about all along, is that the only
alternative to a continuation of Hamas. I've thought from the
beginning that if Hamas is allowed to stand, is left
standing at the end of this conflict, then the conflict
must continue because there will never be coexistence with the Maas,
(21:04):
and it can only end in unconditional surrender. And so
the only alternative to Hamas rearming and Hamas executing people
in the streets and Hamas terrorizing everyone again and arming
to fight another day is a military occupation and a
military government, right, an extended period of military occupation.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
But the problem.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Is would it right?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Right?
Speaker 4 (21:27):
I mean, people would rather this is the thing that
university students don't understand. You would rather occupy, like, you know,
sat a moon of Saturn than occupy Gaza.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Right. Nobody in the world whs to occupy Gaza, not
even the Palestinians want to occupy Gaza, right uh? And
or at least govern a Gaza, right uh?
Speaker 4 (21:47):
And And so unfortunately, I think that we've got a
situation where now we've I don't know the question back
to you, I mean, do you think that there's any
hope for leadership and administration in Gaza that's not by Hamas?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
H I'm not very optimistic about that.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
But I think that October seventh woke up the Israelis,
so I don't worry as much about them.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I think that Israel is not.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
They're just not the country they were on October sixth,
and they are this like super peace loving people. And
you know, it bothers me because sometimes I'm like, snap
out of it, like stop caring about your enemies so much.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
And I'm talking about right wingers over there. The right
wingers are like.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
We can't just destroy the Palestinian people. And you know
the fact that they're so concerned with what happens to
their enemies is it has its pluses.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And minus Israeli Israeli Israeli self.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
This is one of the things that I would love
to be able to share with college students across America
is that one of the great perpetuating factors of this
conflict is Israeli self restraint right so much.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
I mean, I don't know how they do it, because
I would not be as restraint, but not even just
say yeah. One thing that does give me a lot
of hope, though, is that, you know, it's already been
obvious for many years that within the Arab world, Hamas
and the Palestinian terrorists, the Arab terrorists, I don't even
like using the word Palestinian, the Arab terrorists of Palestine
(23:13):
are isolated in the Arab world for a long time.
Their main source of support has actually been a non
Arab state of Irani.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, and now it's like, yeah, I don't think they
have them anymore.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Right, And so now we've were for at least for
a while like these other you know, Hesbolo was such
a terrifying prospect, one hundred and fifty thousand missiles Israeli's
just wipe them out in a matter of ten days, right.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I know.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Yeah, And so what you have now is emerging from
the war. I think that the Palestinian you know, the
Arab resistance movement, which means, by the way, for those
of you who think that this is really a resistance,
all this resistance really wants is just to get all
the Jews out of Palestine. Yeah, and I may use
whatever means necessary so resistance and scare quotes, but this
(24:00):
resistance has never maybe never been as isolated as it
is right now. And that is a very hopeful sign.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Give me a five year out.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Prediction can be about anything, the world, music, anything you want.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I believe that and I think Israel is likely to
be at the forefront of this. I think that the
I'm very hopeful about artificial intelligence and the.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I don't get that a lot on this show. I
got a lot of doom.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Yeah, yeah, No, I think the doomers are Luddites.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
I think that the reason why I'm hopeful about it
is that, to use even Marxist terms, this is maybe
the greatest democratization of the means of economic production that
we've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Right, Yeah, I've become like a designer on there. I
can make logos, you.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Know, exactly right.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
So I was just going to say that, you know,
when the PC first arose, remember this term. You might
be too young to remember, but there used to be
this thing called desktop publishing, which was like a fancy
way to describe, you know, what you could do with Microsoft.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Word or whatever.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
We're now we are now suddenly in an age of
desktop film making.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, it's cool, but.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
We're now in an age of where anybody with a
computer is going to be able to uh spectacular works
of art and science and engineering. And this is going
to unleash competition that we've normally just associated with, like
corporations and things that only corporations can invent, Like big
(25:36):
corporations have the resources to invent, and suddenly everybody, anyone
can invent them, right, And so that democrat is a
putting in the hands of every single you know, man
and woman and sometimes even child in America, the children, Yeah, right,
resources that we've normally associated with big corporations is is
(25:57):
a really wonderful thing, and it's going to unleash a
new sort of age of competition and invention that I
think will be just as great a boon to human
progress as electricity was.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I love it. I love the optimist. That's really great. Well,
I have loved this conversation, Mario.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I think you are fantastic and I've loved getting to
know more about you on this episode. Leave us here
with your best tip for my listeners on how they
can improve their lives.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
Read history books on your spare time, and make as
much spare time.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
As you can.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I love that he is Mario Loyola.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Check him out at National Review, at Wall Street Journal,
and many many places.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
He is just terrific. Follow him on x at Mario Loiola.
Thank you so much, Mario, Thank you, Carol
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