Who Is Donald Trump Behind Closed Doors? Former Trump Lawyer Opens Up

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's not often that you get to meet people who
are some of the most fascinating people that exist, people
that have experienced not only business at the highest level,
but politics at the highest level, who have a comprehensive
understanding of complex problem sets and their ability to solve

(00:23):
those in extreme environments. And so the fact that one
of my friends, George Sorial, has decided to join us
today is not both just exciting for me because of
the amount of respect I have for this man, but
also because of the knowledge base he has and our
ability to share that with all of you. So, without

(00:45):
further ado, I'd love to welcome George to the show.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thank you, David, my honor, my pleasure to be here.
Those are some very kind words. I'm not sure I
deserve them all, all right, that's what you always say,
but I do appreciate them. So thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
Good, You're welcome. I think you know everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Obviously we're in this crazy space of the tsunami of
news stories and how they've were no longer contained in
this eight channel you know, fish bowl of information, and
now it's at an all time high. In particular, you

(01:26):
spend five seconds on X and it's there's so many
independent journalists going around and what I've seen, in particular
as the president has now moved into his second term
is is the craziness is even more expansive, and it's
the whole thing is is who is he?

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Why does he do? Why is he operate like this?
What gives him the right for this? Or he's like
this or he's like that.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
You're a person that has known the president intimately for
twenty five years now, and I thought it would be
interesting to start the conversation with what it was like
working in his organization, working for him, the relationship, but

(02:10):
more importantly, the dynamic of running a multi billion dollar
organization around the world, and what that was like.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Sure, well, I think shortly I would first say that
I really enjoyed it. It wasn't you know. If somebody
had told me thirty years ago, when I was starting
my career that it would have gone this way and
I'd be working with a person like Trump, I would
never have believed it. I immigrated to this country when I

(02:39):
was a child two years old. They actually arrived in
New York by boat. My father was an educated person,
as was my mother, but they didn't have any means
they didn't have much money. We literally arrived on a
boat for me. Well, no, my father is an Egyptian
Christian Coptic. He left Egypt in the sixties and was

(03:03):
finishing his medical training in England. My mother is Scottish
from the Isle of Lewis, and there's a little bit
of story to that. Born in the same town as
President Trump's mom. That was one of the ways that
we became close. But they met in England. I was
born in England, lived in Egypt for about a year,

(03:23):
came back to England, and then eventually immigrated to the
United States. At the time, there were shortage of positions
in America and my father was recruited to come over there.
He was a head and neck surgeon. But again, I,
like many people, I went to college. I didn't really
have a plan. I was supposed to be a doctor

(03:47):
like my father, but that didn't really work out. So
I kind of went to law school by default. I'm
just being very honest and blunt, and I spent some
time in government. I did amount of time in law firms.
Then I met Trump. I actually met him on the
other side of a deal.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
It was a we were representing a group of Wall
Street guys that were trying to develop a project in
Northern Jersey, which is now where Trump Bedminster is, and
literally David at the groundbreaking ceremony. And this will give
you some insight into what he's like as a person.
I walked up to him, and you know, as a
kid who grew up in Northern Jersey, Trump was always

(04:26):
a larger than life character with the casinos, with everything else.
And you know, here I am, this guy's helping himself
to some shrimp. So I walked up to him and
I introduced myself, and you know, I said, look, I
have something in common. I'd always heard that your mom
was from Lewis. Well, that's where my mom was from.
And you know, we ended up having a conversation, and

(04:49):
then it came up in the conversation and I was
looking to buy an apartment in Manhattan. So he gave
me the number a woman named Bronagraph. She was the
office manager, and told me, I, you and Trump Worll Tower,
you know, call Rona on Monday. Now, a lot of
people in that sort of social setting will make statements.
I'll give me a call and then, yeah, but I

(05:12):
called Rona and A couple of days later, I was
in his office looking at floor plans and I bought
an apartment. Wow, And that was kind of the beginning
of the relationship. You started to give me some work.
He'd called me up every now and again and asked
me to attend events. I ended up buying the apartment.
I became president of the board there, and then two

(05:33):
thousand and six he called me up one day and said,
I bought all this land in Scotland. You're going to
come and work for me. We're going to honor our mothers.
Just like that. I didn't really know much on a call. Hey,
come down and come down, come and meet me. You know.
The rest is history. But at the time I was
really a corporate lawyer focused on M and A. I

(05:55):
did a little bit of real estate work, but I
certainly wasn't really equipped to take that job of building
a golf course, hotel and homes. But I just have
always had this thing in me, David, that every so
often I feel that I need to pivot and do
something different with my career and with my life. And

(06:17):
where do you.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Think that comes from.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
I just had this conversation with my good friend Sean
Ryan just the other night, and the way we thought,
as he described it as, Oh, I get to a
point where I've exhausted the excitement in it and I
want to go do something else.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
Is it that you think it's.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
A combination of I think a bunch of things. Maybe
part of it is that, Really what you're talking about
is boredom, the need to do something else. I've never
been afraid to take on new challenges. I definitely am
not the smartest guy out there, but I learned pretty quickly.
I'm observant and I like to be challenged and take

(07:00):
on new things. Life is short. You really have to
enjoy what you're doing career wise. It amazes me how
many people go through life, you know, just going through
the ins and outs of the day, and the weeks
go by and they're not happy. You spend a huge
amount of time at work, so you really need to
do something that you love. And this is kind of
a Trump thing. If you don't love what you're doing,

(07:22):
you're not going to be good at it. That was
kind of part of the ethos. The Trump organization was
an interesting place. There was really kind of un challenged
loyalty to everybody, so That was a big theme there.
Everybody was loyal to each other. There was a high
level of trust and respect, but there was also people

(07:45):
that were there liked what they're doing, so loyalty and
love job. It really made, you know, for a really
nice work environment.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Was it a difficult transition coming from a big law
firm in New York where you know, it's that's every
six minutes, it's that it was hours to now it's like, hey,
here's the mission, figure it out.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
It was. It was different, and you know, I just
become a partner, which you know, lawyers worked towards that.
So it was kind of a sobering moment. I mean
I went to my firm and you know, I asked
the powers that be, you know, look, I want to leave.
I got this offer from Trump, and I said, go

(08:30):
go go work for Go work for Donald. It'll be
good for a couple of years and then you'll come back.
I said, okay, you know that. That was the other
part of it, David, how do you turn down an
opportunity like that? Can't I said to myself, what's the
worst case scenario. I'm going to do something new. I'm
going to work with this man. I mean I took
my my dad's advice was just do it. You're going

(08:53):
to enjoy it. You know, you could always do something different.
That's another thing too, Nothing is you know forever. You
can always pivot in a job and a career. And
I think that is what part of what makes persons successful,
is that willingness to take on new challenges and not
have fear about doing different things.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
And I think you think that's really what entrenches somebody
in that inability to see the potential in the risk.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
It's that fear.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
It's that core change is a trigger for fear. And
there's nothing wrong with fear. We're all scared at some point.
It's really how you react and manage fear. And I
think in some ways fear of a new challenge at

(09:46):
work is exciting and it can really motivate you and
bring the best out of you. I mean, some people,
when you put them under pressure, crack, you know, Others
become diamonds. So I think it's one of the things
that I was blessed with. If you know, some may
say you're just plain old stupid, you know, leaving something that.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
It's the first generation immigrant mindset, But you know, there was.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Something really appealing to me about you know, I'd always
respected him, Yeah, I'd always admired you know, how diverse
his career had been. It's not just real estate, casinos,
there's books, there's television and then you know, oh, by
the way, he goes into politics when he's in his
seventy at the highest level. But he's a person that

(10:33):
I always respected, and you know, quite frankly, I was
a little bit starstruck. I think, like anybody would be,
for sure, and I said to myself, you know, there's
no losing here. Going to work for this this this
person and his family. I don't think I would ever
regret it, and that really, you know, I came in
I was pretty clueless. Yeah, I initially did legal work,

(10:56):
but really by the second or third month I was there,
I was heavily involved in development. And really Scotland Aberdeen
was my first project and I was sent over there
with the remit that this would be an easy one
and it turned into a battle on many levels. Politically,

(11:17):
we fought with many you know, you name the environmental group.
You know. It really turned out to be a seven
or eight year chunk of my life. Well, that was
extraordinarily difficult at times.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Did he do you think he knew how hard it
was going to be and he's like, let's see how
the kid does.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
No, I don't think we didn't think it would be
as challenging as it was. And you know, initially we
had a couple of stumbles. You know, there was a
very difficult hearing that didn't go my way. There was
a lot of screaming and yelling. But you know, I

(11:54):
got a very interesting call from him late Latin that
night and he said, im down, put your bulletproof vest
on and get up, and we're going to fight this.
And I remember at the time he said to me,
you know, in some ways, when you don't get what
you want the first time, it's better when you win.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
Talk about premonition, talk about yeah, a paradigm.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah right, But you know, really, in a long way
to answer your question, you know, I really enjoyed working
with him. He you know, there's a whole side to
him that we all see on television. But as a
person that worked for me, I think I've said it
publicly many times. You know, I just did a series

(12:42):
a year or so for Fox and they asked me,
you know, what did you think about him? And the
way I described it is really short of my own
mother and father. There's a handful of people in life
that have done, you know, a lot for me, and
you know, certainly President Trump is on that list of
I can't think of too any more people aside from

(13:04):
my own parents. Think of the magnet that massive that
you know, that did so much for me and I.
I you know, my wife also worked with him. That's
how we met. Uh So we're one hundred percent Trump fans.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
You're telling me that I don't even know how how
she ended up working for him, because she should have
been painting pictures out in Central Soho.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
You know, he's one of the best artists I've seen.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Her story is remarkably you know, she came out of Texas,
looked in New York, didn't know anybody, responded to an
agency ad and all of a sudden this sitting in
his office and he hired her. But you know, brave,
brave to leave a small Texas town to New York.
A lot of people get lost, but you know she
did well. So we're a whole where Trump family has been.

(13:53):
He's been good to us.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Well, and I think that's that's a real challenge for
so many people. Is it is the persona, right, it
is the guy on the Apprentice, it is the notorious
you know New York real or you know real estate guy.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
It's the guy who's in the rap videos and in the.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Rap songs, and it's you know, the persona is so
much bigger than than is typical for the man. But
what I hear from people like you and other like
maybe Keith and other people that have spent a lot
of time with him, you know, there's a different component
of him that that draws out the loyalty and people.

(14:32):
Can you describe seeing that over the years that you
worked with him and people coming in and out, and
what that loyalty and the impact it had on the
organization he has.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
You know, it's interesting certain people, you know, appeal to
one demographic, but certain people appeal to all demographics. And
I would say that Trump is one of those people
that whether it's children, men, women, name the ethnicity, he's popular.

(15:06):
He likes to get out. You know, it's obviously different
now he's the president, but prior to all that, he
very much would enjoy going out and just being with
people walking down a street in Manhattan, going to a movie,
going to a restaurant. He would not want to be
in the back private room. He wanted to be out
with people. And I saw it over and over again.

(15:28):
You know again, you name the demographic people coming up
to him for autographs, for photographs, and he shook every hand,
stopped and spoke to everybody. I think one of the
things that people found remarkable about him because you know,
when I would introduce him to people, there was a
certain expectation going in that he was going to be

(15:52):
a certain way, and inevitably the same responses would come out.
He's amazingly focused. I felt he was really focused on me.
He's down to earth, he's easy to talk to. He
remembered my name. There was a certain sort of old
world charm about him, the kind of person that you know,

(16:14):
when you came into his office, he would rise to
shake your hand. The organization was a very different place,
but in some ways a lot of the old formalities
were observed. There, polite how people spoke to each other,
although at times things could get a little bit rough,
because you know, people were passionate about what they did

(16:35):
and tempers would flare. But there was always a high
level of respect, and you know, there were none of this.
It was a suit and tie every day. It was
a very different place to work, but it was also
a family and a very tightly knit group of people
that you know, if you got it. There were people

(16:58):
that would come in and you know, within a year
they'd begne But there was a lot of people that
stayed there for a very long time. I mean I
was in the organization for thirteen fourteen years and five
or six years prior, working very closely with it. There
was a lot of people that were there a lot
longer than me. There's a lot of people that were

(17:18):
there that are still there after I left, So it's
not really an uncommon thing. But some of the stuff
that I spoke about, and it wasn't just Trump, it
was his whole family, don Vanka, Eric, They were all
held in high regard and respected because they worked alongside everybody.
They weren't treated any differently. So it was a respect

(17:42):
that was earned by kind of being in the trenches
as opposed to being a part of the family. So
you know, again, you have children, I have children. You
can see a lot about a person by looking at
their kids, right, you know, your kids. In some ways
it's a humbling things to say, but they are a

(18:02):
reflection of who you are. Look at his kids, look
at his kids relative to others, and I think that
speaks volumes for you know, how they were raised.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, I don't see Eric his laptop getting out and
discovering what we've seen in other cases.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
Right, Yeah, it's just a different.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Difference, different breed. You know, there's a certain discipline that
I think that you don't see, you know in other
you know, first families. Let's just say, but they were
good people. They treated everybody well, you know, by extension
the way the father treated people, that's how the kids

(18:44):
treated people in the company. So again, you know, it
was really I really enjoyed working there. I'm never going
to say, hey, there's a highlight of my career. I'd
like to think, you know, you never know what's to
come on. But I really enjoyed working there. I'm still
very close with all of them. I still speak with
people in the organization all the time. I try to

(19:06):
do some work with them when I can. But it's
really it was a time in my life and my
career that I really reflect fondly on.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
What's up everybody? Sorry again for the interruption.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
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(19:44):
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(20:06):
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(20:26):
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(20:47):
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(21:08):
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in life. All right, enjoy who yuh? Going back on
in those spaces where you guys were really establishing a

(21:29):
whole new level of international leisure and hotels, I mean,
you really became a juggernaut in the industry. Was it
surprising to you that he would want to go into politics?
And when he had all that taking place, I think
that's one of the greatest When I see the debates

(21:52):
kind of all filtered down to the focal point, the
thing that always emerges is, why would this guy who
had the ultimate life, the ultimate business, he was loved
by everybody, why would he ever kind of pick aside
and choose to go into.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
This an interesting question, and you know, look, I'm not
going to attempt to answer for him, but I'll just
give you my thoughts and my views. You know, you're right, David,
he didn't need this. He had a very nice life
prior to what he got himself into. But you know, again,

(22:32):
from what I observed was a growing frustration with the
trajectory of the United States that maybe started the from
what I know anyway, I mean, I know there's some
older statements and interviews that he did, but what I
started to see started probably in twenty twelve. Should I run?

(22:55):
Should I do this? And there was kind of this
voice obviously in his head that you know, things aren't
going the way they should be. He very much had
this ethos, which I think you have and I have
that if people like us don't take action and try
to tackle some of these challenges, who's going to do it? Okay,

(23:17):
can't just sit back and say somebody else is going
to handle the problem. You know, you're confronted with a problem,
you have to do it. And I know you understand
that based on you know, you made the ultimate sacrifice.
But I think he was going through that same kind
of analysis. Twenty twelve came. He didn't do it. There

(23:38):
were some rumblings, and I think he regretted it, and
that voice got louder and louder and louder, and then
there would start to be you know, one of the
interesting things about how Trump makes decisions, I mean, ultimately
he makes his own decisions. He's been accused of not
listening to anybody, which is really the exact opposite sense

(24:00):
to everybody. Okay. The example that I always give if
we wanted to put a rug in a ballroom, he
would have five or six samples on his desk every
single person that came in the office. What do you think?
What do you think? What do you think? So he
started those types of questionings about should I run? Should
I run? Yeah, should I run for president? Should I

(24:22):
do this? I think initially he had some thoughts of
running for governor, maybe the mayor of New York. But
you know, if he was going to do it, why
not go to the biggest? Go big? So there was
a you know, twenty sixteen, I guess the voice just

(24:43):
you know became where he you know, he finally had
to concede to that voice in his head and he ran.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
And I remember was there backlash in the organization and
with the family.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
It was a lot of you know, it was a
family run business. I mean, although the footprint for the
organization is broad and global, you know, when you talk
about the higher level, it's a pretty small group of people.
You know, there was some concern about what what what's
this is going to open up? You know, the organization

(25:15):
was very much led by him, Okay, as much as
there were others. You know, his children were very well respected.
I mean, there was no clear you know, there's nothing
more clear than who ran the company, right, So there
was that kind of you know, where is this going
to go? But I think when everyone you know, I

(25:35):
remember he once asked me and I said, well, you know,
if you're going to run from behind your desk and
fifth Avenue. I don't know what's going to happen, but
and I really meant that. I said to him, if
you're going to get out and meet people, I think
you can win. Really you felt that, yeah, because there
was something, you know, there was once. You know, he

(25:59):
took a lot of and kind of giving his views
on things and trying to teach the people that he
worked with. And you know, there was one day where
we were working on a construction site and he he
just said to me, you know, I'm successful. People ask
me all the time why am I successful? And he said,
it's really easy. I just look, I look at what
people want and I give it to him.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
So he's also a voracious reader. I mean he reads everything.
And you know, if you think about the elegance and
the simplicity of that statement, I look at what people
want and I give it to them. You know. Again,
that's another paradigm for what he did in twenty sixteen. Right,

(26:40):
people got fed up of the politicians. I mean, even
you know, everybody from you know, it doesn't matter was
what side of the aisle you were. You know, even
people like myself who try to be you know, I
watched the news. People were getting fed up with what

(27:01):
was going on, and I say that that means both
sides of the aisle. And it was really refreshing to
have a business person like him, who is not a
Washington guy, come in and really bring a new approach
to how, you know, we ran our country because I
think you know, again, I don't I don't want to

(27:24):
get too political in this conversation, but I think everyone
would agree that DC was in need of something different.
We may disagree about what that solution does.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
That's fine and pretty definitive.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
I would say too, David. There's nothing wrong with political discourse.
There's nothing wrong with a wide variety of political opinions.
I mean, I'm still friends with many people that disagree,
but I think we all kind of had this feeling
that we need something different. And he answered that voice. Now,

(28:05):
whatever you think about him, and you know, again, I
don't see him through rose colored lenses. There are things that,
like anybody, he says and does that you know, we
may say and do differently. But I think what people
found very attractive is, you know what came from inside.
The motivation was pure right, Okay, the motivation was to

(28:30):
undo this damage and change the trajectory of I don't
care what anybody says. I can say this. As an immigrant,
I was raised with the ethos that the United States
is the envy of the world. Do we do it perfectly? No,
there's no such thing as perfection. But people from all

(28:51):
over the world still to this day, come here and
they find freedom and they enjoy a lifestyle that doesn't
exist for the overwhelming majority of people on this earth.
I mean, we can go on a show like this
and I can criticize the president and I can say
anything I want. Most countries, you can't do that. Now

(29:13):
you're going to and I think there are there are
a lot of people in this country that don't appreciate
that freedom. But something that my parents would say to
me envy of the world, almost on a daily basis,
the United States is the envy of the world. You're
lucky to be here. We would spend a lot of
time traveling seeing our family in the Middle East, you know,

(29:35):
even around Europe, and I felt that when I came home,
I said, I'm really happy that I'm home.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
Wow, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
So I think he went there he felt to kind
of rekindle that greatness of America because I you know,
again I don't want to be partisan, but I think
we can all agree that, you know, look at Reagan,
Let's say, for example, look at the greatness of America.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
We had fallen as a guy that at the time
was going all over the world apologizing, working with different people,
you could see that we had lost our luster, and
people will kind of take you aside and say, what's
going on.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Well, I think for me, I felt that just in
my service alone. Like I mean, I worked for Clinton,
I worked for George Bush Junior, and I worked for Obama,
and you know, the transition obviously pre nine to eleven.
I mean, you know, I think that the fiasco of

(30:36):
Somalia and Mogadishu, the fiasco of probably the Cobart Tower bombings,
and you know, just the the non strength that Clinton
was projecting was definitely felt in the organization in special operations.
And then obviously nine to eleven exploded. But then after

(30:57):
ten years and we're conducting of random drone strikes against
American citizens and you know, and their children. It's like, Okay,
where are we at now?

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Peace through strength?

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, but at what cost right, And I think what
we had done is we had exhausted that goodwill of
America as well too, and we had contorted it. And
that leans me back to this idea. All right, So
he makes this decision and goes in.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
What were some of the misconceptions.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Do you believe that that not only the organization, but
his team and his political team that they didn't expect
and what they faced.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
I don't think anybody ever expected the magnitude of hatred, Okay,
and I'm very specific to use that word, just hatred
that was thrown his way. Okay, I can tell you
you know. And again, and I'm speaking for my own

(32:01):
personal when someone went Obama was elected, I wasn't happy
that night. I woke up the next morning and I
said to myself, Okay, maybe something good will come out
of him. Maybe I'm wrong. This person is going to
be the next president of the United States. I will
support him, I will respect him, and I will hope
and pray that he is the best president ever. Why

(32:25):
Because then I'm an American and I want to support
my president succeeds the nation succeeds. He never was given
any of that. It was starting election night tear him down,
smear him, malign him with lies, malign his family with lies.

(32:47):
I mean, I don't have to go back much further
than Russia and all that nonsense, which has now been
completely completely to disproven, debunked. And I will add that
nobody been held accountable.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
For that, not one.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
I just released the show a little bit ago stating
this whole thing, like, all right, great, but where's the persecution, right?
Where when are we going to have some conviction? Just
give me one person, right, even if you you know,
even if you throw an indictment at James Camy, John Brennan,

(33:22):
whoever you want for even if it's not for the president,
it's at Mike Flynn or whatever capacity, the fives of
the guys.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Let's hope it's coming, David. And that's not you know,
people leave it label it as oh, it's a revenge.
It's not a revenge tour. It's justice. It's justice. It's
holding people who have broken the law, okay, broken the law,
holding them accountable. Okay. So it was really this whole
wave of hatred, and what's really hatred. Hatred is evil,

(33:56):
and I don't think anybody really expected, you know, and
again you weren't really dealing with a naive group of people.
But nobody really expected what the challenges that came at
him from day one. It was just an onslaught and
it really lasted. I mean, what else could they throw

(34:16):
at him? There will still go investigations and Pete's still
going on, impeachments, you know, assassination attempts. There's a real
there's just a sickness. But you know, I again being positive,
I think there are fringe elements, and they're on both sides.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
For sure.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
You have crazies on the right and you have crazies
on the left. But what I have seen and what
I find really encouraging is I think when you get
down to the nitty gritty and you scrape below, you know,
the politics on the surface, most people are actually you know,
and it's something that I talk about all the time.

(34:58):
They're the same, Yeah, okay, do we want we want
to be able to live in freedom. We want to
be able to have families, We want to support our families,
we want to be able to worship freely. We want
our children to have futures. You could say that about
a Democrat or Republican or anything. So I think the
good news is, although we're being fed otherwise, I don't

(35:22):
think that we are as divided as we're being told
we are. And I have a lot of optimism about
despite some of the craziness that's been hurled at DJT
over the first one hundred or so days, wherever we
are right now, I think when we get through some
of the really difficult challenges that we're dealing with right now,

(35:46):
we all know what they are. I do think that
you're going to see Trump actually uniting people because I
saw it in the organization. I saw it in his
leadership style. He isn't the person that he's painted out
to be, and he has an amazing ability of bringing

(36:08):
people together right And you can even see it now
what's going on internationally. You know. Again, I don't profess
to be an economic expert, and I don't want to
talk too much about tariffs. You know, for better or
for worse, they're bringing people to the table to have
discussions about, Okay, how can we level said, what's a

(36:32):
better way to move forward? You know again, maybe it
isn't the most elegant way, but sometimes you need a
disruptor to bring in change.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Well, I agree, couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
And I think what DC, what we're seeing and what
we have seen as a result of him being the
conduit for this hatred, you know, because he was he
was you couldn't buy him off. And I think that
was the thing that disrupted the blah or the deep
state or whatever you call it. So fundamentally we've seen

(37:03):
this now, you know, when you have you know, the
doge and exposing what USAID was actually spending money on
in fifty billion dollars and their annual budget, and we're
you know, the craziness that we're getting. You know, that's
going to disrupt a lot of people's bank accounts, and
that's going to disrupt the status quo in DC. You

(37:26):
have now since taking a break leaving the organization in seventeen,
was it?

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I left in twenty nineteen. I nineteen when he became president,
David I kind of transitioned. I was executive vice president
and counsel much more focused on the development side. I
became Chief Compliance Council EVP and chief compliance counsel globally,
so I dealt with a lot of the issues that
were initially hurled at him, Monument's issues and I spent

(37:54):
a fair amount of time going back and forth in
Washington dealing with various congressional questions and inquiries.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
What was that like?

Speaker 1 (38:03):
I mean, here you're going and you're doing deals, and
now of a sudden, you're you know, having I mean,
compliance within the government is a matrix in and of itself,
and now you are being thrust into dealing with people
that have potentially a nefarious political agenda.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
What was that try? You know, looking back, I certainly
was naive. It was not something that I had any
experience in. You know, again like my career pivot once
again pivoted. But I think it was you know, it
was an interesting opportunity. There was a need for it.
They had all been very good to me. I really

(38:43):
wasn't in a position to go and join the administration
for many reasons. So this was a way that I
could really help.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
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Speaker 2 (40:40):
So I took the challenge, you know, happily, but it
wasn't any you know. And I should also say I
had a very very good team of people. We had,
you know, people within the organization. We had a whole
field of people that were really expert in that subject.
So I certainly, you know, I was probably the smallest,
you know, cog on that wheel of trying to figure

(41:02):
all this stuff out. But it was interesting because there
weren't regulations or statutes or case law that we could
go to. This was the first time something like this
had ever really happened. Wow. So we had all these
people coming to us and you know, saying, you know,
the initial issue that we dealt with was this whole
issue of the emoluments and all some some people would say, well,

(41:26):
you have to sell everything, and then I would respond
by saying, well you think it's really that easy, you know,
when you sell a house put it on the market,
it may sit there for a year. You know, it's
like trying to sell a three hundred million dollar hotel.
And then, oh, by the way, you can't sell to
people connected with foreign governments, which puts out everybody in

(41:46):
the Middle East and India and the Asia. You know,
the people would normally buy these things. So it was
really difficult. But we endeavored to do the best we
can in an unscripted territory, and you know, I think
we did a very good job. But you know, to
answer your question again, no nobody expected the depth of

(42:09):
the hatred, the complexity of the challenge, and really the
you know, if I'm being sincere, I mean the insanity
that was hurled at us. I mean, you had half
a government or more that was trying to tear their
own president down in every way. And you know, people
talk about all of the deep state, whatever you want

(42:30):
to call it, but you have this whole class of
entrenched civil servants, ninety nine percent of them are extremely
far left, and I witnessed it over and over again
that they would take it upon themselves to try to
interfere with the will of the president. The man that

(42:51):
was elected lawfully, lawfully by its citizens. So that whole
spirit that we hope I think that makes us different
as Americans. Where somebody gets elected and you support them,
even if maybe it's not the person you chose, but
you support them for the add of the nations, You

(43:11):
respect the office for whatever reason. All that stuff went
out the window.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
And well, I mean, I think the clearest sensation is,
you know, there's there's a group of traditional Washington insiders,
those bureaucratic lifers, if you will, that understand the complexities
of the grift, and they've gotten really good. I mean

(43:38):
when you look at, you know, just the web of NGOs, right,
the seven thousand or so NGOs that are affiliated with
the State Department, USAID and some of these other organizations,
the Center for an Institute for Peace or you know
these things, it's like, wait a minute, what's going on?
How does this work? Well, they figure it out, and

(44:00):
it's that that cyclicaless.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Pool of money. That's right, it's the cess pool and
it's our money. That's the thing that's so disgusting, David,
is that you know, another thing that amazes me, whatever
you think about Alon Musk and all that, this was
a man that came from nothing, yes okay, and built
what he built and overcame so many We should be

(44:25):
so grateful to have people like that that are willing
to come forward and serve. But it just shows you
how sick, how sick these people are. And we could
talk about you know, I happen to think that there's
a lot of it is evil, although they throw that.
You know, that's another thing. These are people that say

(44:46):
they're just in challenging the president and doing everything they're
doing because we're taking on evil. You got to be
very they use the terms right, You've got to be
very careful, David, right when you use that word. But
having lived through what I live through, and believe me,
on the spectrum of people that encountered headaches, the headaches

(45:09):
that I encountered were very minor compared to others and
certainly compared to the family and him, nobody contemplated that
level of hatred.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
I heard at one point that his legal bills a
month were twenty thirty million plus.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Would not surprise me. And you know, aside from just
a mental train of being you know, questioned, investigated, challenged,
you know, here you are trying to run a nation
which still leads the world. I mean, we do have
a responsibility. I'm not going to suggest that America needs

(45:52):
to be the world's policemen, but we are leaders, and
we do have a responsibility, especially towards its weaker nations,
to lead, to protect, Okay, to provide support. So you
have all those challenges in addition to managing the domestic headache,
and you know, you have every person out there that

(46:16):
disagrees with you trying to undermine and destroy you. Not easy,
but it also shows you the strength. I mean, this
guy's a warrior, David sure, you know, this guy just
thrives on conflict. And you know that never give up ethos.
I mean, that's another thing that was really instilled in
all of us in the organization. You don't quit. You

(46:37):
don't quit under any circumstance. So that's something that I
very much try to instill in my own children and
then the people around us. We can fail, Okay, failure
is acceptable as a matter of fact. You measure, you know,
what a person is made of when they fail? You

(46:57):
see can they get up? Can they You know, we
all fail, But quitting, no way, It's just not an option. Well,
and I think that's something that you know, sometimes people
will say, what what what makes somebody successful? And I think, uh,
you know certainly that you know, I don't quit. That
mentality is you know, a primary primary driver of how

(47:23):
you're going to do in life.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Well, it's interesting where we we we kind of really
intensified our relationship was there was around that time where
you had decided like I'm done, I just want to
get away from it, I want to go, I want
my life back, I want all of that.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
And you know, we.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
We talked, we'd have these beautiful talks about you know,
the intensity of of of what that integrity looks like
being in the fight that never quit mindset. And those
are you know, some of my most fondest memories during
those very difficult times over the last four years, because
as as you and your colleagues watched a relentless pursuit

(48:06):
if you will, you know, I saw, you know, my
colleagues and the work that we've done essentially demoralized in
terms of the Afghan withdrawal, you know, the tempted conviction
of Eddie Gallagh or you know, all of this madness
that like, you know, in a different space and different
industry obviously, but it was there, and so the recognition

(48:30):
of that potential and what it grew into I think
is transformative and it really affected me, you know, I
you know, it got me back wanting to do this,
but to do it in a way that now I
can have these conversations when we can discuss these things
in a much more articulator or a sense not sensitive,

(48:52):
but or an intimate measure, right, a reflection of, Hey,
what are the challenges and what looking forward? Coming through
all of that transition. You know, you re engaged in
that never quit mindset and you launched Javelin Advisors.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
Can you talk a little.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Bit why you wanted to do that, knowing what the
landscape you had just kind of navigated for the prior
eight years and what you and your.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Team hope to accomplish moving forward.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Sure. Javelin Advisors is a government relations, consulting and lobbying firm.
We're based in Washington. The genesis behind it was really simple.
We had this favorable change politically and we saw it
a you know, obviously as an opportunity for us to

(49:47):
do something different for ourselves, for our families, but equally
or maybe more importantly, we saw it as an opportunity
to do some good. We know a lot of people
that are currently in government and we would like to
use those contacts to help to do some good. So
the you know, myself, my longtime friend Keith Schiller, and

(50:13):
also my longtime friend Rob Siden we all came together
and said, look, you know, let's see if we could
do some good here and none of us. I worked
with Keith for a long time in the Trump organization.
Keith started his career in the Navy. Then he spent
many years in law enforcement NYPD detective, then came on

(50:34):
board to the organization. He was head of security globally,
was also President Trump's personal bodyguard, and when President Trump
went to the Oval Office, Keith was director of Operations
for the Oval Office. Robert Sidon is another close friend,
longtime lawyer, legendary New York City prosecutor under the Great

(50:58):
Bob Morgenthaw. I think he spent fifty fifteen years in there,
never lost the case. He has his own specialty firm.
Their a litigation boutique shop, and he also has an
investigations firm globally. His firm actually did a lot of
the investigations for the organization when we were vetting partners.
So that's initially how I met Rob. So it was

(51:19):
a closely knit, tight group of people and we brought
in you know, we've a lot of other people that
work for us, but we're very focused. We're focused on
higher level West Wing Cabinet. We're currently doing some Farro work.
We have a number of different clients, but again the
focus is to try to do some good, try to

(51:41):
do some good for the United States, try to bring
some not so friendly governments closer to the United States.
Introduced the whole concept of economic diplomacy. Well, I shouldn't
really say introduce. It's something that's been out revitalized, reinforce
it that, you know, I'll even go so far as
to say this. You know, in the Middle East, there's

(52:03):
a lot of players there that over the past twenty
or thirty years, they may not love each other, but
they started to work together. They started to do business
with each other, one step at a time. Hey, I'm
doing business with this guy. He's on the other side
of the line. But he's got a wife like I do,

(52:24):
he's got kids like I do. He's got the same
sort of drives in life. So through that concept of
doing business, you start to get to know people and
you know, again, I can use the Middle East, I
can even use places like Northern Ireland where I've done
a lot of work. Different parties may not love each other,
there's still some distrust, but they're working together, there's peace,

(52:47):
they're moving in the right direction. So that was a
big part of the push for what we're doing by
trying to bring in these concepts of economic diplomacy to
try to do some good for the United States and
for our clients.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
I think that is a fascinating analysis.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
So often people throw out that term of lobbyists and
the negative connotations already infused into it regardless. Right, But
what people don't understand is that beneath the geopolitical aspect, right,
your army's this army where this we're going to. This

(53:27):
is how we're going to establish some type of interaction.
There's a million other avenues towards that, and the most
predominant an effective tool is through business. That's right, And
people don't understand that it's a.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
Very powerful tool. Business brings prosperity. When people can work,
they can feed and provide for their families. It's less
likely they're going to fight with each other, right, So
that's a big part of what we're doing. You know,
I can't get into minutia, but we are doing a
lot of work with Pakistan. Well, we are foreign agents,

(54:04):
we registered under Pharah, and you know, initially I'd be
disingenuous to admit that it wasn't something that we thought
about and you know, did a lot of kind of
internal discussion. But what we've found, we've confirmed. I mean,
they are very Pakistan has an interesting past, but the

(54:28):
current regime that we're working with, These are very smart,
well educated, pro West. They did what they had to
do under prior administrations that maybe didn't treat them so well.
But everything that we're seeing now is a willingness to

(54:48):
work with the United States on all levels, to trade
with us, to share information with us. You know, a
lot of what the administration and again I should say
very clearly that I am not part of the administration.
I was never part of the administration. I don't speak
on behalf of the administration. But a lot of the

(55:09):
efforts now are counter China. We've put ourselves in a
very vulnerable position, whether it's with medications or minerals where
we're dependent on a you know, I don't know if
you want to call them a hostile power, but a
foreign power for things that we need, and we're all
guilty of it.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
Data.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
I mean, you know, we paid a dollar for something that,
had we made here, would have cost us three. I mean,
this is thirty years.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Of exporting that that thing for cheaper labor.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
At the cost of our own national security and the
national security our own citizens. We're trying to pull it
all back.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
Well, that's fascinating to me.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
You know, you talked a little bit about you just
mentioned minerals, and for what most people don't understand is
how pivotal rare minerals are for the development of pretty
much almost every new technology that's out there.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Cell phones, watches, vehicles, of course, the defense sector. I mean,
you you name you know the item or the sector,
and you will find that minerals are needed. You know,
minerals are needed, Lithium is needed for batteries. Well, guess what.

(56:22):
Ninety five percent of our minerals are sourced from foreign adversaries,
mainly China and Russia. And what's even more maddening is
that the excavation that we're doing here in the United States.
For example, there's a rare earth facility in Mountain Pass, California.
We don't have refineries here, so anything that gets pulled

(56:44):
out of the ground is sent to China and then no.
So we've allowed ourselves over decades to become extremely vulnerable.
And this was actually something that Trump won the first
administration recognized as not just the supply chain issue, but
a matter of national security. And the tragedy of it

(57:06):
as well is that we have a lot of these
materials here in the United States. So there's a real
effort now to change some of the regulations that have
been holding up drilling to start to mine and refine
these minerals here in the United States. But in the interim,
you know it's going to it doesn't happen overnight. Now,

(57:26):
you know, it's a five to ten year process. We're
headed down the right trash. But we have countries again
like Pakistan that are coming to Again, these are not
countries that historically, you know, have been that aligned with
the United States, but now they're coming in to fill
these gaps, and you know, I see a real willingness

(57:48):
from Pakistan and a number of other nations to kind
of move away from where they've been with China and
become much more aligned with the.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
United States is fascinating.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
I'm you know, you always hope. I mean, people get
so caught up on the wavetops of what they're seeing
on a regular basis, and they don't understand the minutia
of the energy that drives the wavetop, and so it's
fascinating that you can come on and really illuminate that
a little bit more for people out there.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
And these are tremendous I mean, if you think about it,
you know, I think let's all be optimistic about the
whole situation now that's brewing between India and Pakistan, because
these are two great nations that have over two billion people,
that have tremendous resource, tremendous history. You know. I saw

(58:42):
the President make a comment coming off of Air Force
one that you know, look, we want to resolve this
by doing deals and getting everybody to work together instead
of with bullets. And I thought that was a great
love it, you know thing we have to stop, you know,
resist this urge to engage in kinetic warfare. I think

(59:05):
you can understand it's not you know, to me, you
go to war, is it necessary? Yes, when all else fails,
it's necessary. And we're very grateful that we have people
that are willing and able to do it, but it
represents a failure and really we should try to exhaust
every remedy before going that route. And I think this

(59:30):
whole concept of economic diplomacy, it's brilliant, it's a sound one,
and you know, let's exhaust that and a number of
other things before we send people's children, people's brothers, people's sisters,
people's sons, people's daughters, people's husbands and wives to face bullets.
And I think it's something that I have great admiration.

(59:52):
I mean, the President is strong, he's not going to
hesitate to defend us when necessary, but I think he
respects that it's a last resort.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
On that. Just tell the audience a little bit about
your book, And.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Yeah, I wrote a book, David. You know, it was published, yeah,
years ago, but really, the the the reasoning behind it. Again,
it was not something that I ever you know, I
never set out in my life to write a book.
But you know, I was having a conversation once in
the Oval office and he was very frustrated about you know,

(01:00:29):
people that had written books about me. And he made
a comment that you know people they sit with me
for an hour and they say that they're my biographer
and there my books. So I you know, said, look,
I'd like to write a book. And you know, I
got that stare for about thirty seconds, and he said,
go ahead and do it, and his credit the book
that you're holding, that's the version that he saw. There

(01:00:52):
was no interference. I had, you know, a lot of
help from my co author and a number of other
people that contribute it to the book. But it was
really an attempt to show the other side of him
through example, through stories. It's a compilation of stories. It's
very easy to read, very easy to digest. It doesn't

(01:01:15):
really delve too much into the politics, but it gives
you a slice of stories about what he was like,
what it was like to work in the organization, what
it was like to work in the family, how we
handle challenges, how we dealt with failure, how we dealt
with victories. So it kind of gives you an insight
into what he's like. And I've had people over the years, David,

(01:01:37):
because I you know, we went out and promoted it heavily,
and you know, we went on all the we did
all the media circuit. I spoke at probably fifty different venues.
I've had people come out to me and said, I
hated the guy, but I read your book and I
look at him a little different and it makes me
really happy. That's kind of what I tried to do.

(01:02:00):
So it was an attempt to really show the human
side of him that I know, and it was also
it was a fun, rewarding thing to do. I think
there's probably another book or two once you get through it,
you know. And again I really did have a lot
of help from my co author. But once you, once
you get through it, the drive to do it again.
So I have that little voice now in my head

(01:02:22):
that psyche, you gotta do a part two.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Well let's hope that part two comes after a very
successful another term.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
And thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
So I hope you enjoyed this With George Sorial, he's
an amazing human being, a great friend. Check him out
on LinkedIn. He's got sorry' all consulting if you're interested.
They deal a ton with business development, any type of
other type of real estate development. They're a wonderful consulting firm,

(01:02:53):
or if you're interested in check out Javelin Advisors.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Thank you, Thank you, David, my pleasure, my friend. I'm
almost happy to come and talk to you. Brother God,
pleasure you

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