48. Hall of Fame Exec Bill Polian on Draft Day Decisions, Cowboys Picks with Matt Mosely

On this episode of The Colin Cowherd Podcast, Colin explains why immediately handing out draft grades is ridiculous (1:00), and is joined by Pro Football Hall of Famer and former Bills and Colts GM Bill Polian. He gives his thoughts on draft grades (6:00), what red flags would make him take a prospect off the board (10:00), how the Packers should attempt to repair the Aaron Rodgers relationship (16:00), the obligation to keep ownership informed ahead of the draft (22:00), the importance of the GM and coach agreeing on a pick (25:00), if the value of playing at blue blood college programs is overrated (28:00), the anxiety of hoping the first round pick can play (30:00), and why some players are better in the pros than college (32:00).

Also, Dallas Columnist and co-host of The Doomsday Podcast, Matt Mosley stops by to break down the Cowboys draft, including their first round pick of Penn State linebacker Micah Parsons (39:00), why the NFL's relaxed rules on marijuana has changed the draft (45:00), if Jerry Jones is getting less involved in the draft process (48:00), and give his NFC East predictions (51:00).

Make sure you follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. The Colin Cowherd Podcast brought to you by
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Fan Duel. Well the love basketball, golf, soccer, or any
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Duel more ways to win. Hi, everybody, and welcome to

(00:31):
our Monday Morning slash Sunday Night podcast. So the draft
is officially done. I'm gonna go to Matt Mosley in Dallas,
longtime columnist written for the Dallas Morning News. Fox Sports
dot Com has the Doomday podcast. He's all over the
Dallas media. Well connected, funny guy, smart guy. Love having

(00:51):
him on Bill Polly in the Hall of Fame exec
He's going to be on as well. So about a
good hour. Strap yourself in. I don't give grades on
the draft, and my feeling on this has always been
I don't consider the draft in itself gradable. I'm wrong enough.
I think when something can be proven wrong over and

(01:13):
over and over and over again, then I stop believing
in it. If my Blazing five was wrong under fifty
percent every year, I'd stop doing it. But like fourteen
of the last fifteen years, it's been over five hundred
about fifty three to fifty six percent, So I keep
doing it. The grading system is mostly nonsense. What I do,

(01:33):
and I'll do this on Fox Sports One and Fox
Sports Radio, is that I'll take your top three free
agent moves and combine it with your top two or
three picks, and that gives you a much better hit rate.
Who really had a great draft, but trying to guess
your fourth, fifth, six, seventh round picks, nobody knows. I mean,

(01:54):
take New England, Yeah, I think Mac Jones. It's going
to take a couple of games against Josh Allen and
you're gonna realize you don't have a twenty twenty one
athlete at quarterback. So if he doesn't work, how good
of a draft is it? Same with Chicago Justin Fields
if he doesn't hit. I think he will. With Matt Naggie,
but if he doesn't, how can you give that draft
an A plus? Everybody's like Bears a plus. You don't know,

(02:16):
You won't know for two years. But one of the
reasons I don't do this is simply this. The NFL
replaces seven to eight coaches a year, so that means
if you get drafted today, within two years, you'll either
have a new head coach half the league will coordinator
or position coach. Because even if a head coach is

(02:37):
struggling after a couple of years, he'll fire a coordinator
before he gets the axe to give him another year.
So a lot of the people who draft this player
said player this year, within two years he has another coordinator,
another position coach, or a new head coach. That means
another scheme. Those guys are gonna want their own guys.

(02:57):
So you know a lot of this draft is players
that fit a coach's system. What happens in two years
when the system changes, you're not the same player. Even
if you're a star player like Aaron Rodgers, Matt Laflour
comes in and he's going to implement some of his
own stuff, just like it took Matt Ryan about a
year with Kyle Shanahan to get up and running. So

(03:19):
even for star players, you're going to have to adjust
to a new coaching staff. Forget marginal players, pretty good players,
kind of good players, or slightly below average players who
stick around. So giving a guy a grade, what does
it mean? It doesn't mean anything. If you're asking me
who had the best combination of free agency and top

(03:43):
two or three picks, Now I can boil it down.
My hit rate goes way up. Kansas City's not getting
viewed as a great draft, but they literally rebuilt their
offensive line with two elite players on the left side
well for Andy and Patrick Mahomes. That will have a
significantly greater impact than probably any drafted player over the weekend.

(04:09):
So if you take the rebuild of the offensive line
for the Chiefs and combine it with their first two
three picks, boom is a great offseason for Kansas City.
So let's bring in my friend Bill Polian GM of
the Bills, Panthers, Colts, Super Bowl champion Indie, six time
NFL executive year Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee about

(04:31):
five years ago, and somebody I've relied on for years,
almost strangely as a mentor, even though we don't see
each other in person, but I've taken his advice for years. Bill,
I want to start with this. I don't hand out
grades for the draft. I think it's ridiculous. And my
theory on that is, if we fire seven coaches a

(04:54):
year in the NFL, that means after two years, half
of these players will have a new head coach, ordinator
or position coach, a new playbook, news schemes, and those
guys may not like the current players. So but I
do think Bill, you can take the top three or
four free agent moves, combine it with a top two

(05:15):
or three picks, and give me a collection of, you know,
five or six real players who make you better. I
think I like, you know, Kansas City, for instance, Orlando Brown,
Joe Tuney and their first couple of picks. And I
know Andy Reid can coach, and I knew I know
Brett Veach is a great GM. So they don't get
a high draft grade. But between free agency and the

(05:37):
first couple of picks, I think they really improve their team.
How did you look at it? Did you look at
it holistically? How did you view an offseason? How did
you view the draft? I kind of viewed them as
standalon's because you prepare for them very differently. You know,

(05:57):
in the draft, you have access rights to individual players.
You don't have to compete with anybody for the players
unless they're collegiate free agents. So we kind of viewed
them differently. But I can see where you're coming from.
Give you an interesting statistic which relates to the point

(06:18):
that you made about grading drafts. For the last ten years,
I took every first round draft choice made in the league.
And you know we always say, Okay, we're drafting the
guy in the first round. We want them there for
ten years. You know how many of the thirty two

(06:39):
are left with the team they started with ten years ago?
Play zero eight eight. So to say it's an inexact
science as an under statement Number number two. The latest

(07:00):
statistic that I got from my Gettings, who I've used
for thirty five years, um and who is completely accurate.
Uh and and sort of a political if you will.
He has no agenda other than to provide information. Um.
Failure rate in the in the first round or I'm sorry,

(07:25):
success rate in the first round is now fifty eight percent.
It's coming up. It used to be fifty percent. So
first rounders are starting to make it at a at
a and helped the team that drafted him at a
higher rate than they used to. But they're not staying
with the team that drafted him. That that's really uh.

(07:46):
That that's the that's the that's the issue. And so
free agency now takes on a completely different viewpoint. So
when you look at it at a team that how
themselves in free agency and a number of places will
be expending a ton of money. But that's what free
agency's about. Is New England their their draft. You know,

(08:09):
we won't know if their draft was good or not
good for a couple of years and now maybe even
three years, maybe four because if Jones is the quarterback,
he won't be fully developed for at least three years. Um.
So the question then is you know what kind of
a team are they? Then that's the draft now, Um,

(08:31):
they're they're ready to fire hunt all cylinders. How you know,
it's interesting you didn't have a lot of whiffs. You
told me years ago you once took an offensive lineman.
I think it was an interior offensive lineman, and you
you knew in camp you probably missed on him. Um,
you know it's hard. It's I have four or five
guys who are GM's in the league. U I texted

(08:55):
over the weekend, and um, you know it's in exact
you don't know. One of the GMS I talked to
was not going to draft a player who's talented out
of Iowa and he went to an NFC team, and
he just said, you know, we're not there's a character
risk there, and we're not going to go how many players,

(09:19):
because there are some players that are red flag players.
If you really loved the guy's talent, what was your
how did you win? Bill Parcels if I recall, was
a guy that he he was going to clean a
locker room up, He wasn't gonna he didn't have a
lot of tolerance for you know, nonsense and character issues.
How did you view that? If you really had a player,

(09:41):
you loved him, and you thought, you know what, kids
make mistakes? I mean, how did you view that stuff? Well,
first and foremost we were exactly like Bill, because Coach Levy,
who taught me about the business, was exactly like you had,
and so was Tony Dungeon. So character was a disqualified

(10:02):
Bad character was a disqualifier for us. So then you
go to the next question, which you correctly pose, is
what makes up bad character? Well, everybody makes mistakes, and
so let's use the most obvious one. Marijuana use. If
it's a one or two time thing. Okay, if the

(10:24):
guy's been clean, awhile, and there's no issue, and we
hear from the school and others that there's no issue,
then we're okay. We didn't used to be okay. That's
changed as time has gone on. But if a player,
and I think I know the player you're talking about,
if a player is not a good teammate, if he's disruptive,

(10:49):
if he does not work hard, if he's not trustworthy,
if he's not a good citizen, if he's a person
who is on the wrong side of the law far
too often, then he's off the board, regardless of talent.
And I often tell the story when I speak to
scouts or others in the football community. My first year

(11:12):
with the Colts, mister Arsay had a good friend who
who was a you know, a really knowledgeable guy. He
followed the draft, so he came along with mister Arsay
to look at the board on Thursday. In those days,
the draft began Friday, I think, and were Saturday maybe,
and he looked at the d n D list on

(11:33):
the on the sideboard they said d NDC, which meant
through not draft character. And he said, holy Mackael, look
at there's there's a good team up there. What are
you guys doing? And Jim said to him, leave him alone.
They know what they're doing right, And then it turned
out most of the guys that were on that list
didn't do well. Yeah, a couple of years ago I

(11:55):
went to Tom Telesco and Dean Spanos, the GM and
the owner of the chart let me into their draft
room for draft day, and like that, they had a
you know, they had dots so like Red do not
draft medical, you know, you know, Green do not draft character.
And there was, you know, there was a really good

(12:16):
defensive end and the team could have used one, and
another very prominent coach who cares a little less than
most about character drafted him. And he's made no impact.
But you know, I asked to let's go, and he's like, listen,
it doesn't mean he's a bad human being, but we've
got a really good locker room, and you know that's

(12:38):
just somewhere we're not gonna go. And so I tend
to be you know, I've always had kind of this theory,
is that it doesn't take more than one or two
guys that are needy or outspoken to ruin a really
good locker room. And I remember years ago talk into

(13:00):
a baseball player, Jimmy Rawlins and the Phillies won the
World Series, and he said, the Phillies had built a
new locker room. Bill, and it was kind of circular,
and he goes, so you were kind of you were
kind of involved with everybody. It wasn't your rectangle locker room.
That guy's over in the corner. He goes, it had
no corners. And he goes, we had one guy who

(13:23):
was really difficult and he wore us out. Now he goes,
we had so much talent to overcome it. But if
you're on a plane with a guy, you know he
has a couple hits in him and he gets loud.
He goes, that stuff's combustible. It blows up locker rooms fast.
And you know, most guys would say, okay, let you
got fifty guys. They're good guys, and two guys who

(13:44):
were a little outspoken. But Bill, to your point, I
mean it. I'm sure you've got a dozen stories about
a really good locker room that got blown up. Oh yeah,
without a question, without what one guy can do it.
That's the specially true if he's coming in from another
culture where the stuff that he does is tolerated, and

(14:06):
in your place it isn't. I'll give you another story,
which is rather funny, and you talk about, you know,
general managers and coaches wanting talent. We're going through the
psychological review with our psychologist, who's an eminent sports psychologist.
She has any number of clients in all sports. And
so she put this player up on the screen and boy,

(14:28):
oh boy, the results were not good. And I said, Dana,
for goodness sake, we're only asking this guy to do
one thing. I mean, he's dynamited at what he does.
Is there any way you can rehab this guy? I mean,
is there any way he could make it? And she
looked at me and she said, Bill, this will end badly,
and she was one correct. The callin Coward Podcast proud

(14:56):
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(15:41):
we sent you FanDuel more ways to win, So what
do you do the Aaron Rodgers situation? And listen, And
this is not a shot at Aaron. He's gotten into
tips with his own family. Those are public. That's not
me reaching other parents. That stuff's made the news. So

(16:02):
now he's kind of a strange from the general manager.
He's been a strange from family members. I don't know Aaron,
but listen, it's not unfair to say he can be
a little prickly, you know, a little combative to certain people.
What do you do if the day of the draft
that story gets leaked to three prominent NFL reporters simultaneously.

(16:26):
It was clearly fed to them. What do you do, Bill?
Do you call him? Do you let it. Did you
just think cooler heads prevail after the weekend. What would
you do in that situation in Green Bay, Well, exactly
what Mark Murphy did. Number One issue of statement that says,
Aaron Rodgers is our quarterback and will be foreseeable future

(16:47):
and we're not trading him. So you put an end
to that nonsense, and then explain exactly what's been done
thus far that there have been a series of meetings
and ended by saying and there will be some meetings
in the future where we'll discuss things with Aaron and
we want them here, we want them to be part
of the packers, we want them to make the final

(17:09):
step to the super Bowl. So Mark did absolutely a
thousand percent the right thing. And then you let things
cool down, obviously, let the turn the temperature down, and
then at the appropriate time, maybe by the end of
this coming week, you sit down and say, let's let's

(17:30):
talk about this. Let's get together and talk about this
and see if we can't iron it out. Dialogue is
the best way to solve these problems. But you can't
dialogue in public, obviously. Yeah, it's I mean, listen, they
drafted a quarterback in the first round. Bill I mean,
the writing's kind of on the wall. Hell, they're going

(17:51):
to have conversations if Aaron stays after next year. They're
going to have these conversations, are they not? I mean,
I mean, I guess I kind of look at it
like this. Yeah, absolutely, these are These are uncomfortable conversations.
By the way. On the market, Aaron's thirty seven, two
collar bone surgeries, He's obviously a great talent. Um. What

(18:15):
is the value? I mean, you know, Denver's got a
lot of good players. I had a GM once tell me,
I don't want six draft picks. That's a young team.
He goes. I'd like, you know, for a great player,
great draft picks, but I wouldn't mind a starter either,
who's been around the league. For a player like Aaron,

(18:35):
what is the value on the market. Well, first of all,
let's assume let's talk in reality here, not Tom Brady longevity.
The reality is that Aaron parbatly plays at a high
level for three maybe four more years. So in terms
of price that you would pay for him, that's a
short term rental. That's not a guy that's going to

(18:57):
be there for ten years. Um. So the prices is
humeliorated by the fact that he's a short term rental. Um.
But the talking point with with him is, at least
if it were me doing it, and Murph's better at
it than I. Actually, um, he's a lot cooler than I.

(19:21):
But my approach would be, Look, we made a mistake
by not getting in touch with you and letting you
know that there was the possibility that we draft this guy,
and we need to back up and be it's something
we've done historically. It's not has nothing to do with you.

(19:42):
But we should have said that and didn't. So we apologize.
I suspect Murph has already said that. Um. So that's
how you that's how you get beyond what happened. What
happened was a mistake. It shouldn't have that U the
year that um uh, we signed Peyton to his last

(20:03):
contract in Indianapolis, before the injury and the release and
all that stuff got in the way. I said to
him at the time we were in negotiations, Look, this
year's draft, we got to start looking for your successor
just like Jim's got to start looking for my successor
neither not well, not not terribly well. I mean, he

(20:23):
was understanding. He understood where I was coming from. But
you know, he's the franchise, he built the stadium. Uh,
you know he doesn't like hearing that that that you know,
you're around looking for someone else. That's that's not a
you know, it's not a happy thing. But as you said,
you have to have those conversations. Now. The way the

(20:45):
way both sides handled them is another story entirely, but
the conversation needs to be had. I think the same
is true with Carson Wentz in Philadelphia. Had they had
that conversation, maybe things go a little bit differently, Bill
when I mean, it's obviously Jerry Jones always had a

(21:06):
little greater opinion of his draft knowledge perhaps than reality.
But he's not the only owner who thinks that. But
he's the most notable and most public in your years.
I would guess you would not have tolerated that, or
you would have moved on. But was there ever a moment?
I mean, these billionaires aren't dummies. That an owner did

(21:28):
say something to you pre draft, pre free agency, kind
of a macro opinion that you I mean, you know
these guys are from thirty thousand feet that an owner
said something to you you know, Bill, I'm not going
to get involved with your players, but just I want
you to consider this. Is that a real conversation that
ever happened to you and an owner with between you
and an owner? Yeah, absolutely, I'll tell you the story.

(21:50):
It's a great story. Again. The Thursday before the draft,
Jim comes in and out. Jim is, first of all,
Jim very knowledge been at GM, kind of the most
knowledgeable owner in terms of pure football, and he did
watch film and he knew what he was looking at,
and during the whole process he would stay hands off.

(22:11):
Occasionally he'd asked me a question about a player or two,
where you know, what's the story with the injury and
why is this guy? Why did he not play well?
But you know, he was going through the process on
his own. And so we get in the draft room
and we explained to him that we have a defensive
end from Colorado that we like very much, and we

(22:32):
have Dallas Clark, and the choice is going to be
between those two. And if we get there, you know,
tomorrow Tony and I are going to have to you know,
we still have to talk this out. So Tony says,
you know, I really like the defensive end, because they
can do this and this and this. And I said,
you know, I kind of leaned toward Dallas Clark because
I think he gives our offense a dimension that it

(22:54):
doesn't have. Now. He's at once and kind of a
every ten year type of tight end now, not unlike
the kid that went to Atlanta. Um so um. Jim says, well, okay,
you know, I trust you guys. I know you'll talk
it out and you'll make the right decision you always do.
I trust you completely. So he got up to leave

(23:15):
the room, and he turned around. He said, you know,
if it were me, I take Dallas Clark. And we
all broke up, and Tony said, well, I guess I
know we're taken now. But it was at least he
was honest with you. Of course he was. He always was. Yeah.

(23:36):
You know. The other thing that's interesting is every organization
has a star. I mean, Peyton Manning was the star
of the organization, um and and and they in every
star of the organization wield some influence. I mean in
San Francisco, John Lynch and Garoppolo are largely unproven. I

(23:56):
could argue Kyle Shanahan and is, but he kind of
feels like one of the stars in both of the
patent Kittle and I look at John Gruden and I
think that would be a tough general manager job. I
know John, I like John, but he's very emotional, tends
to fall in love with players. I like people who
fall in like with players. I didn't love their first
round pick. After that, you know, it seemed fine, but um,

(24:21):
you respected Tony Dungee a great deal. How I mean,
did you ever have any battles? You know, it's funny
the Raiders. I don't like their first round picks, but
I do think they've they've hit on some players. Where
is the line between listening to your coach, respecting your coach,
and having to push back? I mean, where is that line? Well,

(24:43):
when it's the head coach, ultimately you want him on board.
I was never concerned about assistant coaches, although there were
assistant coaches whose opinions I respected, and in the case
of more excuse me and Howard Mudd, I wouldn't make

(25:03):
a choice without their impermater. But you know, you evaluate
the evaluator, as George Allen used to say, But with
the head coach, you want him on board. And if
he's not on board, there's no point in making the choice.
Arrive at a consensus now. In my case and Tony's,
first of all, we saw a football through the same

(25:24):
set of eyes we were. We were exactly the same
in terms of our football philosophy, so there wasn't very
much difference of opinion at all. But where there was,
we would talk it out with the management group, which
consisted of about a half dozen people. We go through film, etc.

(25:48):
If we arrived at a situation where we were still
we were still a little bit um uh not in
complete agreement, then we just sit down and talk it out.
There was a choice between Drake Freeney and a big,
powered tackle, and the scouting staff were pretty much split.

(26:10):
And Tony and I the day before the draft were
on the treadmill side by side, and I said to him,
you know, we've got the power tackle who can fill
avoid the inside guy's important and we got d Drake Freeney.
And he said, Bill, you know, when it comes to
this choice, I'll take speed one hundred percent of the time.
So I said, okay, great, so will I We know,

(26:31):
hard choices. Those are the kind of discussions we had.
Reggie Wayne came from a situation where nobody could get
a consensus on a defensive back. We needed a corner
and we couldn't get any consensus, so we traded down,
and the best player available when we traded down was

(26:52):
Reggie Wayne. It was an unpopular choice. Everybody in our
building loved it. You know, there was a consensus, there
was a great player, and that's what it turned out
to be. A team like Cleveland, I think has done
a really good job supporting Baker Mayfield. I think their
offensive lines terrific. They went and spent money on a

(27:12):
right tackle, drafted a left tackle at Obama, Jedrick Wilson.
He's been very good. Their secondary was a little bit
of a mess in their linebacking corps. They addressed it
in free agency and the draft. My reservations about Cleveland
is they haven't been in a lot of big postseason games,
and that's really something. They also may have seven new
starters defensively, that's really something they could take a while

(27:35):
to get going. When you're a team like Cleveland and
you don't have a history in the last twenty years
of big game success, would that shade you toward considering
drafting players from a Clemson, Obama Ohio state played in
big games one big games, winning cultures or is that

(27:55):
just nonsense talking head stuff. There's some value too, but
I think it's overrated. I think it's overrated. And Andrew
Berry started with us, so I kind of know how
Andrews thinks. I think he's looking at the athlete in
the person much more than he is the program. I mean,

(28:18):
it's up to the coach to get them ready to
play in big games. And the only way you learn
how to play in big games is to do it
at the NFL level. By the way, until until just
a little while ago, Cleveland was all for nine on
first round draft choices. That was a long series of
missus there, which tells you why you know they haven't

(28:41):
been in the playoffs in a long time. But back
to your question about today's team. You can get the
defense going rather quickly. You got to simplify it a
little bit if you have new players until late until
they get acclimated to one another. But when when that happens,
and that's probably about mid season, they'll really start to

(29:02):
take off. They've got really good talent um offensively there,
they'll be better than ever because it'll be jail, we'll
be back healthy. And so you know, this is a
team that learned how to win a playoff game, the
opening round game against albeit a banged up Pittsburgh team.

(29:26):
Now they've got to learn how to how to take
the next step. So that's a process that takes a while.
That'll take two or three years before they're battled hardened
enough really to go all the way. I think any
team is like that. By the way, how often were
you surprised Bill after the draft in OTAs or camp

(29:47):
and went, Wow, he is better than we thought? Did
that app Did that happen regularly? Once in a while,
Once in a while. I've often said the worst day
of the general managers life in the NFL is the
first day after the draft, when you when minicamp, when
you go on the field and and the first round

(30:09):
draft choice comes out there and you're saying a prayer,
Please God, don't let him fall on his face, let
him look like an athlete. Sure, you only get one
choice to make, one chance to make a first impression,
and and and once once they do, of course, then
then everything flows freely from there. But occasionally you'll find

(30:31):
a player who outperforms his draft round early eh Antoine,
but Day was like that we really yeah. We drafted
him in the sixth round. I took the tape to
Tony just shows you how we how we collaborated. I said,
I got this guy here from Howard University who plays

(30:51):
three deep safety, doesn't do anything but that, but he's
a ballhawk, and he's savvy and he's tough. Um take
a look. I think he'd be a pretty good corner.
See what you think. And so he came back to
me a couple of days later with the tape and
he said, I see what you see. Let's let's start
him at safety and see how he does. He'll be

(31:11):
more comfortable there, and if we think he's good at corner,
we'll move him, you know, in his second year. I said, okay.
He said, where can we get this guy? I said,
I think we can get him in sixth So he
said okay. So by the time the fourth round came around,
Tony was saying, we think it's time to take Bethea.
I said, not, wait a while, we'll be all right.
So we finally got him in the sixth round. First

(31:35):
practice at Minicamp interception, second practice interception third practice, two interceptions,
Tony walked over to me and said, I think we'll
leave him at safety. And he's been there ever since
fourteen years, you know, occasionally. Yeah, the Chargers got a
receiver named Josh Palmer. I think it was like third round,

(31:56):
third pick, and Tennessee couldn't get attacked together at quarterback.
So I look at him and I think to myself,
he may be a better pro than a college player
because now he's got Herbert and they've got some real
weapons on that team. He's not a guy you're gonna
be able to double and and I just look at
him and I think because I watched him in college,

(32:18):
and I felt the same way with Calvin Johnson. He
didn't have a very good college quarterback, and I thought, God,
this guy's going to be unguardable in the pros. And
then he got Stafford. Was there ever a guy that
you looked Terrell Davis was a better NFL back than
he wasn't running back at Georgia. Did you ever have
one of those bill where you knew going in he
just didn't have a good coach in college, he didn't
have a good quarterback, he didn't have a good coordinator.

(32:39):
This kid's going to be a better pro. Well, I
don't know what it was about, you know, I don't
remember exactly what Miami's program was like. But Santana Moss
got all the publicity and the overwhelming majority of the balls,
and he was a pretty high choice if Harry call correct.

(33:00):
And Reggie Wayne was the afterthought. That's why he was
an unpopular choice when we made it in Indianapolis, because
he was he was nobody knew him, and and lo
and behold, uh you know he should make it to
the Hall of Fame fairly soon. So, um, you know,
it's it's just a matter of as you say, with Megatron,

(33:23):
the talent. You could see the talent when you scouted him.
That was obvious. When he got with a quarterback and
a good program, it came out. And the same was
true with Reggie. Finally, Bill, you got a podcast called
Inside Football with Bill Polian. You go you behind the

(33:44):
scene stuff. People don't get to see. What's the one
topic inside football that you think? Boy, if people only
knew how this really works, boy, that's a really good question. Um.
I think I think if they knew what the relationship

(34:04):
was between players and coaches and gms. They would be
very surprised how egalitarian and friendly and cooperative it is.
They'd really be surprised. It is not combative, it's not

(34:27):
buying large negative, it's not authoritarian. It's really a cooperative effort.
And and that never comes across. Do you miss the
long flight home, three hour flight home after a big

(34:47):
win and the buzz in the plane walking on the plane.
I think of that to myself and I think, God,
those you must have had some games out west, you know,
over time, win big game games with Peyton and you're
you're walking on that plane, pouring yourself a Heineken and thinking,
this is really as great a job as a guy

(35:08):
could have. Amen. And the only thing that's better than
that is the bus ride to the airport after a win.
We would make up silly songs to sing each week,
and the whole bus would be singing I love that
on the plane ride. Oh, Peyton was the Peyton was
the DJ, by the way he would pick and I

(35:30):
bet you would great talking to you, Abella Zola's always
take care, thank you. Before I get to Matt Mosley,
I was on Twitter this weekend and I saw something
that drives me crazy. We know, Hollywood's not the most

(35:51):
authentic place, but there was this couple fairly prominent that
broke up and it was one of these real Oh,
I'm so grateful to have been in this relationship. After
ten years, She'll be part of my life forever. He's amazing,
We'll be friends forever. And I thought to myself, Oh,

(36:14):
give me a break. Can just one time a Hollywood
couple break up and she goes to Twitter and says
he was kind of a dick and really self absorbed.
And then he goes to Twitter and says, my friends
hated her. Really, my parents didn't even like her. I mean,
I know I'm asking a lot for Hollywood, but just once,

(36:35):
could Hollywood people break up and not have to go
to like Deadline or Variety and give you this nonsense
about she's gonna be part of my life forever. You're
already dating your co star movie. Stop it. We all
know it's Hollywood. You've moved on anyway, all right? I

(37:01):
bring in my buddy Matt Mosley, longtime Dallas Cowboys columnist.
He's written for the Dallas Morning News, one of the
great American newspapers. You know, they're all hanging on by
a thread. But that's one of the good ones. ESPN
dot Com, Fox Sports dot Com, The Doomsday Podcast, The
Matt Mosley Show, ESPNN Dallas. I may hire him someday
for the volume, but we have a limited budget and
he's expensive as hell. So he's out there eating chicken

(37:22):
fried steak every Saturday night. I can't afford this guy.
He's rolling the big dough. So how are you well?
Doing fine? Good? Fine? And just you know, Day three
is when I really lock in on the draft. I mean,
that's when, don't we all? Yeah? Round seven that's when
I'm getting wound up. So I don't know, I don't

(37:44):
know if I'm you're like me, I'm I feel like
I'm coming off of something. You know, today I wanted
more picks and we didn't have any. So I spent
the day making calls, checking in with people, checking in
with gms across the league, and so I mean, I'm
excited to visit with you about some of this. So

(38:04):
let's start with this. I mean, the Cowboys, it was
no great secret they went out last year and got
Treyvon Diggs a really nice corner in the second round.
Nice player they wanted to pair JC Horn or Patrick
Sir Tan. That was kind of the understanding. They didn't
get them, so they had to kind of, you know,
on the fly wing it. They don't need a linebacker,
although injuries are with vanderesh are you know, a concern.

(38:27):
So they get Micah Parsons, which by the way, I
have no problem with because he's an athlete, and frankly
in their back seven, they just need more athletes. So
let's talk first about that pick. I didn't think it
was a buzzkill. I think they wanted a corner. I
don't think they looked and thought, we need a linebacker,
or do they based on you know, Layton's injuries. You know,

(38:48):
I thought it first it was disastrous to watch those
two quarterbacks come off the board. They obviously wanted one.
Everybody thought it was going their way because you got
the quarterbacks, you got all the offensive players being taken,
and then boom boom, Carolina doesn't work with you, Denver
doesn't work with you, and so they had to build
out of that next pick. So I thought their fallback

(39:08):
position kind of like you was okay. The only thing
I would say is, you know, they have to keep it.
They keep drafting the same position. I mean, vander Esh
is borderline like there might be tomorrow they might decide
not to even exercise his fifth year option. There. So
you're talking about Jaylei s Fith, You're talk about vander
You're talking about picks, premium picks that they're missing on.

(39:29):
And so some of these linebackers, and I know you
don't really like it when I go like fourth round picks.
But Jeb Burll Cox, the guy from Millau, they need,
they need him, and they need Micah Parsons to be
ready to start alongside Kean u'neil because next year Lvee,
the man that they call the wolf Hunter, will probably
be gone. Vanderesh and then Jayless Smith, a man who

(39:51):
celebrates every tackle. I mean it could be twenty yards downfield.
The man loves a good celebration. But they could be
gone next season. So I to me he's a good player. Okay.
I do find it funny that the other day at
their pre draft conference, they say, anybody who opts out

(40:13):
of the COVID year, which was this past season, we
see as a compromised candidate. We view them as compromised
if they opted out and didn't play, and then when
they got the chance, they grabbed Michael Partinson's a man
who opted out last season. Well, you know the way
I looked at their the pick is Mike is an
every down player, whereas jabrielle Cox is an incredibly dynamic athlete,

(40:38):
not much of a hitter, but he's a great guy
in space, which, by the way, that's the new NFL.
He may not be Matt, he may not be an
every down player, but he's a great athlete. And when
your defense is bad, you need to get rid of
the coordinator. They did, but you also just need athletes.
Last year Arizona went and got like Isaiah Simmons, and
because Arizona's defense, and people said, well what does he play?

(40:59):
And might takes you figure it out? Now at college, Matt,
college coaches aren't as good as NFL coaches. So I've
always liked my college coaches to recruit specific players corner slot.
But in the NFL, there are no mid terms. You're
not in a dorm. I know, give me the athlete.
I got thirty forty hours a week to practice. I'll

(41:21):
get you figured out where I'm going to put you.
So to me, Micah Parsons. I just want him on
the field. He's just too damn good not to be
on the field somewhere. He's great. My only thing is
they keep missing on this position, so that's why they
had to go back to it. I think he'll be
really good. I think his athleticism is crazy. He's off
ball linebacker who's gonna go sideline and sideline. It's what

(41:42):
they hope bander Esch was. It's kind of what they
hope Jalen Smith was. And so they've got that taken
care of. What I'm not convinced of. And if you're
gonna give grades to some people I love all the fighting,
why don't we give grades because we like to talk
about things because it's sport my idiots, Okay, But I
mean I don't want to if people come up from
the Mountain White, well, you can't give grades. Of course

(42:04):
we can. And I would say the the part where
that gives me the most worry about the Cowboys, Colin
is they didn't I don't know if they found a
starting cornerback. I'm not I'm not convinced that Kelvin Joseph
their second round pick. I'm just saying they went back
to old school Jerry Jones. Yeah, well, okay, yes, issues, Colin.

(42:29):
If you get if you're a great player and you
have great instincts and you're a hitter and you're like
this Kelvin Joseph Is and they can't keep you at LSU,
what does that tell you? I mean, that's that's like major,
major red flag. I mean they the honey Badger came
back and made his career. You know, he basically got

(42:50):
kicked out of there. I'm just saying, when when la,
if you get kicked out of LSU or whatever happened
to him, he decides to leave it, go to Kentucky.
There are made your red flax. So what I'm saying
is what would give me the most worry about the
Cowboys draft other than a third round. They started apparently
reaching like crazy, and we can talk about that a
little bit, but I don't know that they got a

(43:12):
starting cornerback and everybody else just has I mean everybody
else around here. It's like they got Kelvin Joseph Jerseys.
It's like, Okay, he's opposite of Digs. Now, we'll put
the six four kid in there with him. He'll play
like the slaught or something, and it's it's allegian to
boom again. And that's that's that. This is Dallas. This
is the Quintessidential. Cowboys draft a lot of flash and dash,

(43:34):
but to me, a lot of worry. You know what
I saw Matt with it a lot of length. They
drafted the kid out of Oregon State, the corners six
three and a half. I saw their defensive lineman a
lot of length. So that's when I looked at Dallas
dan Quinn from Seattle. That's very much a Pete Carroll thing.

(43:55):
Get me long athletes, Richard Sherman, long corners. Pete loves
that long defensive ends and the and the takeaway is like,
if you're an interior defensive lineman and you have a
longer reach, you you may not You may just be
able to put your arm out pull a ball out
that Pete loves that length. I've talked to nbagms. I

(44:16):
had an NBA GM tell me years ago, Mark Warkentine
on Scottie Pippen. He said, one of the things we
loved about Scottie Pippen is his length. And you say,
what does it mean? He goes if he created two turnovers,
a game and gave Michael Jordan two more shots. Michael
makes one. You get to playoff games. You win a
lot of games by a basket. He goes. We had
that Chicago Bulls team was the longest team ever created,

(44:38):
and it just gave Michael six possessions a game you
wouldn't normally get. So I look at the Cowboys draft
and I think, I don't know what they got. There's
some red flags, guys, but it's length and it's athleticism.
Can we can we say that it's a long athletic class.
I love it. I'm a big wingspan guy as well.
I'm saying, do you know a lot of great six

(44:59):
four quarters around the this league? Can we point back? Like,
I mean, there's there aren't any there. The great ones
are like six foot two hundred or six foot one
two hundred. Now that is the size of Kelvin Joseph.
I'm just telling you, and I can't make this point
enough with you. I mean, as I talk to people
around the league, it's like I would say this, Okay,

(45:21):
here's how I'll explain this without saying too much. The
relaxed rules on weed in this in the NFL has
changed the way people draft. Okay, I mean, I do
think that has happened, and I think we saw that
maybe in the second round some guys you would have
let rule on down the board. You're like, you know what,

(45:42):
they got a few strikes, They got several strikes before there.
It's not like Gordon, Josh Gordon takes one puff and
they're like, you're out of here forever. We don't want
to see you again. Go to Canada and play. I mean,
I I think I think that has changed from things.
But I'm just saying between these two corners, I'm not
convinced they have a starter. Now. All the link stuff,

(46:03):
you're right, You're right, the Goldston kemmy, there's some interesting
players it. Yes, it just gives me pause when the
people that do this even more than we do. You
and I love to look at film, We crunch the
numbers all of that, but even people, you know, they
they looked at these guys and they're like, whoa, whoa
the third round. We had him in the we had
him in the six or seven. So I would say this,

(46:25):
and I've heard this from more than one GM. The
kid they took it in the third round, Naean, Right,
the Yeah, the quarterback, Like you like his reach because
he's sixty four, he's one of the biggest reaches in
Cowboys history as far as where they took him. I
mean literally literally, people are like across the league are

(46:49):
sending me what I mean, you know, all the exclamation marks,
all the question marks. So maybe he'll be great, But
I think sometimes you can get two into this dan
Quinn or Pete or whatever. You know, all these people,
you can get so far into body types if you're like,
are they gonna get burned? Are they gonna fall in

(47:09):
the double move? What's gonna happen to them? So you know,
Earl Thomas was not that tall. He was not. I mean,
he was a great player, you know, he wasn't one
of those huge, lengthy guys. That's the guy everybody around
here has wanted for like the last five years. I
don't see any Earl Thomas's in this draft. They just
brought in what I mean, listen, I love. One of

(47:31):
the reasons I like you is so many people that
do local sports or Homer's and you're not. That's why
I love you. You do your homework. Jerry's involvement on
this I do think he's sort of handed it over.
I said before the draft, I said, Dallas is going
to have to go against its nature. Go be boring.
Get a guard, two interior defensive lineman, a slot corner,

(47:52):
a safety. Dallas is not good at boring. I'm like,
go be boring. I don't want to see any running backs.
I don't want to see any receivers. I don't want
to see any flashy edge. Just get boring. What you're
saying is you're not sure if they got competent. But
what is Jerry's involvement in your opinion? If I said
one to ten, ten, he's locked in one. He's got

(48:14):
a tumbler and he's just watching, having fun and making
sure he talks on TV. Where's he at? Well, when
the pick is made, it rises up there to about
an eight or nine. Okay, he's ready to he's ready
to get involved. And what he loves to listen and
he loves to repeat things that he's here. I hear words.
I've been around Jerry for so long that I can
hear him say a sentence and go that came from parcels.

(48:37):
I know what came even for like Chan Gailey back
in the day as a little bit before my time,
but I can I know where all this stuff comes from.
So when the pick is made, it's kind of like
when the parades coming by, Jerry wants to be up
at the front. Now all the gathering, the Will McClay,
Stephen and Jerry kind of show up, They listen, they
get involved, they're on all the interviews. They really are

(48:59):
one thing Jerry he does. He loves those interviews. And
like like that six round pick they got for South
Carolina that started crying a bunch. I don't know if
you've seen that one. I mean that one's like whoa.
I mean that will blow you away. I mean that
kid may get a ten year contract just because of
that that performance. Jerry loves that stuff. Okay, he loves drama.

(49:21):
So to answer that, I would just say in the
weeks leading up to it, about a five or six
likes to be on the interviews, loves to hear the things.
And I would say both those cornerbacks they were very,
very comfortable taking. They were just so ready for horn.
But they did. That's the thing about the strap. They
didn't get. They didn't get like great character people or

(49:42):
they had they had it I'll say this later in
the draft. They did Okay, I don't want to indict everybody,
but they got still in the fourth round. They're picking
guys like domestic violence incidents. I mean, this is a
this is a team that went from Jason Garrett boy scout.
So all the all I'm saying is this, here's where
Jerry comes in and gets to it like a nine

(50:02):
or a ten. Is when there is a redemption story,
that's that's gets his attention. Okay, I mean it's just like, yeah,
oh wait, this guy has some checkered past because Jerry,
Jerry loves all that stuff. Oh, this guy has some
some stuff on his record and all that kind of stuff.
So I would say, Jerry down the stretch when they're

(50:24):
getting ready to make a pick, he's way way involved. Well,
I mean, listen, we know two things will make the
Cowboys defense better. Number One, Dak Prescott. They were twenty
eighth last year in time of possession, so the defense
was on the damn field all the time. So with Dak,
they're going to be a better time of possession team.
He's also going to have an OTA in a camp
with McCarthy. Secondly, Dan Quinns a lot better than Mike Nolan,

(50:47):
So I mean the defense will be better, and I
do think they got athletic. But I think all your
points are well served. I you know, this morning of
Philadelphia's last place, I think Nick Sirianni's laughable as a
higher he he is, marginally, I'm not sure he's a
coordinator in the NFL. Philadelphia's last, worst quarterback, arguably worst coach,

(51:07):
and a meddling owner and a GM that's missed a lot,
So put them in last. I think the Giants. I
think Washington has the best defense, and I think the
Giants and Dallas have very good offensive personnel. If I
said this morning to you, Matt, give me the rundown
of the division, I'd go Washington first, Philly last, and
then I think the Giants and the Cowboys battled for

(51:29):
a wild card spot. Potentially your thoughts, well, I think
you're I don't know, this guy is a weirdo. It
seems like when I see him talk the new coach
the Eagles. So I kind of agree with you there.
The quarterback thing. I probably and maybe it's because I've
watched so much Big twelve, and I think that guy

(51:50):
is a huge winner. Like he's a guy that likes
to carry people, and suddenly he has a weapon, is
a big time weapon with him that he knows a
little bit. So I would say the Eagles, I have
a little higher than you do. I might even sneak
the Eagles up into the two spot. I really would.
And the Giants. Here's the thing. I don't like the
Giants quarterback. They're stuck with this guy seemingly forever, and

(52:13):
and he and everybody's like a Danny Dimes or whatever. Yeah,
this is a weird. I mean, I don't think I
think he's third. I think the Giants or third, and
maybe now Redskins third and the Giants four. Now who
does that leave, Oh, my goodness, the Dallas Cowboys. And
what it leaves us with is a rough another rough division,

(52:34):
another division. Now what the Cowboys are hoping, you know,
every year it's if nobody gets hurt, we could have
we could have greatness. And then of course all the
offensive linemen get hurt and everything goes to hell. I
would just say they got faster, they got some speed.
But I'm telling you, Colin, I've been I've looked at

(52:56):
these things before. When you are counting on third round
in fourth round players being starters right away. It works
for some franchises, it doesn't always work for these guys.
And that's what they were trying to do. I mean
they're they're literally needing and you know what they're telling you,
what Stephen and Jerry are telling you, is we don't
have the money. We just signed this quarterback. And you

(53:17):
do a great job of talking about contract stuff. You
understand all that they just put a huge amount of
money in one position. And what they said leading into
this draft almost like an NBA team or something. We
gotta hit on all of these guys, and this is
the future of our defense. So who do they have, Like,
who's their big stunt on defense? Thank Lawrence, and then

(53:39):
name me another one. You gotta have it be Parsons.
Suddenly you need your number twelve overall pick to be
your second best defensive player. Who's the leader? Vander Ess
can't stay healthy, Jayle Smith is just kind of he's
not very good. Who is your leader other than you
got Thank Lawrence? You got everybody kind of either retiring
or heading out this or rook So this is and

(54:01):
you've said it before, this is a team that needs
to go out and score thirty five and forty points
a game. Yeah, well, I mean I think Dak this
morning is the best quarterback. If Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jalen Hurts,
and Danny Dimes are it. The good news is you've
got a super Bowl winning coach, you have the best
arguably best skill people in the division. You got the

(54:23):
best quarterback. I mean, you know, I wouldn't have paid
Dak forty million, but in the end, I think he's
the best, most reliable quarterback. Your time of possession goes up.
I think Dallas is Washington defensively, Dallas offensively. You're gonna
battle to the end for a playoff spot. I mean,
you're gonna have some automatic wins. I looked at Dallas
is the teams that are playing next year. It's not

(54:45):
that formidable. I guess, listen, somebody always wins a bad division.
The good news today is Dallas has absolutely got more
than a puncher's chance to win the worst division in football.
That's what it feels like to me. I guess, yeah,
maybe I'm mister Optimism. They call me mister Optimism around function.
Oh that's my nicknames, Mister Optimism. I just like, by

(55:09):
the way, how are you. I like this format. I
like just be able to talk to you for a
little while. I feel like I'm letting too much sun
come in. Oh. Ed Werder and I have like a
green screen and stuff behind us, but we still we
still had us. We still haven't figured out like how
to use it. We still just do it audio only.
But boy, I like I like being able to see you.
I like what we're doing here, and I like the
fact you're not trying to well. Your TV people are

(55:31):
always like, we got a hard break, stop talking. This
is nice. This is the podcast world is very nice.
I like this. Yeah. People people ask me, Matt, they
say why are you doing a podcast? Yeah? And I
always say this people, oh, you're trying to sell it,
and I think, I like, no, no, no. The bottom
line here, everything I do in my life I have
to fit into a box. I can pour a cocktail,

(55:53):
I can shoot the ship, I can talk with you.
If I drop an fbomb, nobody gets fired. We could
go an hour and a half. The bottom line is,
this is the future of broadcasting what we're doing. So
it's like to me, once that pandemic hit, I was
like Wow. I don't want to be boxed in as much.
So I love the companies I work at, but this

(56:14):
is just a third company where I own it and
I can It's much more relaxed, yes, and I think
you get you get better answers from people when they're relaxed.
So I got to get out of here. Bill Polian
and you were great guests today. I'm gonna call you tomorrow.
I have to go to the hospital and get blood
work because you've gotten a bike rack and I had

(56:34):
a damn blood clot, so shit Breakshyn't you hit my age?
You know well, and I'm much younger obviously, but I had.
I had a bad bike accident in the Fox family
and you were there for me. So I appreciate that.
And now I'm like, I've weaned myself six months after surgery.
I'm now weaning myself off the pain meds, which I

(56:56):
think I'm better on pain meds. I'm better on TV,
but I'm getting off the pain med So it's good.
It's good. You look great. We'll talk soon, Matt. Thank
you so much, buddy, thank you for having me. I
appreciate it. All right, folks, you know the drill at
the volume sports on Twitter and Instagram, rate review, subscribe.

(57:17):
Wasn't that fun? Wasn't that fun? Damn right, it was.
Enjoy the volume.