First, (3:00) Colin gives his review for the ‘Air’, detailing the story of the Nike’s pursuit of Michael Jordan which led to the groundbreaking Air Jordan campaign.
Then, longtime Bulls writer - and author of The Jordan Rules - Sam Smith joins Colin to discuss criticism he received after releasing The Jordan Rules, how The Last Dance has only enhanced Jordan’s legacy, why Jordan has been largely out of the public spotlight in retirement, why he didn’t succeed as an NBA owner, the G.O.A.T debate, and what Sam doesn’t like about the modern NBA style of play.
Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates, and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action! #Herd #Volume
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Episode Transcript
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(01:52):
Welcome in to a Wednesday morning podcast. Every year, I
interview Sam Smith, who in nineteen ninety one wrote the
New York Times best seller of The Jordan Rules, which
sort of defined the first real public criticism of Michael
Jordan and the pushback he received. But Sam has a
(02:12):
lot of depth and knowledge on MJ and a lot
of positive things to say, so I think you'll really
like the interview. There's a lot of things he brought
up that I had not thought about, and I want
to talk for about five minutes about the movie The
Air movie on Jordan and Sonny Vacaro. So I saw
(02:34):
at the Other night, Monday night premier in LA at
the Design Center in West Hollywood. And so years and
years ago, my first recollection of Sonny Vacaro, I covered
U and LV out of college thirty years ago, over
thirty years ago, and Vacaro hung around the program because
you know, at that time, you and LV was on
a shortlist of the most captivating programs in the country.
(02:57):
And you'd see Sonny Vacaro around the program. And to
be honest with you, you know, Tark always had that
kind of just you know, little shadiness. You know. Tark
was given by un l V about forty tickets per
home game, and Tark could give those out to whoever
he wanted. It was very unique. Even the top coaches
in college basketball at that time, Dean Smith, Nolan Richardson
(03:19):
at Arkansas maybe got four or five tickets per home game.
Tark had like forty forty five. So there were always
people hanging around practice that you know, we're a little
a little shady, you know. And I'd see Sonny of
Acaro around and I didn't know what to make of him.
He was always a very nice guy. But anybody that
(03:40):
hung around Tark, you know, I was a journalist, there
was some controversial players I was always a little suspicious of.
But you could tell very early on he had such
an affection for players. The players loved him. He loved
the players. And then I started asking around about Sonny Vaccaro,
and you found that he was a really brilliant basketball
mind with his heart in the right place. He thought,
(04:01):
he thought players deserve something for all their time and effort.
And Sonny Pacaro was a really important figure in the
NCAA's history on reforming college sports. But Vicaro plays a
key role in this movie because as Nike was mostly
a jogging company, because that's what Phil Knight did. And
(04:24):
Phil Knight, you know in the movie, is you know,
not wearing socks, you know, often wandering intellectually. He had
spent a lot of time in Asia, and Phil was
always a unique had kind of an Eastern not Western perspective,
an Eastern perspective on a psychology and philosophy and business.
(04:46):
Makes him a fascinating guy, Phil Knight, And you know,
Vacaro was just a tough, minded, gruff little Chubby was
never going to jog. They were very different people, but
in the movie, I think it gives you a sense
of how Phil respected Sonny Vacaro and how Sonny Vacaro
appreciated the courage of a Phil Knight. I think it's
(05:10):
I really thought it was an excellent movie. I'm no
film critic, but the audience erupted in applause multiple times.
And my takeaway on it, I love the relationship between
Sonny Vacaro, who's finally sort of getting the affirmation in
the validation he deserves. Phil's gotten plenty of it. And
also for Michael Jordan's mother, And a real big takeaway
(05:32):
I had in this movie is that Michael's mother, still living,
is a no nonsense woman growing up in the South,
very protective of her son and very demanding of others
respecting her son. And she comes off as incredibly likable
in the movie and powerful. And I really think you
(05:55):
win as an audience watching this movie. You have great
respect for Michael's parents, for Sonny Vicarro, and those people
have not been given the credit and the Michael Jordan's story,
at least outwardly that they probably deserve. So I highly
recommend watching it. For me, it was so personal because
(06:15):
I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and spent six
seven years in Portland. I loved all the drone shots
to the Nike campus and the Steve Prefontaine images and
you know the bridges, you see cars, you know, driving over.
It was really for me. It really worked as a movie,
but I think it gives credit to people who probably
haven't been given those accolades previously in Michael Jordan's legendary career.
(06:40):
You know. I also thought there was a very clever
touch by Ben Affleck is that you never really see
Michael Jordan in the movie. You hear his voice, you
see him from the back, and that's interesting metaphorically because
Michael is a really, really private guy, and without Michael
having a big role in the movie, it allows you
(07:01):
to concentrate more on key figures like his mother and
Sonny Vicaro and Phil Knight. So it gets multiple thumbs
up from me. Very touching, very genuine, and credit to
people who have deserved more through the years. In Michael's
amazing basketball journey with the NFL season, over all eyes
(07:25):
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Download game Time today last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. Well,
I did watch the movie The Air movie about the
early version of Nike Sonny Vacaro and Michael Jordan, and
Michael's mom plays a key figure in this movie. She's
(08:31):
really the star of the movie. And I thought as
I watched the movie, I've been very critical of Michael
through the years, saying that Nike's Air Jordan commercials the
greatest domestic ad campaign of my life, and it has
created almost a reaganlike shield a Teflon shield around Michael,
(08:52):
when if you simply acknowledge previous failings, you're considered a hater. Well,
Sam Smith, who, Well, it's the original critic of Michael,
the only one. Back in nineteen ninety one, The Jordan Rules,
a magnificent book on the turbulent season with Michael Jordan
and the Bulls New York Times bestseller. It was the
talk of the literary sports world for several years. He
(09:15):
got a Lifetime Achievement Award, Pro Basketball Writers Association, Kurt
Goudy Media Award Hall of Fame currently writes for Bulls
dot Com. And whenever I'm critical of Jordan, as I
watched that movie, I always get major pushback. And I've
said this before that you know Michael would punch a
player and they would say, well, he's just very competitive.
(09:35):
Draymond Green punches a guy, should be thrown out of
the league. And I think, you know, it's part of
that smile and charisma. When you released the book, you
obviously knew you were Michael was wildly popular. Did you
expect the avalanche criticism? Did you know it was coming? Cole?
Let me say first, if Michael punched somebody and his
knuckles were bruised. That was on the other guy, and
(09:58):
I think that's what you mention now. I was, you know,
probably talked about that, and I'm frankly pleased that you're
still on the air being critical of Jordan. Um. You
know there's a thought police about that these days. Yeah.
I was probably pretty naive about it, being a reporter,
(10:19):
having been an investigative reporter over the years, I figured, well,
if I just write what's true, you know, what's the
problem with that? And so it was. It was an
incredible you know, it was over thirty years ago. And
you know, one thing I was kind of pleased about
and pleased about a lot of things, you know, with
the Last Dance documentary, but one is that Michael sort
(10:41):
of cop to all this finally took thirty years, but
he said, yeah, yeah, I could be a jerk, but
you know what a reason for it. And so back
then it was saying, yeah, you know, the guy's tough
to live with and people because of as you refer
to those commercials, he was really i mean marketed as
kind of you know, the cliche all American kai. I
(11:03):
remember one of the the Coca Cola sponsors. He he
like leaped up into a treehouse to deliver the Coca
Cola and he I mean, and they made a point
of this. They were doing, you know, Chevrolet apple Pie.
They were doing those controversials to make it as American
as you know, patriotic and could be. And then so
(11:24):
you know, I sort of write a book about behind
the scenes in basketball. He said, well, this is not
Michael Jordan. I saw him in the commercials. He's nothing
like that, right. You know. It's not that I'll defend him,
but I was talking about this with somebody the other day.
A lot of us resent or regret what we did
in our twenties, but we did it for a reason.
We were immature. I mean, I grew up divorced kid
(11:47):
on my own, not a lot of money in the family,
and I was a pretty relentless workaholic in my twenties
and that's what I thought I needed and was mature
enough to handle it that time. And I look at
Michael and I said, people say, oh, he was rough
on teammates, but the Pistons were tackling him. The Celtics
were doing about the same. The East was loaded and
(12:07):
physical and it was all allowed by the league, and
I say to myself, relentless was the only way for
Michael to get through it. He was being attacked defensively,
and could I argue that we do things out throughout
the course of our life because it gets us to
a better place. And the East was bullyball, Nicks, Celtics, Pistons,
(12:27):
and Michael was the target for almost all of it.
And he was just he was building up a medal
and a toughness in that Chicago bull team. That was necessary.
I mean, that's exactly right, because you know what gets
overlooked because it Michael Jordan came into the NBA out
(12:48):
of the eighty four Olympics game winning shot in North Carolina.
You know, with such fanfare to dunking in the Sports
Illustrated covers and all that. The notion was, well, he's
gone to see right away. But at the same time, simultaneously,
what Jerry Krous is doing with the Bulls is it's
rebuilding basically. You know, it has Jordan out front, but
(13:09):
he's basically they had a lot of high draft picks,
so decent players on Land to Woolrich and Sydney Green
and players who could have developed or did develop in
other places, and he traded all of them off essentially
for draft picks. Draft picks. You know, they got Pipping
and they got hors Grant and he was sort of
(13:30):
it wasn't called that then, you know, because teams didn't
really dump to the draft back then because they have
infectly needed the tendance. And really Jordan should have been
with the Pacers. One of the great overlooked stories is
the reason Portland had the Pick was the Pacers had
lost James Edwards and for attendance needed a center, so
they traded to Pick to Portland, and that's how Portland
(13:52):
ended up. You know, I'm using for Sambooie and all.
But anyway, so Jordan comes in and the notion as well,
he's his great figure. He's got to compete again Bird
Magic Isaiah and they've got Bill Teems and he's looking around,
but when his roster and goes, well, you know, I've
got I don't what have I got here? I got
Kyle Macy and I he's you know, and so you
(14:14):
know that was sort of a joke about. You know,
they said, well Jordan couldn't make guys better, and he
used to say well, yeah, if I had James Worthy
and Kareem I could make him better. You know, I
got Brown and said, they all three, I can't make
them better. Um the MJ documentary, I thought, I remember
(14:35):
when they made um the movie Wall Street about Gordon
Gecko and Michael Douglas and Oliver Stone said, I didn't
try to glamorize him and make him popular, but everybody,
every stockbroker wanted to be Gordon Gecko, and the faults
of Gecko became sort of romanticized. And Sam, when I
(14:55):
watched the MJ documentary, Now, obviously MJ had some say it,
but even Warts and uh, you know, Will Purdue saying
things about it. Yeah, I found it. Maybe it's because
the league is, you know, it's it's more of a
three point shooting league. It's more skilled, but more finesse.
I found it incredibly likable. I'm like, I missed the layering,
(15:17):
I missed the toughness. I missed I missed guys not
all being best friends. I was. I fell into it, Sam,
I I that documentary. I made me like Michael Moore.
What was your takeaway on it? Well, A couple of
takes What the one takeaway? That I like, and it's
sort of one of the things I was criticized was
(15:37):
his Hall of Fame speech where he pointed, you know,
the guy who beat him, you know, got on them,
you know, got on the varsity ahead of him. And
he brought in different guys over the years that he
you know, he had these um challenges by and people said, well,
this is this is horrible. At the Call of Fame
he was sort of laming guys for this time, and no,
(15:58):
this is this is great because he showed you exactly
who he is and who he's always been. And you
know that that's the attraction of it, you know what
you said the Jordan Rules when I wrote it, and
one of the reasons why I was surprised is because
I saw it as as a sympathetic portrait, you know,
(16:19):
if you you know, and I know, you know, our
version of Twitter back then was headlines and things taken
out of you know, contacts or whatever. What people would
complain it to us about. You took it out of context,
the headline didn't represent the story and all. And so
there was a lot of that with the Jordan Rules,
you know, just like now, people didn't always read back
(16:40):
then either. Uh, when I depicted you know my depiction
because I'd like Jordan, I've been around them a long time.
I really appreciated his competitiveness and his zeal and you know,
his willingness to try to pull this group along, you know,
kind of with him, uh, and what he went through
how to pistons atacked him, you know. But not only that,
(17:03):
you know, I remember the one year at the MVP boat. Uh.
You know, Magic was very close with Isaiah. We were
sitting in a locker room and it came down, Uh,
Magic had won the MVP and all that reported, and
he was very gracious and for the book, we had
a good relations I'm sitting with him in the locker
room and it happened to be in Detroit and every
all reporters when he turns to me and he goes
(17:25):
anybody but that guy, meaning Magic, meaning they held up
Magic all the time and saying he's the guy who
made everybody better, not me. Yeah, and so that you
know that sort of saying. So I sort of viewed
it sympathetically, but you know the notion of the fights
and you know, the taking Harss grand dinner, and you know,
you don't deserve to eat because you played there. You
(17:47):
know it sort of looked both ways. Um. Sam Smith
joining us writer for the Bulls dot Com. Um it
is um. I one of the things that is a
active about Michael. I couldn't watch a ten part Brady
or Lebron documentary, and that social media has shown me
(18:08):
all I ever need to see about any player, what
they eat, their family. I get now, their opinions on vaccines,
their political opinions. You know Michael. As we peel the
layers back on Michael and the Air movie, I didn't
know that much about him because we didn't know that
much about anybody, and that I think what makes Michael
(18:31):
appealing to me. The journey for basketball Sam was not
as grooved as it is today through Au It's just
not it's just groove. Now they're all friends, nobody's battling
for a piece of the pie. Otto porter can make
two hundred million dollars. It's a different world. And I
do think the struggle, although Michael's struggle is less than others. Hell,
the Jerry Kraus stuff, it is fascinating. I'm watching the
(18:54):
Sonny of Acaro stuff, and you know the toughness of
his mother. There's parts of the privacy of Michael. You
were on an inner circle for a long time, but
I view him now it's a bit of a private figure.
How would you describe that, even as an owner of
(19:14):
the Bobcats, he never really talked much, right, And actually
that was what was great about the documentary The Last Stance,
because it really was the first time he sat down
and showed you who he was kind of relaxed. Didn't
kind of do it through a commercial because you know,
he was always he always felt it wasn't so much
(19:37):
he was wanted to promote himself, but he felt an obligation.
I mean, I mean, he really had a good upbringing.
And I haven't I didn't see the Sneaker movie yet,
but his mother, I know, had a huge part. He
was very close with his father. They were really best
friends more than father's son, you know, and at loss
(19:59):
was tremendous, But he always felt as a responsibility and
obligation to his sponsors. So to remember him talking about
that to act in a certain way as a result
of that, and so you know, he finally now he
saw over the years and I credited him for that.
(20:19):
I actually I remember he wasn't selling himself. I remember
one time, and he'd become tremendously popular, and he was
popular all over the world. I mean the I remember
the North North Korean the dad who who who gone,
had a crazy sons there, but they were sending for
(20:41):
bulls memorabilia back then from North Korea. Um, you know.
And and when David Stern went to China, uh, he
always he always talked about you know, China didn't know
anything about the NBA. They hadn't heard of anybody. But
they had asked him about the red oxen and the
bull that's all they knew, you know. And so but
(21:01):
as a result, you know, he understood that. But at
the same time, and we see why he's made fortune,
billionaire whatever. I remember a Japanese company had contacted him
and said they would pay him a million dollars for
an appearance, and he's and he and this was like
nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine, something like that, and he said,
I'm not just going to sell myself like that. I'm
(21:21):
not going to do that because so so you know
this sort of uh, I'm not surprised that he's he's
he's that way now, and that's why the documentary was
great because you're not going to see him otherwise, he's
not going to be around he you know, the NBA
has brought out everybody, Bill Russell and Oscar robertson All
(21:43):
Star Games and finals and they named the awards. He's
the one who never shows up anywhere. You know, you
never see him anywhere. He's at all these All Star games,
you know, for Nike, but you've never seen him in public.
And you know, I wish he would a little more,
you know. He he doesn't want to sell himself and
(22:05):
cheap in it really and it's really even smart. Yeah,
I mean privacy and not knowing everything about you. I
remember Jack Nicholson, the Great Owner, saying he wouldn't go
on these shows when he was promoting a movie and
He's like, why would I give me away for free?
I want that theater experience to be really special. And
(22:26):
I think about that all the time. I you know,
I see everybody putting their meals and their vacations on Instagram,
and I think, you know, it's okay to have some
private stuff in your life. I don't need to market
my every time I go walk on the beach in Florida.
The ownership in Charlotte, Sam I've said this, and it
(22:47):
may be unfair that Michael was Ohays. First of all,
he was a very good decision maker, David Falk, Phil Knight,
Phil Jackson. He tended to have excellent dgment and be
pretty picky on the people that he would choose to
guide his journey. So he had and by the way,
I'm watching Lamar Jackson. Now he has his mom as
(23:09):
an agent. Now he got an agent to day that's
not registered. Some guys don't make great decisions Michael made
and Lebron's done this. Michael made very solid decisions Sonny
Vacaro on the people that pitched him and he listened to.
I didn't expect the ownership with Charlotte to be great
because I always thought Michael was great at elevating Michael.
(23:29):
But to be an executive, a coach, or an owner,
it's a lot of giving. It is, to some degree
elevating others. Is it unfair characteristic to say Michael was
better at elevating Michael, his brand and his net worth
than sometimes elevating those around him. He didn't have the
patience for it. I don't know about that that's a
(23:51):
hard one. First of all, you know, ownership management is
an awful lot of luck. You know, the Bulls lucked
in the Jordan in eighty. Had they not, they probably
they wouldn't have had any titles they would have had
you know, twenty five fifty years, the Phoenix Suns have
never won a title despite whatever, and so you know,
you got to get lucky. Charlotte has never gotten lucky.
(24:13):
I remember, uh, you know, people like to think, fans, media, whatever,
that just because you've succeeded in something that you'll succeed uh,
you know, because of what you did in your specialty,
you know. And it's sort of like all these coaches
who sort of stood next to uh Bill Parcels. Uh,
(24:34):
you know, just because you're you're you're around somebody who's successful,
doesn't mean you're going to be successful. And so you know,
it's difficult to sort of pick guys. Michael, you know,
you know, had difficulty you know, who exactly could he
trust in our situations? And so I remember when the Bulls,
you know, ninety eight they broke up, and you know
(24:56):
I would in the last dance, and so the fans
in the media, the notion was, well, let Michael run
the team. You know, he's a winner, you know. And
so we don't hear that much anymore anymore since the
Charlotte's situation. And I don't think it's a case of
Michael being concerned about celebrating himself. I don't think that
what he was about. It's just, you know, you don't
(25:19):
go to school for management of a sports team. There's
no there's no degree, you know, there's no tests like
to be a CPA or a lawyer or something like that.
So you know, who does these things? How do you
do it? Um? You know, it's it's a lot of luck,
and he just hasn't gotten lucky. I mean that sort
of a simplified version of it. Um, he's been in
(25:41):
the lottery. You know, you get your bad you don't
get Lebron, you get you know, you get you get
the second guy makes tremendous differences. And so you know,
now now I see he's gonna cash out, you know,
in the league one thing him in. David Stern wanted
him in and basically almost gave him that franchise, you know,
to have him in the game. Basically, I think he
just paid off the debts, and so one thing Michael
(26:04):
has always done. He used to joke about OPM, you know,
the way to operate a businesses with other people's money.
So he was always he was always bright about that,
and he always always understood equity and he always understood value.
And he's tried, but you can see in the last
couple of years he's lost the enthusiasm for it just
(26:25):
because it's so hard. The irony is now, you know,
you know, on the ownership the governors whatever they call themselves.
Now Michael got was put in charge of the labor
committee of the owners and he was appalled at these
salaries that they started daying, you know, because you know
he made at the time when he made the thirty million,
(26:48):
it was you know, ten million more. Patrickeing I think
made eighteen or nineteen, and the next highest were like
ten or twelve, you know, so he's making double or
triple whatever anyone is, and you know, now it's sort
of you know, on the bottom side of next steeling.
He was just sort of appalled that the salaries that
were becoming right of that. But I don't think it
(27:09):
was an ego thing as much as it's really a
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When you look back at covering Michael, did you instantly know?
(29:27):
Because the first couple of years I can remember Orlando Woolridge.
If I recalled Quentin daily, it was guys that needed
the ball, and Michael, you know, was not going to
suffer those guys gladly like he wanted the ball and
he was better, and he was I imagine at practice
was letting them know on a daily basis he was better.
But when did you know because he did an average
(29:50):
a ton of points in college. When did you have
this sense and talk to other people or maybe you
just it was your personal insight that you thought, boy,
this is different. This may be the both gifted basketball
player I've ever seen. I mean, you're in my generation. Sam.
I I grew up and there I saw the old
Wilt and the young Kareem. Michael didn't Doctor Jay, but
(30:15):
Doctor j didn't have the mid range, dependable game. He
was spectacular, but he wasn't as relentless nightly every possession
like Michael. Was. There a moment that kind of crystallized
it for you when you really felt going back sitting
on that press table and you thought, boy, this may
be the greatest basketball player we're ever going to see. Well,
(30:38):
you know, I don't know if we went to the
greatest ever early, but we went pretty spectacular early. You
know the old joke, of course, was the only one
who could hold him under twenty points a game with
Dean Smith. So this is the first practice, and Rod
Forne is the both GM had been the GM for
like seven or eight years, had lottery picks almost every year,
and the team has went in tw twenty eight games.
(31:02):
And so Jordan is the first practice. Kevin Lockery's the coach,
and this is the first practice of Jordan's first season.
And Bill Blair, as I remember, as the assistant then
and Rod Missus, Rob can't go to the first practice
to something business then came up, and so Rod miss
is the first practice. Bill Blair calls them. At the
(31:23):
end of the first practice, Rod's telling me this story,
and Bill Blair says, he finally didn't screw up a draft.
He said, we have never seen anything like this guy.
He came in with all the and you mentioned Woolwich
was a top ten pick, went in Daily's the top
ten picks, Inney Green, Ronnie Lester, all top ten picks,
(31:46):
and he just blew out everybody. The first couple of practices,
he's blowing by everybody. He's dunking on everybody. You know
as that famous story when he came in as a
freshman at North Carolina and the first thing he did
he went to the board and he started writing the
Times listing the names of Worthy Perkins, all these all Americans,
(32:07):
saying how many times he dunked on them. So that's
the way he started in North Carolina, and that's the
way he came into the Bulls. Okay. So I hear
these stories that coming out of training camp and we
go see him and it's still training camp and walks
into the season. I think third game in he hits
a winner in Milwaukee, like six games in forty nine
(32:28):
points against I think, what's Portland or something? You know,
I we're bringing in Portland. Media is all saying we
got a center. This guy's not specially got Clyde Drexler.
And I remember the Chicago guys watch this. Where do
you see this? So we didn't exactly know, say, Okay,
this is guy's going to be you know better an
Oscar and you know or bird or magic or will
(32:51):
or whatever. But this was different. This was different than
than anything we've seem because of the combination you know,
of the athletics is the drive and the incredible competitiveness
and this will to win win everything, you know, which
sort of evolved and we saw more from year to year. Uh,
you know, there's always this debate the greatest and who's
(33:14):
the great you know, in its arbitrary Lebron's got the
most points. Now, you know, in my year are going back.
You know, the two greatest things I remember back basketball
is Will coming to the NBA and Kareem coming to
the NBA. You know, went in basically everything out of college.
And so they said, well, how can Jordan you know,
Bill Russell's got the most championships, Gareem and now Lebron's
(33:36):
got the most point How could this guy be the
greatest ever? And one thing I always point to with
me is that nobody in sports, and certainly in American sports,
and I can't imagine worldwide sports has crossed over and
had the influence on society that he has because of
the basketball the shoes become fashioned. Likes to tell the story.
(34:01):
You know, he's the MVPs and Portland's Phil Knights there.
Phil Knight comes to him say, you know, we're gonna
put your name on sneakers. We're gonna do this whole
thing about you know, air bail or whatever he said,
who's gonna buy sneakers with my name on? What a
stupid idea that is, you know? And so baldness is okay,
Now I can I can start shaving my head men
(34:22):
and wearing jewelry, you know, long short fashion, all all
these things that transcend the game attached to him. That's
what makes you the greatest. That's a Babe Ruth kind
of thing. That's an ali kind of thing where you
can't measure them only in the sport, but you can
measure their effect on the world and society. And and
(34:43):
his has been to me more than anybody that we've
ever experienced. Bulls dot com Sam Smith. Does Michael visit
Chicago a lot, golf tournaments, bulls games. His mother does
some charity work, fairly substantial charity work, I heard, But
does Michael ever visit Chicago now Never? As far as
(35:07):
I can tell, he has never been here. I think
his house it's still for sale up in Highland Park.
But he built this mansion kind of thing which is
well overvalued, and I mean not in a bad neighborhood,
but it's just near a highway's and it's been for
sale like ten twelve years or something. Nobody you know,
buy it's got twenty threes all over the gate and
(35:28):
stuff like that. But as far as I know, I've
never heard him being here. Wow. You know, it's interesting.
You know, passionate relationship with Chicago leaves very close relationship
with Barkley. It ends. It is an interesting personality. It's
(35:49):
not a tech, it's just who he is. I don't know,
how do you explain that though those are both unique.
You know, I don't know of another player. Maybe Brady
won't go back to New England. I don't know it.
I find it just an interesting personality behavioral personality elements.
What do you make of that? Well, again, because of
(36:13):
the sort of the Howard Us sort of element to
him over the years that he wasn't going to make
himself public and you know, he's as like you know
mentioned before, he doesn't want to be, uh, you know,
a public figure. He always used to talk way early,
way earlier, and actually he would tell us, he said,
you know, once I'm gone, you'll never see me again.
(36:36):
And you know, there was an element of that. I
remember him talking about that in the eighties that I'm
going to finish my career, and when I'm my career
is over, you will never see me. It's sort of
been true, but he always the other thing. He used
to say too, I'm never going to be a show pony.
And I think that's why it doesn't go at the
All Star Game or at least come out publicly. You
don't see him in public much, doesn't, you know, you know,
(36:58):
I mean, can you imagine the amount of anymore? I mean,
you know what rich people enough never seems enough. They're
always doing something. Can you imagine the amount of money
Michael Jordan could make in appearances or things other things
he did in public? Millions people who would pay just
you know, probably he's probably the most famous person in
the world, maybe the most most. He loved um, but
(37:23):
he's never you know, he doesn't take advantage of that,
and he never has any any And for whatever the
reason was. At a young age in his twenties, he
talked about that that this is something I'll never do,
That's something I'll never be a part of. I'm not
going to sell myself as as a commodity, as a product,
you know, I'm going to show what I can do
(37:45):
and then obviously, you know, he was secure with what
they was making. But you know, and I don't know
how they depicted it in that movie. Um, but you know,
he didn't he didn't go seek out the shoe contracts
and the Nike. He was very reluctant. And I remembered
early on his mother kind of drags him out there,
and that's what the movie said. Yeah. But also after
(38:07):
the first deal, it was like a three or four
or five year I don't know what the first contract was.
He didn't want to re up with Nike. I remember
Craig Hodges talked to him about maybe starting a local
brand or something. Nike had done something I'm sure that's
not in the movie that he was upset with and
he didn't want to go. He was thinking about going
with another company. I think he said he said, I
(38:28):
wored Converse or stottm in college. Maybe I'll go with them. So,
you know, he he was kind of it wasn't so
much he was saying, I'm Michael Jordan. I can do
what I want. Is that, you know, it's not my
life to sell myself as a sneaker salesman. Now he's obviously,
you know, turned it in but he's turned it. The
other thing that he's turned it into a quality product.
(38:50):
And I think that's what he's proud about, that things
associated with Michael about quality and then not cheap and
it's not a show pony just for the money. Sam Smith,
covering the NBA a long time, Milwaukee is the best
team I've seen this year. I think they have shotmakers,
three elite defenders with Drew Holliday, Lopez and Janis. I
(39:13):
just don't know situationally, if I like Boston as much
this year as last. I don't know about Wiggins or
k D. The West is wide open. I don't trust
Denver the best team you've seen this year live, Who
would it be? Yeah, I even though and the Bulls
have beat him two out of three Milwaukee, you know,
but I think one of them Yannis got hurt early
(39:34):
in one of the games and Chris Middleton wasn't playing.
But yeah, I mean the West is as even as
you know, unpowerful you say that, as it's ever been.
You know, there's no dominant player really in the West.
You know, with Lebron situation as health, and that's really
a change in the NBA that there's no great teams anymore.
(39:57):
There's no there's no super team put together. And so
I kind of agree with you with Boston. When I
watched Boston, it's all and I and I don't, you know,
nobody cares. You know, I don't like the way the
games played now with this proliferation of three pointers, and
you know, it's like to sort of get off my
lawn stuff. You know, who cares about what you say?
(40:18):
You know, but you watch Boston and Tatum and Brown
and they'll shoot like ten or twelve threes and they
miss them all. And instead of saying, well, you know, okay,
I'm not I'm not on maybe I'll go to the basket,
doesn't shoot ten more. So it just comes down to,
you know, they're gonna make him or not. You know,
I think the notion is they probably think we're out
(40:39):
of seven games. We could make enough threes to win. Yeah,
and so, um, you know, Philadelphia's flooded and both were
in the Philly got Philly twice this week. In Harden
is just kind of a shell of himself, and yeah,
you know he's not, you know, sort of Scottie Pippen
number two to the embat and beat is really carrying
(41:01):
that thing on his own. That's why I think MVP
would be legitimate, you know, much more legitimates for him
and deserving and you know one of those three. You know,
to me, Jannis probably is the best overall player, but
he's got really a lot of help. Drew Holiday in
Middleton and there's a lot there, and there's some depth. Yes,
(41:22):
Bobby Portish, they picked up you know, he hadn't even Jader,
They picked Crowder, but they also picked up Gordon Draggets
from the Bulls Bills. Let Tragis go. He went up there.
He hadn't played anything, but clearly to saving him just
for the playoff. A guy can walk in and make
a shot run a team. So to me, they seem
like the only really loaded team like Boston. I don't
(41:44):
like their depth. I don't think they got much depth. Um,
you know, Cleveland's just there so on the edge. The
rest of the East is just trying to fighting to
get in the playoffs, and the West, any one of
those first eight or nine teams can win, I don't
think any. I don't see any dominance any of those teams. Yeah,
Dallas and Sacramento don't play defense. Phoenix doesn't have a bench.
(42:07):
Warriors are absolutely missing wing and frontcourt scoring. It's all
guard scoring, and I just don't trust the team led
by Kawhi Leonard. I think he's a remarkable talent, but
I think he's a guy you can add to an
already baked culture. I don't think you can build your
culture around him. I think he's a tough teammate, you know,
(42:27):
shows up some nights at three forty five and says,
I'm not playing. I've been told, so I think it's
wide open. Sam, what a pleasure for me? Writer for
Bulls dot Com E folks. The nineteen ninety one New
York Times best settler of the Jordan Rules is a
terrific read. It's journalism at its highest form. And again,
(42:47):
it's just great talking to you on an annual basis.
I always get smarter and learn stuff, Sam. Thank you. Colin. Yeah,
I enjoy it, and maybe we can make it six
months next time the volume. Make sure to check out
(43:14):
the Draymond Green Show. I brought Draymond Green into the
volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports.
Unique perspective understands behind the rope, also chops up with
guests like Gary Peyton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure
download The Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcasts,
only on the Volume Podcast Network
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MD gambling help dot org Maryland one eight seven seven
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(01:52):
Welcome in to a Wednesday morning podcast. Every year, I
interview Sam Smith, who in nineteen ninety one wrote the
New York Times best seller of The Jordan Rules, which
sort of defined the first real public criticism of Michael
Jordan and the pushback he received. But Sam has a
(02:12):
lot of depth and knowledge on MJ and a lot
of positive things to say, so I think you'll really
like the interview. There's a lot of things he brought
up that I had not thought about, and I want
to talk for about five minutes about the movie The
Air movie on Jordan and Sonny Vacaro. So I saw
(02:34):
at the Other night, Monday night premier in LA at
the Design Center in West Hollywood. And so years and
years ago, my first recollection of Sonny Vacaro, I covered
U and LV out of college thirty years ago, over
thirty years ago, and Vacaro hung around the program because
you know, at that time, you and LV was on
a shortlist of the most captivating programs in the country.
(02:57):
And you'd see Sonny Vacaro around the program. And to
be honest with you, you know, Tark always had that
kind of just you know, little shadiness. You know. Tark
was given by un l V about forty tickets per
home game, and Tark could give those out to whoever
he wanted. It was very unique. Even the top coaches
in college basketball at that time, Dean Smith, Nolan Richardson
(03:19):
at Arkansas maybe got four or five tickets per home game.
Tark had like forty forty five. So there were always
people hanging around practice that you know, we're a little
a little shady, you know. And I'd see Sonny of
Acaro around and I didn't know what to make of him.
He was always a very nice guy. But anybody that
(03:40):
hung around Tark, you know, I was a journalist, there
was some controversial players I was always a little suspicious of.
But you could tell very early on he had such
an affection for players. The players loved him. He loved
the players. And then I started asking around about Sonny Vaccaro,
and you found that he was a really brilliant basketball
mind with his heart in the right place. He thought,
(04:01):
he thought players deserve something for all their time and effort.
And Sonny Pacaro was a really important figure in the
NCAA's history on reforming college sports. But Vicaro plays a
key role in this movie because as Nike was mostly
a jogging company, because that's what Phil Knight did. And
(04:24):
Phil Knight, you know in the movie, is you know,
not wearing socks, you know, often wandering intellectually. He had
spent a lot of time in Asia, and Phil was
always a unique had kind of an Eastern not Western perspective,
an Eastern perspective on a psychology and philosophy and business.
(04:46):
Makes him a fascinating guy, Phil Knight, And you know,
Vacaro was just a tough, minded, gruff little Chubby was
never going to jog. They were very different people, but
in the movie, I think it gives you a sense
of how Phil respected Sonny Vacaro and how Sonny Vacaro
appreciated the courage of a Phil Knight. I think it's
(05:10):
I really thought it was an excellent movie. I'm no
film critic, but the audience erupted in applause multiple times.
And my takeaway on it, I love the relationship between
Sonny Vacaro, who's finally sort of getting the affirmation in
the validation he deserves. Phil's gotten plenty of it. And
also for Michael Jordan's mother, And a real big takeaway
(05:32):
I had in this movie is that Michael's mother, still living,
is a no nonsense woman growing up in the South,
very protective of her son and very demanding of others
respecting her son. And she comes off as incredibly likable
in the movie and powerful. And I really think you
(05:55):
win as an audience watching this movie. You have great
respect for Michael's parents, for Sonny Vicarro, and those people
have not been given the credit and the Michael Jordan's story,
at least outwardly that they probably deserve. So I highly
recommend watching it. For me, it was so personal because
(06:15):
I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and spent six
seven years in Portland. I loved all the drone shots
to the Nike campus and the Steve Prefontaine images and
you know the bridges, you see cars, you know, driving over.
It was really for me. It really worked as a movie,
but I think it gives credit to people who probably
haven't been given those accolades previously in Michael Jordan's legendary career.
(06:40):
You know. I also thought there was a very clever
touch by Ben Affleck is that you never really see
Michael Jordan in the movie. You hear his voice, you
see him from the back, and that's interesting metaphorically because
Michael is a really, really private guy, and without Michael
having a big role in the movie, it allows you
(07:01):
to concentrate more on key figures like his mother and
Sonny Vicaro and Phil Knight. So it gets multiple thumbs
up from me. Very touching, very genuine, and credit to
people who have deserved more through the years. In Michael's
amazing basketball journey with the NFL season, over all eyes
(07:25):
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(08:08):
Download game Time today last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. Well,
I did watch the movie The Air movie about the
early version of Nike Sonny Vacaro and Michael Jordan, and
Michael's mom plays a key figure in this movie. She's
(08:31):
really the star of the movie. And I thought as
I watched the movie, I've been very critical of Michael
through the years, saying that Nike's Air Jordan commercials the
greatest domestic ad campaign of my life, and it has
created almost a reaganlike shield a Teflon shield around Michael,
(08:52):
when if you simply acknowledge previous failings, you're considered a hater. Well,
Sam Smith, who, Well, it's the original critic of Michael,
the only one. Back in nineteen ninety one, The Jordan Rules,
a magnificent book on the turbulent season with Michael Jordan
and the Bulls New York Times bestseller. It was the
talk of the literary sports world for several years. He
(09:15):
got a Lifetime Achievement Award, Pro Basketball Writers Association, Kurt
Goudy Media Award Hall of Fame currently writes for Bulls
dot Com. And whenever I'm critical of Jordan, as I
watched that movie, I always get major pushback. And I've
said this before that you know Michael would punch a
player and they would say, well, he's just very competitive.
(09:35):
Draymond Green punches a guy, should be thrown out of
the league. And I think, you know, it's part of
that smile and charisma. When you released the book, you
obviously knew you were Michael was wildly popular. Did you
expect the avalanche criticism? Did you know it was coming? Cole?
Let me say first, if Michael punched somebody and his
knuckles were bruised. That was on the other guy, and
(09:58):
I think that's what you mention now. I was, you know,
probably talked about that, and I'm frankly pleased that you're
still on the air being critical of Jordan. Um. You
know there's a thought police about that these days. Yeah.
I was probably pretty naive about it, being a reporter,
(10:19):
having been an investigative reporter over the years, I figured, well,
if I just write what's true, you know, what's the
problem with that? And so it was. It was an
incredible you know, it was over thirty years ago. And
you know, one thing I was kind of pleased about
and pleased about a lot of things, you know, with
the Last Dance documentary, but one is that Michael sort
(10:41):
of cop to all this finally took thirty years, but
he said, yeah, yeah, I could be a jerk, but
you know what a reason for it. And so back
then it was saying, yeah, you know, the guy's tough
to live with and people because of as you refer
to those commercials, he was really i mean marketed as
kind of you know, the cliche all American kai. I
(11:03):
remember one of the the Coca Cola sponsors. He he
like leaped up into a treehouse to deliver the Coca
Cola and he I mean, and they made a point
of this. They were doing, you know, Chevrolet apple Pie.
They were doing those controversials to make it as American
as you know, patriotic and could be. And then so
(11:24):
you know, I sort of write a book about behind
the scenes in basketball. He said, well, this is not
Michael Jordan. I saw him in the commercials. He's nothing
like that, right. You know. It's not that I'll defend him,
but I was talking about this with somebody the other day.
A lot of us resent or regret what we did
in our twenties, but we did it for a reason.
We were immature. I mean, I grew up divorced kid
(11:47):
on my own, not a lot of money in the family,
and I was a pretty relentless workaholic in my twenties
and that's what I thought I needed and was mature
enough to handle it that time. And I look at
Michael and I said, people say, oh, he was rough
on teammates, but the Pistons were tackling him. The Celtics
were doing about the same. The East was loaded and
(12:07):
physical and it was all allowed by the league, and
I say to myself, relentless was the only way for
Michael to get through it. He was being attacked defensively,
and could I argue that we do things out throughout
the course of our life because it gets us to
a better place. And the East was bullyball, Nicks, Celtics, Pistons,
(12:27):
and Michael was the target for almost all of it.
And he was just he was building up a medal
and a toughness in that Chicago bull team. That was necessary.
I mean, that's exactly right, because you know what gets
overlooked because it Michael Jordan came into the NBA out
(12:48):
of the eighty four Olympics game winning shot in North Carolina.
You know, with such fanfare to dunking in the Sports
Illustrated covers and all that. The notion was, well, he's
gone to see right away. But at the same time, simultaneously,
what Jerry Krous is doing with the Bulls is it's
rebuilding basically. You know, it has Jordan out front, but
(13:09):
he's basically they had a lot of high draft picks,
so decent players on Land to Woolrich and Sydney Green
and players who could have developed or did develop in
other places, and he traded all of them off essentially
for draft picks. Draft picks. You know, they got Pipping
and they got hors Grant and he was sort of
(13:30):
it wasn't called that then, you know, because teams didn't
really dump to the draft back then because they have
infectly needed the tendance. And really Jordan should have been
with the Pacers. One of the great overlooked stories is
the reason Portland had the Pick was the Pacers had
lost James Edwards and for attendance needed a center, so
they traded to Pick to Portland, and that's how Portland
(13:52):
ended up. You know, I'm using for Sambooie and all.
But anyway, so Jordan comes in and the notion as well,
he's his great figure. He's got to compete again Bird
Magic Isaiah and they've got Bill Teems and he's looking around,
but when his roster and goes, well, you know, I've
got I don't what have I got here? I got
Kyle Macy and I he's you know, and so you
(14:14):
know that was sort of a joke about. You know,
they said, well Jordan couldn't make guys better, and he
used to say well, yeah, if I had James Worthy
and Kareem I could make him better. You know, I
got Brown and said, they all three, I can't make
them better. Um the MJ documentary, I thought, I remember
(14:35):
when they made um the movie Wall Street about Gordon
Gecko and Michael Douglas and Oliver Stone said, I didn't
try to glamorize him and make him popular, but everybody,
every stockbroker wanted to be Gordon Gecko, and the faults
of Gecko became sort of romanticized. And Sam, when I
(14:55):
watched the MJ documentary, Now, obviously MJ had some say it,
but even Warts and uh, you know, Will Purdue saying
things about it. Yeah, I found it. Maybe it's because
the league is, you know, it's it's more of a
three point shooting league. It's more skilled, but more finesse.
I found it incredibly likable. I'm like, I missed the layering,
(15:17):
I missed the toughness. I missed I missed guys not
all being best friends. I was. I fell into it, Sam,
I I that documentary. I made me like Michael Moore.
What was your takeaway on it? Well, A couple of
takes What the one takeaway? That I like, and it's
sort of one of the things I was criticized was
(15:37):
his Hall of Fame speech where he pointed, you know,
the guy who beat him, you know, got on them,
you know, got on the varsity ahead of him. And
he brought in different guys over the years that he
you know, he had these um challenges by and people said, well,
this is this is horrible. At the Call of Fame
he was sort of laming guys for this time, and no,
(15:58):
this is this is great because he showed you exactly
who he is and who he's always been. And you
know that that's the attraction of it, you know what
you said the Jordan Rules when I wrote it, and
one of the reasons why I was surprised is because
I saw it as as a sympathetic portrait, you know,
(16:19):
if you you know, and I know, you know, our
version of Twitter back then was headlines and things taken
out of you know, contacts or whatever. What people would
complain it to us about. You took it out of context,
the headline didn't represent the story and all. And so
there was a lot of that with the Jordan Rules,
you know, just like now, people didn't always read back
(16:40):
then either. Uh, when I depicted you know my depiction
because I'd like Jordan, I've been around them a long time.
I really appreciated his competitiveness and his zeal and you know,
his willingness to try to pull this group along, you know,
kind of with him, uh, and what he went through
how to pistons atacked him, you know. But not only that,
(17:03):
you know, I remember the one year at the MVP boat. Uh.
You know, Magic was very close with Isaiah. We were
sitting in a locker room and it came down, Uh,
Magic had won the MVP and all that reported, and
he was very gracious and for the book, we had
a good relations I'm sitting with him in the locker
room and it happened to be in Detroit and every
all reporters when he turns to me and he goes
(17:25):
anybody but that guy, meaning Magic, meaning they held up
Magic all the time and saying he's the guy who
made everybody better, not me. Yeah, and so that you
know that sort of saying. So I sort of viewed
it sympathetically, but you know the notion of the fights
and you know, the taking Harss grand dinner, and you know,
you don't deserve to eat because you played there. You
(17:47):
know it sort of looked both ways. Um. Sam Smith
joining us writer for the Bulls dot Com. Um it
is um. I one of the things that is a
active about Michael. I couldn't watch a ten part Brady
or Lebron documentary, and that social media has shown me
(18:08):
all I ever need to see about any player, what
they eat, their family. I get now, their opinions on vaccines,
their political opinions. You know Michael. As we peel the
layers back on Michael and the Air movie, I didn't
know that much about him because we didn't know that
much about anybody, and that I think what makes Michael
(18:31):
appealing to me. The journey for basketball Sam was not
as grooved as it is today through Au It's just
not it's just groove. Now they're all friends, nobody's battling
for a piece of the pie. Otto porter can make
two hundred million dollars. It's a different world. And I
do think the struggle, although Michael's struggle is less than others. Hell,
the Jerry Kraus stuff, it is fascinating. I'm watching the
(18:54):
Sonny of Acaro stuff, and you know the toughness of
his mother. There's parts of the privacy of Michael. You
were on an inner circle for a long time, but
I view him now it's a bit of a private figure.
How would you describe that, even as an owner of
(19:14):
the Bobcats, he never really talked much, right, And actually
that was what was great about the documentary The Last Stance,
because it really was the first time he sat down
and showed you who he was kind of relaxed. Didn't
kind of do it through a commercial because you know,
he was always he always felt it wasn't so much
(19:37):
he was wanted to promote himself, but he felt an obligation.
I mean, I mean, he really had a good upbringing.
And I haven't I didn't see the Sneaker movie yet,
but his mother, I know, had a huge part. He
was very close with his father. They were really best
friends more than father's son, you know, and at loss
(19:59):
was tremendous, But he always felt as a responsibility and
obligation to his sponsors. So to remember him talking about
that to act in a certain way as a result
of that, and so you know, he finally now he
saw over the years and I credited him for that.
(20:19):
I actually I remember he wasn't selling himself. I remember
one time, and he'd become tremendously popular, and he was
popular all over the world. I mean the I remember
the North North Korean the dad who who who gone,
had a crazy sons there, but they were sending for
(20:41):
bulls memorabilia back then from North Korea. Um, you know.
And and when David Stern went to China, uh, he
always he always talked about you know, China didn't know
anything about the NBA. They hadn't heard of anybody. But
they had asked him about the red oxen and the
bull that's all they knew, you know. And so but
(21:01):
as a result, you know, he understood that. But at
the same time, and we see why he's made fortune,
billionaire whatever. I remember a Japanese company had contacted him
and said they would pay him a million dollars for
an appearance, and he's and he and this was like
nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine, something like that, and he said,
I'm not just going to sell myself like that. I'm
(21:21):
not going to do that because so so you know
this sort of uh, I'm not surprised that he's he's
he's that way now, and that's why the documentary was
great because you're not going to see him otherwise, he's
not going to be around he you know, the NBA
has brought out everybody, Bill Russell and Oscar robertson All
(21:43):
Star Games and finals and they named the awards. He's
the one who never shows up anywhere. You know, you
never see him anywhere. He's at all these All Star games,
you know, for Nike, but you've never seen him in public.
And you know, I wish he would a little more,
you know. He he doesn't want to sell himself and
(22:05):
cheap in it really and it's really even smart. Yeah,
I mean privacy and not knowing everything about you. I
remember Jack Nicholson, the Great Owner, saying he wouldn't go
on these shows when he was promoting a movie and
He's like, why would I give me away for free?
I want that theater experience to be really special. And
(22:26):
I think about that all the time. I you know,
I see everybody putting their meals and their vacations on Instagram,
and I think, you know, it's okay to have some
private stuff in your life. I don't need to market
my every time I go walk on the beach in Florida.
The ownership in Charlotte, Sam I've said this, and it
(22:47):
may be unfair that Michael was Ohays. First of all,
he was a very good decision maker, David Falk, Phil Knight,
Phil Jackson. He tended to have excellent dgment and be
pretty picky on the people that he would choose to
guide his journey. So he had and by the way,
I'm watching Lamar Jackson. Now he has his mom as
(23:09):
an agent. Now he got an agent to day that's
not registered. Some guys don't make great decisions Michael made
and Lebron's done this. Michael made very solid decisions Sonny
Vacaro on the people that pitched him and he listened to.
I didn't expect the ownership with Charlotte to be great
because I always thought Michael was great at elevating Michael.
(23:29):
But to be an executive, a coach, or an owner,
it's a lot of giving. It is, to some degree
elevating others. Is it unfair characteristic to say Michael was
better at elevating Michael, his brand and his net worth
than sometimes elevating those around him. He didn't have the
patience for it. I don't know about that that's a
(23:51):
hard one. First of all, you know, ownership management is
an awful lot of luck. You know, the Bulls lucked
in the Jordan in eighty. Had they not, they probably
they wouldn't have had any titles they would have had
you know, twenty five fifty years, the Phoenix Suns have
never won a title despite whatever, and so you know,
you got to get lucky. Charlotte has never gotten lucky.
(24:13):
I remember, uh, you know, people like to think, fans, media, whatever,
that just because you've succeeded in something that you'll succeed uh,
you know, because of what you did in your specialty,
you know. And it's sort of like all these coaches
who sort of stood next to uh Bill Parcels. Uh,
(24:34):
you know, just because you're you're you're around somebody who's successful,
doesn't mean you're going to be successful. And so you know,
it's difficult to sort of pick guys. Michael, you know,
you know, had difficulty you know, who exactly could he
trust in our situations? And so I remember when the Bulls,
you know, ninety eight they broke up, and you know
(24:56):
I would in the last dance, and so the fans
in the media, the notion was, well, let Michael run
the team. You know, he's a winner, you know. And
so we don't hear that much anymore anymore since the
Charlotte's situation. And I don't think it's a case of
Michael being concerned about celebrating himself. I don't think that
what he was about. It's just, you know, you don't
(25:19):
go to school for management of a sports team. There's
no there's no degree, you know, there's no tests like
to be a CPA or a lawyer or something like that.
So you know, who does these things? How do you
do it? Um? You know, it's it's a lot of luck,
and he just hasn't gotten lucky. I mean that sort
of a simplified version of it. Um, he's been in
(25:41):
the lottery. You know, you get your bad you don't
get Lebron, you get you know, you get you get
the second guy makes tremendous differences. And so you know,
now now I see he's gonna cash out, you know,
in the league one thing him in. David Stern wanted
him in and basically almost gave him that franchise, you know,
to have him in the game. Basically, I think he
just paid off the debts, and so one thing Michael
(26:04):
has always done. He used to joke about OPM, you know,
the way to operate a businesses with other people's money.
So he was always he was always bright about that,
and he always always understood equity and he always understood value.
And he's tried, but you can see in the last
couple of years he's lost the enthusiasm for it just
(26:25):
because it's so hard. The irony is now, you know,
you know, on the ownership the governors whatever they call themselves.
Now Michael got was put in charge of the labor
committee of the owners and he was appalled at these
salaries that they started daying, you know, because you know
he made at the time when he made the thirty million,
(26:48):
it was you know, ten million more. Patrickeing I think
made eighteen or nineteen, and the next highest were like
ten or twelve, you know, so he's making double or
triple whatever anyone is, and you know, now it's sort
of you know, on the bottom side of next steeling.
He was just sort of appalled that the salaries that
were becoming right of that. But I don't think it
(27:09):
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When you look back at covering Michael, did you instantly know?
(29:27):
Because the first couple of years I can remember Orlando Woolridge.
If I recalled Quentin daily, it was guys that needed
the ball, and Michael, you know, was not going to
suffer those guys gladly like he wanted the ball and
he was better, and he was I imagine at practice
was letting them know on a daily basis he was better.
But when did you know because he did an average
(29:50):
a ton of points in college. When did you have
this sense and talk to other people or maybe you
just it was your personal insight that you thought, boy,
this is different. This may be the both gifted basketball
player I've ever seen. I mean, you're in my generation. Sam.
I I grew up and there I saw the old
Wilt and the young Kareem. Michael didn't Doctor Jay, but
(30:15):
Doctor j didn't have the mid range, dependable game. He
was spectacular, but he wasn't as relentless nightly every possession
like Michael. Was. There a moment that kind of crystallized
it for you when you really felt going back sitting
on that press table and you thought, boy, this may
be the greatest basketball player we're ever going to see. Well,
(30:38):
you know, I don't know if we went to the
greatest ever early, but we went pretty spectacular early. You
know the old joke, of course, was the only one
who could hold him under twenty points a game with
Dean Smith. So this is the first practice, and Rod
Forne is the both GM had been the GM for
like seven or eight years, had lottery picks almost every year,
and the team has went in tw twenty eight games.
(31:02):
And so Jordan is the first practice. Kevin Lockery's the coach,
and this is the first practice of Jordan's first season.
And Bill Blair, as I remember, as the assistant then
and Rod Missus, Rob can't go to the first practice
to something business then came up, and so Rod miss
is the first practice. Bill Blair calls them. At the
(31:23):
end of the first practice, Rod's telling me this story,
and Bill Blair says, he finally didn't screw up a draft.
He said, we have never seen anything like this guy.
He came in with all the and you mentioned Woolwich
was a top ten pick, went in Daily's the top
ten picks, Inney Green, Ronnie Lester, all top ten picks,
(31:46):
and he just blew out everybody. The first couple of practices,
he's blowing by everybody. He's dunking on everybody. You know
as that famous story when he came in as a
freshman at North Carolina and the first thing he did
he went to the board and he started writing the
Times listing the names of Worthy Perkins, all these all Americans,
(32:07):
saying how many times he dunked on them. So that's
the way he started in North Carolina, and that's the
way he came into the Bulls. Okay. So I hear
these stories that coming out of training camp and we
go see him and it's still training camp and walks
into the season. I think third game in he hits
a winner in Milwaukee, like six games in forty nine
(32:28):
points against I think, what's Portland or something? You know,
I we're bringing in Portland. Media is all saying we
got a center. This guy's not specially got Clyde Drexler.
And I remember the Chicago guys watch this. Where do
you see this? So we didn't exactly know, say, Okay,
this is guy's going to be you know better an
Oscar and you know or bird or magic or will
(32:51):
or whatever. But this was different. This was different than
than anything we've seem because of the combination you know,
of the athletics is the drive and the incredible competitiveness
and this will to win win everything, you know, which
sort of evolved and we saw more from year to year. Uh,
you know, there's always this debate the greatest and who's
(33:14):
the great you know, in its arbitrary Lebron's got the
most points. Now, you know, in my year are going back.
You know, the two greatest things I remember back basketball
is Will coming to the NBA and Kareem coming to
the NBA. You know, went in basically everything out of college.
And so they said, well, how can Jordan you know,
Bill Russell's got the most championships, Gareem and now Lebron's
(33:36):
got the most point How could this guy be the
greatest ever? And one thing I always point to with
me is that nobody in sports, and certainly in American sports,
and I can't imagine worldwide sports has crossed over and
had the influence on society that he has because of
the basketball the shoes become fashioned. Likes to tell the story.
(34:01):
You know, he's the MVPs and Portland's Phil Knights there.
Phil Knight comes to him say, you know, we're gonna
put your name on sneakers. We're gonna do this whole
thing about you know, air bail or whatever he said,
who's gonna buy sneakers with my name on? What a
stupid idea that is, you know? And so baldness is okay,
Now I can I can start shaving my head men
(34:22):
and wearing jewelry, you know, long short fashion, all all
these things that transcend the game attached to him. That's
what makes you the greatest. That's a Babe Ruth kind
of thing. That's an ali kind of thing where you
can't measure them only in the sport, but you can
measure their effect on the world and society. And and
(34:43):
his has been to me more than anybody that we've
ever experienced. Bulls dot com Sam Smith. Does Michael visit
Chicago a lot, golf tournaments, bulls games. His mother does
some charity work, fairly substantial charity work, I heard, But
does Michael ever visit Chicago now Never? As far as
(35:07):
I can tell, he has never been here. I think
his house it's still for sale up in Highland Park.
But he built this mansion kind of thing which is
well overvalued, and I mean not in a bad neighborhood,
but it's just near a highway's and it's been for
sale like ten twelve years or something. Nobody you know,
buy it's got twenty threes all over the gate and
(35:28):
stuff like that. But as far as I know, I've
never heard him being here. Wow. You know, it's interesting.
You know, passionate relationship with Chicago leaves very close relationship
with Barkley. It ends. It is an interesting personality. It's
(35:49):
not a tech, it's just who he is. I don't know,
how do you explain that though those are both unique.
You know, I don't know of another player. Maybe Brady
won't go back to New England. I don't know it.
I find it just an interesting personality behavioral personality elements.
What do you make of that? Well, again, because of
(36:13):
the sort of the Howard Us sort of element to
him over the years that he wasn't going to make
himself public and you know, he's as like you know
mentioned before, he doesn't want to be, uh, you know,
a public figure. He always used to talk way early,
way earlier, and actually he would tell us, he said,
you know, once I'm gone, you'll never see me again.
(36:36):
And you know, there was an element of that. I
remember him talking about that in the eighties that I'm
going to finish my career, and when I'm my career
is over, you will never see me. It's sort of
been true, but he always the other thing. He used
to say too, I'm never going to be a show pony.
And I think that's why it doesn't go at the
All Star Game or at least come out publicly. You
don't see him in public much, doesn't, you know, you know,
(36:58):
I mean, can you imagine the amount of anymore? I mean,
you know what rich people enough never seems enough. They're
always doing something. Can you imagine the amount of money
Michael Jordan could make in appearances or things other things
he did in public? Millions people who would pay just
you know, probably he's probably the most famous person in
the world, maybe the most most. He loved um, but
(37:23):
he's never you know, he doesn't take advantage of that,
and he never has any any And for whatever the
reason was. At a young age in his twenties, he
talked about that that this is something I'll never do,
That's something I'll never be a part of. I'm not
going to sell myself as as a commodity, as a product,
you know, I'm going to show what I can do
(37:45):
and then obviously, you know, he was secure with what
they was making. But you know, and I don't know
how they depicted it in that movie. Um, but you know,
he didn't he didn't go seek out the shoe contracts
and the Nike. He was very reluctant. And I remembered
early on his mother kind of drags him out there,
and that's what the movie said. Yeah. But also after
(38:07):
the first deal, it was like a three or four
or five year I don't know what the first contract was.
He didn't want to re up with Nike. I remember
Craig Hodges talked to him about maybe starting a local
brand or something. Nike had done something I'm sure that's
not in the movie that he was upset with and
he didn't want to go. He was thinking about going
with another company. I think he said he said, I
(38:28):
wored Converse or stottm in college. Maybe I'll go with them. So,
you know, he he was kind of it wasn't so
much he was saying, I'm Michael Jordan. I can do
what I want. Is that, you know, it's not my
life to sell myself as a sneaker salesman. Now he's obviously,
you know, turned it in but he's turned it. The
other thing that he's turned it into a quality product.
(38:50):
And I think that's what he's proud about, that things
associated with Michael about quality and then not cheap and
it's not a show pony just for the money. Sam Smith,
covering the NBA a long time, Milwaukee is the best
team I've seen this year. I think they have shotmakers,
three elite defenders with Drew Holliday, Lopez and Janis. I
(39:13):
just don't know situationally, if I like Boston as much
this year as last. I don't know about Wiggins or
k D. The West is wide open. I don't trust
Denver the best team you've seen this year live, Who
would it be? Yeah, I even though and the Bulls
have beat him two out of three Milwaukee, you know,
but I think one of them Yannis got hurt early
(39:34):
in one of the games and Chris Middleton wasn't playing.
But yeah, I mean the West is as even as
you know, unpowerful you say that, as it's ever been.
You know, there's no dominant player really in the West.
You know, with Lebron situation as health, and that's really
a change in the NBA that there's no great teams anymore.
(39:57):
There's no there's no super team put together. And so
I kind of agree with you with Boston. When I
watched Boston, it's all and I and I don't, you know,
nobody cares. You know, I don't like the way the
games played now with this proliferation of three pointers, and
you know, it's like to sort of get off my
lawn stuff. You know, who cares about what you say?
(40:18):
You know, but you watch Boston and Tatum and Brown
and they'll shoot like ten or twelve threes and they
miss them all. And instead of saying, well, you know, okay,
I'm not I'm not on maybe I'll go to the basket,
doesn't shoot ten more. So it just comes down to,
you know, they're gonna make him or not. You know,
I think the notion is they probably think we're out
(40:39):
of seven games. We could make enough threes to win. Yeah,
and so, um, you know, Philadelphia's flooded and both were
in the Philly got Philly twice this week. In Harden
is just kind of a shell of himself, and yeah,
you know he's not, you know, sort of Scottie Pippen
number two to the embat and beat is really carrying
(41:01):
that thing on his own. That's why I think MVP
would be legitimate, you know, much more legitimates for him
and deserving and you know one of those three. You know,
to me, Jannis probably is the best overall player, but
he's got really a lot of help. Drew Holiday in
Middleton and there's a lot there, and there's some depth. Yes,
(41:22):
Bobby Portish, they picked up you know, he hadn't even Jader,
They picked Crowder, but they also picked up Gordon Draggets
from the Bulls Bills. Let Tragis go. He went up there.
He hadn't played anything, but clearly to saving him just
for the playoff. A guy can walk in and make
a shot run a team. So to me, they seem
like the only really loaded team like Boston. I don't
(41:44):
like their depth. I don't think they got much depth. Um,
you know, Cleveland's just there so on the edge. The
rest of the East is just trying to fighting to
get in the playoffs, and the West, any one of
those first eight or nine teams can win, I don't
think any. I don't see any dominance any of those teams. Yeah,
Dallas and Sacramento don't play defense. Phoenix doesn't have a bench.
(42:07):
Warriors are absolutely missing wing and frontcourt scoring. It's all
guard scoring, and I just don't trust the team led
by Kawhi Leonard. I think he's a remarkable talent, but
I think he's a guy you can add to an
already baked culture. I don't think you can build your
culture around him. I think he's a tough teammate, you know,
(42:27):
shows up some nights at three forty five and says,
I'm not playing. I've been told, so I think it's
wide open. Sam, what a pleasure for me? Writer for
Bulls dot Com E folks. The nineteen ninety one New
York Times best settler of the Jordan Rules is a
terrific read. It's journalism at its highest form. And again,
(42:47):
it's just great talking to you on an annual basis.
I always get smarter and learn stuff, Sam. Thank you. Colin. Yeah,
I enjoy it, and maybe we can make it six
months next time the volume. Make sure to check out
(43:14):
the Draymond Green Show. I brought Draymond Green into the
volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports.
Unique perspective understands behind the rope, also chops up with
guests like Gary Peyton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure
download The Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcasts,
only on the Volume Podcast Network
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