The Greatest Hitter Who Ever Lived On

Ted Williams’s ambitions shaped his legacy but wrecked his relationships. It was only in the 11th hour of his life that the Williams family’s cycle of suffering had a slim chance of being broken.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to the Cost of These Dreams. From Right Thompson,
a podcast about sports stories from My Heart Media, Graphic
audio and Goat Rodeo. This next episode is called The
Greatest Hitter who Ever Lived? On It's pretty much impossible

(00:24):
to talk about baseball greats without mentioning Ted Williams. For
those who might not know who Ted Williams is, he
was a baseball player who played for the Boston Red
Sox in the middle of the twentieth century. He is
probably best known as the greatest hitter Who's ever lived.
He's the last baseball player to ever have hit four
hundred in a season, uh which is unheard of in

(00:48):
modern baseball. In the middle of his baseball playing, he
became a military hero as well. He enlisted in the
Navy and flew fighter jets during World War Two. When
he retired, he had hit over five dued home runs
in his career and still today is widely seen as
one of the best players to ever touch a baseball bat.
And after he retired from baseball, he became a well

(01:09):
respected fly fisherman. He became one of the best fly
fisherman in the world. Actually, Ted Williams is just a
man who pursued excellence in almost everything he did. But
something strange happened at the very end of Ted's life
that altered the public opinion on him. If you didn't
know about Ted Williams, the baseball and military hero, you

(01:32):
might have heard about the Ted Williams who had his
head cryogenically frozen. And once this news broke that Ted
Williams had his head gragenically frozen, almost all of the
public perception around him was tied to this single event.
He was Ted Williams, professional baseball player and man who
had his head frozen. All anyone wanted to talk about

(01:54):
when it came to Ted Williams was his frozen head.
It was just so strange. It didn't make any sense
why this great American hero would have this done. So
reporters started digging into the story, and that's when people
started to learn about Ted Williams family life. One of
the things that were revealed in all this was that

(02:15):
Ted Williams beloved baseball figure, was also Ted Williams terrible
father figure, and by all accounts, the very things that
made him great on the baseball field might have been
the very things that made him such a terrible father.
This was all made very public by a book that

(02:35):
was written from the perspective of Ted's first daughter, Bobby Joe,
who made a lot of allegations about Ted Williams being
an abusive and absent father. And from her side of
the story, Ted's wishes were to have his ashes scattered
near a great fishing spot, and she said Ted's wishes
were ignored by his other two children. This family battle

(02:59):
played out very publicly in courts and on late night
talk shows. But these other two children, John Henry and
Claudie Williams, the ones who had Ted's head cragenically frozen,
they were extremely reticent to share their story, only saying
that this was the family's wishes and they had no

(03:20):
further comment. It was going to be really hard to
find out why they thought this was the right thing
to do. To make matters even more difficult, John Henry
died of leukemia shortly after his father, leaving Claudie Williams,
Ted's youngest daughter, to bear the brunt of all this
public scrutiny. It's at this point we're right goes to

(03:43):
visit Claudie Williams. Ed Williams of the Red Sox up
baseball enigma at times gay, friendly and appable, at others
remm and sullen, at war with the fans and sportswriters,
but always at peace with the kids. I hadn't content
by the side of a fishing stream. Whatever his mood,

(04:04):
he was one of the great baseball hitters of all time.
The story began two years ago when I reached out
to Claudia Williams about meeting at her home and Hernando.
She said that her father, Ted Williams, wanted to be frozen.

(04:26):
When I met her, she was somebody who was just
hiding from the ghost in her life, and it felt
like that was the single most important detail of almost
every moment of every day, was protecting herself from the
past and was in the fall of And we just
talked for hour after hour. She let me go through

(04:47):
the filing cabinets and the safe and her father's hospital records.
So I went down there a lot, and I really
uh liked her and was protective of her. One of
the big conflicts in her life is that the person
she knew had very little to do with Ted Williams,

(05:11):
American hero. That's why people were so mad when his
head got cut off, because they felt like he belonged
to them, and Ted didn't you know, he barely belonged
to anyone, and if he belonged to anyone, it was very,
very briefly, Claudia. So I'm at this old timers game

(05:35):
and I'm with my mom. My brother had the pretty
privilege of being the bat boy on the field, and
the announcers were going through all the wonderful players that
were coming up to bat, and there was Johnny Pesky,
there was Dommy Dommy Dimajo, that was Joe Dimazo's brother.
And I didn't know. I didn't know a lot about baseball,
so when the announcer would talk about this great catcher,

(05:55):
I just assumed, well, dad played baseball, shirtly catched too.
But it wouldn't be ad. So as every time the
announcer started to to to describe the players, I'd grabbed
my mom's T shirt or shirt and I'd say, is
that is that? That? Is that dead? She's like no, no, no, no,
And then the announcer would proceed by saying Johnny Pusky,
dom DiMaggio, Bobby Door. And then finally the announcer started

(06:19):
talking about a player whose records still stand today whose
averages have been yet to be touched. But he said
one line, and when he said it, the whole crowd erupted.
The hair on the back of my neck is standing up,
just like it did in that moment. It was the

(06:39):
last thing I heard, and everybody stood up in the stands,
and I was little. I was trying to see this
person come out on the field. I wanted so badly
to see this man who was getting this kind of response.
And it was at that moment that my mother looked
down at me and she reached down and she picked
me up, and she said, that's your father. Claudia Williams

(07:03):
lives in this sprawling Florida community that's popular among retirees.
The first resident and primary spokesperson for the community was
her father. Hi, I'm Ted Williams. If you've always dreamed
of a place in the sun, come to the outdoor
wonderland of Cittress County, Citress Hill on the Florida Gulf Coast,

(07:23):
Citress Hills. Fuck, let's get another one. I'm sick of this.
Claudia doesn't have any kids, so she's sort of in
this forever state of being. Ted's daughter. And it's hard
to have a close relationship if your father is Ted Williams.
She didn't really know him for much of his life,
and while she wanted to be close with your dad,

(07:44):
she was always trying to escape his shadow. Claudia left
home at sixteen, moving to Europe to finish high school.
Working as a nanny. She lived in France and then
Switzerland and then Germany, any place where nobody had heard
of Ted Williams. She could tot dogs in a gypsy circus.
Her father would offer her money, but she refused it.

(08:05):
But she would write her dad letters, and in them
she described being adrift, telling her dad she felt like
a lost athlete looking for a sport. Yeah, I mean,
you know, her dad was in a well intentioned way,
always trying to make up for his absence with grand gestures.

(08:25):
You know. Her dream was to go to Middlebury College
in Vermont, and she didn't get in. So Ted called
the governor of New Hampshire, who called somebody in Vermont
who pulled some strings, and she got a reconsidered acceptance
letter and she opened it up and she just was
weeping with rage because she knew what had happened, and

(08:47):
so she told them, no, this is how Claudia dealt
with a father that was never around, and when they
did spend time together it was pretty terrible. This was
her way of seeking some sort of emotion and financial
stability of her own, even if her father was always
reinserting himself. Claudia ended up going to Springfield College, where

(09:07):
no one even knew her father was Ted Williams until
one day she asked some guys who played baseball to
teach her how to throw. And she went to her friends,
who were all baseball players, and uh said, you have
to teach me how to throw a baseball and they
were like why, and she said, well, I don't want

(09:28):
to throw like a girl. My father won't like it,
and like what are you talking about. She's like, I
have to throw out the first pitch at a Red
Sox game. And they were like why and she said, well, um,
you know my father played for the Red Sox. Your
father's Ted Williams. You may be buried the lead a
little bit. You want to mention that she just never

(09:50):
ever wanted to get anything because of who her dad was.
For for so many years, he wasn't her dad. What
do you like this for our setting two out, the
time run and third, the winning round at first last
half of the ninth inning, and the four hit enough
today at the plate, Ed Williams Pashaw pitchers william Swayings,

(10:12):
there's a high drive going deep deep. It is oh,
hold on against the kipt up up all right, the
old span. Were you unhappy as a kid. It's people

(10:36):
who theorize he had an unhappy childhood and baseball was things,
and there were things of a person relation that bothered me.
And I think that happens in life and things that
I wish that could have been a little easier. Ted
Williams hated his childhood. He left home before high school graduation,

(10:56):
just like Claudia. He'd been raised by an erratic, an
absent mother. Ted's father was an alcoholic, and his mother
was obsessively focused on her work for the Salvation Army
to the point of neglect, leaving Ted and his brother
home for dozens of hours on end. Your dad wasn't
around that much. Your mom worked for the Salvation Army

(11:17):
and was kind of obsessed with that in her own way, right,
And there was too many people at home, and uh,
I mean, and I had a chance to do what
I wanted to do and so, but that playground was
important to me as far as he was concerned. His
family gave him nothing but a name, and as soon
as he grew old enough, he gave it back, changing

(11:38):
the Teddy on his birth certificate to a more respectable Theodore.
And the anger that dominated Ted's life started there. She
never saw him play a Major League baseball game, even
though she lived through his entire career. I mean, her
son was Ted Williams, and she never went to a game.
She died eleven months after he famously hit a home

(11:59):
run in his I know it bat one on one
to Williams. Everybody quiet now here at ben Wade Park,
after they gave him a standing ovation of two minutes,
knowing that this is probably his last time at back
one out nobody on last of the eighth inning, Jack
Fisher into, He's wind up, here's the pitch, william swings,
and there's a long drive to deep ride that home

(12:23):
run for and Ted flew home and paid for the funeral.
I mean, he was a dutiful son. He took care
of all the logistics, you know, he did it well.
And then he went through all her stuff and got
the family photographs and tore them up into pieces and
threw them away. And that was And it seems clear

(12:48):
he was just determined that he was never going to
be hurt by his family again. And for most of
the next forty one years he lived like an island.
Ted had this terrible lifelong feud with the press. One
time he actually spit on them. But what a lot
of people don't remember is that this feud started with

(13:11):
a question about his mom. A reporter wrote in a column,
what kind of a boy doesn't go home in the
winter to visit his mother. Most nights after games, Ted
would head back to the hotel where he lived. He'd
sit in his room and Thai fishing lures alone. For
Ted Williams, whose quest for fish and game has taken

(13:33):
him to the five Confidence and down the hundreds of
rivers and waterways, this is the one that always brings
him back. Ted hid in the hyper focus required by
baseball and by fishing, hiding from his own children, which
by this point we're very much in the picture. Ted's
first daughter, Bobby Joe, came into the world in the

(13:55):
middle of his career, and there are many stories of
Ted's anger and him taking that anger out on her.
I mean she was born in the middle of his
career and just was doomed from the beginning. I mean
Ted had these incredible rages, and whoever was near him

(14:15):
bore the brunt of that, and I mean sometimes it
was her. One time he spit a mouthful of food
in her face. Ted desperately wanted Bobby Joe to go
to college, but instead she got pregnant, became suicidal, and
entered a psych ward. Ted paid for her abortion. Bobby
Joe had trouble holding down a job and would struggle

(14:35):
with manic depression, and she would never really come to
know Ted's other children, her half siblings, Claudia and John Henry.
On the day his son, John Henry was born, Ted
Williams with salmon fishing in Canada. He'd been retired from
baseball for eight years and that day, like always, he
wrote in his fishing journal. He kept these detailed logs,

(14:57):
which are Claudia still has. I went through all of them, uh,
and they describe every single day he went fishing. He
talks about the water temperature which was seventy seventy two degrees,
which friends came up to fish. He never mentioned a
pregnant Dolores, and he never mentioned the boy. Claudia came
along when Ted was already fifty three years old, so

(15:20):
right from the start, she and her brother John Henry
knew they weren't going to have much time to learn
all the lessons they knew Ted had to teach them.
Whenever they'd ask questions about his childhood or his life,
he just scowl and grumble and say, read my book.
What an asshole? I mean, just an asshole. The marriage

(15:40):
between their mother and Ted didn't last long. He got
his freedom to fish every day, and she got the kids.
Claudia remembers growing up with a mother increasingly bitter over
her failed love affair. So all she and her brother
had was each other, and they're quested to code their
dad and maybe find themselves in the process. It's awful

(16:00):
easy to find something wrong with somebody and sometimes hard
to find something good. And I certainly am very very
sympathetic person and forgiving person. The kids coped in different ways.
John Henry would rescue straight cats and nurse them back
to health, even though they didn't see him that often.

(16:21):
They'd go visit Ted together, and when they did, John
Henry would do his best to try and protect Claudia
from Ted's rage. And the first time they ever went
down to Florida, he sort of briefed her on like,
all right, you know, this is not a vacation. We're
going into a war zone with a lunatic. Uh, So
you know, don't annoy him. Make sure you go to
the bathroom at the airport. Uh. She got a really

(16:42):
bad sunburn and they were scared that Ted was going
to be angry at them. So John Henry would just
feed her ice chips and ginger ale because she was
throwing up from the sun poisoning, and he would rub
vassaline on her shoulders and tell her not to cry.
I mean, you know, this was about as far away
from a celebrity childhood as you could imagine. They lived
on an isolated farm in Vermont. They didn't have a television.

(17:06):
They were isolated by both the environment and by the
fame of their father, and so they created their own world,
and in a very real way, they were the only
two who understood what it was like to live in it.
They were very very close. Claudia said it was pretty
clear that after four decades of living on an island

(17:30):
that Ted wanted to change. I mean, the problem is
is that, I mean, almost nobody knows how to repair
something that was so completely broken if you ask Claudia.
The change began when she graduated from college. Ted asked
her what she wanted for a graduation gift, and she
said time. Nobody thought Ted would agree to this as

(17:50):
a gift, but he did, and so Claudia, John Henry,
and Ted all flew together to San Diego and drove
up the Pacific coast. It felt could do over. They
asked him questions and he answered them, which was insane.
He asked them questions. It was funny, Caudio. It would
have always thought, you know what they say, alcoholics stopped

(18:12):
aging at the at the age they become an alcoholic.
She thinks that's true of famous people, and so that
her father was a twenty year old his entire life.
And she was like, it was funny because we were
around twenty and it was like we were all the same.
So many firsts happened on that trip. Claudia and John
Henry saw Ted's childhood home on this trip for the

(18:36):
first time. He never lost his temper or spun off
in a rage. He wasn't angry and they weren't scared.
While they were in San Francisco, they saw a fortune teller.
Ted was skeptical, but John Henry insisted and dragged his
father over. The fortune teller starts like reading Ted William's
palm and didn't recognize him. And and Ted has a

(19:02):
huge grin on his face, and when he's smiling, he
doesn't look like Ted Williams. And the fortune teller looked
up at Ted and said, you've got some heavy burdens
you're still carrying, and it's time to let them go
and call him. Was just like from that moment on,
Ted Williams tried to follow that advice. He really tried

(19:25):
to me, you're the duke. You're the Duke of baseball.
I know, John Wayne. I don't feel that at all.
You don't feel you were you were John Wayne of
basely know why? I know how many bad things I've
done I'm ashamed of and uh uh no, no, I
think that uh I did some pretty good things. But

(19:46):
what are you ashamed of? What do you tell me
what you're ashamed of? Right now? I can't tell you.
Christ I'll throw you in jail. I think there's very
few people that have really lived a lot of life
that can't say that that they didn't do some things
they wish, they regret and wish they had never done them.

(20:07):
Soon after that trip, and just as John Henry and
Claudia were repairing their relationship with their father, Ted started
getting sick. Absolutely greatest joys in my life, the greatest
happiness in my life, and the proudest moments of my life.
I think, what a shame you said, What a shame,
What a shame about that? About that wish you had

(20:27):
to spend more time with them when you were when
you were exactly right. I wish, but you know, here
I was playing baseball. Non Henry Williams, Ted's only son,
is active in helping his father carry out his vision
for his legacy. A bittersweet thing happened when Ted Williams
suffered two strokes in the mid nineties. Forced our relationship
to come very close, and it was probably the one

(20:50):
of the biggest blessings in disguise. Not only did it
force that, but it probably saved his life because attention
got brought to his health. John Henry and Claudia cared
for him every day. They sought out anything that might
buy him more time, no matter how experimental, unorthodox, or
just plain weird. You know, they were paying thirty dollars

(21:12):
a pill for vitamins. They were pumping oxygen rich air
into the room. They tried bepolitan acupuncture that got a
therapist to talk to him about his feelings. John Henry
bought a dialysis machine so Ted could get the treatment
he needed at night, and nothing worked. John Henry and
Ted would have epic fights, the sort of fights had

(21:33):
only happened after a lifetime of dealing with a raging father.
All right, now, that's it. So these fights didn't really
phasee John Henry and Claudia. John Henry tried to control
his father, and his father rebelled. It was around this
time that people started to think that John Henry might
have been going too far, that he was trying to

(21:54):
control his father. But Ted knew that John Henry needed
to take care of him. This obsessive of John Henry's
Ted knew was his fault. That was just part of
all the damage he'd done, and the guilt Ted carried
about the kind of father he'd been always slipped away
whenever he did something to help his kids. I mean,
so three things are happening at the same time. One

(22:17):
every day they feel more like a family too. He
is getting sicker every day. And three they are becoming
increasingly desperate to stop. Two and they're trying everything because
just as he figured out how to be a father
and they figured out how to be this weird family,

(22:38):
he was dying. And that's when John Henry read a
book about cryonics. Although imagine when you die, freezing your
brain and then being able to come back to life
their life after death. More and more people are being
cryogenically frozen here in hopes of one day getting a
second chance at life. And this is one of the

(23:00):
liquid nitrogen doers where the brains are stored. Yes, you
heard him right, human brains stored in these containers. Cryonics
is the preservation of brains and liquid nitrogen. And then
the goal is to hopefully revive that person. Revive a
person so that a lifetime of memories and experiences are
not forgotten. John Henry started to become increasingly obsessed with

(23:24):
the idea of cryonics. He made charts and decision trees.
He started plotting, making a plan for how he convinced
his dad to be cryogenically frozen. He knew he'd meet
Claudia to be a co petitioner. You know, she let
me go through the file they have filing cabinets. I mean,
I just went through Ted Williams stuff and it was

(23:46):
I mean, I read his fish, I read years of
fishing journals. And one of the things that was interesting
is that I found the folder with the initial brochure
that John Henry got from the brain freezing people. Al Core.
I think you could read the brochure and see where

(24:07):
it was going. You know, the things they were, the
immortality they were offering. I mean, it's not that they
thought Ted Williams was such a great American that he
deserved to live forever. It's that he had it took
so long for him to actually be their father that
they wanted more time. Ted didn't want to be frozen

(24:29):
at first. I mean, you know, his will famously said
that he wanted to be cremated and have his ashes
sprinkled at sea off the coast of Florida where the
water is very good. I remember we were talking one
time and she said, I just didn't want John Henry
to lose his father. He really still needed a father.
He needed to be able to prove himself in his

(24:53):
father's eyes, to become a man, and he hadn't done
that yet, and he needed more time. Four years past
between John Henry's purchasing books about cryogenics and requesting membership
documents from the company al Core, you know, and John
Henry kept circling around this thing. If you read it

(25:14):
and try to imagine yourself as having had this life
with this guy, suddenly it starts to make sense. I
mean that one of the lines I underlined the first
time I read it was, uh, they described the So
the book is by this guy named Robert Ettinger who's
a science fiction writer U and a professor although I
can't imagine of what. And the book is called The

(25:37):
Prospect of Immortality. And you know, some of the arguments
actually makes sense, like if you're gonna put him in
the ground, why not just put him in the freezer?
And if you're wrong, what does it really hurt? You know,
if you have the money, how does it really matter?
But the line that I remember reading where I was like, oh,
this hit John Henry hard and also gave him license

(25:57):
to do whatever he was about to do. But the
book describes children who bury their parents as murderers, and
you could just feel that festering. I mean, so John
Henry started bringing it up at dinner, trying to convince
his dad. You know, Ted is gruff on a good day. Finally,
one day just looked over at Caudia, like, are you

(26:18):
in on this too? Like, you know, am I getting
hot boxed by my kids about freezing my head? I
think in a lot of ways, Caudia agreed to freeze
Ted because it's what her brother wanted, and she remembered
that farm in Vermont and just what it was like,

(26:40):
and I think they are two of those people who
would always have each other's back. Claudia finally agreed she
didn't want John Henry to lose his father. She says
he needed his father so badly, and they all needed
more time together. Ted's help to climb more and more
every day. Eventually, after trying every other option, it came

(27:02):
to a point where only surgery would help extend Ted's life,
and Ted said, I just want to spend more time
with my kids, And you know, I've had a really
good life. If I die on the table. I die
on the table. Let's do it. And so the doctor
nodded and scheduled the surgery. This is all according to Claudia.

(27:24):
She said she began to cry and Ted's voice cracked
when he tried to comfort her. You know, she taught
him to do as risky as it was. Ted wanted
the surgery, and it was in that hospital room where
John Henry brought up crownics for the final time. He
knew we might not live through the procedure, and at
the end of his life, she says, he finally put

(27:45):
aside his own wishes for theirs. So it was a
conscious attempt to undo the cycle of pain. If it
means that much to you, kids, he told them, fine,
the more you learned about it, at a certain point,
this incomprehensible thing felt inevitable. I couldn't even really explain you.

(28:09):
I'm just like, oh, his head was cut off and
frozen a hundred and ten years ago, do you know
what I mean? Like that, like something was unleashed, that
was unstoppable. It's funny. I used to make a lot
of jokes about Ted's head that I and like in private.
I mean that like I won't ever make again. On
the News Hour tonight, a summary of today's news remembering

(28:32):
baseball legend Ted Williams, who died today. As baseball pauses
for the All Star break, it's also remembering one of
its greatest heroes. With the passing of Ted Williams this weekend,
Baseball's greatest hitter leaves a lasting impression. The news breaks
that he has died and has been frozen, and that

(28:52):
John Henry is behind the freezing. And you're John Henry
did not have a good reputation in Boston and was
sort of viewed as the spoiled weak son of the
powerful man. And you know, Claudia had been a ghost
because you and I are always talking about Ted Williams,

(29:13):
because we're fascinated the fact that, like, he froze his head, right,
Why did Ted Williams choose only to freeze his head?
You really don't believe he agreed to this at all.
According to everything that I've seen. There was a lot
of speculation after it happened, like how did they what
were they thinking? And the answer is, however, perversely you

(29:35):
might think it is they were thinking a lot. I mean,
he went through it all. I just think he forgot
that Ted Williams didn't belong to them. He belonged to
the public people of Boston didn't think Ted Williams was
his to freeze. That's what's really going on here. I
mean they're not wrong either, you know, it's just complicated.

(29:58):
The greatest hitter who ever lived ied in two thousand
two and is frozen at East Tacoma Drive in Scottsdale, Arizona.
If you only read the articles, you would have learned
that Ted Williams daughter Claudia, and her brother John Henry
supported cryonics, but that not everyone in the family agreed.
John Henry's older half sister, Bobby Joe, wanted her father

(30:20):
cremated and sued her siblings in the courts and fought them.
Claudia has spent considerable time looking for documents that would
prove she was in the hospital for the signing of
the informal contract. Other accounts of Ted's life strongly suggest,
without ever saying so directly, that she was lying about
being there. Claudia says she visited the hospital so many

(30:42):
times that all those trips ran together, but she remained steadfast,
whether fueled by anger, misunderstanding, jealousy or love. Nobody is unaffected,
nobody is clean. It's a mess. The same courses that
made Ted such a disengaged bad father for much of

(31:07):
his life were the forces that also made him this
weird kind of public property. Ted created all of these forces.
He created the broken children who fought each other in public.
He created the legend that people felt like they owned
that they felt like Claudia and John Henry had somehow besmirched.

(31:28):
He created Claudia and John Henry's desperation. This was all
written in stone before any of these kids were ever born.
I mean, this has been barreling towards this for three generations.
Ted Williams left behind so many unanswered questions that two
of his children went to the extreme edges of science

(31:50):
to find more time for them to be answered, while
his third child went to equal measures to stop them.
This all played out publicly for comedians and baseball fans
and biographers cronics was a joke or a disgrace, But
inside the Williams family, it was a profound act of love.

(32:17):
I went there for a couple of reasons. One I
went there to find out how this could have seemed
like the thing to do, Like I just wanted to know,
like how many generations of stuff had to pile up

(32:38):
until two people or three people sat down in a
room and said, you know what, here's what we should do,
because that's what's interesting to me. I mean, I think
almost certainly he agreed. We run out of time. Almost
always Ted had lived five more years, his head wouldn't

(32:59):
be frozen. And if Ted had been a father for
the first seventy years of his life, his head wouldn't
be frozen. And you know, like you know, this incomprehensible
thing actually starts to make sense. The Cost of These

(33:24):
Dreams is from I Heart Media, Graphic Audio and Right Thompson.
This series is produced by Goat Rodeo in and Right
and Megan Nadolski are the lead producers. This episode is
part of the eight part series The Cost of These Dreams.
Find other episodes wherever you get your podcasts. If you

(33:45):
want to dive in deeper to write Thompson's The Cost
of These Dreams, access the full audio book wherever you
get your audio books. Discover other works by Right Thompson,
including his latest book, Pappy Land, wherever books are sold
from the Goat Rodeo Team. Production assistants from Rebecca Sidel,
Isabel Kirby McGowan, Hamsashi Too, Maxwell Johnston and Kara Shillen.

(34:09):
Music by Ian N. Right Our Deep Thanks to Right, Thompson,
Caitlin Riley and John Weiss. Thanks for listening.