Doc Rivers Debut & Heat In Shambles

Chris Mannix and Rohan Nadkarni break down what Doc Rivers brings to the Bucks after his debut Monday night, the Miami Heat's seven game losing streak, what tough calls Mike Dunleavy Jr. needs to make with the Warriors coming up, and if Joel Embiid will fall below the sixty five games played minimum to qualify for MVP. Chris also talks to director Eric Drath about his new documentary about the the all-black Tennessee A&I Tigers, the first collegiate basketball team to win three consecutive national championship (airing on PBS this February)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Is the Crossover Sports illustrateds NBA show, bringing down the
latest news, bloomers and everything.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Here's your home, Chris, Welcome back to the Crossover NBA podcast.
I'm Rohanno. Can he joined today and always like Sports
Illustrated Senior writer Chris Mannix. Chris, a lot of topics
that we're going to get to on the show today,

(00:32):
but I've been in form for the second week in
a row. We have a special guest joining us later
in the joining you, I should say, later in the episode,
can you give us a little insight on it?

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Yes, fleshing out the podcast to multiple segments the last
couple of weeks. Last week we had Colin Sexton. If
you didn't hear that, encourage you to go back and.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Listen to that episode.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Also last week, a spirited debate between me and Jerry Ferrara,
my pal, the actor, huge Knicks fan. I went on
his Knick stream Enemy Territory and argued the debates whether
or not the Knicks fans let Jalen Brunson down with
their all star voting. This week, a little more civilized conversation.

(01:17):
Eric Drafth is a director and executive producer of the
new documentary The Dream Whisper, which follows doctor Dick Barnett,
who is an ex nick and more importantly, the captain
of the Tennessee A and I basketball team that won
three straight national titles between nineteen fifty seven and nineteen

(01:37):
fifty nine. Now, those teams were inducted into the Naismith
Basketball Hall of Fame back in twenty nineteen. This documentary
follows that journey, which was an arduous one getting the
Hall of Fame to recognize the accomplishments of that Tennessee A.

Speaker 4 (01:55):
And I team.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
That's a doc that will appear on PBS in February,
and I had a chance to screen it last week.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
It's terrific.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
So Eric Draft is going to join me later in
the show to talk about the making of that documentary.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Excited to listen to that interview. I, Yeah, you've really
been putting in all this work with the guests. I
don't know if you're trying to one up me every week.
I guess I'm gonna have to hit up Dwayne Wade
see if he wants to come back on the show.
I got it. Who else I gotta fight back? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, Dwayne? Could you discuss the problems of the Miami Heat.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Just I think he's got some Versace sunglasses that he's
hawking now. Would love to talk to him about that,
maybe get my hands out of parismon. But I digress
A lot to get to on the show today, Chris,
I want to start with something you kind of talked
about a little bit last week before the news was final.
You wrote about it this week, and that's Doc Rivers

(02:49):
officially taking over as the head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks.
Hired late last week, officially took a few days to
coach his first game, but coach last night in Denver,
with the losing to the Nuggets.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Doc already providing elite meme fodder by saying, I wouldn't
wish this on anyone planning on using that throughout the year. So, MANX,
I mean, let me just start with you, Like, I
think we were all expecting this. I mean, you were
on this right away, and I know you alluded to it.
It's gonna be a tough job no matter who takes over.

(03:23):
Halfway through the season here. Do you think this was
the right move from Milwaukee? Ultimately?

Speaker 4 (03:29):
I do.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
I understand the criticisms of Doc Rivers because the playoff
numbers speak for themselves. His postseason record since leaving Boston
is forty seven and forty seven.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
His teams in the.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Past have blown three one leads, They've blown three two leads.
I've got a stat in my column that says rivers
record in series where his team has won three games
is sixteen and thirty three. That's that's not good. In
game seven's overall he has he is six and ten. So,
you know, for a guy that's coached a number of

(04:07):
championship teams in LA and in Philadelphia since leaving the Celtics,
his teams have come up short.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
There's no question about that.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
All that being said, I think Doc is is more
than the numbers say he is. You know, people point
to him as being not a great ex as and
O's coach. Well, he's had a lot of top ten
defenses over the years.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
People point to.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
The record, but you can't overlook some of the historically
bad individual performances that some of the players on these
teams have had. And let's look at the most recent one.
I mean, does Doc Rivers deserve criticism for the Sixers
blowing a three to two lead against the Celtics. Absolutely,

(04:51):
does James Harden deserve more for his disappearing act? Does
Joel Embiid deserve more for his disappearing act? I mean,
these are two alpha's and Beat was the MVP last.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
Year, Harden an All Star perennial All Star.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
At some point you do have to, you know, put
the players in that blame pie chart that you're creating.
And look, the Milwaukee Bucks have always needed a veteran voice.
You know, in hindsight you look back and think, like,
even if Adrian Griffin was more prepared for this opportunity,

(05:29):
then it turns out he was putting a first year
head coach in charge of a team with like a
three year championship window was a big risk at best
and a catastrophic mistake at worst. So, you know, for
putting Doc Rivers in there, you're at least putting a
guy in the mix that has won a championship, that

(05:53):
has had a lot of regular season success, and most importantly,
has shown a knack for connecting with play. Now, there
have been some high profile disasters, I mean, the Chris
Paul ending in LA obviously, James Harden, the way it
ended with Harden in Philadelphia. But I mean the Celtics
teams all swore by him, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, two

(06:15):
volatile guys they swore by him during that time in Boston.
Made it work with Rajon Rondo, was mercurial as you get.
And you know, those Clippers teams had some talent Blake
Griffin most notably the Sixers. Joel Embiid had no problem
with Doc Rivers. So I think getting a guy that
knows how to manage a team that is filled with

(06:37):
star players, the top end star players, Giannis Lillard, Chris Middleton,
I think that's a win for Milwaukee. Now, does it
manifest itself in you know, a historic run to and
the regular season.

Speaker 4 (06:51):
And a steam rolling through the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (06:54):
Probably not, because this kind of situation is difficult for any.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
Coach to succeed him.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
But I've I think Doc Rivers is the right coach
now and he probably should have been the right coach
back when the Bucks were doing their hiring last spring.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Absolutely, you, I think you made the most important point,
which is his ability to connect with star players, even
him and Chris Paul, for example, on much better terms
now than when he left LA and you alluded to
this last week. I mean there was your reporting, other
reporting that there was friction between Yannis Damian Lillard and
Adrian Griffin. And I commend the Bucks for at least

(07:33):
acting quickly. You know that this is this is not
a scared move. It might be some people might read
it as desperate. I read it as aggressive. They understand,
you know, John Horst has said multiple times like when
you have Giannis, you're always on the clock. And I
commend them for being aggressive and not kind of sitting
back and letting it play out and realizing, hey, like

(07:55):
we're serious about winning a championship right now, we have
to take action. And what about like even Doc x's
and O's this criticism, there something that I think, you know,
at this point in his career, he's a better opportunity
opportunity than Adrian Griffin is filling out his staff. You've
already seen him go out and hire a couple of assistants.
It's easier to work for someone like Doc with his

(08:17):
cachet than we've seen Adrian Griffin. It kind of you know,
bummed heeds with Terry Stotts before the year, So I
think Doc helps them there it's definitely an aggressive movement.
I respect it. Yeah, to your point about the playoff failures,
if you go back and look at each one, I
think the Rockets one is maybe the most inexcusable, but uh,
there's context to every single one of those.

Speaker 4 (08:39):
That the Bubble one, the Bubble one was the worst.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
The Bubble one was tough, but even the Bubble one
was like they were in the bubble, like that was
a weird year, like whatever. Of course they should have
won it. They should have won that series. But does
Denver like win a game six on the road, like
if we don't have to go down that rabbit hole.
But there's a lot of context to each and everyone
those playoffs series. Don't get me started on Embiid and Harden,

(09:03):
which I got my feelings clear in the summer. I
thought it was hilarious that Bob Myers said he would
take Joel Embiid for a finals Game seven over nikolea Jokic.
I don't know if he was too busy during the
playoffs last year to see Joel Embid's last game seven.
I thought that was just a hilarious take. But I
like what the Bucks did here with Doc to me,

(09:25):
what's gonna be interesting is I think Doc is gonna
get there. He's gonna connect with Damon Gianness. That's what
he does best. He's gonna fill out the staff. My
big question is can he fix the defense? And you
mentioned I mean he you know, back in his Celtics
days when he had TIBs on the bench and Kevin Garnett,
they were putting together incredible defenses. He did it with

(09:45):
the Clippers when he had Kawhi and Paul George. He
did it when he had Joel Embiid as one of
the best rim protectors, if not the best room protector
in the league. But can he find a way to
engineer a defense with this Bucks team? I rememberut this
last week, like the worst defense we've seen in the
last fifteen years win a title was the Nuggets last
year and they were fifteenth in defense, so right in

(10:06):
the middle of the pack, and they had just an
offensive savant, like they had by far the best offensive
player in the league. The only other other team out
of the top ten was the Warriors, I believe in
twenty seventeen, and they were eleventh, and they had Steph
and Kde and you know, there are huge qualifiers to

(10:27):
non top ten defenses winning a championship. The Bucks are,
you know, in the twenties. Okay, they've not been good,
like you mentioned this, like Detroit is a team that's
putting up huge numbers on them. What's your kind of
your conference level in doc turning around the defense, because
I don't know if he's the horses for it.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
I don't know that he can turn around the defense.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
The question is can he get it into that top fifteen,
Like that's the big one.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
They're never going to be a top ten defense. Not
with his personnel.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
It's just not going to happen. And that's the operative
word there, personnel. I mean Adrian Griffin definitely had the
wrong approach early in the season, Like you don't bring
that Toronto blitzing pressure defense to a team that is,
you know, built around to effectively seven footers in Brook.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
Lopez and Johannisted to Compo.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
The Raptors had long rangy wing guys Pascal Siakam, Scottie Barnes, Ogiannanobi.

Speaker 4 (11:20):
The Bucks don't have those guys.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
You've got to build a defense around the personnel that
you had, and I thought that was Adrian Griffin's first
mistake with this roster. Doc will have his own ideas
and we'll see if those ideas can can improve them
moderately enough that they can stay in games that allow
their offense to just take over. I mean, look, this
is fundamentally a personnel issue. You know, they went from

(11:43):
having arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA in
Drew Holliday to having a string of guys that are
averaged to blow average at best. I mean, Damian Lillard
is in that category. Malik Beasley is in that category.
Pat Conaden is in that category. Category, Chris Middleton right
now is in that category. So you're not gonna have

(12:03):
guys that can stop the ball, you know, regularly at
the point of attack. So how do you build a
defense where you're at least funneling those those offensive players
into Giannis, into Brook Lopez into Bobby portis where you
can force guys to take tough, contested shots.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
That's gonna be on Doc, It's gonna be on Dave Yeger.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
As one of those assistants you're talking about that hopped
on to Doc Rivers bench. They don't again, they don't
have to get this team into the top ten because
this team will never ever ever be a top ten defense.

Speaker 4 (12:34):
They don't have the manpower for it.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
But can they get to that fifteen range where the
Nuggets were last year. If they can get into that spot,
I think they still have a chance to win a championship.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
You saw that game Monday against Denver.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
I mean, you know, you expect some bumps along the
way with Doc, but there were moments there where you know,
the Bucks got some stops.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
They looked good, they looked good, they look.

Speaker 4 (12:56):
Good, they look good.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
You know, kind of fell apart a little bit at
the end, but you know, there were reasons to be
optimistic that this team can find a way to become
an average defensive team. And as long as you set
the bar there and say average is where you need
to be, you know you can be hopeful for the
future for sure.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
And I think they are going to be active around
the deadline, uh to try to find that defensive upgrade good.
They don't have any yes a name I've heard multiple
times now. I don't know how they get him salary wise,
but I think it's available. As PJ. Tucker, who even
if he's lost his step, I do think can bring
them something.

Speaker 4 (13:37):
I wouldn't give him away with the Clippers. That's still
a guy that defends the player.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
You know, unless Tucker is, you know, holding a George
Gastanza like revolt, I wouldn't.

Speaker 4 (13:48):
I wouldn't move off him.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
I would not be surprised. And I you know, I
do think that, you know, I don't want to speak
for PJ. Tucker. Certainly, the sense I get is there's
probably some frustration there that he's not playing. Yeah, yeah,
so we'll see. I'm with you. I think the Clippers
should hold on to him. But the Slippers like.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
It's not like it's clearly not a distraction for them. Yeah,
they just ruly to Boston and just blitz the Celtics
on Saturday. So I wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
Yeah, I mean, you gotta you know, PG is getting
paid h and there's a pretty good chance when you
get to the playoffs, he's going to have a role.
Like you can't risk going into the postseason and entering
a series and maybe Zubac gets into some foul trouble
and you find out that Daniel Tye and Mason plum
Lee aren't as effective as PG. Tucker might be, right,

(14:39):
I think you've got to keep every every weapon in
your arsenal. If you're the LA Clippers going to the playoffs.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
I don't disagree. I don't disagree. Interest to see how
that one plays out. Let's move on to another team
in the Eastern Conference. Uh, they will not be making
a coaching change anytime soon, but if they were any
other team in the league, there might be some whispers
talking about the Miami Heats.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
Your Miami Heat.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
My Miami Heat. Unfortunately, losers of seven in a row,
they got blitzed, you know, talk about getting blitz They
got blitzed by the Suns last night. You know, Kevin Durant,
Devin Booker didn't even go off. The Heat was still
down twenty in that fourth quarter before like a classic
fake fourth quarter comeback. You know, we talked about them

(15:26):
a little bit last week. They made the Rosier trade.
I think we both loved that trade for Miami. It
made a lot of sense on a lot of levels.
I still do. But listen, this team has issues. They
are six games out of fourth place, Like they were
in conversation for a lot of this season before this
losing streak. Frankly for home court in the first round,
now they're firmly in the plane. You look at every

(15:47):
team ahead of them. Indiana upgraded, the Knicks have upgraded
the Calves. Shout out to the Cleveland Cavaliers. They beat
the Clippers last night. Evan Mobley finally coming back. They've
been playing great despite an unbelievable amount of injuries. So
you know, the heater looking at a real uphill climb here.
And Chris I wrote about this after the Finals run,

(16:07):
that they had to make a big move this summer.
They owed it. I think they owed it to Jimmy Butler.
When Jimmy Butler joined this team in twenty nineteen, the
heat were going nowhere. Okay, they signed Jimmy Butler, and
I think they've exceeded. I think if you gave pat
Riley truth serum. And I tried to get pat Riley

(16:28):
to admit it when I wrote about the jim and
I wrote the Jimmy Butler story in the Fall. I
tried to get pat Riley to admit that Jimmy's exceeded
expectations here, and He's like, anytime you start sign a
star player, your expectations go high. But for them to
make two finals be a one seed two seasons ago.
The three deep playoff runs, they have exceeded expectations because

(16:49):
all of a sudden in the playoffs, Jimmy Butler just
goes nuts. And I think that's covered up a lot
of flaws with this team. And I just don't think
Jimmy can cover up during the regular season anymore. And
as much as I like the Rosier trade, I think
him and Hero and the backcourt together is a disaster.
Rosier is not like an incredible defender. At the same time,
every game you're seeing teams just attack Tyler Hero, even

(17:14):
if like Rozier is guarding Jalen Brunson and Brunson's like,
I'm still gonna attack Hero instead. I think their backcourt
is too small. I think they don't have enough size,
and I think the sample size is big enough now
that Jimmy Butler Bam bam out of Bio and Tyler
Hero just aren't that good together. I don't think it's
a legitimate trio. I just think that they lack so

(17:38):
many things in the flaws of this roster that for
so long we're being kind of covered up by supposed
genius Jimmy's brilliance. It's not happening anymore, and I think
they're on the road to a major overall, if not
at the deadline, then this summer.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
Well, let's unpack this a couple of ways.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
You mentioned the Hero at a bio and Butler trio.
I think I've played fifteen games together this season. At
last check, they were five and ten in games that
those three have played.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
So there's something that's off with that group. You know.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
I've talked to NBA people that think the best move
is to bring Hero back to that second unit and
with Duncan Robinson into that starting lineup, because Duncan Robinson is,
you know, a strictly three point shooter or a rim shooter,
right like he's gonna shoot threes or he's going to
take shots at the rim. That's kind of the sort
of player you need playing opposite those guys. Not to

(18:38):
say Tyler heros a lesser player, but he's a different player.
So maybe putting Tyler Hero back in that sixth man
role will shake things up, because so far it just
isn't working with those three guys in the rotation. This
recent stretch, this seven game losing streak, I mean, the
offense has been terrible dead last in the NBA during

(19:01):
this seven game losing streak.

Speaker 4 (19:03):
In fact, the defense has been much better.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
The defense is twenty eighth in the NBA during this
seven game losing streak. So they're not getting it done
on either end of the floor. And look, the throwaway
line is often like, well, let's just get to let
them get to the playoffs, like they're a regular season team.
They got in last year through the play in they
made their run. All credit to Miami for doing what

(19:27):
they did last year, but you can't expect that to
be the rule, right, Like it has a better chance
of being the exception in situations like that, And nothing
we're seeing from Miami at this point makes you believe
that just because the calendar turns to April, then everything

(19:49):
is going to be right in Miami, that these guys
that maybe they don't get all that excited about regular
season games in January, they'll turn it up in April.
I believe there's nother gear to Jimmy Butler, but the
numbers are what the numbers are.

Speaker 4 (20:02):
Their top three don't play well together.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Their offense as of late has been awful, their defense
has fallen off a cliff look and again Terry Rogier
is shooting sub forty percent during his time in Miami.
I think that's gonna get better. He's gonna get more comfortable,
he's gonna get better. Uh, and that'll certainly help. But
you know, I just think there's you know, amongst Heat fans,
there's probably some there that believe, like I'll just let's

(20:28):
let's just get to like, you know, stay around five hundred,
get into that playoff mix. We can beat Philadelphia, we
can beat Milwaukee. And then we saw what we did
to Boston in the playoffs last year. Different situation, different years.
Boston is better.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
Certainly different Milwaukee.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
You know, my off Milwaukee's better yet, But we'll see
what happens with that group. So I don't think you
can count on that if you're Miami. My take is
is this is genuinely caused for concern in my where
the Heat are.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Right now, let me speak to that section of Heat
fans for a second, because I know this is going
to get aggregated by my guy Drew, who somehow listens
to every NBA podcast ever, the idea that the Heat
can get to the playoffs, and just like sprinkle, some
culture masala over the top of what's happening here and
make another run is absurd. Okay, And like you said,

(21:16):
all credit to this team for what they've done, but
last year was fun and incredible because it was a
massive outlier. There is a reason that does not happen
consistently in the NBA that eight seeds make the NBA Finals, okay,
and expecting that to happen again is ludicros. And you
can point to what they did in twenty twenty making

(21:37):
the finals in the bubble. Everyone was in the bubble.
I agree, but that was also a like once in
a lifetime, once in a multiple generation kind of crazy
event that had effects that we can't quantify. We don't know.
So if their options are like counting on another pandemic

(22:00):
or making the finals as an eight seat, that can't
be a strategy. Asking Jimmy Butler to play like prime
Michael Jordan in the playoffs every year can't be the strategy. Okay.
So the idea that they they just need to get
to the playoffs and then it's we can beat anybody,
I think it's ludicrous, Like Boston would would wipe the
floor with this current Heat team frankly, in the second

(22:22):
round or the first round exactly. And so I don't
buy the idea that they just need to get to
the playoffs, Like that's ludicrous. It's not gonna work this year.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
There's a lot of nuance to the deep runs they
made in twenty twenty and last year that you know, Frankly,
it's it's not a replicable strategy. It's just not And
you know you mentioned moving Hero to the bench. To me,
it's so hard to have a conversation about Hero because people,
especially mind me, get so charged up and you know,
the heat have kind of waffled from he's on the

(22:55):
block to we're only trading him for a top twenty
five guy, uh, to he's a cornerstone of what we're
going to do in the future. Their issue, I think
as long as they have Hero. I mean, you look
at their best lineups from the playoffs last year. You
know Hero didn't play okay, you know, obviously he was
injured in Gabe one, didn't come back like they cannot afford.

(23:17):
I think to have a Rosier Hero backcourt as a
long term solution. They're too small. Look at any contender
in the league. You can't have a backcourt that small
without one of them being basically like Damian Lillard or
Steph Curry, or the other one not being a great defender.
They have neither. They don't have like a e lead
offensive player or a great defender in the backcourt. And frankly,

(23:38):
I think they're gonna have to look long and hard
at basically evaluate every piece outside of Jimmy and Bam
this summer and if they make sense, and I think
Hero is their most realistic option at I don't think
they need to go Kevin Durant hunting with Tyler Hero
like if they had someone. Frankly, I've said this name before,
Jeremy Grant, Like they need wings, they need size like
that that's what they lack. And I think they're like

(24:01):
paralysis with Hero in which we're only trading him for
a top fifteen guy. I think that's getting misguided. And
I think they need to think long and hard about
building a team that fits around Jimmy, Butler and Bam
because I don't think this is it. And I think
the idea of just let us get to the playoffs
is I promise you, deep down, Eric Swilzer knows that's

(24:22):
not the way forward. What they did last year is
not the way forward.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah, and you look at the schedule they have coming up.
You know, this losing streak, this stretch could get worse.
I mean, you've got Sacramento on Wednesday at good luck
keeping up with the Kings offense. It's a gimmy against
Washington releast to should build. The Wizards have actually played
decent basketball.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
I don't look at any game as a gimmy for
the year.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah, Then they got the Clippers at home, Orlando at home,
San Antonio at home, and the Spurs will see what
they're playing like in early February, but they've actually playing
a little bit better. Then Boston is back at home,
and then the Heat go on a Dick's game road
trip that takes them to the end of the month
through Milwaukee, through Philadelphia, through New Orleans, through Denver, through Sacramento.

(25:08):
So you know, the way the heater, the heater gonna
have to do kind of a one to eighty with
how they're playing to avoid one of those like two
to ten stretches over these next twelve games.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, it's gonna be an interesting stretch for the Heat.
You know, there's some other stats under the hood. BAM's
shooting has fallen off a cliff, Jimmy Butler is finishing
at the rims turnovers. Uh, they have a lot of
concerns there, So I don't know how they turn it around.
But that's literally why they pay Spoe the very big

(25:39):
bucks is to figure all that out. Let's move on,
Chris to the Warriors and Lakers played kind of an
incredible game Saturday night. It almost felt a little bit
like a loser leaves town match, like both those teams
desperately needed that game. The Lakers pull it out. You know,

(26:04):
first of all, let me say, there's no like real
way to talk about this on a basketball podcast, Like
what the Warriors have gone through this year. I don't
know how they played a basketball game after losing an
assistant coach. Like it's so obviously they're bigger things at play,
but they're nineteen to twenty four. They're three games, two
and a half games, I believe out of the plane

(26:24):
right now. You know, I keep thinking Steph's gonna find
a way to pull this out. It just hasn't been
there as good as he's been. Is this done for them? Like,
is this season done. I'm like, are we are we
just past the Warriors at this point or you know,
do you give them a glimmer of hope?

Speaker 3 (26:39):
If you want to take an optimistic view of the Warriors,
you can say that their last two losses to Sacramento
and the Lakers came by a combined two points, so
they were right there at the end against both those teams.
But yeah, and I agree with you, like what they've
gone through on a personal level is hard to come

(27:01):
back from. When you've got an assistant that that passes away.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
I mean, that's that's that's a lot.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
I can't imagine what that team, with that organization has
been going through over the last week ten days. That
being said, the defense is atrocious, Like it's it's like
really atrocious, Like I look it up these ratings in January.
In January, Golden State's defensive rating has been the NBA's worst.

(27:31):
It is more than three points worse than twenty ninth
ranked Detroit Like it is three points worse than the
Detroit Pistons in the month of January. Draymond Green his
return has not solved Golden State's defensive problems, and if
they are playing this bad Defensively, they're not beating anybody

(27:52):
in the postseason.

Speaker 4 (27:53):
Like anybody they're not.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Making the postseason.

Speaker 4 (27:56):
I mean if yeah, I mean you have to post
the play in.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
They're not beating anybody in that mix. So look, I
think this group had its chance. We're more than halfway
through the season. It's not there. They don't defend the
COAMINGA Wiggins combination whenever they're on the floor is bad.
You know, Klay Thompson plays well in spurts. You know
Draymond is okay, Steph is still great offensively, but he

(28:18):
gets no help.

Speaker 4 (28:20):
If they want to give themselves.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
A shot to do something in this playoffs, they've got
to do something. They've got to shake things up. But
I know how hard that is if you're Mike dun
Leavy junior, a first year general manager. To be the
one that breaks up the dynasty is a lot to ask.
And I saw some people on ESPN Romona Shelburn talking
about how they're gonna have to consult Steph Curry on this.

(28:44):
That's fine, but ultimately you've got to do what's best
for this team and what's what gives this team the
best chance to maximize Steph Curry's final remaining good years,
and that could mean dealing Klay Thompson, who is a
non expiring contract. That could mean looking at options for

(29:04):
Draymond Green, Like, you've got to put all options on
the table if you're Golden State, because the number of
points you're giving up is absurd. I mean, Detroit is
a terrible defensive team. They have been three points better
in defensive rating. I can't underscore that point enough. Then
the Golden State Warriors in the month of January, it
is wild how bad they've been defensively.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
So you gotta do something. You gotta shake things up.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
Maybe that means going all in for somebody like Dejonte
Mary being willing to give up a Jonathan Kaminga. Maybe
that means something else. But if you let the deadline
pass and do nothing, you're admitting that not making the
playoffs this season is okay, because there's nothing that we've
seen through forty some odd games that makes you believe

(29:51):
this Golden State team can win.

Speaker 4 (29:53):
A playoff series.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
Nothing at this point, because even in the best case scenario,
they're going into the first round and they're going up
against the Nuggets, or they're going up against the Clippers, and.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
You got to be a real.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Bright eyed optimist for Golden State to believe they can
just flip a switch and turn it on and get
better in the postseas. It's kind of the same discussion
we had about Miami, right, Like, you know, they go, well, Miami,
they'll turn it on when they get to the playoffs. Well,
Golden State, they've got so many experienced guys, they'll.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
Turn it on when it gets to the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Well, you know, it didn't work last year really, when
you know they were a better team than they were
this year, they just squeaked by the Kings in the
first round. Then they got beat up by the Lakers
in the second round. So I don't buy into that theory.
I don't describe to that.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Theory at all. I think they've got to do something.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
They've got to make a bold move to give this
team any chance of finding postseason success.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
I think they have to make a bold move to
give themselves a chance to make the postseason. I mean, yeah,
look at the teams ahead of them, and there's no
no easy outs. There no one who can just say, oh,
that team's gonna fall out, that team's going to drop off.
Look at Memphis.

Speaker 4 (30:58):
Memphis is six and six, since this is John.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Mor three games behind the Warriors, which is absurd.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
It's they are one injury away from holding invincible style
tryouts on Beale Street.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
That's what banged up. And yet they're still finding ways
to win games.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yes, incredible job the Grizzlies have done this season. It's
you know, I don't know if you saw the the
latest David Fincher movie, The Killer, but the main character
is basically always repeating this one line. It's like reject empathy,
you know, no emotion. That's got to be Mike dunleevy.
He's got to have no emotion, no empathy. Everything has

(31:35):
to be on the table for this Warriors team, to
say the least at the deadline, whether that's Clay, whether
that's Draymond. I think everyone excepts Steph has to be
on the table, like you said, unless they just want
to accept it's not gonna happen this year. And you know,
but they don't. They don't even have their first round pick.
Their picks wants to go to the Blazers, so uh,

(31:56):
I don't know what they do here. I think that
pick is top four protected. I don't think it's just
lottery protected. So I don't think they're going to be
bad enough to get that pick back. They got to
figure something out. It's just, you know, it's really unbelievable
how quickly this has spiraled. And it just baffling to
me because Dunleavy said, after the Draymond entry, you know,

(32:17):
these next fifteen to twenty games will determine where we go.
We've seen enough, you know, we've seen enough. It's not
good enough. They got to do something serious.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
It's like that political reporter Dave Washerman, I've seen enough. Yeah,
I'm calling it when he calls the election, Like we've
seen enough, we say, we know exactly what they are.
You're right, Mike Dunleavy did say that after, you know,
after Draymond. Well here you are, like, you're you're awful defensively.
You spent the month of January being the worst defensive
team in the league by a country mile. The numbers

(32:51):
with Wiggins and Kaminga are not improving. You are what
your record of the numbers say you are? Like, if
you need any more evidence, I don't. I don't know
what to tell.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
You real quick. Chris before we get out of here,
I want to ask you about something that I think
popped back up. We talked about this at the start
of the season. Rachel Nichols, I think, did an interesting
video about it recently. So Joel Embiid misses the game
in Denver on Saturday, which I believe he was injured.
That was still a lame and I hope the NBA

(33:23):
is looking into it.

Speaker 4 (33:24):
Come on, of course looking into it.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
He missed the game against Portland too, so it's not
like he just sat out one game and came back against.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
I get that. I get that, but fifteen minutes before
the game, after not being on the injury report that
it was a you know, it was a little the
optics at the very least, we're not good the option.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
And look, I feel bad for Nuggets fans that probably
paid a premium for those tickets. Those are the people
I feel bad for it because you know, I'm sure
they were high on the resale market for sure. But
like it was just a couple of weeks earlier that
Joel Embiid forty one against Denver, and.

Speaker 4 (33:58):
It's not like that.

Speaker 3 (33:58):
I'm not I'm not such as his animosity either between yes,
and they seem to be like yeah, they seem to
reach other two of the like they are.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
I don't think he ducked jokicch or. I don't think
he ducks big games, but I think he was kind
of like Maxi's out, Harris is out? Do I really
need to play in this one?

Speaker 3 (34:17):
Come on, what's the explanation for Portland? We thought we
were gonna win. Well, it turns out they got stopped
in that game too.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
But Embiid is creeping up very close to kind of
this sixty five game cut off for postseason awards. Like,
I think he's probably the runaway MVP favorite. He should
be first team All NBA, but I think now he
can only afford to miss five more games, and like
you mentioned, he missed that next one is clearly there's

(34:45):
some stuff lingering here. The reason I never liked this
rule is because I think voters such as yourself always
took games played into consideration. I think Embiid maybe wins
MVP three years ago, Jokicic his first year if he
he plays more games. You know, bam Adebayo. The year
Marcus Smart was gifted the Defensive Player of the Year

(35:06):
by the Boston media mafia. You know, maybe wins, maybe
wins Defensive Player of the Year if he plays more games.
But so that's always been a factor. Like if you
look back on the season and Embiid doesn't, isn't all
NBA because he played in sixty three games, I think
it's gonna look ridiculous. Where are you on kind of
that rule right now? And do you think the NBA

(35:28):
is maybe starting to feel some of the heat.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
Well, definitely feeling the heat.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
And look, this was you know, this was a trial run,
right like this is the number they thought was going
to work. I don't think this number is etched in
stone for years to come. It wouldn't be surprised to
the NBA revisit that visit a lot of things this summer.
You know, you see the scoring numbers exploding.

Speaker 4 (35:48):
I think the NBA is.

Speaker 3 (35:49):
Going to take a long look at how they allow
teams to defend, you know, next summer. So the NBA
has always shown a willingness to be fluid and flexible
with with their rules, and I wouldn't be surprised, let's
say that to see next season the NBA drop that
number down to sixty, especially if we have a bunch
of guys that are in that sixty two to sixty

(36:13):
four range that just miss out on key awards that
voters would have made them eligible for, would have put
them in the mix because they deemed sixty two to
sixty three to be enough. I do think if you
play in the fifties, it's unless you have an absurd season,
it should be disqualified. I think if you're if the

(36:33):
number of games played begins with a five, you probably
shouldn't be MVP. You probably shouldn't be All NBA, at
least not if there's not competition that is comparable that's
played many games. So my mid season advice to the
NBA would be to make it a sixty game threshold
next year. I think if you missed twenty two games

(36:56):
and you don't get on an All NBA team, that's
that's not an NBA thing or a voter thing, that's
a you thing, whether it's because of legitimate injury or rest.
That's the number I would probably make as the cutoff.
But I do think it will get interesting, you know,
when we get to April and you have a bunch

(37:16):
of guys that are right there in that mix. How
the teams, balance, rest, back to backs, things like that.
That the traditional things they they they use, they employ,
and I think it's gonna get interesting because these guys
want to get those awards. Man, the money's real, Like
the money's real for making All NBA, the money's real
for winning MVP. So that's where I think it would

(37:37):
get interesting. But my take is, I don't think sixty
five games. Sixty five games to me is too high.
I would probably go to sixty and be comfortable with that.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
I think sixty is as a fair compromise. And to
your point, I think again, I think voters have kind
of had that rule, like an unofficial rule in some level.
I do think that likely I have.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
I've voted for All NBA for years now, and I think,
like I want to say, Lebron in a recent year,
it was last year, the year before he made an
All NBA team, and he was in the fifties.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
But he was probably third team, you know, third team.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
In mind, he was outstanding that year when when he
was when he was active. But for the most part,
guys plays in the fifties, they don't make my list,
and I do look, I think in years past, I
have to double check my own work. But like one
of the reasons Jokic has surpassed even Mbid on my
ballot has been games played like he's he has been

(38:34):
a durable guy during his MVP season, So.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
You know, vote voters take a lot into account. I look,
I know why the NB is doing it.

Speaker 3 (38:43):
They want to curb the you know, the the rest,
you know, the injury management, all that stuff. Load management
want to try to slow that down. Uh, But I
think they can and will tweak it this summer. I
do expect there to be some kind of change this
offseason because the NBA, if nothing else, they're not stuck

(39:03):
on their rules right like, they do make changes. They
do adapt to the times. I think they'll adapt to
this one as well.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
It's just gonna look so silly if we look back
on this season and Joel Embiid is not all NBA
because he played sixty four games.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
Would be that would it was not MVP for playing
sixty four games. Like right now, Joel Ebid's got MVP numbers.
They're better than what.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
They were, more more points per minute.

Speaker 4 (39:26):
I mean, it's it's crazy.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
So, I mean, like I haven't thought about it because
Tim Bontems hasn't hit me up with his latest struggle,
but you know, I mean, Joel Embid is certainly rising
on my MVP ballot. Nicole Jokic doing his thing, same reliable,
dominant offensive player that he's always been.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
I think it will get interesting.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
And you know, if it's at sixty four games, yeah,
watch out. That can be a lot of consternation in
the NBA.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
It will be very interesting to watch it play out.
All right, Chris, We're gonna let it go ahead to
your interview to close this week's episode, But you and
I will be back next week, all right.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
The Dream Whisper is a new documentary that spends the
better part of a decade following doctor Dick Barnett, the
captain of the Tennessee A and I basketball team that
won three straight national titles with nineteen fifty seven and
nineteen fifty nine, on Barnett's quest to get Tennessee A
and I into the Basketball Hall of Fame. The doc
will appear on PBS stations throughout February and be available

(40:38):
on the PBS app on February first. Eric Draft is
the director and executive producer of The Dream Whisper.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
And Eric.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
I watched I'm familiar with Dick's story and the mission
that he had, but I watched it with someone that.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
Was completely unfamiliar with it.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
And this person was watching with me, like throughout the documentary,
you know, found herself rooting for, you know, just to
play out the right way. Like it was kind of
like it is, He's still alive, his team going to
get in.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
Because it became like engrossing in that sense.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
So I encourage people, even if you know, if you
know the outcome of the documentary or the end results,
watch it with somebody that has no idea, because it
reels them in pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah. Thanks, Yeah, it's kind of like The Titanic. You
know what's going to happen at the Titanic. But it's
still a great movie. I'm not saying it's a great
movie like the Titanic. It's a great movie on its own.
But certainly when we started this long journey, and it
was eleven years in the filming and about twelve years

(41:50):
old together to make the film, you know, the odds
of getting into the Hall of Fame were stacked way
against us. I don't even know if they qualify at
that point to be on the consideration list. But you know,
it was Dick Barnett's determination to keep going. That's just infectious.

(42:12):
And we just said, you know, we're just gonna keep
going and see whatever happens. You know, if they didn't
get in, that would be the story too. But we
knew that the story itself based in fifty seven fifty
eight to fifty nine was interesting enough and powerful enough
to make a documentary on its own. I mean, this
is a team that, against all odds, this HBCU, historically

(42:36):
Black University and college, you know, played in the Integrated
Play and won three championships in a row. I mean,
nobody had repeated at that point, and nobody's repeated since
in basketball like that. So we knew we had a
story and the fact that it was lost in history
made it even more intriguing. And then contemporary following Dick

(43:01):
Barnett trying to get the world to pay attention and
to listen and to remember, this team seem like a
perfect fit.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
I think a lot of people are familiar with the
story of Texas Western, which was obviously immortalized in Hollywood
in Gloria Road. This story Tennessee A and I preceded
Texas Western. I mean they went through you know a lot,
you know during that time, you know, the Jim Crow
era in the US.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
I know that a lot of.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Haus flowed from George Willis's column. My friend formerly with
the New York Post, just kind of walk me through
the genesis of all this and why you believe this
was worth the investment. I mean, I said, the top
better part of ten years, more than ten years obviously
to put this, this whole documentary together.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Well, you know, I share the same admiration for George
as you as you do. I mean, George is a
top notch journalist. And when his article came out in
the Post about Dick Barnett and you know, you know,
trying to get some attention to his team. It was
actually sent to me by the executive producer, Ed Peskwitz,

(44:10):
who is a lifelong basketball fan, just an incredible guy,
and you know, said, wouldn't this be a great story?
He had seen the documentary that I did for ESPN,
one of the thirty for thirties called Renee on Renee Richards,
and he reached out to me out of the blue
and said, you know, would this be a good story,
and I said, yeah, this would be a great story.

(44:31):
I just didn't know that it would be such a
long journey. So when we started filming, you know, the
odds were against us, like I said, but but we
just kept going, you know, And obviously when you're doing
a project like this, it's not like eleven years of
every day working on it. I produced and directed a
bunch of films in between the time we started and

(44:52):
the time we finished. But this always was calling my name.
This was always getting back to us, and Dick and
I had this little funny thing. He called me up
and he goes TSU, which, man, get on it. We're
going We're going to the garden to see Clyde Fraser
and Spike Lee, or we're going to see how Sharpton,
or we're going here to Tennessee State to to to

(45:14):
try to get the president to do something. So I
knew what he called, it's time to fire up the
cameras and and pack my bags.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
And that just spoke to Dick Barnett's passion for you
know this. You know a lot of the people he
talked to. I don't want to use the word ambush
because it has a negative connotation, but like he just
walked right up to Spike Lee and said, we got
to make something happen, walked up to Clyde in the
garden footage that is on the documentary, as you mentioned,
going to Tennessee State, and you know, you know, forcing

(45:45):
these meetings to get people involved. Al Sharpen forcing him
to to get involved.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
Why did you find him to be so passionate about
this for so long?

Speaker 1 (45:57):
You know, it's just in his DNA. It's the same
way that he practiced. I mean, you know, talk about
a guy who just would you know, shoot and shoot
and shoot, you know Senator Bradley talks about it. I mean,
he's just got this persistence and determination unlike anyone that
I've ever seen. And similar to the way he played

(46:18):
because you know, he was on the great seventy and
seventy three Knicks teams that won championships. He wasn't a
big talker. He led by how he played, and he
led this movie by what he did, not what he said. Obviously,
he you know, would say, you know certain things, But
I really learned a lot making this film with him

(46:38):
and seeing him just you know, just go up to
everyone and one of the things that I kind of
realized watching the film recently, because you know, you make
these films and you just watch them, and you watch
them for for for all kinds of reasons. You know,
after they won their championships, you know, they didn't have
the national acclaim that a team today might have. They

(46:59):
didn't go the White House. They didn't you know, they
weren't on the boxes, the cheerio boxes. They went back
to Nashville because that's where the school was, and they
were in the sit ins. They participated in the protest.
They were going for equal rights for black people at
the time, so they went to sit ins in at

(47:21):
the lunch counters where they sat in the white seat
only area. They were spit on, people threw milkshakes on them.
They were humiliated, but they stood there and took it
with grace and dignity. And what I realized is that
that must have had such an impact on him that

(47:42):
now a guy like Spike Lee blowing him off doesn't
deter him. He keeps going. And you know, like I
learned a lot, like yeah, that's how you may get
things done. You don't react and get all emotional and
cry like a baby. You say Okay, not this place,
but I'm going to go to the next.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Why do you think it took as long as it
did to get this team into the Hall of Fame.
I have to imagine that that you believed at different
points that it would happen before twenty nineteen, that you know,
this is already made story for the Hall of Fame.
You know, a pioneering all black team.

Speaker 4 (48:22):
Winning three straight national championships.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
There are I don't want to say lesser figures, but
there are less qualified I would say, Hall of Fame
inductees than this Tennessee A and I team.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
Why do you think it took as long as it did.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
I don't think that they had the political and pr
machine behind them, first of all.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Kind of shame that you need that though, right, Like,
I mean, the story should speak for it, if you like.
It's kind of like that old saying, like, you got
one job, Hall of Fame, Like you know, your one
job is to identify stories of this caliber, and you know,
execute what you're supposed to execute.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, And I mean even when it was brought to
their attention that there was such an oversight, it still
took all of these years to finally get them in
and it I think one of the reasons is that,
you know, it wasn't like commercially you know, opportunistic for
them to go in. It was it was you know,

(49:20):
there weren't big dollars behind this. There wasn't some big,
you know, campaign that could go behind this. This was
one man's journey to make the world hear it, and
we thought that that was something worth telling, you know.
So that's that's exactly you know why this is got done.
It's because of Dick Barnett. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
And I don't know if there's a villain in a
story like this, but I gotta tell you, Eric, the
president of the Hall of Fame, has a little villain
in him.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
It seems like early he gets the you you kind
of look at.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Him, and you you squint a little bit at him,
you get a little angry at him for some of
his explanations as why this this team didn't get in
the Hall of Fame. And one of the things that
was notable to me and they got. I encourage everybody
to watch it from start to finish. At the very end,
when I'm blanking his name, you obviously know.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
What I'm blanking. In the top of my head.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
But he he walks over to Dick Barnett shortly after
Dick gets there, and Dick, sitting in a cushion charity
sort of pats it whatever you need and you kind
of let the anything. He walks away, and Dick looks
like he's just sort of staring at him, and you.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
Let the shot linger for a minute.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
And because you let it linger for a minute, it
got people like me and people have watched it thinking,
like you know, you can almost if you were writing
like a subtext to it, it would just be like,
you know, and he looked if you you look long
and hard at the man that's been keeping him out, Like,
how did you view that moment?

Speaker 4 (50:50):
Am I misinterpreting that?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Not at all? In fact, it could have been a
lot worse with the footage we had. It wasn't you
know the footage speaks for itself. It could have actually
told much worse volumes. Uh. We actually went to some
lengths to try to not bury anybody. But the individual
you're talking about was just the spokesperson and the figurehead

(51:16):
for the institution, So he was communicating what the institution
was telling him. He wasn't you know in a vacuum here.
You know, one thing that a lot of people don't
realize is that the Hall of Fame and the NBA
are basically the same. You know, the board members are
all part of the NBA. The NBA funds a lot

(51:39):
of the Hall of Fame, and the NBA also owns
most of the footage that's on the Hall of Fame.
So Dick Barnett was never a commercially bankable type of star.
He was the guy that stood up and called a
spade a spade, and that's what you got to love
about him, you know, and that's probably why it probably

(52:02):
worked against him also and against the team.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
You had an interview in there with David Stern, who
of course passed away in twenty twenty. You say the
NBA has a powerful influence over the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
What was Stern's position on all this?

Speaker 3 (52:19):
I mean, you would think is the commissioner of the NBA,
and one of the more heavy handed commissioners you're going
to find during his days, he could have pushed it
through if you really wanted to. What was your reaction
or your takeaways from speaking to David Stern?

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Well, well, I think our timing in that regard was
not the best. I mean, I think David Stern was
an incredible, incredible commissioner, credible man. He did so much
for the sport of basketball. And he even says his
interview sometimes we get it wrong and we need to
go back and fix things. I mean, he says it,

(52:54):
and I believe that he would have had he lived longer.
But not long after the interview he passed away, unfortunately,
And I think I don't think the new commissioner saw
this and said no. I just think it didn't get
to his desk in time. So I think that it
was just a confluence of timing and bad timing for

(53:17):
the team's message to get to the highest office. So
I don't think it was intentional at that point. I
think Stern would have done something about it had he could.
But you know, again, it is a democratic process. So
even though the NBA has a very heavy hand in
the institution of the Hall of Fame, there are votes

(53:37):
that are required. Now they've created new commission you know,
subcommittees for schools like this that might have been overlooked
and they might not go in the traditional way. But
I don't believe that that that the that the current
commissioner was trying to keep the team out. You know.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
One of things I thought was was interesting.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Was, you know, it's one thing to be unknown or
kept out of the Basketball Hall of Fame, a national,
global institution. When you went back to you know, to
Tennessee and we're interviewing kids on campus, and I think
some faculty members even on campus, like they didn't know
anything about.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
This team you know that was there.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
I mean, how how surprised were you to find out that,
even you know, in his own backyard that you know,
those championship teams just didn't resonate.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Yeah, I mean, I don't you know, it's hard to
point fingers. But for whatever reason, the school completely dropped
the ball on this, and they even admitted Teresa Phillips,
who's an extraordinary individual. She played she was the athletic director.
She says it in the film, somehow we missed the
ball here, you know, and there was it was almost like,

(54:52):
you know, there was no effort until we started, and
even when we started, it was hard to get the
school to take it's serious. They you know, as you'll
see in the film. And I don't want to give
away the whole film, but I think it's in the
totality it's still worth watching. But you know, he goes
to the school and they send him to the Greek organizations.
I mean, I don't know how powerful the greekies are

(55:16):
in your college, you know, but if you had them.

Speaker 5 (55:18):
But in our school, we were we were fighting for
an existence. So setting sending something to the Greek organizations
was almost sending it, you know, uh, to to you know,
to you know nowhere. So so again, you know, the
school didn't really have the wherewithal to to to promote it.
You know, they did show up when they finally got

(55:39):
to the Hall of Fame, some of these, you know,
But but the school definitely carries some responsibility for letting
this story kind of fade off and for you know,
not communicating to the students today how important this story
is not just for Tennessee, but for all HBCUs and
for America to know what happened when we were integrating,

(56:03):
when these you know, championships were being played, and under
what circumstances they were being played.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
This was, as we've noted, a long process with for
Dick Barnett, I'm sure a lot of disappointments along the
way as you were kind of immersed in this, did
you ever feel like he was ready to give up?

Speaker 1 (56:26):
If he was, he never showed that he was. I
probably was ready to give up more than he was,
you know, but I just said, let's keep going. I mean,
he this guy has just got the determination like no other,
you know, even today. And what brings us to this
interview and should not be forgotten is that there's an

(56:49):
effort now to get the team, the last remaining living
players of the team to the White House finally, to
you know, for their finally, their moment in the sun.
I mean, think about it. Now, every team that wins
a national championship, the next day they're reporting the Biden administration,
the Trump administration, whatever administration is calling that team for

(57:13):
their moment at the highest office in our great country.
This team did it three times, got nothing, and now
we're needing to just fight for them to even acknowledge
it again. So we're hoping that right now, over fifty
congress people signed a letter that the Biden administration will

(57:34):
take a look at this and they'll do something about it.
And I have to tell you another thing that's been
really frustrating is that the Vice President's office started a
whole commission for HBCUs and the chair of that commission
is the President of TSU. And still nothing has happened.

(57:55):
For over two years. We've impoored the President of TSU
say something, do something. Nothing has happened. So I call
this out because it's important to call it out, and
Dick Barnett would call it out. Sometimes it's not the
most pretty and friendly, but it needs to be called
attention to. These guys deserve their moment. They're going to

(58:18):
come in wheelchairs if it happens, they're going to come
on crutches, they'll come on gurdy as if they have to,
but they will be there to recognize what they did,
not for them, but for the country.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
Eighty seven years old, is he still calling you to
chat about this stuff?

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Calls me all the time. Yes, that's what he says.
That's my call. Yeah. In fact, I saw him very
recently and you know he's getting old. And this is
a story in a film about aging too. Not only
does the story agent time, but the individuals in Agent Time,
and a lot of people passed away in the making

(58:57):
of this film. Anthony Mason Clendon's widow, some of the
old coaches, coached John Thompson who speaks in it, Commissioner Stern,
you know how many people need to die now before
this is finally recognized at the White House. So you know,
I don't know what's after the White House, but Dick

(59:19):
will probably find something.

Speaker 4 (59:22):
Well.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
I think it's certainly worth that recognition that honored that
distinction to get a White House visit for those last
remaining members of that team.

Speaker 4 (59:33):
Eric, it's a terrific documentary.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
The Dream Whisper is available on PBS stations throughout February,
available on the PBS app on February First.

Speaker 4 (59:41):
Terrific stuff, Eric, and I appreciate your time.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Thank you so much. Chris gra