August 20, 2021 • 48 mins
On the Friday edition, Howard Beck welcomes legendary photographer George Kalinsky, who will be inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame next month. Kalinsky, the official photographer for Madison Square Garden since 1966, shares stories from his time with Knicks legend Willis Reed, as well as Frank Sinatra, Muhammad Ali and others.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
What Up. It's the Crossover Pod Friday edition. Howard Beck,
senior writer for Sports Illustrated, my guest today. Well, you
could call him one of the greatest shooters in NBA history,
though he's never scored a point. He is George Kolinski,
the longtime official photographer for the Knicks and Madison Square Garden.
And when I say long time, I mean since nineteen
(00:22):
sixties six. And George has shot some of the most
iconic photos you've seen, even if you didn't know he
was the name behind those images. And here's a partial
list of some of the people that he's shot over
the decades. Muhammad, Alie, Frank Sinatra. And he's got phenomenal
personal stories about both those guys, the Rolling Stones, the Pope,
Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan's, Bill Russell, Elton, John John Lennon,
(00:43):
Bill Clinton, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Jimmy Hendrix, Beyonce, you too,
Elvis Pressley. Uh. He's had an incredible career and that career,
the sports part of it, or the basketball part of it,
now being rewarded in a few weeks. George's work is
already in the Basketball Hall of Fame. In Springfield, and
now George Kolinski himself will be heading to Springfield. He
(01:04):
is one of the recipients of the Kirk Gouty Media
Award this year. He'll receive that honor on September tenth
during induction weekend. The others getting the Gaudy Award this year,
of course, Mike Gorman, the longtime Celtics broadcaster, and Mel Greenberg,
longtime sportswriter and a pioneer and covering the women's game.
So those two and George all going in under the
Gaudy Award banner. Um George's work, He's been featured in
(01:27):
Times Square, in the Basketball Hall of Fame, the Baseball
Hall of Fame, Museum of Modern Art, the Library of
Congress added his photography in two thousand nineteen. So he's
an absolute legend in the world of photography, including sports photography.
And if you just google his name, George Kolinsky, and
say Bill Russell, you will see one of the most
amazing shots you've ever seen of Bill Russell. Google him
(01:49):
George Kolinski and Willis Read and you'll get a couple
of the most iconic shots of Willis Read in both
nineteen seventy and seventy three. He's got a bunch of
great stories to share. He's a phenomen a person to
Before we get to the interview, a quick reminder, please rate, review,
and subscribe to The Crossover on your favorite podcast platform.
If you have feedback, hit me on Twitter at Howard Beck. Okay,
(02:12):
my interview with the legendary George Kolinski is coming up next,
so stick around. This is the Crossover and NBA show
hosted by Sports Illustrated. It's Chris Mannox and Howard Back.
It's a whole new level for you and me. Chris,
this relationship, I can subscribe for the best weekly NBA content.
(02:33):
These two are capable of. What does that mean? Could
be the best duo ever. I don't see how you
can beat that. Here they are, Chris Mannox and Howard Back,
now very pleased to be joined by a soon to
be Hall of famer, already a Hall of Fame person,
George Klinsky. George, how are you, my friend? How how
(02:54):
are you? It's nice to be with you. It's great
to be with you two. It's been too long since
I've seen you, because is I have not been to
the garden in at least a year and a half,
and I think you haven't been there much in that
time either, So nice that we could at least connect
via zoom and nicely we can connect on this occasion.
We're just a few weeks out now from you going
(03:16):
into the Nay Smith Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield.
How are you feeling about this honor? I assume you
are still busily working, busily working on your acceptance speech. Um,
how are you feeling it just about this moment, about
this honor? What's it going to mean to you? It's
a mixed feeling. Uh. You know, there's so many terrible
(03:38):
things going on in the world, and um, we should
be figuring out ways to help Will be a better place.
But I also have the feeling of being excited and
exhilarated because I was I never thought I would I
ever would be elected to the UH, to the Basketball
(04:02):
Hall of Fame, the the Nay Smith Memorial Basketball Hall
of Fame. To me, it was like a shrine and
growing growing up when it was in its early, premature,
early UH stages, I watched it grow and then to
see UH and to hear and to get a phone
(04:24):
call from John to leave it, and I am going
to be elected into the Hall of Fame with the
John h with the Kirk Gauity Media Award. I can't
tell you how great that feels. For anybody who's all
over basketball to get into the Basketball Hall of Fame.
Is it's just fabulous. No, it's it's it's it's incredible
(04:48):
and well deserved. I remember talking to Andy Bernstein, of course,
a long time photographer for the NBA and the Lakers,
a couple of years ago, when he was about to
go in with the Kirk Gallity Award, and UM, for
both of you, it's it's it's a recognition of of
of a lifetime of work, but of all of the
icons that you have photographed, all the Hall of Famers themselves,
you now in a way get to join them. So
(05:09):
I want to ask you about um, this year's Hall
of Fame class. Let's start there, because Chris Bosh is
going in, Paul Pierce, Chris Webber, Ben Wallace, UM. All
of those guys, of course have passed through the Garden
many times during your time as the Garden photographer. Do
you have any particular memories of any of those four,
whether it's a moment or even a photo and image
(05:32):
of of one of those four guys. You know, I
remember Chris Bosh somehow more than the others because I
took an interest in what he had to say. And Um,
I thought that he he was rather Uh. I thought
(05:52):
he was rather sort of intellectual in terms of understanding
what are what is, what's what's really going on in
the world and are he was very up front. Uh,
he knew how to speak. I loved his creativity in
relation to being together with with the fans. Uh. He
(06:14):
he knew that a good relationship with the fans was important.
And UM, and he did his best to be He
was funny. He was he was he was in a way,
he was like an entertainer. Um. Some of the other
players each have their I have my memory of our
(06:37):
UM Boston. When anybody wins on a wood from Boston.
I noticed that everybody from Boston, it seems, comes to
join and be part of it. And Um, this year
you have UM, a very popular Boston UH player who
(07:01):
little by little became the voice of the Celtics. Um.
Actually the voice of the Celtics is going to be inducted. Uh.
I think that's really wonderful. But um, I just feel
(07:22):
I feel thrilled that I'm part of this, and um
I have an opportunity to congratulate people like Mike Green
who won year would before me, and the horror of
Fame who have selected a certain amount of people to
represent the game. I love that somehow, when you talk
(07:42):
about the game, it refers more to basketball, let's say,
and to baseball for those of you who liked the game.
Somehow is very basketball for me. Now, maybe it's because
where I grew up, uh, and I love baseball. Actually
how to try with the boats bo Orioles and I
I was one of the skills that I had in
(08:05):
my athletic career. And I always felt that it was important,
um to have something that you could really do and
enjoy and be good at. And I felt that somewhere
in the cht field that was gonna be me. And
I had to try out with the both Orioles many
years ago, and they actually offered me a contract to play.
(08:29):
And I said to myself, um self, you're not going
to really be a great book player. You're not gonna
be making mail, you're not gonna be really mazed. But
I think I can be a great artist, and somehow
by being at the training camp for the Orios actually
more solidified my feeling about being in the world of
(08:53):
art in some way. And it turned out that the
photography was the way I went through I was a cartoonist,
I was I did paintings, I did um many things
in the in the world of art. But and I
spoke to so many people. It's amazing the amount of
people who enjoy talking about the art world and who
(09:14):
are in the art world. So um Anyway, I felt
that that was the place for me and that I
wasn't going to be a great wool player. So they
did me a favor by letting me play. And then
I saw I measured myself and said, Kolinski, you're not
gonna be Mickey Man or really amazing. Well, this is
how it goes, right, So if you're you know your
(09:37):
if you love sports the way we both do. At
a certain point, I realized I'm not going to be
a wide receiver for the San Francisco forty Niners, which
was my my boyhood team. That was the team I
really hardest forward. So yeah, we we find other ways
into the sports world. You got the job at the
Garden in nineteen sixties six. What do you remember about
(09:57):
how that came about? Did you have any inkling at
the time that this is something that could almost literally
last a lifetime and take you to so many amazing places? Um?
Literally and figuratively. Um. How did how did the start
of this come about? Um? I my career actually started
in nineteen six six and I I ran into Howard
(10:21):
coach Allen Muhammad Ali, who was Cassius Clay at the
time in Miami where I was. I was interviewing for
a job as a sports cartoonist or political cartoonist for
the Miami Herald, and I had to think about that twice. Anyway,
the Miami Hello wanted to hire me and as a
(10:43):
sports cartoonist and political cartoonist. And I was just debating
with me with my family, if this is something we
want to do by coming down to Miami. Uh living
in Miami, which is not a bad place of um. Anyway,
(11:04):
I found Cassius Clay into the gym and Angelo Dundee
stopped me. He said, you can't come in unless you
pay a dollar. And I had this camera around my
shoulder which I only are basically only took for pictures
that we were part of my family, and Uh, I said,
it just came out of my mouth. I said, Angelo,
(11:27):
I'm the photographer of Madison Square Garden. And Angelo said, okay, comedian,
come on in. So that's how I got into the gym.
And then I had this my role ead my one
camera that I had, which was a pretty good camera.
I went to Pratt and I needed a good camera
to photograph my designs that I was making a Pratt
(11:48):
and so I knew how to work the camera pretty well,
and so I took pictures of Cassius Clay working out.
I thanked Angelo for letting me in to have It's
wonderful opportunity to photograph people who um famous. I never
felt I never saw a famous I never photographed a
famous person before. So I I left the gym I
(12:15):
got into and I drove to where our our martel
was and I saw that Muhammed Ali. I keep it's
easy to say Muhammad Ali because that's where he is,
but in those days he was Cassius Clay. I heard
on the news of Cassius Clay. Uh was doing something newsworthy.
(12:36):
So I brought my role of film that I shot
in the gym to the Miami the photography department, and
they put one of the pictures over the wire service
and the next day one of my pictures is all
over the world. So this is the nineteen six and
six Um, I I thought, I thought to myself as itself,
(12:57):
this is something you can do and that you can
have fun at. And I certainly uh went out of
pretty quickly because the next day, by having one of
my pictures all over the world was I was a
big deal. So I went to John Condon, who was
the POI director of Madison Square Garden Boxing and he said,
if you can come to me with one role of
(13:19):
the film, I have the hoods but to hire you.
And um, that's exactly what he said. He said, if
you have the fts, butter come to me with win
roll the film, I have thet hire you. And that's
how I became the photographer Madison Square Garden, the New
York Next of Rangers and eventually, uh two million pictures later.
(13:40):
I feel so spilled and honored to be in the
Hall of Fame. It's it's absolutely incredible. And some of
your most iconic photos, I mean you mentioned cashus claim
Mohammed Aldi that's a becomes a recurring theme for you, right.
I mean, he's somebody who shot many times. Did you
tell me about you know, how you got to know
him as both a object and and just one to
(14:02):
one over the years. What kind of relationship do you
think you built with him? When I had that first
uh photo shoot so to speak, uh in in the
in the gym where in the fifth sty gym where
Mohammed Ali was. Um, that was that was important to
me in relation to having Mohammed Ali as my friend
(14:24):
because when I was it wasn't so fast as as
well as I mentioned that before, Uh really was something
where I looked in my camera, I saw these eyes. Uh.
It sort of excited me that I can take someone
famous and actually see him in my camera. And UM,
(14:45):
I thought that that was very important, um of time
to get to know catch his Clay and Mohammed Aubrey.
So uh we you just started a relationship of friendship
that uh just kept going on because I always had
(15:07):
assignments to photograph Cassius Clay, Mohammed Ali and it was
a real great opportunity of privilege to be uh near
him to talk with him. And as time went on,
you start saying that he has issues, I have issues.
We all have issues, and that we can start talking
(15:28):
to each other uh as friends. And somehow we clicked
and there was a chemistry that I had with Mohammed
and uh and he loved art and he loved Leeway Nieman.
Would we would like to see somewhere new Leewy Niemen
and we would we would working here or there? And
(15:50):
um ah Leeway was always asking, uh, are we about boxing?
And a we would ask Leroy painting and uh he
did lee. I did so many paintings and mainly sketches
actually uh for us and we I was really interested
as an artist to start off with. And but Ali
(16:15):
was really interested in in the in the world of art,
and he knew more about I was a pretty good artist.
And he I still uh, I still like to look
at his pictures that he did have clowns and children
and airplane mostly airplanes, and he loved he loved kids.
He loved children and he uh he did so much
(16:36):
for making kids happy that we're around him. I remember,
are are we coming to the garden And he's carrying
this big suitcase and I'm saying that must be heavy.
What's in there? And he said, ah, he said, they're
cords the kids to sign. I can sign my autograph
to the kids, he said, but this is like a trunk.
(16:59):
Even you, this has got to be heavy. He said.
Whatever I can do for the kids, I'm happy and
I want to do it. And are the kids are
the important people in this world. These are the people
we have to be good too, and and teach and
and and learn and and grow up with. That's fantastic.
(17:19):
You know. With Ali there's this obvious charisma about him,
right He's one of the greatest fighters and one of
the greatest athletes of all time. But he also just
has this this this thing, this this uh this aura
about him, a spark. Do you find, George, that in
the people that you've shot over the years, whether it's athletes,
whether it's all the years of shooting Patrick Ewing, or
when Michael Jordan comes through the garden, when Kobe comes
(17:40):
through the garden, when Lebron comes through the garden, or
whether it's Elton John or Mick Jagger, whoever it may be,
are are the best subjects for you as photographer, People who,
in addition to their talent, just have that other special something.
And is that is that something definable? Is it's something
you can key in on and say, yeah, like this
(18:01):
is somebody that I really want to shoot because there's
this spark and I and I can see it through
my viewfinder. I kind of get an interesting word. Um,
I had an exhibit a few years ago, and I'm
going to answer you a question. I had an exhibit
a few years ago at the at the Museum in
(18:25):
New York and the National Circle Society, and UM, I
sort of looked at my work when after they mounted
it on the World and I said, I said to myself,
you took all these pictures of icons, and I mean
I was like, I had goost acoustics, goose bumps, and
(18:47):
I was for the first time. It was only a
couple of years ago, but for the first time I
looked at my work, even if it was mad in
a book or in the world. Uh, in a in
a place where I had Picasso on one side of
the wall and my pictures were around the other. And
I actually that was a good feeling to have Picasso
(19:09):
on the other side of Um. Maybe someday I'll make
it so we'll be on the same side. Of the wall.
But um, I said, you took all those iconic pictures
and it it just really it hit me that this was, um,
this was important, that the ultimate picture of Sinatra or
(19:34):
ali uh elkan sewan uh proparaiety. I seem to have
taken the favorite photo of so many people and that's
the most important. UM. That's taking the most important or
the most likely picture of somebody. To me is the
(19:57):
ultimate um, the ultimate story and the ultimate um. It's
like achievements, right, Like that's the ultimate for a photographer.
You capture the moment that everybody else talks about. To
capture the moment of a person and to and to uh,
(20:22):
to have that person tell me that that was a
favorite photograph that anyone ever took of them, That to
me is the ultimate our compliment. I'm sorry, I couldn't
think of a word compliment, but that's the ultimate compliment
to a photographer. And I was, I really I looked
and I said, it took a lot of pictures, but
(20:43):
a lot of pictures don't mean that much. Uh. It
has to do with quality. And there's so many pictures
that I have taken that turned out to be iconic pictures,
like Willis reed working on the court. Um. It was
iconic because it was a moment, a moment that was
very special. And not only was it a moment that
(21:05):
was special, it was a photograph that was UH was
judged by its artistic merit, And the artistic merit of
a picture is really the ultimate dream for a photographer
to be able to UH to execute. I remember getting
a phone from her phone call from Nancy Uh and
(21:27):
Tina sin Archer, and Tina said, and her father had
just passed away only a few days before, and she
called me, and Tina had tears in her eyes, and
I wasn't sure what was going to happen, but she said, Um,
of all the pictures that have ever been I just
(21:49):
she said, joy to have to tell you this, where
of all the pictures that have been taking over my father,
no picture had the um the aura, no picture had
the essence of how you captured him. I love my father.
I think in this song that you took the picture
of him. UH went for my baby. Uh three o'clock
(22:14):
in the morning. Um, she said, I was that person
and he was singing to her, and I just think
that No, it's just I just wanted you to know
that that's a picture that was more important to us
as a family as a photograph than any other picture
that was taking a franction my father Frank Sinatra. That's amazing?
(22:36):
Is that? So there's like you have several incredible shots
of Frank Sinatra. Um, one of which, as I understand,
I think you had conceptualized where he's basically like a
boxer in the ring. Is it that one or is it? What?
Is it more? The the up close one on his
on his tight on his face as as he's singing.
Because you have several of him, I belief of Sinatra.
(22:58):
I there there are a lot, and um, I can
I have a lot of pictures this sin notre and
to think back that I can come up with the
uh pictures that the family likes. It's Frank like thank
every every Christmas, Bank said I need, I need some
pictures for Christmas gifts, and so I made him a
(23:22):
few prints and whatever he asked for, and whatever Frank
asked for, Frank gets so um he he uh he
signed pictures for as gifts for people at Christmas time.
So um. The one picture that he really loved, whereas
one with a cigarette in his hand and his family
(23:47):
loved that picture too, and there was an audi again
we were went to art. But there was an odd
element to that picture that was so important. And when
you take a picture, when you take a picture of
some somebody important, um, or a picture that is a
(24:08):
really great shot and may or may not be important,
but it's a great shot, you don't know necessarily how
good the picture is going to be until you see
it developed. And like some people ask me, do you know, uh,
did you know that in your camera you had a
great shot? And I said no, I didn't know until
(24:29):
I developed it. And then you can tell because some
pictures like WILLI is working on the court to mention
a picture I've keep talking about because it was such
an important moment at Madison's We're gone, um, and for
that matter, in the world of basketball, Um, the aura
(24:49):
of Willis working on the court was not understood fully
for maybe five or ten years later. And then ten
years after Will it is worked on the court and
the Nixon winning and basketball is becoming more important. Um.
You just see that that that picture is emerging. And
(25:13):
I think it was the first picture that was in
the Hall of Fame as a as a photograph of
being the will of fame. I'm not sure, but I
think I'm right. Um, But that picture became more famous
as time went on. And that's something that you uh,
you don't know in our picture like Paparatti where he's
(25:34):
going like this and in the young core and he
just is in a typical Paparatti uh um movement movement
and and and also the hands are have such meeting
the hands of Elvis. The hands are uh uh um.
(26:01):
So many entertainers and and uh and sports people who
at the end you win the you win the Stanley
Cup and your your arms are up like Messier has
his arms up. That's the ultimate picture that you're looking for.
But then you can come up with a situation like
Bill Russell, who I took a photograph of him rebounding,
(26:24):
and that simple rebounding picture maybe my favorite picture in
sports and certainly in basketball that I ever thought it was.
To me, it was already it was. It was esthetically beautiful,
and he looked he looked like Bill Russell in this picture.
(26:45):
It looked like he was have somebody sculpture him in
this position. In that position would be uh he would
be known forever and it turns out that that turned
out to be Bill Russell's favorite photograph is Uh. He
said that anybody, anybody who wants to use a picture
(27:05):
of him as best he can, he's gonna find to
make it be that that's the photograph that that is
being used. This is the shot if I'm looking at
the right one, George, It's it's in black and white.
And Russell only has one leg planted because the other
foot is in the air as high as the basketball itself.
Is that the shot. It's an amazing situation that his
(27:27):
foot went higher than his head. It's incredible. I was
talking to somebody today about that, and somebody who was
interested in and talking about the picture any in person.
The person only knew that it was a good shot.
And I feel it was my best shot that I
ever took in in basketball, if not sports. But it's
(27:49):
it's like it's it's it's a carving, it's a sculpture.
It's uh. It has a beginning of middle and end.
It has all the elements that you wanted that you
won in a in a picture. And uh, this is
also arguably the greatest win certainly went into two or
three greatest players of all time. The wrestle actually was
(28:12):
my favorite player of triend and I uh, I loved
the fact that he was able to bring the ball up.
He was a point guard. There was a center, and
he was he just had movements that no one else had. George.
When you think about I mean, man, you you have
(28:32):
shot pretty much every Hall of Famer, every every All Star,
every great player, every player big and small, um for
you know, a half century. So it might be hard
to narrow down. But were there specific guys, whether the
Knicks obviously the team you shot the most, or anybody
else in the league, were there certain guys who you
most enjoyed shooting, having that vantage point, you know, from courtside,
(28:55):
from the baseline, and that when they came to the
garden or again if it maybe it was one of
the next that you thought, like, this is just somebody
I really enjoy tracking and capturing. Well, the exciting players
are like the exciting entertainers. Sometimes these players are like
Lebron James and uh Kobe Michael Jordan's These these players,
(29:18):
uh have our our charisma to them that uh that
makes it makes you want to take to take a
picture of them, That makes you want to capture this charisma.
I look at Elton John as an example of an
entertainer with the glasses and his cape, and I see
Elvis is with his cape and he got the cape
(29:40):
and blute Richard the a cape idea. And then you
go to Michael Jordans coming in and you can't get
enough of Michael Uh. I got photographed Michael uh and
his slam dunk contest, which was the first slam dunk
contest that was his first year he played. And I
think I got where it is what I would consider
(30:04):
really good shots, great shots of Michael and I I just, um,
I just feel that um, as time goes on and
you get enough iconic shots in our kind of places
and excitment for iconic moments, that these pictures are going
(30:27):
to be more valuable, more more um more interesting, which
reminds me of Sinatra telling me once we went out
to dinner once and actually we went to that we
went at to dinner more than once, but uh we
we were talking about are an event called the main event,
(30:52):
and Sinatra always Sinatra said I want to tell you something.
This he told me at our lunch and he said,
I want to tell you something, he said, I'm gonna
tell you something there you know you never heard before,
and I've kept and I very rarely have talked to
anybody about this, but I want your I want to
share it with you, he said. When I was when
(31:13):
I was young, my dream was when I was a teenager,
my dream was to be the heavyweight champion of the world. Um.
I wanted because there's nothing nothing in the world that
has a bigger aura, a bigger uh platform, a bigger
stage than the heavyweight than winning the heavyweight championship of
(31:36):
the world. In Madison's were Goden, you need all of
those pieces you need Madison's were Goden, you need the
factor that's a heavyweight championship. That's my dream. Well, I
couldn't be that, and I did the best I could.
And that's why I came uh to to various people,
including yourself, to find out about what they thought about
(31:57):
the main event and I for me and I wanted
the feeling of not only the main event of U
boxing champion, but I wanted the feeling or having that
man having the heavyweights, the aura of the heavyweight championship
fright um uh and and having it at the Gorden,
(32:21):
so not just said the next best thing was to
have it as a as a concert at the Gorden.
And I want I want the the ceiling of the garden,
which is so spectacular. I want that to be in
in my picture of the advertising for it. I want
my I want that to be to have the same
(32:44):
quality and the same importance as the ceiling in the
Muhammad Ali Joe Fraser Fright. So I did some, I said,
I made it. So I made uh some skeed sister
Frank and he he he loved the idea of being
(33:06):
under the ceiling and a tuxedo, white tuxedo with I'm sorry,
black tuxedo with a white scar and Frank looked dazzling
and it was it was an opportunity to uh photographed
Frank the way he wanted to be photographed, and he
wanted to be pleased. And that's some of the artwork
(33:28):
that we shared. But again he he he, he did
everything he could to physically and artistically have something that
would be very similar to the Muhammad Ali Joe Fasia poster.
When the when they when the day came of the
for the main event, um event Sinatra quote me, he said,
(33:55):
I said, He said, this is this is He used
the word marvel. It's around he said this morbl us
and uh, I was very happy and thrilled about that,
and he said, I hope it works. And the the
advan of Sinatra holding up his hands like this and
with the tuxedo with the garden ceiling on the top,
(34:18):
the adman internationally and and papers all over the world
and as well as uh the United States, and he
has uh, he has great We had great shots of
of of the ceiling of Sinatra with his arms up
(34:39):
and it was it was it was sinatric dream come true.
Very cool that that is possibly one of the coolest
stories that could possibly be told. Are certainly at least
from a from a photographer's point of view, that's incredible. Um.
You've also been part of Witness too and photographed UM
(35:02):
three really important moments of course in New York sports history,
the Nicks Championship, the six Mets Championship, the ninety four Rangers,
which you were alluding to earlier. UM, of those three,
is there a favorite? You know? I some of the
people ask me what is my favorite photograph? And the
(35:22):
truth of the matter is is that I have had
the privilege to photograph so many important things that I
and to come out with so many important pictures, especially
the iconic ones, that it's hard to say. Um. I
mean Willis working on the court was a moment that
(35:43):
was special, uh special in the history of the garden. Um.
I think Jesse Rascoe on his knees. I went to
Mets one the World Series against Bulliston. Um that was
that was I was really big to me in terms
of artistic it was he's on his knees, his hands
(36:04):
are up. I sometimes think that I can do a
whole book on just people with their hands up and
arms raised. I mean the Pope, which I thought was
a great picture that I took Ailso has his arms
raised as he's holding the girl, and um, it was
it was just Um. I think when it comes down
(36:25):
to push, push and shove, I think the I think
the the Ali Frasier fight, which arguably was the greatest
weating avainable time, was was the event that I thought
it was the best. A couple more before I let
you go, because I want to talk about Willis read
for a minute, because you mentioned him walking on the court.
(36:46):
Of course, we're talking about the nineteen seventies NBA Finals
Lakers Knicks Game seven. Willis had been injured in Game
five and missed all of game six. Um, so there's
the moment of him coming back. Of course, this is
just one of the This is a legendary moment in
sports history period. Um. And I think there's some backstory
there too, because I know you know, uh, well, let's
(37:08):
read very well. Uh give me a sense of what
that that moment was for you and what you knew
going into that. I had lunch with Willis that that
that day, and I told Willis, and I really meant this.
I said, well, it's you. I'm not sure I want
(37:29):
you to play because, um, you just you can hurt
yourself for life. And um he said, he's gonna play.
And he's gonna play because only maybe only once in
your lifetime. Then you've got an opportunity to win a championship.
(37:49):
And tonight is an opportunity for me to win a championship.
And I'm gonna play. If I have to spoil out
of my hands and knees, I'm coming out there to play.
And he he was emphatic about that, and it was
so important that Willis. Um, Willis play for him. But
(38:12):
it was also an important moment, probably the most exciting
moment on the court of Madison Square. Go ahead and
ever that it was a pass that I kept running
into the dressing movement to see how Willis was doing.
He was getting dressed here. All of New York wanted
to know. I was a big question. All of New
York wanted to know if Willis was going to play.
(38:34):
And I'm saying, it's not a question. They don't know
how hurting, how he's hurt him. But Willis did play.
He won the championship for the next He inspired the
next and motivated the next two UH to uh to win,
to score the first two baskets UH. Jerry West was
mad at at Jerry West was mad at will Chamberlain
(38:57):
because Chamberlain only wanted me to go into the dressing
to find out how Willis is doing. And and we said,
we're never gonna win a game if we're worried about
the players and how the player feels. So um West
still tells me that the worst moment he ever had
on the court was that moment where Willis. Everybody was
(39:22):
worried about Willis. Um and his including his team, and
that's and that's not what winning is. Winning is when
you're determined to beat whoever you're playing, and uh, don't
worry about, um, anything else but but winning. So Willis's
name became. Uh, it's almost like in the dictionary, you're
(39:46):
pulling a Willis reed if you're coming back from an injury.
And UM, absolutely true, by the way, and we all
refer to that now that is the go to reference point,
and it's it's interesting. So if all these iconic shots
that we've talked about of yours, the one that sticks
out to me, George, my personal favorite is not even
(40:07):
on the court. I think it's actually the uh, the
seventy three next team. Everybody with the number one up, Um,
Willis Reid, Phil Jackson's in that shot, while Frasier, Bill
Bradley and uh, and of course Phil Jackson's got this
funny gap toothed grin. There's just something that's the absolute
joy of of that photo. Um, that to me is
always leapt out. It's just it just resonates emotionally. Um,
(40:31):
that one's a really a really fun shot as well. Um,
And a lot of your work is of course already
in the basketball Hall of Fame. So in some ways
your work preceded you to Springfield by by several years.
I imagine. I don't know how many of your shots
are there, but I know that that there they have
quite a collection. You know. You mentioned Bill Bradley, and
I spoke to Bradley actually today and um be blood
(40:55):
the fifth game in seventy four, Willis, we're still hobbling terribly,
and Bradley told me that you concentrate with your camera
on on Bradley, on me, because I'm gonna be doing
(41:17):
something that I never did before. I'm gonna be jumping
in joy with showing a lot of emotion on Willis's back,
and Willis is gonna just have to put up with
it because that's the we're gonna win tonight. I'm gonna
show emotion and feelings which I hardly ever do, and
I'm gonna have I'm gonna show the world that Bill
(41:40):
Bradley can really smile, can really get exhilarated, can really
get excited in a game, and that um you just watch,
You'll see, You'll see what's gonna happen. And at the
end of the game, with three seconds ago, Bradley just
breaks away from everybody else, jimps Son Willis has the
(42:03):
emotion in his face with his mouth open and his
eyes and um, and that became a really important shot, uh,
for for Bradley, but it also was it was earlier,
and it was the earlier part of the evening where
the picture you liked Bill Bradley with with the four
(42:26):
other Nick players with with holding up their thinking we're
number one, And that was a great shot. Well sir,
But if I had to pick on which is the
best shot, I couldn't because they both show emotion, they
both have feelings, and they both have everything you want
in a picture. Absolutely well said before let you go
so um because of COVID. Of course, none of us
(42:48):
were in the NBA arenas for a long stretch last year,
and because of COVID concerns, I know you set out
most or maybe all of this past season. The Knicks
are finally good again, um, which I'm sure is more
enjoyed wable for you. Um. You know, regardless, you can
get great photos of winning teams or losing teams, but
the gardens more fun when the Nicks are great. Um.
Do you have thoughts on on how you're gonna handle
(43:10):
the upcoming season. What's it been like for you to
have to have that detachment for this this period of
time after so many years of so many events that
you've been you know, present for Well, obviously, UM, I'm
not the youngest person anymore, and I still enjoy working out,
(43:32):
and I enjoy photographing, and I think I can still
take as my photographs are still are good, and but
it's things are changing, and um, I would like to
continue as as long as I take good pictures. My
(43:52):
objective and photographing a game naturally is to get good photographs,
and I feel that, um that's what my job is.
I can still do it. And as long as the
the Garden allows me to take the photographs and gives
me the privilege to be able to photograph, uh, these
(44:14):
great entertainers and athletes, I'm going to do it. You know.
It's really um oh, I have to think about what
I'm going to do when I don't take pictures anymore.
And in some ways, I look at what I do
and I say, you know, you can take pictures as
(44:34):
long as you want. Nobody's going to stop you from
taking pictures because this is what you enjoy this is
what you do, well, this is what you like to do.
I've taken two million pictures. Um as always room for more,
I guess, but um I will. I will go along
(44:55):
with whatever is best for uh. For my relationship shift
with the Garden and I. The Garden has been, you know,
the Garden has been a place where I have been
able to photograph on the world's biggest stage, on the
world's most famous stage, and the world's most um known arena.
(45:20):
And this is a responsibility that this can't be taken lightly.
The fact that I'm the Garden photographer means that I
have to make sure that my pictures are better than
anyone else's and that that that may may seem odd
that I say that, but I have them. I have
(45:41):
the drive in me that once I say to myself,
I hope there's four hundred photographers, I hope they had
six hundred photographers here. So I'm really driven to take
the best pictures I can possibly take, and I want
to continue to do that as long as I can.
And I'm really as I said, the Garden is u
(46:04):
is a place where you want to take the best pictures,
to do the best you can. For example, when Lebron
James or the Pope or Paparatti or Sinatra um or
back in their Peggy fleming. These people know that they
(46:24):
have to uh, they have to take the best. Um.
These people know that they have to um perform better
than anywhere else. They have to perform at a higher
level than any other arena in the world. Madison Square
Garden is the show place of arenas matter of and
it's it's it's the place where it's the ultimate place
(46:47):
where you can perform. And it doesn't matter if you
are boxing or basketball or hockey. UM. I think of
it as as I'm thrilled that I'm able to take
all these pictures. I have the privilege to take all
these pictures. But um, I I just feel that um,
(47:08):
just like the players have they sort of sweat. Lebon
James sweats before he goes on the court. He's nervous.
The Pope sweats and not just sweating, um, you know
even how at least swaded and uh. So this is
the uh, this is the hurdle that I said for myself,
this is the this is the the the the gauge
(47:34):
that I have said to that I have to take
pictures that are better than just anybody else's. Yeah, now
you've you've got to live up to the legends that
you're shooting as there they have the pressure on them.
That's a perform of the Garden. I guess for you,
so so do you. But you have lived up to
that over and over through decades of sporting events and
(47:56):
concerts and everything else. Um, you're the best, George. I'm
so happy to see you get this honor with the
Kirk Gaddy Award at the Hall of Fame. Congratulations again,
enjoy that moment in a few weeks in Springfield. Great
to see you and and uh and hope to see
you again at the Garden soon when we both get
back there. I would thank you very much. It's always
been great to be with you and to talk with you,
(48:18):
and I appreciate you having me on your show. Thank you. Okay,
that's it for today's show. My thanks again to George Kolinski,
thank you Sammy Steinlit for getting us connected today, Thanks
to our producer Shelby Royston, and of course thank you
all for listening. Remember you can hear Chris Mannox and
(48:38):
me every Tuesday on the Crossover with all the latest
NBA Chatter and on Friday's It's Me and a Guest.
Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Crossover
wherever you get your podcasts, and hit me with all
your feedback on Twitter at Howard Beck
What Up. It's the Crossover Pod Friday edition. Howard Beck,
senior writer for Sports Illustrated, my guest today. Well, you
could call him one of the greatest shooters in NBA history,
though he's never scored a point. He is George Kolinski,
the longtime official photographer for the Knicks and Madison Square Garden.
And when I say long time, I mean since nineteen
(00:22):
sixties six. And George has shot some of the most
iconic photos you've seen, even if you didn't know he
was the name behind those images. And here's a partial
list of some of the people that he's shot over
the decades. Muhammad, Alie, Frank Sinatra. And he's got phenomenal
personal stories about both those guys, the Rolling Stones, the Pope,
Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan's, Bill Russell, Elton, John John Lennon,
(00:43):
Bill Clinton, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Jimmy Hendrix, Beyonce, you too,
Elvis Pressley. Uh. He's had an incredible career and that career,
the sports part of it, or the basketball part of it,
now being rewarded in a few weeks. George's work is
already in the Basketball Hall of Fame. In Springfield, and
now George Kolinski himself will be heading to Springfield. He
(01:04):
is one of the recipients of the Kirk Gouty Media
Award this year. He'll receive that honor on September tenth
during induction weekend. The others getting the Gaudy Award this year,
of course, Mike Gorman, the longtime Celtics broadcaster, and Mel Greenberg,
longtime sportswriter and a pioneer and covering the women's game.
So those two and George all going in under the
Gaudy Award banner. Um George's work, He's been featured in
(01:27):
Times Square, in the Basketball Hall of Fame, the Baseball
Hall of Fame, Museum of Modern Art, the Library of
Congress added his photography in two thousand nineteen. So he's
an absolute legend in the world of photography, including sports photography.
And if you just google his name, George Kolinsky, and
say Bill Russell, you will see one of the most
amazing shots you've ever seen of Bill Russell. Google him
(01:49):
George Kolinski and Willis Read and you'll get a couple
of the most iconic shots of Willis Read in both
nineteen seventy and seventy three. He's got a bunch of
great stories to share. He's a phenomen a person to
Before we get to the interview, a quick reminder, please rate, review,
and subscribe to The Crossover on your favorite podcast platform.
If you have feedback, hit me on Twitter at Howard Beck. Okay,
(02:12):
my interview with the legendary George Kolinski is coming up next,
so stick around. This is the Crossover and NBA show
hosted by Sports Illustrated. It's Chris Mannox and Howard Back.
It's a whole new level for you and me. Chris,
this relationship, I can subscribe for the best weekly NBA content.
(02:33):
These two are capable of. What does that mean? Could
be the best duo ever. I don't see how you
can beat that. Here they are, Chris Mannox and Howard Back,
now very pleased to be joined by a soon to
be Hall of famer, already a Hall of Fame person,
George Klinsky. George, how are you, my friend? How how
(02:54):
are you? It's nice to be with you. It's great
to be with you two. It's been too long since
I've seen you, because is I have not been to
the garden in at least a year and a half,
and I think you haven't been there much in that
time either, So nice that we could at least connect
via zoom and nicely we can connect on this occasion.
We're just a few weeks out now from you going
(03:16):
into the Nay Smith Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield.
How are you feeling about this honor? I assume you
are still busily working, busily working on your acceptance speech. Um,
how are you feeling it just about this moment, about
this honor? What's it going to mean to you? It's
a mixed feeling. Uh. You know, there's so many terrible
(03:38):
things going on in the world, and um, we should
be figuring out ways to help Will be a better place.
But I also have the feeling of being excited and
exhilarated because I was I never thought I would I
ever would be elected to the UH, to the Basketball
(04:02):
Hall of Fame, the the Nay Smith Memorial Basketball Hall
of Fame. To me, it was like a shrine and
growing growing up when it was in its early, premature,
early UH stages, I watched it grow and then to
see UH and to hear and to get a phone
(04:24):
call from John to leave it, and I am going
to be elected into the Hall of Fame with the
John h with the Kirk Gauity Media Award. I can't
tell you how great that feels. For anybody who's all
over basketball to get into the Basketball Hall of Fame.
Is it's just fabulous. No, it's it's it's it's incredible
(04:48):
and well deserved. I remember talking to Andy Bernstein, of course,
a long time photographer for the NBA and the Lakers,
a couple of years ago, when he was about to
go in with the Kirk Gallity Award, and UM, for
both of you, it's it's it's a recognition of of
of a lifetime of work, but of all of the
icons that you have photographed, all the Hall of Famers themselves,
you now in a way get to join them. So
(05:09):
I want to ask you about um, this year's Hall
of Fame class. Let's start there, because Chris Bosh is
going in, Paul Pierce, Chris Webber, Ben Wallace, UM. All
of those guys, of course have passed through the Garden
many times during your time as the Garden photographer. Do
you have any particular memories of any of those four,
whether it's a moment or even a photo and image
(05:32):
of of one of those four guys. You know, I
remember Chris Bosh somehow more than the others because I
took an interest in what he had to say. And Um,
I thought that he he was rather Uh. I thought
(05:52):
he was rather sort of intellectual in terms of understanding
what are what is, what's what's really going on in
the world and are he was very up front. Uh,
he knew how to speak. I loved his creativity in
relation to being together with with the fans. Uh. He
(06:14):
he knew that a good relationship with the fans was important.
And UM, and he did his best to be He
was funny. He was he was he was in a way,
he was like an entertainer. Um. Some of the other
players each have their I have my memory of our
(06:37):
UM Boston. When anybody wins on a wood from Boston.
I noticed that everybody from Boston, it seems, comes to
join and be part of it. And Um, this year
you have UM, a very popular Boston UH player who
(07:01):
little by little became the voice of the Celtics. Um.
Actually the voice of the Celtics is going to be inducted. Uh.
I think that's really wonderful. But um, I just feel
(07:22):
I feel thrilled that I'm part of this, and um
I have an opportunity to congratulate people like Mike Green
who won year would before me, and the horror of
Fame who have selected a certain amount of people to
represent the game. I love that somehow, when you talk
(07:42):
about the game, it refers more to basketball, let's say,
and to baseball for those of you who liked the game.
Somehow is very basketball for me. Now, maybe it's because
where I grew up, uh, and I love baseball. Actually
how to try with the boats bo Orioles and I
I was one of the skills that I had in
(08:05):
my athletic career. And I always felt that it was important,
um to have something that you could really do and
enjoy and be good at. And I felt that somewhere
in the cht field that was gonna be me. And
I had to try out with the both Orioles many
years ago, and they actually offered me a contract to play.
(08:29):
And I said to myself, um self, you're not going
to really be a great book player. You're not gonna
be making mail, you're not gonna be really mazed. But
I think I can be a great artist, and somehow
by being at the training camp for the Orios actually
more solidified my feeling about being in the world of
(08:53):
art in some way. And it turned out that the
photography was the way I went through I was a cartoonist,
I was I did paintings, I did um many things
in the in the world of art. But and I
spoke to so many people. It's amazing the amount of
people who enjoy talking about the art world and who
(09:14):
are in the art world. So um Anyway, I felt
that that was the place for me and that I
wasn't going to be a great wool player. So they
did me a favor by letting me play. And then
I saw I measured myself and said, Kolinski, you're not
gonna be Mickey Man or really amazing. Well, this is
how it goes, right, So if you're you know your
(09:37):
if you love sports the way we both do. At
a certain point, I realized I'm not going to be
a wide receiver for the San Francisco forty Niners, which
was my my boyhood team. That was the team I
really hardest forward. So yeah, we we find other ways
into the sports world. You got the job at the
Garden in nineteen sixties six. What do you remember about
(09:57):
how that came about? Did you have any inkling at
the time that this is something that could almost literally
last a lifetime and take you to so many amazing places? Um?
Literally and figuratively. Um. How did how did the start
of this come about? Um? I my career actually started
in nineteen six six and I I ran into Howard
(10:21):
coach Allen Muhammad Ali, who was Cassius Clay at the
time in Miami where I was. I was interviewing for
a job as a sports cartoonist or political cartoonist for
the Miami Herald, and I had to think about that twice. Anyway,
the Miami Hello wanted to hire me and as a
(10:43):
sports cartoonist and political cartoonist. And I was just debating
with me with my family, if this is something we
want to do by coming down to Miami. Uh living
in Miami, which is not a bad place of um. Anyway,
(11:04):
I found Cassius Clay into the gym and Angelo Dundee
stopped me. He said, you can't come in unless you
pay a dollar. And I had this camera around my
shoulder which I only are basically only took for pictures
that we were part of my family, and Uh, I said,
it just came out of my mouth. I said, Angelo,
(11:27):
I'm the photographer of Madison Square Garden. And Angelo said, okay, comedian,
come on in. So that's how I got into the gym.
And then I had this my role ead my one
camera that I had, which was a pretty good camera.
I went to Pratt and I needed a good camera
to photograph my designs that I was making a Pratt
(11:48):
and so I knew how to work the camera pretty well,
and so I took pictures of Cassius Clay working out.
I thanked Angelo for letting me in to have It's
wonderful opportunity to photograph people who um famous. I never
felt I never saw a famous I never photographed a
famous person before. So I I left the gym I
(12:15):
got into and I drove to where our our martel
was and I saw that Muhammed Ali. I keep it's
easy to say Muhammad Ali because that's where he is,
but in those days he was Cassius Clay. I heard
on the news of Cassius Clay. Uh was doing something newsworthy.
(12:36):
So I brought my role of film that I shot
in the gym to the Miami the photography department, and
they put one of the pictures over the wire service
and the next day one of my pictures is all
over the world. So this is the nineteen six and
six Um, I I thought, I thought to myself as itself,
(12:57):
this is something you can do and that you can
have fun at. And I certainly uh went out of
pretty quickly because the next day, by having one of
my pictures all over the world was I was a
big deal. So I went to John Condon, who was
the POI director of Madison Square Garden Boxing and he said,
if you can come to me with one role of
(13:19):
the film, I have the hoods but to hire you.
And um, that's exactly what he said. He said, if
you have the fts, butter come to me with win
roll the film, I have thet hire you. And that's
how I became the photographer Madison Square Garden, the New
York Next of Rangers and eventually, uh two million pictures later.
(13:40):
I feel so spilled and honored to be in the
Hall of Fame. It's it's absolutely incredible. And some of
your most iconic photos, I mean you mentioned cashus claim
Mohammed Aldi that's a becomes a recurring theme for you, right.
I mean, he's somebody who shot many times. Did you
tell me about you know, how you got to know
him as both a object and and just one to
(14:02):
one over the years. What kind of relationship do you
think you built with him? When I had that first
uh photo shoot so to speak, uh in in the
in the gym where in the fifth sty gym where
Mohammed Ali was. Um, that was that was important to
me in relation to having Mohammed Ali as my friend
(14:24):
because when I was it wasn't so fast as as
well as I mentioned that before, Uh really was something
where I looked in my camera, I saw these eyes. Uh.
It sort of excited me that I can take someone
famous and actually see him in my camera. And UM,
(14:45):
I thought that that was very important, um of time
to get to know catch his Clay and Mohammed Aubrey.
So uh we you just started a relationship of friendship
that uh just kept going on because I always had
(15:07):
assignments to photograph Cassius Clay, Mohammed Ali and it was
a real great opportunity of privilege to be uh near
him to talk with him. And as time went on,
you start saying that he has issues, I have issues.
We all have issues, and that we can start talking
(15:28):
to each other uh as friends. And somehow we clicked
and there was a chemistry that I had with Mohammed
and uh and he loved art and he loved Leeway Nieman.
Would we would like to see somewhere new Leewy Niemen
and we would we would working here or there? And
(15:50):
um ah Leeway was always asking, uh, are we about boxing?
And a we would ask Leroy painting and uh he
did lee. I did so many paintings and mainly sketches
actually uh for us and we I was really interested
as an artist to start off with. And but Ali
(16:15):
was really interested in in the in the world of art,
and he knew more about I was a pretty good artist.
And he I still uh, I still like to look
at his pictures that he did have clowns and children
and airplane mostly airplanes, and he loved he loved kids.
He loved children and he uh he did so much
(16:36):
for making kids happy that we're around him. I remember,
are are we coming to the garden And he's carrying
this big suitcase and I'm saying that must be heavy.
What's in there? And he said, ah, he said, they're
cords the kids to sign. I can sign my autograph
to the kids, he said, but this is like a trunk.
(16:59):
Even you, this has got to be heavy. He said.
Whatever I can do for the kids, I'm happy and
I want to do it. And are the kids are
the important people in this world. These are the people
we have to be good too, and and teach and
and and learn and and grow up with. That's fantastic.
(17:19):
You know. With Ali there's this obvious charisma about him,
right He's one of the greatest fighters and one of
the greatest athletes of all time. But he also just
has this this this thing, this this uh this aura
about him, a spark. Do you find, George, that in
the people that you've shot over the years, whether it's athletes,
whether it's all the years of shooting Patrick Ewing, or
when Michael Jordan comes through the garden, when Kobe comes
(17:40):
through the garden, when Lebron comes through the garden, or
whether it's Elton John or Mick Jagger, whoever it may be,
are are the best subjects for you as photographer, People who,
in addition to their talent, just have that other special something.
And is that is that something definable? Is it's something
you can key in on and say, yeah, like this
(18:01):
is somebody that I really want to shoot because there's
this spark and I and I can see it through
my viewfinder. I kind of get an interesting word. Um,
I had an exhibit a few years ago, and I'm
going to answer you a question. I had an exhibit
a few years ago at the at the Museum in
(18:25):
New York and the National Circle Society, and UM, I
sort of looked at my work when after they mounted
it on the World and I said, I said to myself,
you took all these pictures of icons, and I mean
I was like, I had goost acoustics, goose bumps, and
(18:47):
I was for the first time. It was only a
couple of years ago, but for the first time I
looked at my work, even if it was mad in
a book or in the world. Uh, in a in
a place where I had Picasso on one side of
the wall and my pictures were around the other. And
I actually that was a good feeling to have Picasso
(19:09):
on the other side of Um. Maybe someday I'll make
it so we'll be on the same side. Of the wall.
But um, I said, you took all those iconic pictures
and it it just really it hit me that this was, um,
this was important, that the ultimate picture of Sinatra or
(19:34):
ali uh elkan sewan uh proparaiety. I seem to have
taken the favorite photo of so many people and that's
the most important. UM. That's taking the most important or
the most likely picture of somebody. To me is the
(19:57):
ultimate um, the ultimate story and the ultimate um. It's
like achievements, right, Like that's the ultimate for a photographer.
You capture the moment that everybody else talks about. To
capture the moment of a person and to and to uh,
(20:22):
to have that person tell me that that was a
favorite photograph that anyone ever took of them, That to
me is the ultimate our compliment. I'm sorry, I couldn't
think of a word compliment, but that's the ultimate compliment
to a photographer. And I was, I really I looked
and I said, it took a lot of pictures, but
(20:43):
a lot of pictures don't mean that much. Uh. It
has to do with quality. And there's so many pictures
that I have taken that turned out to be iconic pictures,
like Willis reed working on the court. Um. It was
iconic because it was a moment, a moment that was
very special. And not only was it a moment that
(21:05):
was special, it was a photograph that was UH was
judged by its artistic merit, And the artistic merit of
a picture is really the ultimate dream for a photographer
to be able to UH to execute. I remember getting
a phone from her phone call from Nancy Uh and
(21:27):
Tina sin Archer, and Tina said, and her father had
just passed away only a few days before, and she
called me, and Tina had tears in her eyes, and
I wasn't sure what was going to happen, but she said, Um,
of all the pictures that have ever been I just
(21:49):
she said, joy to have to tell you this, where
of all the pictures that have been taking over my father,
no picture had the um the aura, no picture had
the essence of how you captured him. I love my father.
I think in this song that you took the picture
of him. UH went for my baby. Uh three o'clock
(22:14):
in the morning. Um, she said, I was that person
and he was singing to her, and I just think
that No, it's just I just wanted you to know
that that's a picture that was more important to us
as a family as a photograph than any other picture
that was taking a franction my father Frank Sinatra. That's amazing?
(22:36):
Is that? So there's like you have several incredible shots
of Frank Sinatra. Um, one of which, as I understand,
I think you had conceptualized where he's basically like a
boxer in the ring. Is it that one or is it? What?
Is it more? The the up close one on his
on his tight on his face as as he's singing.
Because you have several of him, I belief of Sinatra.
(22:58):
I there there are a lot, and um, I can
I have a lot of pictures this sin notre and
to think back that I can come up with the
uh pictures that the family likes. It's Frank like thank
every every Christmas, Bank said I need, I need some
pictures for Christmas gifts, and so I made him a
(23:22):
few prints and whatever he asked for, and whatever Frank
asked for, Frank gets so um he he uh he
signed pictures for as gifts for people at Christmas time.
So um. The one picture that he really loved, whereas
one with a cigarette in his hand and his family
(23:47):
loved that picture too, and there was an audi again
we were went to art. But there was an odd
element to that picture that was so important. And when
you take a picture, when you take a picture of
some somebody important, um, or a picture that is a
(24:08):
really great shot and may or may not be important,
but it's a great shot, you don't know necessarily how
good the picture is going to be until you see
it developed. And like some people ask me, do you know, uh,
did you know that in your camera you had a
great shot? And I said no, I didn't know until
(24:29):
I developed it. And then you can tell because some
pictures like WILLI is working on the court to mention
a picture I've keep talking about because it was such
an important moment at Madison's We're gone, um, and for
that matter, in the world of basketball, Um, the aura
(24:49):
of Willis working on the court was not understood fully
for maybe five or ten years later. And then ten
years after Will it is worked on the court and
the Nixon winning and basketball is becoming more important. Um.
You just see that that that picture is emerging. And
(25:13):
I think it was the first picture that was in
the Hall of Fame as a as a photograph of
being the will of fame. I'm not sure, but I
think I'm right. Um, But that picture became more famous
as time went on. And that's something that you uh,
you don't know in our picture like Paparatti where he's
(25:34):
going like this and in the young core and he
just is in a typical Paparatti uh um movement movement
and and and also the hands are have such meeting
the hands of Elvis. The hands are uh uh um.
(26:01):
So many entertainers and and uh and sports people who
at the end you win the you win the Stanley
Cup and your your arms are up like Messier has
his arms up. That's the ultimate picture that you're looking for.
But then you can come up with a situation like
Bill Russell, who I took a photograph of him rebounding,
(26:24):
and that simple rebounding picture maybe my favorite picture in
sports and certainly in basketball that I ever thought it was.
To me, it was already it was. It was esthetically beautiful,
and he looked he looked like Bill Russell in this picture.
(26:45):
It looked like he was have somebody sculpture him in
this position. In that position would be uh he would
be known forever and it turns out that that turned
out to be Bill Russell's favorite photograph is Uh. He
said that anybody, anybody who wants to use a picture
(27:05):
of him as best he can, he's gonna find to
make it be that that's the photograph that that is
being used. This is the shot if I'm looking at
the right one, George, It's it's in black and white.
And Russell only has one leg planted because the other
foot is in the air as high as the basketball itself.
Is that the shot. It's an amazing situation that his
(27:27):
foot went higher than his head. It's incredible. I was
talking to somebody today about that, and somebody who was
interested in and talking about the picture any in person.
The person only knew that it was a good shot.
And I feel it was my best shot that I
ever took in in basketball, if not sports. But it's
(27:49):
it's like it's it's it's a carving, it's a sculpture.
It's uh. It has a beginning of middle and end.
It has all the elements that you wanted that you
won in a in a picture. And uh, this is
also arguably the greatest win certainly went into two or
three greatest players of all time. The wrestle actually was
(28:12):
my favorite player of triend and I uh, I loved
the fact that he was able to bring the ball up.
He was a point guard. There was a center, and
he was he just had movements that no one else had. George.
When you think about I mean, man, you you have
(28:32):
shot pretty much every Hall of Famer, every every All Star,
every great player, every player big and small, um for
you know, a half century. So it might be hard
to narrow down. But were there specific guys, whether the
Knicks obviously the team you shot the most, or anybody
else in the league, were there certain guys who you
most enjoyed shooting, having that vantage point, you know, from courtside,
(28:55):
from the baseline, and that when they came to the
garden or again if it maybe it was one of
the next that you thought, like, this is just somebody
I really enjoy tracking and capturing. Well, the exciting players
are like the exciting entertainers. Sometimes these players are like
Lebron James and uh Kobe Michael Jordan's These these players,
(29:18):
uh have our our charisma to them that uh that
makes it makes you want to take to take a
picture of them, That makes you want to capture this charisma.
I look at Elton John as an example of an
entertainer with the glasses and his cape, and I see
Elvis is with his cape and he got the cape
(29:40):
and blute Richard the a cape idea. And then you
go to Michael Jordans coming in and you can't get
enough of Michael Uh. I got photographed Michael uh and
his slam dunk contest, which was the first slam dunk
contest that was his first year he played. And I
think I got where it is what I would consider
(30:04):
really good shots, great shots of Michael and I I just, um,
I just feel that um, as time goes on and
you get enough iconic shots in our kind of places
and excitment for iconic moments, that these pictures are going
(30:27):
to be more valuable, more more um more interesting, which
reminds me of Sinatra telling me once we went out
to dinner once and actually we went to that we
went at to dinner more than once, but uh we
we were talking about are an event called the main event,
(30:52):
and Sinatra always Sinatra said I want to tell you something.
This he told me at our lunch and he said,
I want to tell you something, he said, I'm gonna
tell you something there you know you never heard before,
and I've kept and I very rarely have talked to
anybody about this, but I want your I want to
share it with you, he said. When I was when
(31:13):
I was young, my dream was when I was a teenager,
my dream was to be the heavyweight champion of the world. Um.
I wanted because there's nothing nothing in the world that
has a bigger aura, a bigger uh platform, a bigger
stage than the heavyweight than winning the heavyweight championship of
(31:36):
the world. In Madison's were Goden, you need all of
those pieces you need Madison's were Goden, you need the
factor that's a heavyweight championship. That's my dream. Well, I
couldn't be that, and I did the best I could.
And that's why I came uh to to various people,
including yourself, to find out about what they thought about
(31:57):
the main event and I for me and I wanted
the feeling of not only the main event of U
boxing champion, but I wanted the feeling or having that
man having the heavyweights, the aura of the heavyweight championship
fright um uh and and having it at the Gorden,
(32:21):
so not just said the next best thing was to
have it as a as a concert at the Gorden.
And I want I want the the ceiling of the garden,
which is so spectacular. I want that to be in
in my picture of the advertising for it. I want
my I want that to be to have the same
(32:44):
quality and the same importance as the ceiling in the
Muhammad Ali Joe Fraser Fright. So I did some, I said,
I made it. So I made uh some skeed sister
Frank and he he he loved the idea of being
(33:06):
under the ceiling and a tuxedo, white tuxedo with I'm sorry,
black tuxedo with a white scar and Frank looked dazzling
and it was it was an opportunity to uh photographed
Frank the way he wanted to be photographed, and he
wanted to be pleased. And that's some of the artwork
(33:28):
that we shared. But again he he he, he did
everything he could to physically and artistically have something that
would be very similar to the Muhammad Ali Joe Fasia poster.
When the when they when the day came of the
for the main event, um event Sinatra quote me, he said,
(33:55):
I said, He said, this is this is He used
the word marvel. It's around he said this morbl us
and uh, I was very happy and thrilled about that,
and he said, I hope it works. And the the
advan of Sinatra holding up his hands like this and
with the tuxedo with the garden ceiling on the top,
(34:18):
the adman internationally and and papers all over the world
and as well as uh the United States, and he
has uh, he has great We had great shots of
of of the ceiling of Sinatra with his arms up
(34:39):
and it was it was it was sinatric dream come true.
Very cool that that is possibly one of the coolest
stories that could possibly be told. Are certainly at least
from a from a photographer's point of view, that's incredible. Um.
You've also been part of Witness too and photographed UM
(35:02):
three really important moments of course in New York sports history,
the Nicks Championship, the six Mets Championship, the ninety four Rangers,
which you were alluding to earlier. UM, of those three,
is there a favorite? You know? I some of the
people ask me what is my favorite photograph? And the
(35:22):
truth of the matter is is that I have had
the privilege to photograph so many important things that I
and to come out with so many important pictures, especially
the iconic ones, that it's hard to say. Um. I
mean Willis working on the court was a moment that
(35:43):
was special, uh special in the history of the garden. Um.
I think Jesse Rascoe on his knees. I went to
Mets one the World Series against Bulliston. Um that was
that was I was really big to me in terms
of artistic it was he's on his knees, his hands
(36:04):
are up. I sometimes think that I can do a
whole book on just people with their hands up and
arms raised. I mean the Pope, which I thought was
a great picture that I took Ailso has his arms
raised as he's holding the girl, and um, it was
it was just Um. I think when it comes down
(36:25):
to push, push and shove, I think the I think
the the Ali Frasier fight, which arguably was the greatest
weating avainable time, was was the event that I thought
it was the best. A couple more before I let
you go, because I want to talk about Willis read
for a minute, because you mentioned him walking on the court.
(36:46):
Of course, we're talking about the nineteen seventies NBA Finals
Lakers Knicks Game seven. Willis had been injured in Game
five and missed all of game six. Um, so there's
the moment of him coming back. Of course, this is
just one of the This is a legendary moment in
sports history period. Um. And I think there's some backstory
there too, because I know you know, uh, well, let's
(37:08):
read very well. Uh give me a sense of what
that that moment was for you and what you knew
going into that. I had lunch with Willis that that
that day, and I told Willis, and I really meant this.
I said, well, it's you. I'm not sure I want
(37:29):
you to play because, um, you just you can hurt
yourself for life. And um he said, he's gonna play.
And he's gonna play because only maybe only once in
your lifetime. Then you've got an opportunity to win a championship.
(37:49):
And tonight is an opportunity for me to win a championship.
And I'm gonna play. If I have to spoil out
of my hands and knees, I'm coming out there to play.
And he he was emphatic about that, and it was
so important that Willis. Um, Willis play for him. But
(38:12):
it was also an important moment, probably the most exciting
moment on the court of Madison Square. Go ahead and
ever that it was a pass that I kept running
into the dressing movement to see how Willis was doing.
He was getting dressed here. All of New York wanted
to know. I was a big question. All of New
York wanted to know if Willis was going to play.
(38:34):
And I'm saying, it's not a question. They don't know
how hurting, how he's hurt him. But Willis did play.
He won the championship for the next He inspired the
next and motivated the next two UH to uh to win,
to score the first two baskets UH. Jerry West was
mad at at Jerry West was mad at will Chamberlain
(38:57):
because Chamberlain only wanted me to go into the dressing
to find out how Willis is doing. And and we said,
we're never gonna win a game if we're worried about
the players and how the player feels. So um West
still tells me that the worst moment he ever had
on the court was that moment where Willis. Everybody was
(39:22):
worried about Willis. Um and his including his team, and
that's and that's not what winning is. Winning is when
you're determined to beat whoever you're playing, and uh, don't
worry about, um, anything else but but winning. So Willis's
name became. Uh, it's almost like in the dictionary, you're
(39:46):
pulling a Willis reed if you're coming back from an injury.
And UM, absolutely true, by the way, and we all
refer to that now that is the go to reference point,
and it's it's interesting. So if all these iconic shots
that we've talked about of yours, the one that sticks
out to me, George, my personal favorite is not even
(40:07):
on the court. I think it's actually the uh, the
seventy three next team. Everybody with the number one up, Um,
Willis Reid, Phil Jackson's in that shot, while Frasier, Bill
Bradley and uh, and of course Phil Jackson's got this
funny gap toothed grin. There's just something that's the absolute
joy of of that photo. Um, that to me is
always leapt out. It's just it just resonates emotionally. Um,
(40:31):
that one's a really a really fun shot as well. Um,
And a lot of your work is of course already
in the basketball Hall of Fame. So in some ways
your work preceded you to Springfield by by several years.
I imagine. I don't know how many of your shots
are there, but I know that that there they have
quite a collection. You know. You mentioned Bill Bradley, and
I spoke to Bradley actually today and um be blood
(40:55):
the fifth game in seventy four, Willis, we're still hobbling terribly,
and Bradley told me that you concentrate with your camera
on on Bradley, on me, because I'm gonna be doing
(41:17):
something that I never did before. I'm gonna be jumping
in joy with showing a lot of emotion on Willis's back,
and Willis is gonna just have to put up with
it because that's the we're gonna win tonight. I'm gonna
show emotion and feelings which I hardly ever do, and
I'm gonna have I'm gonna show the world that Bill
(41:40):
Bradley can really smile, can really get exhilarated, can really
get excited in a game, and that um you just watch,
You'll see, You'll see what's gonna happen. And at the
end of the game, with three seconds ago, Bradley just
breaks away from everybody else, jimps Son Willis has the
(42:03):
emotion in his face with his mouth open and his
eyes and um, and that became a really important shot, uh,
for for Bradley, but it also was it was earlier,
and it was the earlier part of the evening where
the picture you liked Bill Bradley with with the four
(42:26):
other Nick players with with holding up their thinking we're
number one, And that was a great shot. Well sir,
But if I had to pick on which is the
best shot, I couldn't because they both show emotion, they
both have feelings, and they both have everything you want
in a picture. Absolutely well said before let you go
so um because of COVID. Of course, none of us
(42:48):
were in the NBA arenas for a long stretch last year,
and because of COVID concerns, I know you set out
most or maybe all of this past season. The Knicks
are finally good again, um, which I'm sure is more
enjoyed wable for you. Um. You know, regardless, you can
get great photos of winning teams or losing teams, but
the gardens more fun when the Nicks are great. Um.
Do you have thoughts on on how you're gonna handle
(43:10):
the upcoming season. What's it been like for you to
have to have that detachment for this this period of
time after so many years of so many events that
you've been you know, present for Well, obviously, UM, I'm
not the youngest person anymore, and I still enjoy working out,
(43:32):
and I enjoy photographing, and I think I can still
take as my photographs are still are good, and but
it's things are changing, and um, I would like to
continue as as long as I take good pictures. My
(43:52):
objective and photographing a game naturally is to get good photographs,
and I feel that, um that's what my job is.
I can still do it. And as long as the
the Garden allows me to take the photographs and gives
me the privilege to be able to photograph, uh, these
(44:14):
great entertainers and athletes, I'm going to do it. You know.
It's really um oh, I have to think about what
I'm going to do when I don't take pictures anymore.
And in some ways, I look at what I do
and I say, you know, you can take pictures as
(44:34):
long as you want. Nobody's going to stop you from
taking pictures because this is what you enjoy this is
what you do, well, this is what you like to do.
I've taken two million pictures. Um as always room for more,
I guess, but um I will. I will go along
(44:55):
with whatever is best for uh. For my relationship shift
with the Garden and I. The Garden has been, you know,
the Garden has been a place where I have been
able to photograph on the world's biggest stage, on the
world's most famous stage, and the world's most um known arena.
(45:20):
And this is a responsibility that this can't be taken lightly.
The fact that I'm the Garden photographer means that I
have to make sure that my pictures are better than
anyone else's and that that that may may seem odd
that I say that, but I have them. I have
(45:41):
the drive in me that once I say to myself,
I hope there's four hundred photographers, I hope they had
six hundred photographers here. So I'm really driven to take
the best pictures I can possibly take, and I want
to continue to do that as long as I can.
And I'm really as I said, the Garden is u
(46:04):
is a place where you want to take the best pictures,
to do the best you can. For example, when Lebron
James or the Pope or Paparatti or Sinatra um or
back in their Peggy fleming. These people know that they
(46:24):
have to uh, they have to take the best. Um.
These people know that they have to um perform better
than anywhere else. They have to perform at a higher
level than any other arena in the world. Madison Square
Garden is the show place of arenas matter of and
it's it's it's the place where it's the ultimate place
(46:47):
where you can perform. And it doesn't matter if you
are boxing or basketball or hockey. UM. I think of
it as as I'm thrilled that I'm able to take
all these pictures. I have the privilege to take all
these pictures. But um, I I just feel that um,
(47:08):
just like the players have they sort of sweat. Lebon
James sweats before he goes on the court. He's nervous.
The Pope sweats and not just sweating, um, you know
even how at least swaded and uh. So this is
the uh, this is the hurdle that I said for myself,
this is the this is the the the the gauge
(47:34):
that I have said to that I have to take
pictures that are better than just anybody else's. Yeah, now
you've you've got to live up to the legends that
you're shooting as there they have the pressure on them.
That's a perform of the Garden. I guess for you,
so so do you. But you have lived up to
that over and over through decades of sporting events and
(47:56):
concerts and everything else. Um, you're the best, George. I'm
so happy to see you get this honor with the
Kirk Gaddy Award at the Hall of Fame. Congratulations again,
enjoy that moment in a few weeks in Springfield. Great
to see you and and uh and hope to see
you again at the Garden soon when we both get
back there. I would thank you very much. It's always
been great to be with you and to talk with you,
(48:18):
and I appreciate you having me on your show. Thank you. Okay,
that's it for today's show. My thanks again to George Kolinski,
thank you Sammy Steinlit for getting us connected today, Thanks
to our producer Shelby Royston, and of course thank you
all for listening. Remember you can hear Chris Mannox and
(48:38):
me every Tuesday on the Crossover with all the latest
NBA Chatter and on Friday's It's Me and a Guest.
Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Crossover
wherever you get your podcasts, and hit me with all
your feedback on Twitter at Howard Beck
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