September 23, 2020 • 38 mins
Congresswoman Barbara Lee is a path-breaking progressive leader who has served in Congress for over the past two decades. As one of the principal voices on racial justice and equity, Lee joins Pete to talk about her upbringing in segregated El Paso, share incredible stories from her time working with Shirley Chisholm, and discuss her Truth, Racial Healing, and Transformation Commission. Together, they try to find some of the answers we’re all searching for right this moment: How do we face our deepest, harshest truths? How do we heal? And how can we move forward together?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Pete Buda Edge, and this is the deciding decade.
Throughout this summer, we've seen a reckoning about how to
face one of our country's deepest, harshest truths, how pervasive
racism has dominated so much of our past and continues
to shape so much of our present. We've seen George
(00:25):
Floyd murdered, Jacob Blake shot, Brianna Taylor robbed of her life.
We've seen communities of color disproportionately impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.
America is staring at our reality of discrimination and bias
directly in the face, and has past time for all
of us, especially white Americans, to address it. So where
do we go from here? The answer, of course, is complicated,
(00:49):
But my guest today talks about how we need, really
for the first time in this country, to take a
step back and examine the effects that slavery, institutional racism,
and discrimination have had Black Americans and still have on
our country's laws and policies. We need to do this
as a way to heal and as a catalyst for progress.
I draw a lot of hope from the thought of
(01:11):
what could happen if we were to do this together
over the decade ahead, with the leadership of people like
my guests today. Congresswoman Barbara Lee is a progressive leader
and a path breaking individual who has made an enormous
difference in the United States Congress and in the progressive movement,
continuing to speak to issues that are going to shape
our time. She's been an effective public servant who has
(01:34):
led on a number of issues and is not afraid
to take an unpopular position. In fact, she was the
only member of Congress to vote against the authorization of
military force after the September eleventh attacks. She's also one
of America's most distinctive voices on racial justice and equity.
Some of the answers were searching for right this moment
have to do with challenges she's been speaking to for
(01:55):
a long time. How do we face our deepest, harshest truths,
How do we heal? How can we move forward together?
Congress Womanly, thanks so much for joining us, and what
I know is a busy time. Well, yeah, no, I'm
really happy to be with you. Is nice seeing you again.
In time, I learned how to pronounce your last name right.
(02:18):
That's right, doesn't roll off the time quite likely but
you got it just right. Thanks for joining us, But
I missed you on that stage. I thought you did
great well. Thank you. Can't wait to hear what you have.
Thank you. It almost feels like another lifetime ago, doesn't it?
Just just earlier this calendar year when we were all
running for president. Who could have guessed how the stage?
(02:38):
Yea and November is the turning point I think. I
think either we go forward and we go backwards in
this country on all issues. This is a defining moment
I think for the United States. I think so too.
We have to recognize that. I think that's right. And
part of what we're doing in this podcast is a
series of conversations about exactly that, not just what do
(02:59):
we need to do in this moment, but how does
this moment shape the years that are coming ahead? And
and that's one of the reasons why I was so
eager to talk to you, because your career, your activism,
and your your legislation has I think, always taken that
long view into account and it's something I'm really eager
to explore. But before we get into politics and policy, Uh,
(03:21):
something else I wanted to ask you about. You were
born in El Paso, Texas. Yeah, very curious about what
El Paso was like during your childhood. Oh boy, Well,
first of all, I love El Paso, and the more
I go there as an adult, the more I really
recognize the beauty of the people, uh, the grit and
the toughness of the people, and the fact that we
(03:44):
had so many challenges um as African America's quick story.
My mother was born in El Paso. My grandfather and
his father were born in Galveston, Texas, and that was
where two years later we learned that we were read
as slaves, right, and that was yeah, and that's June tenth.
(04:04):
And so El Paso, my grandfather migrated to. He thought
he was achieve a better opportunity there. He had finished
college and he became the first black letter carrier in
El Paso, Texas, and he spoke fluent Spanish. So that's
why I'm so committed to the postal service, you know,
and and reserving the US Postal Service as a public entity, because,
(04:27):
in addition to how important it is for the country
in a general sense, it was the primary means to
the middle class for African Americans. And so we lived
in El Paso, Texas, with my grandfather and grandmother, my mother,
and my dad who was in the military. So my
mother had met him because she was working at Fort Bliss,
the first African American woman to work there. Yeah, she
(04:50):
was one of the first twelve students to integrate the
University of Texas at El Paso. But I gotta tell
you about when I was born, and this left a
mark on me that I will never forg get and
really describes why I fight for justice and for women's health.
She went out to the hospital she needed a C section.
They wouldn't admit her because she was black, my grandmother.
(05:11):
And again going back to the Confederacy that you know,
black women were raped by the heads of households. So
my great grandmother had been raped by the guy she
worked for. And so out of that came two girls,
my grandmother and my great out. They looked like they
were white, and so for my grandmother that she had
to demand that my mother get in the hospital because
(05:32):
she said that was her daughter. And they looked at
my mother, and they looked at my grandmother. They couldn't
quite figure it out. So they thought my grandmother was white.
So they led her in and she needed a c section,
but they left her in the hall on a guerney,
and my mother became unconscious and she almost died. No
one attended to her at all. Nobody. Finally someone came
up and saw that she was delirious and really needed attention,
(05:55):
and they didn't know what to do. They could not
do a c section then it was just too dangerous,
and so they took her into the emergency room and
they barely got me here because they had to use
force ups to deliver me. My mother almost died and
I almost didn't get here. So that kind of tends
you the story. So when we talked about years later,
we talked about this maternal mortality gap that is clearly
(06:18):
a consequence of systemic racism. This is not theoretical, for
you know, it's there's nothing new, but it's a shame
and disgrace that we have gone back to the reports
to show twenty five years to where we were. So no,
this is not new to me. Then That's why when
we decided to form our Black Maternal Health Caucus, I
immediately joined because my life almost was taken from me,
(06:41):
or I almost was not granted life, and that was
because my mother was black. And because I was black.
But my mother and grandfather and dad decided that they
weren't going to participate in anything that was segregated anymore.
So they sent us to Catholic school. So the Catholic
school was integrated and the public school was not. Yeah, yeah,
but integrated men two black students, me and my So
I want to ask you also about what I think
(07:03):
was a formative experience must have been working on Shirley
Chisholm's campaign for president. I think many of us are
aware that she was the first black woman to run
for president, but in researching for this podcast, I was
not aware that she was the first black candidate for
a major party, man or a woman, and the first woman,
black or white or otherwise to run for president as
(07:25):
a Democrat. Yeah. I look back on that campaign, Shirley
Chishen now context. I was a student at Mills College
and All Women's College in Oakland, California, and I had
a class in government, and we had a class assignment
to work in a political campaign. Then it was mc
govern Humphrey Muskie, and I told my teacher flunk me,
(07:45):
Dr brand Mullins, I'll never forget, I said, I've never
flunked a class before, but flunk me. I said, these
guys don't reflect any of the issues, and they don't
stand for anything that I care about or believe in.
For me, as a young black woman on wealth. They're
raising two single kids. That's right, because you were You
were a single mother while attending college at Milton. I
was a single mother. Yeah, but I was also president
(08:08):
of the Black student union at the same time. I
invited Congresswoman Chisholm, as the first African American woman he
elected to Congress, to come speak to the student union.
I had no idea she was running for president. Uh
And so after she spoke, I met her and talked
with her big Afro James T shirt, two little kids,
and she spoke fluent Spanish. She talked about in lubod rights,
(08:30):
she talked about reducing an eliminating poverty. She was against
the Vietnam War, she was an educator, talked about childcare.
Every issue that I cared about she talked about in
her speech. And I went up to her later and
I said, Ms. Chisholm, you know I have this class
I'm about to flunk, and you know I'm supposed to
wearing in campaign, maybe I'll reconsider. So she took me
to task, and she said to me, and she always
(08:52):
called me even til her last month of life, on
this little girl, you have got to get on the
inside and shake things up if you believe in what
you're pushing and saying. She said, you kind of registered
a vote. I said, in no way, I don't believe.
Just like many young people now, I do not believe
in this two party system because the Democrats haven't done anything,
and the Republicans say, why should I be party to
(09:14):
that craziness? That's irrelevant? So what about that? You know?
Right now a lot of advocates and activists are in
the street protesting systemic racism, responding to police violence, and
I've seen that tension that I think a lot of
us are saying that, you know, this is exactly why
we need to vote, And a lot of advocates and
activists are saying this isn't just about elections, which is
of course true, but I think sometimes frustrated or impatient
(09:37):
with the idea that this has to lead to a
political process. How do you reconcile those things? It sounds
like it's not a new conversation from your perspective, it's
not I see me and them. I mean, because I
was exactly there and it was really passing this class.
I mean, I loved her and here as a black
woman running for president, and I gotta do something. So
I went back and she told me the registered to vote.
(09:58):
You've got to help me. I said, well, who called?
How do I get involved? She said, I don't have
a lot of national money and my local organizers and
leave it near doing something. So I went back to
the class, I contacted the friends and we ended up
organizing the Shirley Chisholm presidential Northern California primary out of
my class at Mills College. I got it A in
the class, and I went on to Miami as a
(10:20):
Shirley Chisholm delegated and we took about eight percent of
the vote and allow me to cap. And Shirley Chisholm
became a close friend and I traveled with her. I
didn't work for her formerly, but I was one of
her key Northern California fundraisers and volunteers and I got
to know her really well. And then I went on
to work for my beloved Rod del and I got
(10:41):
a chance to be with Shirley Chisholm in here in Washington,
d C. While working for Ron and I saw how
she had to fight, like as a black woman, just
to get on the rules committee. They put her on
the Agriculture Committee, and she wanted to get on labor age.
So she made a heck of a lot out of
egg for urban gardens, you know, and for food security
and all and nutrition. So I saw her take racism
(11:04):
and sexism and turn it around and make it into
something she wanted. And like she told me, she says,
you can't go along to get along if you're a
black woman. And she said, and you've got to get
in and and not go along with these rules. She said,
they weren't made for you. You gotta go in and
change the rules of the game and shake things up.
And that's what she did. Every step of the way.
She pushed back. I mean, you had every member of
(11:26):
Congress on her saying she was crazy, saying why is
she really doing this, She's pushing the envelope. She's not
a team player. She's and she was very independent. I mean,
I remember when she went down to see George Wallace
when he was shot in the hospital, and I was
so upset, I said, I'm gonna leave this campaign. You know,
the segregationist. Wait a minute. She went to visit George Wallace,
the set who campaigned on in the hospital. Oh yeah,
(11:49):
this is a story I've never really told too many
people except Peggy Wallace Kennedy is a Democrat, and we
become close friends. When Shirley and Shirley took me to
task about that, she said, Burbon, She said, he's gonna
be paralyzed. You've got to show some humanity. He is
a segregation but you never know, you might be able
to change someone's heart. She said, So get off it.
(12:10):
I mean, she really and I was ready to leave
the campaign. She went down and saw George Wallace. Last year,
Peggy Wallace Kennedy, when I was in Alabama with John
Lewis told me, she says, Bourbon. I was there with
Daddy when Shirley Chisholm came to visit him, and I
want you to know she was the one that convinced
him to apologize. Now a little too late, and so
(12:34):
she said later she was able he was able to
call some Southern I won't call him what they are
guys and get them to vote for certain issues that
Shirley Chisholm was champion and that was all because of
that one visit, and you know that gives me home.
(13:04):
You know, a very important part of many faith traditions
is this idea of redemption, this idea of version, this
idea that it's never too late and you can't give
up on anybody. Um do you think that idea is
harder to make good on now, especially for progressives or
anybody confronting what we're up against as a country, the
climate of of hate, the resurgence of different forms of
(13:26):
white nationalism, and and the awareness that you know, many
things that never went away in the first place, fighting
some of the same fights that were fought fifty years ago.
What has that done to your level of faith in
the possibility of redemption and conversion and change. Listen, I
believe in redemption and conversion and change. But I also
believe that white supremacy is driving this white House and
(13:50):
this government and white nationalism. And so if we don't
deal with it, I'll talk about my commission, the Truth,
Racial Healing and Transformation. If if I don't believe even
in in that, I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
You know, I get tired of and a lot of
my colleagues get tired of telling life folks what to
do now. But I think when you look at systemic racism,
(14:11):
this is the moment to make sure people understand that
COVID nineteen is not disproportionately impacting Black people. It just
didn't happen. Health disparities have always been here. Uh, it
didn't just happen that African American men and women are
disproportionately killed and murdered by police officers. It's always been here.
It didn't just happen that the wealth gap, in the
(14:32):
wage gap, and the lack of affordable housing and unequal education,
all of that is connected to slavery to pour into
one years ago. Forty countries after atrocities, human rights atrocities,
after genocides, they all have a truth and sometimes reconciliations,
sometimes truth. We're calling ours a racial healing and transformation,
(14:53):
because there's nothing to reconcile in this country. Yeah, I
wanted to ask you about this. So one of the
best examples are one of the best known examples for
the kind of process you're describing, is famously the truth
and Reconciliation Commission that came together in South Africa responding
to the Carteide. But you've pointed out that this word
reconciliation doesn't apply in the same way here, and I'd
(15:14):
love to ask you to unpack that a little bit
and explain what why is reconciliation not the right word
for what needs to happen or what needs to happen,
especially with regard to the black perspective. Well, because what
is there to when you have reconciliation? You have to
have a process that bore I won't say compromise, but
consensus coming together both sides have a valid point. There's
(15:34):
no valid point to slavery, and there's no valid point
to systemic racism. And the general side of the Native Americans,
what's the counterpoint is that what do you reconcile when
land was stolen from Native people? What do you reconcile
when two fifty years of slavery of Africans on this
kind of there's nothing to reconcile. So we decided that
(15:55):
once we have this truth telling moment in a public way,
because we know don't have a body the historical context
for systemic racism, then uh, it's a day of reckoning
we have to have in this country like other countries have.
And then you cleanse, you looked towards some form of
process of healing. Then you look at the policies, programs,
(16:16):
funding priorities, systems in the private and public sector that
perpetuate systemic racism, and you transform those out of the
core and their DNA being systemic racism to one of justice.
And I look at everything at a racial length. Is
this gonna perpetuate systemic racism or is it gonna help
this manet? Well, the rest of the country and elected
(16:38):
officials have to start doing that. They have to start
looking at their boats, okay, and they have to know
what systemic racism is. Listen. I come from a very
progressive community Berkeley and Oakland, and my friends and constituents
called me up after they saw images of black people
dying of COVID disproportionately and didn't quite understand it. How
can this be? That? S a man, don't you know
(16:59):
what's the stomach racism is? But I thought we had
dealt with all the lots and said, wait a minute,
wait a minute, we have not dealt with four one
years ago. Very few people were taught about the history
of slavery. What happened? Okay, and and Marpy. You then
have lynch ging, you have a system of lynching, you
have a sense of Jim Crow, you have the Black Code,
(17:20):
you have segregation. Do you know it wasn't until nineteen
when black people could buy a house and if they
were discriminated against, they had no recourse until fair housing
laws will pass. This is recent. This is and I
rec this is not about a far off historical story.
This is something that's living with us. Yeah, so these
are chains of slavery that have to be broken. You
(17:41):
mentioned follow up, and I think this is so important
because it's such a powerful model. But uh, there was
an article by Sisson came Simon on some of the
shortcomings of the South African experience. I just want to
read you a couple of the things that the author said,
because I think they raised this question of how do
you make sure we actually get to where we need
to get. One of the comments in the article is
(18:01):
twenty three years after the transition to democracy. The author
right's the wider systemic racial and economic inequalities that have
kept most black South Africans poor while preserving the wealth
and privileged most white South Africans enjoyed under apartheid remain
firmly in place. The article also went on to say
a genuine truth and reconciliation process, Again that's the vocabulary
(18:23):
they use for the South Africa Commission. Genuine process would
have aimed to address not just serious human rights violations,
but also the socio economic effects of apartheime. So what
does it mean. How do these two things fit together.
The conversation about some kind of truth and healing process
and the conversation about whether we call it reparations proactive
(18:46):
economic change? How do those things fit together? And do
we have to go through the truth process before we
can get to the reckoning process. You absolutely have to
go through the truth talent process. Otherwise you're tinkering around
the edges when you set piles season and make decisions
for people and you oftentimes it's subconscious that they end
up being very racist decisions. So you have to have
(19:08):
the truth telling. Some people know when they're aware of
what they're doing, especially those in leadership, but at the
community level, you know they've been thirty five of these.
Dr Gail Christopher has been doing this with the Kellogg
Foundation for years and it's really powerful. And what we
have to do is make sure that whatever comes out
of it reparations, Yes, addressing how you repair the damage
(19:31):
in terms of, say, for instance, homeownership, how do you
do that. There's some catch upping we gotta do. You
can't write. How do you address equal education for for
African American black and brown students. Well, there's a lot
we have to do to shatter the unequal education barriers
and the systems and build a new educational SYSM. No
(19:52):
one says it can be done overnight. We've got to
start somewhere. And so I think if there's buy in,
and that's why the commission has to be a tight commision,
and that's gonna listen to people from all around the
country and what happened to their ancestors, Why were they
not able to ever purchase a home? What was with
the barriers, what it wasn't in the HUD regulations or
(20:13):
the the banking rules that kept them from acquiring Well, okay,
and so we start deconstructing all of that. And you
can only do that by telling the truth and not
cover it up. And so we have to learn from
South Africa. We have to learn. They've been forty some countries,
some of them have been very soon, and so we
have to look at Rwanda. We have to look at
(20:34):
a lot of what has taken place within the context
of this country and do our own thing here because
you have so many violations of human rights that are
still with us UH and and black people that still
we ride. I mean, we're still out there fighting, you
know too, for the soul of this country, and that
it's not only for African Americans, it's for you. It's
(20:56):
for everybody to reckon with what unfortunately saw with the
murder of Muster Floyd. Everybody's got to reckon with that.
I want to ask you about that idea of everybody,
because I think part of what I've been reflecting on
a lot of somebody's a political figure who's white, who
thinks of myself as progressive, is I think there's a
lot of us who are involved in in the different systems,
(21:18):
whether it's in a role in government or in the
economy or some other way. Think of racism is something
that is over there that there are some people the
George Wallace's right, the kind of nakedly, openly racist people
that we see that's where all the racism is. And
it makes it a lot easier for anybody else who
(21:40):
is white to say, well, obviously I'm against that, and
I'm against them, and they have to change. But it's
very easy to to skip over why I have to change.
And so I wonder as somebody who's from a progressive
district who engages with a lot of well intentioned white
progressives who probably started calling you more than usual after
(22:01):
the murder of George Floyd, who are trying to be
part of the solution, but have maybe up until now
thought of racism as something that could only be part
of the heart of an altogether bad person. What thoughts
do you have on the right way to come to
terms with how even very progressive people who would say
we totest racism are still mixed up in it have
(22:23):
inhaled it precisely because it is, as you said, systemic. Yeah,
a lot of white people don't really understand it. And
I my district is very progressive, and and I've worked
with progressive organizations, and and I I am a progressive
African American woman. Racial equity is never seen as an issue,
(22:44):
and I have to beat the drum every time I'm
in these meetings of white progressives talking about economic inequality,
I said, well, you gotta add racial inequality. I mean,
I beat the drum on that in the Progressive Caucus.
And you know, I've had to do that for twenty
one years, and beginning it's beginning to have to resonate.
You know, we have to all do that. And that's
why this commission going back to that, forming them even
(23:05):
at local levels before the national when it's put into place.
It's so important because you've got to deconstruct this stuff.
White supremacy is embedded in everything. And look at gentrification, no,
you know, I mean people engaged in in displacement. You know,
good people. They may not think what they're doing is
is racist, but it is because it's disproportionately impacting African
(23:26):
Americans and people of color. People who are saying, oh,
you gotta go to s b A and have a
relationship with SBA before you can come to this bank
to get a loan to get your p p P
by systemic racism, because black people don't have those relationships
with SPA, nor with the bank, and so come on,
these are most liberal people sometimes saying, why can't you
(23:47):
get that loan? And you know what I mean, so
you have to pull out. I can give you chapter
in verse of how this economic system is filled with
barrier and good people don't even recognize it. So out
I'm dealing with trying to get these Confederate statutes out
of the capital, and a lot of my colleagues don't
even know that these Confederate leaders were trying to preserve slavery,
(24:11):
committing acts of treason and didn't want to see my
ancestors free. They don't even know that. I have to explain.
I mean members of black hocosol know, but we have
to deconstruct this with people. And as a veteran, I've
been marveling at the process of many people thinking for
the first time about the fact that military installations are
(24:32):
named after men who took up arms against the United
States trainers, I mean, people who fought against the United States, right,
and you know, being from a military family, what what
that means? So how many people know that? So I'm
saying we have to It's a massive and you can
help tremendously in your community throughout the country with people
(24:52):
who don't quite get it. They need to understand this
and how deep it goes and how it's reflected is
nothing personal. You know. I always try to say, don't
don't take this as I'm calling you a racist. Understand
that slavery was a government sanctioned institution. It's the government policies. Yeah,
probably your ancestors were involved in some of that, but
(25:12):
that's not about us trying to get anything out of you.
This is about deconstructive of policies and join us to
do that, and a collective responsibility to fix things that
we're created by policy. Right you know, we're we're having
(25:40):
a conversation right now. I think about what it means
to love America, and I wonder if you could take
us back to what it must have felt like at
a time when when many would, I think, question the
patriotism of anyone who is not on board with where
the Bush administration was at the time, to be the
owned vote against the authorization for the Use of force
(26:02):
after nine eleven, and then this year the bill to
repeal that very same authorization for military force passed with
two thirty six votes. And at the time, you didn't
say that that the United States shouldn't have any kind
of option for a military response. But we said was
in granting these overly broad powers, the Congress failed its
(26:25):
responsibility to understand the dimensions of its declaration. And I
was thinking about how in two thousand one, I'm not
sure I could have guessed that I would have wound
up serving in Afghanistan thirteen years later, But I certainly
could not have guessed that almost twenty years later, our
country would be debating still how to get out of
(26:46):
that conflict, and that that very authorization that you were
the loan vote against in two thousand one would pass
by a House majority. In more than anything, I wonder
what watching that twenty year ark of change has done
for your view of how change happens and how people
shift in their perspective. And I wonder, as we think
(27:08):
about how twenty years from now might be different, or
even how ten years from now might be different from now,
what lessons do you think that has to teach us
about how change happens. Well, the ark of justice maybe long,
but it been it been towards justice. Uh, this is
a marathon we're in. I mean, this is our lap
of the race, and we have to run it with
(27:30):
Vigger because we have to hopefully pass the time right
And that's how I view it, and so I knew
it then, but that was set in the stage for
perpetual war. It was sixty words and all it did
was give any president and I've dealt with Barack Obama
around this, you know, every president that's been there. It
was a blane check to use force in perpetuity without
(27:51):
coming to Congress. And that's what has happened. I mean,
it was hard because of the moment. I mean, my
cheapest staff is because it was Wanda Green and like
ninety three coming into the capital. I'm sitting at the
Capitol and Antivacward, So believe you me, it was it
was heavy duty. And the people who died and who
now are ill and have disabilities as a result of that,
(28:13):
that's what stays on my mind, you know. So that
was the hard part. People suffering and dying as a
result of these terrible attacks. And for me, you know,
as a person of faith, I had to say my
prayers and just do it and stand. You know, there's
a Scripture and Ethesians that you just stand. I mean,
I'm paraphrase, and when all hell breaks out around you
and you put on the full armor of God and
(28:34):
you just stand. Well, that's what I had to do.
And I knew one of these days if I kept
being persistent. My dad was in the military. First person
called me said that was the right boat. Do not
send our troops in harm Way unless you know what
the egg you're doing, what the eggs and strategy where
they're going. I mean, if you read that sixty word authorization,
it was so broad's crazy. In fact, one of the
(28:56):
reasons that repeal was so important was because it seemed
that same authorization could be interpreted to allow for war
against Iran as well. Yeah, and let me tell it's
been used in bout nineteen countries. It's been used everywhere
in the world. It's been used for even domestics spying
in our own country. So it's overly broad. We got
to get it off the books. So it was really
hard because I had to have security. You talked about
(29:17):
being called a trader, you know, I said, I thought
peace was patriotic first of all, and then secondly, it
was scary to me to see how many people came
out with the tax trying to kill me. And I
mean it was it was awful. Really there were threats
on your life at the time. Oh yeah, I had
to have security twenty four seven, even flying back and
forth at my house in California here in d C.
(29:39):
And some people have been prosecuted, and I mean it
was bad. And and so the thing is, the right
to decent is central to our democracy. Whether you agree
or not, people have that right and should if they
think their government is not doing the right thing. But
to me, when I saw and there were sixty thousand
emails and their Mills College now and phone calls and letters.
(30:01):
So I have the archive if anyone wants to see
if you can go to Mills. But you know what,
on the other hand, there was so many like the
bishop too too, and Coretta Scott King, people from all
around the world who sent me notes and told me
that was the right vote, that they stood with me,
just don't back down. And so that was on the
other hand, so many people whose names who I will
(30:23):
never meet. And then another woman in my well, she
was right outside of my district. She wrote me a
letter and she said, you know, I hated you. I
was one of those that called you all kinds of names,
and boom boom, boom, and she said, look, it's not
a lot, but I'm sitting you a check for fifteen dollars.
She said, because now I understand it. I have kids,
and this has been going on for twenty years, and
(30:45):
this under you know. So she just went on and
then that's right. And so if those kind of moments
really warmed my heart because I know people now really
get it and understand you just have to stand and
just wait and be strong and be solid in your
position constitutionally, I knew I was right. It was just
that we're all, you know, everybody want to be unified
(31:08):
with George Bush to retaliate right away. I mean, it
was like, take a moment. This was three days after
the country was in mourning. And I'm a psychiatric social
work of by profession psychology one on one that you
don't make these hard decisions when you're grieving. I mean,
come on, So you know I had to pull from
every bit of my being to be able to do
(31:31):
that and stand and debate whoever came up to me
to try to criticize about that. So you could say
the nation's grieving now it is grieving over police killings,
grieving of course over the mounting death toll of COVID nineteen.
And yet we also have decisions that have to be
made soon. What do you think is important for the
moral compass of the country right now that we're making
(31:54):
decisions that you know, in my view, are probably going
to decide what the rest of this decade and maybe
the rest of this century looks like. Yeah, the one
thing you do is focus on voting, registering people to vote,
beat back all the voter suppression that is taking place,
and organize and mobilized to get people to post. We
have to do that. Everybody can be part of this
transformation and getting rid of this occupant of the White
(32:16):
House that has to happen. This white supremacy agenda has
been promoted by Steve Bannon and Steve Miller and Gorka.
They're living up to the white supremacist agenda and people
have to understand that. And so one thing they can
do right now, in the midst of our grieving and
anger and so many people say they are exhausted behind
(32:37):
this is please vote, Please organized, Please don't let people
stay at home. If they can vote, absolutely stay at home.
But I mean, we've got to get our voting systems
such where the choice is there to even vote in
a safe place with the proper health protocols are voted
at home. Don't let this selection go by. That's the
one thing I'm encouraging and urging people to do to
(32:57):
regain the soul of this country. We've got to do there.
And then there's one more question that I wanted to
put to you. That's it's about the subject of trust.
I've been thinking about trust. I've been writing about trust,
and certainly the democratic process depends on trusting that we
can make change. You've spoken about the incredible faith, in particular,
that black activists have had in the capacity of this
(33:18):
system we live in, in the country that we live in,
to change. I'm wondering at a moment when Americans more
than ever say they don't trust the government to do
the right thing, when Americans don't necessarily trust each other
to do the right thing, and yet we are going
to need a level of trust in each other and
in our ability to get things done with good government
(33:38):
if we want any chance of dealing with these issues
that confront our country. What do you think are the
most important things that make it possible for people to
trust each other and for that social and political trust
to grow. And is there any advice that you have
for those who are maybe a little skeptical of whether
the inside, so to speak, the process, the political process
is really a place to make change. I'm one of
(34:00):
those persons who have a hard time with trust, and
so I'm glad you're writing about it. And I always
have because so often people you know, you, you go
into relationships or into activities based on trust, and they'll
blow it every time. And I get to the point where,
oh boy, I'm not gonna trust this. So trust is
extremely important on a personal level, and I struggle with that.
(34:22):
And everyone will tell you I don't get too close
because of that trust factor. So we've got to get
through that though, because we don't have to agree with
each other. But you have to be honest, and I
think honesty is key in developing trust. And that's why,
going back to my commission, truth is truth telling time.
You gotta be truthful to people. And at the government level,
(34:45):
all of what Trump does, I don't trust, you know,
in terms of what's gonna happen to people. And for
people who don't trust their government, I mean, look at
Contell Row. I was part of that FBI JM or
Hoover vamping on black activists. I mean, you shouldn't see
my file? Is this thing? Go and tell pro the
the FBI files that were built up around black actors YEA,
to cause confusion with black groups, cause people to kill
(35:08):
each other, have FBI agents posing as party members. I
mean it was awful. I see that possibility now. So
I don't trust this Department of Justice, you know, so
I have to watch what they're doing. They have this
unit called Black Extremists activists or something. We're there and
we've met with them many times, and it's scary what
I know about what they're doing, and we're trying to
(35:29):
stop that. But I don't trust the Department address And
so skepticism is good because there's so many things that
are going on that aren't honest, and so you have
to get in there and work hard to change those
institutions to build that trust. Otherwise you're gonna keep distrusting.
And you may have good reason to distrust your government
(35:51):
because under this administration especially, they're doing bad things. So
get in their vote, let's change it. And that's how
we do that. And now's our chance right now like
never before. It is the decisions that are so this
is a hard time for everybody, but let's take this
time and use it in a way to bring people
together and to talk about ideas and how we move
(36:14):
forward in this country. And I think we should seize
the moment. Just by way of conclusion, if if a
little girl is born in a hospital in El Paso today,
if we get this right, what's the biggest way her
life will be different from ours. What we have to
make sure of for her to live a better life. Yeah,
we have to make sure that girls have equal opportunity
to every part of the society and to the world's
(36:37):
blessings and benefits. We have to make sure that girls
are treated equally because I don't want any little girl
to have to go through what I went through. And
so for little girls, I want to make sure that
the playing field not only is leveled, but that they
are able to soar. And that's our job is to
create a life in a world where they cancel, where
(36:59):
they have access to technology and to engineering, and to
map into everything that this world in this country offers them.
And right now they don't, especially if you're poor and
if you're a person of color, you don't have those
opportunities because the system is rigged and it's stacked against you.
Because I want the system to be such that it
supports little girls who are born today to be who
(37:21):
they want to be. That was such a powerful conversation.
I hope you found Congresswoman Barbara Lee as captivating as
I did learning about her story from growing up in
segregated El Paso to leading in the United States Congress.
She spent a lifetime facing issues that are newly central
(37:41):
to how America is thinking about our future, and her
idea for a truth commission here in the United States
is one I think we're going to be talking about
and hearing about more and more in the months and
years to come. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
visit the art Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(38:02):
listen to your favorite shows. H
Hi, I'm Pete Buda Edge, and this is the deciding decade.
Throughout this summer, we've seen a reckoning about how to
face one of our country's deepest, harshest truths, how pervasive
racism has dominated so much of our past and continues
to shape so much of our present. We've seen George
(00:25):
Floyd murdered, Jacob Blake shot, Brianna Taylor robbed of her life.
We've seen communities of color disproportionately impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.
America is staring at our reality of discrimination and bias
directly in the face, and has past time for all
of us, especially white Americans, to address it. So where
do we go from here? The answer, of course, is complicated,
(00:49):
But my guest today talks about how we need, really
for the first time in this country, to take a
step back and examine the effects that slavery, institutional racism,
and discrimination have had Black Americans and still have on
our country's laws and policies. We need to do this
as a way to heal and as a catalyst for progress.
I draw a lot of hope from the thought of
(01:11):
what could happen if we were to do this together
over the decade ahead, with the leadership of people like
my guests today. Congresswoman Barbara Lee is a progressive leader
and a path breaking individual who has made an enormous
difference in the United States Congress and in the progressive movement,
continuing to speak to issues that are going to shape
our time. She's been an effective public servant who has
(01:34):
led on a number of issues and is not afraid
to take an unpopular position. In fact, she was the
only member of Congress to vote against the authorization of
military force after the September eleventh attacks. She's also one
of America's most distinctive voices on racial justice and equity.
Some of the answers were searching for right this moment
have to do with challenges she's been speaking to for
(01:55):
a long time. How do we face our deepest, harshest truths,
How do we heal? How can we move forward together?
Congress Womanly, thanks so much for joining us, and what
I know is a busy time. Well, yeah, no, I'm
really happy to be with you. Is nice seeing you again.
In time, I learned how to pronounce your last name right.
(02:18):
That's right, doesn't roll off the time quite likely but
you got it just right. Thanks for joining us, But
I missed you on that stage. I thought you did
great well. Thank you. Can't wait to hear what you have.
Thank you. It almost feels like another lifetime ago, doesn't it?
Just just earlier this calendar year when we were all
running for president. Who could have guessed how the stage?
(02:38):
Yea and November is the turning point I think. I
think either we go forward and we go backwards in
this country on all issues. This is a defining moment
I think for the United States. I think so too.
We have to recognize that. I think that's right. And
part of what we're doing in this podcast is a
series of conversations about exactly that, not just what do
(02:59):
we need to do in this moment, but how does
this moment shape the years that are coming ahead? And
and that's one of the reasons why I was so
eager to talk to you, because your career, your activism,
and your your legislation has I think, always taken that
long view into account and it's something I'm really eager
to explore. But before we get into politics and policy, Uh,
(03:21):
something else I wanted to ask you about. You were
born in El Paso, Texas. Yeah, very curious about what
El Paso was like during your childhood. Oh boy, Well,
first of all, I love El Paso, and the more
I go there as an adult, the more I really
recognize the beauty of the people, uh, the grit and
the toughness of the people, and the fact that we
(03:44):
had so many challenges um as African America's quick story.
My mother was born in El Paso. My grandfather and
his father were born in Galveston, Texas, and that was
where two years later we learned that we were read
as slaves, right, and that was yeah, and that's June tenth.
(04:04):
And so El Paso, my grandfather migrated to. He thought
he was achieve a better opportunity there. He had finished
college and he became the first black letter carrier in
El Paso, Texas, and he spoke fluent Spanish. So that's
why I'm so committed to the postal service, you know,
and and reserving the US Postal Service as a public entity, because,
(04:27):
in addition to how important it is for the country
in a general sense, it was the primary means to
the middle class for African Americans. And so we lived
in El Paso, Texas, with my grandfather and grandmother, my mother,
and my dad who was in the military. So my
mother had met him because she was working at Fort Bliss,
the first African American woman to work there. Yeah, she
(04:50):
was one of the first twelve students to integrate the
University of Texas at El Paso. But I gotta tell
you about when I was born, and this left a
mark on me that I will never forg get and
really describes why I fight for justice and for women's health.
She went out to the hospital she needed a C section.
They wouldn't admit her because she was black, my grandmother.
(05:11):
And again going back to the Confederacy that you know,
black women were raped by the heads of households. So
my great grandmother had been raped by the guy she
worked for. And so out of that came two girls,
my grandmother and my great out. They looked like they
were white, and so for my grandmother that she had
to demand that my mother get in the hospital because
(05:32):
she said that was her daughter. And they looked at
my mother, and they looked at my grandmother. They couldn't
quite figure it out. So they thought my grandmother was white.
So they led her in and she needed a c section,
but they left her in the hall on a guerney,
and my mother became unconscious and she almost died. No
one attended to her at all. Nobody. Finally someone came
up and saw that she was delirious and really needed attention,
(05:55):
and they didn't know what to do. They could not
do a c section then it was just too dangerous,
and so they took her into the emergency room and
they barely got me here because they had to use
force ups to deliver me. My mother almost died and
I almost didn't get here. So that kind of tends
you the story. So when we talked about years later,
we talked about this maternal mortality gap that is clearly
(06:18):
a consequence of systemic racism. This is not theoretical, for
you know, it's there's nothing new, but it's a shame
and disgrace that we have gone back to the reports
to show twenty five years to where we were. So no,
this is not new to me. Then That's why when
we decided to form our Black Maternal Health Caucus, I
immediately joined because my life almost was taken from me,
(06:41):
or I almost was not granted life, and that was
because my mother was black. And because I was black.
But my mother and grandfather and dad decided that they
weren't going to participate in anything that was segregated anymore.
So they sent us to Catholic school. So the Catholic
school was integrated and the public school was not. Yeah, yeah,
but integrated men two black students, me and my So
I want to ask you also about what I think
(07:03):
was a formative experience must have been working on Shirley
Chisholm's campaign for president. I think many of us are
aware that she was the first black woman to run
for president, but in researching for this podcast, I was
not aware that she was the first black candidate for
a major party, man or a woman, and the first woman,
black or white or otherwise to run for president as
(07:25):
a Democrat. Yeah. I look back on that campaign, Shirley
Chishen now context. I was a student at Mills College
and All Women's College in Oakland, California, and I had
a class in government, and we had a class assignment
to work in a political campaign. Then it was mc
govern Humphrey Muskie, and I told my teacher flunk me,
(07:45):
Dr brand Mullins, I'll never forget, I said, I've never
flunked a class before, but flunk me. I said, these
guys don't reflect any of the issues, and they don't
stand for anything that I care about or believe in.
For me, as a young black woman on wealth. They're
raising two single kids. That's right, because you were You
were a single mother while attending college at Milton. I
was a single mother. Yeah, but I was also president
(08:08):
of the Black student union at the same time. I
invited Congresswoman Chisholm, as the first African American woman he
elected to Congress, to come speak to the student union.
I had no idea she was running for president. Uh
And so after she spoke, I met her and talked
with her big Afro James T shirt, two little kids,
and she spoke fluent Spanish. She talked about in lubod rights,
(08:30):
she talked about reducing an eliminating poverty. She was against
the Vietnam War, she was an educator, talked about childcare.
Every issue that I cared about she talked about in
her speech. And I went up to her later and
I said, Ms. Chisholm, you know I have this class
I'm about to flunk, and you know I'm supposed to
wearing in campaign, maybe I'll reconsider. So she took me
to task, and she said to me, and she always
(08:52):
called me even til her last month of life, on
this little girl, you have got to get on the
inside and shake things up if you believe in what
you're pushing and saying. She said, you kind of registered
a vote. I said, in no way, I don't believe.
Just like many young people now, I do not believe
in this two party system because the Democrats haven't done anything,
and the Republicans say, why should I be party to
(09:14):
that craziness? That's irrelevant? So what about that? You know?
Right now a lot of advocates and activists are in
the street protesting systemic racism, responding to police violence, and
I've seen that tension that I think a lot of
us are saying that, you know, this is exactly why
we need to vote, And a lot of advocates and
activists are saying this isn't just about elections, which is
of course true, but I think sometimes frustrated or impatient
(09:37):
with the idea that this has to lead to a
political process. How do you reconcile those things? It sounds
like it's not a new conversation from your perspective, it's
not I see me and them. I mean, because I
was exactly there and it was really passing this class.
I mean, I loved her and here as a black
woman running for president, and I gotta do something. So
I went back and she told me the registered to vote.
(09:58):
You've got to help me. I said, well, who called?
How do I get involved? She said, I don't have
a lot of national money and my local organizers and
leave it near doing something. So I went back to
the class, I contacted the friends and we ended up
organizing the Shirley Chisholm presidential Northern California primary out of
my class at Mills College. I got it A in
the class, and I went on to Miami as a
(10:20):
Shirley Chisholm delegated and we took about eight percent of
the vote and allow me to cap. And Shirley Chisholm
became a close friend and I traveled with her. I
didn't work for her formerly, but I was one of
her key Northern California fundraisers and volunteers and I got
to know her really well. And then I went on
to work for my beloved Rod del and I got
(10:41):
a chance to be with Shirley Chisholm in here in Washington,
d C. While working for Ron and I saw how
she had to fight, like as a black woman, just
to get on the rules committee. They put her on
the Agriculture Committee, and she wanted to get on labor age.
So she made a heck of a lot out of
egg for urban gardens, you know, and for food security
and all and nutrition. So I saw her take racism
(11:04):
and sexism and turn it around and make it into
something she wanted. And like she told me, she says,
you can't go along to get along if you're a
black woman. And she said, and you've got to get
in and and not go along with these rules. She said,
they weren't made for you. You gotta go in and
change the rules of the game and shake things up.
And that's what she did. Every step of the way.
She pushed back. I mean, you had every member of
(11:26):
Congress on her saying she was crazy, saying why is
she really doing this, She's pushing the envelope. She's not
a team player. She's and she was very independent. I mean,
I remember when she went down to see George Wallace
when he was shot in the hospital, and I was
so upset, I said, I'm gonna leave this campaign. You know,
the segregationist. Wait a minute. She went to visit George Wallace,
the set who campaigned on in the hospital. Oh yeah,
(11:49):
this is a story I've never really told too many
people except Peggy Wallace Kennedy is a Democrat, and we
become close friends. When Shirley and Shirley took me to
task about that, she said, Burbon, She said, he's gonna
be paralyzed. You've got to show some humanity. He is
a segregation but you never know, you might be able
to change someone's heart. She said, So get off it.
(12:10):
I mean, she really and I was ready to leave
the campaign. She went down and saw George Wallace. Last year,
Peggy Wallace Kennedy, when I was in Alabama with John
Lewis told me, she says, Bourbon. I was there with
Daddy when Shirley Chisholm came to visit him, and I
want you to know she was the one that convinced
him to apologize. Now a little too late, and so
(12:34):
she said later she was able he was able to
call some Southern I won't call him what they are
guys and get them to vote for certain issues that
Shirley Chisholm was champion and that was all because of
that one visit, and you know that gives me home.
(13:04):
You know, a very important part of many faith traditions
is this idea of redemption, this idea of version, this
idea that it's never too late and you can't give
up on anybody. Um do you think that idea is
harder to make good on now, especially for progressives or
anybody confronting what we're up against as a country, the
climate of of hate, the resurgence of different forms of
(13:26):
white nationalism, and and the awareness that you know, many
things that never went away in the first place, fighting
some of the same fights that were fought fifty years ago.
What has that done to your level of faith in
the possibility of redemption and conversion and change. Listen, I
believe in redemption and conversion and change. But I also
believe that white supremacy is driving this white House and
(13:50):
this government and white nationalism. And so if we don't
deal with it, I'll talk about my commission, the Truth,
Racial Healing and Transformation. If if I don't believe even
in in that, I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
You know, I get tired of and a lot of
my colleagues get tired of telling life folks what to
do now. But I think when you look at systemic racism,
(14:11):
this is the moment to make sure people understand that
COVID nineteen is not disproportionately impacting Black people. It just
didn't happen. Health disparities have always been here. Uh, it
didn't just happen that African American men and women are
disproportionately killed and murdered by police officers. It's always been here.
It didn't just happen that the wealth gap, in the
(14:32):
wage gap, and the lack of affordable housing and unequal education,
all of that is connected to slavery to pour into
one years ago. Forty countries after atrocities, human rights atrocities,
after genocides, they all have a truth and sometimes reconciliations,
sometimes truth. We're calling ours a racial healing and transformation,
(14:53):
because there's nothing to reconcile in this country. Yeah, I
wanted to ask you about this. So one of the
best examples are one of the best known examples for
the kind of process you're describing, is famously the truth
and Reconciliation Commission that came together in South Africa responding
to the Carteide. But you've pointed out that this word
reconciliation doesn't apply in the same way here, and I'd
(15:14):
love to ask you to unpack that a little bit
and explain what why is reconciliation not the right word
for what needs to happen or what needs to happen,
especially with regard to the black perspective. Well, because what
is there to when you have reconciliation? You have to
have a process that bore I won't say compromise, but
consensus coming together both sides have a valid point. There's
(15:34):
no valid point to slavery, and there's no valid point
to systemic racism. And the general side of the Native Americans,
what's the counterpoint is that what do you reconcile when
land was stolen from Native people? What do you reconcile
when two fifty years of slavery of Africans on this
kind of there's nothing to reconcile. So we decided that
(15:55):
once we have this truth telling moment in a public way,
because we know don't have a body the historical context
for systemic racism, then uh, it's a day of reckoning
we have to have in this country like other countries have.
And then you cleanse, you looked towards some form of
process of healing. Then you look at the policies, programs,
(16:16):
funding priorities, systems in the private and public sector that
perpetuate systemic racism, and you transform those out of the
core and their DNA being systemic racism to one of justice.
And I look at everything at a racial length. Is
this gonna perpetuate systemic racism or is it gonna help
this manet? Well, the rest of the country and elected
(16:38):
officials have to start doing that. They have to start
looking at their boats, okay, and they have to know
what systemic racism is. Listen. I come from a very
progressive community Berkeley and Oakland, and my friends and constituents
called me up after they saw images of black people
dying of COVID disproportionately and didn't quite understand it. How
can this be? That? S a man, don't you know
(16:59):
what's the stomach racism is? But I thought we had
dealt with all the lots and said, wait a minute,
wait a minute, we have not dealt with four one
years ago. Very few people were taught about the history
of slavery. What happened? Okay, and and Marpy. You then
have lynch ging, you have a system of lynching, you
have a sense of Jim Crow, you have the Black Code,
(17:20):
you have segregation. Do you know it wasn't until nineteen
when black people could buy a house and if they
were discriminated against, they had no recourse until fair housing
laws will pass. This is recent. This is and I
rec this is not about a far off historical story.
This is something that's living with us. Yeah, so these
are chains of slavery that have to be broken. You
(17:41):
mentioned follow up, and I think this is so important
because it's such a powerful model. But uh, there was
an article by Sisson came Simon on some of the
shortcomings of the South African experience. I just want to
read you a couple of the things that the author said,
because I think they raised this question of how do
you make sure we actually get to where we need
to get. One of the comments in the article is
(18:01):
twenty three years after the transition to democracy. The author
right's the wider systemic racial and economic inequalities that have
kept most black South Africans poor while preserving the wealth
and privileged most white South Africans enjoyed under apartheid remain
firmly in place. The article also went on to say
a genuine truth and reconciliation process, Again that's the vocabulary
(18:23):
they use for the South Africa Commission. Genuine process would
have aimed to address not just serious human rights violations,
but also the socio economic effects of apartheime. So what
does it mean. How do these two things fit together.
The conversation about some kind of truth and healing process
and the conversation about whether we call it reparations proactive
(18:46):
economic change? How do those things fit together? And do
we have to go through the truth process before we
can get to the reckoning process. You absolutely have to
go through the truth talent process. Otherwise you're tinkering around
the edges when you set piles season and make decisions
for people and you oftentimes it's subconscious that they end
up being very racist decisions. So you have to have
(19:08):
the truth telling. Some people know when they're aware of
what they're doing, especially those in leadership, but at the
community level, you know they've been thirty five of these.
Dr Gail Christopher has been doing this with the Kellogg
Foundation for years and it's really powerful. And what we
have to do is make sure that whatever comes out
of it reparations, Yes, addressing how you repair the damage
(19:31):
in terms of, say, for instance, homeownership, how do you
do that. There's some catch upping we gotta do. You
can't write. How do you address equal education for for
African American black and brown students. Well, there's a lot
we have to do to shatter the unequal education barriers
and the systems and build a new educational SYSM. No
(19:52):
one says it can be done overnight. We've got to
start somewhere. And so I think if there's buy in,
and that's why the commission has to be a tight commision,
and that's gonna listen to people from all around the
country and what happened to their ancestors, Why were they
not able to ever purchase a home? What was with
the barriers, what it wasn't in the HUD regulations or
(20:13):
the the banking rules that kept them from acquiring Well, okay,
and so we start deconstructing all of that. And you
can only do that by telling the truth and not
cover it up. And so we have to learn from
South Africa. We have to learn. They've been forty some countries,
some of them have been very soon, and so we
have to look at Rwanda. We have to look at
(20:34):
a lot of what has taken place within the context
of this country and do our own thing here because
you have so many violations of human rights that are
still with us UH and and black people that still
we ride. I mean, we're still out there fighting, you
know too, for the soul of this country, and that
it's not only for African Americans, it's for you. It's
(20:56):
for everybody to reckon with what unfortunately saw with the
murder of Muster Floyd. Everybody's got to reckon with that.
I want to ask you about that idea of everybody,
because I think part of what I've been reflecting on
a lot of somebody's a political figure who's white, who
thinks of myself as progressive, is I think there's a
lot of us who are involved in in the different systems,
(21:18):
whether it's in a role in government or in the
economy or some other way. Think of racism is something
that is over there that there are some people the
George Wallace's right, the kind of nakedly, openly racist people
that we see that's where all the racism is. And
it makes it a lot easier for anybody else who
(21:40):
is white to say, well, obviously I'm against that, and
I'm against them, and they have to change. But it's
very easy to to skip over why I have to change.
And so I wonder as somebody who's from a progressive
district who engages with a lot of well intentioned white
progressives who probably started calling you more than usual after
(22:01):
the murder of George Floyd, who are trying to be
part of the solution, but have maybe up until now
thought of racism as something that could only be part
of the heart of an altogether bad person. What thoughts
do you have on the right way to come to
terms with how even very progressive people who would say
we totest racism are still mixed up in it have
(22:23):
inhaled it precisely because it is, as you said, systemic. Yeah,
a lot of white people don't really understand it. And
I my district is very progressive, and and I've worked
with progressive organizations, and and I I am a progressive
African American woman. Racial equity is never seen as an issue,
(22:44):
and I have to beat the drum every time I'm
in these meetings of white progressives talking about economic inequality,
I said, well, you gotta add racial inequality. I mean,
I beat the drum on that in the Progressive Caucus.
And you know, I've had to do that for twenty
one years, and beginning it's beginning to have to resonate.
You know, we have to all do that. And that's
why this commission going back to that, forming them even
(23:05):
at local levels before the national when it's put into place.
It's so important because you've got to deconstruct this stuff.
White supremacy is embedded in everything. And look at gentrification, no,
you know, I mean people engaged in in displacement. You know,
good people. They may not think what they're doing is
is racist, but it is because it's disproportionately impacting African
(23:26):
Americans and people of color. People who are saying, oh,
you gotta go to s b A and have a
relationship with SBA before you can come to this bank
to get a loan to get your p p P
by systemic racism, because black people don't have those relationships
with SPA, nor with the bank, and so come on,
these are most liberal people sometimes saying, why can't you
(23:47):
get that loan? And you know what I mean, so
you have to pull out. I can give you chapter
in verse of how this economic system is filled with
barrier and good people don't even recognize it. So out
I'm dealing with trying to get these Confederate statutes out
of the capital, and a lot of my colleagues don't
even know that these Confederate leaders were trying to preserve slavery,
(24:11):
committing acts of treason and didn't want to see my
ancestors free. They don't even know that. I have to explain.
I mean members of black hocosol know, but we have
to deconstruct this with people. And as a veteran, I've
been marveling at the process of many people thinking for
the first time about the fact that military installations are
(24:32):
named after men who took up arms against the United
States trainers, I mean, people who fought against the United States, right,
and you know, being from a military family, what what
that means? So how many people know that? So I'm
saying we have to It's a massive and you can
help tremendously in your community throughout the country with people
(24:52):
who don't quite get it. They need to understand this
and how deep it goes and how it's reflected is
nothing personal. You know. I always try to say, don't
don't take this as I'm calling you a racist. Understand
that slavery was a government sanctioned institution. It's the government policies. Yeah,
probably your ancestors were involved in some of that, but
(25:12):
that's not about us trying to get anything out of you.
This is about deconstructive of policies and join us to
do that, and a collective responsibility to fix things that
we're created by policy. Right you know, we're we're having
(25:40):
a conversation right now. I think about what it means
to love America, and I wonder if you could take
us back to what it must have felt like at
a time when when many would, I think, question the
patriotism of anyone who is not on board with where
the Bush administration was at the time, to be the
owned vote against the authorization for the Use of force
(26:02):
after nine eleven, and then this year the bill to
repeal that very same authorization for military force passed with
two thirty six votes. And at the time, you didn't
say that that the United States shouldn't have any kind
of option for a military response. But we said was
in granting these overly broad powers, the Congress failed its
(26:25):
responsibility to understand the dimensions of its declaration. And I
was thinking about how in two thousand one, I'm not
sure I could have guessed that I would have wound
up serving in Afghanistan thirteen years later, But I certainly
could not have guessed that almost twenty years later, our
country would be debating still how to get out of
(26:46):
that conflict, and that that very authorization that you were
the loan vote against in two thousand one would pass
by a House majority. In more than anything, I wonder
what watching that twenty year ark of change has done
for your view of how change happens and how people
shift in their perspective. And I wonder, as we think
(27:08):
about how twenty years from now might be different, or
even how ten years from now might be different from now,
what lessons do you think that has to teach us
about how change happens. Well, the ark of justice maybe long,
but it been it been towards justice. Uh, this is
a marathon we're in. I mean, this is our lap
of the race, and we have to run it with
(27:30):
Vigger because we have to hopefully pass the time right
And that's how I view it, and so I knew
it then, but that was set in the stage for
perpetual war. It was sixty words and all it did
was give any president and I've dealt with Barack Obama
around this, you know, every president that's been there. It
was a blane check to use force in perpetuity without
(27:51):
coming to Congress. And that's what has happened. I mean,
it was hard because of the moment. I mean, my
cheapest staff is because it was Wanda Green and like
ninety three coming into the capital. I'm sitting at the
Capitol and Antivacward, So believe you me, it was it
was heavy duty. And the people who died and who
now are ill and have disabilities as a result of that,
(28:13):
that's what stays on my mind, you know. So that
was the hard part. People suffering and dying as a
result of these terrible attacks. And for me, you know,
as a person of faith, I had to say my
prayers and just do it and stand. You know, there's
a Scripture and Ethesians that you just stand. I mean,
I'm paraphrase, and when all hell breaks out around you
and you put on the full armor of God and
(28:34):
you just stand. Well, that's what I had to do.
And I knew one of these days if I kept
being persistent. My dad was in the military. First person
called me said that was the right boat. Do not
send our troops in harm Way unless you know what
the egg you're doing, what the eggs and strategy where
they're going. I mean, if you read that sixty word authorization,
it was so broad's crazy. In fact, one of the
(28:56):
reasons that repeal was so important was because it seemed
that same authorization could be interpreted to allow for war
against Iran as well. Yeah, and let me tell it's
been used in bout nineteen countries. It's been used everywhere
in the world. It's been used for even domestics spying
in our own country. So it's overly broad. We got
to get it off the books. So it was really
hard because I had to have security. You talked about
(29:17):
being called a trader, you know, I said, I thought
peace was patriotic first of all, and then secondly, it
was scary to me to see how many people came
out with the tax trying to kill me. And I
mean it was it was awful. Really there were threats
on your life at the time. Oh yeah, I had
to have security twenty four seven, even flying back and
forth at my house in California here in d C.
(29:39):
And some people have been prosecuted, and I mean it
was bad. And and so the thing is, the right
to decent is central to our democracy. Whether you agree
or not, people have that right and should if they
think their government is not doing the right thing. But
to me, when I saw and there were sixty thousand
emails and their Mills College now and phone calls and letters.
(30:01):
So I have the archive if anyone wants to see
if you can go to Mills. But you know what,
on the other hand, there was so many like the
bishop too too, and Coretta Scott King, people from all
around the world who sent me notes and told me
that was the right vote, that they stood with me,
just don't back down. And so that was on the
other hand, so many people whose names who I will
(30:23):
never meet. And then another woman in my well, she
was right outside of my district. She wrote me a
letter and she said, you know, I hated you. I
was one of those that called you all kinds of names,
and boom boom, boom, and she said, look, it's not
a lot, but I'm sitting you a check for fifteen dollars.
She said, because now I understand it. I have kids,
and this has been going on for twenty years, and
(30:45):
this under you know. So she just went on and
then that's right. And so if those kind of moments
really warmed my heart because I know people now really
get it and understand you just have to stand and
just wait and be strong and be solid in your
position constitutionally, I knew I was right. It was just
that we're all, you know, everybody want to be unified
(31:08):
with George Bush to retaliate right away. I mean, it
was like, take a moment. This was three days after
the country was in mourning. And I'm a psychiatric social
work of by profession psychology one on one that you
don't make these hard decisions when you're grieving. I mean,
come on, So you know I had to pull from
every bit of my being to be able to do
(31:31):
that and stand and debate whoever came up to me
to try to criticize about that. So you could say
the nation's grieving now it is grieving over police killings,
grieving of course over the mounting death toll of COVID nineteen.
And yet we also have decisions that have to be
made soon. What do you think is important for the
moral compass of the country right now that we're making
(31:54):
decisions that you know, in my view, are probably going
to decide what the rest of this decade and maybe
the rest of this century looks like. Yeah, the one
thing you do is focus on voting, registering people to vote,
beat back all the voter suppression that is taking place,
and organize and mobilized to get people to post. We
have to do that. Everybody can be part of this
transformation and getting rid of this occupant of the White
(32:16):
House that has to happen. This white supremacy agenda has
been promoted by Steve Bannon and Steve Miller and Gorka.
They're living up to the white supremacist agenda and people
have to understand that. And so one thing they can
do right now, in the midst of our grieving and
anger and so many people say they are exhausted behind
(32:37):
this is please vote, Please organized, Please don't let people
stay at home. If they can vote, absolutely stay at home.
But I mean, we've got to get our voting systems
such where the choice is there to even vote in
a safe place with the proper health protocols are voted
at home. Don't let this selection go by. That's the
one thing I'm encouraging and urging people to do to
(32:57):
regain the soul of this country. We've got to do there.
And then there's one more question that I wanted to
put to you. That's it's about the subject of trust.
I've been thinking about trust. I've been writing about trust,
and certainly the democratic process depends on trusting that we
can make change. You've spoken about the incredible faith, in particular,
that black activists have had in the capacity of this
(33:18):
system we live in, in the country that we live in,
to change. I'm wondering at a moment when Americans more
than ever say they don't trust the government to do
the right thing, when Americans don't necessarily trust each other
to do the right thing, and yet we are going
to need a level of trust in each other and
in our ability to get things done with good government
(33:38):
if we want any chance of dealing with these issues
that confront our country. What do you think are the
most important things that make it possible for people to
trust each other and for that social and political trust
to grow. And is there any advice that you have
for those who are maybe a little skeptical of whether
the inside, so to speak, the process, the political process
is really a place to make change. I'm one of
(34:00):
those persons who have a hard time with trust, and
so I'm glad you're writing about it. And I always
have because so often people you know, you, you go
into relationships or into activities based on trust, and they'll
blow it every time. And I get to the point where,
oh boy, I'm not gonna trust this. So trust is
extremely important on a personal level, and I struggle with that.
(34:22):
And everyone will tell you I don't get too close
because of that trust factor. So we've got to get
through that though, because we don't have to agree with
each other. But you have to be honest, and I
think honesty is key in developing trust. And that's why,
going back to my commission, truth is truth telling time.
You gotta be truthful to people. And at the government level,
(34:45):
all of what Trump does, I don't trust, you know,
in terms of what's gonna happen to people. And for
people who don't trust their government, I mean, look at
Contell Row. I was part of that FBI JM or
Hoover vamping on black activists. I mean, you shouldn't see
my file? Is this thing? Go and tell pro the
the FBI files that were built up around black actors YEA,
to cause confusion with black groups, cause people to kill
(35:08):
each other, have FBI agents posing as party members. I
mean it was awful. I see that possibility now. So
I don't trust this Department of Justice, you know, so
I have to watch what they're doing. They have this
unit called Black Extremists activists or something. We're there and
we've met with them many times, and it's scary what
I know about what they're doing, and we're trying to
(35:29):
stop that. But I don't trust the Department address And
so skepticism is good because there's so many things that
are going on that aren't honest, and so you have
to get in there and work hard to change those
institutions to build that trust. Otherwise you're gonna keep distrusting.
And you may have good reason to distrust your government
(35:51):
because under this administration especially, they're doing bad things. So
get in their vote, let's change it. And that's how
we do that. And now's our chance right now like
never before. It is the decisions that are so this
is a hard time for everybody, but let's take this
time and use it in a way to bring people
together and to talk about ideas and how we move
(36:14):
forward in this country. And I think we should seize
the moment. Just by way of conclusion, if if a
little girl is born in a hospital in El Paso today,
if we get this right, what's the biggest way her
life will be different from ours. What we have to
make sure of for her to live a better life. Yeah,
we have to make sure that girls have equal opportunity
to every part of the society and to the world's
(36:37):
blessings and benefits. We have to make sure that girls
are treated equally because I don't want any little girl
to have to go through what I went through. And
so for little girls, I want to make sure that
the playing field not only is leveled, but that they
are able to soar. And that's our job is to
create a life in a world where they cancel, where
(36:59):
they have access to technology and to engineering, and to
map into everything that this world in this country offers them.
And right now they don't, especially if you're poor and
if you're a person of color, you don't have those
opportunities because the system is rigged and it's stacked against you.
Because I want the system to be such that it
supports little girls who are born today to be who
(37:21):
they want to be. That was such a powerful conversation.
I hope you found Congresswoman Barbara Lee as captivating as
I did learning about her story from growing up in
segregated El Paso to leading in the United States Congress.
She spent a lifetime facing issues that are newly central
(37:41):
to how America is thinking about our future, and her
idea for a truth commission here in the United States
is one I think we're going to be talking about
and hearing about more and more in the months and
years to come. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
visit the art Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(38:02):
listen to your favorite shows. H
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